Grant July 8th, 2008 12:28 pm
Jan July 8th, 2008 10:40 pm

Which ever one of you wrote that I was a zionist , I take umbrage with that statement. Apparently you missed where I stated I had been a Moslem (for 36 years). For those 36 years I was brainwashed into completely believing that jews were the spawn of rats and apes, 2 of the vilest (non human) animals in the ME. Just because I feel Israel has the right to exist that does NOT make me a zionist. Do I believe the way Israel has treated the Palestinians is right, NO. Do I feel the Palestinians have aspired for nothing less than to the high crown of victimology? YES.

In your post of July 8th, 2008 12:28 pm you state "according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years."
**SO WHAT!** Have you never heard the old saying "politics makes strange bedfellows"? In WW2 the US was in bed with Joe Stalin, does that mean Roosevelt or Truman were communist? In WW2 the grand mufti of Egypt was in bed with Adolph (and raised a moslem division for the Russian front), The grand mufti of Turkey almost had Ismet Inonu the leader of Turkey assassinated because he refused to let the German army move through Turkey and attack southern Russia. Does this mean the grand mufti of Egypt and Turkey were nazis? Allen Colmes may call it flip-flopping but in politics you USE your friends or your enemys. What seems a good move today may not seem that way tomorrow. The US used bin Laden in Afghanistan to defeat the communist Russians and it cost the Russians immensely, good move - bin Laden turned out to be a radical islamist and attacked the US so is your first good move now a bad move? NO, to say it was a bad move is to say the Russians should still occupy Afghanistan. Politics makes strange bedfellows, and you make far, far to much of political intrigue. It is quite obvious you are not nor ever will be a politician.

reply to Grant:
1. President Gamal Abdel Nasser

Was it the same Nasser who called for for a genocide of Israelis in his speech to Arab trade unionists on May 26, 1967 ??? "If Israel embarks on an aggression against Syria or Egypt, the battle against Israel will be a general one and not confined to one spot on the Syrian or Egyptian borders. The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

2. Grant: "Discussing Zionism with a Zionist like Wolf or Letto, is like trying to have a discussion with a drunk…a total waste of time."

Why is it that anyone who have a different view point than you (which happened to be one supported by publicly available data), must be a drunk?
Do you appose pluralism by thinking everyone should have but one opinion, the Grant opinion or else he must be a drunk and not worthy of your time?

I'm a liberal Zionist who I support pluralism and freedom of speech and expression. I guess not everyone is as progressive as I am.

As for Zionism - It is a Jewish national movement that support the right of Jews for self determination, in the Jewish homeland. Just like any other nation.
If you wish to learn more about Zionism, you can start here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I will ask you once more the question that you avoid answering:
Why is it theoretically impossible to be a liberal Zionist and an Israeli supporter, and yet encounter someone who is a racist?

Letto said

"It's very clear case of collective punishment."

Israel is the master of collective punishment.

Discussing Zionism with a Zionist like Wolf or Letto, is like trying to have a discussion with a drunk...a total waste of time.

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8449

"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."

…Begin and his successor, Yitzhak Shamir, launched an effort to undercut the PLO, creating the so-called Village Leagues, composed of local councils of handpicked Palestinians who were willing to collaborate with Israel – and, in return, were put on the Israeli payroll. Sheik Yassin and his followers soon became a force within the Village Leagues. This tactical alliance between Yassin and the Israelis was based on a shared antipathy to the militantly secular and leftist PLO: the Israelis allowed Yassin's group to publish a newspaper and set up an extensive network of charitable organizations, which collected funds not only from the Israelis but also from Arab states opposed to Arafat.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hanania01182003.html

"How the Likud Bloc Mid-wifed the Birth of Hamas"

Hamas is considered one of Israel's greatest threats, but the Islamic terrorist organization found its beginnings in the misguided Israeli effort to encourage the rise of a religious alternative that would undermine the popularity of the Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasir Arafat.

…In 1977, newly elected prime minister and Likud (Herut) founder Menachem Begin decided drastic steps were needed to block Arafat's return.
A year later, seeking to undermine Arafat's popularity in the Occupied Territories, Begin's government approved an application from a 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, to license his humanitarian organization, the Islamic Association. Later, with the explosion of the first Intifada, the Islamic Association launched a military arm called Hamas.

…Yassin was willing to cooperate with the Likud government because he, too, shared the goal of undermining Arafat's secular influence over the Palestinians.

…Israel's Likud government permitted Yassin to launch a newspaper and to set up charitable fundraising organizations. With funding Yassin raised and with Israeli funds directed through the Village Leagues, the Islamic Association built new mosques, new schools, hospitals and medical clinics. The group established social service and humanitarian agencies and even job creation venues. Despite its later turn to armed struggle and suicide bombings, Hamas meticulously directed nearly 95 percent of the funds it raised to these worthy humanitarian projects.

…The "Islamic Association," was a shadow organization and prodigy of the more radical Moslem Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928 by Hasan al-Bana. The group created a Palestinian branch in the 1930s but waged a mainly rhetorical battle against oppression in the Arab World.

http://www.answers.com/topic/al-azhar

President Gamal Abdel Nasser promoted even more change. In 1961, under Shaykh al-Azhar Muhammad Shaltut, a secular campus was added at a different site; it had the various degree programs of a full university, including medicine and other sciences. The following year the government decreed the opening of the first of several al-Azhar colleges for women. In 2002 al-Azhar University had twelve colleges in Cairo, eight in Assiut, and twenty more in other parts of the country, with a total of 185,000 students and 9,000 teachers.

An extensive primary and secondary system of Azhar institutes had meanwhile been built throughout Egypt, with a core program of secular courses, but also including a significant number of courses in the Islamic disciplines. Thus al-Azhar established a viable, comprehensive Muslim alternative to the state education system, which Egypt's ulama tended to view as a secular threat to Islamic society and mores.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/39971/dreyfuss_on_bush_s_deadly_dance_with_islamic_theocrats

In the 1950s, British intelligence and the CIA worked with the Muslim Brothers against Gamal Abdel Nasser, the founder of modern Arab nationalism. Said Ramadan, the son-in-law of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna, who set up the organization's global nerve center in Geneva, Switzerland, was a CIA agent. Twice, in 1954 and in 1965, the Brotherhood tried to assassinate Nasser. From this period to the present, the Brotherhood has received financial support from the ultra-right Saudi establishment.

I just love how you ignore my overall points, pick a sentence or two out then elaborate on that. For instance, the thing you've ignored, Israel's & the West's support (including the US) for Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. You obviously know about these issues, so you're playing dumb when you know there is no factual counter to my points. Was there a fight against the left both by the West, the monarchs in the ME and the Islamists? Yes, it is common knowledge. Arafat and Nasser, especially the latter, were an influence and a threat to all (including the Saudi Royal family at one time from within), for different reasons. Leftist ideas were spreading, the Soviets were (less) active in the region, "Arab Nationalism" & "Arab Socialism" was influencing large numbers of people. If you want more cites, let me know.

Well, I've tried to respond and am getting blocked...is the response too long?

Grant "By the way, does Letto or Wolf have anything to say about the Jewish suicide bombers leading up to the creation of Israel? The assassinations of British officials? The current Kahanist movement in the occupied territories?"

---
I don't like terrorist actions against civilians. Jewish or Arab or anyone else for that matter.

I fully support the Israeli Knesset decision to make the Jewish Kahanist movement illegal and banned them from participating in any election.

I wish the Palestinian authority would have done the same to Hamas, who are not less racists than Khana.

Grant, "By the way, no one who defends the actions of the Israeli state can call someone else a racist"

Why is that? Is it theoretically impossible to be a liberal Zionist and an Israeli supporter, and yet encounter someone who is a resist?

I support some and appose some of Israel's action. I'm not a racist, since I think all people and all nations should have equal rights and no one should be discriminated or punished because he belong to a specific race or ethnic group.

Yet I met some racist people. (and if you want I can give you many examples)

Are you saying that I can't call a racist for what he truly is?

Munich , "In my message I never once mentioned anything about "why Iran wants to see Israel dead," you did. And if there's one thing I loathe, it is people putting words in my mouth."

I never said that you said that Iran wants to see Israel dead. These were Ahmadinejad's words. I asked you a question of my own choosing, based on publicly available data, and I wasn't quoting you.

If you dispute that fact (That Iran's leadership wants to see Israel dead) just watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo
and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

Now, if you care to reply, good, and if you chose to ignore it, that's OK too. Here is my question again:

Did it ever occurred to you that perhaps the main reason Iran call death to Israel and not death to any of my other examples is purely for the fact that Israel is the only non-Muslim country in the Middle East?

Grant July 7th, 2008 5:35 pm

You are totally correct "Christian countries are in no position to lecture others on violence, religion HAS been used to justify the violence" BUT the point I am trying to get across is THE NEW TESTAMENT OF BIBLE DOES NOT CONDONE this violence. The qur'an does condone violence against non-believers.
But here again, this is simply a question of fact. The Bible contains no open-ended, universal command to make war against and subjugate unbelievers, like Qur'an 9:29. Muhammad commanded his followers to wage war against unbelievers who refused to convert to Islam, and to subjugate them as dhimmis (Sahih Muslim 4294). When did Jesus ever say anything like that?
As I have said before christian countries have used the bible to justify many (too many) vile acts against others BUT the bible did not explicitly tell them to do what they did. The barbaric acts of muslim imperialism were the direct result of what the qur'an told them to do.
Look at all the kings and emperors down through history they were concerned with personal profit and also national profit "nationalist", if they were not they were not rulers for very long.
Define modern times, since 1901 when the first oil concessions were granted in (Persia) now Iran, many posters here state we have stoled the arabs oil yet if you look at their bank accounts the ME has been the recipient of the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind.
About slavery, did you know mohammed was a slaver, he owned slaves, he bought and sold slaves, usually when he defeated an enemy he had all the males past puberty slaughtered and gave the women and children to his followers as slaves. How many slaves did christ own?
A leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country's religious curriculum states Islam advocates slavery. "Slavery is a part of Islam," says Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, according to the independent Saudi Information Agency, or SIA. In a lecture recorded on tape by SIA, the sheik said, "Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." His religious books are used to teach 5 million Saudi students, both within the country and abroad, including the United States.
Google islamic slave trade and learn some history, while the European involvement in the Trans Atlantic slave trade to the Americas lasted for just over three centuries, the arab involvement in the slave trade has lasted fourteen centuries, and in some parts of the muslim world is still continuing to this day.

"The left and the secular elements were much more popular in the past in the ME."

When? The Ottoman empire which was FAR from secular ruled most of the ME until the end of WW1. Between WW1 and WW2 the Europeans introduced secularism when they took over from the Ottomans until the end of WW2 when the ME got it's independence from the Europeans. Except for Turkey there is very little secularism in the ME, the governments may look secular but underneath it's the religious establishment that calls the tune and they are far from secular.

I in no way defended Israelis actions (go back and read my posts) except for for Israelis right to defend its self. I don't justify anything using MY religious book I am an agnostic and have NO religious book. I was a moslem so I know about Islam and I read and comprehend other religious books very well.

Grant July 7th, 2008 6:10 pm

"Do you think Islam is going to disappear?"

No, unfortunately. Secularism and democracy (as the west knows it) are incompatible with islam. Islam is ruled by sharia law the law of allah, democracy is the law of man, man cannot make a law that goes against the law of allah thus no democracy. Few Muslim natons are real democracies. In the Arab heartland, the count is zero. An exceptionally high proportion of Muslim nations, the highest proportion of any major bloc of countries, are politically pathological, having failed to acheive an internal stability that rest on anything other than brute force. They are also prone to external aggression, directly or by proxy, much of it serving no discernable interest.

"National Solidarity Program" in Afghanistan, is exceptional, westerners show the locals what and how to get things done and they do it. Unfortunately all it will take is one fanatical imam with a qur'an to destroy it.
It is haram for females to go to school, it is haram to watch Bollywood soaps, it is haram for women to work, it is haram to enjoy life on earth you can only submit to the will of allah. That's islam.

Simple questions, on top of what I asked above: Do you think Islam is going to disappear? Do you think that Islamist groups can be defeated by forcing (by Christian dominated countries who've done nothing but steal from ME countries, especially in recent years) them out of government, after a short time an alternate and more secular society can develop?

I see no way you can argue the first question, it isn't realistic. The second is no better, you're basically saying that the situation in the region (created not entirely but in large part by the West) can be corrected by the groups who've done nothing but kill and pillage, who've supported violence by Western corporations and the Jewish state against the region.

I see, logically (which has little to do with your preferred policies) no way the status quo of violence will work. Logically it's ridiculous to propose.

THIS is one way to go:
The "National Solidarity Program" in Afghanistan, a community based, participatory developmental program (which the Bush administration wants to CUT funding to, because of ideological reasons)

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTABOUTUS/IDA/0,,contentMDK:21296643~menuPK:3266877~pagePK:5...

- The National Solidarity Program (NSP) is a massive effort by the government to reach rural communities across Afghanistan and address their needs using a participatory approach.
- Implemented by the Ministry of Rural Rehabilitation and Development through an extensive network of NGOs, the NSP was originally a component of the IDA-financed Emergency Community Empowerment & Public Works Project launched in 2002. It then became a national priority program under Afghanistan's development framework and has grown into the government's flagship rural development program.
- Elected village-level Community Development Councils (CDCs), in which women play a key role, reach consensus on development priorities, develop investment proposals and use grants and local labor to meet their needs.

Highlights:
- As of January 2007, more than 15,000 CDCs had been elected and 11,000 of them had received block grants for over 20,000 community projects, nearly 9,000 of them complete now.
- New roads and bridges now link villages that were isolated; irrigation is boosting agriculture, energy from renewable resources such as hydro and solar power now reaches villages for the first time in history, village water pumps save women hours of labor a day, and new schools now allow thousands of children to receive basic education.
- The economic analysis of a sample of NSP subprojects showed economic rates of return (ERR) between 26.3 to 60.8 percent.
- Investments in rural infrastructure have in turn benefited agriculture, small enterprise development, and provided new opportunities for access to price information, education, health care and communications.
- More than 80 percent of labor for these efforts is provided by the communities themselves generating wages for the poor and keeping costs low. Investment through the NSP costs on average a third less than hiring a commercial contractor. Community involvement also creates stronger incentives to provide appropriate maintenance.
- Social mobilization has increased trust in government, empowered the people including women, strengthened democratic culture at the community level and improved social cohesion and conflict resolution.
- CDCs, now recognized by law, are helping the government coordinate its programs in different sectors such as education, health, agriculture.

Here's an article on the NSP:

"The Schools the Taliban Won't Torch"

"One ingenious aid program is stabilizing the toughest parts of Afghanistan. The U.S. is cutting its funding."

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2007/0712.warner.html

"…According to the RAND Corporation, the American-led nation-building effort in Afghanistan is the least-financed such effort in sixty years. For the first three years after the Taliban fell, the consensus opinion among American and NATO commanders, and the international community at large, was to strive for a "light footprint" in Afghanistan."

"Washington's failure to support the NSP is also emblematic of its top-down approach to Afghanistan's reconstruction in general. Since 2002, the United States has given just 6.3 percent of its aid money through the Afghan government. Meanwhile, most of the international community is moving in the opposite direction… The next year, most major donors' annual pledges to this fund rose significantly: Canada's contribution jumped from $59 million in 2006 to $121 million in 2007; Germany's went from $20 million to $67 million. The contribution from the United Kingdom, already a firm supporter of the program, rose from $128 million to $131 million. However, the annual U.S. contribution to the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund fell, going from $74 million in 2006 to $50 million in 2007."

You're being intentionally dense. The point is that Christian countries are in no position to lecture others on violence, religion HAS been used to justify the violence (Leopold was just one example, YOU claim he was doing it not as a Christian but as a "nationalist", a monarch not concerned with personal profit but a "nationalist", which couldn't equally apply to groups like Hamas now could it?), who the hell would even bother arguing otherwise (or diverting the argument like you attempted). Are you going to try and argue that in modern times that Islamist imperialism, or any other kind, even comes close to comparing to the European and Christian centered violence? Give me a damn break. I just read a book about Belgium conquering of the former Congo, countless Christians talking about "modernizing the savages", or bringing "civilization" to them, justifying their murder because they weren't believers and were going to hell anyway. This wasn't in some reactionary right wing basement group, it was arguments being made within European governments and they had a wide backing. Whole branches of scientific inquiry were used to justify this, showing the superiority of European civilization, with Christianity being a large part of that. It isn't anything new either, I'm sure you've heard of Las Casas' diaries in which he documented the brutal murder and theft of Columbus' forces and there after by the Spanish Empire, entire islands (hell continents) depopulated, millions killed (many times by newly introduced microbes, many times by violence). Before the Christian Spaniards would kill their victims they would give them one last chance to accept Jesus as their savior, which was nice of them. How many Christians, quoting the bible, justified slavery (which was accepted AND condemned in the Old and New Testaments)?

How about the economic imperialism by Europe, Israel and the other developed countries? Please tell me how either this jives with their religious beliefs, how this happens in spite of them or how they simply ignore and cite their religious superstitions if it suites them?

You want to justify continuing this violence and domination, and you're using the violent passages of the Qur'an to justify it. The Islamic groups have spread like they have thanks to ISRAELI (which you have ignored), US, British and Saudi (amongst others) help. These groups were used to fight the left and, since '79, Iran. The left and the secular elements were much more popular in the past in the ME. They were responsible for the delivery social services and building up communities and there were an economic threat to entrenched interest (capitalist and monarchs), so the Islamists were used. Now, when there is no alternate structure to take the Islamists place (who now are there to deliver many of the social seriveces), and the same economic interests would stop any independent economic development or true democracy, with the underlying causes of the poverty still being the same and present, you want to attack the countries harboring them because of the monster you largely created, which will and always has made the problem worse.

I could give two craps about whether or not you justify this while using your religious book, there is no defense for what you're calling for and this violence has yet to work. Stop defending what you can't with Israel by always diverting the conversation, take responsibly for the popularity of the Islamist groups and come up with some ideas other than violence and continued economic domination. If you can't provide alternate logic, appeal to people's minds and allow economic development outside of the rule of investors and colluding ME elites you're doing nothing more than calling for endless war, just like people like you have for hundreds of years. You'd, well not you someone else, rather kill than really change. Yourself or your government(s).

Wolf: "How's your sister? you bigoted joke."

How's your mother, fuckface?

MikeBinSC July 7th, 2008 2:28 am

I don't have a clue what a female muslim suicide bomber would get, the qur'an does not say. I would have to guess the local imam promised her something but what I don't know.

Please get your facts straight, the bible was written by men divinely inspired (so they say). The qur'an is the exact word of allah delivered by the archangel Gabriel to mohammed (what moslems believe). To the believers of each religion this means a great deal. You can to a certain extent interpret the bible (baptists, catholics, protestants etc all have variants of interpretation) - the qur'an says what it says because it is the unquestionable word of allah, to question it is to blaspheme it and the penalty for that is death.

Some historians and egyptologists believe Yahweh (the god of the jews) could have modeled some what after the egyptian god Ra, but the jews believe in only one god and the Egyptians at least a dozen or more so this idea is purely speculation with no firm evidences to it's truth.

Due to the fact that virtually everyone was commenting on the jews in Israel those are the ons who along with the country of Israel would be ancient history, sorry if I was not specific enough the first time.

"Don't you think that if all Muslims who follow the Qur'an in America (millions of them) believed what you are saying, there would have been a lot of suicide attacks here in the last six years?"
NO, READ the qur'an and see what it says about moslems living among non-believers, the moslems in Europe believe in the same qur'an as the moslems in America, there have been bombings and riots all over Europe. The reason is percentages of the population, READ the qur'an.

AndyUK July 7th, 2008 4:03 am

Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions imposed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community. They are there for propaganda purposes only.
"The Executive Committee of the World Council of Churches, meeting in Etchmiadzin, Armenia, 25-28 September, 2007, is deeply troubled by their suffering and calls urgently for solutions. Amid the many suffering communities there, we note that the fate of Iran's Christian communities gives churches around the world particular cause for concern and reason to respond."

As far as your statement on the UN I agree with you 110%. If we got out of the UN and shipped them to Caracas, Venezuela I would bet they would be much happier than being in NYC.

forextrader July 7th, 2008 9:56 am

How's your sister? you bigoted joke.

Grant July 7th, 2008 1:36 pm

"King Leopold wrote a letter to Christian missionaries in the former Congo... he gave them the bible phrases to use... "

King Leopold was a nationalist, taking bible phrases out of context to further national interests had been going on for centuries. BUT nowhere in the bible does christ say, go forth and convert the unbelievers of the world to christendom and if they refuse kill them. Allah does say that (sura 9:5). As far as your ragging on Christian Europe for it's economic imperialism etc. just how do you think the ME and North Africa became moslem? Did they all wake up one morning and say "I think I'll become a moslem today"? NO moslem imperialism, which if you bothered to read history is responsible for more death and destruction than any other religion or nationalistic movement.

http://www.travelbrochuregraphics.com/extra/relentlessly_and_throughly.htm

"Islam is an imperialist religion, more so than Christianity has ever been, and in contrast to Judaism. The Koran, Sura 5, verse 85, describes the inevitable enmity between Moslems and non-Moslems: "Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans." Sura 9, verse 5, adds: "Then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them. And seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them, in every strategem [of war]." Then nations, however mighty, the Koran insists, must be fought "until they embrace Islam."

http://cassandra2004.blogspot.com/2006/07/7-11-bombings-mumbai-matunga-courtesy.html

Kutb-d Din Aibak, was a normal specimen of his kind - fanatical, ferocious and merciless. His gifts, as the Mohammedan historian tells us, "were bestowed by hundreds of thousands, and his slaughters likewise were by hundreds of thousands."

The number of Hindus slaughtered in the Islamic conquest of India vary by who's account you read, both moslems and Hindus tend to inflate the numbers but it is generally agreed upon by most historians that between 45 and 60 MILLION Hindus were slaughtered, not by bullets and bombs but with the sword.

Grant July 7th, 2008 1:53 pm

I abhor any and all suicide bombers, be they moslem or jewish, unfortunately for your statement the VAST majority of suicide bombers are moslem. When was the last time a jew got on a bus in gaza or the west bank and blew him/herself up killing dozens of palestinians?

"destruction of the mosques on Temple Mount"

There are two Mosques on the temple mount the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Bayt al Maqdas and no one is directly trying to destroy either one. You are probably referring to the archeological digs by the Palestinians trying to prove (despite the historical Assyrian and Roman writings to the contrary) that there never was a jewish temple on the site and the jews stupid digging to prove the Palestinians wrong which both are undermining the mount.

We could go back and forth pointing fingers at what the jews did or what the moslems did for years, what it comes down to in the end the hadiths and the qur'an call on moslems to kill the jews, the torah does not call on jews to kill moslems and the irrational religions of both will keep them fighting for decades to come, unless Iran gets the bomb and decides to toss it at Israel then this stupidity will be over in a flash.

If Hamas and the other groups listed are fascist (you won't get tons of an argument from me), what do you have to say about Israel's crucial support in the past for these very groups? What do you have to say about Israel's human rights record, the morally devoid but legally cute justification for the actions (how about the overtly racist and reactionary comments, goals and actions of even the formerly "socialist" Israeli Zionists of the past).

To me, this is about objectivity. You can point to Hamas' actions, outside of Israel's continued support in the past, and rightfully point out fascist tendencies but then, because of your bias, not use the SAME standards on the state of Israel, the reactionary views of its leaders and the morally indefensible means they use. If you want to be biased personally, go ahead, the same rights are afforded to you that are the Holocaust deniers, create your own reality if you want as long as you don't harm anyone else. It's another thing to defend US taxpayer funds towards these actions and another to pretend that Israel doesn't deserve to be in the same vein as these Islamic reactionary groups, not because of anti-Jew irrationality, because Israel has consistently acted immorally, has been extremely violent and authoritarian and (like Hamas) deserves to be condemned for the same standards you try to apply to others. They're also, because of the Israeli lobby, taking us all down with them. If they attack Iran with US weapons, fighter jets, trained personnel or economic assistance we might as well attack them ourselves as far as the ME is concerned, and that's exactly what might happen.

Ulpian- "how Judaism works?"
Are you a scholar of religion, or just Judaism? Incorporating the Roman invasion of 43 would be a challenge for the Church of England, as at that time they were more likely Celtic pagans in that area, and the Church of England wouldn't be around for another 500 years or so… But I guess you just want to "imagine" what it would have been like.

Judaism on the other hand has been around since that time- in fact as you note since at least a 1000 years before then. Does that bother you, for some reason?

You clearly aren't a history buff either, as the term antisemitism has referred solely to actions against Jews since it was coined. But I guess you're covered as you said what it means to you -not its common usage. This usage of the term antisemitism in the way you describe is only commonly used by antisemites and white supremacists. Is that pleasant company?

It sounds like you are a little bummed about the collapse of the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires. Any other axis powers you feel a -little- sympathy towards?

Empires never used primitive, nationalist, chauvinistic beliefs to inspire mob mentality? They ruled their empires with "common sense and empirical reason?" Your hatred of religion sounds personal- do you have a personal experience that would put some flesh on the bone, so to speak? Do you think godless empires fair better? Any examples?

So your last comment -only- tries to diminish the significance of the Holocaust. At least you're not trying to deny it, which I suppose is better than some posters. Are you happy about the defeat of fascism? Do you see fascist tendencies in Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. that you also find distasteful?

That's Zionism for you- asking the hard questions.

That's Zionism for you.

There was a time in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s when the second world war was believed to be a battle between expansionist fascism and democracy. The perpetual Zionist propaganda after the discovery of the death camps has left a younger generation believing the second world was was fought mainly to prevent the mass murder of the Jews and punish the perpetrators.

All we ever seem to get now from Israel and its lobbyists is a poor-us whine about how terribly the Jews suffered in the war: and this is supposed to excuse everything they have done since. The holocaust has now been built into the Jewish religion, as have the Egyptian captivity, the subsequent flight and the Babylonian captivity too.

Imagine if the Roman invasion of 43 and the Norman one 1066 were incorporated into the liturgy of the Church of England and you'll have some idea of how Judaism works.

By the way, does Letto or Wolf have anything to say about the Jewish suicide bombers leading up to the creation of Israel? The assassinations of British officials? The current Kahanist movement in the occupied territories? Their calls for the ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories (with support far beyond their numbers within Israel) and the destruction of the mosques on Temple Mount? Their attempt at bombing a school for little children, averted at the last second? Their countless killings, and calls for more, of non-Jewish inhabitants of what they hope will become Israel?

"Also - Iran is financing organization dedicated to destroy Israel such as the Hizballah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad."

Tell us, did Israel ever support any of these groups in the past? I wonder, I'm sure YOU know, you just won't bother mentioning it. By the way, no one who defends the actions of the Israeli state can call someone else a racist, it's so hypocritical (especially given the comments, objectives and actions of the country's most revered leaders against the inhabitants of what is Israel and would be Palestine. If you want some examples let me know, there are plenty of quotes which, again, I'm sure you're aware of) its mind boggling you'd try.

If we want historically ignorant and non-objective pro-Israeli coverage we can just turn on the TV and pick up a paper. Can we have a conversation not dominated by the defenders of the 51st state, Israel, just once without people like yourself interrupting?

Wolf,

King Leopold wrote a letter to Christian missionaries in the former Congo about how to brain wash people into accepting their poverty (thanks to Leopold's violence and greed) and to submit, he gave them the bible phrases to use, giving advice on how to "further their interests". At least 10 million people died thanks to him. The largest massacre of Jews happened in Christian Europe. Europe has had a centuries long history of violence and murder (colonialism as well as military and especially recently economic imperialism), thanks to materialistic greed, while clutching their piece of shit bibles. Millions of Christians in Europe killed each other over their different versions of their fairy tale nonsense. Have any idea how many crimes call for stoning to death in the Old Testament?

Every religion is by its nature irrational and every one has been used for violence, and no religion has used violence more than Christian countries in recent years. I'm sorry but people in European centered Christian countries talk all the damn time about the violence of the Qur'an while their countries commit the most irrational and immoral violence around the world and force greedy and immoral economic polices on poorer and weaker countries. Their government force economic polices on poor countries that cause poverty, starvation, ecological destruction and social disintegration. Take you nonsense elsewhere to people who aren't bothered by logic or objectivity.

Letto:

In my message I never once mentioned anything about "why Iran wants to see Israel dead," you did. And if there's one thing I loathe, it is people putting words in my mouth.

By the way, You've also taken the quote out of context.

This is the last I'll respond to any of your inane rants.

Perhaps a bit of clarification: Both Jews and Arabs are semitic peoples. So to be anti-semitic suggests, to me, hating the lot of them.

We too easily conflate religion with race.
I think what we are seeing here is the use of damned religion as a shield to hide all manner of personal resentments; be they sexual, personal, territorial, economic or anything else people 'feel' - and use damned religion to justify.

Zionism and western nationalism gave rise to the nation state of Israel and the western dismantling of the old European empires. This dismantling occurred from within as much as from without - the Young Turks for example adopted a palpably nationalistic philosophy, just like their west European contemporaries, and encouraged the dissolution of the old Ottoman millet (nationality) system, with unhappy results. The collapse of the Ottoman empire concentrated the partitions, which were carried out along religious lines with results that echo down to the present. Ditto the end of the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires - only now seemingly moving towards a possible conclusion?

National divisions are never fixed for ever, but instead of nationalism we now seem to be expected to accept divisions based on an irreconsilable and ignorant synthesis of nationality, race and belief - all fanned by the ranting of zealots who have little breadth of education or understanding, but a very strong and primitive faith system which apparently appeals to the mob and is easily exploited by the military and property owning classes.

As with nationalism over a century ago this crypto-racist/relionist and very ignorant philosophy has been integrated into the political theories of both west and east, with unhappy consequences and likely worse outcomes.

All priests, of whatever faith, are ultimately pretty silly, given that they believe in anything and everything except common sense and empirical reason, but unfortunately they are also dangerous as simple people seek them out in times of trouble, and unscrupulous politicians use them to their own ends. I dislike the lot of them.

Wolf when you talk about Muslims the way you talk about them, you are the real bigot. For Letto: nice try putting words in my mouth. I think President Achmedinejad is being too kind on wanting to relocate "Israel" to Europe. Antarctica would be better. Oh BTW Wolf I see you have a link for "newsmax". You have just blown your cover. You are nothing but a two bit Zionist neocon. Do you watch Fox News as well?

Does Iran want to destroy all Jews or Christians, or unbelievers? Well, if you listen to the "popular" media and are taken in by the deliberate misquotations and propaganda, then you may think that is the case. Here is the truth:
Iran has a thriving community of both Jews (20000 - 30000( who have their own synagogues and a member of the Iranian Parliament. This is the oldest community of Jews in the Middle East, and they could not be tempted to return to the State of Israel, despite large relocation packages. There is a huge Armenian Christian community in Iran, who have their own churches, and are allowed to sell wine and pork in various shops in Shiraz, Isfahan and other places. Again, they suffer no restrictions or constant suppression.
Again, as other people have said, Iran is not a warlike country, and does not have the ultimate technological advantages of an Israel or US, but as Braithwa842 points out, Israel would want to attack Iran, before it has the capability of defending itself, with a new Russian anti missile system.
I am not a self loather, or American hater, as some would point out, but I am capable of seeing, that the US, and Israel, with the complicit agreement of some other countries (UK, Australia,France), are responsible for millions of deaths, and wholesale destruction in the Middle East.
I totally agree with Old Jeffersonian, that the UN has to be dismantled and rebuilt from the bottom up, in order to remove the imbalance of power, from countries who would use it as a toll for empire building.

Thad Stone "You mean Ahmadinejad quoting Khomeini saying that "The regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" ??? "

No, I meant this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo

---
Thad Stone "You mean some people in Lebanon bought some missiles made in Iran"

No, I mean actually Iranian revolutionary guard units.

---

Thad Stone "Oh boo hoo. How much do they get, $millions"

Not Millions, but Billions.

---

Thad Stone "Like Dimona ?"

They could chose lower grade uranium reactors such as the Candu
---

MikeBinSC July 7th, 2008 1:41 am
Letto - "true, yet Israel also have a right to exists, and it will take steps to ensure its survival against those who seek to destroy it."

This is the same lame excuse Bush used to invade Iraq and cause the Holocaust that is occuring there as we speak!

---

Maybe, Maybe not. I don't have enough information.

Wolf, the Jews would not be ancient history, as they are alive and well, protected and respected in countries all over the globe, just as are those who practice other religions.

All religions harbor extremists, the Jews and Christians are no different. Don't you think that if all Muslims who follow the Qur'an in America (millions of them) believed what you are saying, there would have been a lot of suicide attacks here in the last six years?

Wolf, what do the female Muslim suicide bombers, of which there have been many, get as their reward?

Neither the Bible nor the Qur'an were written by God, they were written by men, about the same God, adjusted to their own customs, beliefs and power structures of the time, all of it based on ancient Egyptian writings and myths.

Good comment Thad. I started to answer those 7 charges individually as well, but your comment was great.

MikeBinSC July 7th, 2008 1:02 am

"Wolf123, I don't believe that you are spouting all this religious mumbo-jumbo here on CD."

I really hate to break this news to you, it's NOT religious mumbo-jumbo if you BELIEVE in it and Ahmadinejad DOES - you don't (and I don't) and that makes it mumbo-jumbo to us.

"The Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship and pray to the same God,'

NO they don't, that is a propaganda myth put out by moslems. Read the bible and the qur'an, the god of the jews in old testament could be a loving god and a violent god, BUT I defy you to find a verse in the old testament that commanded the jews to convert the wold to Judaism. The god of the new testament is a loving god (be bad all your life and truly repent on your death bed and the god of the christians will forgive you). The god of the moslems tells them (in sura 9:5 the last sura allah gave mohammed) to convert the world to islam and those who refuse kill them. I would not call that the same god.
Another moslem myth that defies believability, mohammed on several occasions (recorded in the hadiths) claims abraham , moses and jesus were all moslems BUT islam was not around until about 600 AD, when mohammed started it. SO how can some one who was born and died centuries before islam was invented be a moslem?

I prefer Marx, "Religion is the opiate of the people".

MikeBinSC July 7th, 2008 12:42 am

You can not have a nuclear armed ME, MAD will not work here. The invisible god of the moslems specifically TOLD them to kill ALL the jews (read the qur'an). Why do you think the moslems of the ME state that jews are the spawn of apes and rats? 2 of the vilest creatures in the ME. If you gave all the arabs a nuclear bomb, before you got on your plane to fly home they would be tossing them at Israel. Would the arabs care if the jews tossed a few at them? HELL no, those that got vaporized by the jews would be martyrs and would be fornicating with their 72 virgins for all eternity. The jews would be ancient history.

Letto July 7th, 2008 12:45 am

I am glad there is someone else here that can read and process information and not believe in propaganda myths and conspiracy theories.

Letto July 7th, 2008 12:45 am

1. Iran's leaders had called for Israel's death on many occasion.

You mean Ahmadinejad quoting Khomeini saying that "The regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" ??? This, says Cole, "does not imply military action or killing anyone at all". Ahmadinejad compared the demise of the Jerusalem regime to the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
http://pilger.carlton.com/page.asp?partid=426

2. Iran had attacked Israel in the past (Iranian Revolutionary guard missile units in 2006)

You mean some people in Lebanon bought some missiles made in Iran ? By that reasoning, General Dynamics Lockheed Martin is attacking Palestinians in the West Bank...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13875121/

3. Iran is financing and training organization who are committed to the destruction of Israel. (Hizballah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Oh boo hoo. How much do they get, $millions ? And Israel gets $billions from the US to finance and train Muslim killers that wanted to destroy Iraq (check) and Iran (soon).

4. Iran's president has the mentality of a suicide bomber. He believe he'll go to heaven if he dies in a holy war.

Where does Bush believe he will go, hell ? How about Olmert after he dies in a retaliation attack ?

5. Iran, one of the Richest Oil and Solar country on the planet, suddenly descide thy need nuclear energy to meet their energy needs.

Heard about Peak Oil Jimmy ? Iran has already peaked, and they want to *export* more oil and gas. Turns out the prices are very high since Israel keeps beating the drums of war.
Oh, and the Shah ? He had the same plans in the 1970's, to build nuclear power plants so he could export more oil and gas. Cheney and Rumsfeld thought it was a great idea, back then. So did GE, which sold him a few...

6. From all the reactor type available on the market, they chose the one easiest to convert to nuclear weapons.

Like Dimona ?

7. They chose to enrich the Uranium themselves, again, a process which will make conversion to nukes easy.

Like Dimona ?
Gee, it would be much better for *Israel* if Iran could only get low-enriched uranium from the U.S. - then you would have Iran by the balls, the U.S. could withhold power at any time for any flimsy excuse (whoah, didn't you get that last shipment ? let me look in the warehouse again..)

I'm sure *Israel* would agree to some international consortium controlling its domestic electricity production.

8. "It will be safe to say that in Israeli eyes, Iranian current regime is an existential threat to Israel."

Yes, and 'Son of Sam' thought God told him to kill all those women or else he would die...

You realize Israel will become the gay elephant-man bad-smelling atheist leper of International society after they attack...

Letto - "true, yet Israel also have a right to exists, and it will take steps to ensure its survival against those who seek to destroy it."

This is the same lame excuse Bush used to invade Iraq and cause the Holocaust that is occuring there as we speak!

MikeBinSC "Israel does not have the right to dictate to any other country, what they can and can not do."

true, yet Israel also have a right to exists, and it will take steps to ensure its survival against those who seek to destroy it. I only hope that diplomatic steps will be sufficient.

MikeBinSC " Israel is a religious state. If they are in fact God's chosen people, then they have nothing to worry about in any event, no?"

Most Israelis, including the Prime Minister, are seculars. Actually the USA is more religious than Israel. (Higher percentage of the American people believe in God)

forextrader July 6th, 2008 2:34 pm

Viva Iran!!!
---

Supplement:
Death to Israel
Death to gays
Death to married Woman who see other man.

Jan, "No matter how Letto feels about it personally, many if not most Jews and Americans get offended if you compare the genocide of the American Indian tribes with the Jewish Holocaust."

Not true. I'm a Jew, and My feeling aren't hurt, and I never said they were, when you mention other holocaust such as what the Spanish did in Mexico (20 million dead) what the Turkish did in Armenia (1.5 Million dead) and what is most probably the biggest holocaust of them all - the Muslim occupation of India (80 million dead)

Letto, your arguments are one-sided. Israel does not have the right to dictate to any other country, what they can and can not do. Israel is a religious state. If they are in fact God's chosen people, then they have nothing to worry about in any event, no? God will take care of them when the US pulls the plug on their military support.

Munich, I don't buy your story that the USA is the single reason for creating chaos in the Middle East.

The Middle East was in chaos and constant wars since the beginning of History. And the reason for the chaos are somewhat more complicated than you simplistic view.

As for why Iran wants to see Israel dead, and all it Jewish people either dead or ethnically cleansed to Germany /Austria or Canada / Alaska is also more complicated than you simplistic view point of Russia taking over Canada.

Let me ask you a question:
Suppose Morocco invade and occupied Spanish Sahara. Or Syria invade and occupied 90% of Lebanon, or say China take over Tibet. Or Iran taking control over Arabs in Bushehr and Khuzestan, and over Kurds in Iranian kordistan or perhaps Turkey occupied Kurdistan?

If some day, the above cases would have been true...
- Do you Munich think Iran will call "Death to Morocco, Syria, China, Turkey and Iran?"
- Do you Munich presume Iran will suggest to ethnically cleansed the people of Morocco, Syria, China, Turkey and Iran?
- Can you imagine Iran finance organization to fire ten of thousands of missiles and carry hundreds of suicide bombing against civilians in Morocco, Syria, China, Turkey and Iran?

And my last question.
Did it ever occurred to you that perhaps the main reason Iran call death to Israel and not death to any of my other examples is purely for the fact that Israel is the only non-Muslim country in the Middle East?

Wolf123, I don't believe that you are spouting all this religious mumbo-jumbo here on CD. Look, we have enough Christo-Fascists here in the US(many of them running our government) who would like nothing better than to bring about our own version end-time prophesy!

Get a grip here Wolf, God isn't pulling the strings here, evil men are, and we need to reign them in. The Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship and pray to the same God, the God of Abraham in the Old Testament. Muslims and Jews actually have a lot more in common, as neither of them believe that Christ is the son of God - Only the Christians believe this.

Religion itself is the cause of many of the worlds problems. It causes people to stop thinking for themselves and controlling their own destiny, and allow others armed with powerful myths to do it for them.

I find myself more and more in agreement these days with the quote that Voltaire attributed to an atheist French priest that says - Man will never be truly free until the last priest is strangled with the entrails of the last king.

dcb July 6th, 2008 1:49 pm
"Israel's primary concern right now is not that Iran is an existenital threat,"

1. Iran's leaders had called for Israel's death on many occasion.
2. Iran had attacked Israel in the past (Iranian Revolutionary guard missile units in 2006)
3. Iran is financing and training organization who are committed to the destruction of Israel. (Hizballah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
4. Iran's president has the mentality of a suicide bomber. He believe he'll go to heaven if he dies in a holy war.
5. Iran, one of the Richest Oil and Solar country on the planet, suddenly descide thy need nuclear energy to meet their energy needs.
6. From all the reactor type available on the market, they chose the one easiest to convert to nuclear weapons.
7. They chose to enrich the Uranium themselves, again, a process which will make conversion to nukes easy.

It will be safe to say that in Israeli eyes, Iranian current regime is an existential threat to Israel.

The ME should either be nuclear-free(this includes Israel) or they should all be allowed to have nuclear weapons. I think we would see a lot more diplomats talking and a lot less attacks and invasions if all the ME countries had nuclear weapons.

They would soon find themselves in the same situation that America, Russia and China have had since the fifties. We shouldn't have to wait 5 or 10 years for this to happen naturally, as it surely will, as it has in India, Pakistan and North Korea. Russia or China should just sell them the weapons for a few billion petro-dollars each.

Israel, currently with hundreds of nuclear weapons targeting every major city in the ME, would quickly realize that they could no longer bully their neighbors, and would soon reach a diplomatic settlement with them, on the basis of MAD(mutually assured destruction).

When those settlements are reached, maybe then we can move to eliminate all nuclear weapons with on-site inspection and verification of compliance in every country, including the United States and Israel.

I know, I know it's all the zionist jewoos fault that Ahmadinejad is fixated with the 12th imam. If it was not for the jewoos Ahmadinejad would be a peaceful rug merchant.

I see none of you googled, Ahmadinejad and the Shiite twelvers to see what kind of religious fanatic Ahmadinejad is, but that's ok lets blame ALL the worlds problems on the jewoos, thats what the world has been doing since the Romans kicked virtually all of them out of Israel.

The US and Russia shared a joint doctrine called MAD during the cold war and it kept the 2 nations from tossing nuclear bombs at one another. The problem with Iran and Israel is the president of Iran is mad and all of us are going to suffer for it, and you morons are to blind to see.

The answer to a recurrent question concerning the provocative comments of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran, which seemed designed to produce chaos, may well be that it is exactly his goal. As a twelver Shiite there is substantial reason to believe that Ahmadinejad is committed to this belief system which asserts that a period of chaos will proceed judgment day which in turn will lead to an era of eternal peace (when sharia law will rule the world). Twelver activists believe that by carrying out acts of religious belligerents they can hasten the arrival of the hidden Mahdi (the 12th imam).

There was once a town in Iraq called Babel. The name means "Gate of God" (Bab-El), and among Jews and Christians elicits all sorts of images of human arrogance and unholy ambition. Men strove to reach up to heaven, perhaps to be as God, and were swiftly scattered in chaos and confusion to the corners of the earth.
The word "Bab" is an old semitic word for "door", "gate", or entrance" that is commonly seen in Arabic place names. Twelver Shi'a Islam has used this term to represent the divine messengers who in past times facilitated communications between the Mahdi (the 12th Imam) and the believers.

164 years ago, Sayyid 'Ali-Muhammad Shirazi claimed to be the latest Bab, then claimed to be the Mahdi as well. His embattled crusade eventually evolved into the religion whose adherents (Baha'is), along with homosexuals, are chief targets of persecution in Modern Iran.

Many people in Iran, many Muslims, many Shi'ites around the world take that as an abstract idea, that justice will prevail in this world; so there's no literal belief that somebody is going to come tomorrow - But there are those, such as Ahmadinejad, that take the Mahdi prophecy quite literally. That doesn't mean that everyone that shares that belief are allies. To the contrary, it puts them in direct opposition if they should happen to disagree on the specific details of the Mahdi prophecy. It seems to follow that those in opposition to the dominant representative of the Mahdi — those Shi'ites who claim to have their own Bab, may be in mortal danger. Hopefully, the Baha'is of Iran will be spared the full wrath of Ahmadinejad's millenarian zeal. They are already suffering through yet another surge of persecution.
How far will it go? It's hard to know just how sincere Ahmadinejad is in his fanaticism. Sincerity, in this case, could be a very dangerous thing.

Those who fear an Armageddon-first fanatic clearly have reason for alarm. After delivering a speech at the United Nations last fall, an address full of references to the Mahdi's return, the Islamic republic's newly elected president claimed to have become surrounded by a mysterious "green light" that held all of his listeners in rapt, unblinking thrall. Weird as that was, Ahmadinejad's frequent assertions of national grandeur soar toward the delusional, as when he declared that Iran's "enemies should know that they are unable to even slightly hurt our nation."
Princeton historian and Middle East specialist Bernard Lewis makes it clear where the president's religiously inspired end-times thinking might lead: "Ahmadinejad and his circle are in an apocalyptic mood," Lewis says. "The use of a nuclear weapon wouldn't bother them in the least."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/8/154740.shtml

"The ultimate promise of all Divine religions," says Ahmadinejad, "will be fulfilled with the emergence of a perfect human being [the 12th Imam], who is heir to all prophets. He will lead the world to justice and absolute peace. Oh mighty Lord, I pray to you to hasten the emergence of your last repository, the promised one." He reckons that the return of the Imam, AWOL for 11 centuries, is only two years away.

("If Iran wants to turn to the production of nuclear weapons, it must leave the NPT, expel the IAEA inspectors, and then it would need at least, considering the number of centrifuges and the quantity of uranium Iran has…It would need at least six months to one year," ElBaradei said.") Hum, a religious fanatic (who doesn't care if he or his country die), has a few nuclear bombs and only 2 years till the Mahdi crawls out of the well). I would bet a nuclear winter trumps global warming any day.

Mr. Ahmadinejad is close to the messianic Hojjatieh Society, which is governed by the conviction that the 12th Imam's return will be hastened by "the creation of chaos on Earth." He has fired Iran's most experienced diplomats and scores of other officials, presumably those who don't share his belief in apocalyptic conflagration.

I believe in it and believe Iran WILL start it unless some how stopped.

Jan July 6th, 2008 1:38 pm "WRONG Doom n Gloom did NOT say "some kids should die first because they belong to a specific ethnic group

Doom n Gloom said"If Israel strikes Iran and America joins the fight, it is Jewish boys and girls from America that should be sent first.""

---
Doom n Gloom said that if Israel will do X than American boys and Girls whose only crime is being Jews, should be punished by Y.

There was no requirement in Doom n Gloom comment for the Jewish boys and girls to take any part of even support Israel action.

It's very clear case of collective punishment.

I'm tired of the arrogance of the Zionist warmongers who rattle their nuclear sabers against Iran. What right do they have to claim that they are the only ones in the Middle East who should have nuclear weapons.

For that matter, what right do all the other Western countries to do likewise when they threaten with distruction any new country who wishes to protect itself with nuclear weapons to offset the threat by countries like Isreal ande the U.S.?

Isreal and the U.S. should be talking about disarming their own arsenals of nuclear weapons. Isreal should let critics like Mordecai Vanunu and Ilan Pappe speak out to the world about the Zionist genocidal makeup.

Politicians like Obama should be speaking out against Zionist agression rather than act as lapdogs.

Typical reply from the Zionist peanut gallery. Here's a song from the Mexican rock group Molotov called "Hit Me". If Iran gets hit by Zionist "Israel" and 4th Reich America, Iran should hit back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoKx7BTb0lI

forextrader July 6th, 2008 6:52 pm

Damn, post something about Adolph and the biggest bigoted racist comes running on out, based on your reply it is blatantly obvious you never graduated kindergarten and are probably married to your sister.

C O C O,

The ineffable ( unmanifest ) is beyond a bunch of words, but we CAN have direct experience of "it" ( which it isn't - something - as it's really no_thing ).

This direct experience is available to all, when focused upon the breathing, as amazingly that small effort turns the "thinking, thinking … " part of the mind as MASTER, OFF.

With real serious due diligence and practice, the thinking mind may continue unabated, but the presence of TRUE CONSCIOUS existence becomes a glowing reality felt ( although not thought of ).

Y O G A __ is about union and connection between that spiritual level of existence, and the dross of physicality, with the in and out breaths analogous to sleep/waking, spirit/body -- try to obtain the sense of that exact moment on the out breath, when it changes direction , becoming or turning into the inward breath.

Please do read Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth", and watch the free video discussions from iTUNES and/or Oprah.COM for deeper meanings, and personal experiences. ( I simply love Eckhart's comments that either the book will be meaningless to one, or you will feel the transformation consuming your old un-subtle life ).

Y O G A __ is prototypical of all meaning, because w/o the experiencer's experience ( the awareness of being aware ), there cannot be anything else.

BTW, I am just an egg awaiting my own hatching, and seldom have reason to be haughty about my state of being, as there is so sooo much more …
"those that know, do not speak.
those that speak, do not know" -- Lao Tsu

It's time to sit down, be still, and shut up … ( otherwise presence takes a hike )

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

VERACITY

well thank you for that detailed explanation. i wish i knew as much about this as you...............yoga takes on a whole new meaning now.

J A N,

You are correct, when you say"Labelling a whole people as "racist" is a racist thing to do in my opinion. Not all Jews think they are superior to all others. Not all Jews support a racist Zionist ideology or a racist Zionist state."

OOPS { my old posting was "deleted" }

____ N A M A S T E ___ M E A N S ____

There is much within this greeting/salutation, a Sanskrit word meaning:"The Light of God in Me
recognizes and honors The Light of God in You
and in that recognition is our Oneness"

MORE FULLY:"I honor the place in you
in which the entire Universe dwells,
I honor the place in you
which is of Love, of Truth, of Light and of Peace,
When you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
we are One."

IN EVEN MORE DETAIL: "For, Hindu(s), of course, the greeting of choice is "Namaste,"

the two hands pressed together and held near the heart with the
head gently bowed as one says, "Namaste." Thus it is both a
spoken greeting and a gesture, a Mantr(a) and a Mudr(a). The
prayerful hand position is a Mudr(a) called Anjali, from the root
Anj, "to adorn, honor, celebrate or anoint." The hands held in
union signify the oneness of an apparently dual cosmos, the

bringing together of spirit and matter, or the self meeting the
Self. It has been said that the right hand represents the higher
nature or that which is divine in us, while the left hand
represents the lower, worldly nature.
In Sanskrit "Namas" means, "bow, obeisance, reverential
salutation." It comes from the root Nam, which carries meanings

of bending, bowing, humbly submitting and becoming silent. "Te"
means "to you." Thus "namaste" means "I bow to you."
be subtle ways of enhancing the gesture, as in the West one might
shake another's hand too strongly to impress and overpower them
or too briefly, indicating the withholding of genuine welcome.
In the case of Namaste, a deeper veneration is sometimes

expressed by bringing the fingers of the clasped palms to the
forehead, where they touch the brow, the site of the mystic Third
Eye. A third form of namaste brings the palms completely above
the head, a gesture said to focus consciousness in the subtle
space just above the Brahma-randhra, the aperture in the Crown
Chakr(a). This form is so full of reverence it is reserved for
the Almighty and the holiest of Sat Guru(s). the Almighty and the holiest of Sat Guru(s)."

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

Wolf: "I am absolutely amazed at the posts on the blog, ADOLPH would be proud of virtually every one of you anti Semites." Well boofucketyhoo.

This is the proper hyperlink to :"Namaste"

¿ ___ W H A T 's ___ R A C I S T ___ ?

Having a bunch of Jews, and secular ( non-believing ) Zionists be lumped together AS IF they were both "Jews", in the sense of being a "chosen people".

The LOGIC is non-existent that an atheistic bunch of warmongering profiteers of other's misery ( the Zionists ), would in any manner be linked to a historic people who have chosen themselves to obey God's covenant with them.

It's COMPLETELY backwards, always has been, as is LIKELY part of the whacked posturing of a culturally driven mass sense of inferiority. The unmitigated HUBRIS to advertise AS IF they were really the CHOSEN PEOPLE ( memo from GOD ).

If one could imagine the best way to encourage and get all other people to want to pick a fight, I don't know of a better way … other than perhaps stealing someone else's land and systematically killing them off -- and telling the world that these evil "victims" are the cause of it all.

___ I T 's __ R A C I S T __ TO __ A S S E R T __

____ B E I N G __ C H O S E N __ BY __ G O D ____

Defination "rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ [rey-siz-uhm] –noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races."

I agree with Jan today at 2:40 pm, where she says:"How dare one ethnic/identity group (e.g. the Jews) claim exclusivity at having had the worst genocide ever. The attitude very common amongst them of "We are unique" in both their religion and their genocide, reveals a desperately needy people - emotionally needy to be noticed, more to be pitied than feared. However it is sad and SCARY that they might drag the rest of us with them into ultimate disaster because of an overblown sense of their own importance in world history."

All of mankind are created equal, and some may chose to follow a particular religion, but that hardly qualifies any ethnic group as making them "more equal" than any other.

How about it Jews, isn't about time to step off that religious pedestal, and accept the reality that it was an imagined "allegoric" conversation and covenant with God ( that you chose to adhere to ) ?

__ D n G __ hit the nail on the head talking about Jewish BRANDING, as who else would volunteer for the award of being the biggest most miserable ( group of ) martyrs of all existence ?

Well indubitably the BRANDing comes with good news ( encouraging excelling in professions ) and bad, and it appears that the balance has shifted where it's value is less and less, while the price is more and more.

And believe me, I'm not one who want to start some holy war over this, I just want people to meet together on a level playing field, and acknowledge the light that they see in each other ( see Namaste ).

No doubt, this is a tough sell after such a prolong building up of demonizing and dehumanizing of some 25% of the world's people ( as seen by some 0.02% of the people ), to steal a patch of desert land in the Mideast.

AWAKE TO THE SPIRITUAL SIDE
WHERE WE ARE ALL EQUAL

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran's most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".
"It seems that Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani is forgetting that due to the present intertwinement of Israel and Palestine, the destruction of the Jewish State would also means the mass killing of Palestinian population as well", observed one Iranian commentator.

This report is a few years old BUT Rafsanjani ha NEVER repudiated his statement and Ahmadinejad echoes it as often as he can.

I am absolutely amazed at the posts on the blog, ADOLPH would be proud of virtually every one of you anti Semites.

" DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (CBS) ― The head of the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency said Iran could create a nuclear weapon in six months.

IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei spoke on Al-Arabiya television on June 20, 2008, discussing Iran's nuclear program, and the potential for the Middle Eastern country to produce a nuclear weapon.

"If Iran wants to turn to the production of nuclear weapons, it must leave the NPT, expel the IAEA inspectors, and then it would need at least, considering the number of centrifuges and the quantity of uranium Iran has...It would need at least six months to one year," ElBaradei said."

"Israel is evidently the most threatened by the last IAEA report, which concluded that there are unanswered questions about Iran's ability to eventually develop nuclear weapons," said Falk, "so it is elBaradei himself who produced the report that is making Israel nervous."
Meanwhile, Iran is reiterating its decision to continue enriching uranium, calling Western pressure to suspend the work "illogical."

The problem here is we have political fanatics in washington and RELIGIOUS fanatics in Israel and Iran (by far the worst are the religious fanatics because they firmly believe GOD is on their side). google, Ahmadinejad and the Shiite twelvers to get an idea how warped religious people are.
As an agnostic I sit back in total amazement at what people will do for an invisible god NO ONE has seen, or had a two way conversation with, and completely believe what some superstitious men centuries ago write in a supposed holy book.
Mohammed said nice things about the jews in the qur'an when he wanted them to join his cult, the jews refused and Mohammed said allah has cursed the jews and so it is the responsibility of all moslems to kill the jews,
"A writer on a British Muslim Internet forum declared: "I'm so fed up with these dirty, filthy Israeli dogs. May Allah curse them and destroy them all, and may they face the same fate as Banu Qurayzah!" This was an Arabian Jewish tribe that was massacred on Muhammad's orders, and with his participation, Muhammad's first biographer, Ibn Ishaq, puts the number of those killed at "600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900."

Now because of this irrational belief in an invisible god we will in perhaps a year or two be subject to a nuclear winter, oh well so much for global warming.

"We need an amendment to the constitution, that would prohibit Congress from passing to the President its sole responsibility for declaring war."

I don't see that you need an amendment. I don't see in your constitution that congress has any power whatever to grant the president power to declare war. What you need is laws prohibiting the executive from waging wars without declaring them to be wars - "police actions", or military operations under the auspices of NATO or the UN - and a congress with the will to remove an executive that does so. Laws mean nothing if they are not enforced.

Turce, your young daughter has set you on the right path ;) as far as choice of reading material. Another excellent book to read is "The Autobiography of a Tibetan Monk" by Palden Gyatso. It tells of the human rights violations committed by China.

Jan, you're correct. I would add white MALE run America.
There were Catholics, priests and Nuns, Gay persons, many others, millions gassed or shot and whatever they felt like doing to rid themselves of a certain group are gone as well.

andrews, 5 July 2008 @ 6:17 pm, Sorry andrews I was off by then. You are absolutely correct insofar as 'Truth'. I've found in my case I am , what they call, Too Truthful, too honest, which IN TRUTH gets many riled. I've a bad temper, not excusing myself, I've not been able to contain it yet except when dealing with certain things: my daughters, my dogs and all creatures. People, most people andrews, I'm sorry to say are despicable in the US, I'm an American but when I'm in Turkey or Europe, except Paris[not the entire country of France]I have nary a problem. When I find that people spout much garbage I go for the juggler.

lillulu, so true about the Dalai Lama, my youngest daughter has gotten me to start reading his books. I didn't know it was his B-day. HAPPY BIRTHDAY, the embodiment of living Peace his Holiness the Dalai Lama! [thank you lillulu for the info]

Letto, why do you bother? You are a Provocateur just as your Land of the Chosen People. So, Letto does that include the Palestinians?

When people say The Holocaust they mean what the Nazis, the Wehrmacht and their allies did to the Jews during WW2. In the West it is generally acknowledged as the archtypical case of The Genocide of world history. However too many Jews are totally precious about it - no-one else is allowed to compare the suffering of some other group to THE Holocaust. Just because the Nazis became so well organised about how they collected and killed Jews, and just because Eichmann and the other obedient drones were so efficient in their job, and just because the perpetrators were on the losing side, the Jewish Holocaust has achieved a kind of sacred status, especially since it has been such a useful story to ensure enduring support for the existence of Israel.

No matter how Letto feels about it personally, many if not most Jews and Americans get offended if you compare the genocide of the American Indian tribes with the Jewish Holocaust. I think the genocide perpetrated on American soil has not really been acknowledged enough because white run America has not yet lost against some superior military power that can force most Americans to admit their genocidal history (Like the allies did to the Germans).

How dare one ethnic/identity group (eg the Jews) claim exclusivity at having had the worst genocide ever. The attitude very common amongst them of "We are unique" in both their religion and their genocide, reveals a desperately needy people - emotionally needy to be noticed, more to be pitied than feared. However it is sad and SCARY that they might drag the rest of us with them into ultimate disaster because of an overblown sense of their own importance in world history.

i was driving my car behind someone driving slow, and i got impatient, and passed them on the high way. I looked over and saw a man, with a smile on his face, talking to his family. I felt like a fool, earlier thinking my trip in the car was more important. I thought i was "right" a few minutes earlier about my view. it made me realize i had a lot more to learn and grow internally to bring peaceful energy into the world.

everyone has their own talents, some are great debaters, hold politicans accountable, wage peaceful protests, or organize groups to educate citizens in their communities. i wish my span of influence was greater, but becoming more peaceful and living with a smaller footprint is a good goal for me. for others, educating the masses can reach far more people. for those who feel they are much more informed, your point resonates a lot more when you are using compassion at the same time. When i see that, I'm much more engaged and think about it more...

Viva Iran!!!

It's been said, but I'll say it again...

If the Israelis are this stupid Iran will close the Straights of Hormuz. Oil will then immediately hit $200 plus a barrel and the world will be plunged into societal collapse.

Any national warmongers who sincerely believe unprovoked attacks on a Muslim country by Israel - which is by extension the US - will improve world security, should be locked up. The Islamic world has suffered a lot over the last century or so at the hands of the west and they are not endlessly tolerant. A few terrorist attacks will look like sweetness itself compared with the the aftermath of an attack on Iran.

I am very glad I don't have children.

Letto:

I don't usually respond to fecklessness. However, let me just remind you that it is the US who is creating all of this carnage and chaos in the Middle East, NOT Iran, no!

I'm sure that after 9/11 some in this mendacious Bush administration had probably thought about blaming it on Iran, but instead chose Iraq, knowing it was an easier target to initiate their truculent plan of Middle East hegemony. This futile and deadly attempt at dominating the flow of earl, the black gold, Texas tea, with military bases throughout Iraq as the inncocent men, woman and children are forced to flee. How sad!

Are you with me so far, Letto? Good.

Let me pose this question to you. Suppose Russia had invaded and was occupying Canada and was then hinting of venturing into the United States? What would we do sit back and let it happen? I don't think so! Iran is a country of peaceful people, they do not want war. The Iraq- Iran
war was enough for these people, and we know the history behind that war, don't we?

Having said that, there were no WMD's in Iraq. They were merely used to scare the America sheeple into their shell so they'd support these illegal and horrific oil wars. Iran isn't a threat either, and most of the American people now know this. They see what is happening to their country Letto, it's not good.

Wake up and smell the tyranny and fascism.

pacorabo, apologies if my question caused you to get angry. I was basically asking what type of actions at an individual, i can take. I'm sure there are many like writing congress, for example.

letto, you may be correct about not only boycotting israeli products, especially when the US has the majority of the weapons.

some folks use common dreams to debate, but my intent was just to reach out, connect, and maybe educate myself on wholesome actions i can take. i know there are many peaceful people living in Israel who want peace, just like in the U.S., Europe, Asia. I don't claim to have the answers.

peace

Old Jeffersonian July 5th, 2008 3:41 pm "Iran has launched no wars for several centuries. The NIE says there is no evidence of an Iranian nuclear weapon program. Other intelligence agencies can find no evidence. The UN Inspectors can find no evidence of a nuclear weapons program. Iran is a signator to the Non-Proliferation Treaty. The best estimate for Iran producing a nuclear weapon, IF there is some sort of a covert program which no one in the world can find, is about TEN YEARS. Then we have the US, which has the largest stockpile of WMD's on the planet and has demonstrated a willingness to use them, and Israel which has several hundred nuclear armed missiles, has signed no treaties and allows no inspections by any agency, nor will it discuss its weaponry..."

Good points! Iran has many smart people. If Iran is attacked, I hope they can cripple the US empire without slitting their own throats. Some posters laid out stealth campaigns the Iranians could employ that might "drain the beast" without calling undue attention to themselves.

Regarding why Israel is so hell bent on bombing Iran check out the alex jones show for June 30 where he interviews CIA analyst Ray McGovern, who stated that Israel's primary concern right now is not that Iran is an existenital threat, but that with all the Western/Zionist hype about Iran, that settlement activity, and influx of Jews into Israel to colonize occupied lands, is down. The Zionists can't have expansion and hype the fear of Iran at the same time, so a bombing of Iran, even if it poses no threat (it hasn't invaded another country for 300 years), will boost settler "morale," even as it undermines Israel's safety by doing so. Do you have to be "Jewish" to be a full Israeli citizen? Isn't that a violation of the UN charter or something -- the only theocracy in the world? So modern and forward thinking, the Israelis...The most progressive Arab critics of Israeli policy are calling for a single state solution to the Palestinian/Israel crisis. If you look at a map of Israeli roads and settlements in occupied lands, you will see that no viable Palestinian state could ever be formed within the current boundaries.

http://prisonplanet.tv/alex_jones_live.html

Doom n Gloom:"JEWS ARE THE RACISTS! It is ZIONISM that is at the heart of Jewish racism."

Labelling a whole people as "racist" is a racist thing to do in my opinion. Not all Jews think they are superior to all others. Not all Jews support a racist Zionist ideology or a racist Zionist state.

Letto "I'm a Zionist, but unlike you, I don't say that some kids should die first because they belong to a specific ethnic group."

WRONG Doom n Gloom did NOT say "some kids should die first because they belong to a specific ethnic group"

Doom n Gloom said"If Israel strikes Iran and America joins the fight, it is Jewish boys and girls from America that should be sent first."

Anyone, apart from Letto, can see Doom n Gloom's meaning is that as it is Israel's war and Israel is a state primarily for the Jews, then American boys and girls shouldn't be sent but sending Jew would be more appropriate to fight for a Jewish Israel.

Well there is a percentage of Jews who are not for Israel - but I don't know what percentage. Someone could help us on that one. So perhaps it would be unfair sending them to fight for an Israel that they do not support.

Letto, don't you think it's reasonable to assume that some people would be offended by a certain group of people because they call themselves "God's Chosen People" and wrote it about themselves in the Old Testament? Like they're superior to everyone else?

Matthew Simmons, author of 'Twilight in Desert', has predicted that oil will rise into the $600/bbl range if there is a military strike inside Iran.

And what do you think THAT will do to the world economy, hmm?

Let us not forget that there are some other superpowers in this world and they are also very interested in Iran. Russia for example has a nuclear power plant in Iran and right now has special forces there protecting energy needs. And China has two billion people, and a whole lot of money. The world is hip to whats happening even though the sheeple in the good old usa are turning a blind eye like always.And you are 100 percent correct there pacorabo The Zionist do own this country and its not a secret. PEACE

nellemason: "Letto, you're crediting Wikipedia as a a credible source???"

The data is from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

Also worth keeping in mind that wikipedia entries related to Israel have already been tainted by the efforts of disciplined Zionist squads:

In what was probably not a very smart idea, Gilead Ini, a senior research analyst for CAMERA, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, put out an e-mail call for 10 volunteers "to help us keep Israel-related entries on Wikipedia from becoming tainted by anti-Israel editors."...More than 50 sympathizers answered the call, and Ini put his campaign into motion.

In follow-up e-mails to his recruits, Ini emphasized the secrecy of the campaign: "There is no need to advertise the fact that we have these group discussions," he wrote. "Anti-Israel editors will seize on anything to try to discredit people who attempt to challenge their problematic assertions, and will be all too happy to pretend, and announce, that a 'Zionist' cabal . . . is trying to hijack Wikipedia."

TonyR:

"Letto So Israelis are the "chosen" people?"
"Israel as a right to exist beyond international law and all norms of international behaviour because they were chosen by GOD?"

No, Israelis are a nation like any other nation and has a right to defend itself like anyone else. I never spoke about God. in fact, I'm an atheist.

braithwa842 "Hizbollah are NOT Iranian forces"

No, but the Iranian revolutionary guard are.

Iranian forces attacked others in 2006.

Doom n Gloom: "BULLSHYT LETTO! Jews in America have BRANDED the Holocaust and protected it as if they own Genocide as their exclusive tragedy. It has been used for sympathy since the end of WW2."

Not true, I'm a Jew and I never said that Holocaust / Genocide happened exclusively to Jews.

---
Doom n Gloom: "the purposeful deaths of 112,000,000 American Indians in fear that it will hurt their ownership of Genocide"

Nonsense. Are you saying that Jews are trying to hide what Christians did to Native American?

---
Doom n Gloom:"JEWS ARE THE RACISTS! It is ZIONISM that is at the heart of Jewish racism."

I'm a Zionist, but unlike you, I don't say that some kids should die first because they belong to a specific ethnic group.

If someone would have said: "All African American Kids should be the fist to be sent to fight Iran first, or all Native American kids should be the first who are sent to clear the mind fields" Wouldn't you call that person a racist?

Letto,

you're crediting Wikipedia as a a credible source??? Over scholarly research? HA HA HA! That's too funny. . .

Sorry to break it to you, but Wikipedia has all sorts of interesting little errors. It can be a good place to start, but caveat emptor.

Heavy Runner- the Exocet anti-ship missile is FRENCH made, not Russian.

Happy Birthday to the embodiment of compassion, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, a true man of peace. :)

It's ironic that George W. Bush, who is the embodiment of warmongering, greed, dishonesty, and evil, was born on the same date, July 6. :(

Andrews:
To your questions...
is there anything that Israel produces that we consume here in the U.S.?
How can we boycott Israeli products?

...Are you truly a moron or merely tring to be a jokester????

While Israel proper produces little more than fruits using enslaved arabs and sophisticated weaponry to kill the same, Jews of all stripes virtually OWN or CONTROL corporate America (the land of the free) including the media, Hollywood, liquor, banking, oil, not to mention gambling and pornography.

Check out how Congress, the White House and the Pentagon leadership pay obeissance to AIPAC, the main Zionist lobby, before you ask your questions again. Just be glad that they have not yet sent for you to fight THEIR wars.

Pangolin: "The Israeli's will bomb Iran before Bush leaves office and possibly timed to give a boost to the GOP candidate."

It always amazes me that bombing and killing people would give a boost to politicians. What does that say about Americans? No one loves war more than the world's superpower. Would they love war so much if they didn't have stockpiles of lethal weapons of mass destruction and the world's most powerful military? And is that a reason to attack a country?

War and killing are big business in the USA. Its cult-of-death members are in the millions.

Letto

So Israelis are the "chosen" people? Where does that leave the rest of the world's people then who are not chosen? Its a shame for babies born in Iran or elsewhere to be not chosen.

Never has the world experienced such racism or supremacist's since the Nazis. So Israel as a right to exist beyond international law and all norms of international behaviour because they were chosen by GOD?\

Whose GOD? The Zionist or Neocon or Oilman?

What ignorant twaddle. To hell with Israel and their belief that they are superior to the rest of the worlds people. Why should they hold anyone to ransom.

This rogue nation should be immediately disarmed before they bring the world to destruction just to suit their own theological delusions.

The paranoia of the Zionists will get all of us killed. Somebody nees to bury their collective foot in Israel's collective ass before it is too late!

Iran's response sounds like an adult response.

I think the children in this chess game want the price of oil to go the highest it possibly can. Period. So they will keep up the talk of invasion for as long as they can get it to go over with the populations being manipulated by the media in both countries.

The CIA, NSA, and all the other spook organizations - if we could wave a wand and get rid of them all, if they all went kaput, were gone, went bye bye, were disbanded, removed from authority, and individuals found to have been breaking laws were prosecuted - would this world be a better place? Would we all be safer? Can we ever remove their stain from our collective souls?

The USA. It sure would be nice if someone (us?!) revolutionized it into what the ideal was supposed to be. If you read the Constitution it may make you mad, because it sure looks like The Constitution was written to protect the rich white male land owners. Period.

The Bush Crime Family fortunes go back to poppy Prescott doing business with the enemy. He made their wealth off Hitler, building his concentration camps during WWII. Theirs' is evil wealth. As all illgotten wealth surely is. As these new war profiteers' wealth is. Think Haliburton, KBR, Blackwater, etc.

I wonder, is there a way to unite this internet community and fast? Because I think the elite plan a fast demise of the status quo to get things in the new world order quickly. And I gotta tell ya since I've been on vacation moving my daughter to an apartment complex where Section 8 housing is accepted this past week. To get to the complex you go through a wealthier area, and the looks I got from the wealthier area were of fear, and the looks in the complex were of desperation. I am not too shocked that it is feeling desperate out here.... And I do despair the outcome that surely awaits this madness of pushing Iran.

And where are the wind farms? Where are the solar roofs? The technology has been out there since the 70's.

Why didn't electric car stations pop up along with electric cars back then?

Why, now, today all these years later, you can only get an all electric car if you are super rich and live in certain areas where the fuel cell stations have been built?

It's the OIL cartels - what a racket! What greed! And now their oil wars for profit and blood for their oil. Surely Jesus weeps.

A lot of scenarios exist if Israel bombs and Iran retaliates. It might be a good idea to quietly squirrel away 3-6 months of water and canned goods just in case there is a gap in the oil - refining - transportation - food supply chain before rationing is organized. Maybe electric heaters, firewood or a propane heater and supply, too. Many contingencies.

Israel will have to live with Iran becoming a resurgent regional power with wealth, weapons and alliances. Bombing the nuclear facilities would only delay that. It might actually hasten any Iranian nuclear weapons plans.

Politics sure is ironic. The US supports Baluchi rebels in Iran, but roughs up and kicks out a world renowned Baluchi human rights advocate from Pakistan on arrival in Newark.

Post 9/11 CIA run New World Order.

Iran is such a nuisance:

1. Firstly , how dare they claim the holocaust never happened.

About 5 million jews were killed,murdered.

What banks,corporations,and covert agencies funded Hitlers war machine?
Truth be told, follow the money to find the real monsters of World War Two and the Holocaust.

"You can't handle the truth."

Sort of like how there have been 1 million Iraqi deaths in the illegal occupation of Iraq.
That didn't happen either,did it?

What about the 5 million displaced Iraqi middle class, refugees.

So you have Iraq-Iran-Afghanistan.

Oil,,,,,, Natural GAS

Iraq has the 5th largest oil reserve in the world. 115,000,000,000 1 January 2007 est

WMD's Danger Danger,,, USA Occupation.USA Oil control, and permenant bases deal.

Iran 4th Largest Oil reserve 138,400,000,000 2007 est.

Nuke Development Danger , Danger ,,,,, Sound Familiar !!!!!!!!!!!!!

World Natural Gas Reserves

Gas Reserve Borders Iran,Iraq

3 Iran 26,370,000,000,000 1 January 2006 est
12 Iraq 3,170,000,000,000 1 January 2007 est
13 Turkmenistan 2,860,000,000,000 1 January 2007 est Natural Gas Reserve.
18 Uzbekistan 1,798,000,000,000 1 January 2006 est.
19 Kazakhstan 1,765,000,000,000 1 January 2006 est.

Iran is number 3 and 4 in the world for Natural Gas and Oil Reserves, But they can't have Nukes to Protect thier Countrys natural resources because they will attack Israel ?????????

Quite Frankley , if you are Iran, would you give a shit about Israel.
Yea, these dumb ass rag heads don't care about anything but destroying Israel. They sit on the worlds future wealth, but don't care, they want Nukes to destroy us and Israel.

Maybe the major media works for the CIA ???????

Ooops I almost forgot Afghanistan...

Wolrds largest supplyer of Heroin, And Terrorists , Drugs and thugs,,,,,, CIA Funland.

"Munich "When is the last time Iran attacked anyone?"
2006. Iranian forces (revolutionary guard missile units stationed in Lebanon) fired missiles at Israeli civilian targets."

Hizbollah are NOT Iranian forces. What is more, Israel created bogus excuses for attacking, for about the 4th time and practically demolished all of Lebanon, and left millions of cluster bombs to kill and maim children. What little Hizbollah rockets did DURING the period when Israeli aerial bombing was destroying most Lebanese infrastructure is justified. If anyone else had helped the Lebanese, it would have been legitimate defense.

When is the last time Iran attacked anyone? - 300 years ago, if you dont count defending Iran from the attacks of Saddam with US encouragement and US weapons, including US supplied chemical weapons.

If the Iranians are smart they will defend themselves from Israel and the US with caltrops rather than pikes. That is to say they can win a war of attrition but not a slugfest where the US has excuses to destroy Iranian infrastructure.

Eventually it will occur to even the idiotic US populace that endless wars are too expensive.

The Israeli's will bomb Iran before Bush leaves office and possibly timed to give a boost to the GOP candidate. The Iranians have had many years to watch the effects of US bombing right next door will have all vital installations buried deep into the hills. What will happen is that the Israeli's will bounce a lot of rocks and concrete around to little effect. Bunker busters have known engineering limits and the really vital tunnels will have tunnel boring machines pre-positioned to cut new access tunnels from the inside.

Then the nasty war will start. If the Iranians are smart they will sink several tankers of their own in the straights and rig the wreckage with IEDs. Then they will release some kind of slow and quiet torpedo/mine to make the Persian Gulf a no-go zone for shipping. Mines large enough to breach hulls but not sink ships. Finally massive numbers or explosively formed projectiles (EFPs) will suddenly appear in Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Nigeria in the hands of insurgents. US armor will start to crack like so many eggs.

With no single event traceable to the Iranian military or large enough to make the evening news Iran can cripple the US and EU economies. A crippled US will eventually drop Israel while Israel will have to deal with the famished Egyptian and Jordanian populations next to it's bordors.

Letto July 6th, 2008 3:38 am

Doom n Gloom "If Israel strikes Iran and America joins the fight, it is Jewish boys and girls from America that should be sent first."

Once more - racism is showing up its ugly face.

BULLSHYT LETTO! Jews in America have BRANDED the Holocaust and protected it as if they own Genocide as their exclusive tragedy. It has been used for sympathy since the end of WW2. It has been wrongly used to label any criticism of Jews as racism. Jews have a strong presence in the Corporate Media and refuse to allow a discussion of the American Holocaust, the purposeful deaths of 112,000,000 American Indians in fear that it will hurt their ownership of Genocide. JEWS ARE THE RACISTS! It is ZIONISM that is at the heart of Jewish racism. Now Zionism threatens to enfold the world in WW3. American's had better blunt the influence of AIPAC or their children will be fighting and dying to protect Jewish racism. Except for a minority of Christian fundamentalists and brow-beat politicians, there is little support for Israel. Protecting Israel is no longer in our National interest. If Israel begins a war with Iran America should stay out of it.

At the heart of the issue here is the separation of U-235 from U-238 and the technology for doing so on a scale massive enough to produce a nuclear weapon VERSUS doing so for the creation of enough heat to create steam to produce electricity.
Iran since the overthrow of the Shah during the Carter Administration, as a signatory to the Nuclear NonProliferation Treaty (NNPT), UNLIKE the rogue State, Israel, has stated unconditionally that it has no interest in developing a Nuclear Weapon. In the current context in which both the United States and the former Soviet Union states are dismantling their nuclear weapons, why is it that we permit Israel to exist as a non-compliant nuclear state while demanding that Iran complies with the impossible? We talk of a tipping point for oil and tell Iran to ignore it, saying they have all the oil they need, which they do NOT, and WE do not. As a nation, the United States is really, really, SICKO, and the sooner we start to come to terms with how really sick we are, and this goes really deep---to Marines in Iraq slaughtering innocents in their homes---the sooner we will come to terms with each other.

Face it: Iran was right to rebel against U.S. hegemony. The world knows it. The MSM are incredibly ignorant here. What does Katie Couric actually know about the physics of nuclear energy, let alone the ENTROPY of the Media? Iran is right to seek nuke power for electrical generation, as France is doing. The real problem is that nuke power ends up creating radioactive wastes that nobody wants anywhere.

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