Violence has fallen because we turned security over to whoever wanted to join Iraq security.

Yea, we will get our troops out if that's what they want; but I guarantee we will control their airspace and bomb whoever we want.

But, but but, don't they understand that the usa has to fight people in Iraq so they aren't fighting them in the States!

Maybe the usa isn't like nazi germany after all, could you imagine vichy france asking for a withdrawal timetable from Hitler's Germany?

What's taking the us side so long to respond to this idea anyhow, didn't they see it coming? Silly question, I know, seems bush doesn't see anything that comes at him or his gov't.

The White House said Monday it did not believe al-Maliki was proposing a rigid timeline for U.S. troop withdrawals.

Of course not. Maliki is just taking a page from Obama's political playbook in an increasingly desparate effort to retain some miniscule level of legitimacy in the eyes of those few Iraqis who accorded him any in the first place.

Great point last night on Olberman.

All of these conservative warmongers are going around yelling about how good news is not being reported in Iraq, and how nobody is acknowledging things like coalition deaths at an all time low - or 15 of the 18 Iraqi benchmarks are being met.

Point is it's kinda contradictory and inconsistent for a guy like McCain and the neo-cons to argue that we should be in Iraq for a hundred years, as long as things are going well and there are no casualties - if we've won as they say, why occupy Iraq? Doublethink at it's finest form. And of course their obvious "rationale" (bedime story that they have to tell themselves) is either 1-Well it's a volatile region, and we need a presence in Iraq to control the middle east or 2- Well, if we leave then Iran will gain influence and/or the terrorists will take over.

All neo-con roads for Iraq point towards permanent bases and an imperial presence in Iraq. And how well or how poorly the war goes doesn't matter. I just showed you how if the war supposidly is going spectacularly, conservatives use doublethink to convince themsleves that it's more evidence we should remain. God forbid things go POORLY in Iraq, oh well, my goodness, then we have to stay so our sacrafices were not in vain!!! Good or bad, neo-cons argue for an imperial occupation of Iraq.

On that note, the neo-cons go around now, quite highly of themselves and oblivious, but they go around now and demand that people acknowledge "progress" made in Iraq. This is the same group of neo-cons who refuse to acknowlegdge, and actually get quite hostile and belligerent when you point out that 1 million Iraqi's have dead, millions more wounded/injured, 4-5 million refugees, and about 2 million Iraqis imprisoned. 33% of the Iraqi population has been "whisked away" one way or another. Compound the costs of 1-2 trillion taxpayer dollars, 20,000-25,000 so far per working American. Forget the fact that both the Iraqi government, and Iraqi people demand that the US leave. Amongst other things, if this is "victory" that the neo-cons have long waited for and trumpet, I don't want to know what defeat means.

Point is, why would anyone ever acknowledge your fiction of progress when you refuse to acknowledge all of the consequences/costs of this war? You're insane if you think removal/casualties of 33% of the 30 million population is a "victory."

So when I hear Ollie North on Fox News yell out "The liberals refuse to acknowledge progress in Iraq!" I smile a little. Ohh Ollie, and the neo-cons... so oblivious. They don't get it.

hmmm, i wonder why they would want our 'brave and heroic soldiers who only bring freedom and liberty' the hell out of there...well if you really have the stomach for it take a gander

http://www.marchforjustice.com/5.18.php

thats just one of MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY. whats even worse were the pics of the white phosporis that was used on civilians in Najif, i wont give a link that one though, ill save you from the nightmares they gave me last night after seeing that.

just think, if american media did their job and SHOWED the pictures of burnt civilians and blood on the streets and flag draped coffins of returning dead soldiers, then the american people would have wanted out a LOOOOOONNNNGGGG time ago. Bush and Co are war criminals and any true american will not rest until they are brought to trial ala Nuremburg. This iraq war has lasted longer than WWII did, is something wrong with this picture???!!!

oh and in response to this whitewash bs...Violence in Iraq has fallen to its lowest level in four years. The change has been driven by the 2007 buildup of American forces, the Sunni tribal revolt against al-Qaida in Iraq and crackdowns against Shiite militias and Sunni extremists
----well when a MILLION civilians have already been bombed and hundreds of thousands more have fled, it can't be too surprising that the SURGE WORKS! Hurray America! Bringing Freedom and Democracy American Style! Totally Revolting to say the least...

What did 'truthful' George say? "We will stay until they say 'go'?"
They just said "Go!"

Hopefully al-maliki will be forced to demand our withdrawal. Problem is - if we leave he leaves.

So was George H.W. Bush wrong when he said, "What we say goes"?

Apparently the Iraqis didn't get the memo (I guess Cheney's secretary has been busy): You're not in a position to demand anything ... got it?

we just tryin to hep these arabs and you see how ungratful they are!

It's going to be a real hoot listening to the swaggering Republicrat Plantation Masters explaining to the rest of the world that being told to get our asses out of Iraq doesn't REALLY mean getting our asses out. The equivocations will be mind boggling, jaw dropping and eye popping. It depends on what the meaning of the word is is. Too bad George Carlin couldn't have hung on just a little longer. Al Maliki probably just signed his death warrant. The Black Helicopters will vaporize him, making him a martyr, worsening the situation and hastening our eventual, humiliating departure. Another overwhelmingly great strategic and moral VICTORY for the United States. We're Number One!

Dick Cheney to Iraq:

"So? Go f**k yourselves."

Iraq is the largest government subsidy ever. While the u.s. citizens pay for the war (not with tax dollars, but a crumbling dollar / huge debt / infrastructure / crumbling society) the oil companies reap the profits.

What did you think by putting a texas oil man in the white house.

Are we reaching anyone new on this site? or just pissinng in the wind?

What is the difference between a non-rigid timetable and a non-timetable? Or the difference between non-scheduled and non-rigid timetable?

Whatever else al-Maliki does I'd say he's the patriot o the week for standing up to Bush.

homeward-Angel; A picture tells a thousand words it's true. Thank You.

Not too difficult to understand why America is known as The Great Satan, now is it?

Maliki or another top official will be killed now. Evidence will show that the IED was a sophisticated shaped charge and the fuse/timer had an Iranian 'signature.'

Insane BS to us, it will help foment warlust in Joe American's mind.

Do I put him down? No. He/She put themselves down in the dirt by choosing to not seek to be informed. By valueing cars and things that glitter and their own wants more than what is right.

Now Joe American sleeps with the bedfellows of his creation. In fact is being raped by them.

'bomb the ragheads, how'd our oil get under their sand' oh yeah Joe?

Oh you guys have it all wrong!
Bush should be happy to leave...right now...through Iran!

I saw this as an 'exit strategy' on "The Onion" once...and now I suspect it IS the actual 'exit strategy'!

So if security has improved and the surge worked, then I'm sure Iraqis don't need the occupiers anymore to help.
Hmmm, I wonder why after bringing democracy and security to Iraq the US doesn't want to withdraw, wasn't that the goal of the invasion?

ladybug July 8th, 2008 2:34 pm

Ladybug, part of my post earlier:

And of course their obvious "rationale" (bedime story that they have to tell themselves) is either 1-Well it's a volatile region, and we need a presence in Iraq to control the middle east or 2- Well, if we leave then Iran will gain influence and/or the terrorists will take over.

right, that's the "rationale", but since Iraqi oil is for grab now by Big Oil, I guess Maliki is trying telling Bush: you got our oil, now get your troops ass out of here. Not that Bush and his master Dick the AntiChrist will listen

Mission accomplished! On to Iran and Venezuela!

qbaldsmoove July 8th, 2008 1:37 pm Are we reaching anyone new on this site? or just pissing in the wind?

Both. The hot wind never stops blowing, but the pissing creates an evaporative cooling effect for those with fevered brains. There aren't that many sites like this, as you are probably aware. The investigative arms of the Executive Branch (CIA and FBI) have to read all this stuff in order to keep current on the few people who have the audacity of even trying to think. The investigators, in general, are bright young guys who are amorally drifting through life. In very short order they realize they can make more money in the private sector, or else their consciences grow and they start to loathe themselves and quit for that reason . Either way, the turnover is large, and so Common Dreams has that renewable audience.

Yea, lets see them take time off the table.

Maybe what the opening paragraph of the article says, for it's all I've read of it so far, actually has something to do with the Iraqis in the puppet govt of the U.S. there being concerned about both Western OIL GIANTS and related negotiations proceding very strongly now for Iraq's oil resources, and that combined with maintaining large Western military forces there could instill tremendous fear of LOSING out very much to the west's predators, etcetera. If so, then replacing them as much as possible with Iraqi forces might be enough to help save some real share in their oil resources and profits there-from.

However, if they do have that fear and are really right, then it's surely not going to be likely that they'll win.

The USA didi not build the largest most defended embassy in the world to leave Iraq. The US presence in Iraq and the middle east is permamnent any fool would know that. this US hegemony the same that is used for any government that thinks difffeerntly unless they have the force to say no! That is reality!

1. The sunni are being paid to not fight.
2. The Mahdi army declared a truce
3. All the ethnic cleansing is finished
4. Iran is enforcing a slow down
5. The US has switched to using airplanes, civilian casualties are up

The decrease in casualties is not due to the surge. The US withdrew.

gw-" I do happen to have a time..I mean a date in mind and all of us amerikan deciders that I keep around here, doing their important work of spreading money- I mean liberty to our fiends abroad and oversee too. But to dickclose that time at least in the next dekade would send the wrong reason to the govt- or should say the tearists in Iren a.a..Irak that is,that we don't want them to know about. What i mean is that you are either four us or you thinkin about doinit two us. And that there is why you won't be seein us, except when you don't want to, and thats when we will still be there. dog bless amerika."

"zaz July 8th, 2008 12:42 pm

Hopefully al-maliki will be forced to demand our withdrawal. Problem is - if we leave he leaves."

MOST IRAQIS wouldn't mind that; likely not anyway. But U.S., British, and European OIL giants, and many other oil industry-related, cies, service ones anyway, want Iraq's OIl resources and they are what the war is very about to begin with; besides also establishing a strong U.S. military basing in geo-strategically located Iraq, with respect to Asia, Central anyway, Caspian Sea litoral countries rich in OIL or energy resources and with exploration and ... rights there. It's an agreement by the govts of five countries, and they agreed to share these resources and to also help each other defend against military aggressions from or by other countries, like those of the West surely having been in mind.

The agreement's been reported about and with serious analysis over the past couple of years or so. There've been a number articles on that 5-party or -country agreement at www.globalresearch.ca and all can surely be found linked in the oil and energy index there, or by doing a Web search using the GR domain name and 'Caspian Sea' for search terms. It's an agreement that Iran is party to, along with Russia, Turkmenistan, and two other litoral countries of the Caspian Sea.

It's because the Western oil racketeers are moving in strongly now that I wonder if this wouldn't be the cause of the Iraqi national security adviser saying that U.S. forces are to be withdraw; although I've only read the first paragraph of the article, so far. The U.S. and some coalition allies could still militarily strike from the air or through air space, but perhaps with U.S. forces out, especially if the up to 70,000 private security co. mercenaries are also removed, would make it easier for the weakly positioned Iraqi politicians and other govt officials to gain more share of Iraq's oil or energy resources.

Maybe he's just putting on some fraudulent show for deception. Or perhaps he's serious, honest, ..., but misbelieves the rest of the world will prevent the West from preying too much on Iraqis' resources and economy. Or, maybe he's serious and right about the rest of the world trying to help protect Iraq a [little] for Iraqis; but I doubt the rest of the world would or could. We'd again most likely have very few politicians and mostly civilians protesting.

What's the real reason(s) for his statement?! I wonder.

douglas.....thanks for the comedy.
my question is...what do you REALLY DO as an american, as an earthling, after voicing your opinion on the lies and the killing and marching and telling others and ...and...and then? Monkeywrenching is starting to seem like a positive and progressive choice. what do i mean by monkeywrench?
shut down the fucking recruitment offices. protest that schools have brainwashing military men going to schools. keep to the no-violence stand.
up the anty on the blind prez.
never violent but lets start shaking some things up.
im already on the way.
just want to encourage some theatrical creativity out there.
ITS TRICKSTER TIME KIDS!!!
love ya
b-bye!
(5 years?...id be crying but im numb)
dog bless america
p.s. our flags should be upside down right now.

brotherofrobinhood spoke these words in the heart of the Virtual Forest

my question is…what do you REALLY DO as an american, as an earthling, after voicing your opinion on the lies and the killing and marching and telling others and …and…and then?

I think that everyone who has read and participated in these forums has been asking the same question. Also I believe that we have all been trying hard to change the situation for the better. Every victory brings two defeats it seems, and I for one am really burnin out fast. After the sixties decade, we had a saying, "The revolution is over. We lost. Many of us continued to build our lives around our own value system. Tried to make a few bucks and stay alive. But we did not pursue the sacred dollar, rather made use of the dollar as a result of honest work.

The real jewels in this alternative life are the ones that are contributing right now, they have a never loose approach. I am speaking of the older members of the peace movement. Code Pink, The Raging Grannies, etc. Hope springs forth in the southern hemishere where people are taking control of their own resources, food, and energy. These people have been oppressed for hundred of years. They are determined, and many have died in the struggle.

I hate to sound serious about this, and I like your approach to fun and games! Once again we have an election, that is corrupt by nature and the candidates are tweedle dee and tweedle dum. There is only one answer for me, I give up trying to change the world, and will resume my journey of changing myself. With that said, it opens up a whole new world for positive change. Let the negative change fall where it may. Oh, by the way I am prepared to die like a dog in my effort.

Thanks
Homeward Angel

Victory, we have one, they want us out, they don't need us to police their new Free country.

Americans will forever be in the thoughts of free Iraqis, as the great liberators.

Job well done USA armed forces, come home , we miss you.

Don't worry big oil company's, Iraqi forces will protect you.
Don't worry Haliburton, your investments will be protected.
Don't worry Military complex, the next war is around the corner, or next door to Iraq.

Sorry Men and Women of the USA military, Afghanistan needs to be cleaned up, and Iran needs to be bombed see you in 8 more years, if Armageddon is not reality.

We Americans here at home would help the USA armed forces end these wars, but they don't listen to us anymore.

We here at home have failed you US military, we did not protect the constitution from domestic enemy's while you were fighting our foreign enemy's.

So you will stay at war, as long as corporations,big oil, and the military complex control our country.

For that, I am truly ashamed and apologize.

BornFreeMen

What does bushco care? they got their oil contracts, now the democrats can leave and as the country goes to hell, it'll be all the liberals fault!

I received my Common Dreams bulletin rather late Monday and was not able to read it until early this morning.

Following a similar article regarding Maliki wanting a U. S. timetable for withdrawal, I read one comment about 6am this morning.

I don't remember the time that it was posted yesterday or by whom but it really "made my day" and no one yet has been able to top it.

"Since when do Iraqis get to have a say of what happens in their country?"

And then, just when I thought it was "safe to go back in the water" a little further down I read where someone else said:

"Will the last patriot standing kiss the constitution goodbye"

I will not mention names because I do not come here to do verbal battle with my fellow Common Dreams readers. I have noticed however the absence of several "bloggers" who I considered "regulars" and those who have replaced them are a definite improvement.

I know what you're thinking; now if we can only get rid of this loudmouth.

The war against the previous regime in Iraq has been over since May 2003. The subsequent occupation has gone on for and will continue for a long, long time - regardless of what the Iraqis want. There will be accomodations such as reducing troop levels, keeping them on secure bases somewhat remote from cities and towns (out of sight, so to speak) etc. but I can assure you, America ain't leaving.

Doesn't matter if Maliki says go or stay.
He is a dead-man-walking.

We ain't leaving until the oil is gone.

Somebody needs to send Al Maliki and the Iraqi parlimentarians a copy of the Rolling Stones singing "Time Is On My Side" to encourage them in their intransigence to US imperialism.

"I can assure you, America ain't leaving"

I'm not quite that cynical, the right wing will leave if formally asked. Maliki needs to formally ask the US to leave, that is all and they will leave.

"lizard July 8th, 2008 5:55 pm

1. The sunni are being paid to not fight.
2. The Mahdi army declared a truce
3. All the ethnic cleansing is finished
4. Iran is enforcing a slow down
5. The US has switched to using airplanes, civilian casualties are up

The decrease in casualties is not due to the surge. The US withdrew."

MY COMMENTS ON THOSE POINTS:

1) NOT ALL Sunnis are on U.S. payroll, and many or most, if not all who are, have their own reasons of a strategic nature for accepting this agreement with the U.S. They also committed extreme crimes against [other] Iraqi Sunnis and NON-combatant ones, at that.

2) Not like the Mehdi Army, Sadrists, had much choice; they're far outnumbered on the ground, and have NO air defence! And they're not out to commit mass suicide, and still demand withdrawal of U.S. forces, all of them, including those from private cies.

3) That all ethnic cleansing is terminated needs to be supported with links to reliable sources. I've read from articles by such people and the ethnic cleansing is not likely over yet. What the articles said is learnable through copies of the articles at the 'Brussels Tribunal' (no space and ending with .org) website and can be found using that Web domain(e) name and 'Salvador Option Exposed' for search terms. It's an index page and very good resource. By far most people don't know what many of those articles say, and some astounding, ... information and analysis is provided by Max Fuller.

4) Iran's forcing a slow down on or of what? Iran can't fight against the U.S. superpower in Iraq, certainly can't take the risk, and is only trying to help draw down the situation in Iraq through diplomatic efforts.

5) ... I'll leave this one unaddressed.

As for "The decrease in casualties is not due to the surge. The US withdrew.", the US has NOT withdrawn!

And that's the decrease in casualties of U.S. troops, for like Dave Lindorff says in an article posted at CD on July 7th, so yesterday, as the casualties decline for U.S. forces, they rise and MUCH for Iraqi casualties.

"Keeping Count (When Ours Goes Down, Theirs Goes Up)",

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/07/10188

Found this interesting;

Among the largest oil fields in the world, Rumaila and West Qurna in Iraq will produce for ABOUT $1.00 A BARREL-and it's heading up from $140.00?

No. Actually after israel/amarika bomb Iran it will be $300.00 a barrell-why? Market forces Joe Fox News, Market Forces.

A buck a barrell to produce....And sell for hundreds....

Timetable? When the last drop of oil is extracted, we'll leave.

President Bush has said he opposes a timetable.
-we need more time to steal the precious oil

al-Maliki was proposing a rigid timeline for U.S. troop withdrawals
-not about what Iraqis want, if it were, we would've left a long time ago

increasingly confident in recent weeks about its authority and the country's improved stability
-the occupying power sets the rubric and rules for leaving, not the occupied

Violence in Iraq has fallen to its lowest
-the goal of brutalizing and subjugating the Iraqis into submission has met limited success, thanks in part, to DemocRATic Senators like Obama and Clinton, who voted for the funds needed to continue the occupation through the middle of 2009, regardless of what the Iraqis want.

If the Iraqis balk, the US has threatened to get a 1 year extention from the rubber stamping UN and can expect no real opposition from the erstwhile, "opposition party", DemocRATS.

In the early days Paul Bremer stated that if the Iraqis asked us to leave, we would. Well, they've asked. It would be rude of us to stay.

300 million consumption slaves aware of the chains on their legs:

"The percentage of voters who give Congress good or excellent ratings has fallen to single digits for the first time in Rasmussen Reports tracking history. This month, just 9% say Congress is doing a good or excellent job."

"Voters not affiliated with either party are the most critical of Congressional performance. Just 3% of those voters give Congress positive ratings, down from 6% last month."

Congressional Performance

Commander Bunnypants said "When they ask us to leave, we'll leave." Well, you've been asked. Boston Globe quotes "a US official" who said that PM Maliki was simply talking out loud to his "local and regional" folks and doesn't really mean he wants all US troops out. Of course he was! And that quote is aimed at local and regional Americans who still think we're not occupying Iraq for its oil. Well, let's see how long Maliki survives either literally or politically having said that---another US puppet will somehow "tragically" be removed for disobedience....Poor sap....

rtdrury,

Tell all of us here at Common Dreams how you can purport to be the holiest of holy 300 million consumption slaves. Please, you must be really special...

or really self-stuffed with your own bull shit.

Can we all stop calling the illegal occupation a "war" now for f**ks sake?

According to U.S. State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos:

"The U.S. government and the government of Iraq are in agreement that we, the U.S. government, we want to withdraw, we will withdraw. However, that decision will be conditions-based." Notice how Gallegos did not say that the U.S. government wants to end the "war?"

One would think the leader of a sovereign nation demanding foreign troops leave his country would be condition number one.

America, you don't get it? Get the hell out! Is that plain enough for you?

Didn't McCain give them a timetable already. He said at least 100 years...

They hate our freedom.

From reliable sources:

The government watchers have concluded from this thread that the progressives and antiwar crowd do not think the US will leave and that the USA is all powerful.

So they have decided to recommend staying and ignoring what Iraq wants in order to satisfy American anti war opinion.

They also thank you for giving them complete psychological control over your minds.

Okay Jim, but if the government listens to our threads and wants to satisfy us why did they just pass the FISA ammnedment if we oppose it? Oh, wait a minute, I get it, it is because we knew it was going to pass. Got it.

The American people don't want our troops there, now the Iraqis are speaking out, too. We have not been able to budge stubborn Dubya and his acolyte McCain; maybe Maliki and the Iraqis can!