Yes, that make a lot of sense Bob, if you can't have Hilliar, you'll take Nader! Your a PUMA (Party Unity My Ass)Bob!

Hillary has a chance to win the nomination. Kucinich does not.

But, I tire of repeatedly pointing out basic facts to someone as dumb, dishonest or drunk as you.

If Hillary doesn't get the nomination, I'll be voting for Nader.

I leave it to the readers of this thread to determine which of us has the facts on his side, and which of us does not.

You never will get it Bob.
If you want to upset the applecart at the convention, you should at least be pushing a real progressive like Dennis Kucinich! But, no, your just another blind Hillary supporter, pissed off that she lost, and she DID LOSE Bob. Get out of your Hillary-bubble and rejoin the world, as it continues to turn and circle the sun, and it ain't going to back up for you, no matter how much you wish it would.

The Democrat's make their choice in Denver in August.

All progressives, moderates and other people of conscience should be asking their state's delegates to cast their votes for Hillary.

Hillary's legislative record and agenda is moderate-left, while Obama is an unprincipled Republican-in-Democrat's-clothing as I have DETAILED above (Bob K. July 12th, 2008 8:49 pm.) Obama's Constitution-trashing FISA vote and appointment of right-wing economist/WalMart-defender Jason Furman as his economic policy director are only the most recent examples.

And, you DO excuse Obama's right-wing votes. You should read your own posts.

MikeBinSC July 13th, 2008 1:00 am: "Many of the votes cast by ... politicians are nothing more than pandering triangulation, especially when theirs is not the deciding vote. I'M SURE THAT THIS IS THE CASE WITH OBAMA'S VOTE ON FISA. Get used to it, as it happens all the time."

You are just the same as those knuckle-draggers-for-Bush with their endless excuses for his abhorrent actions.

Bob, you don't get it, as I don't excuse either of them for their right-wing votes. The issue for me is not which of the two is less right-wing, as I told you in the beginning that I would vote for Hillary if she had won the primary. Neither of them are progressive, period.

Bob, you said - "But for Hillary, you won't excuse even one vote — her 2002 war authorization vote (77-23 in the Senate) — in these same terms (even though 9/11 happened in the state she represents)."

The problem with that is that Hillary has not asked to be forgiven for it, in fact she refuses to admit that it was a mistake, and she's doing it again regarding Iran!

If Hillary had won, she would be triangulating and posturing, just like Obama. Bob, the primary is OVER, give it up and support your party's choice or vote for someone else.

I get it. No straight answers. Constant changing of the goal posts. The perfect is the enemy of the good. They're-all-the-same defeatism.

For Obama, you excuse his consistent right-wing voting record with your rationale that "he has to appeal to knuckle-draggers," all politicians do it, "get used to it," and voting record is of little import.

But for Hillary, you won't excuse even one vote -- her 2002 war authorization vote (77-23 in the Senate) -- in these same terms (even though 9/11 happened in the state she represents).

For Obama, his centrist/right record and agenda is acceptable. For Hillary, her moderate-left record and agenda is unacceptable.

For Obama, corporate campaign contributions are acceptable. For Hillary, they're unacceptable.

Hillary voted for the Feingold-Reid Amendment requiring the safe redeployment of all U.S. combat troops from Iraq by June 30, 2008. Obama did not vote for Feingold-Reid. Hillary is co-sponsor of Bernie Sanders' legislation to prohibit the use of mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan. Obama opposes the bill. Hillary is the anti-occupation candidate. Obama is the pro-occupation candidate. Yet, you support Obama.

I get it.

Bob, if she were a progressive, she would demand a change to a single-payer health care system, but that isn't going to happen, is it?

Mike,

I wonder what measure you use to determine that "Hillary . . . and Obama are [both] centrist/right" if you are ignoring their voting records? As far as I know, there is no better measure than voting record.

I've contributed concrete facts. You've contributed your unsubstantiated opinions, which happen to be diametrically opposed to the facts.

Maybe you can at least tell me how you take the measure of politicians, if voting records don't matter to you.

Hillary and Bill and Obama are all centrist/right. All politicians use votes on bills that don't require their support for passage or blocking to improve their voting records, pull themselves more to the right or left depending on what their constituencies expect. Hillary, like all the rest, refuses to take a principaled stand and really fight for any truly progressive legislation. I was not talking about her appearance on Fox, as we need to speak to those not in agreement with us, I was speaking about Murdock fund-raising for her. She is all about continuing the corporate oligarcy that is destroying the country.

"Even on the basis of those selected 14 votes, you can not classify Hillary as progressive."

Why not? She voted the progressive way 10 out of 14 times, and these were the major issues of the day. Lobbyists poured millions of dollars into defeating the public interest on many of these issues, and Hillary stood firm on principle. Would she have to have voted the correct way on all 14 issues in order to win your approval? Even Kucinich can't meet that test.

"Many of the votes cast by both, and many other politicians, are nothing more than pandering triangulation . . ."

This is where you go wrong. When you are a Senator, votes are actions. Actions are what matter. Votes matter. Votes make laws. Laws are what count.

"Pandering" and "triangulation" refer to public opinion/campaign strategies. To use those terms regarding votes is nonsensical. For one reason, the people who would be influenced by pandering and triangulating strategies are rarely aware of how the legislator has voted. (For example, were you aware of how the candidates had voted on these 14 major issues before I brought it to your attention?)

Hillary is "sometimes left of Obama?" No, she is almost always left of Obama. You know who agrees with me the most on that? Obama himself. Witness his recent statement that he has been "tagged as being on the left," and has had to point out that his positions have been consistent [on the right].

Now to your one-word objections to Hillary.

NAFTA: Clinton administration insiders have revealed that as First Lady, Hillary opposed NAFTA. In the Senate, she voted to prevent future NAFTA-like trade deals. Obama voted to allow such deals. (See vote #5 above.) In her campaign for president she consistently said she would renegotiate NAFTA. Obama got caught pandering to Ohio voters when he made that same pledge while his senior economic adviser Austan Goolsbee was simultaneously assuring Canadian officials it was just campaign rhetoric. If renegotiating NAFTA is important to you, Hillary is your candidate.

Wal-Mart: I assume you are referring to the fact that 22 years ago, while her husband was Governor of Arkansas, Hillary was given an honorary position on the board of Arkansas' largest company. No one has ever suggested she made company policy, or even took part in directing such policies. She simply accepted the position. You live in a southern state, so I ask you: are the wives of southern Governors expected to embarrass their husbands by rejecting such positions, or by publicly opposing the policies of their state's largest employers?

Contrast Obama's RECENT support for Wal-Mart, just last year (2007). He supported a corrupt, pro-NAFTA city council candidate over a pro-labor candidate in a hotly debated fight over allowing Wal-Mart into Chicago, and he did so in the face of community opposition and university studies showing the net negative economic impact of Wal-Mart on communities. See: OBAMA'S FORGOTTEN WAL-MART ENDORSEMENT: PUTTING WORKERS SECOND AND GOING ALONG TO GET ELECTED by Paul Street; August 28, 2007

Then this year, Obama appointed Wal-Mart defender Jason Furman as his economic policy director.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/10/9534/

So again, if you oppose Wal-Mart's anti-labor policies, Hillary is your candidate.

Murdock/Fox: First you excuse Obama's actions as part of his 50-state campaign and desire to appeal to "the knuckle-draggers," and then you criticize Hillary for even SPEAKING TO the right-wing? Don't you see how hypocritical that is? Furthermore, I watched Hillary's appearance on FOX's O'Reilly Factor and she didn't pander at all; she made her points very well.

Iran terrorists: I don't know what that refers to.

McCain qualified: Again, I can only assume this refers to a statement that McCain meets some kind of experience threshold and Obama does not. I think that is a very obvious observation which no one can dispute. Hillary could have pointed out, but did not, that Obama has never in his lifetime even VISITED Europe. She could have pointed out, but did not, that his entire experience on the national level prior to his run for the presidency consists of just one year in the U.S. Senate.

Beyond that, I certainly believe that candidates are allowed to criticize their opponents' shortcomings. Compare what Obama did to Hillary. He actually smeared her. For example, after she said it takes more than words and hope to accomplish real political change, and gave the example of LBJ's critical role in turning MLK's dream into law -- which is a historical fact -- Obama went to MLK's former church in Atlanta and race-baited her. There's a true measure of the man's integrity. Disgusting.

Now, none of this is to suggest that Hillary is as progressive as Ralph Nader, who is also a candidate for president. I simply point out that she is far, far, far better than Obama.

BTW Bob, I've made a lot more comments on this subject on this thread -
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/10/10247/

Bob, even on the basis of those selected 14 votes, you can not classify Hillary as progressive. Dennis Kucinich is a progressive, Hillary - NOT! And worst of all, she seems to have learned nothing since her vote authorizing Bush to use force in Iraq.

As I told you before Bob, I would have voted for Clinton if she had won in the primaries. I argued against both Obama and Clinton in favor of candidates expressing more progressive ideas. It was not until the primaries were over, that with great reluctance, I decided to vote for Obama to help unify the party and hopefully put an end to this Neo-Fascist nightmare that Bush and the Republican enablers, with the help of some Democrats, have forced on the American people.

Many of the votes cast by both, and many other politicians, are nothing more than pandering triangulation, especially when theirs is not the deciding vote. I'm sure that this is the case with Obama's vote on FISA. Get used to it, as it happens all the time.

I know he picked up some red-state supporters with that vote, as I live in one of the deepest red states, and I know how the knuckle-draggers think. The real problem here is that he may have traded away more support than he picked up - A bad political miscalculation.

Obama is following a fifty-state strategy because many previously predictable red states are now in play, like Georgia and other southern states, especially those with large percentages of black voters. Many other states, not in the south, are also on the verge of shifting from red to blue.

I hope we can just agree to disagree, but you will never convince me that Clinton (either of them) are actually progressive. To the left of Bush and McCain? - Sure. Sometimes left of Obama? - OK. Truly progressive? - NO WAY!
NAFTA? Wal-Mart? Murdock/Fox? Iran terrorists? McCain qualified?

For anyone who is not too blindly prejudiced to read and understand:

Hillary is progressive, and the proof is her Senate voting record. She is certainly not perfectly progressive, but for a major-party candidate she is amazingly progressive.

Below is a comparison of Hillary's, Obama's and McCain's votes on 14 of the most important and revealing issues arising between January 2005 and the present (while all three have been Senators).

Hillary voted the progressive way on 10 of the 14 votes, Obama did so on just 4 of the 14, and McCain on just one of the 14. (NV means "not voting.")

(1) Confirmation of Condoleeza Rice to be Secretary of State
Vote taken: 1/26/2005
Analysis: Neo-con, war criminal
Clinton: Yes
Obama: Yes
McCain: Yes

(2) Tort "reform" (Class Action Fairness Act of 2005)
Vote taken: 2/10/2005
Analysis: Opposed by more than 68 consumer, civil rights, environmental and labor groups, it was described as the "final [Republican] payback to the tobacco, asbestos, oil and chemical industries, at the expense of ordinary families whose health has been compromised."
Clinton: No
Obama: Yes
McCain: Yes

(3) Dayton Amendment (S.Amdt. 31) to the 2005 Bankruptcy Act
Vote taken: 3/3/2005
Analysis: Would cap credit card interest rates at 30%. Senator Dayton provided examples of predatory lenders charging vulnerable people more than 1000%/year interest. Republicans argued that "free-markets" should set interest rates, and government should not interfere.
Clinton: Yes
Obama: No
McCain: No

(4) Energy Policy Act of 2005
Vote taken: 7/29/2005
Analysis: A corporate-welfare bill called "bad policy" by Public Citizen because it gives "billions of dollars in unjustified subsidies to the fossil fuel and nuclear energy industries," rolls back environmental regulations for the oil and gas industry, and "repeals the Public Utility Holding Company Act (PUHCA), an essential consumer protection that ensures that electric utilities exist to serve the people, not the profit interests of large corporations."
Clinton: No
Obama: Yes
McCain: No

(5) Dorgan Amendment (S.Amdt. 1665) to the 2005 Commerce Appropriations Bill
Vote taken: 9/15/2005
Analysis: Would prevent future NAFTA-like trade deals that allow "dumping" of products into the U.S. at prices below their cost of acquisition (harming U.S. farmers, ranchers, businesses and workers), by prohibiting the Commerce Department from weakening current countervailing duties and antidumping laws.
Clinton: Yes
Obama: No
McCain: No

(6) Confirmation of John Roberts to the Supreme Court
Vote taken: 9/29/2005
Analysis: Hard right-winger
Clinton: No
Obama: No
McCain: Yes

(7) Confirmation of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court
Vote taken: 1/31/2006
Analysis: Hard right-winger
Clinton: No
Obama: No
McCain: Yes

(8) USA PATRIOT Act Reauthorization
Vote taken: 3/1/2006
Analysis: Allows the government to spy on citizens in "fishing expeditions" without probable cause or a court order, including listening to telephone calls, intercepting emails, accessing private medical records, library records and bank records, and searching homes and businesses without permission or knowledge.
Clinton: Yes
Obama: Yes
McCain: Yes

(9) Nomination of Dirk Kempthorne to be Secretary of the Interior
Vote taken: 5/26/2006
Analysis: Hard right-winger who received an overall score of zero from the League of Conservation Voters during his six years in the Senate.
Clinton:No
Obama:Yes
McCain:Yes
(Hillary and just seven other Democrats voted to block Kempthorne's nomination.)

(10) Feinstein Amendment (S.Amdt. 4882) to the 2007 Department of Defense Appropriations Act
Vote taken: 9/06/2006
Analysis: Outlaws use of cluster bombs in most cases, in order to protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions.
Clinton: No
Obama: Yes
McCain: No

(11) Iraq withdrawal timeline goal (2007 Supplemental Appropriations Act)
Vote taken: 3/29/2007
Analysis: Provides that, "The President shall commence the phased redeployment of United States forces from Iraq not later than 120 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, with the goal of redeploying, by March 31, 2008, all United States combat forces from Iraq."
Clinton: Yes
Obama: Yes
McCain: No

(12) Kyl-Lieberman resolution on Iran
Vote taken: 9/26/2007
Analysis: Tantamount to a declaration of war (Sen. James Webb, former Secretary of the Navy).
Clinton: Yes
Obama: NV
McCain: NV

(13) Feingold-Reid Amendment (S.Amdt. 3164) to the 2008 Department of Defense Appropriations Act
Vote taken: 10/3/2007
Analysis: Requires the President to safely redeploy all U.S. troops from Iraq by June 30, 2008, except for those needed for al Qaeda operations, security and training.
Clinton: Yes
Obama: NV
McCain: No

(14) Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) amendment (H.R. 6304)
Vote taken: 7/9/2008
Analysis: Legalizes warrantless wiretapping of, and spying on, Americans by the federal government in violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. Covers up and excuses more than 30 felony crimes committed by President Bush when he authorized the illegal wiretaps. Provides retroactive immunity to lawbreaking telecom companies and terminates all pending lawsuits against them.
Clinton: No
Obama: Yes
McCain: NV

Furthermore, HIllary is co-sponsor of S. 2398, Senator Bernard Sanders' legislation to prohibit the use of Blackwater, DynCorp, Triple Canopy and other mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Obama opposes the bill, and would continue using mercenaries.) Hillary has also taken the lead on vote-count fraud, first introducing the Count Every Vote Act (CEVA) -- which People For the American Way "enthusiastically supports" -- in 2005, and reintroducing it every year since, even though it has never gotten out of committee.

By the way, saying that "Hillary has talked about obliterating Iran" is unconscionable fear-mongering. In truth, she simply stated the long-standing United States policy of deterrence. Simply put, ANY nation that chooses to use nuclear weapons will be the subject of massive retaliation. This "deters" aggressors from using nuclear weapons. The U.S. and Russia call it Mutually Assured Destruction. It's a policy that has successfully prevented the use of nuclear weapons for more than sixty years.

But, we all know these boring facts from 8th-grade history class. Right?

Hillary voted for to give Bush war power and has never thought, to this day, that it was wrong. Hillary has talked about obliterating Iran. Hillary promoted McCain over Obama in the primary, saying that only McCain and she were qualified to be president. There are many other things as well, but suffice to say HILLARY IS NO PROGRESSIVE, period!
And she is owned by deeper pockets in the MIMIC(Military-Industrial-Media-Infotainment-Complex), including Rupert and Fox, than any other candidate.

Please take your "Hillary is progressive" bullshit to someone else who wants to hear it, as I surely DO NOT! Hillary is progressive, like Bill was progressive, like Obama is progressive. They are all centrist/right.

So you want to replace it with a nightmare of Republican-in-Democrat's-clothing, Neo-Fascist domination?

Thanks a lot for trying to slap a Democrat label on the same old crap.

Hillary Clinton's voting record in the Senate is no "illusion." Why do you keep peddling that BS? Senate.gov has the voting records. Have you ever looked at the records?

I'm willing to bet you would flunk a test of how Hillary and Obama have voted in the Senate these past 3 1/2 years. Any honest person who can pass such a test would not be peddling the Hillary-is-worse-than-Obama crap. Based on actions, not rhetoric, she is far, far better than Obama. In fact, Obama has very little in his voting record that is at all progressive. His voting record is closer to McCain than to Hillary.

We had a progressive candidate (Hillary) with the broad appeal and support to actually WIN the presidency. Amazing! But, badly informed, lazy, stupid and/or dishonest "progressives" echoed the Republican/corporate-media swiftboat campaign and helped to sink her chances with lies, manipulations, race-baiting and hate speech. Disgusting.

Those people should stop offering their opinions and start offering their apologies.

No Bob K, I never suffered under the illusion that Obama was a progressive, nor did I suffer under the illusion that YOU have about Hillary being progressive. Neither were my choice in the primaries, as I knew where both of them were coming from. But, the primaries are over now, and we have what we have, end of story. Your calls for pushing Clinton at the convention are devisive and weakening to progressives trying to end this eight-year national nightmare of Republican, Neo-Fascist domination.

D A R I U S _ Q _ P A Q U E T T E,

Perhaps the manner of "taking" our country back is not as you've imagined ?

Perhaps it is a spiritual quest and transformation, that is needed to clarify what we really want of our lives and each other ?

As long as we continually focus our attention ( and intention ) upon the "WHAT IS", the more inertia we establish that we must eventually reverse.

The most powerful act that ALL of us can accomplish, requires no blood, sweat, or armaments. As we are essentially spiritual HUMAN BE'ings living a physical existence, are focus is increasingly being drawn inward, as our outward lives crumble, deteriorate, and provide less satisfactory existence."WHAT IS _ T O __ B E __",

I have a set of references to other postings about this that can be found _here_

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

It's time to take our country back from these pieces of shits, time to fight and rid our country of all who don't defend our constitution.they need to be in prison not in office.

Russ Feingold on Democracy Now could not answer the question of why Democrats went along with this.

Just sent a check for $19.84 to Cindy (and another for more).

MikeBinSC,

Your comments have no substance. You have no specifics, no facts, just hate speech.

Hillary's voting record has been consistently progressive -- not perfectly progressive, but consistently and surprisingly progressive. Her vote against the FISA amendment was typical and predictable. Obama's vote for the bill was also typical and predicatable -- for him, based on his voting record.

You say Hillary is the "bigger corporate whore." That is completely false. Her voting record is second only to Kucinich in it's liberalism. Her voting record is certainly to the left of John Edwards' voting record.

People like you, repeating and spreading this ignorance and hate, are responsible for bringing the real corporate whore to prominence: Obama. You bought the corporate media spin, you bought Obama's campaign lies, you didn't do your homework, and now you're surprised and disappointed in Obama.

If you want to blame someone, look in the mirror.

Bob K, I'm sorry if that last comment was a bit harsh, and it was. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, I am just so fucking tired of having the choice of "no choice", given to us by the MIMIC (Military-Industrial-Media-Infotainment-Complex). I would have voted for Hillary if she had been the nominee, and she has already done more to piss me off than Obama has, including his dumb-ass FISA vote. It's no wonder to me that so many voters are apathetic, but that's the way the power-brokers want it.

Bob K, please don't try to feed us any Hillary Bullshit about her vote. Hillary is a bigger corporate whore than Obama or any of the rest. Her vote was more typical Clinton Triangulation, pure fucking politics! If she had been the nominee, her and Obama's votes would most likely be reversed, along with many others who made an easy vote with no consequences, but refused to really fight against the FISA bill. So, stop with the Clinton would have been a better choice bullshit, all the better choices left the race a long time ago!

Hillary cannot be trusted. If she was really against this bill then why didn't she speak up with Feingold?

Please, she's as corrupt as Obama. Neither of them deserve our vote.

I just joined the ACLU. I gave them a donation that I would have given to Obama.

I'm done with the Democrats. This is the last sellout I can stomach. I just mailed the DNC their donation request with $0 and an explanation of why.

The Dems and Repubs are both beholden to corporate interests. The people are just used as ATM machines.

Obama was a damn liar in the primary. He never intended to stop the FISA bill. What a disgrace.

This is just too much. Obama deserves to lose. He sold out on our constitution. The Obama apologists are a disgrace as well.

FrankS: "I thank those Senators who voted to overturn the bill. I regret that none of you are running for the Presidency."

To Frank and others here: Hillary Clinton voted against this bill.

How about calling your super-delegates and urging them to vote for her at the convention?

I joined the Greens & sent them money.
I joined the ACLU and sent them money.
I sent my retirement savings offshore.
Like Superman's parents, abandon hope.
Abandon this failed state & hope anew.

JCRUM; YOUR WEB SIGHT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A SALES EMPORIUM FOR YOUR GARBAGE. WITH SALES TAXES!

DON'T CALL ME AN "ASSHOLE" OR "FUCKING HYPOCRITE" AGAIN.

COMMON DREAMERS; IF YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY BORED GO TO CRUMB'S 'SALES' WEB-SIGHT AND BUY SOMETHING-TAXES MUST BE INCLUDED.

QUIT INSULTING ME CRUMB.

I'M NOT A "FUCKING ASSHOLE" I don't do anal intercourse and you are filthy.

YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE OF THE HIGHEST ORDER.
YOUR STUPID T-SHIRTS ARE AS UGLY LOOKING AS YOUR MOUTH SOUNDS.

MAKING LOTS OF SALES?

If you live in the south you are familiar with the ubiquitous early twentieth century cotton mill standing empty or maybe converted into shops, offices, or apartments.

Pay closer attention next time you see one. Right in front and center will be a fortress; solid brick walls three feet thick. Originally there was an oak door twelve inches thick with heavy iron hinges and locks on this castle keep.

Guess who stayed in the keep? Guess what they were afraid of?

This song sums up the state of Amerika better than any I've ever heard and it's over a decade old:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b429zk6aTfs

THE DECLINE

whats the opposite of PROgress?

CONgress

(except for a few like kucinich...)

I quit writing these little essays over two years ago to give reality a chance to catch up. Forgive the immodesty of linking to myself, but I think all of us saw this coming a long time back.

http://www.voxclamantis.com/pages/wasser.html
http://www.voxclamantis.com/pages/spies.html

Although I have determined to vote for Nader since the beginning of his candidacy, I have been wiling to hold out hope that an Obama win would be a positive thing. Not after today. That twerp can go back to Chicago, and we'll let Mohammed Atta fly the plane.

Senator Obama's betrayal of the American people in assisting to eviscerate the Fourth Amendment by his vote to approve the FISA bill has forced me to turn my back on him as a potential Presidential candidate. In my estimation he has now joined the 81% of this Congress that the American public disapproves of. I thank those Senators who voted to overturn the bill. I regret that none of you are running for the Presidency. That office has been so abused, defaced, and dishonored by the current president that it will take decades to undo the damage he has wreaked on the American people and the world. I will vote for Ralph Nader now and not for a minute consider my vote wasted because I will still be able to face myself in the mirror each morning, knowing that I didn't go along with the crowd because "some things have to be sacrificed to obtain others." I would hope others will do some soul-searching regarding this matter as well and push the "hype" of the upcoming election aside in favor of helping to restore integrity to our highest office and our precious Constitution.

The Feds waste little time eavesdropping. Last night I was having a phone conversation with a friend, and about five minutes into it, she asked if someone was trying to call me. I told her "no" and asked her the same question (my phone usually beeps in two quick cadences when someone is trying to call me). She said "no". After her reply I did notice a sound that was similar to someone hanging up a phone. She asked me why someone would listen to the conversation and I told her about the new law that allowed the government to eavesdrop on phone conversations anytime it wanted to without a court order. She had not heard about the bill and HIT THE ROOF. I did not try to calm her. She thanked me for informing her and said she would tell all of her friends (she has lots of friends).

Heads up everyone. Big Brother is listening.

Hi
Our mailing address is
1260 Mission St
San Francisco, Ca 94103

and all the info is at: www.CindyforCongress.org

thanks!
Cindy

Watch the Jonathan Turley Youtube video embedded above in this article. Excellent analysis: he points out that the president committed 30 FELONIES, it is blatantly out in the open for all to see. SO, what do does Pelosi, Obama, and Reid do? They GUT the 4th Amendment (a provision in the Bill of Rights that protects us from UNREASONABLE SEARCHES AND SEIZURES), re-write the 4th Amendment to protect President Bush and the Telecoms! So, we the people now have no protection against unwarranted searches and seizures because Bush chose to break the law and create a surveillance, wire tapping police state. Telecom lobbyists and the democrats like Pelosi and Reid and your "mr. new America" Obama voted to EVISCERATE THE 4TH AMENDMENT.

How could anybody--ANYBODY--like the democrats? This Democratic Senate, ONCE AGAIN, does everything it can to worship, protect and even FURTHER the Bush agenda....EVEN GOING SO FAR AS TO GUT THE 4TH AMENDMENT, and not only that: ENHANCE the powers of the president to EXPAND WARANTLESS WIRETAPPING AND GIVE TOTAL IMMUNITY TO TELECOM COMPANIES DOING THE WIRETAPPING FROM LAWSUITS.

This government of Bush and the democrats knows NO LIMITS to how BAD, how much DAMAGE they can do, HOW COMPLETELY FUCKED UP THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS NOW THANKS TO THESE FUCKING ASSHOLES.

You might want to say it can't get much worse than this, but rest assured it WILL get even worse than this...what a bunch of fucking corporate losers...pure, wretched evil at your expense.

This Bill is in Clear violation of Our Constitutional Bill of Rights. Therefore, the Supreme Court will strike it Down...right?!? (...dissolves into a fit of uncontrollable laughter)

CINDY: Is there a mailing address/PO box etc that one can send a check? I prefer it to on-line credit card transactions. Perhaps others in this forum feel the same way for the issue du jour's very reason!

Hi Cindy,

Happy birthday!!!! I will be getting another check to your campaign this evening. Take care.

Dear JCrumb
I have not paid my federal taxes since my son was killed for lies...
CODEPINK tried to organize a tax protest...I believe they asked people to not pay a very small portion, and of course, that went nowhere.

We who are awake are a very small minority here in America...I am running to win here in San Francisco and I don't have the staff, or the time to organize a mass tax revolt, even though I would endorse one and back one.

Also, I believe paying or not paying taxes is a moral decision and we can't judge people who do. We don't know their circumstances or what else they do to try and end the murdering, torturing, and totalitarianism in our country...and you realize that most of the money for this war comes from China anyway.

xoxo
Cindy

So many intelligent comments!

NIETSCHZE: Love the odds/humor!

PUCK TWAIN: Now that was far-out, and it's me saying so! Explain to the good people, what the 6th chakra constitutes!

MS. SHEEHAN: Your wonderfully insightful use of l984 to reflect CURRENT U.S. policies should become an advertisement in a mainstream (USA TODAY?) publication. I, for one, would put $50 towards buying that ad space if others in the forum will also help. This would educate the American voters who truly do NOT see the connecting of very dark dots, and what the cloud over our land is only beginning to represent and mean.

At the bottom of this ad, the call should be that everyone who resonates with the message send $19.84. That is a wonderfully symbolic fiscal gesture!

SAMSON: Excellent postings along this thread.

It's amazing to see how many have become so politically astute here in just a week's time, after having the opportunity to observe the obvious for 16+ months.

How many lies does a person have to tell before some realize the person is a damn liar or a con artist?

I do acknowlege, that Obama could convince many, that horseshit was caviar. He is the best orator I have ever seen.

I no longer care how my Senators voted. I'll NEVER again vote for either corporate party.

MRFOAD might be right, it may take grapeshot and canister to get through to our elected officials. We MUST hold them to a higher standard - to slowly twist in the wind if necessary. Ditto the Evilgelicals.

It's not just lobbyists offering bribes but it's also our elected officials taking bribes from these 'artifical' citizens. This catistrophic destruction or our republic was cast more than a hundred years ago. Google: 'Santa Clara County vs Union Pacific Railroad' to understand how We-The-People were betrayed.

So much for the concept of a free country. I suppose we should have seen this one coming. Time to invest in some serious encryption devices.

jcumb:

I'm curious as to why your website link http://www.crumbproducts.com/ levees a Sales Tax on products purchased? Should it not be Tax Free?

All we can really do is vote for Obama hoping for respite, and wait until the Internet's influence inevitably overcomes the corporate media's so our moronic public learns the truth.

If the former sheeple can get the straight poop from different global online sources, they'll begin to understand and vote for candidates that have their best interests in mind and not the oligarchy's.

Old ankylosed conservatives who always vote won't change, but most don't use the Internet anyway. Our best hopes will lie in the new tech knowledgeable generation from which conservatives can't hide or corrupt the truth. It will probably take a couple of years, judging by rising anti-Bush polls.

Orwell didn't count on the Internet as a global organizing tool and for information and communications. Big Brother hasn't been able to control the Internet yet, not for lack of trying.

Though the Internet cuts both ways, the truth eventually surfaces. That's my observation.

I went to http://mybarackobama.com and started a group called "Obama lost my vote today." I have yet to hear whether or not their administrators will approve it.

I guess I will be writing in Kucinich after all.

My two Senators voted NAY. So how about a 1 day moratorium on any New Jersey jokes.

Obama lost my vote today.

ALL of us beings that have written here are the subversives that will bring an end to the psychopathic corporate fascist state. Now is the moment to choose either freedom or tyranny. We cannot be afraid of what might happen to us. Lose fear and tyranny turns to dust.

Agreed! Vote Nader, he's the only one running that deserves respect for what he has done, for what he stands for. Don't disrespect yourself or your vote by handing it to the likes of Obama or McCain.

http://www.votenader.org/

You don't get change by voting the same in, at this time, after how the "O" voted, I'm voting for Barr and anyone on the National ticket that isn't a repug or Sissycrat.

My fellow patriots.

The time for armed overthrow of the (so called) government is at hand.

Keep your powder dry & be ready.

*Of course when you witness the dehumanization of stepping into the power vacuums unprepared, as presented by Bush and Cheney and now seemingly Obama, you can understand the natural apprehension for doing so...hmm...and maybe developing some compassion for such scoundrels?

Its all about money. We have a government of the money, for the money, and by the money.

The ACLU and the EFF have both sworn to take this to the Supreme Court. Donations to the ACLU can be made here: http://action.aclu.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FJ_donationhome

Donations to the EFF can be made here: https://secure.eff.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=DON_splash

Please give til it hurts.

"...those in Washington governing? Again I ask, by what right do they claim to represent and govern if it is not the US Constitution? " - Richard Paine

Please see Mass Psychology of Fascism, and People In Trouble by Wilhelm Reich. The "right" they use is "because we can", plus the biological/psychically based fact that there is no one else capable of stepping into the power vacuums when they arise; okay, there's Kucinich and Feingold, but as my Grandfather told my Mother one day after returning bruised and bloodied from "Labor negotiations", "don't go to war unless you know your army is behind you".

And who do Dennis and Russ have behind them? Basically no one: masses of millions who are incapable of acting in a powerfully coherent fashion on the Earth plane because their 6th chakras are (for good or bad) overly intertwined with the lifeless Earth electronic energy of our Beloved Beast in Brussels: the Beloved Beast who caters to our every whim with convenience and seeming comfort - but at what cost? - nothing wrong with convenience and comfort, except when they replace biological power and Spiritual unfoldment. So convenient to have to only click a few buttons and supposedly "She" appears, but does such ease truly match or surpass the biological and Spiritual Truth of going into the human community and forest and succoring in the waves of Vulva whether presented in human flesh form or the petals of the Tiger Lily?

Lifeless Earth electronic energy - no, not bad in itself: it can serve as a road map for the symbolic, but it is just a map: dry and thus devoid of human life sustenance. The human road, Spiritual or otherwise, is replete with moisture, unless one succumbs to death via over-intoxication of loving the Beast; though dancing with and love of the Beast is well and proper in it's due place.

My next steps: recognizing and honoring the mark of the Beast and the lack of an Army, recapturing the power and talents of the 6th chakra, structuring biological/psychic support circles worthy of an Army based on insights derived from recaptured power ......(though it can be a wink of an eye, time passes)......the building of an Army...and the Ant Dance of the Indras continues unabated...

- aum

I feel the frustration and anger too. I cannot vote this year because there is no life affirming candidate running. Those running are either for continued abortion or continued war. I do not believe that we can shake the culture of death that we exist in without clearly affirming life in all it's forms. It's a sad day when death is the only political choice.

Easy solution:

V
O
T
E

N
A
D
E
R

What to do?

Join Nader/Gonzalez - the candidacy that will shift the power from the corporations back into the hands of the people.

We strongly oppose the wiretap surveillance legislation that Obama and McCain support.

We stand strongly with the American people and for the Constitution.

The Nader/Gonzalez campaign is now at six percent in the most recent CNN poll.

We're in the middle of a fundraising drive right now to put Nader/Gonzalez on the ballot in 45 states by September 20.

Help us get there now.

Go to votenader.org.

One more thing..yeah that's right..ignore this if it gives your RATIONALIZATION a problem..

Where are the.."ACTIVISTS" when it comes to TAX PROTEST? which is the ONLY form the "Government" will respond too?

Hey..CINDY!..DO IT! NOW! PLEASE! a web based tax protest..with collective bargaining..to demand..for starters..a "FIRST AND FOREMOST, THE CONSTITUTION" ..RESET.

An END to the REVOVING DOOR..Corporate to government/Government to corporate..this is..IS the problem..TELECOM IMMUNITY..OIL COMPANY ENERGY POLICY...yaddah yaddah...SO..please..ACTIVISTS...now..NOW is the Time..

Obama..IGNORED 20,000 members of his "Change" website..the same week that he said in RollingStone that he would use "Technology" to be 'accountable' to 'young people' if he was not 'living up to his commitments'..So..OBAMA...has Completely SOLD out his "credibility" in a period of weeks..with DiRECT..really..THROUGH the LOOKING glass hypocrisy..almost BIZARRE in it's RABID energy...really ..stupifyingly..BLATANT disregard for the TRUTH..say whatever you have to..period...groan!

The 110th congress...our.."REPRESENTATIVES.." yeah riiight..are OKAY....yeah..OKAY! with can you DIG IT? 9% APPROVAL...NINE PERCENT!!!!!!!!

The point...the POINT? these people..these POLITICIANS...DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU OR YOU OR YOU....."THINK"..and BushCo? and the Repugs..well..EVERYONE but the Clones and the true believers..the Christo-Fascists..Knows that these swine are..UTTERLY incapable of doing anything for.."The People"

So..AGAIN..WHAT do they "care about"?...MONEY..M-O-N-E-Y!...money...MONEY...$$$$$..mooooneyyy...OOOH..OHHH..THAS ALL I WANT...OOH..OO-A OO

and ONLY..money..

And now..right NOW..in between "cycles" of these scum..is when to STRIKE a message..to say to the new "tribunal of elders" ..

"HEY..ASSHOLES..WE WILL NOT PAY FOR THIS! It is not really about which one of you is (s)elected..it's about which one of you we are going to allow to use our money..so you better get it right.." or to that effect..you follow me here?

So..the ONLY form of "PROTEST" that is going to effect real change..realitvely quickly...gives every participant a VOICE...is EASY to understand for almost every American...unlike more.."rhetorical" and subtle and complicate forms of protest..is..GENERAL TAX STRIKE...GENERAL TAX PROTEST..DO NOT PAY FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF YOUR LIBERTY..DO NOT FINANCE THE SALLERIES OF THE "WATCHERS"..WOULD YOU REALLY.."KNOWINGLY" PAY SPOMEONE TO SPY ON YOU?..REALLY? WOW!

So..please..it has come to this..it is down to..really..for real..fighting for our very liberty..and the only form..AGAIN..that is Non-Violent..Easy to understand..makes an INSTANT..and IMMEDIATE..and DIRECT impact..on an INDIVIDUAL level..every DOLLAR..is a BULLET..evey single dollar counts for them..the only dirct form of protest is...fer cryin out loud....TAX PROTEST..TAX STRIKE..

WE..THE "UNION" OF TAX PAYERS..SHALL STRIKE FOR THE RETURN OF OUR FULL CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTIONS AND A MORATORIUM ON THE REVOLVING DOOR..ADD TO THAT AN END TO PRIVATIZATION OF ELECTIONS VIA ELECTRONIC VOTING WITH NO PAPER TRAIL..AND ON AND ON..A LIST..OF COLLECTIVLEY DECIDED UPON CHARGES..AND "DEMANDS"

Think about it..if 10 million..hell if ONE million did this..it would be HUGE..and so easy to understand..hard to.."SPIN"..we do not pay for what we ARE not getting..who can not understand that? etc..

I am ALREADY there..I am taking the "risks" of reprisal from the FEDERAL LOYALIST ARMY of clerks in front of monitors..and the Corporate fascist theocracy of BushCo and the branches that support this insanity..I am protesting their actions..their ASSAULT on my freedom..

BY NOT PAYING FOR IT..I HAVE NOT..AND WILL NOT..

Also..HOW do those of you who get your money taken "out" for you..by those you work for..get it back?..so that you can decide if you WANT to send it or NOT?that is the kind of question and answer that could be on a WEB based tax strike organizing site..ANSWES...BOARDS..etc..etc..the real deal..I am NOTR a pro organizer..but I will be there every moment I have...let's go.....they would spy on us..may be spying on me now..i am after all..a "Beligerent"..HUP!..(and proud of it)..but..it is the ONLY thing that will work..because again..it is the ONLY thing the government WANTS OR NEEDS FROM THE PEOPLE..THEIR MONEY..THE DISPOSABLE BILLIONS YOU SEND IN DUTIFULLY..OUT O FEAR..EVERY YEAR...BILLIONS TO USE TO PAY FOR EVERY ASSAULT ON REASON AND THE CONSTITUTION DONE THUS FAR...YOU PAID FOR ALL OF IT..EVERY MINUTE OF THIS ILLEGAL WAR..EVERY MINUTWE OF THE ILLEGAL WIRETAPS..EVERY MINUTE OF THE FAITH BASED PROGRAMS..ALL OF IT..YOU PAY FOR IT..WHY? WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU RANT AND RAVE AND BITCH AND COMPLAIGN.....AND THEN SEND THESE SAME SWINE.....YOUR MONEY? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?

Wake UP! and stop paying for your own demise...you will pay for your own imprisonment..it is that insane..WHY?

If we stop paying even in the millions..maybe even less than that..it WILL be noticed..it is the ONE thing that they worry about..an interruption to the flow of money...that is DESPERATELY needed...the slower the economy..the more those tax dollars are required..desperately...hey..the ICH know this..they pay LESS..duhhhh..wake up!

Until you stop rationalizing yor fear of the governement...and stop paying..this is going to continue to happen..and to thse of you using the "social security" rational..I got some news fer ya...it is not going to be there ANYWAY!...THAT..is already gone..and who cares..is a little silver worht selling out your country? your RIGHTS? if SO..then how can yu POSSIBLY complain about anyone else..like..say...a ..politician..you are almost ALL..too afraid..in reality...to o ANYTHINGH about what is going on...OTHER than BITCH about it...

Tax Revolt..Tax Strike..Tax PROTEST...is a TRUE and EFFECTIVE and POWRFUL tool..and you will not use it...it is the ONLY real POWER we have left..the 'POWER OF THE PURSE' that is supposed to be Congress' job..but they hav ABDICATED that responsibility..they no longer are an effective Check on executive..OR corporate power..and so...it falls to the final .."branch" of the Government...WE THE PEOPLE..IN WHO'S NAMES THESE TRAITORS SERVE..AND HEY..MAYBE 28 OR SO SENATORS AND SOME REPS WILL ALSO GET ON BOARD AND SUPPORT A TAX STRIKE...HUP! BECASUE WE AR AT THAT POIT! DOES ANYONE ON THIS BOARD NOT AGREE THAT THIS IS REALLY SCARY? REALLY A BIGGER THAN YOU EVER THOUGHT POSSIBLE REALITY?...it is TIME..DRASTIC TIMES call for DRASTIC measures..NON-Violent..Easy to understand...MONEY..the ONE thing MOST people actually "think" about..and can process in their minds...

TIME is NOW!..Stop financing this governmetns assault on our very Liberty..

IMPOSE ECONOMIC SANCTIONS ON THIS ROGUE GOVERNMENT...NOW..BEFORE YOU HAVE TO PICK UP A RIFLE TO STAVE OFF THE BLACKWATER THUGS TRYING TO KICK YOUR DOOR DOWN TO INVENTORY YOUR "ASSETS"...THIS IS THE TIME...ACTION FOLKS..TAX STRIKE..COLLECTIVE BARGAINING..DEMAND A RETURN TO "REPRESENTATIVE" GOVERNMENT..AND CONSTITUTIONAL RULE OF LAW...ACT NOW!

THE TREE OF AUTHORITARIANISM NEEDS TO BE WATERED WITH MONEY...YOUR MONEY..OR IT WILL DIE..LET IT DIE..STOP PAYING NOW!....JOIN..RATIONALIZE IN FEAR...THE CHOICE IS STILL...YOURS...FER NOW..

Just look at the records to see how much each member of congress received from the telecommunications. American News Project reports that Obama got $220, 789. from the telecommuncations industry this year, and McCain got $365,955. You can figure out the rest.

For years, possibly a couple of decades, it has seemed to me that Congress has gradually relinquished its power to the Executive. It has given up oversight of treaties, it has handed the president its "war powers," it has stood by passively while, especially in this particular administration, the president has developed "signing statements" (Find THAT in your Handy Pocket Constitution, kids!) into a mechanism for actually declaring which laws or parts of laws the Executive Branch will carry out.

These are extra-Constitutional cessions. The Constitution mandates three THREE co EQUAL branches of this government as a means for checking the seemingly natural and unavoidable quest for additional power of any one of the branches.

Congress has transformed itself into a hood ornament on the Neo-con creation called the "Unitary Executive" (Yeah ... there's another one you can try to find in your Handy Pocket Constitution.). It has subsequently, in its ride upon the hood of the Executive, been complicit in allowing the only remaining check of the rush toward centralization of power, our Courts, to be politicized and, worse than neutered, transformed into an accessory ... no ... worse ... an ACCOMPLICE of the movement.

We now have what must surely be the most blatant example of OUR government acting, not in the interests of its VOTING citizens, but in the interests of our CORPORATE citizens.

Money now trumps votes. It is there for all the world to see. The "Candidate of Change" (How it hurts to say this!) has demonstrated WHICH "change" he's for. He may have just found that magic Democratic stroke of genius that will, yet again, allow the candidate to snatch defeat from the very jaws of victory.

I know it is a terribly charged word with an awful history, and ... It is time we started to seriously study the defining characteristics of Fascism.

We have slid sooooo terribly close to the final unrecoverable edge of the slippery slope that ends in the plunge into tyranny.... soooo very near.

If you are not yet frightened ... please allow an older citizen to take your elbow and urgently whisper into your ear ...

"It's TIME!!!"

Obama just proved it.
"CHANGE" is just a word he is using to get elected.

Obama: You will never get my vote!

I will call Senator Harkin (my senator) to thank him for standing with Dodd & Feingold.

I find it interesting that Senator Clinton was on the right side on this issue.
When the chips were down, she stood for us.

After looking at this action on behalf of the people, does anyone seriously believe things can be changed by an election? While there may be a change of faces, there obviously will be no changes in policy or direction since it's clear there is no opposition in the U.S., and that the constitution is just an outdated shred of paper. Congress, including those guys wanting the powers of the presidency, has sold us down the drain.

I'm just gonna toss the phone. End of problem. Let em' listen to static. If they won't stop, I will. Put the bastards outa business. I've already tossed the television.

I Nicholas, live in The United States Of Fascism! In my lifetime from Freedom to Slavery! Where is your outrage?

You FUCKING HYPOCRITES!

Yeah..everyone of you...all 183 of you...you are ALL paying for this..EVERY HOUR of surviellance..every sallery involved...every goddamn one of those bastards is being paid..by..YOU!

You all blame Obama...you blame the democrats..you blame the "corporations"...hey..NONE of that is possible without YOUR support too..YOURS!

You make ALL of this possible..you dutifully send in your disposable billions wihout..WITHOUT question...and then JOIN in the DUMBEST game they play..the SPIN THE BOTTLE OF BLAME game...and you look everywhere BUT the mirror...

AND..guess what? YOU'LL STILL PAY!..yup! thas right..you will send in your money for the continuance of the destruction of your very freedom..out of FEAR..and blame..and cast aspersions and on and on and on...all the while...it is YOU..that makes every goddamn MINUTE of this insanity possibl..no one else...just YOU!

Stop paying..NOW!...if you value your freedom at all..STOP PAYING THEM TO TAKE IT AWAY!

It is ime folks...to JOIN in..and partiipate in a NON-VIOLENT AMERICAN TRADITION....TAX PROTEST..Throw the TEA overboard...right into the bay..and stop WHINING!

It really pisses me off to see these ASSHOLES blame Obama..who is a fuking HYPOCRITE and a LIAR..yeah..it's a done deal..sure..BUT WHERE IS THEIR "SOLUTION"..Notice that it is ALL complaining and NO ACTION?

I am SICK of this..you are HYPOCRITES as well..PERIOD..you PAY? you PLAY!

You are getting the kind of government you DESERVE..period!

So..PAY and LOSE...or do not pay..and FIGHT FOR YOUR GODDAMN FREEDOM..OR SHUT THE HELL UP..INNEFECTUAL WHINING..IS NOT GOING TO WIN THIS..ONLY ACTION..AND ONLY MONEY IS CRITICAL TO THEM..THIS IS ALL ABOUT MONEY..SO WAKE THE FUCK UP...ASSHOLES!

LIVE FREE OR DIE..

Obama voted for this pile of shit, and Hillary voted against it. This is nothing new. I have posted their Senate voting records in these forums many times. Hillary typically votes with the most progressive Democrats, and Obama typically votes with the Republicans and the handful of right-wing Democrats.

Obama lied on the campaign trail about his opposition to this bill. That is nothing new. He has lied many, many times on the campaign trail. His "passing" of a bill to regulate radiation leaks from nuclear power plants, his pledge to rewrite NAFTA, his stated reason for voting against a 30% cap on credit card interest rates, and now FISA: all are examples of lies which he has been CAUGHT telling.

But, there is something here that IS new. Because Obama is now expected to be the Democratic nominee, some Democrats voted with him for this bill out of "unity" and party "loyalty." If Hillary was expected to be the Democratic nominee, those same loyalists would have voted with her against this bill.

THINK ABOUT THAT. If Obama becomes president, this same scenario will be repeated again and again. Things that Bush/Cheney couldn't get passed because of Democratic opposition, will be passed because a Democratic president will have a Democratic Congress supporting his positions out of party loyalty.

As I've said many times, Obama is a Republican in Democrat's clothing.

Lets take that 9% appoval rating and turn into a 9% voter turnout for the Presidential election.
Don't participate in the fraud!

Lisa3210peace, you echo my feelings exactly, and I'm praying, well wishing anyway, that's the best atheists can do.

I am so pissed right now, I haven't been this pissed since the Dems helped the Reps to pass the military commissions act and deep-sixed habeas corpus. I think Obama may have just ended his bid for the White House, and for what??? The FISA bill didn't even need his vote to pass!

Anyway, I have a plan that I will flesh-out and share with everyone later.

The election of Cindy Sheehan over Pelosi will begin the revolution against the established power in Washington. It will be the earthquake that will help collapse the fake structure of the democratic party.

It will be very hard for congress to have someone of integrity and deceny as part of their body...but that is what we the people are demanding...integrity and decency.

I am doing what I can for Cindy including giving $. This is a campaign that really has the audacity to hope!

I agree with simo...

Stop shopping, stop buying gas.

Stop watching TV. The media is pure complicity, violation of the Constitution should be the top news story, but it is not. Hurt them where it hurts the most, in their pockets. Remember the Boston Tea Party? We are no longer represented by our government - so why pay taxes?
Make them have a bad day at work tomorrow and every day - call them. I have called all my representatives, and Obama's office and told them why I will not be voting for them.
With this nest of vipers in Washington immunity should not be granted to anybody. These violations of OUR Constitution must be investigated and criminal charges should be brought against the Bush Administration. This government no longer represents WE THE PEOPLE of the United States of America, it represents the wealthy and the corrupt. The people elected the Democrats last time to make Bush stop violating the Constitution and the Democrats give him what he wants at every turn! Our Constitution's framers anticipated this..the solution is another political party.

obama voted for the powers HE WILL HAVE, obama is our next war president. obama IS war with iran (business as usual), this was only the pre-betrayal. watch and see.

we the people... BETRAYED

The 1978 FISA was a very well thought out, tried and true mechanism allowing effective eavesdropping of foreign connect communications to thwart terrorism while at the same time providing a check against abuse of this power. The fascists have been systematically dismantling such checks, and everything else supporting the public interests, with passive approval from the consumption slaves to strengthen their fascist grip on the nation. The dismantling of FISA is a particularly deep drop into the fascist depths. In those depths the people are enslaved to elites. All other occurences are side-effects. God Bless the United States of America!

This is seriously historical.

It's about money ($J$). Everything else ( climate, water, poor people, polar bears, fish, bees, corn) is expendable. Its hard to belive that money can take on - everything else - energies. They are bound to fail.

Until then, this whole setup is to facilitate extortion of people with more money then they know what to do with. Like the Saudi princess, Google CEO's , Japanese CEO's, Italian mafia, Chinese industrialists, Indian conglomarates, Energy barons, American Lawyers, Media Moguls etc. etc.

This is what is meant by Information Economy, my professors told me is coming to post industrial economies.

If this works, I am praying they won't need my measly income tax.

Also,I hope they don't turn on ordinary people and make us fight slavery again. We know how that turned out over and over again.

.

http://www.votenader.org/blog/2008/07/09/telecom-immunity/

Nader Audio on Telecom Immunity

Posted by Ralph Nader on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 at 12:55:00 PM

.

Today, July 9th, on www.counterpunch.com there is a link to Mumia's thoughts on Nader vs Obama, it's well worth listening to. Scroll down to "website of the day".

I try to sleep, they're wide awake, they won't leave me alone.
They don't get paid to take vacations, or let me alone.
They spy on me, I try to hide, they won't let me alone.
They persecute me, they're the judge and jury all in one.
-Cheap Trick

Obama-
"Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people," he wrote. "There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders."

-but, okay, damn it, I'll vote for it.

To all Democrat detractors; You Are The Best!

No divisiveness between liberals is good.

May we remember our commonalities as we disagree about how to change this horrific beast we call our government.

Personally, in this time of national crisis I believe Obama is the best chance we have. Terribly flawed though he is.

But we are one. We must be one.

I refuse to feel apart from people who's opinions about solutions differ from mine when we see the problems more or less the same.

Let us all pray tonight for Cheney's excruciating death.
This would be a nice little CD solidarity excersize. And what if it worked?

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't following you."

claudius July 9th, 2008 11:49 pm:

Thanks for clarifying which vote Kennedy made the effort to cast. Good for him! I had not thought of that one.

And Happy Birthday, Cindy! I'm on my way to your website.

The dream police, they live inside of my head.
The dream police, they come to me in my bed.
The dream police, they're coming to arrest me, oh no.

You know that talk is cheap, and those rumors ain't nice.
And when I fall asleep I don't think I'll survive the night, the night.

'Cause they're waiting for me.
They're looking for me.
Ev'ry single night they're driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.
-Cheap Trick

Thoughts_Into_Action,
Todays vote will likely pass unnoticed by all but a few. There may be a little talk about it, but like all the travesties of the last few years, nothing will be done about it. Next week it will be old news.

Down the road, however, when we least expect, (and it may be years) all that digital info being stored will reappear. As the authoritarians consolidate their control, everyone will have left their fingerprints in emails, phone conversations, credit card transactions, purchases, etc etc. All they will have to do is consult the great database and conclude, "Hmmmm, yeah, looks like a troublemaker, off you go". And most will wonder what in hell happened.

It's a (secret) police state.

Normally, I'd say the obvious - vote third party, the only hope. However, that might not do it now. This decision by the Congress implies a degree of lawlessness and contempt for the public that's truly dumbfounding.

U.S. citizens are now outlaws in their own country. War has been declared, and you're the target. The guns faced outward and many war crimes were committed. Now, they're turning inward.

This Congressional vote implies a need for control over the local population - but to what end?

Someone mentioned bombing Iran above. Maybe that's the plan - to finish the job. It's never clear when the public will revolt (some Dem loyalists here never will), but if you've got a massive datamining operation place (and fixed elections), maybe you can get away with murder if you measure things right.

I'd say the Constitution is dead. That means the compact is dead. I'm not sure what I'll do, but if a crowd is forming with pitchforks and staves, count me in. Alas, I'm not sure the American public is alarmed enough to turn off the TV and get in the streets. Will they ever turn out?

Thanks for coming on here tonight Cindy. Even though I have sent you money before, I'll try to send more. It is truely important that Pelosi be held accountable for all of her treachery. And the only way to do that is to get you elected. It's not just that you would be a good Congress Critter, it is the message that your election would send to every other "representative" that does not uphold their oath of office. Getting Pelosi thrown out is the only message from the people that these monsters are going to pay attention to.

I've been pretty choked up ever since the vote in the Senate. It's really hard to see our country die like this. The only thing I can think to do now is support Cindy's election and to give the ACLU some more money if I can.

This is a very sad day, even if it is Cindy's birthday. I have to go now. I can't hold back the tears any longer........

;)
dear rebelnow,
I promise you I work diligently to earn your support and every penny that has been donated to our campaign
xoxo
cindy

Before the presidential election of 2000, Ralph Nader stated that there was no difference between the Republican and Democratic parties. Here are a few things since then that the Democrats have either let Bush get away with, handed over to him on a silver platter, or offered little to no resistance.
Election Fraud
War
Funding
Gonzalez
Allito
Roberts
Torture
Plame outing
Abu Gharib
Illegal Wiretapping
Mukasey
Justice Dep't firings
Two stolen presidencies
Stripping of Habeus Corpus
Imperial presidency
Downing St. Memmos
Patriot Act
Katrina
Guantanomo
Housing crisis
Tanked Economy
Deteriorating health care
Military Commision Act
Corporate tax cuts
Cheny sleeping with energy executives
Rendition
No new taxes on huge oil profits
Impeachement off the table
Stripping of FISA
TELECOM IMMUNITY
What is so hard to understand about Nader's statement?

Happy Birthday Cindy,

Reading the articles here on CD is generally depressing, though essential. When I see your comments here my heart lifts a little and things seems less bleak. Thanks for all you are doing. I plan on reading about Congresswoman Sheehan in a few months. A check is in the mail, and somehow I doubt that I'll be looking for a refund down the road.

Akin, Gump and Boggs are all big contributors to Pelosi

we need to make lobbyists illegal...at least ones with suitcases filled with money.

it is sickening