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Nuclear Recycling Fails the Test
Over the past few years, attention to the recycling of nuclear power spent fuel has grown. Fears of global warming due to fossil fuel burning have given nuclear energy a boost; over the next 15 years dozens of new power reactors are planned world-wide. To promote nuclear energy, the Bush administration is seeking to establish international spent nuclear fuel recycling centers that are supposed to reduce wastes, recycle uranium, and convert nuclear explosive materials, such as plutonium to less troublesome elements in advanced power reactors.
Advocates, such the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think-tank, argue that used fuel at U.S. power plants contain enough energy "to power every U.S. household for 12 years." Heritage points out that nuclear recycling "can be affordable and is technologically feasible. The French are proving that on a daily basis. The question is: Why can't oui?"
The key to recycling is being able to reuse materials while reducing pollution, saving money and making the earth a safer place. On all accounts, nuclear recycling fails the test.
Nuclear Recycling and the Environment
In order to recycle uranium and plutonium in power plants, spent fuel has to be treated to chemically separate these elements from other highly radioactive byproducts. As it chops and dissolves used fuel rods, a reprocessing plant releases about 15 thousand times more radioactivity into the environment than nuclear power reactors and generates several dangerous waste streams. If placed in a crowded area, a few grams of waste would deliver lethal radiation doses in a matter of seconds. They also pose enduring threats to the human environment for tens of thousands of years.
In Europe reprocessing has created higher risks and has spread radioactive wastes across international borders. Radiation doses to people living near the Sellefield reprocessing facility in England were found to be 10 times higher than for the general population. Denmark, Norway, and Ireland have sought to close the French and English plants because of their radiological impacts. Discharges of Iodine 129, for example, a very long-lived carcinogen, have contaminated the shores of Denmark and Norway at levels 1000 times higher than nuclear weapons fallout. Health studies indicate that significant excess childhood cancers have occurred near French and English reprocessing plants Experts have not ruled out radiation as a possible cause, despite intense pressure from the nuclear industry to do so.
Nuclear recycling in the U.S. has created in one of the largest environmental legacies in the world. Between the 1940's and the late 1980's, the Department of Energy (DOE) and its predecessors reprocessed tens of thousands of tons of spent fuel in order to reuse uranium and make plutonium for nuclear weapons.
By the end the Cold War about 100 million gallons of high-level radioactive wastes were left in aging tanks that are larger than most state capitol domes. More than a third of some 200 tanks have leaked and threaten water supplies such as the Columbia River. The nation's experience with this mess should serve as a cautionary warning. According to DOE, treatment and disposal will cost more than $100 billion; and after 26 years of trying, the Energy Department has processed less than one percent of the radioactivity in these wastes for disposal. By comparison, the amount of wastes from spent power reactor fuel recycling in the U.S. would dwarf that of the nuclear weapons program - generating about 25 times more radioactivity.
The "Once Through" and "Closed" Nuclear Fuel Cycles
For 30 years the U.S. has refrained from reprocessing commercial spent power reactor fuel to use plutonium in power plants. Instead intact spent fuel rods were to be sent directly to a repository - a "once through" nuclear fuel cycle. Radioactive materials in spent fuel are bound up in ceramic pellets and are encased in durable metal cladding, planned for disposal deep underground in thick shielded casks.
Although the U.S. continued to reprocess spent fuel from military reactors, the "once through" fuel cycle was adopted by President Carter in 1977 for commercial nuclear power. Three years earlier, India had exploded a nuclear weapon using plutonium separated from power reactor spent fuel at a reprocessing facility. President Ford responded in 1976 by suspending reprocessing in the United States. President Carter converted the suspension into a ban, while issuing a strong international policy statement against establishing plutonium as fuel in global commerce. President Carter's decision reversed some 20 years of active promotion by DOE's predecessor, the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission (AEC), of the "closed" nuclear fuel cycle. The AEC had spent billions of dollars in an attempt to commercialize reprocessing technology to recycle uranium and provide plutonium fuel for use in "fast" nuclear power reactors.
Recycling advocates are seeking to overturn this long-standing policy and point to a new generation of "fast" reactors to breakdown plutonium so it can't be used in weapons. Since the 1940's, it was understood that "fast" reactors generate more subatomic particles, known as neutrons, than conventional power plants and it is neutrons which split uranium atoms to produce energy in conventional reactors. The U.S. actively promoted plutonium-fueled fast reactors for decades because of the potential abundance of neutrons, declaring that they held the promise of producing electricity and making up to 30 percent more plutonium than they consumed.
With design changes, fast reactors are, ironically, being touted in the U.S. as a means to get rid of plutonium. However, the experience with "fast reactors" over the past 50 years is laced with failure. At least 15 "fast" reactors have been closed due to costs and accidents in the U.S., France, Germany, England, and Japan. There have been two fast reactor fuel meltdowns in the United States including a mishap near Detroit in the 1960's. Russia operates the remaining fast reactor, but it has experienced 15 serious fires in 23 years.
Plutonium makes up about 1 percent of spent nuclear fuel and is a powerful nuclear explosive, requiring extraordinary safeguards and security to prevent theft and diversion. It took about 6 kilograms to fuel the atomic bomb that devastated Nagasaki in 1945. Unlike plutonium bound up in highly radioactive spent nuclear fuel, separated plutonium does not have a significant radiation barrier to prevent theft and bomb making, especially by terrorists.
Plutonium is currently used in a limited fashion in nuclear energy plants by being blended with uranium. Known as mixed oxide fuel (MOX), it can only be recycled once or twice in a commercial nuclear power plant because of the buildup of radioactive contaminants. According to a report to the French government in 2000, the use of plutonium in existing reactors doubles the cost of disposal.
The unsuccessful history of fast reactors has created a plutonium legacy of major proportions. Of the 370 metric tons of plutonium extracted from power reactor spent fuel over the past several decades, about one third has been used. Currently, about 200 tons of plutonium sits at reprocessing plants around the world - equivalent to the amount in some 30,000 nuclear weapons in global arsenals.
Recycled Uranium
In 2007 the International Atomic Energy Agency concluded that "reprocessed uranium currently plays a very minor role in satisfying world uranium requirements for power reactors." In 2004, about 2 percent of uranium reactor fuel in France came from recycling, and it appears that it now has dwindled to zero. There are several reasons for this.
Uranium, which makes up about 95 percent of spent fuel, cannot be reused in the great majority of reactors without increasing the levels of a key source of energy, uranium 235, from 1 to 4 percent, through a complex and expensive enrichment process.
Reprocessed uranium also contains undesirable elements that make it highly radioactive and reduces the efficiency of the fuel. For instance, the build up of uranium 232 and uranium 234 in spent fuel creates a radiation hazard requiring extraordinary measures to protect workers. Levels of uranium-236 in used fuel impede atom splitting; and to compensate for this "poison, recycled uranium has to undergo costly "over-enrichment." Contaminants in reprocessed uranium also foul up enrichment and processing facilities, as well as new fuel. Once it is recycled in a reactor, larger amounts of undesirable elements build up - increasing the expense of reuse, storage and disposal. Given these problems, it's no surprise that DOE plans include disposal of future reprocessed uranium in landfills, instead of recycling.
Costs
As a senior energy adviser in the Clinton administration, I recall attending a briefing in 1996 by the National Academy of Sciences on the feasibility of recycling nuclear fuel. I'd been intrigued by the idea because of its promise to eliminate weapons-usable plutonium and to reduce the amount of waste that had to be buried, where it could conceivably seep into drinking water at some point in its multimillion-year-long half-lives.
But then came the Academy's unequivocal conclusion: the idea was supremely impractical. It would cost up to $500 billion in 1996 dollars and take 150 years to accomplish the transmutation of plutonium and other dangerous long-lived radioactive toxins. Ten years later the idea remains as costly and technologically unfeasible as it was in the 1990s. In 2007 the Academy once again tossed cold water on the Bush administration's effort to jump start nuclear recycling by concluding that "there is no economic justification for going forward with this program at anything approaching a commercial scale."
Meanwhile, the client base for Areva, the French nuclear recycling company, has shrunk to one new contract for a relatively small amount of spent fuel from the Netherlands. Most revealing is that its main customer, the French utility, Electricité de France, is balking at doing further business unless the price goes down - something that Areva says it can't do. It appears that even the French may be starting to say no instead of oui.




36 Comments so far
Show AllWell well, what do you "nuker lovers" have to say about this? I can hardly wait to see.
We humans can have solar, wind, geo-thermal, tidal and wave generated electrical power on a massive world-wide scale, that would give us as much, or even far more power than we currently require and also create millions of good paying jobs doing it.
We must stop burning fossil fuels, or the global warming will continue until we destroy ourselves and almost all other life on Earth. We are either insane to not correct the madness, or horribly ignorant and misinformed.
I don't buy a word of it. This guy doesn't even know how to spell "nukyuler".
Kem- Even if there was a MASSIVE worldwide program to adopt alternative energy, it still wouldn't provide even a tenth of the power we presently use.
And don't get me started on how the alternative energy systems physically CAN'T replace the diversity of products, many of which are VITAL to alternative energy systems, which presently depend on hydrocarbon/petroleum for their very existence.
The real laugh is, to power the reprocessing/separation equipment, you are using electricity generated in the majority by burning coal or natural gas.
i will examine the author's claims, but at this point i doubt his objectivity due to the fact that nowhere in the piece does he mention breeder technology, which must be a major theme in any useful discussion of reprocessing.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1295/is_n10_v62/ai_21200692
Get over it!
You CANNOT recycle radioactivity. Refined it is here to stay and say and stay, and there it remains many life times after you are dead. Do not split hairs with me on the different types of isotopes. We will never be able to exist side by side safely with this crap.
I do not want my world and future generations to be doomed because someone else wanted to make a quick buck, or that some NUT wanted the rest us to face the RAPTURE.
Galen:
Whenever I hear someone say that renewable energy can't possibly meet our energy needs, I can't help but wonder where they get their facts (the nuclear lobby, perhaps).
Here is an Feb 2008 article from Scientific American (not a radical publication, by any means) that disagrees with your blanket statement: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan
They say:
A massive switch from coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear power plants to solar power plants could supply 69 percent of the U.S.'s electricity and 35 percent of its total energy by 2050.
If a conservative scientific publication sees the potential of renewables, why can't you? They provide a detailed plan and assessment of how to do it. So, where are your facts coming from?
Leaperz - It's not that I deny the usefulness of renewables and alternatives. It's that I question the near fetishistic dogmatism that 'science and technology will save us'. What most of the 'science will save us' crowd will not admit, especially to themselves, is that the very resource that is poisoning the planet and causing climate chance is also the feedstock for most of the innards of the technology they are promoting. And if it is not made directly out of petroleum, the materials that the technology IS made out of is extracted by using equipment that is POWERED by petroleum.
Add to that the fact that if the entire world switched over at once to the alternative technologies, the materials vital to make those technologies will be exhausted, which will drive the price of the needed technologies out of the reach of those who require them. And we STILL will not be able to turn solar power into CD's. Or fertilizers. Or asphalt. Or any of the multitude of other petroleum based products.
High technology, and the society that depends on it, is on a finite timeline that we are coming to the end of.
I am not a denier. I am a realist.
My sources are 'View From The Peak', 'Powerdown', 'The Party's Over', and 'The Long Emergency'.
kloro July 7th, 2008 5:00 pm
Beat me to it.
"solar, wind, geo-thermal, tidal and wave generated electrical power on a massive world-wide scale"
It would have to be massive, but what about the energy required 20 years from now. Would this fullfill those needs, even if this was possible now? And except for Geo-thermal power how do you store the power generated by the others till its needed?
Geo-thermal, Wave and tidal are constant power sources ~Thomas~ and they are viable and affordable alternatives which have been well proven to work very well. There is far enough of that free and clean energy to supply all of humanity's electrical needs for many thousands of years, perhaps forever. In some geographical locations, wind is also almost constant 24/7, solar power towers are near constant and none of them pollute our atmosphere, none of them require mining of fuel, the fuel is free.
A "combination" (please heed that word) COMBINATION, of ALL of those clean energy sources combined with current hydro-electric, would easily furnish all of the power required and if our populations continue to develop at the same rate as it currently does, we would have to add more clean energy plants ___ just as we currently add more coal and nuclear power plants.
Some here do not understand the meaning of the word "massive" when applied to the subject.
Answer this, especially those who are thinking in terms of the years 2050 to 2080. When the finite uranium sources run out, what type of fuel do you percieve will be used to furnish electrical power? Gonna burn more coal, "clean coal" I presume? Haa Haa ha. PLEASE ANSWER THAT!!! We either stop burning coal, or we kill the planet, and time is running out to stop. Any who deny that are not worth talking to.
Thomas More and Galen point out one of the elephants in the closet but the even bigger one is population growth.
More people require more energy.
And it's a specious argument to claim that an economy cannot grow if the population cannot grow. I guarantee you that if the population started to naturally shrink, but the lifestyles of those left was rising fast enough, you would see plenty of 'growth' potential in the market. With 5 billion people in poverty on this planet there is vast capacity for economic growth even if the population remains static or slowly shrinks.
Galen is right to point out that we have to transition to a renewable energy economy because we have simply not developed equivalent products out of anything other than petroleum. The fact that not one single world leader has scientific advisers at cabinet level will not help (except by pure chance Angela Merkel, who was a physicist herself).
Ultimately, given a forever rising population, even renewables will not be the answer. We know of only one source that could be, fusion power. This is under developement in Europe (ITER) and Japan will likely get the first true fusion source sometime in the 2030 time frame....and that's just the first one!
The world will be a painful place to survive in for most people long before then.
Hi ~GALEN~ You are saying the materials required to construct suffecinet clean electrical power plants, would be more than that reqired to build more nuclear and coal fired plants and therefore it is not realistic to consider doing it. You have any numbers or figures? Nuclear and coal fired plants are Okay with you?
Well I strongly disagree with yur assumptions. For one thing, we would not have to continue mining uranium and coal. The amount of materials required to have suffecient clean enegy plants in the U.S., would very likely be far less than that needed to build five aircraft carriers and their aircraft. ___ Make it seven. ___ I am certain that far less materials would be required than what is currently used to construct giant amusement parks, or several high rise building monstrosities. I do believe your comments are "unrealistic", especially for a "realist".
Kem - nope.I'm just saying it is time to unhitch ourselves from this coming train wreck an coast to a low energy future, where unfortunately, the majority of the work will have to be performed by brute muscle power, provided by either animals or humans.
Kem Patrick there is a problem with your argument. It doesn't stack up.
One aircraft carrier powers itself with only two nuclear reactors. One (the small one) runs the catapult that puts the jets into the air (I'm going to ignore the fossil fuels for the jets for the moment.)
The other one powers the entire rest of the aircraft carrier. this supplies power to keep 5000 people in comfort and the ability to move a piece of metal 1/2 a mile long across the ocean.
That's what one power plant can do. A small one.
A typical power plant of any type is around one to ten billion watts. They are all that way because if you make them bigger the losses build up in the transmission lines and energy is wasted as heat.
It doesn't take rocket science to then look up the US energy consumption in kilowatt hours for a year, find out on average how many trillions of watts that is on average every day, and get a good estimate of how many coal fired power plants there are in the United STates. I am sure you will come up with some number that is more than 1000 times larger than 'seven'.
That's just so we can turn on our lights at night.
Galen's point is that this kind of sheer scale is what would need to be utterly replaced and we are simply not up to it. We'd be in better shape if Reagan hadn't killed Carter's energy research programme back in the 80's as a political maneuvre and replaced it with an oil policy but there we go.
I am sure that Galen, Thomas Moore, and maybe Kloro like myself completely support renewable sources and indeed I desperately want to see them developed and more effort put into their use!
But the quickest solutions must also be implemented as well if we are to stop a complete crash and that means, in ADDITION:
Conservation
Renewables
Nuclear
Carbon Capture coal
Fuel cell and battery technology
While we continue to fund the only serious contender to eventually putting us back on the exponential growth curve, Fusion power.
None of us deny the importance of Renewable sources. We only can see their very finite limitations already. Even Scientific American recognised this.
Personally I would like to see nuclear further down that list because the waste issue is not a solved one. But I do not think it can be easily neglected.
Nuclear can only reach its potential if breeder reactor technology is introduced to use reprocedssed nuclear fuel. This has long been known. Some breeder techologies are well developed but has not been iontroduced because of the current relatively low price of natural uranium. When energy prices rise substantially and uranium costs go up ,a revival of interest in the commercial development of breeder reactors will resurface; currently there is recognition and future development plans for all this in nuclear countries. Not well known, is that there is a breeder technology that has been underdeveloped that is potentially safer than current commercial plants ,and "recycles" nuclear fuel continously within the nuclear reactor system.That technology is the socalled "Molten Salt breeder reactor" which has circulating liquid nuclear fuel.It extends the available nuclear fuel many times over.It is called a 4th generation concept,but is receiving almost no development funding or public attention.Needless to say, the technology is far different from that provided by current nuclear corporations,so they have no interest in sinking the billions of dollars to develop. There are options to burn the radioactive wastes in the reactor or remove them to maximize the possible energy generation. However, it must be said that there will always be some radioactive waste materials that have to be concentrated and buried somewhere,and gaseous wastes are generally diluted to what is accepted innocuous levels and released.What is innocuous is debated.The options are few and have been known for a long time.We need all of them.I used to worry about society dragging its feet. Now I don't. When serious energy crunches come,the appropriate options will be implemented,albeit at a much increased drag on society than otherwise would have incurred if human infrastructure was more organized;but,hey, that's who we are.So go with it.
The greatest traps with nuclear power are obtaining the *finite* amount of uranium ore, processing it using mostly hydrocarbons/petroleum/natural gas, and then storing the incredibly radioactive and toxic end product, which will remain DEADLY for millions of years.
Other than that, and the very real and undeniable danger of nuclear power plant accidents (Three Mile Island and Chernobyl are the best examples), there are no real problems with nuclear power.
nukes = cancer forever increasing.
Uhhhh~Physicscitizen~ that's funny. You missed the point entirely. ___ I was NOT referring to nuclear power plants on aircraft carriers. Gheeze, so many who post here at C/D have reading disabilities.
~Galen~ had posted that the materials required to build clean energy electrical power plants was far more than they were worth. I was saying the materials required to construct the plants would be equivelant to building several aircraft carriers and the aircraft they carry. Not talking about the power plants on the ships at all. Please re-read what we posted.
Evidently some here are totally unaware of the fact that clean energy, using geo, solar, wind, tidal and wave energy is a very viable alternative to nuclear. You have not studied the possibilities of those options.
And ~Galen~ is correct, uranium is a finite source of fuel and supplies will run out by 2050, then wheer do we go? __Coal? We must stop burning coal and do so very soon. We might as well begin to develop clean energy now and forget nuclear.
BTW, here is a great link, nuclear is a horrible choice.
http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chapter1.html
Those who say we must rely on more nuclear are usually in denial as to why people oppose it. They dismiss all objections by saying "But we need it".
But do we? Before we must rely on so toxic and risk inherent process of energy production, perhaps they should explain why less hostile (to humanity) technologies are not exploited FIRST?
Every roof on a home or building and all parking lots should have solar and be connected to the grid to produce excess power which would be used elsewhere. If nothing else, in sunny places like Arizona, people could halve or better their states daytime energy use in two or three years. In time the states whole daytime energy use could be handled by extensive solar enery power plants.
Similarly with wind power. Every new office building should be required to have it's own windmill (saving 20% on energy cost)" Every small town and hamlet should have a windmill to produce locally generated power for emergencies and lowering daily energy costs. Farmers want windmills on their farms to bring in revenue and yet they are being stymied by red tape which adds years to the approval process.
Why these steps are not being taken, needs be explained before people feed the need to take such nuclear risks because industry investors say it is necessary.
I skimmed this after work but didn't get back until just now. The eye opener for me is the report card for the Sellefield, UK and La Hague, France reprocessing plants cited in the article. The EU atomic fathers have adopted the "Precautionary Principle" stating that emissions should not increase naturally occuring radiactive elements in the environment, and should not introduce new elements into the environment.
The report makes a strong argument that both facilities violate this principle. Secondly, the article makes the case that these plants contribute very little fuel and may be piling up un-needed Plutonium. It sounds like these plants should be shut down if the emissions cannot be eliminated or reduced to more tolerable levels.
One of the Generation IV concepts is fast reactors running on unenriched uranium or DU. The high level waste would be recycled on site, and high level waste from enriched uranium fueled plants could be "burned up". Build the plant, charge it with DU, bring in outside waste for burn up, and let it safely produce electricity for 80 years. At the end of its life, nothing to dispose of but "short" lived fission products. Burning unenriched uranium (and DU) could extend uranium supplies to hundreds or even thousands of years.
If these fast reactors with on-site recycling come on line, they should be held to the precautionary principle as much as possible, and the public right-to-know of any exceptions should be enforced. Another part of the Gen IV fast reactor concept is that no usable Plutonium would be produced.
India is building what sounds like Plutonium producing breeders. That could be a security nightmare. I'd like to think that once perfected, some sort of Gen IV fast reactor running on DU and recycling waste is the future of nuclear energy, and possibly the biggest part of the GHG and energy independence solution. But as the article says, the recycling technology and stuff like liquid sodium have a long way to go.
Galen: "Even if there was a MASSIVE worldwide program to adopt alternative energy, it still wouldn't provide even a tenth of the power we presently use"
The per-capita US energy consumption is unsustainable. Such consumption motivates and requires unsustainable sources such as nuke, but it can't justify nuke.
The world average per-capita energy consumption is much lower that that and is sustainable using renewable energy sources. The goal should be to shrink US energy consumption and allow the least developed countries to expand their energy consumption until an equitable allocation is reached.
Renewable sources will cover this allocation using less than one percent of the land surface and less than ten percent of current land dedicated to crops. Of course when meat production is curtailed then the share of crop land dedicated to energy will grow but this will not affect food security or wildlife habitat.
As for nuke fuel recycling, the article above isn't very convincing but it would come as no surprise if the process is economically infeasible. The nuke industry never bothered to level with the public about the full costs. Sooner or later the public is going to get wise and stop funding these racketeers who deliberately withhold information.
bbr
do you work for the nuke industry?
Imagination fused with intuition tells me that those who survive 50-80 years into the future IF these technologies are taken up instead of the renewables will be beset with ghastly tumors, body deformities will become THE norm. Further, the law of karma may operate in such a way that the ones diminished by such deformity will have been those pro-militarism, those who applauded the leveling of Iraq and the virtual spraying of its population with D.U.
I hope I'm wrong but I have "gotten" this vision more than once.
To clarify, I mean to say the ones in favor of war without cause, war that has brought a rain of radiation onto innocents, will themselves REINCARNATE to know the "pleasures" of such exposure.
Hi ~SUE~ Thank you for that. You know, just thirty some years ago we didn't have all of these cancer treatment centers and daily TV ads for them. Almost every average sized city has one or two now and metro areas have many of them. They make lots of money trying scads of different expermental treatments. Sometimes they work too. Usually over time they don't.
We have a good friend who works with Hospice and they are overwhelmed with work, the old and all the way down to young children who are dying with untreatable cancers. But it isn't because of nuclear power or "DU" use. ___ "Oh no, nuclear is safer than automobiles or handguns". Yeah, so what, there is a big difference between an accident or a murder and a silent, invisible killer. The silent, unnecessary, deadly, man made, radiation poisons, which should not be there is far different.
Up until 1977, we personally only knew of one child who had cancer. Those years were nothing like the current situation and autism was quite rare when we were growing up, now it's epidemic. DU and atomic power plants "silent" and deadly emissions? I believe so.
Well, if we continue our ways of burning fossil fuels, I am fairly certian none will be here in 2050or 60 to discuss the issue. That's sad and a damn shame for the next generation, they don't have a say about it.
KEM PATRICK July 7th, 2008 7:49 pm
any who deny that are not worth talking to.
Kem Patrick, when you end a statement with this, you are saying that if someone doesn't agree with your opinion then they aren't worth talking to. That seems to preclude discussion to me. I don't agree with all your statements so I'm not worth talking to.
physicscitizen July 7th, 2008 8:46 pm
I am sure that Galen, Thomas Moore, and maybe Kloro like myself completely support renewable sources
Correct.
Personally I would like to see nuclear further down that list because the waste issue is not a solved one. But I do not think it can be easily neglected.
Also correct.
Excellent postings.
Unfortunately wind power is not always constant, certainly not in Texas, some places sure. Geothermal is constant, wave generation fluctuates with the tide, but by any measurement they cannot replace our current energy needs.
It would seem to me we need to curtail our use and lessen our need for energy. And yes, we will have to use new coal and natural gas generating plants. There simply isn't any real choice.
I suspect that places like California that don't generate their own power will be left out in the cold. We've got Wind generatioon going in like gangbusters here, far more than any other state.
Guess what? Just yesterday the first of the attacks from the traditional power companies started. Presentation before our PUC about undependability of wind power.
KEM PATRICK July 8th, 2008 12:11 am
He was trying to point out how small nuculear plants can serve a large amount of people, I'm quite sure he got the point.
The French seem to be doing quite well so far with it.
Kem...........The amount of materials required to have suffecient clean enegy plants in the U.S., would very likely be far less than that needed to build five aircraft carriers and their aircraft. ___ Make it seven. ___ I am certain that far less materials would be required than what is currently used to construct giant amusement parks, or several high rise building monstrosities. I do believe your comments are "unrealistic", especially for a "realist".
Would you mind backing that up with some facts and figures?..Thanks!
Thanks Thomas Moore! I appreciate the help!
KEM Patrick, you do not do yourself any service by ignoring the vagaries of wind, solar, tides, and yes, even geothermal energy.
Why do we like cars, and coal fired power plants?
It is because the energy is available on demand.
This is because that energy is efficiently stored in a compact form. Coal is easy to transport and releases a lot of energy when burned...as does gasoline. I like to think of them the same way I think of a battery.
And that's the key development we really need in order to make all these wonderful (and I'm not being sarcastic..they really are wonderful) renewable sources serious contenders. We need a battery that weighs less than a full tank of gasoline, but contains the equivalent energy of a full tank of gasoline.
When we are able to store the energy we extract from those renewable sources and then dump it back on to the grid (or in your electric car) when you want it then a very serious key advance has just been made.
One way to do this is to use all these renewable sources to generate hydrogen gas. This can then be transported and used on demand. Again, the explosive gas is really just like a battery, storing energy for use later.
Now let me point out some problems with these renewables. some are obvious.
Solar: It isn't daylight all the time, and even during daylight you are subject to the weather...
Wind: Weather problem again and general unreliability
Tides: Not all tides are the same. Some, like the Bristol Channel have a great deal of potential, but even so, do you really want to destroy large sections of your coastline for power generation? What about all those saltwater marshes we'd need to dig up? Not as 'green' a technology as it would first appear.
Geothermal: Ask a New Zealander sometime about what happens when you use Geothermal. There was a beautiful hot spot, kind of like Yellowstone, in New Zealand with all kinds of incredible soda formations and hot springs. The New Zealanders started to exploit that hot-spot for heat and power generation. Well they ended up cooling it down so much that a minor earthquake occurred and completely shut down the water source of the soda formations...which then quickly washed away after several years of rains. So even if you happen to live in one of those very rare places where you CAN use Geothermal, there may be severe limits on how much you actually WANT to use.
Hydroelectric dams: Well...we all know the green controversies over damms. But I'd rather Las Vegas was powered by Hoover Damm than by a couple of coal power plants. (Actually, I'd rather people just didn't gamble, but I'm not foolish enough to believe this is possible.)
Now you, Kem Patrick asked a couple of times what other alternative we have because you correctly point out that oil and gas resources are certainly finite even if we DO burn them as fast as we can to maintain our current lifestyle.
I did say the answer but you might have missed it.
Fusion power. the same mechanism that powers the sun.
this is fundamentally different from Nuclear power.
It is not perfect (certainly not the first generation fusion plants because they have to use tritium). Even the cleanest far future fusion reactor isn't completely clean, but there are disposal issues with all forms of human construction and the point is to minimize them given what we get out of it. The reaction that powers the sun is nature's most efficient and produces only non-radioactive Helium as waste. It is so very hard to accomplish that if you get anything at all wrong the reaction just doesn't happen....a kind of moron-proof safety that you simply cannot put a price on.
Too bad we as a people gave up on it's development for 20 years, otherwise we'd be building the first viable reactor today instead of looking at it for 2030.
The Atlanteans did not heed the warnings when at first nature began to radically change around them. There have been places swallowed up--by volanic ash, earthquake, mud slide, flood IN A DAY. We all want to preserve a lifestyle that is NOT sustainable... ironically, in pursuit of so many THNEEDS (as Dr. Seuss termed them), we have let what really matters atrophy: And that is caring about our fellow human beings.
Through a number of processes that have already begun (the tsunami, the quakes, fires, food "shortages") the culling of numbers has begun. We do not have the luxury of time... the Indian seer Sun Bear (That is a title, there were many of them) explained that one day the white man would have to return to ask the Indigenous how to survive. It is only through simplicity.
KEM: I applaud your CARING about people and their health. That is commendable. I notice no one wants to speak about the epidemic of cancer that is now big business in America. Did Naomi cover the made-for-capitalism-diseases/disease complex in her book on DISASTER capitalism? If not, sounds like a sequel.
I did some astrological work in the Keys where on one block NINE women all had the same cancer, and another Key where 3 had brain cancer. I am not sure if it's something in the water, some residue from the navy base down there, or what... but these clusters definitely raise alarm bells. I use baking soda (no scent whatsoever) instead of deodorant... I really believe the heavy metals and chemicals that make people NOT sweat clam up the lymph nodes which in women can play a role in breast malfunction.
Now as for all the prostate cancers? What's the preservative in beer? How many foods involve carcinogenic by products that "enhance shelf life." A friend of mine moved to Belize and did some work for a millionaire who said he was in the "industrial foods" business. Talk about an oxymoron. So much of this co-opting what belongs to the great Mother/nature began with breast milk substitutes... BIRTH envy and the co-optation of what belongs to the great SHE and bearer/sustainer of life... stripped of her assets and capacity to heal, species by species, ecosystem by ecosystem until the whole thing is cement and sewers. This is what happens when MEN do not respect the DIVINE FEMININE! And I will not tire of bring that TRUTH into this forum... we can play our mastabatory mental games about this political party or that one, but the CONSCIOUSNESS is what's off-center and until balance returns, very little will mean more than shit to a tree. (Thank you, Grace Slick!)
physicscitizen-
The problem of storing the energy from solar power for times when the sun is not shining has already been solved, as referenced in the Scientific American article I mentioned in an earlier post.
"Pressurized Caverns
The great limiting factor of solar power, of course, is that it generates little electricity when skies are cloudy and none at night. Excess power must therefore be produced during sunny hours and stored for use during dark hours. Most energy storage systems such as batteries are expensive or inefficient.
Compressed-air energy storage has emerged as a successful alternative. Electricity from photovoltaic plants compresses air and pumps it into vacant underground caverns, abandoned mines, aquifers and depleted natural gas wells. The pressurized air is released on demand to turn a turbine that generates electricity, aided by burning small amounts of natural gas. Compressed-air energy storage plants have been operating reliably in Huntorf, Germany, since 1978 and in McIntosh, Ala., since 1991. The turbines burn only 40 percent of the natural gas they would if they were fueled by natural gas alone, and better heat recovery technology would lower that figure to 30 percent.
Studies by the Electric Power Research Institute in Palo Alto, Calif., indicate that the cost of compressed-air energy storage today is about half that of lead-acid batteries. The research indicates that these facilities would add three or four cents per kWh to photovoltaic generation, bringing the total 2020 cost to eight or nine cents per kWh."
But, as other posters have noted, unless we get the population under control, technology is not going to save us. However, decentralized power sources rather than monstrous high-tech centralized sources are a far better bet. The fastest growing area now in the power industry is microgeneration: community-owned wind farms, factories using co-generation, solar captured for homes and businesses, and so on. A decentralized power model is healthier for humans and a far better option for scaling down our over-consumptive habits.
Leaperz July 8th, 2008 5:04 pm
Very interesting. Can this be improved on?
But I believe that was the point physicscitizen and others have been trying to make.
Even the compressed air technology you note is added to natural gas generation for a total generation. So you need a combination of things to get us through till Fusion or whatever new energy source it is can be perfected or corrected.
The U.S. has coal for hundreds and hundreds of years so we won;'t run out of energy. Its a question of how we generate it, not if. No one is going back to hunter/gatherer groups or do away with technology. Half our citizens would starve.
Leaperz! Well done! I'd forgotten about that, thanks for reminding me.
This might not even require the kind of huge underground systems that are advocated in Scientific American.
I remember my Grandmother was not connected to the natural gas network, she has a big propane tank in her back yard that someone came to fill every once in a while.
Putting a big pressure tank of a similar size (the thing was the size of a mini-bus) and then a solar cell network to keep the tank pumped up satisfies many good things in my book!
And it doesn't create evil hydrogen as a by-product! Would be a LOT safer than pumping natural gas into your home. I really like it!
Side note: Why the use of hydrogen is evil.
As we all know, hydrogen is lighter than air. When it leaks it heads right up into the upper atmosphere where it can react with ozone. Unlike flurocarbons the hydrogen is destroyed in the process and isn't a catalyst, but if you imagine an entire fleet of US hydrogen cars, and every single damm valve ever made leaks a little bit, then it doesn't take too many years before you endanger the Ozone layer again, I think.
I read this once in a brief post in response to one of these effusive articles about hydrogen cars and I've been hunting for the scientific experts to tell me it's wrong ever since. Even my Atmospheric physicist colleague hasn't yet found the study needed to set safe limits on hydrogen leakage.
So if anyone here has better information on this problem I'd really like to hear it!
All of those denialists who lie with statistics and parrot the industry propaganda stating that alternative energy production can not meaningfully replace oil/coal/nuclear, intentionally ignore the obvious.
When you shift technology demand to the individual level (in this case, energy production devices), supply will respond with better and cheaper product.
As an example, the computing industry's history is as good as it gets. Although Moore's Law was meant to deal specifically with advances in transistors, alternative energy production that relies on advances in technology can easily share a similar rule (if not a law). When people demand improvement, supply responds. With competition, advances leap and prices plummet.
Agreed, we lack an accurate measurement that Moore's Law has provided for computer advances during the last 40 years, but to assume that the way Big Power skews statistics (based upon an unchanging technology) has any relation to truth... is ludicrous.
Encourage individuals to go grid neutral and allow them to sell excess generation at market rates... watch what happens to demand for new generation and conservation technologies. The result will make the pessimists look like the spokespinners for Big Power that they really are.
~THOMAS MORE~ You misunderstnd me when I say when global warming denyers show up here at C/D they are not worth talking to. That does not mean I believe my opinons are the only valid opinions. For Example Billy__Y 4 and I debate the nuclear energy issue often and in a most friendly manner.
Those who insist global warming is a myth however and that burning coal is not going ot do us in are either paid government shills, or so ignorant they are not worth arguing with. That's my opinion on that subject but I do argue with them anyway.
The amount of Co2 we humans emit into our atmosphere annually by burning fossil fuels is equivelant to 17,000 active volcanos the size of Hawaii's Kilaeau and the ice in the Arctic will be totally gone within twenty years or less because of that excess Co2 in our atmosphere. When that disater finally occurs we will have gone too far to stop the end result. We must stop using coal now or else. Reference? Michael J Benton's book, "When Life nearly Died". Benton is a very highly respected by his peers and a world renouned geologist.
~Physicscitizen~ Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to developing clean energy such as geothermal, tidal etc. For example, there are thousands of places where tidal or wave energy plants can be utilized without harming the enviroment, the ocean's, or marshlands in any way whatsoever. And tides are predicted for hundreds of years in advance.
You have not studied the issue or else you would have not posted the comments you have on the subject. We can have clean enegy without going back to the middle ages, that is a silly comment. And to say we have lots of coal to use is really ignorant, it is the past and present use of coal that's the major problem, secondly is the use of oil for fuels.
There are enough geo-thremal locations in the US to supply all our energy needs for the next 150,000 years, clean energy and no cost for fuel and no harm to the enviroment or the Earth. And we don't have to tear up Yellowstone National Park to use it.
"If sunbeams were weapons of war, we would have had solar energy ages ago" __~ Sir George Porter~
FYI, reactors that use "DU" (actually, uranium that never got the U-238 seperated from the U-235) have been in use for the last 40-some years in Canada. They're called "CANDU" reactors, and they require heavy water (where the hydrogen is the isotope deuterium, found in about 1/200 of all water molecules). Because the coolant is the moderator, they can't explode or melt down, and they can "burn" MOX and plutonium from old nuclear weapons as well.
That being said, they can also release radioactive water (with tritium instead of hydrogen), are horribly prone to cost overruns (don't know enough to compare to other reactors) and the intense neutron bombardment seems to make them wear out faster than normal, even for a nuclear reactor. Not neccesarily my #1 choice, but it does beat fossil fuels, and I'd take the risk of living close to one that's being fueled by a nuclear warhead to letting said warhead sit around to go on the black market (or on a B-52) anyday.
As I understand it, the worst that any reactor can do is screw up limited regions geographically. Global warming has much more potential for a greater disaster.
And on a related note, here's a link to a fungus that is capable of concentrating radioactive materials, even DU oxide - so there is hope that we can clean up our messes - at least physically - IF we ever get the political will.
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19826554.600-uraniumeating-fungi-could-clean-up-battlefields.html
(If you can't read it, go to www.newscientist.com and enter the terms fungus and uranium in their search function. You can get to the original research from their description.)
Craig