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Stop the New FISA
Allowing the new surveillance law to stand would seriously cripple our free press.
If the sweeping surveillance law signed by President Bush on Thursday -- giving the U.S. government nearly unchecked authority to eavesdrop on the phone calls and e-mails of innocent Americans -- is allowed to stand, we will have eroded one of the most important bulwarks to a free press and an open society.
The new FISA Amendments Act nearly eviscerates oversight of government surveillance. It allows the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to review only general procedures for spying rather than individual warrants. The court will not be told specifics about who will be wiretapped, which means the law provides woefully inadequate safeguards to protect innocent people whose communications are caught up in the government's dragnet surveillance program.
The law, passed under the guise of national security, ostensibly targets people outside the country. There is no question, however, that it will ensnare many communications between Americans and those overseas. Those communications can be stored indefinitely and disseminated, not just to the U.S. government but to other governments.
This law will cripple the work of those of us who as reporters communicate regularly with people overseas, especially those in the Middle East. It will intimidate dissidents, human rights activists and courageous officials who seek to expose the lies of our government or governments allied with ours. It will hang like the sword of Damocles over all who dare to defy the official versions of events. It leaves open the possibility of retribution and invites the potential for abuse by those whose concern is not with national security but with the consolidation of their own power.
I have joined an ACLU lawsuit challenging the new law along with other journalists, human rights organizations and defense attorneys who also rely on confidentiality to do their work. I have joined not only because this law takes aim at my work but because I believe it signals a serious erosion of safeguards that make possible our democratic state. Laws and their just application are the only protection we have as citizens. Once the law is changed to permit the impermissible, we have no recourse with which to fight back.
I spent nearly 20 years as a foreign correspondent for the New York Times, as well as other news organizations. I covered the conflict in the Middle East for seven years. I have friends and colleagues in Jerusalem, Gaza, Cairo, Damascus, Tehran, Baghdad and Beirut. I could easily be one of those innocent Americans who are spied on under the government's new surveillance authority.
The reach of such surveillance has already hampered my work. I was once told about a showdown between a U.S. warship and the Iranian navy that had the potential to escalate into a military conflict. I contacted someone who was on the ship at the time of the alleged incident and who reportedly had photos. His first question was whether my phone and e-mails were being monitored.
What could I say? How could I know? I offered to travel to see him but, frightened of retribution, he refused. I do not know if the man's story is true. I only know that the fear of surveillance made it impossible for me to determine its veracity. Under this law, all those who hold information that could embarrass and expose the lies of those in power will have similar fears. Confidentiality, and the understanding that as a reporter I will honor this confidentiality, permits a free press to function. Take it away and a free press withers and dies.
I know the cost of terrorism and the consequences of war. I have investigated Al Qaeda's operation in Europe and have covered numerous conflicts. The monitoring of suspected terrorists, with proper oversight, is a crucial part of our national security. But this law is not about keeping us safe, which can -- and should -- be done in a constitutional manner and with judicial oversight. It is about using terrorism as a pretext to permit wholesale spying and to silence voices that will allow us to maintain an open society.
Chris Hedges was part of the team of New York Times reporters who won a Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for reporting on global terrorism. He is the author of many books, including "War Is the Force that Gives Us Meaning."
Copyright 2008 Los Angeles Times

93 Comments so far
Show All"wholesale spying and to silence voices that will allow us to maintain an open society." Enough already! The media is under vast pressure from there owners to do there bidding, sell products, and not rock the corporate boat. The 4th estate is their to inform and protect us from the powers that be, not to be their megaphone. The criminal enterprise in DC must be exposed! Let your congressperson know that they will not have your vote until they correct the massive mess they have made. Go Green! Lefty.
I fully support the ACLU lawsuit against the new FISA bill, which represents still another assault on our civil liberties by the Bush administration. It is beyond disappointing that Sen. Barack Obama has cast his vote in support of this insidious measure. As a former constitutional law professor, he should have taken a principled stand against any infringement on our freedoms.
I, for one, appreciate the real journalism
of Chris Hedges and Naomi Klein, and agree with The Nation that their efforts are imperiled by such ill-conceived legislation.
David Ratliff
Hey Chris,
How come some intrepid Congressperson doesnt come out and say the obvious: "Mr. President, another reason we dont want such a law is because we think unscrupulous people such as yourself will use it against political rivals or people in the government - Congresspeople - who oppose their drive for absolute executive power, and who would also use it for blackmail."
Tell me Chris - why hasnt ONE reporter ever said this on a cable news program? BTW, liked your book on christian fascism - it's a story I have been following since the book "Holy Terror" published in the early 1980's.
This article makes a good point. Even if YOU have nothing to hide, the value of the constitutional protections being violated here is that journalists, academics and others need them in order to provide you with the information you need as a citizen.
And, as another article by Matthew Rothschild further down points out, this new law approves of things like your landlord helping the police break into your flat, without a probable cause or a warrant. I think it is worth repeating.
-Check out Title VIII: "Protection of Persons Assisting the Government." A "person" is defined as "an electronic communication service provider" or "a landlord, custodian, or other person who may be authorized or required to furnish assistance. . . ." Note how wide open is the category of "other person."
-And "assistance" is defined as "the provision of, or the provision of access to, information (including communication contents, communications records, or other information relation to a customer or communication), facilities, or another form of assistance." Notice how wide open is the category of "another form of assistance."
Too bad this comes too late for Nixon's "plumbers". For a glimpse of your future, check out what journalists and democracy activists use in China; Its called Gpass. It anonamyzes and encrypts internet communication. They use it to get around the "golden shield" firewall being built for the Chinese government by Cisco Systems.
This is all part of the Orwellian Powers That Be laying the groundwork to locate and silence all dissenters should dissent ever begin to become effective. It sets a precedent. It confers upon the self-styled commanders in chief authority to declare who is a "threat" and do something about it.
That's us if we ever find a way to become effective.
Impeach or recall all those that voted for or did not stop this tyranical travesty.
Don't know about a 'recall', but in a few months we have the ability to replace the entire House of Representatives and 1/3rd of the Senate and also to elect a new President. We can choose not to support the corporate parties who keep doing this to us and we can choose to elect new representatives from Independent campaigns or '3rd parties' that would not sell off our rights like this.
The key is to STOP VOTING DEMOCRAT!
People who 'have nothing to hide' have long put their letters into sealed envelopes.
yet another poignant piece by Mr. Hedges! this new law is a tyranical travesty indeed! VOTE THIRD PARTY! LETS GET CINDY SHEEHAN ELECTED INTO CONGRESS!
The Nation is funny in their article. They emphasize blaming Bush for all of this, and manage to never mention the word "Democrats'. No surprise, The Nation always becomes an organ of the Democratic Party during election cycles. And this is typical Democrat bull, trying to blame Bush for policies that the Democrats are equally responsible for.
I love the idea of electing Cindy to Congrees. But remember that by herself she's just 1 of 435. What we need is Greens or Independents or even Libertarians elected from ALL of the districts. So, who's running in your area?
Samson wrote:
"The Nation is funny in their article. They emphasize blaming Bush for all of this, and manage to never mention the word "Democrats'. No surprise, The Nation always becomes an organ of the Democratic Party during election cycles. And this is typical Democrat bull, trying to blame Bush for policies that the Democrats are equally responsible for."
Hear hear!!!
Nader used a metaphor describing Katrina as a cow with a ring in her nose: she can be lead anywhere...
Maybe it is time for a revolution. According to John Locke's principals, that our founding fathers based our country on, we are there. Please read this site and all that is said. A man of the enlightenment and a man for the power of the individual and not government.
http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Philosophy/Locke.htm#Extent
http://www.iep.utm.edu/l/locke-po.htm
After this horrible FISA passage, it is time for the people to read the founding fathers basis for their philosophy.
Samson July 11th, 2008 1:49 pm: "The key is to STOP VOTING DEMOCRAT!"
It amazes me that this needs to be said.
Quality posts lately, Samson, by the way. Can I put a question out there to you or anyone who dares?
I hear numbers tossed around: "approval rate of congress – 9%, approval rate of president – 30 %, (I'm just making up numbers here, I'm not sure what the real ones are). And yet…and yet, the vast majority of the low number of Americans who vote will vote for a republican or a democrat. To me, it's like Americans treat their affiliation with one of these parties as they would a membership in a religious denomination ex: "we've always voted republican", "my parents were lifelong democrats". Do you see what I'm driving at?
On mainstream media, other parties get no play so is there any way to judge how close or how far America is from multiparty democracy and is there any movement in either direction?
For now, all we can do is increase the voting percentages of dissent for alternative parties. Habitual voting for the two mainstream parties is really difficult to disengage in. I started in 1996 and haven't voted for any Democrats since 2000 - in ALL elections! The place to start is in disengaging from all mainsteam media outlets. We have to be brave enough to say: "I'm not putting up with this horrible system anymore -I will ONLY vote for alternative parties" - to everyone who will listen (even those who won't!)
Vote strategically. Greens and Progressive Dems. But anyone here that would put McCain/Bush/Repugs back into power is either a shill, a masochist or an idiot.
criticalthinktank,
It is my guess that part of the reason the new FISA bill was passed was to stop a revolution. Bush's handlers know a depression is likely and that great turmoil will follow. That is why they are determined to put into place new devices to spy on the citizens and new technologies for crowd control (note the CD article yesterday about stink bombs -- "US Weapons Research Smells Like Hypocrisy"). They are putting up their defenses, and they are making them formidable, because they expect many or even most of us to be really upset. That can't be good.
Yes, the way to stop Republicans is to NOT VOTE DEMOCRAT! Stay home, or write in Kermit the Frog! Light a candle and wave a magic wand and make the Green Fairy appear and become president! You're not clapping hard enough! You have to wish harder!
Ignore all those people who say that 19% of the vote is as good as 0%, or that third parties have never ever ever done more than that or that without the other 32% the Republicans win. That's just Lesseroftwoevilism (tm) and you can't let that get in the way! It doesn't matter if Republicans know that votes for Green candidates elect Red ones, and that they even give money and support to Greens to help split the left wing vote. Ignore all that! Don't look behind the curtain! Democrats are the enemy! They don't do a good enough job stopping Republicans, so we have to make sure less Democrats get into office by taking votes away from them, don't you see? When Greens and Democrats lose elections, just because the Republicans win doesn't mean we should stop. This is a crusade, a mission! Our march away from the levers of power and into irrelevance can not be stopped by a few practical-minded realpolitik promoters!
Oh, don't forget, while you're sabotaging elections for Democrats, to get rid of all your guns and encourage all your left wing friends to do the same! You don't need them, all you'll do with them is defend yourself or intimidate tyrannical forces, who wants to do that? Remember, we must be as weak, fractured and contentious as possible! WE CAN DO IT!
I think I will continue supporting the Democrats. Both my Senators, Murray and Cantwell, voted against this atrocity.
Have any FISA jusdges resigned over this travesty?
Oh, I forgot ...
They all have mortgages, kids' tuition bills, and home equity loans to pay.
They can't afford to make any waves.
Or ... umm ... defend the Constitution.
This argument over whether or not to vote for Democrats is truly silly. I'd venture a guess that 90 percent of those who post here are unequivocally AGAINST the war in Iraq, IN FAVOR OF single-payer national health care (don't even utter the word "ins------"), and DISGUSTED with the corporate domination of our politics, media, economy and culture. How could anyone with those views even consider voting for a Democrat? Even Sherrod Brown, the great progressive hope of 2006, has given in to the panic of his constituents.
There is, however, a candidate who steadfastly supports these views. Vote for Ralph Nader for President. He will be on the ballot in 45 states in November, including the key swing states where he was illegally denied ballot access in 2004. And if you think that's hyperbole, check www.votenader.org to read about the indictments handed down in Pennsylvania today, against Democratic officials who misused staff and public money to sabotage his 2004 ballot access drive.
With 45 ballot lines, Ralph Nader is easily electable. Don't buy the Democrats' "Spoiler" excuse. They've given away two presidential elections in the past eight years, and have the unbelievable chutzpa to blame Ralph ... if you let them get away with it, then you deserve the fate you're foisting on the rest of us.
Get some guts.
Demand that Google/YouTube include him in their September debate. Boycott the corrupt Commission on Presidential Debates (wholly owned by the DNC and RNC) and their mainstream-media-staged excuse for presidential debates.
Vote Nader. Vote Independent. Vote Green. Be Progressive. Reject the Democrats.
It is nobody else's business, the government included, what I say or do in my home or in private telephone conversations. The spying on me indicates an accusation. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights rightly assumes that I am innocent and requires some evidence before I am accused.
The kind of people who think everybody is committing crimes and breaking laws are paranoid or guilty due to their own activities.
RichM---extremely well said. I am getting sick and tired of the same old same old from the Dems apologists. It's like watching the vitriole unleashed against Ralph Nader in An Unreasonable Man, over and over. It makes me physically ill these days. My party right or wrong!!! That is what their mantra is. UGH!!!!
David Holmquist, can you please give more information on how we can go about demanding that Google/YouTube include Nader in the September debate? Thanks in advance!! (:
I bid a job with an out of state company that wanted to email me a file to burn onto a memory stick to operate a CNC robotic machine and make their part out here in the country. When they found out that all I had for an internet hook up was Verizon DSL they canceled the job. They would not send proprietary software knowing that Verizon has already been splitting off information and giving it to the gov. Just as easily they can steal your software or other information and sell it. This law prevents me or you from suing should you find someone else making your product with your software.
I guess only the rich can get to compete globally.Obama for voting for this you can kiss my ass along with your democratic buddies.
Obama's slide from 'Harbinger of Hope' to 'scumbag du jour' was breathtakingly fast. I think anybody who votes for Obama after this is delusional if they think he'll be anything other than a trained seal for the power elite. Man, I am depressed. Thanks fer nuthin', Obama. Heckuva job.
want to do something about it? send money to Cindy Sheehan, or just send a note of encouragement, and send the party hacks a message.
cindyforcongress.com
Fourth Amendment gone. Just Two and Ten. Handguns and a mob, justifiable removal of the current renter's @ 1600.
I do so hate guns, though. I know hunter's that are REAL Hunters, they use the entire, screaming aloud, animal. I still hate it all. Where my stupid ass house is with right wing Fucks that are cowards and slash tires while in Europe because my bumper stickers don't comply with their rhetoric, except 2 homes where they are okay. Please someone buy this, I need to leave this country, NOW.
My Senator, Casey Jr., GD imbecile, responds to my last email re;FISA. He is going on how no this is true, that isn't. I'm only used to receiving auto-generated emails from that putz. When I called to fire him, I told the intern that Mr. Robert Casey, Jr. was wrong and should actually read the text of the bill before he votes. Of course they'll be able to still tap my phone, SEC.703. and SEC.704 of TITLE VII. re;spying on US citizens in and outside of the US. Daughter and husband left for our house in Turkey today for 7 weeks, I suppose I'll be hearing that cross-talk and odd beepy sounds again.
No one ever mentions the physical searches. TITLE I. SEC.7., so here we go with this, "What's that inside your car, house, person. Sorry gotta search 'ya." Fuck that. I need a new country, I don't want to live in Turkey 24/7 husband would be there at the same time, nuh-uh, France is cool, I like Dusseldorf. I don't know, Namaste?
`
The worst terrorist threatening the world is George Bush, and this only enables his activities - let's lose this FISA thing fast, guys; our president is killing us and the Constitution by inches.
jlocke123,
The last information I reviewed, the Congress had a "confidence" rating of 9% and an overall "approval" rating of 14%. Either way, these are the lowest ratings in the history of Congressional polls (I believe 36 years), and arguably the lowest in Congressional history.
The most accurate reading I could get on the Village-Idiot-In-Chief was a 27% (taking an average of all of the polls)approval rating. Some polls indicated 30% but I talked to some colleagues and we all seem to agree that statistic is unrealistic. The lowest I saw was 24%. Either way Shrub is in Nixon territory.
Phone everyone you know who is in a foreign country on a regular basis.
RichM:
Can you give me a list of the accomplishments made by Green Party Representatives and Senators? The bills vetoed or signed into law by President Nader?
Oh, wait, there aren't any. They do not and can not win elections in this rigged system. Get your head out of your ass. Anyone with the slightest shred of political knowledge knows as an unequivocal FACT that under our voting system third parties ONLY split votes away from their nearest ideological rival, benefiting the party most opposed to them both. People who don't know this need to be hit upside the head with a civics textbook until they learn.
There will never be a Ralph Nader presidency. Do you understand that? You might as well write in my name, I have the same practical chance of winning, which is zero. It's just not going to happen. All the wishing and hoping and pretending in the world won't change that.
Don't believe me? Put your money where your mouth is. Let's make a bet, say, $1,000? $10,000? more? I bet that come December we will have a Democratic or a Republican President-Elect and that neither Ralph Nader nor a Green Party candidate will be anywhere near holding even a sizable minority let alone a functional power-wielding majority in Congress. In fact it's overwhelmingly likely they won't even have a minority of one. How much do you want to bet? Come on, you're not scared are you? You wouldn't be suggesting voting for them if you didn't think they'd win would you?
Come on, any amount of money you want to name, that Ralph Nader or a Green Party candidate will not be President. You're sure this strategy of yours will work, come on, back it up.
You really -do- believe they can win right? You're not just blowing smoke up our asses knowing that nothing will ever come of it, are you? You wouldn't do that to us... right?
Every Democrat who voted for this must be voted out of office. Beware of crypto-Republicans pretending to be Democrats when you consider their replacement. If they do the dodge and shuffle on impeachment, FISA, 9/11, then they are pretenders. Support only those who talk straight on these issues.
The best thing might be to let the Republicans stay in control. Even the right is losing faith in Republicans. A Democrat in power pursuing the same policies would just galvanize them against the Left and let the Republicans off the hook. When Left and Right unite against the elite, only then will change be possible. Instead, left and right fight each other, and the elites laugh all the way to the bank. Divide and rule is their game. Vote McCain (if for no other reason than the elite want Obama-follow the money for proof).
RichM July 11th, 2008 2:28 pm: "Every day we have indoctrinated fools here saying, "Well, since the only VIABLE candidates are Obama & McCain"
Yeah I see what you mean. kitty_tc is pretty much the typical response whenever I try to get Democratic or Republican supporters to tell me why they do what they do. I'd really like to hear a rationale that is at least internally consistent.
Claudius, thanks for the up to date numbers. Its odd seeing polls for measuring "confidence" in congress. In multiparty countries, we measure usually the popularity of the distinct parties. When one goes down, others of course go up and in an election if the ruling parties fall to the numbers you cited, they would be completely swept out of office. In America, inexplicably, no matter how low the incumbents fall in the polls, they remain where they are, with a trickle of new Democrats and Republicans replacing retirees or those kicked upstairs to the lobbying firms.
Bastille Day July 14
"We announce to the world the true principles of our actions. We wish an order of things where all low and cruel passions are enchained by the laws; all beneficent and generous feelings awakened; where distinctions arise only from equality itself; where the citizen is subject to the magistrate; the magistrate to the people, the people to justice. Where industry is an adornment to the liberty that ennobles it and commerce the source of public wealth, not simply of monstrous riches for a few families. We wish to substitute in our country morality for egoism, probity for a mere sense of honor, principle for habit, duty for etiquette, the empire of reason for the tyranny of custom, contempt for vice for contempt for misfortune; the grandeur of man for the triviality of grand society. We wish, in a word, to fulfill the course of nature, to absolve providence from the long reign of tyranny and crime."
Maximilien Robespierre
Stop it? Hah.
I would like to see a mass spam email go out from all corners of the globe using the probable key-words that would trip the capture and review of the communications. Imagine millions of messages clogging their net, all of them irrelevant verbal garbage -- just random words, half of them ones likely to be attention worthy. The other half benign words that they aren't looking for: "love", "peace", "compassion", "tolerance", "knowledge" etc. etc. Would that foul up their system? I don't know, but it could prove to be annoying.
Really? A lawsuit? Are you f**king kidding? Against the administration that ignores all laws, the Congress, the Supreme Court, and reality in general?
Good f**king luck. Meanwhile, start writing and speaking in code.
jlocke123,
You are welcome. The problem is even if the Congressional approval rating was 2% they would not care. Your process makes more sense, and I wish we could sweep both of these parties out of Congress, but unfortunately we are stuck with this system.
Lot of anger expressed here, rightfully so. Many blame the repugs, others blame the dems and some just want to opt out. The bitter truth is, this nation, under our elected representatives from both major parties has been led into fascism and it matters only so much who gets elected. Even though Obama voted for this tyrannical bill he still would be far better than McCain in command. Another 4 years of continued insanity is more than any of us can stand. If Obama is elected I believe many things in this country will begin to recover.
Contemplating the monumental problems bush has caused McCain would not have a clue where to start. If he can't bomb it he is lost! Obama is an exceedingly intelligent person, I'm not sure of his vision of where to take this country. I am quite sure of McCain and am totally against that.
racom40 July 11th, 2008 7:40 pm:
"Obama is an exceedingly intelligent person, I'm not sure of his vision of where to take this country."
This is honestly the best defence of Obama I have ever heard.
Obama is smart and that is a good thing. The trouble is with your follow up "not sure of his vision". That's the sticky bit isn't it?
If Obama is a smart person but he is against you, the multitude of Americans, and he's with the few thousand elite people that don't want single payer health care or an end to perpetual war, that's not so good.
Can you think of any American public figures who, as well as being intelligent, have consistently shown that they will fight for your interests? Now if only some of them were running for office…
jlocke:
Am I speaking Swahili here? Klingon? I have given you the rationale. It's called basic Civics. The system is rigged against third parties, period. The only way to change that is to alter the voting system, and you have to have a majority in power to do that. There's no such thing as a national ballot initiative, our system doesn't allow for that kind of direct democracy.
No one who advocates third party ascension has demonstrated how that's even possible, let alone a plan for getting there. They just say things like "it's the only way!" and flame people who don't go along with the non-plan.
I still don't see anyone taking me up on my bet.
JH,
I think you've hit on something. Suppose we all just put words like "bombing in America" and let's say we talk about "using terrorism in New York" or "can we get ahold of nuclear material" and see what floats to the top.
Is it time to "compromise" the system since they have been lying through their teeth for the past 8 years? I say they get back what they have dished out. These people have no compunction to play fair. Why should we?
Kitty,
The system is rigged. Correct. Which is all the more reason to vote outside the two parties. At my age I have always believed my vote needed to count. Now I see that nothing but the same status quo will be visited again and again by trying to use the system. This isn't about voting for a third party candidate to win. This is about teaching the American people a lesson.
At this point all of America deserves to suffer at the hands of either of these corporate shills. Americans have gotten fat, lazy and self absorbed. Only the rising price of gas has gotten them semi motivated and for that they want drilling.
This is as much about the American public wanting to continue an unsustainable way of life and both mainstream candidates are willing to lie to them to make them believe they can still have it. It's disgusting.
frank1569: You're even more correct than you think. I support the lawsuit as well, and am sending an extra donation to the ACLU, but all the suit will accomplish is a little consciousness-raising. The suit will be immediately rejected by the courts.
Why? Because nobody has standing to challenge the law. Only those who can prove they were harmed by the law have standing, and since nobody except the gumshoes and their bosses has access to wiretap information, nobody can prove they were harmed by the law.
Neat little Catch-22, don't you think?
Fear not, the only thing we have to fear ---- is who gets elected.
Obama will save us.
Obama will save us
Obamam will save us.
Sorry guys, I don't think the problem is the 2 party system per se, but rather the 1 president system. We should have 2 presidents, and 2 vice presidents, each set from the two parties getting the most popular votes. And then a 3rd set of Presidential Advisors from the 3rd place party. Nothing gets passed without agreement from both presidential sets, and without proof that the advisors provided advice (whether or not it was taken).
Mr. Chris Hedges, you don't seem to get it, either. The people running our government are psychopathic criminals.
The know they are above the law and special humans. Why in the world would they want to be "monitored" by a free press?
Its not the only warrantless phone taps Stupid.
Its 24/7 warrant less surveillance by community watch and law enforcement.
If I told that thousands of Americans have been subjected to Gang stalking torture all over this country over the last 5 years what would you say?????
Organized torture by community watch groups , IAFF, CIA, FBI.
What would you say?
The iceberg under the tip that the new immunity Fisa bill hides. What they don't want you too know.
Building the nations spy network, by introducing suspects in each community.
Gang Stalking slander techniques creates suspects, suspects creates community fear, fear creates larger community participation.
Terrorists suspects brings DHS money to the community.
Perverts, sex offenders and Terrorists, Oh MY!
Law enforcement and the International association of Firefighters are reaping major benefits from all this activity, Their power grows in each community.
Did you think Terrorist only use phones, they are Mobile.
You need a foot patrol surveillance army to follow these guys.
They follow targets 24/7, conduct noise campaigns and harassment campaigns, drive their suspects crazy all the while training their surveillance teams.
These are very sick twisted power freaks destroying Americans lives for the sake of growing their staffs and gaining power.
Torture, greed , power, ICEBURG !!!!!!
Gang Stalking is Torture.They destroy your life.
People in your community, bankers, church going folks , women , men, police, firefighters, lawyers , city employees, ambulance drivers, get the picture, they destroy your LIFE.
Torture, Nation wide.
Government sanctioned by the DHS. Google Markus Wolfe.Ex- East German Stasi Police chief hired by Homeland Security.
Do you think a guy like this gives a crap about the Constitution, or your religious freedoms.
We need to know who is ordering the warrantless taps and for what reason, and then sue the crap out of the bastards if they have no grounds for invading privacy.
NO Immunity.
Its not just Verizon ass I want, I want the power freaks pulling the strings to go to JAIL for providing information to torture freaks. And I want the torture freaks to go to JAIL.
Read and you will be enlightened.
BornFreeMem
The Republican shills here have convinced me. I'm voting for McCain. Mission accomplished! Now you can all go home.
RichM:
It's really hard to believe that in this day and age anyone can still trot out the old "no difference" canard. It's amazing to think that anyone can have witnessed the last 8 years of Republican dominance and still hold on to that delusion, but here you are in 2008 still pimping that lie. Unbelievable.
You haven't refuted a single argument I've made. Not one. Explain the difference, in practical terms, between a vote for a third party and a vote for mickey mouse, and how either of those is functionally different from a vote for Republicans. I'm still waiting for that answer.
While you're at it, you might want to answer whether or not you actually think that Nader, the Green party, or any third party is going to gain national office at any point in the forseeable future. And if you don't, what exactly is your plan? What is your goal?
From where I'm siting, it looks like your goal is elect Republicans. And if it's not, you certainly manage to do a good job of it anyhow.
Well, since kitty won't respond to your points Rich, I will try my best.
Since 2000, the Democrats have passed the authorization of military force against Iraq
They voted for the Patriot Act almost unanimously
They voted to renew the Patriot Act
They voted for the Military Commissions Act
They voted for every single Iraq War funding bill -- and even after getting control, continued to offer it
They have taken Impeachment off the Table, in direct violation of their constitutional oaths
They just voted FISA with retroactive immunity to the corporations
They voted to continue the WTO, twice
They have passed Free Trade Agreements with Peru, Oman, and others
I believe they confirmed some nasty appointments by the Criminal in Chief as well
This is off the top of my head, I am sure I could do better with research
And could Nader get elected? It is possible. Let him debate. Maybe he will, probably he won't. One thing is for sure, as long as the liberal intellectuals out there let the corporate media decide who is viable, the game is over.
Lets talk of Instant Run Off Voting, Proportional Representation -- that is my goal. Perhaps if the Dems NEED that stuff to get elected, (breaking their current monopoly), they may actually THINK about supporting it. However, we all know Democrats supporting advancements in democracy is a stretch.
If Dems were really concerned about 3rd parties spoiling the election, they would have made a push for IRV during their current power in congress. But they do not, because they know that would instantly make 3rd parties "viable". Then again, people like me still may not vote for a hawk and fraud of a constitutional scholar like Obama, with his racist Father's Day speech (Black fathers are actually better than white fathers at staying in touch with kids they are separated from), and his economic policies that mirror Republicans. The way to win my vote is not by running for "Bush's Third Term" (Wall Street Journal). For more, check out this nice piece of work..
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney07112008.html
Great comments. More and more people waking up to the fact that our two party system is broken and realizing their enemies are not on the other side of the aisle, but those that push those two cookie cutter candidates towards us during the primaries.