Organizing With Obama: Faith in Action
If you heard Barack Obama last week testify that his sins could be redeemed because he let Jesus into his life, and now he is called to do the Lord's work, it might have made you nervous. If you heard him pledging more public funds for faith-based initiatives, it might have made you more nervous. It made me nervous too. We've learned all too much in the last seven years about the potential for abuse when religion and politics mix.
But the thought of a President John McCain makes me even more nervous. So I'm prepared to cut Obama some slack on this one. His job is to win the election. He is running far behind among whites who are regular churchgoers and say religion is important in their daily lives. He'll gain more votes with all this faith talk than he'll lose. He has to bend over backwards to prove that he is a real Christian, since some 10% of the public thinks he is Muslim and about 15% more say they don't know what religion he is.
Obama also has to think ahead. He told reporters that he knows he can't win a majority of the Christian evangelical vote. But he can win enough to put him in the White House, and then he'll have to be president of all the people. The more people are able to talk to each other and narrow the divides that separate them, including the divide of faith, he said, the easier it will be to govern. So it makes sense to show evangelicals that he can talk their talk.
Obama certainly showed that in his sermonic speech to the African Methodist Episcopal conference, speaking comfortably and piously about God and Christ and the Gospel. How much does he really believe it? We'll never know. Candidates always use the language their audience wants to hear; when addressing religious groups, they always sound like religious people.
In any case, Obama made his evangelical witness sound like his native language, the real deal. That was a key to George W. Bush's success among evangelicals. Why wouldn't any candidate who knows how to do it want to repeat that success? When it comes to giving our tax dollars to religious groups for social services, though, there are big differences between Obama and Bush. Obama stated flatly that he would forbid discrimination on any basis in hiring staff for these faith-based programs. He said equally flatly that "if you get a federal grant, you can't use that grant money to proselytize. . . . Federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs."
George W. Bush never said that - not only because he was courting churches for political purposes, but because the strictly secular approach contradicted the basic theology of his faith-based program. That theology, worked out by his mentors Myron Magnet and Marvin Olasky (who coined the phrase "compassionate conservatism"), is based on the concept of original sin. "Man's sinful nature leads to and lust and idleness," Olasky wrote. "The fundamental purpose of the social order," according to Magnet, "is to restrain man's instinctual aggressiveness." They assume that religion is the institution that has always done this best.
Religion is the antidote to poverty too, they argue, because the root of poverty is sinful sloth. It's even more so now, because the poor believe they are powerless victims. Poor neighborhoods are "reduced to savage anarchy. ... No one is in control and the forces of lawlessness are sliding out from restraint," Magnet opined. "The required solution is for the poor to take responsibility for themselves." Those who refuse to work and behave themselves must suffer painful consequences. A "demanding love, a severe mercy," Bush has called it.
But to learn the necessary self-discipline, poor sinners must have have an inner spiritual transformation and accept the highest authority: God. So religious groups can help the needy only by dishing out religious teaching and inspiration along with hot meals and job training. And the best teaching comes from the Bible. That's the theory of "compassionate conservatism."
Unlike Bush, Obama has no record of making such a conservative theological approach central to his policymaking. He did tell the AME conference that social problems are partly - not entirely - rooted in sin. And he briefly mentioned the importance of personal responsibility, urging the poor not to use poverty as an excuse.
But Obama does not treat social problems primarily as individual faults the way "compassionate conservatism" does. He treats them as political problems. His record is not in urging spiritual reform, as Bush's was when he ran for president. Obama's record is in organizing in churches, helping people see that their problems come from systemic abuse by the wealthy and the powerful, and teaching them how to resist.
That's why he opened his call for faith-based initiatives by lauding the Campaign for Human Development and concluded it by including "interfaith coalitions like the Let Justice Roll campaign." These groups don't rely on charity and evangelizing. They do congregation-based community organizing ( CBCO), giving the poor political tools to fight and change the system. They know that poverty comes from unjust systems, not individual sin. By making CBCO an integral part of his faith-based approach, Obama signaled that he'll take a very different path than Bush.
Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder, where he has taught for over 30 years. He has published numerous articles and eight books including Monsters To Destroy: The Neoconservative War on Terror and Sin.
©2007 Religion Dispatches
Twitter
StumbleUpon
Facebook
Delicious
Digg
Newsvine
Google
Yahoo
Technorati
78 Comments so far
Show AllGod isn't a guy "up there" with a beard.
That's Dad.
The Divine isn't so... infantile. It's beyond words, beyond thought.
So, it doesn't really matter what you say. Or think.
But there are moments when a certain... something... does shine through.
Actually, atheist, I never once mentioned my own faith perspective. This is the kind of response, without reference to my actual points of discussion, nor with any reflection on the issues raised that I am referrring to. You make an (errant, I might add) assumption and respond with a personal criticism, completely avoiding the discussion. It's a shame that on the left, in particular, this is the depth and breadth of the discourse. I can't tell if we've forgotten how to dialogue, failed to learn the art of reflection and debate, or are simply not intellectually capable of going beyond reactive and personal attacks. Whatever the reason, it is cause for concern.
Peace
I was a die hard atheist for a good part of my life so believe me, I totally understand where you are coming from athiest. Something happened, which I can't go into here, but if you had told me five minutes before the 'incident' that I would believe in a god or higher power I would have told you to go back to your pipe. All I can tell you is our little monkey brains are not equipted to understand the enormity of it just as my dog can't appreciate art. One common thread through all religions is seek and you shall find. Just keep an open mind.
Beepriest, aren't you a little old to have an imaginary friend ? I hope you are proselytizing while you do your peace work.
Belief in the supernatural is merely wishful thinking by people who are afraid of reality and who feel uncomfortable being insignificant anonymous meaningless and purposeless specks in a vast incomprehensible universe. I for one enjoy being insignificant.
I find a number of things deeply distressing about commondreams posts, which I read almost every day from my office doing peace work in Colombia. The first is what I would call "unproductive rage", which is a very different animal than constructive outrage. It seems that the US is overpopulated by folks who have only the capacity to violently deconstruct, without any intention to construct in the smoking hole they leave with their vitriol. Constructiveness should be the motivator for tearing something down, not an afterthought at best. The violence and anger, perhaps motivated by legitimate outrage, neither helps nor demonstrates the capacity to reflect on difficult issues and demonstrate a way forward, even if polemical.
In this particular thread the issue I find most distressing is the conflation of faith with those leaders of religious institutions that seek power and control over the faith dialogue. Niether the book (with its flaws, although the 6000 year thing is a myth invented by a radical, NOT a set of calculations obvious in the text) nor the preachers are the standard by which to define faith. For Christians the Bible is a sacred book, but for many many Christians it is a guide to a mystery much more personal, much more experiential than the words can sum up. The contradictions and the seeming difficulties with some passages (the wilting of the fig tree, for instance) give fodder for spiritual reflection, and the way, to borrow from the Taoists or Quakers, opens through the heart, not the head.
Combining heart and head, which is to say faith and daily lived reality (including the political) is a difficult, constant, and humbling task. Those who engage in it are rarely the same that scream from pulpits, and I direct this at any part of the political spectrum, because lived faith requires constant humility. Being wrong is a certainty when one tries to explore faith. And that means those who reject all religion, as well. There are many spiritual atheists who have powerfully spiritual lives, but they are just as flawed as the rest and those who are authentic about their practice also seek quiet and humility, I believe.
The rejection of spirituality, whether by a righteous minister seeking his or her own power, or a righteous atheist seeking their own power, leaves an enormous part of the social dialogue unspoken. Clarity in thought, in communication, and in action require quietude, reflection, humility and care. I find it hard to benefit from the vitriolic rampaging of many of my fellow progressives. Just as I find it sickening to listen to the angry right-wing talk radio that seems to have taken over the US, when I am back for a visit.
I live in a country where people put live grenades in each other's mouths as political statements, and cut each other up with chainsaws to make power grabs. In that sense we have it a little better in the US. But we seem to lack the capacity to seriously reflect and dialogue and, I would argue in my humble opinion, we need that and it requires a spiritual practice, be it Wicca, Christianity, Spirit-Driven Atheism, or Navel Meditation. Something to quiet down our reactivity and help us seek a broader space for encounter.
Peace.
"But the thought of a President John McCain makes me even more nervous."
Sometimes things have to get much worse before they can get better... I will not vote for Obama. He is just one more lying Republican posing as a Democrat.
Obama's integrity is all tapped out - He had me at hope and change. He lost me with lies and deceit.
Daniel David July 10th, 2008 10:35 am
"What is your favorite translation for accuracy?"
Actually if I was in a hurry I'd use the modern translation, its fairly accurate. If I need to be sure of something, I call a Rabbi that was at at Temple Emanuel when I was trying to figure things out. He is a Hebrew scholar (retired now) that knows his stuff.
I reread the KJ version mostly though simply because I like the way the language flows. Any of them are just a guideline to me anyway.
Thanks, I didn't remember that "murder" was in there and expressed correctly.
A savvy politician, Obama has measured correctly the hurdle he must surmount and is moving expeditiously to alter an image of him forged by his own past associations and policy positions. In three weeks, he has jettisoned his new politics in a stunning display of raw pragmatism.
A prime minister must be "a good butcher," H.H. Asquith told Winston Churchill on naming him First Lord of the Admiralty, "and there are several who need to be pole-axed now." Four years later, Asquith would pole-axe Churchill over the Dardanelles disaster.
Obama is not lacking in this capacity that Richard Nixon, too, felt was an indispensable attribute of a statesman.
Samantha Power was tossed off Barack's sledge after calling Hillary a "monster" and suggesting Barack's Iraq timetable was not set in concrete. Robert Malley was canned for having talked to Hamas, though that was his portfolio at a think tank for conflict resolution.
Barack pole-axed pastor Wright and, though he said he could no more repudiate his church than his family, shortly after the second time Wright went off, Barack severed all ties to Trinity United.
Barack has spoken of how he cringed at the racist reaction of his white grandmother after she was accosted by a black man on a bus. Grandma has now been rehabilitated in a new ad as the loving woman who inculcated good old Kansas values into little Barack.
When his own surrogate, Gen. Wesley Clark, suggested John McCain's war service did not automatically qualify him as presidential timber, a storm erupted. Barack proceeded to cut the general's legs off.
His had been one of a few Senate voices to speak of Palestinian suffering. But Barack's address to the Israeli lobby read like it was plagiarized from the collected works of Ze'ev Jabotinsky.
When the Supreme Court declared every citizen has a Second Amendment right to a handgun, Barack stood with Justice Scalia. When Scalia said the court ought not to have taken away Louisiana's right to execute child rapists, Barack was with him again.
When Congress voted the telecoms immunity from prosecution for colluding with the Bush administration in wiretapping citizens, Barack stood with Bush and the telecoms. Fearing it might cost him his huge money-raising advantage over McCain, Barack tossed campaign finance reform over the side.
In Ohio, Barack was a populist opponent of NAFTA. He is now a free-trader. Yet when economic adviser Austan Goolsbee told the Canadians pretty much the same thing, Barack disinherited him.
As July 4 approached, Barack gratuitously dissed his friends at MoveOn.org for their "General Betray Us" ad mocking Gen. David Petraeus. And that flag pin Barack got rid of after 9-11, calling it a "substitute … for real patriotism"? It's back on the lapel.
Last week, Barack said that, after he meets with Petraeus and his field commanders in Iraq, he might "refine" his commitment to withdraw all U.S. combat brigades within 16 months.
And finally, Obama has co-opted President Bush's faith-based initiative and claimed it as his own.
Pat Buchanan
I agree with sphne. The job of activists should be to stop the bleeding, and to prevent it from getting worse.
For vulnerable people both here and elsewhere, the small difference between parties can be a huge difference in their lives. If morality is based on the predictable outcomes of our actions, and we know that McCain will continue war in Iraq and very likely attack Iran, then the moral thing to do is to keep McCain away from executive power.
Obama is not great. He is downright bad on a few issues. But McCain is worse on almost everything, especially when it comes to foreign affairs.
Poll: Creationism Trumps Evolution
"Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml
sphne July 10th, 2008 10:39 am -- "As I've said before, if you people think a country that voted for Bush and his miscreants TWICE will vote for Nader or anyone else left of Obama you are out of your minds and need a reality check."
Sadly, I'm forced to agree. And that is why I've concluded that the U.S. is totally beyond redemption from within. There simply aren't enough true "land of the free and home of the brave" USans left to make salvation possible by any conceivable realistic means.
For those who insist on some kind of religious connection, think of the futile search for a sufficient number of righteous inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah to avoid the utlimate fate of those communities.
Good luck and remember not to look back as you depart.
As I've said before, if you people think a country that voted for Bush and his miscreants TWICE will vote for Nader or anyone else left of Obama you are out of your minds and need a reality check. The Neocons had set things up so there would be republicans in power for years to come. One step at a timepeople, we need to win this one. I think 4 more years of the republican mindset and we are on the road to facism. Do you guys ever get out and talk to the uninformed majority out there?
Thomas More,
I have always believed the most literal bible translation is the Today's English Version (aka, the Good News Bible) translated in the '60s (NT) and '70s (OT) by a team of scholars for the American Bible Society. It has the commandment you reference stated as "Do not commit murder."
What is your favorite translation for accuracy?
PissantNobody July 9th, 2008 10:39 pm
Thomas More: I was refering to the "King James Version". The one that was shoved down most of our throats.
"I am not sure what you are saying,"
I was just curious which you were referring to, I assumed it was the KJ version. I've read the Book of Mormon....its a bit off for me.
Between the translations there is a lot of difference, thats why I asked. KJ is from Old English, which was from German, from Latin, from Greek and originally from Hebrew. Studying the bible taugt me to beware of intolerant ideologies.
I used an example not long ago to illustrate differences in religious interpretation and facts.
The commandment in the KJ version was "Thou shalt not kill", actually that commandment in the original Hebrew is translated exactly as "Thou shalt not commit murder"
There is a huge difference between the two. Camel thru the eye of the needle, etc.
" greatest - goal is ending the tyrrany of Imperialism, and replacing it with a socialist workers democracy. In the immediate, that translates to joining the party of global socialist revolution."
You know I don't agree, but I love your consistency! Besides, tolerant arguments and reasoning are a bit more persuasive than shouting.
Thanks for the clarification.
Obama's problem is that -- in the eyes of a growing number of his supporters, as well as those who never bought into his "rhetoric" -- he won the nomination under false pretenses.
I'm one of those who never bought in, however, although I worried his ethusiasts' expectations bore little relation to the man's voting record, I was prepared to vote for him. I worried about expectations that he would show his "true" progressive colors once in office. I was unprepared for the last month which has vastly exceeded "moving to the center to win the general election" and represents either pandering of the most flagrant variety (which is so often unflatteringly revealed by perusal of past statements) or Obama's really-true-honestly-this-time-for now philosophical basis.
I've found his speaking style (when not giving "major speeches") bordering on both patronizing and arrogant. I was disappointed in his responses to the two recent Supreme Court rulings to find him, Bush-like, responding to those rulings ONLY as they related to HIS PERSONAL BELIEFS, and not to a more diverse and complex NATION.
I eagerly await the next series of polls. We all know Jesse Jackson was speaking his own truth. Jesse Jackson who complained a bit less than year ago that Obama was "talking white"... long before Nader generated headlines last month.
Obama has been all things to all people ... but he's no JFK (Ich bein ein Berliner) and he's no MLK (I have a dream)... increasingly he's appearing to be a politically demographic confection, a marketing dream ... "what else" remaining to-be-determined (oh shit).
The long tradition of the separation of church and state - perhaps the one brilliant idea of the U.S. republic's founding fathers - has been mauled by the Bush administration. I don't, then, see anything positive in Obama embracing the same church-state violations, however nuanced Chernus may try to make it seem.
The sincere and adamant convictions of a Chernus, so harmful to domestic tranquility, is exactly the sort of bigotry the founders sought to avoid.
The divinely inspired among us are full of zealotry for imaginary unearthly kingdoms, so it's a small step for them to assume that divine authority on earth that they imagine in the heavens. Give them the reigns of power, a taste of the state, and they'll subject us all. They don't see clearly. They see through the lens of their own dark imaginings.
The religious lead us into wars in the name of love, Jesus, Allah - you name it. They don't feed the poor before first practicing their sermons. It's mental slavery. It's a form of despair that rejects human responsibility on earth and the possibilities of human ethics to make the world a better place in the future.
Obama speaks of bombing other countries. For him, it's not "do unto others ..."; rather, it's drop bombs onto others. Religious? Yep, the Christians (and other sects) have been killing the heathens, pagans, philistines, etc. for many centuries now. No contradiction. Meanwhile, Chernus embraces tribalism, seeing Obama's bad ideas as virtues, even though the ideas are the same as Bush's in terms of blending church and state.
The lesson here is that if you have religion, you don't necessarily have ethics. Let's feed the hungry collectively because it's the right and ethical thing to do, not because of religion.
Religion can play a unifying role when the state becomes lawless and violent. However, in our times, we've just seen religion (Christianity) feeding on the violence of the state. It's a story as old as the Holy Roman Empire and a young as the occupation of Iraq. Given time and control, even the more enlighted sects drift toward tyranny, intolerance and subjugation of the other.
Let's stick with a great idea: separation of church and state.
Not only has Obama lost all credibility , so has Mr. Chernus. You don't have to be a communist to realize that religion is the opiate of the masses.
'The meek shall inherit the earth' is a terrible lie so that the the meek won't struggle as the choke hold is put on them by the democratic and republican party machine that do the bidding of the corporate elite. Not that they were going to struggle anyway.
I believed in the boy scouts and patriotism when I was young. But to be blind to the limitations of religion and patriotism at my more advanced age would ignorant and immoral.
Vote Third Party to make your vote count for change. With Obama you will get betrayal as a side dish for no additional charge.
It doesn't matter who you vote for for POTUS. Dimwit or Repug. The Wealth Masters will win as they always do. So vote for whoever you think best represents you and "we the people". And keep in mind, that if they are currently serving in government and have not upheld their oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution, then there is no reason to believe that they will uphold the new oath to do the same thing as POTUS.
It's really very simple. Master will ALWAYS get the POTUS he wants.
Fuck Obama. He has exactly a zero chance of winning now. And guess what all you democrat lackeys: IT IS HIS OWN FAULT!
Are you gonna cut Obama slack on corporations being allowed to spy on American's too? How much slack can all you lame-ass, Democrats cut this corporate whore before you get the message.....
OBAMA AND MCCAIN ARE SELLING YOU DOWN THE R-I-V-E-R !!!
Slack T H I S ..^.. (my middle finger)
Thomas More: I was refering to the "King James Version". The one that was shoved down most of our throats.
I am not sure what you are saying, but, for example, following the lineage provided by the Old Testament yields an earth that is ~6000 years old, which is one of a zillion demonstrable falsehoods in the KJV. I know that there are other versions, lost chapters, etc., but I don't really think they add much to our movement for social justice.
Someone above asked what is faith, and you answered it pretty well. It is belief in something for which you have no proof, or even in the face of great contrary evidence. That's all fine in the quiet of one's prayer closet, but as you suggest, when it becaomes a basis for enforced law, that's too much.
Christianity was a big part of my youth, and I took it very seriously even into college, years after I had rejected the particularly twisted interpretation of my family's church, the Church of Christ. Eventually, I dumped it all overboard as a confusing, inaccurrate, misleading, and often squirrely document(s) that was unworthy of further exploration.
In my thirties, in response to heated discussions with a devout Mormon (...talk about a squirrely book - check out the Book of Mormon!) at work, I decided to write a criique of the New Testament. I got all the way through the 'Gospels' and a good distance into Acts before moving on, but I did carry one thing away.
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo, and especially focussing on the red letters (alleged words of Jesus), I concluded that I could sum up the positive thrust of Christianity in just a few words - that I even found myself agreeing with: Always act in a spirit of love. Of course, translating that into action is not so simple, because accomplishing a greater goal often means sacrificing a smaller one.
In today's world, if you are aspire to act in love, the greater - nay, greatest - goal is ending the tyrrany of Imperialism, and replacing it with a socialist workers democracy. In the immediate, that translates to joining the party of global socialist revolution. Whatever else you are doing, nobody can be a realized human without helping to build such a party. When this old man hammers hard on the need to do so, and without mercy upon the liars and distractors who would preserve capitalist domination, I am trying to do a favor for others, based upon the greatest love I can conjour up. There is nothing else in it for me, as my time is short, and I will not see that promised land. Sounds sappy, but now you know my best side very well.
Comment #1....I'm done with Obama...Never trusted him and apparently for good reason. Too bad honesty just does not get the job done...Kucinich was the right guy, as far as I could tell....but Corporate America was not havin any of his truth. Truth, as far as I can see, is not what America is all about.
EILLEEN FLEMMING: Good post. I totally agree.
rebelnow July 9th, 2008 2:34 pm
Well I hope I'm not one of those, but faith to me is simply what I believe with no proof. When people start telling you what you should believe or do, thats not faith.
PissantNobody July 9th, 2008 7:14 pm
Which bible?
Don't vote to feel good = McCain wins
Vote third party to feel good = McCain wins
Vote for Ralph to feel good = McCain wins
Vote for McKinney to feel good = McCain wins
Vote for Paul to feel good = McCain wins
Write in candidate to feel good = McCain wins
Attack Obama to feel good = McCain wins
I know the shills here will feel good if McCain wins, but will you?
"When did progressive start meaning atheist anyway?" I don't recall anyone saying any such thing. In any event, I think there may be room in an Obama administration for a Mootist? A Mootist (my term, my invention) is a person who when posed with the question whether God exists, responds with: the question is moot. Religion and nationalism/patriotism, have together been responsible for the slaughter of many tens, or hundreds of millions of people throughout the ages. I would suppose many who do the killing believe that their killing was in His name, for His glory, and with His support. Of course both sides may be petitioning their Lord for success in killing the believers on the other side. Is this not dimentia? No, believers may never go completely away. The human race, however, may.
Faith in just whom? Obama? The US? Congress? No faith in a thing, I fired my Congressguy last week, the Senators got the boot a few days ago, now this country is getting the boot and Senator damn Obama can have my Passport, I no longer need it.
Hank Fur,
Boiled down to it's essence, my point is McCain will be the end of us. An Obama presidency with an strong dem majority will be an opportunity for change only if we demand it. A recent Rasmussen report has just 9% of voters saying Congress is doing a good job. That's the first single digit approval rating ever.
That's an opportunity. You say you're an active rebel. Don't stop. Get others to start.
The weak link in the current system is that it's guaranteed to elicit a reaction from a populace no longer able to afford what's been keeping it asleep, and as they wake up they see everyone around them riding the swirl.
An Obama administration can be directed if the people find the will. Maybe he can be convinced to open the chute before the sudden stop.
I know. America tends to solve crises otherwise.
A McCain Administration, given the power that Bush will leave it, won't care about who's riding the swirl, and will listen as much as Bush does. He's already playing games with press access.
Hank Fur, as long as you ask,(5:30 today) I never taught religion but did teach sociology in State University of New York, Fredonia, am now retired, living in Gainesville Florida, and operating The Sun State Activist website (google if interested).
I am deeply saddened about Ira's unquestioning of support for Obama.
He tries to excuse BO. He just doesn't get it that if one is a right-wing fascist, his word is definitely not to be trusted. Hitler expressed similar thoughts about religion and look at his legacy.
His hard-line approach does not sound too Christian to me.
The Bible is filled with provable falsehoods. Scoundrels and intellectual weaklings have long been supporters and promoters of it.
Hey, I could just substitute "Obama" for "Bible" in that sentence!
FACT - a recent study shows that a majority of Americans believe that their faith is NOT the only way to god.
When did progressive start meaning atheist anyway? Believe it or not, ultra progressives, there are intelligent people out there who think differently than you, and America is all about giving everyone a voice. I know we've been overrun by the Neocon agenda lately, and we're all weary of the religious fervor, but guess what? Religious folk are never going to go away(I'm one of them, and I'm a liberal progressive). Many people do wonderful selfless acts every day in the name of their god. Just because all we hear about is the crazy extremists, does not mean they're the majority, merely that they're the loudest.
Barack Obama is perhaps the bravest man I've ever been aware of. Every day he continues his quest to be president, he puts himself at GREAT RISK to be assassinated. EVERY DAY!!! If he were to come off as a God Hating ultra progressive, he'd raise his chances of being killed 1000 fold. I guarantee he is 100 times more courageous than all the so called "progressives" who plan on throwing their vote away at Nader, rather than vote for the first good person to run for president in my lifetime. Obama is the progressive candidate PERIOD. The fact is, most of the extreme progressives don't vote anyhow, or they always find fault with the democrat, and throw their vote away to Nader.
Oh, and by the way, - Mondale, Dukakis, and Kerry didn't lose because they moved to the right, they lost because they were terrible and boring candidates(I remember even if you don't). In 84 the guy we wanted was Gary Hart, and the repugs knew it so they took him out with the sex scandal. In 88 Jesse Jackson was the most charismatic guy, who scared the hell out the right, so they took him out by digging up the "Haimee town" remark which caused him to lose NY and go into a tail spin. In 2004 Dean was by far the best candidate, but he got demolished by the media's exploitation of his post Iowa scream speech. Additionally, Gore won in 2000, so he doesn't count.
Clemsy, you are absolutely right. The two-party candidates are "whoring" (Michael Moore's term for them) for the real bosses - the billionaires who wish to get even richer and more powerful. Yes, I do understand that Barack Obama and McCain - virtually all of Congress - is sucking at the teat of big business.
I don't get your point. I'm a fairly active rebel, I call a spade a spade, I've occupied Congressional offices and have been pretty busy these past several years doing what I can. I refuse to cut slack for those whom would have innocents killed in order to advance their careers. Not a difficult decision for me.
We'll get no where as a movement until we stop letting the two-party entity jerk us to and fro - it's dizzying, it's counterproductive, it deflates energy.
And no, I don't sleep well at night knowing that most Americans aren't interested.
L3ESmith - 5:04 pm
What in the hell is the matter with you people?
_______________________________________________
Given that opening line, I see no reason to waste my creative energy on sophisticated snark. So I'll keep it simple:
You're an idiot.
"Obama can obviously win without left wing support and (more importantly) can win without your ideas. See ya…." No, he can't. Just watch. Ta ta. Run Ralph. Run!
Jesus was a Palestinian? Holy cow man, you expect US Christians to believe that? My copy of the Jehovah Witness' mag, "The Watchtower", shows a blonde, blue-eyed, J.C. Look at the televangelists programs on satellite TV and tell me if J.C. were around today he wouldn't be throwing the money changers out of the "temple". Ah yes, The Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount. Isn't this the J.C. teachings that the U.S House opens up each session with? You know, all those "guest chaplains" and all calling on GAWD! And, oh. Mr. Barack Obama, and the Democratic Party, how about this Beatitude, "Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill"? The people are hungry and thirsty for justice. What say Barack Obama?
This is wesbite is full nader supporters and Republican Spammers trying to drum up support for nader to get Bush III in office.
The Nader left wing will be left in the wilderness....again 90+% of the country doesn't give a damn about ya. I think you leftists actually enjoy that and want to keep it that way. So be it. Obama can obviously win without left wing support and (more importantly) can win without your ideas. See ya....
I lost faith in hope when I saw the advocates of faith inspire hope, then prey upon the hopeful.
L3ESmith: Dream on buddy. Obama represents the average folk just as much as the KKK represents blacks.
Time for USA Christians to wake up to the fact that much of what passes for Christianity in America has NOTHING to do with what Jesus was all about.
2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning and was not a piece of jewelry.
When JC said: "Pick up your cross and follow me" everyone back then understood he was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.
The term 'Christian' was not even coined until the days of Paul, about 3 decades after Jesus walked the earth a man.
Jesus, while never a Christian, was a social, justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up against the corrupt Temple authorities and challenged their job security by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God LOVED them just as they were:
Sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.
What got JC crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant.
The work of the church SHOULD be caring for the poor and oppressed and we who claim to be Christians, should be doing it without money from the empire.
"BLESSED are the PEACEMAKERS: They shall be called the children of God."-Jesus, Matthew 5:9
e
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
The more he says, the more I feel like voting for Cynthia McKinney. I prefer a leadership based on reality and not mysticism.
In view of the revealed liars, criminals and other unsavory characters who have made a career out ruining the Republican Party (it didn't take much), I have supported Barack Obama.
No more.
He has, by recent voting, violated every tenet he supported, every person who has supported him, every person who saw in him originally a hopeful way to end the Bush machinations and restore our country.
His recent vote against the Bill holding the Telecom companies on the heat for their part in violating people's rights after his weeks and months of promising to vote to end this practice, he has voted with the Republicans who again will vote to let go scot free these companies and prove to the world that the Congress is about as useful as tits on a boar. He has cheated us, lied to us, used us, and there is no room for him in our government.
I hate to say this. I had counted on him, supported him, defended him and praised him, only to find out he doesn't know right from wrong. Now who? Not the Republicans. To whom do we go? Is there an honest politician in the world we could support,let alone elect?
Well... one point:
Hank Fur, you said: "because people like Obama, who have seats in Congress, won't stand up to it."
There's the fallacy that's destroying the country right there. The politicians don't have the power. They've just convinced us they do.
All those people are dead because We the People won't stand up to it.
But if you sleep better believing otherwise, allow the pols all the power they want. It won't be your fault.
But it will.
Just lost a post. Won't retype it.
...But when participants start saying there's no difference between Ginsberg and Alito, I shake my head and walk away.
Jerry Rose! I would love to have you as my Religious Studies professor. You are right on, brother. Where do you teach?
OBAMA AND MCCAIN ARE SELLING YOU DOWN THE R-I-V-E-R !!!
Let's assume that's true. Still, those of us that don't like Obama will vote for him because the Bushites are much more nauseating. Just the thought of Bush and his Republican cabal actually turns our stomachs.
We don't so much hate him and Republicans any more than we would hate a rabid animal or a pile of shit, but we don't want anything more to do with them.
Though Democrats share the blame, this is a Republican caused mess. We must do all we can to keep Republicans from causing further damage if only to rid ourselves of the unbearable stench of death and destruction they've brought upon us.
Thank you for visiting our progressive site. I hope you read the articles and posts here before you posted your shit, in the spirit of mutual understanding.
*Notice to CD moderator: Please note that I did not use the word "conservative" once, except for just now.
Clemsy,
You mean like the Supreme Court justices Alito and Roberts whom most of the Democrats voted to confirm, instead of filibustering, or do you mean the great corporate attorneys like Byer and Gingsburg appointed by Osame, sorry, I mean Clinton. Not really a dime' worth of difference in my opinion, just a matter of pick your poison. Do you want to die fast,or faster at the corporate altar.
Now let us prey.
re: def of nihilism. Isn't cut and paste wonderful? As for "ensuring through action, or inaction, that John McCain becomes president and gets to pick Supreme Court judges". Well now, if Democrats wouldn't rubber stamp approve the right wingers' Supreme picks, then we wouldn't have the Supreme Court we do. Would we? I'd say that by taking impeachment off the table, that by not holding this administration accountable for high crimes and misdemeanors, that the Democrats are doing just fine with their "total rejection of established laws and institutions", like subverting the U.S. Constitution. That makes the Democrats nihilists, doesn't it? You bet your dupa it does.
What in the hell is the matter with you people?
Do you not realize that before he can affect ANY CHANGE as President, he has to get elected first? Don't you realize that his whole campaign has been based on the rather quaint and admirable notion that as Americans, we have more in common that not? Wouldn't that lead naturally to him reaching out to so-called "Red-Staters" who think they have nothing in common with him?
More importantly and fundamentally, of the two candidates (one of which WILL be President--forget Nader, etc. for now), who do you want to take your chances with? McCain? or Obama?
WHEN Barack Obama is elected as the next POTUS, he will be president of ALL Americans, and will work for the good of all of us. So for God's sakes, get off of it! If you want to change the way our government works, go get involved! Organize a meeting, start a petition, something!
Oh, by the way, OBAMA wants you to get involved in YOUR government.
He's not the enemy here, folks . . .
Who cares if Obama panders to the conservatives, evangelicals, AIPAC, etc. This is not a democracy, voters won't decide who the next president will be, and the thirst for imperialism won't go away.
We must cultivate _ F A I T H _ in our FAITH,
and _ H O P E _ in our HOPE… and ignore the loss in our LOST
Nihilism:
1. total rejection of established laws and institutions.
2. anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.
3. total and absolute destructiveness, esp. toward the world at large and including oneself:
I'll add my own fourth:
4. ensuring through action, or inaction, that John McCain becomes president and gets to pick Supreme Court judges.
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field. ~Genesis iii _ 1.
When you see a viper, don't worry about where it came from, ___ just avoid it.
Slack in; slack out. :mad:
Mordechai Shiblikov - 1:32 pm
Let us prey.
_________________________________
So good it deserves an encore! 8)
.
Religion and Politics, Never the twain should meet...
.
A couple of years ago the corporatocracy realized that without lancing some of the boils of the Bushco excesses, the infectious pus would eventually explode in their own faces. Thus the candidacy of "Happy" Obama was hoisted and foisted. Now that Happy O has secured the Demoncrat nomination, the major corporate heads who lined up behind him, (including Rupert Murdoch,) may actually have to back off a little in their public support in order to keep from scaring away middle class dupes who would otherwise elect him to continue the corporate fucking of the world, because he, unlike McCain, would appoint Supreme Court Justices to fuck them with a smile instead of a sneer.
Happy O labels the democratically elected leaders of Venezuela and Ecuador to be enemies of the United States rather than adversaries of the oiligarchy he serves. He says Iran, which has not attacked another country since before the United States was a country, is the biggest threat to world peace.
He has done and will do... nothing for labour law reform. He offers no opportunity to low-income workers, to organise and collectively bargain. He consistently touts corporate interests that benefit the wealthy to the detriment of ordinary Americans.
He says he's against the Iraq war (like someone isn't?) but his plan would keep 50,000 to 80,000 troops there and bases. He has voted for the war except once, funding for the war. He voted to reauthorise the Patriot Act. He wants no criminal penalties for the corporate criminals who illegally wiretap you.
He panders to Israeli lobby groups and supports the militant part of the Israeli approach to oppressing and colonising and occupying the Palestinians.
He consistently ignores problems in the black community to shore up his limited appeal to skittish middle class white voters. "I dunno, he doesn't really SOUND like a negro, what do you think, honey?"
If elected, Happy O will do what he does best, smile a lot and try to keep you smiling until they throw the last shovel of dirt in on top of you.
Since neither Happy O nor Killer McCain has selected a running mate, they can just run heads up, and the loser gets VP. The corporate gods are happy, and 98 percent of the voters go back to the remote. Flip the coin, Rupert. Jobama? Obamacain? It may ease their pain, but the side effects are still 100 percent fatal, and the pus is going to drown you, too.
Faith? Religion? Morals? ... Obama wants to talk about those things, does he. Really?
Well, ok, let's talk about those things but within the following context ...
If the US government bombs Iran, Iran will be the 21st country the US has bombed since the end of World War Two.
That bears repeating ... If the US government bombs Iran, Iran will be the 21st country the US has bombed since the end of World War Two.
With many of these bombings lasting for several *years* (e.g., Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Iraq, etc.).
And so the question, by its very nature, reeks of obscenity; that is to say: What other country has bombed so many countries in a similar period of time?
Can you imagine what the US reaction would have been had the Soviet Union bombed as many countries. Or China. Or if twenty 9/11s had occured in the US over the same period of time.
Notice, too, that the countries the US ruling class bombs are, invariably, third world countries -- with armies that are *dwarfed* in comparison to US military might.
Some of these countries didn't/don't even have air forces (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq).
... Iraq doesn't even have a standing army!
And the US ruling class, via its mainstream media outlets, has the vile, the obscene audacity to talk about "outrageous, aggressive" behavior on the part of Iran!
And where, pray tell, is that savior of the progressive community, "Saint Slick" -- err, I mean, Barack Obama?
Obama, like the rest of the Democratic Party mainstream, is right on board as far as an invasion of Iran is concerned. Commondream readers will remember that several months ago the Senate -- Democrats as well as Republicans -- indicated to Bush that if he goes ahead and invades Iran they won't interfere. … The Senate to Bush: "Invade if you want to."
So, is it any wonder the Democrats have taken impeachment "off the table." Of course they have; and the reason is simple. The Democratic Party, in their ongoing criminal complicity, are as guilty as the Republicans in prosecuting an unjust, illegal, immoral war in Iraq ... an unjust, illegal and immoral war in Afghanistan ... and perhaps yet a *third* unjust, illegal, immoral war in Iran.
At an international war crimes trial, anyone who voted for the War, Democrat or Republican, would be found guilty. Any first-year international law student would be able to win convictions.
And the ruling class knows it.
Why do you think Bush withdrew the US from the ICC, the International Criminal Court. He and his Republican henchmen -- as well as his Democratic enablers -- know full well that the ICC would nail them in a heartbeat.
The US judges at Nuremberg were quite clear as to what the Nazis' basic, underlying crime was -- the crime from which all other Nazi crimes emanated -- and that crime was the unnecessary, unprovoked invasion of another country.
IN SHORT: THOSE WHO VOTED FOR THE WAR IN IRAQ WOULD BE FOUND GUILTY BY THE VERY STANDARDS ESTABLISHED BY THE US JUDGES AT NUREMBERG IN 1945.
Of course, needless to say, this 800-pound gorilla sitting in the middle of the room, that is to say, the Democratic Party as well as mainstream media's complicity as regards the War in Iraq and the proposed war with Iran, is something that Senator Obama will assiduously and obediently ignore.
Saint Obama will continue to act as if he's, literally, "descended from the skies," here to -- hallelujah -- save us all! ... (As Nelson Algren once put it: "However do senators get so close to God?")
Obama's cynical and shameless move to the right since he's gotten the nomination will, if he's elected, only get worse. In short, the Democratic leadership, via their presidential nominee, has YET AGAIN played the liberals in America for the suckers they most certainly are. (Talk about enablers!)
So when you go to the polls, loyal liberals, and pull the lever for Obama, keep in mind that should he win, he will undoubtedly continue to pursue America's "imperial ambitions" -- brutal and mass murdering as those imperial ambitions have been and will continue to be. ... Or, put another way: when the dead bodies continue to pile up, just remember the misery, the carnage and the evil *you* voted for.
NOTE: After World War II was over and the concentration camps were liberated, Einsenhower arranged for busloads of German civilians -- housewives, retirees, factory workers, non-military individuals from all walks of life -- to be bused out to Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Treblinka, all the concentrations camps -- so that the average German, the "good Germans" could see up-close-and-personal precisely what their support for German imperialism produced.
Where are the buses now?
Obama is nothing more than a corporatist candidate — with more corporate money behind him that John McCain!
Obama is a fully-vetted corporatist candidate who is following the exact same strategy that Gore did in 2000 and Kerry did in 2004, and which led, inevitably, to their defeats.
This time-tested *failing* strategy is for the Democratic candidate to move to the right after he secures the nomination, so as to vie for the 1 or 2% of the voting electorate who may go either way, Republican or Democrat.
… Instead of realizing that a significant percentage of the electorate (much, much more than 1% or 2%) is considerably further to the left on all major issues.
If Obama contiues to follow this proven *losing* strategy, guess what: HE'S GONNA LOSE!
The closer Obama moves to McCain, the more people will either vote for McCain ("the real thing"), or else will see essentially no difference between the candidates and not vote at all.
Can you "cruise missile liberals" get that through your thick, delusional skulls???
WITH OBAMA'S STRATEGY OF MOVING TO THE RIGHT, HE'S GONNA LOSE!!!
Mondale in 1984 felt he had to move to the right after he secured the nomination and, guess what — he lost!
Dukakis in 1988 felt he had to move to the right after he secured the nomination and, guess what — he lost!
Gore did the same thing in 2000.
Kerry the same in 2004.
And the only reason Clinton won in 1992 and 1996 was because he ran as a "moderate" Republican.
Barack Obam was NEVER a progressive. Barack Obama is nothing more than a figleaf who, if elected, will continue to support American imperialism; will continue to allow corporate money and corporate power to dominate not only life in the United States but life throughout the world.
If you truly want change, vote for change.
Vote for Nader or vote for McKinney or, better yet, vote for whatever socialist is "allowed" to run in your state. But don't vote for someone who is financed by and will
– logically and inevitably — serve the interests of the ruling class.
WHY
DO
YOU
THINK
THEY'RE
GIVING
OBAMA
ALL
THAT
CORPORATE
DOUGH,
BOYS
AND
GIRLS????????????????
"Cut him some slack. He's trying to win an election in a country were most people believe in creation and few believe in evolution." Pandering to the ignorant. Now, that's what I call "Progressive"!
Ahah! "Bear in mind that only one of two (no, not any far-behind third parties) is going to be your president and appoint your Supreme Court. You can either elect Obama, who is trying to be honest among evangelicals (who WANT to know) about his own acceptance of Jesus WITHOUT "using" that line on every public stump, or you can elect the enigmatic beer-dealing Baptist, John McCain who was so clueless to the real Jesus to think initially that John Hagee and Rod Parsley ought to be his "advisors."" Yeah right. And why is that? Because those that have been screwed by the Democrats continue to bend over. Then there is the little matter of being truthful to one's values. If prostituting yourself to get your candidate elected, to feel good about some fake victory, if this is what matters, then fine, vote for your Obama. But millions are waking up to the fact, the hurting truth, that Democrats, including Obama, are as lying sacks as big as McCain and the Republicans. So go ahead, and vote for YOUR sack. The rest of us will vote for who we actually want, not whom the Party apparatus gives us as an unacceptable fall back choice. As for faith based anything, it has no place whatsoever in the government. Obama knows this, but he has to play to the faith-based. That is what I call despicable manipulation. Obama is a con artist. Finally, this week, many are coming to that conclusion. Finally. As for the "real Jesus", CD readers must assume you know who that is? Where is the historical proof that there ever was a Jesus? Why does this figure even come up? The biggest con job in the history of the world is religion, and Obama is conning the religious. That is, indeed, a big accomplishment. That said, it is septic.
Ira, your article is pathetic but reflects the reality Obama put his supporters in. Lame excuses from some claiming McCain would be worse; so what if Slick Barry lied to us just long enough to secure his position. So what if he did not vocally oppose as he claimed he would, the unconstitutional FISA bill. Sounds a lot like many idiots I listened to for 8 years saying as screwed as we are under Bush, Kerry would have been worse.
If he looked like Kucinich and behaved this way, there would be a draft Hillary movement right now and the press would have put him out of our misery. Odd how they focused on Rev Wright and comments made by Mrs. Slick Barry but give him a relative pass on this BS.
Democrats, this is not the way to decent representation and it should be nipped in the bud as soon as you can find you cojones and brains. The least he could do is refund all contributions to those he lied to.
Everyone talks about "faith" as if it's some sacred password into the realm of the special believing ones. But what is faith? does anyone really know? Everyone seems to talk about it like they know what it is. I thought that I might like to know but unfortunately all those who are so adamant about it are people I choose to avoid. Maybe I'd rather not know.
Well, bye bye! Don't let the door hit ya on your way out!
Tell Ralph I said hello, we broke up in December 2000.
ezeflyer
In fact only about 20 percent say they don't believe in evolution and less that that believe in rapture. This percentage has been a solid block Republican vote (like making wars, the death penalty, social Darwinism, but also like Jesus)so they aren't worth worrying about for Obama anyway. Pandering to them just pisses off his base, and kills enthusiasm. It also takes what was a sure blowout in November and makes it a very close election now. So much for change.
So you would rather have McCain?
Pandering is pandering no matter who is he better or worse actor while doing it. There is absolutely no difference between Obama and McCain. This week has proven that to us.
Uh, right Ira. YOU can vote for this two-faced liar. Not me. I've had quite enough, thank you.
Vote Nader.
Cut him some slack. He's trying to win an election in a country were most people believe in creation and few believe in evolution.
Suffice it to say that some of the foolish have already arrived at this thread and I'll predict now that several more are on the way to say something arrogant and stupid about how bad Obama is.
Bear in mind that only one of two (no, not any far-behind third parties) is going to be your president and appoint your Supreme Court. You can either elect Obama, who is trying to be honest among evangelicals (who WANT to know) about his own acceptance of Jesus WITHOUT "using" that line on every public stump, or you can elect the enigmatic beer-dealing Baptist, John McCain who was so clueless to the real Jesus to think initially that John Hagee and Rod Parsley ought to be his "advisors."
The interesting bit of sleight of hand in this piece is how the author just asserts that McCain would be worse, but then never gives any facts to back it up.
Pretty typical for a Democrat. The fact that McCain is worse is chanted like a mantra. Its thrown out there as an argument as to why people should vote for a candidate (Obama) who is a liar and who's policies most of us oppose.
But when a closer look sees Obama basically pushing the rhetoric of Reagan and the 'faith-based' iniatives of Bush Jr, it really makes one question just exactly how much worse McCain would really be?
The alternative is to back candidates and build a political movement that truly does represent us. We clearly must cut our ties with the Demcorats to do this. So, when you start to realize just how small the differences are between McCain and Obama-the-Reagan-wannabe really is, the question becomes whether that microscopic difference is worth abandoning all of our own political values and goals to obtain.
Note carefully what Obama is not saying. That its a proper role of government to use its resources to fight poverty and inequality. Instead, he blames people and says their problems are their own fault. Instead he tries to say its the role of churches and such groups to try to fix some of the problems that stem from our lazzaire-faire economic policy.
In other words, this is the policy of Reagan. No wonder Obama kept citing him as his political hero. If you want the same crap our political system has been dishing out with Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush, then vote Obama.
If you want real change, vote Green.
Let us prey.
So Obama is now lying to a new group of gullible fools.
I want all relgious "institutions" to pay their full share of property taxes. I want religious leaders to adhere fully to the separation of church and state. I want no support of Israel's occupation of Palestine, nor support of their wars. I want atheists in the white house, senate, house of representatives. I want an end to all religions, so we can truly have world peace.
"He'll gain more votes with all this faith talk than he'll lose."
Once again a well-respected liberal writer has lost all respect from me by virtue of this article. Acknowledging that Obama is simply "talking the talk" of evangelical Christians in his faith-based welfare initiatives support, Chernus is nevertheless willing to give Obama "some slack" because John McCain is so much worse on issues of state and church. The lesser evil again, and I should have thought that a professor of religion might have observed that evil does not come in two sizes, lesser and more-er, and is pronouncing his willingness to accept evil, however much he couches his choice in the secular language of "cutting slack."
Likewise with this one: "Obama does not treat social problems primarily as individual faults the way "compassionate conservatism" does."
Black Americans who found themselves chastised for their "individual faults" in Obama's Father's Day message in Philadelphia might differ a little on this one. In fact, Obama's whole approach to the "race issue" (or as he would have it, non-issue) is to fault blacks as suffering from their own "faults" rather than being victims of "social problems." Again the vote-calculating aspect of this approach is pretty apparent. He might lose a few black votes (from those with enough racial pride to reject these admonishments) but he'll gain a hell of a lot more votes from whites (just like as Chernus says, there are more Christians than Muslims, so there are more white than black voters, so Obama has to run a "white" campaign), since Obama is just the ticket for assuring fearful whites that blacks will stay "in their place," or at least challenge it only as individuals and not as part of any black power movement.
These calculations of political expediency in virtually every move made by the Obama campaign are sickening to me, but apparently Obama supporters like Chernus have stomachs with greater tolerance for political opportunism. Slack, slack, slack!
Dear Mr. Barack Obama:
_
If one of the applicants up for a job in your administration was a known atheist, but was the best qualified and with a superior resume, and experience, would you not hire them because they are an atheist?
_
Secondly, since you partly believe that the problems of the world are rooted in sin, does not the current administration qualify for eternal damnation based upon the fact they: 1) Bore false witness against thy neighbor (Iraq); 2)Coveted thy neighbors goods (oil); 3) Thou shall not kill (1,000,000 Iraqi plus 4,000 plus of our own)?
_
Finally, we need not know that you have accepted Jesus as your savior. That is your personal business. If Jesus, is in fact, your "Lord", then the people have every right to suspect that you will place your allegiance to the Lord above that of the U.S. Constitution. This is unacceptable.
_
JHB
Osame as Clinton is a corporate sell-out, with out principle. Vote Nader/Gonzalez and tell this fool Osame to go fuck himself, because if he is elected I guarantee he will fuck you.