Today's Coverup of Surveillance Crimes and Barack Obama
What we learned in December, 2005 that George Bush and the telecoms were doing -- listening in on the private conversations of American citizens without warrants -- is a felony under clear U.S. law, punishable by up to 5 years in prison and/or a $10,000 fine for each offense. Anyone can go read the section of FISA -- right here -- that says that as clearly as can be:
A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally -- (1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute; . . .
An offense described in this section is punishable by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both.
It was also as clear a violation of the Fourth Amendment as can be. For the Government to invade our communications with no probable cause showing to a court is exactly what the Founders prohibited as clearly as the English language permitted.
But today, the Democratic-led Congress -- with the support of both John McCain and Barack Obama, neither of whom will even bother to show up and vote -- will cover-up those crimes. Law Professor and Fourth Amendment expert Jonathan Turley was on MSNBC's Countdown with Rachel Maddow last night and gave as succinct an explanation for what Democrats -- not the Bush administration, but Democrats -- will do today. Anyone with any lingering doubts about what is taking place today in our country should watch this:
As Turley says, and as I've written many times over the last two weeks, what is most appalling here beyond the bill itself are the pure falsehoods being spewed to the public about what Congress is doing -- and those falsehoods are largely being spewed not by Republicans. Republicans are gleefully admitting, even boasting, that this bill gives them everything Bush and Cheney wanted and more, and includes only minor changes from the Rockefeller/Cheney Senate bill passed last February (which Obama, seeking the Democratic Party nomination, made a point of opposing).Rather, the insultingly false claims about this bill -- it brings the FISA court back into eavesdropping! it actually improves civil liberties! Obama will now go after the telecoms criminally! Government spying and lawbreaking isn't really that important anyway! -- are being disseminated by the Democratic Congressional leadership and, most of all, by those desperate to glorify Barack Obama and justify anything and everything he does. Many of these are the same people who spent the last five years screaming that Bush was shredding the Constitution, that spying on Americans was profoundly dangerous, that the political establishment did nothing about Bush's lawbreaking.It's been quite disturbing to watch them turn on a dime -- completely reverse everything they claimed to believe -- the minute Obama issued his statement saying that he would support this bill. They actually have the audacity to say that this bill -- a bill which Bush, Cheney and the entire GOP eagerly support, while virtually every civil libertarian vehemently opposes -- will increase the civil liberties that Americans enjoy, as though Dick Cheney, Mike McConnell and "Kit" Bond decided that it was urgently important to pass a new bill to restrict presidential spying and enhance our civil liberties. How completely do you have to relinquish your critical faculties at Barack Obama's altar in order to get yourself to think that way?The issues implicated by this bill -- government spying, lawbreaking, manipulation of national security claims for secrecy and presidential power, the extreme privileges corporations inside Washington receive -- have been at the very heart of progressive complaints against the Bush era for the last seven years. The type of capitulation and complicity which Jay Rockefeller and Steny Hoyer embraced is exactly what progressives have spent the last seven years scathingly attacking.
All of that magically changed for many people -- by no means all -- the day that Obama announced that he supported this "compromise," when these issues were suddenly relegated to nothing more than inconsequential, symbolic distractions, and complicity with Bush lawbreaking magically morphed into shrewd pragmatism. It's the same rationale that the dreaded Blue Dogs have been using since 2001 to justify their complicity which is now pouring out of the mouths of Obama defenders (we need to win elections first and foremost, and can only do that if we don't challenge Republicans on National Security and Terrorism).
* * * * *
Stanford Professor Larry Lessig has been a hard-core Obama supporter since before the primaries even began. He knows the candidate himself and has all sorts of contacts at high levels of the campaign. Yesterday, Lessig wrote a scathing criticism of what the Obama campaign has been doing over the past several weeks: "All signs point to an Obama victory this fall. If the signs are wrong, it will be because of events last month." This is what Lessig said about the Obama campaign's attitude towards the FISA bill:
Yet policy wonks inside the campaign sputter policy that Obama listens to and follows, again, apparently oblivious to how following that advice, when inconsistent with the positions taken in the past, just reinforces the other side's campaign claim that Obama is just another calculating, unprincipled politician.
The best evidence that they don't get this is Telco Immunity. Obama said he would filibuster a FISA bill with Telco Immunity in it. He has now signaled he won't. When you talk to people close to the campaign about this, they say stuff like: "Come on, who really cares about that issue? Does anyone think the left is going to vote for McCain rather than Obama? This was a hard question. We tried to get it right. And anyway, the FISA compromise in the bill was a good one."
So the highest levels of the Obama campaign believe this bill is "a good one." Lessig adds that the perception of Obama's craven, nakedly calculating behavior as illustrated by his support for the FISA bill is by far the largest threat to his candidacy as it "completely undermine Obama's signal virtue -- that he's different":
The Obama campaign seems just blind to the fact that these flips eat away at the most important asset Obama has. It seems oblivious to the consequence of another election in which (many) Democrats aren't deeply motivated to vote (consequence: the GOP wins).
I can't count the number of emails I've received demanding that I stop criticizing Obama for his support of this bill on the ground that such criticisms harm his chances for winning -- as though it's the fault of those who point out what Obama is doing, rather than Obama himself for completely reversing his position, abandoning his clear, prior commitments, and helping to institutionalize the destruction of the Fourth Amendment and the concealment of Bush crimes.
Ultimately, it's the sheer glibness of the support for this corrupt and Bush-enabling bill among Obama and his supporters that is most striking. Revealingly, Lanny Davis -- a pure symbol of everything that is rotted and broken in our political culture -- wrote an Op-Ed yesterday lavishly praising Obama for his support of the FISA bill on the ground that it "provided the senator an important chance to demonstrate his 'Sister Souljah moment.'" Beltway operatives like Davis can only understand the world through the prism of this finite set of clichés -- Stand up the Left. Sister Souljah. Move to the Center. That's the same oh-so-sophisticiated political analysis one finds everywhere to justify what Obama is doing. As Dan Larison put it yesterday:
In Obamaworld, apparently wrecking the Fourth Amendment is roughly equivalent to ridiculing some obscure rapper. The only thing more depressing than the conceit that supporting unconstitutional measures is a way to "signal" to swing voters that you are not a radical loon bent on "ideological purity," which is basically to make defending the Constitution a position held only by radicals and extremists, is the dishonest representation of support for the compromise legislation as being a pro-civil liberties position.
John Nichols of The Nation -- one of the most pro-Obama media organs in the country -- pointed out yesterday that Obama won the critical Wisconsin primary in large part by holding himself out to Democratic voters there -- for whom civil liberties is a vital issue -- as a steadfast ally of Feingold on these issues:
Before the February 19 Wisconsin primary, which confirmed his front-runner status in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, Illinois Senator Barack Obama went out of his way to associate his candidacy with the name of Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold. . . .
Obama wanted to secure the support of the substantial portion of Democrats nationally who, in polls conducted in 2006, indicated that they would back Feingold if he entered the presidential race. Internal polls by the various campaigns indicated that Feingold drew as much as 15 percent of the vote in a number of key states, coming mostly from anti-war and pro-civil liberties progressives. . . .
"I am proud to stand with Senator Dodd, Senator Feingold and a grass-roots movement of Americans who are refusing to let President Bush put protections for special interests ahead of our security and our liberty," declared Obama, who indicated that he would support efforts to filibuster any attack on the ability of citizens to use the courts to defend their privacy rights.
Obama's stance helped him. It was cited in endorsements by prominent progressives and newspapers in Wisconsin and other later primary states. No doubt, it contributed to his landslide victory in the Badger State, where the Illinoisan won a vote from Feingold himself.
Yet, now that he is the presumptive nominee, Obama is standing not with Feingold, but with Bush and the special interests Obama once denounced. He says he'll vote for a White House-backed FISA rewrite -- which is likely to be taken up by the Senate this week -- in opposition to the position taken by civil liberties groups, legal scholars on the left and right and, of course, Russ Feingold.
Who can justify that?
* * * * *
Ultimately, what's most amazing about all of that is that -- as Senate Intelligence Committee member Russ Feingold pointed out yesterday -- even the vast majority of the Congress, let alone Obama apologists, have no idea what these spying programs even entail or how they work. As someone who isn't on the Intelligence Committee, does Obama even know?
Either way, here's what the ACLU's Caroline Fredrickson wrote to The Washington Post yesterday in response to Fred Hiatt's latest Editorial praising Obama and the FISA bill:
The fact is that the revisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act under consideration in the Senate this week would virtually do away with the role of the FISA court in overseeing new dragnet surveillance. Its role would be reduced to little more than serving as a rubber stamp.
It is a shame that the paper that uncovered the Watergate scandal, which helped lead to more congressional oversight of executive authority and the checks and balances of FISA, now believes that the president once again should have unfettered power to spy on Americans.
Sen. Feingold -- who, as a member of both the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary Committees, probably knows as much about the NSA program as any member of Congress -- added:
The government absolutely must be able to wiretap suspected terrorists to protect our security, and every member of Congress supports that. With this bill, however, for the first time since FISA was adopted 30 years ago, the government would be authorized to collect all communications into and out of the United States without warrants. That means Americans e-mailing relatives abroad or calling business associates overseas could be monitored with absolutely no suspicion of wrongdoing by anyone. This bill overturns the laws and principles that have governed surveillance for the past 30 years.
The San Fransisco Chronicle editorialized today:
Warrantless wiretapping of Americans should outrage Congress into banning the practice. But, in a display of political expediency, the Senate is about to bless it, following a similar cave-in by the House last month.
Making matters worse, both likely presidential candidates -- Sens. Barack Obama and John McCain - plan to reverse their opposition and vote for the White House-backed rewrite of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The bigger of the two reversals is Obama, who earlier this year had promised a filibuster to defeat the bill.
These are just facts -- facts about Barack Obama, the FISA bill he supports and which the Democratic Congress will approve today. Recall that James Comey testified last year that what he and other DOJ officials learned in 2004 about Bush's spying activities for the several years prior was so extreme, so unconscionable, so patently illegal that they all -- including even John Ashcroft -- threatened to resign en masse unless it stopped immediately. We still have no idea what those spying activities were. We know, though, that even the right-wing DOJ ideologues who approved of the illegal "Terrorist Surveillance Programs" that we know about found those activities indisputably illegal and wrong. But Barack Obama and the Democratic-led Congress will today enact a bill to immunize all of that, to protect the lawbreakers who were responsible.
As I've said many times before, there are clear differences between an Obama and McCain presidency. Denying that is just as irrational as those for whom the only political rule is Thou Shalt Not Speak Ill of Obama.
But it's equally clear that politicians like Obama are unable within the prevailing political establishment to do much to stop the continued growth of the lawless surveillance state and our two-tiered system of justice, even if they wanted to stop it, even if they were willing to expend political capital to take a stand against it. And Obama -- with his support for this wretched assault on the Constitution and the rule of law -- is demonstrating that, contrary to his many prior statements, these issues are anything but a priority for him (Larry Lessig: Obama aides say "the FISA compromise in the bill was a good one"). Differences between Republican and Democrats exist and are important in many cases, but those differences are often dwarfed by the differences between those entrenched in and dependent upon the Washington Establishment and those -- the vast, vast majority of American citizens -- who are not.
UPDATE: The Savannah Morning News has an article on the ads running against Democratic Rep. John Barrow.
The vote on the Dodd-Feingold-Leahy amendment to remove telecom immunity from the bill is taking place now. I will post the vote total and details as soon as it is done.
UPDATE II: The Dodd-Feingold amendment to remove telecom immunity from the bill just failed by a vote of 32-66.
I was mistaken about Obama's not showing up to vote (that was the case, as I understood it, when the vote was scheduled for yesterday). He is in the Senate and, as he said he would, just voted (along with Hillary Clinton) in favor of the amendment to remove telecom immunity from the bill.
From listening, these are the Democrats who have voted in favor of removing immunity from the bill: Akaka - Baucus - Biden - Bingaman - Boxer - Brown - Byrd - Cantwell - Cardin - Casey - Clinton - Dorgan - Durbin - Feingold - Harkin - Inyoue - Kerry - Klobuchar - Lautenberg - Leahy - Levin - Mendenez - Murray - Obama - Reed - Reid - Sanders (I) - Schuemer - Stabenow - Tester - Whitehouse -Wyden.
Every Republican voted against removing immunity (including Arlen Specter, who spent all day arguing against immunity). Democrats voting against removing immunity: Bayh - Carper - Conrad - Feinstein - Johnson - Kohl - Landrieu - Lincoln - McCaskill - Mikulski - Nelson (FL) - Nelson (Neb.) - Pryor - Rockefeller - Salazar - Webb.
Specter's amendment is next (to ban immunity if the spying was unconstitutional). Then they will vote on the Bingaman amendment (which I wrote about yesterday). They will both fail, and then they will vote on the final bill in its unchanged form.
UPDATE III: Specter's amendment -- merely to require the court to determine the constitutionality of the NSA spying program and condition immunity on a finding of constitutionality -- just failed 37-61. Obama voted in favor of the amendment, and Specter was the only Republican to do so.
All Republicans voted against, and these were the Democrats voting against: Bayh - Carper - Johnson - Landrieu - Lincoln - Mikulski - Nelson (FL) - Nelson (Neb.) - Pryor - Rockefeller - Salazar. [NOTE: I'm recording these roll calls from watching the proceedings, and so it's unlikely there are some errors and omissions. I will correct them as they are brought to my attention and will link to the official roll call vote once it is available. The Bingaman amendment is next.
Glenn Greenwald was previously a constitutional law and civil rights litigator in New York. He is the author of the New York Times Bestselling book "How Would a Patriot Act?," a critique of the Bush administration's use of executive power, released in May 2006. His second book, "A Tragic Legacy", examines the Bush legacy.
© Salon.com
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174 Comments so far
Show AllIt is such a sad state of affairs that the best the two "major" parties can come up with is two guys with the names McShame(a.k.a. McSame) and O'Shame'a(a.k.a. O'Same'a). All of the elected officials have sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America(Amerika?), or so they say. But since only twenty-eight senators did so in this FISA Amendment, which is a clear violation of the Fourth Amendment, the citiznes should speak up and ask for their resignations. As Martin Luther King, Jr, once said, "There comes a time when silence is betrayal." Let us truly be able in the future to say proudly, "Power to the people."
We the people do indeed have the power to affect change the politicians and corporations only have as much power as we allow them to have.
Every generation has a common enemy to confront. I pray that this issue is will make the masses come together for our common good. I have lived though several natural disasters and each time the beauty of common good folks coming together has been a more impressive than the storm. Let us all come together now in the face of this unnatural disaster.
We cannot afford to allow the nation we inherited to be stolen from us and our children. We must each make our voices heard and our power felt so that our prodigies may inherit a world better than we now have.
thepuffin July 10th, 2008 2:59 pm...Yes, but this would be self incriminating...and his pardon would be dependent upon who was elected..McCain..yes Obama..who knows...doubtful...Nader...no way.
Monroe, on the civil/criminal issue--
Bush can pardon the telecoms.
Yes, he can, as the SCOTUS has already ruled that private corporations have the same rights under our Constitution as our citizens.
Prove me wrong, somebody. I'd really, really be indebted to you--
Sipsey and Hamster (comments # 1 and 2 from July 9)--
GG points the finger at BHO and not the other, admittedly equally craven Dems, for a simple reason:
BHO was against immunity and vowed to filibuster it with Feingold.
Then he rolled over, like a whore in a gangbang.
The whore/gangbang analogy is nearly seamless, 'cept it's us, you and me, baby, that're getting screwed in every orifice.
Democracy was dead after the 2000 coup, and BHO dug it up and killed it again. Get real, get angry, and remember that none other than Thomas Jefferson wrote that the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Methinks we have reached that stage. All the rest is wanking.
tailcap July 10th, 2008 10:54 am
"Sir Thomas More do you really think that Obama isn't going to be the Democratic candidate? If not him then who?"
Thanks for the promotion!
Its not that I don't think he won't be as much as the fact that if he continues on his whirling dervish track, he can't win. If the majority of delegates decide he can't they could very well change horses.
Its more on the order of he is not the nominee yet. And he is looking more and more inexperienced. He's offending the base every time he turns around and he keeps spitting in the face of the vety people he must have to win. Clinging, etc...that idiotic learn Spanish remark is guaranteed to lose him votes, etc.
I haven't decided, but he's not looking good.
By the way, a late answer to your question....
Leftist are (to me at least) our version of Neocons. Rigid idealogues, intolerant, usually multicuturalists and usually a Marxist or Socialist bent.
Obviously many can have parts of their philosophy without being a leftist just as conservatives can have some of the neocons values or beliefs and not be one. Its a sum of the parts thing.
I'll try to explain more if that doesn't clarify it. I agree with Starr that liberals are not progressives if that helps?
Just remember....with age, one is easily confused!
ezeflyer July 10th, 2008 11:29 am
Swiftboat our only hope of getting rid of the Bush
-This is arguably one of the weakest arguments that can be made, that of the swiftboat.
It reveals the desperation of Democratic Party apologists and as Glenn Greenwald so aptly puts:
"It's been quite disturbing to watch them turn on a dime — completely reverse everything they claimed to believe"
-The very reasons these so-called liberals attacked Bush are now being justified as "swiftboat" attacks. Personally I find this line of reasoning beneath contempt.
Obama went back on his promise to filibuster this bad piece of legislation that Obama himself condemned. Explain why Obama promised to fillisbuter against Telecom immunity and but now he is for it?
Explain why when Obama was against it the Democratic Party apologists weren't defending Telecom immunity.
I don't envy you people. You have the unenviable task of justifying all these sell outs through mind-boggling, mental-contortions and acrobatics which in the end are simply unprincipled capitulations to the establishment.
Mr. "bush," your comments are not really a fair portrayal. Perhaps the problem with the "new kind of politics" label is that people take that to mean whatever they want it to mean. Well it probably doesn't mean what you think it does. And it's not "new politics" be an ideological liberal crusader.
And what's with all the harsh dichotomies about his grandma? Can't you be both critical and appreciative of your family members? Don't you guys have families?
A savvy politician, Obama has measured correctly the hurdle he must surmount and is moving expeditiously to alter an image of him forged by his own past associations and policy positions. In three weeks, he has jettisoned his new politics in a stunning display of raw pragmatism.
A prime minister must be "a good butcher," H.H. Asquith told Winston Churchill on naming him First Lord of the Admiralty, "and there are several who need to be pole-axed now." Four years later, Asquith would pole-axe Churchill over the Dardanelles disaster.
Obama is not lacking in this capacity that Richard Nixon, too, felt was an indispensable attribute of a statesman.
Samantha Power was tossed off Barack's sledge after calling Hillary a "monster" and suggesting Barack's Iraq timetable was not set in concrete. Robert Malley was canned for having talked to Hamas, though that was his portfolio at a think tank for conflict resolution.
Barack pole-axed pastor Wright and, though he said he could no more repudiate his church than his family, shortly after the second time Wright went off, Barack severed all ties to Trinity United.
Barack has spoken of how he cringed at the racist reaction of his white grandmother after she was accosted by a black man on a bus. Grandma has now been rehabilitated in a new ad as the loving woman who inculcated good old Kansas values into little Barack.
When his own surrogate, Gen. Wesley Clark, suggested John McCain's war service did not automatically qualify him as presidential timber, a storm erupted. Barack proceeded to cut the general's legs off.
His had been one of a few Senate voices to speak of Palestinian suffering. But Barack's address to the Israeli lobby read like it was plagiarized from the collected works of Ze'ev Jabotinsky.
When the Supreme Court declared every citizen has a Second Amendment right to a handgun, Barack stood with Justice Scalia. When Scalia said the court ought not to have taken away Louisiana's right to execute child rapists, Barack was with him again.
When Congress voted the telecoms immunity from prosecution for colluding with the Bush administration in wiretapping citizens, Barack stood with Bush and the telecoms. Fearing it might cost him his huge money-raising advantage over McCain, Barack tossed campaign finance reform over the side.
In Ohio, Barack was a populist opponent of NAFTA. He is now a free-trader. Yet when economic adviser Austan Goolsbee told the Canadians pretty much the same thing, Barack disinherited him.
As July 4 approached, Barack gratuitously dissed his friends at MoveOn.org for their "General Betray Us" ad mocking Gen. David Petraeus. And that flag pin Barack got rid of after 9-11, calling it a "substitute ... for real patriotism"? It's back on the lapel.
Last week, Barack said that, after he meets with Petraeus and his field commanders in Iraq, he might "refine" his commitment to withdraw all U.S. combat brigades within 16 months.
And finally, Obama has co-opted President Bush's faith-based initiative and claimed it as his own.
Pat Buchanan
However, with the new law, the telecoms might actually have to show the details of what they did to prove it was in conformity with their gov't orders.
___________________________
On the contrary, the law requires only that the telecoms bring a note from their parent-- whoops, I mean the Attorney General-- asserting that what has been done, has been done for the good of the State.
No discovery, no disclosure, no nothin'. It's a Get Out of Suit Free card. It was intended as such.
And it confers surveillance powers to the Executive Branch which vitiates the Fourth Amendment.
It's always bittersweet when someone like ezeflyer comes along shortly after a comment and proves my point. There Be Dragons!
RICHARD YOUNG: Damning evidence, excellent case, counselor!
FUNECONS: I was thinking the same thing (and have been for some time).
ARVY: Excellent post.
ezeflyer, your rhetoric does not scare me. I am a pragmatic progressive aged 25, no republican spy or 'zionist conspirator' or whatever.
Also, one problem pointed out with blanket immunity is that we won't discover the details of what they did. However, with the new law, the telecoms might actually have to show the details of what they did to prove it was in conformity with their gov't orders. That's far different from the entire grounds for suit being categorically dismissed.
A circular firing squad organized by every Republican shill, Zionist and conservative leftist posting here.
Salaried reactionary forces of the oligarchy, fanatical Zionists and Christofascists here joined by some pie in the sky liberals, all trying to Swiftboat our only hope of getting rid of the Bush albatross are to be expected.
Email bombs, progressive website storming and corporate media blitzes are an integral part of the regressive cabal's subterfuge.
RichM, you do not seem to appreciate the distinction here between civil and criminal liability. The new law does NOT in ANY WAY exempt telecoms from CRIMINAL prosecution. Sorry for yelling, but everyone seems to be acting very absolutist about this complex issue.
monroe - I just told you the answer: a Telecom can get suits against it dismissed merely by showing a letter from the Bush admin vouching that everything was "legal" -- in the opinion of the Bush admin.
Arry-- There is no answer to the point about criminal prosecution.
monroe (10:54 am), apparently a new poster at CD, writes "Don't you people realize that you're only defending potentially 40 plaintiffs getting lots of money? The criminal penalties are still there to protect us. Knee jerk reactionaries, do some research!!"
- Every single sentence here is wrong. What's at issue is not the potential rewards for plaintiffs, but the existence of penalties for the telecoms & for the Bush administration. Mr 'monroe' claims that "The criminal penalties are still there to protect us," even though (as Greenwald has made clear):
1) the new FISA law enables any telecom to get lawsuits against it dismissed, merely by showing written evidence from the Bush administration that the domestic spying operation was legal; and
2) getting these lawsuits dismissed blocks all possibility of determining the details of how the spying program was run, thereby getting the Bush admin itself off the hook by making it impossible to ascertain what they did.
In other words, Mr 'monroe' is either just a stupid idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, or an Obama apologist trying to protect Obama by spreading disinformation. // Hilariously, he yells at everyone else to "Do some research," calling them "knee jerk reactionaries" -- when he's the real reactionary.
I don't understand. If the telecoms are now required to prove that their actions were following orders and assurances from the government, then we will have to see those actions in court for them to prove it. There's no coverup.
monroe -- Please read beyond the first paragraph before commenting.
The "Thou Shall Not Speak Ill Of Obama" statement does not explain the real reason why some people are objecting . 1.Take out the the immunity . What will happen then is a couple million legal actions will begin and during the legal actions the telecom law breakers will be asked , whose info did they give to the other law breakers and what law breakers asked for it and what did THEY do with it . Then we will have more legal activities involving our central government . There will be blood everywhere that we will all enjoy the taste of . The office of our president going back to the end of the Carter term has steadily declined in world wide public opinion and anyone seeking to step in to that position would like to arrive there with as little stench surrounding the place as possible .
Thomas More July 10th, 2008 9:58 am writes "I would like to remind you that Obama is not yet the nominee. Things change."
-This reminds me of RSJ saying the day before yesterday that Obama hadn't voted for the FISA capitulation-yet, when it was abundantly clear to almost everyone, except him, that he was going to.
Sir Thomas More do you really think that Obama isn't going to be the Democratic candidate? If not him then who?
Don't you people realize that you're only defending potentially 40 plaintiffs getting lots of money? The criminal penalties are still there to protect us. Knee jerk reactionaries, do some research!!
I went to http://mybarackobama.com and started a group called "Obama lost my vote today." I have yet to hear whether or not their administrators will approve it.
I guess I will be writing in Kucinich after all.
The author of this article killed his own point in his first paragraph. He proved that unauthorized spying is a serious criminal offense, a FELONY in fact, with stiff fines and prison sentences. Thus no accountability, rule of law, checks and balances, etc. have been lost. The only losers are the plaintiffs in these lawsuits. Oh no, some persnickety people won't get loads of money, boo hoo!!
...punishable by up to 5 years in prison...
This now applies to our entire government, all branches and all parties.
Our 'Corptocracy' is so corrupt that we need to start anew with another Constitutional Convention perhaps to follow the example of India and Pakistan but with one part for sane humans and another part for Evangelicals.
Blaming Greenwald is for idiots. It is precisely "blaming the messenger" -- no more, no less.
Elderlady July 10th, 2008 9:11 am writes "Sudddenly, we have a bill brought to the floor of the Senate, which, regardless of how the Democratic nominee voted..."
-She seems to say that this whole FISA ordeal is some kind of masterful Democratic-Republican plot to sink the hopes of electing a Democratic president. Why they did this she can only ask, "Who knows?"
She even seems to fault Glenn Greenwald for reporting on it. As Glenn points out, "it's the fault of those who point out what Obama is doing, rather than Obama" Like it's Glenn's fault that Obama disgraced himself and went back on his promise to filibuster a really bad bill that legalizes illegality.
"Give Obama his due. He voted."
-why? Is is not his job to represent his state and vote on bills? My boss never thanks me for showing up to work. It's my job.
I think what Elderlady really laments is that Obama has been unmasked as the calculating, dishonest and unprincipled politician that he his, She would have been much happier if Obama didn't have to vote and thereby would not have to reveal himself. Because that way, he could've remained camouflaged, and that would have increased his chances of winning. Winning for some, is after all, all that matters, by hook or by crook.
Eric J-D -- We are being buried by small-picture thinkers. What it amounts to is that principles are the fruit of large-scale thinking, and the lack of principles we see constantly is the best indication of the success the corporate and marketing campaign to dumb down America into believing that profit, pleasure, and security are enough. (Consequently, we have been conditioned to ignore, even accept, hypocrisy and lies.)
Much of the (true) conflict of our times can be characterized as a struggle between principles and expedient small-minded lack of principles. The latter have so far manipulated and devastated the landscape that principles appear quaint in the context, generating a frustrated anger on the other side.
Ignoring the question for the moment of whether or not Obama should be elected, his cynical manipulation of once cherished principles is unforgivable, in my opinion, and completely in line with the diminishing life of a dying culture.
Leadership is derived from principles. Nader has them. McKinney has them. Unfortunately, principles have been marginalized in a much larger process than what's happening in this election.
Well, wobblie-- you were a little more direct that I would have been, but it IS exasperating to read the various inane and groundless characterization of Glenn Greenwald's perspective. I understand that Greenwald-vilifying is more popular than ever at DailyKos, which apparently remains a bastion of Obamania.
Lesser-evilism thinking is at best typically linear (two-dimensional), and uses a shallow zone of focus, or depth of field. Even when such thinkers are sincere and well-intended, this results in a lesser-evil Big Picture much like the maps that were drawn before Columbus and the other explorers finally circumnavigated the globe.
I'm sure you've seen them. Europe itself is usually recognizable, although the detail is less reliable the further the mapmakers got from home. So there are lots of white spaces marked with information from myth and folklore, e.g. "There Be Dragons".
The L-E mapmakers are the same. When they contemplate the mysterious and sinister Unknown, they rely on a well-worn array of "There Be Dragons" rationalizations to orient themselves. Like Europeans during the Renaissance, they assume that they themselves are the standard by which to measure all of mankind.
And like the medieval Church, they have an entire lexicon with which to curse or condemn non-believers, heretics, and apostates: "purists", "idealists", "narcissists", "elitists"-- leaving aside common insults like "idiot" and "moron". Individuals like Greenwald, or Nader, are dismissed or excoriated as "narcissists" and "egomaniacs".
Elderlady, who is obviously fed up with Greenwald's prolific and consistently rigorous reporting and analysis, implies that she's actually read all of his writings. Yet she insinuates that he's somehow disparaging Obama in order to promote Clinton's agenda. Anyone truly familiar with Glenn's perspective knows that this is simply ludicrous-- not to put too fine a point on it.
The "non-essential legislation" eviscerates the Fourth Amendment. It not only confers sweeping surveillance powers upon the Executive Branch-- it also provides a "Get Out of Jail Free" card to corporate criminals and government misfeasors. And the professor of constitutional law chose to put gas in the getaway car.
But all that the knee-jerk Democrats can make of this is that people who should know better are insanely and/or irresponsibly picking on the best prospect that's come up from the farm team since JFK.
There Be Dragons!
Obama lost my vote today.
Elderlady July 10th, 2008 9:11 am
I would like to remind you that Obama is not yet the nominee. Things change.
Elderlady
have some self-respect and recognize that obama is a scam. stop bashing greenwald
Obama and the democrats suck!
face it democrats or help continuing to destroy our country
I remember a scene from the movie "Enemy of the State" in which the character played by Gene Hackman explains to the character played by Will Smith that the government had used the telephone companies to spy on its own citizens since the invention of the transistor in 1947. Gee, it's just a movie--a piece of fiction, but doesn't all of this MI-complex tyranny all seem to date from about the end of WWII? If the Democrats and Republicans have been in lockstep since about that time, then what difference does voting for either/or make. There is no either/or. There is only an either/and. It would be nice if Congress or a democratic administration would take a courageous stand for freedom, an ideal which is approximated legislatively in the form of civil rights taking precedence over security of the economic empire. But I think it may be quixotic to think that the American experiment still has a chance to succeed.
What has been the biggest puzzle to me is this: Why was this bill even scheduled for a vote, before the election in November? This crap, with the administration has been going on for almost seven years. Suddenly, it is critical -- right now --- that we stop it. Suddenly it is critical -- right now -- that we debate it in he House and the Senate of the United States. Suddenly it is DAMNED CRITICAL that we form a circular firing squad, of all of the above, cited in Mr. Greenwald's article, to make this a litmus test for the nominee of the Democratic Party. Suddenly, he no longer believes in, or respects the Constitution of the United States. Sudddenly, we have a bill brought to the floor of the Senate, which, regardless of how the Democratic nominee voted, was going to create, at minimum, an ackward situation, requiring hours of explanations. Hours of time taken away from discussing the economy, the war, Medicare, Social Security, Jobs, the high price of gasoline, and other pocketbook issues important to the American people.
Mr. Greenwald has given considerable thought to this. Lord knows, we have read his thoughts enough. So have I. I know, and I know that he knows, that Harry Reid could have let this damned bill languish in the Senate hopper for a few more months.
So, why did we have the FISA debate and vote yesterday? Why did the Democratic "leadership" bring it to the floor? You have a candidate that by all indications, will be the next president of the United States (barring any unforseen circumstances) such as the absolute furor being raised by the Glenn Greenwald's of the planet, over Obama's vote on a totally non-essential piece of legislation.
Who knows? Could it have been so Clinton could be on record as voting "no."?
Give Obama his due. He voted. McCain was a no show.
Once again, the Democrats seemed poised to snatch defeat from the jaws of Victory, in a presidential election.
Thanks Glenn, I guess Hillary really is positioning herself for 2012. All America owes you a huge debt of gratitude for your vigilance on this matter. America couldn't have stood having a Democrat in the White House.
We do so very well with a Republican president, and Congress.
Another wrinkle here---IF Obama gets elected, watch everybody who now supports this FISA bill do a complete cosmic 180-degree turn "back to the rule of law and limits on the President's powers"....After all will the GOP be happy to know that Dimocraps can listen in at will? Of course not....
What to do?
Join Nader/Gonzalez - the candidacy that will shift the power from the corporations back into the hands of the people.
We strongly oppose the wiretap surveillance legislation that Obama and McCain support.
We stand strongly with the American people and for the Constitution.
The Nader/Gonzalez campaign is now at six percent in the most recent CNN poll.
We're in the middle of a fundraising drive right now to put Nader/Gonzalez on the ballot in 45 states by September 20.
Help us get there now.
Go to votenader.org.
Someone above (I've forgotten who) made the very good point that we need to look at the bigger picture. That's precisely what makes Obama's capitulation (I'll leave aside the rest of the DP leadership) so especially galling.
Obama's vote for the revised FISA bill reveals him to be (as if anyone doubted) a small-picture viewer. He's concerned about winning the presidency so he casts his lot with the rest of the craven congress in support of a bill that is an affront to the fourth ammendment protections guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
That's small-minded, small-picture thinking, folks.
Winning the White House is far less significant than protecting the Constitution, or so, at least, the founders thought.
don't kid yourself for a second that this bill has anything to do with national security. Bush didn't go to the FISA court for wiretapping because he is spying on the Dems for political reasons, getting insider trader info from wallstreet, and basically using it to advance his administration's causes any way he can. The original FISA act even allows for "after the fact" approvals, so if it was all legitimate, why not bring it before FISA? Because he is spying on us, folks! And especially, he is spying on the Democrats in congress.
Why do you think, despite the overwhelming mandate of 2006, polls beyond belief supporting impeachment, ending the war, etc. coupled with the lowest approval rating of any president EVER, the Dems can't find it within themselves to do the people's bidding -- even in an election year! Because they have something on everyone now, that's why. Spying on folks gives you power over them.
Look at how the Bush administration attempted to bully the UN to go along with its war. It wiretapped the members of the security council's offices and intercepted emails and phone calls. It threatened to withdraw support and aid as the stick, and offered lucrative deals if they went along as the carrot. Do you think they do it differently at home?
"The price of freedom is constant viligence." -Thomas Jefferson
Seems America we have dropped the ball..And, we may very soon pay a price heaver then we ever imagined possible.
Still hoping!
This is the demoralizing of the populace, as Naomi Klein likes to point to: the shock doctrine. I think this may be the real conspiracy. It's much like a common management strategy to reduce payroll and unemployment costs: constant negative environment of pressure, huge workloads, divisive policies to alienate people from one another to the point where people just say fuck you and leave. The twist is that all of the above on a national scale essentially isolates, numbs and freezes action by confused individuals who otherwise might start to think about putting a bunch of arrogant, condescending politicians where they belong.
As a former professor of constitutional law and long-time civil rights lawyer, I can see no excuse whatsoever for Senator Obama's vote in favor of the FISA amendments. Here is a man who graduated from Harvard Law School and taught constitutional law, voting for a bill which obviously is designed not only to legitimate President Bush's 30+ felonious authorizations of electronic surveillance expressly prohibited by FISA, but also to force the dismissal of several pending lawsuits likely to expose the President's conspiracy with private telecommunications companies to violate the statutory and Fourth Amendment rights of US citizens like you and me. Senator Obama was free to vote against this atrocious bill, but he chose instead to join the Republican minority in effectively condoning the President's criminal conduct. This is the same "agent for change" who recently appeared before AIPAC and took the incredible position that Israel is entitled to retain the portion of Jeruselem it has been illegally occupying in defiance of several UN Security Council resolutions since 1967 -- an unprecedented position which no US President (including George W. Bush) has been willing to take. At the same appearance before AIPAC candidate Obama also emphasized that a preemptive military strike against Iran (to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons which the most recent NIE on Iran concluded "with a high degree of confidence" Iran has not been attempting to acquire since 2003) must not be taken "off the table" -- even though the US signature of the UN Charter legally took preemptive warfare "off the table" for the US in 1946. Senator Obama has also made clear his hostility to essentially all of the freely elected Latin American governments which have recently replaced right-wing oligarchies and dictatorships long favored and supported by past US governments (both Republican and Democratic). At 77 years of age, I am sick of voting for "the lesser of the evils." I will not vote for any politician who is demonstrable unwilling to act in consonance with his sworn oath "to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic" -- and obviously Senator Obama is unwilling to honor his oath of office. If he had a modicum of integrity, he would take illegal aggressive war "off the table" and put impeachment of our felonious President "on the table." A constitutional scholar he may be; but a defender of the Constitution he certainly is not. Political expediency is no more an excuse for Senator Obama's trashing of our Fourth Amendment rights than it was for his fellow Professor John Yoo's trashing of the Fifth Amendment due process rights of accused "terrorists" at Guantanamo Bay and other secret US prisons around the globe.
I want to tell you how it's gonna be
Your gonna give your love to me
your gonna love me night and day
you know love not fade away
My love is bigger than a Cadillac
I tried to show you but you drive me back
Let's hope we got more love than they got hate, drag, because right now the machine has us on the ropes.
Stolen elections, lied into war, a murdered Wellstone, 9-11 was an inside job.
And it will get worse, then worse, then old crippled people will live under bridges as 150 million dollar Gulfstreams scream past.
And then it will end with light and blood and death and birth.
America will be the first industral capitalist economy to experience a true revolution; with a radical downward redistribution of wealth.
Love Not Fade Away. I'm on the ropes, but I have not tapped out.
Love.
obama voted for powers HE WILL HAVE in a year, at the expense of america and americans. hes well on his way to proving he's no antiwar pussy. no surprises here, just a very sad day for rule of law and freedom
Hello tailcap; it seems to come down to a combination of, 1. reality on the ground, and 2, conviction and principle.
The Obama 'question' if you will, forces us into lesseroftwoweviism IF we want to vote for a candidate who might, possibly, actually be elected.
It is a Cheap Trick; we're boxed in by an imperialist machine of such dimension and momentum and evil and POWER that we are close to helpless.
Anyhow, using yur analogy, if Stalin ran against McCain, who would you vote for?
Be fair tailcap, if it was absolutely only going to be one or the other.
See, I know; For intellectual/spiritual people, like near all on this thread, this is repugnant and they reject it. They say, screw it, I won't play a rigged game. Well leaving the feild ani't gonna help.
..........It was your comparison, Now Stalin or McCain?
Thanks for wording your posts humanly.
Well, I can't tell lies, 'cause they're listening to me.
And when I fall asleep, bet they're spying on me tonight, tonight.
'Cause they're waiting for me.
They're looking for me.
Ev'ry single night they're driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.
I try to sleep, they're wide awake, they won't leave me alone.
They don't get paid to take vacations, or let me alone.
They spy on me, I try to hide, they won't let me alone.
They persecute me, they're the judge and jury all in one.
-Cheap Trick
Obama-
"Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people," he wrote. "There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders."
-but, okay, damn it, I'll vote for it.
dreamertoo July 10th, 2008 1:07 am
So the alternative was not to pass the FISA bill and Glenn Greenwald's blog would provide the surveillance necessary to protect American citizens from another attack?
So you think its acceptable that the US govt can spy on American citizens, acceptable, in the name of our security?
Benjamin Franklin once wrote:
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
It will begin with our phone conversations and emails and then it will go to the point when the police and/or military can enter your home without cause or warrant in the name of what.... security?
Is that a world YOU want to live in? Just as long as you think you're safe right?
I'd rather take my chances and have my privacy and know that my constitutional rights are being upheld by the officers of govt then have them eavesdrop on me for my own safety! And isnt it the job of the NSA, CIA and HLS to protect us from terrorists? Did you stop to think that if the govt is spying on US, the citizens that we're being considered as the terrorists?
I mean whats next, thought crimes (i.e., HR1955 and S1959)
hmmmmm, I wonder what these fearful people will be willing to give up after that?
Maybe if they keep on believing in our current state of affairs of govt, that we'll be safe? And if that's the case, who will save us from our "saviors"?
.
http://www.votenader.org/blog/2008/07/09/telecom-immunity/
Nader Audio on Telecom Immunity
Posted by Ralph Nader on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 at 12:55:00 PM
.
-Cheap Trick
If the FISA bill had not passed,
and surveillance was not authorized,
and the much much much much much worse attack that has been predicted by the Administration took place between now and the November election,
and Democrats were blamed for it,
and John McCain was elected President,
and what's left of the Constitution was destroyed,
and democracy no longer existed in America and soon after nowhere else in the world,
and the earth was plunged into 10,000 years of a Dachau like darkness,
people would still be able to read Glenn's blog wouldn't they?
The outrage amongst progressives over Obama's recent, abrupt turn to the right seems to have prompted him to ignore the bunch of hired Machiavellis at his campaign and to listen to the American people instead. I still think his basic orientation is progressive, but he's been the willing victim of some very politically, as well as morally, unsound advice.
Unless he gets back on message, the Democratic Convention will be a pretty tepid affair, and the record turnout he enjoyed in the primaries will be a thing of the past.
Please, please, please don't misinterpret our leaderships wise embrace of unity.
I believe every American dollar still states "United we stand, divided we fall!" and/or "In god we trust!"
Listen-up America!: If you don't like the Obama movie, you can always complain about the pop corn. . . about the pop corn. . .
Does anyone still believe in Change We Can Believe In? It was a crock of shit then and it's a steaming crock now.
So the alternative was not to pass the FISA bill and Glenn Greenwald's blog would provide the surveillance necessary to protect American citizens from another attack?
The tenacious and bloody claws of the govorporation have taken another victim. We are doomed no matter who sits in the Oval Office next year. If something is disliked by the wet workers, another round of anthrax will make it to various offices; sickness & death will be eminent.
We are doomed.
We are doomed.
We are doomed.
We are doomed.
We are doomed.
How about retro-active immunity for the white House staff responsible for firing the federal attorneys , who were fired for not carrying out the political goals of the white House operatives, ie. Rove.
So here's something just as disturbing that's getting NO media play. Google and YouTube S1959 and HR 1955. Between what happened today with FISA and if this bill ever passes (and since it passed in the house under HR 1955 I cant see why it wouldn't pass s1959 in the senate) we're in BIG BIG trouble. Bigger trouble then we are right at this very moment? You bet your sweet aunt fanny we are!!!
Do any of you remember the "recall" of governor Gray Davis in California that allowed his removal from office? If a governor can be recalled then why not a senator? The American people voted for change in 2006 when they made the Dems in control of congress. The promises that they made have all been just that, promises and nothing more. The "say anything" environment, which Washington has adopted for the purpose of elections, has become very transparent. But we the people just keep putting up with it. WHY?
RECALL RECALL RECALL!!!! From Pelosi on down!!!
And for everyone that's rolling around in fear, have you forgotten who you are? You are an American damn it!!! We, the brave, the free, have forgotten this very important thing. It would have been nice to have gotten the telecoms to court and get our pound of flesh but this is not happening today (some other day, possibly) but for now we have the power of our dollar!
I posted it somewhere here at CD today and I'll go look it up and repost it. But we can and have a responsibility to spend our dollars wisely! If the premise that money is power then we have the power. WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY GET THEIR MONEY FROM? Us! So if you oppose what the telecoms did, find out which ones didn't and move your service to them. And on it goes. Find out what corporations do what and sponsor whom and spend your money where your morality guides you. Try improving your local economy. Shop at farmers markets and ranchers and so much more. But, BUT this would mean that we, as great Americans, would have to stop being so lazy and afraid and actually DO something to provoke "change we can believe in"! We can believe in ourselves right? We MUST stop waiting for a politician to save us, because as it stands today, this will never happen.
And for those of you that have forgotten that we the people have the power to do so, please read the following (just a bit of a memory refresher for those of us that may have forgotten this important work)
***************************
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security-
***********************
So blame Obama, blame congress, blame Bush but at the end of the day we have absolutely NO ONE to blame but ourselves for allowing this to happen. For allowing our govt to get so big that they forgot the number one premise, that they work for WE THE PEOPLE, we the people just need to remember that we can FIRE our govt officials if they do not abide by the tenants of the law of the land! Because if we don't do something very VERY soon, there will be a nice FEMA camp waiting for you and your loved ones!
what a depressing string of comments. no one's saying anything on here anymore. just reactionary BS from all sides.
Daniel David:
I think you're just a true believer. I haven't seen you make a single argument, much less a compelling one, as to why a person should vote for Obama over McCain. The only thing I've seen you proffer is the Supreme Court. It has no substance.
Here's a wake-up call DD. The Supreme court is going facist no matter what. Obama, McCain, whatever. They are practically the same guy. I have yet to find a single distinguishing difference.
So spare us your opinion. I don't think it counts for much.
In any event, I will not vote for Obama no matter what. I will enjoy watching you complain about how Nader, or McKinney caused Obama to "lose." Well guess what? He lost this election all on his own, and has nobody, NOBODY to blame but himself.
Make It Stop at 6:47 says, "From what I can determine, this bill is NOT GREAT by any means, but it isn't the evil consitiutional attack that many would like it to be for whatever reason."
Have you read this article or the others in Greenwald's series? Apparently not. I'm not going to insult you by asking whether or not you are familiar with the Fourth Amendment.
What exactly would be a constitutional evil in your judgement or do you not have the "time and attention span" to explore that question either?
Another relevant question is, "What do you believe is the responsibility of a citizen in the face of a blatant attack on the Constitution?" Possibly you believe it is...nothing? Leave it up to Big Brother Obama to sort it out?
How about, "How much of your constititional rights are you willing to 'compromise'?"
BTW, your conception of justice is a little shaky if you think it is a matter of "revenge".
So, when should we "proliferate a third party"? Why not now? Big Brother Obama won't be looking over your shoulder. Neither will the third party. You can vote for whomever you prefer. So what's stopping you? (That's a rhetorical question. You don't seem like third party material to me.)
Your posting seemed like Obama campaign boilerplate to me. Am I right?
lisa3210peace
Hi Lisa, defending Obama is a hard sell. For us he's done. The only thing left for his supporters is lesseroftwoevilism. The problem is that it's not a strong argument. All you can do is point out how much worse McCain is. Another difficulty is that if lesseroftwoevilism is taken to its logical conclusion, then Stalin running against McCain would oblige you to produce the exact same arguments, but in favor of McCain.
Lesseroftwoevilism is a hard sell Lisa. Peace to you.
Cool. The Medicare Bill passed.
49 Democrats voted for it.
18 Republicans.
This has been the pattern throughout my life. The Dem's are no revolutionaries, but are not blatantly predacious RELATIVE to the sickening Repub's who tried their best to block this bill.
The story is on The Hill.com RichM. OR THE FRONT PAGE OF THE NYT'S. YOU NEVER HEARD OF IT?
You don't have time to blog. start reading.
There's no excusing Obama's actions, morally or hell even politically. I don't get it, the Republicans would call him a pansy weak-kneed LIEberal no matter what; he's just pissed off his base.
I'm still voting for him, though, because he is far, far better than McCain in nearly every respect.
RichM; You admit you know nothing/don't know about the Deomocrat medicare bill.
That is pretty uninformed.
You see it matters. It will make a difference if Republican Obstructionism to it can be overcome. Yikes-it has been Rish!
If your not too busy, google; democrat republican medicare
The first hit is by The Hill.com
Because you admitted you knew nothing of this basic news THEN lectured me about it. Thats 'law and order' thinking.
It's fun to blog, but a little more meanigful when you've read the news.
ON TO LAW AND ORDER!!!!
-Thank you Glenn Greenwald, you very much ROCK!
How completely do you have to relinquish your critical faculties at Barack Obama's altar in order to get yourself to think that way?
-well said
The type of capitulation and complicity which Jay Rockefeller and Steny Hoyer embraced is exactly what progressives have spent the last seven years scathingly attacking.
-When Republicans do it the "liberals" cry out, but when Obama does it many CD bloggers defend him to the bitter end- here!
he supported this "compromise," when these issues were suddenly relegated to nothing more than inconsequential,
-I've read these exact type of posts right here!
It's been quite disturbing to watch them turn on a dime — completely reverse everything they claimed to believe
-there are number of bloggers here that fit this mold- you know who you are!
that Obama is just another calculating, unprincipled politician.
-I've been saying it here a for long time
"Come on, who really cares about that issue? Does anyone think the left is going to vote for McCain rather than Obama?
-get the nomination first, then run to the righties for the general election, the saps won't care
there are clear differences between an Obama and McCain
-even I admit that, though the differences are not that great policy-wise
policy that Obama listens to and follows
-not his own man, has no moral compass
flips eat away at the most important asset Obama has
-had
I can't count the number of emails I've received demanding that I stop criticizing Obama
-Not Glenn Greenwald, he won't cave, stands tall!
it's the fault of those who point out what Obama is doing, rather than Obama
-you figure
In Obamaworld, apparently wrecking the Fourth Amendment is roughly equivalent to ridiculing some obscure rapper.
-big man Obama
Even if Obama had kept his word and filibustered against FISA I still would have seen through him as a sell out for voting to fund the war. Ironically this doesn't seem to bother his supporters either.
And that's why I call em Democraps.
Yes the Democraptic party... what an alternative to the RepubLICKlans. Oh yeah...
Look folks, the battle was lost in the House. Over 100 Democraps, including both Democraps from my home state of Kansas, Moore and Boyda, voted for the bill. Gee, I wonder if Sprint had anything to do with it?
I had already refused to vote for Moore based on his support for the Iraq invasions (Yeah, he was "duped" into voting for the war - but now that we're occupiers, he just keeps on voting for the occupation). And Bodya? Can't get her arms around the DOD fast enough. What's a little wiretapping among friends?
Obama has once more proven that his call for change is more like the Who statement - meet the new boss, same as the old boss. He could've led on this issue. Forced the Democraps to join with him or expose themselves. Yes, he would've put his leadership skills on the line. Tough. But asking Democraps to support their presumed nominee would have forced even Jay Rockefeller and Diane Finestein into a corner. Vote against their presidential nominee in a close election? Talk about pulling down one's proverbial pants!
But no, Obama refused to play Candid Camera. Instead, he pays lip service and then gives up our Constitution. This from a former law professor who knows better!
And what has been done in the name of corporate facism? Gutting the 4th amendment? Wish the damage was only limited to that. But the 5th amendment too was gutted. I mean, you can now incrimnate yourself by using a telephone for chrissakes!
None of these laws are limited to terrorism. That's the big lie. Almost all information gathered can be passed on to local police departments. Your life is now an open book for law enforcement to read any time they want to. Thanks Obama! Thanks Webb! Thanks McKaskill! The latter two rumored to be VEEP candidates.... Thanks Finestein. You're a disgrace to California. Thanks Pelosi - hope Cindy beats the Imperial Majesty off you. Thanks Hoyer - You and Pelosi two peas in a pod - both graduates of the House "Intelligence" Committee (Otherwise known as the Committee to Gut the Constitution).
I will not be voting for any of you this year. I will choose to cast my vote for either Ralph Nader, Green candidate Cynthia McKinney or Socialist candidate Brian Moore. Brian Moore is running on a platform that includes, among many other progressive things, the abolishment of the "CIA, NSA, Homeland Security Agency and all other covert warfare institutions...." To see his complete platform, go to the Saturday July 5 posting at this site: http://liberalpro.blogspot.com/.
"A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!" Yes, they've given the kingdom away to protect good old fashioned corporate greed.
To lisa3210peace (9:02 pm) --
"RichM; No. There are grey areas, shades of differences between the two parties...."
- I never said there weren't. In fact, I specifically said the D's specialize in posturing as defenders of "The Little Guy," while the R's are unabashedly & openly the direct advocates of the rich. This is a big difference, accounting for the Dems' "kinder & gentler" (but entirely fake & cynical) rhetoric.
"...For an example from today's headlines; The REPUBLICANS are cutting/blocking doctor's Medicaid remuneration. This HURTS THE POOR.."
- I haven't heard about this yet, but I'm certain the Dems will docilely go along with it.
"...Well RichM, that effort to the extent it is being fought is being fought by the Democrats AND THAT EFFORT WILL HELP THE POOR relative to TODAY'S Republican RAPE...."
- That "extent" is going to be minimal, feeble & totally insincere. It won't help the poor a bit, any more than the Dems have helped the million or so innocents we've murdered in Iraq & Afghanistan.
"...And RichM you passed on a question earlier: Do you think Cheney either would or could not blackmail senators in his way?..."
- I think he would & could, but is well aware that he doesn't really have to, because the Dems grovel at his feet so willingly, anyway. This in turn is because they share the same class interests he does. And it's not just Cheney -- as I said above, no Democrats have seriously stood up against Republicans in at least the last 4 decades. Even during Watergate (which most people wrongly conceive of as a time where "the system worked"), the truth is that Nixon was not charged with his most serious abuses of power -- like the secret bombing of Cambodia. The Dems let him get away scot-free with that, just like today's Dems never tried to stop the atrocity in Iraq, & just like the 1980's Dems let Reagan get away with his crimes in El Salvador & Nicaragua.
"...Note too; If REPUBLICANS had not MURDERED DEMOCRAT WELLSTONE, our congress and world would be much different...."
- It's childish & naive of you to believe that. Wellstone was one of the few good Democrats, but he was no better than Kucinich or Feingold. And those guys have done nothing to change the general trajectory of things. Having Wellstone there would be like having Feingold there. He would say some nice things, but it would make no difference.
Obama can be greatful that, in November, the Supreme Court hangs in the balance. Otherwise, I would cast a write-in vote for my departed sister. Obama is clearly the master of change; I think it has been a change in the too frequent art of deception.
RICH M: I see you taking over for Jack McCoy on "Law and Order." I love your reasoning powers!
sipsey
you're wrong.
Greenwald didn't unfairly single out Obama for criticism. He published two separate articles on Salon.com about the Senate vote today, but Common Dreams only published the one specifically about Obama's vote.
"The supreme proof that tyranny is the worst form of government is still, for Montesquieu, that it is liable to destruction from within---to decline through its nature---whereas the other forms of government are chiefly destroyed through external circumstances." (Arendt, "The Promise of Politics", p. 64.)
To "Make It Stop" 6:47: Thank you, thank you! A voice of reason amid a hysterical cacophony.
jozef; hello. Lesser criminals?
This '08 presidential election comes down to that. I concede. But I ask you, using your lexicon and framing the question your way: do you prefer the greater criminal?
Sounds kind of simplistic and unfair asked like that doesn't it?
Ya see, I'm a McKinney fan. But she's not here. (Ultra-drag, as I recall wasn't it REPUBLICANS or Zionists that eliminated her. Want to tell me it was Democrats?)
See, my daughter and I will live under McCain or Obama, no matter what my principles are or who I would really prefer.
So, you ask laugingly if I want the lesser criminal? I answer you YES, I sure as hell do.
I wish Gore had been president too, not bush, but I guess you'd say there would have been no difference. War criminal Republican or Nobel prize winning Democrat???
I've heard Dem bashers on CD argue Gore'd have been as bad! At that point I gotta roll a joint and laugh.
Signed, A relativist.
When Republicans want to scare me to make me vote for McCain they yell: Al Quaida! When Democrats want to scare me to make me vote for Obama they yell: Supreme Court!
RichM July 9th, 2008 8:29 pm
Based on todays news, I may have been a bit premature about the best of the two choice. I hope Obama did not say what was reported.
"The concept/idea/meme of 'national exceptionalism' must be destroyed." - Pedro
Also "Beltway exceptionalism". Looks to me like we have a parasite *class*.
Ha ha ha! Sez McPain. "You stupid liberals are doing all the work for me"!
"Obama before any Goddamn Republican. And if that's our only choice in '08, AND IT IS, Democrat haters: BLAME YOURSELVES." There is no hate of Democrats, only those in the Democratic Party who are complicit in Republican Party criminality. You know who they are, but you still prefer the lesser criminals. That gets you, more criminals. Who's to blame for that?
RichM; No. There are grey areas, shades of differences between the two parties.
For an example from today's headlines; The REPUBLICANS are cutting/blocking doctor's Medicaid remuneration. This HURTS THE POOR.
Well RichM, that effort to the extent it is being fought is being fought by the Democrats AND THAT EFFORT WILL HELP THE POOR relative to TODAY'S Republican RAPE.
And RichM you passed on a question earlier:
Do you think Cheney either would or could not blackmail senators in his way?
Because I posit this: since the obvious answer is yes he could, and there is no crime this REPUBLICAN has not committed, it has transpired.
Note too; If REPUBLICANS had not MURDERED DEMOCRAT WELLSTONE, our congress and world would be much different.
How many Democratic senators got the murder-message that day do you think?
Obama before any Goddamn Republican.
And if that's our only choice in '08, AND IT IS, Democrat haters: BLAME YOURSELVES.
Well, I'm gonna hold a sign against the "establishment" and definitely not re-up my verizon contract. Take that Global Corporate Hegemony! These shmucks are hopeless. Yes, Obama supporters, HOPELESS.
Why is it ok to tap anyone's phone without a reason? Shouldn't there need be a warrant for any global wire-tapping shennanigans.
The concept/idea/meme of 'national exceptionalism' must be destroyed.
"...I desperately want my country rescued. I weep for dead children killed by American bombers..."
- I share these sentiments entirely. However, Democrats will not rescue your country, nor keep the children from being killed by American bombers. They have funded all the bombing without the slightest serious resistance -- while stoutly protecting the Republican rapists from impeachment & exposure, for all these 8 long years. There is NOTHING they haven't rolled over for -- from assassinations, wars based on lies, stolen elections & torture to govt spying.
Being clear about the villainy of Republican rapists does not require inventing exculpatory theories about the sweeter-talking Democrats. They are partners & collaborators in all that they do. If the Democrats' spineless inaction were really due to "being blackmailed," the blackmailing has been going on for at least 4 or 5 decades, because the 2 parties have collaborated on all matters of real importance for at least that long.
Why all the hand-wringing? Go out today (or tomorrow) and register Green. The world won't come to an end, and you will feel so much *cleaner*.
http://www.gp.org/
RichM; Thankyou for your thoughts. And beyond cogent too.
Two things if I may,
1. I've never voted because of my belief that to reach a level, national more or less, where a politician could effect positive change, he/she must prove beyond all doubt that they never will. That democreep or republiscum, fealty to Israel and corporate america is demonstrated in a politician's ascendency or their career is 'targeted for defeat' ha ha.
So I venerate Democrats like I venerate dogs. I have one I love, but I take them individually.
2. Having said that, after eight years of rape and murder by bush and cheney I will vote for the first time in my life. I rarely use this word but I hate them. And McCain would be as bad.
I do not in my heart or mind believe that Obama will be as bad as McCain-HEY-Sorry But I'm In the middle of being gang Raped. Sorry if I'm more pragmatic than principled; Sorry, but I am crawling toward a ray of hope, nothing more, but IT IS IMMEDIATE.
Can you dig that? I want these filthy Republicans out of my body. Then I'll take it from there.
I defy someone to call me unprincipled or stupid. I desperately want my country rescued. I weep for dead children killed by American bombers.
Get this Satanic cabal out of DC.
Obama is not Satanic.
FISA sucked. But I think Barack Obama is against forcible rape, UNLIKE the Republicans-And I'm gonna bet my vote on that.
I usually vote Green but had seriously considered voting for Obama. He just lost my vote.
Daniel David July 9th, 2008 1:22 pm
"Thanks, sipsey and hamster, above. You are part of a small but growing group of posters at CD that have good sense. The rest mostly want to expound until John McCain replaces all the remaining liberals on the Supreme Court."
So where does it end? Suppose the Republicans threaten to call the Democrats nasty names if they don't agree to scrap the First Amendment. The Democrats, of course, decide that they "have to" go along because Bush is just so popular these days. Are we still supposed to sit down, shut up, and reward the Democrats in November?
lisa3210peace (6:13 pm) writes, "Clark Kent, 1:50 p,m.; You, RSJ, Myself, one other CD poster I've read agree; For dead certain a few key Democreeps are blackmailed, bought or death-threated into obedience..."
- Sorry, this is a laughably stupid theory. World history is driven by class interests. The Democrats haven't stood up to Republicans even once in many, many decades. That's because they represent the same class interests that Republicans do -- but represent them in a slyly indirect way. The charade is useful for keeping the population under control (under the illusion that they have a "democracy").
Republicans directly make demands on behalf of their sponsoring class -- the financial oligarchy. Democrats, on the other hand, deceitfully pretend to represent the interests of "the little guy," while never really doing so. Instead, they make cheap feeble gestures -- as little as possible, just enough to keep up the pretense. Their job is to go out there and deliberately fall on their face, while pretending to "fight for us." They are like pro wrestlers, whose job is to take a dive, while giving the fans a bit of a show.
The only reason some people want to believe that the Dems are being "blackmailed" is because they have naive expectations for Democrats in the first place. Adherents of the "blackmail" theory wrongly assume that the Dem Party is "basically good." Sure, once you believe a dumb thing like that, you have to invent an equally dumb theory to explain why they never fight for anything good.
The problem Dem Party believers have in coming to terms with the fact that the party is not "basically good," is precisely analogous to the problem American "patriots" have, in accepting the fact that their country is not "basically a force for good" in the world. It's very hard to accept that something you've believed all your life isn't so. Nonetheless, if you want to be in tune with reality, you have to examine that possibility at some point -- or you risk forever believing in lies & fairy tales.
seasonedcitizen,
Sorry for the delay, if you are still here. I quite literally mean disconnect from any mechanical, electrical, cable, internet and traceable financial history, i.e. credit cards, ATM cards, errr plastic per se. Not all is possible, like banking, but keeping my identity, uh, as local as possible seems a good step to minimize governmental intrusion.
I mean that's why the government can only find common criminals with all their law breaking attempts to catch "terrorists."
I know it's a lot more fun to scream about how corrupt politicians are, but there is so much more to this than many have the time and attention span to comprehend, including myself.
From what I can determine, this bill is NOT GREAT by any means, but it isn't the evil consitiutional attack that many would like it to be for whatever reason. Sure, I wish Obama had taken a stand on this, but the fact that he has been thoughtful about this bill actually leads me to believe he is one of the few who might understand its implications from a realistic place. It is, in fact, a compromise for both national security and civil liberties, taking oversight power from the executive branch and putting it back to congress, protecting Americans abroad, and taking a much-needed step in the right direction back from the Patriot Act depths to which we have allowed ourselves to sink. We have a LONG way to go, but this is a start. Not a great one, but it is done.
Yeah, the immunity thing stinks on ice. We all want revenge. But this isn't the way to do it, and this bill in particular is not the end all be all for accountability.
So to all you non-neocons, can we please stop doing McCain's campaigning for him? I know he's elderly, and tires easily, but seriously...save your energy for your grassroots movement to proliferate a third party AFTER we get the neocons out of power. Just a little while longer.
seasonedcitizen (4:30 pm) writes,
"...Do you see now why I am finally afraid?.... But what can you offer as a solution? Simply formally registering as an Independent isn't enough...."
- It's obvious why you're afraid. Anyone who's not afraid doesn't understand what's going on. Today on Capitol Hill they literally threw the 4th Amendment into the trash.
- What do I see as "a solution"? That question asks for an entire theory, which just can't be presented adequately in a forum like CD. It's not a sound-bite type thing. // But generally, I'm certain that the collapse of American "democracy" cannot possibly be remedied within the confines of the 2-party system. The 2-party system is the proximate cause of democracy's collapse -- not its antidote. It locks us into a channel that permits no escape. It's a rigged game in which both parties collaborate with one another & serve the same elite groups, in effect uniting with elites against the interests of the rest of us. Only elites can win at this game -- that's how it's set up.
It's therefore absolutely necessary to break with this system. Voting in huge numbers for third parties is at most only a beginning, but it's a necessary step. It would of course be better if everyone who understands the necessity of overturning the 2-party system could agree on which 3rd party to support. Even on this thread, however, you can see disagreement as to who that would be. Some say Nader, or McKinney, or Ron Paul, or Bob Barr.
Frankly, anyone who thinks it should be Barr or Paul is also suffering from serious illusions -- but at least they see that the old game of Democrats vs Republicans will never lead to the common good. So these people are not as dumb as people still hoping for the Democrats to save us. (I would argue that those who still believe in Democrats are even dumber than those who still believe in Republicans.)
Of the commonly-cited names, I'd say that Nader is the best, though there's a case for McKinney because she's associated with a party. However, in the larger picture, neither of them is any good either, because neither of them has an accurate critique of capitalism. The world can't be fixed by capitalism -- rather, it is being destroyed by capitalism. The right path is socialist internationalism. That basically means re-organizing society's functioning in a deliberate planned fashion, in order to meet human & environmental needs, rather than just the economic needs of the top half percent of the population (which is all that capitalism ultimately does).