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Gen. Clark and That POW Thing McCain Hates Talking About
The knives sure are out for retired Gen. Wesley Clark.
In case you missed it: Interviewed by CBS' Bob Schieffer on Sunday's Face the Nation, Clark said that for all the national security experience John McCain claims, he never held a position of command during wartime. "I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war," Clark said. "He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility." Clark then continued, "But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air -- in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it publicly?' He hasn't made those calls, Bob."
Then came this:
SCHIEFFER: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences, either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean --CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.
From the response of McCain's defenders in the press, you'd think Clark had claimed that John McCain was never really in Vietnam at all. CNN's Rick Sanchez described it with an incredulous expression as "dissing, some might say Swiftboating, John McCain's military record." ABC's Rick Klein accused Clark of "calling into question, in surprisingly sharp language, Sen. John McCain's military record." Over at the Wall Street Journal, Gerald Seib and Sara Murray were aghast: "The one certainty of the 2008 campaign, it might have seemed, was that Sen. John McCain would be acknowledged all around as a war hero for his service in Vietnam -- but apparently not."
Of course, they were just wrong: Clark didn't call McCain's record into question; he didn't say McCain wasn't a hero, and he sure as hell didn't "Swiftboat" McCain. Not only was he responding directly to Schieffer's question, using Schieffer's words, but he explicitly honored McCain's service. Those key pieces of context were left out of the reports that all three networks broadcast the next day, as well as many of the reports in newspapers and on television that followed. In The New York Times, Jeff Zeleny not only removed the context, but he simply repeated the McCain campaign's outrageously disingenuous charge that Clark was "impugning Mr. McCain's heroism."
But to understand why the press is reacting with such outrage, you have to understand what they've been saying about McCain for the last decade.
There's a myth out there that the McCain campaign and the media have cooperated to create. It says that John McCain is reluctant to exploit his Vietnam POW story for political advantage, so modest and full of integrity is he. We've seen this repeated again and again, not just by McCain and his supporters but by reporters who ought to know better.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
From the first time he ran for Congress in 1982 up to the present day, McCain has made his POW story the centerpiece of his entire political career. The key moment of that 1982 campaign was when he responded to his opponent's (absolutely true) accusation that McCain was a carpetbagger by saying, "As a matter of fact, when I think about it now, the place I lived longest in my life was Hanoi." At every point since, it has been the deft use of this tool that has brought McCain renewed attention or won him a key victory.
McCain has every right to talk about Vietnam all he wants -- it's his story, and no serious person has ever disputed the details. But don't tell us he's reluctant to use it, because he isn't. He talks about it to voters, he talks about it to contributors, he talks about it to reporters, he talks about it with seriousness, he jokes about it, and his campaign makes every attempt it can to remind people of what happened to him in Vietnam.
As I said, there's nothing wrong with that. But what happened with Gen. Clark reveals the McCain Rules, as he and the press would have us understand them. Here's how things are supposed to work: It's fine for the McCain campaign to run ads touting his time as a POW, create web videos touting his time as a POW, have him mention his time as a POW in speeches, and have him bring it up in debates (remember "I was tied up at the time"?). In other words, it's fine to have John McCain's entire presidential run be presented through the filter of his POW experience. Should, however, someone even ask the question of whether the fact that McCain was a POW really qualifies him to be president, that would be a deeply offensive affront to all that is right and good, and must not be tolerated. Talk about having it both ways.
Let's keep in mind that no one seems to have argued with Clark on the merits of his claim. No one responded by saying, "General Clark is wrong -- in fact, McCain's POW experience does qualify him to be president." I suppose one could make that argument, but I haven't seen anyone actually make it. Instead, what they have said is that Clark was out of bounds to even raise the issue. To even assert that McCain's Vietnam experience isn't in and of itself a qualification for the Oval Office is such an unforgivable transgression that its merits don't need to be addressed.
There is, however, one person who wouldn't disagree with Clark's statement that being a POW doesn't qualify you for the presidency. When asked by the National Journal in 2003, "Do you think that military service inherently makes somebody better equipped to be commander-in-chief?" this politician answered, "Absolutely not. History shows that some of our greatest leaders have had little or no military experience. ... I have advised [a presidential candidate] that I'd be very careful about how much you talk about that, because you don't want it to sound self-serving." The person who said that was John McCain, and the presidential candidate he was talking about was John Kerry.
For years, we've watched as reporters have dropped the fact that McCain was a POW into their stories, apropos of nothing, as if it were merely part of his name... John McCain, who was a POW in Vietnam, visited a farm to discuss the dairy industry. I kid, but it seems that any criticism of McCain's character is greeted with "But he was a POW!" When Howard Dean called McCain an "opportunist" back in April, Chris Wallace of Fox News indignantly asked Sen. John Kerry, "Do you think John McCain was an opportunist when he refused to take early release from a North Vietnamese prison camp?" Just last week, The Washington Post's Richard Cohen wrote that though McCain has flip-flopped on immigration, taxes, and a host of other issues, it's really OK, because "we know his bottom line. As his North Vietnamese captors found out, there is only so far he will go, and then his pride or his sense of honor takes over."
So when Gen. Clark, or anyone else, says that the fact that McCain suffered as a POW forty years ago is really neither here nor there when it comes to what the next president will be faced with, it's no surprise that McCain's fanboys in the media react with such high dudgeon. After all, to suggest that the POW story is only one piece of McCain's biography, and not the be-all-end-all on which the next president should be chosen, is as much an indictment of the press as it is of McCain.
Paul Waldman of Media Matters Action Network is the author or coauthor of four books on politics and media, including his most recent work, Free Ride: John McCain and the Media, coauthored with David Brock.
Copyright © 2008 HuffingtonPost.com, Inc.



77 Comments so far
Show AllI'm sorry McCain endured being a POW. But that experience, if anything, makes him more likely to have questionable judgment in military matters than likely to have good judgment. Ditto his mega-officer ancestors whom he has not been able (in his own mind) to keep up with.
THE STORY on McCain is his being so hot-headed as a kid that his classmates nick-named him McNasty. THE STORY on McCain is his pride of a hard-drinking skirt-chasing youth.
THE STORY on McCain is 25 years of profiting off beer sold to the economic underclass in 30-packs at the C-stores. None of that predicts leadership. It shouldn't take Gen. Clark for us to know this, but at least Gen. Clark has an earned right to be speaking by virtue of his own experiences in uniform. I wish he'd just go further with it.
Electing McCain because of POW stuff ain't much different than being swiftboated again. Wrong leader for wrong reason, elected (if he is) by the wrong crowd.
Since when does the cowardly bombing of civilians qualify one as a "war hero?" 100 per cent disabled - $58 thou a year - the military is the biggest welfare system in the world. [for some people]
THE STORY on McCain is that, as a USNA "legacy", he finished with a class rank of 895 out of 899.
THE STORY on McCain is that he lost three jets out from under him before he was shot down, including one which hit high tension lines when he buzzed a beach, and another when he was returning home from an Army-Navy game, possibly after too much drinking.
THE STORY on McCain is that without his family name, the above two stories would have washed him out of flight qualification forever.
THE STORY on McCain is that his "fighter pilot bravado" caused the fire on the USS Forrestal that killed ~150 sailors.
THE STORY on McCain is that he collaborated with the Viet Cong for special, especially medical, treatment and was known to his co-prisoners as "Songbird".
THE STORY on McCain is that when he came home from Viet Nam and found his faithful wife had lost her great looks in a horrible car accident, he went shopping around for a new trophy and started sleeping with Cindy while still married.
THE STORY on McCain is that he will do anything to get elected, including sucking up to the "Agents of Intolerance" and Bush's billionaire base.
THE STORY on McCain is that he is a hot-headed, dim-witted child of privilege (like anyone else we know?) who is (equally) unfit for the presidency.
McCain is as dumb as George. That´s why Americans will elect him president. God help us!
Doug Valentine has the goods on McCain:
http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine06132008.html
Superb.
Oh, wcdevins? Nice list; well stated.
wcdevins,
Thanks for some more of THE STORY. Especially your third point above.
wcdevins,
Thanks for some more of THE STORY. Especially your third point above.
How has the Viet Nam war become rehabilitated to the point where the people who fought there were "heroes". It's like calling fallen Nazi S.S. members heroes. Does this country really have such amnesia that it can't recall that the whole thing was a war crime to begin with and many Americans refused to have anything to do with it? John McCain was a coward who dropped cluster bombs and napalm from high in the sky and then flew back to the U.S.S. Forestall for some burgers and beer. Before he burned the ship down that is. But that's another story.
McCain is only trying to head off Clark being chosen as VP. He knows that Clark's loyalty to the Republic is far superior to any anybody who may have graduated at the bottom of the USNA. McCain's loyalty to neo-con hacks (who also never got it right) and the ranks of those who never stopped giving credit (or blaming) their invisible playmates. John McCain is trying to run on the only platform he's got. Like George W. Bush, HE is the only one crazy enough to scare those bad old terrorists into submission. How's that been working for the Grand Old Pussies lately?
So if McCain becomes president, is he still going to receive the $58,000 a year disability pension he receives and on top of the $400,000 a year salary as president? If he is fit enough to be president, why is he receiving a tax free disability pension?
it's about time the democrats played hardball....keep hitting'em with the truth and the facts HARD !...DON'T BACK DOWN ! the GAS and OIL PARTY,don't like the taste of their own medicine,and they can't handle it ! what makes john mccain a hero ? can someone answer that question ?
Shot down while bombing civilians over the Gulf of Tonkin lie....
McCain thinks he's safe as long as he can steer the discussion away from his weaknesses, the issues that the neo-con toads have NEVER been right about. His supposedly endearing take on Ronald Reagan will only work with the short-term memory loss crowd. I've seen Alzheimer's and Dementia up close, it's never cute. Maybe he thinks it's the best way to remind people about his salad days in the Hanoi Hilton. We need a President who's got all his wits about him, sir.
Street porter that plays pushpin and studies philosophy at night classes is what we need
Fantastic article and also much of what I was getting at in my blog entry yesterday: http://chriscommons.blogspot.com
I was amazed at how this exchange between Schieffer and Clark blew up in the corporate media.
What is troubling is the "cult of the military" which has developed in this country. If someone wears a uniform to "serve" their country then they are to be treated as individuals beyond reproach. This same mentality was fostered by the Nazis. Without their loss of WWII all of their offocers would have gotten off scott free as well. Goes back to history being written by the victors (and justice applying only to the loosers). That McCAin spent time in a POW camp is deplorable. It would raise questions as to his psychological stability to be a president however.
It says a lot about Americans too
And DD, I totally agree with you
MickUltra is as much a hero as the shrub is a pilot...both spoiled rich kids who have made a science of out lying..that's why they get along so well! Only difference is MickUltra is pissed at the world...the shrub is not even aware he's in this reality.
The truth, as witnessed in all of the above posts, is not pretty. It is the principal reason the American public may very well continue to elect liars to the office of POTUS. The American public doesn't like the nasty ugly truth that former President Clinton was, perhaps still is, a serial philanderer and sexual cheater in his marriage. The American public doesn't like the ugly truth that both President Bush and Vice President Cheney are possibly pathological liars. They don't like the ugly truth that all three of these public officials were Vietnam War draft dodgers in the real if not the legal sense and/or used papa's influence to avoid being sent to Vietnam during his checkered military reserve service. So to reflect what they believe the American public wants to read or see the MSM provides us with luke warm print pablum and pretty soft focused TV pictures. They have been doing the same thing with John McCain since he was released from the Hanoi Hilton roughly 35 years ago. What makes us think that just because he is running for the most important elected office in the world the MSM is suddenly going to take an honest unvarnished look at what the good Senator has really done in his adult life. Forget it. The truth is ugly and painful. The US public and the US MSM don't like ugly and painful. They like pretty soft focused pictures that make it seem as if the USA is some kind of wonderland led by noble guys who only screwed up a few times when they were young. How sad and tragic for the public and for the truth.
There was a great issue of The Nation a couple of weeks ago devoted to the corporate media's love of McCain. Anyone out there who still believes the media is a shill for the government rather than that the government is a front and support system for corporate media?
It's just not about being a hero or worshipping the military - after all, look what was done to Kerry with barely a peep of outrage from the pundits. It's also, and probably more so, about who Big Bidness wants as president. And it would appear that they want someone who will lower corporate taxes, continue to squelch the middle class, and do whatever it takes to keep the powerful and wealthy in their ever-so-lofty position.
It's the military industrial complex at work here. McCain is their man. Kerry, every bit as much a "hero," was not.
John Kerry was "swift-boated" for his war medals. Why should McCain be rewarded?
While I do admire those who serve and suffer in the military, I see no reason why it qualifies them to be president. Someone (I think in response to a question from Jack Cafferty) said that claiming that being a POW qualifies a person to be president is the same as claiming that being mugged in the streets qualifies one to be mayor.
I was so happy to hear General Clark say what he did! I just hope he sticks to what he said, and doesn't back-track like everyone else has done when the "patriotic" backlash hits.
Instead of speaking out against him as Obama immediately did, I was hoping, after what someone responded with, like - how DARE Clark say such a thing about this great American patriot who gave so much for his country - making it sound like that was something only a dirty democrat would do - that Obama would remind the country what Bush's republicans did to Max Cleland, who gave three limbs for his country, and John Kerry.
I was wondering if any of the facts about McCain end up on MySpace, and other such places where so many of the younger people hang out? I can't go to any of them to find out because my dinosaur computer can't make the trip.
An excellent article and to ther point. general Clark (not one of my favorite folk) simply said that flying a fighter plane doesn't make you any more qualified to be President than not flying one.
John McCain is certainly no coward and anyone that calls him one should be ashamed of themselves, he's proven he isn't. But that doesn't have a thing to do with being President.
The media blew that up for their own reasons and Amnesty John took advantage of it. He'd be stupid not to.
But Clark told the truth and was not out of line to my way of thinking.
I noted above that it was said McCain was bombing civilians, where did you get that information? Just curious.
grigor July 2nd, 2008 12:34 pm
"How has the Viet Nam war become rehabilitated to the point where the people who fought there were "heroes". It's like calling fallen Nazi S.S. members heroes."
Forget the hero stuff, anybody there was far too scared to be going around being a hero, but I'm really not to happy about the comparison to the Nazi SS. You are way out of line.
I was invloved in a car accident once. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me as CEO of General Motors.
"I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war," General Clark said. "He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces as a prisoner of war."
What a mealy mushed mouth pussy Clark is. John McCain is and was an unrepentant murdering war criminal. Torture was way to kind. Instead of fishing him out of that lake in Hanoi after his warplane crashed, his Vietnamese rescuers should have just pushed his face back in the mud until he quit squirming.
McCain is and was a COWARD - plain & simple!
Anyone trained to pilot a $40M fighter jet whose sole intention is to drop bombs indescriminately on a population of rurla farmers with the intent to terrorize them into submission is a COWARD and a CRIMINAL.
McCain himself on an episode of 60 Minutes in the 90's admitted that he was a "war criminal". Has the footage disappeared along the the nano-second national memory of the US citizenery?
WAKE UP AMERICA - we are the Nazi's of the 21st Century.
And one further POINT, which McSame tries to use is we don't want Iraq to tun into another VietNam, weeelll Number One Look at it now (Vietnam) is a model of growth with socialist constraints, for the betterment of the people-sound familiar, #2, speaking of interfering with national self-determination (an excuse to not helping the People of Darfor, oil under their land) the Vietnamese actually stoped the Slaughter of millions by POL POT, in Cambodia, then left...and Thirdly, most importantly, MaSame was FREED by the Patriotic Protest, Of AMERICANS stopping that unjust war, WHICH was a VICTORY for DEMOCRACY, which is POOH POOHED today by the right wing nuts, reminds me heavily of Charlton Heston's movie Planet of the APES - where the militariostic Gorillas wanted to solve everything with violence
No serious person ever disputed the details of McCains record? You're kidding right? So, what's the punch line?
McSnit got his war medals for allegedly resisting torture, after doing three years of radio propaganda for the Vietcong. No verifiable injuries other than those sustained in the crash. The still communist Vietnamese, who have no reason to lie, called him "Songbird" and say he gave up before they laid a finger on him. Now he over-compensates for his cowardice and mass murder from above the clouds by snarling at anyone who points out anything true about his whole shameful existence.
Thomas More
""How has the Viet Nam war become rehabilitated to the point where the people who fought there were "heroes". It's like calling fallen Nazi S.S. members heroes."
Forget the hero stuff, anybody there was far too scared to be going around being a hero, but I'm really not to happy about the comparison to the Nazi SS. You are way out of line."
Way out of line? Why is it that any crime the United States commits is okay because of American exceptionalism. If it looks like a Nazi, walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi, and behaves like a Nazi... well. More than 2 million dead Vietnamese in our thwarted attempt to take over their country.
John McCain was the first "Swift-boat" victim, in 2000. George Bush and Carl Rove painted John McCain as a mentally unstable and damaged veteran from his experience as a war prisoner. (While this may be true) IT should be remembered that the biggest smears to Johns McCain's patriotism and military service came from within the Republican party itself. I didn't hear any of the MSM reporters or FOX windbags shouting about it back then. I think we should ask them why.
I believe it has pretty much been said with regard to General Clark and Senator McCain.
While I find some of the remarks surprising and perhaps questionable, I do not pretend to be the great historian so I will give my fellow contributors the benefit of the doubt in those cases.
The bone of contention I have here is the fact that Senator Obama has not taken a stand following all the criticism by the McCain people and all the media attention it has attracted/.
He went out of his way to praise McCain's military service (as if Clark had criticized it); but that was never the case. He is acting like a typical politician; just telling the people what he thinks they want to hear (or at least telling them what his advisors are saying he should).
A spokesman for Obama named Burton yesterday implied that the candidate had rejected General Clark's remarks but that was not inferred in the speech I saw.
I'm no speechwriter but something like this by Obama I believe would suffice.
"I have mentioned all along the great respect that I have for Senator McCain for his military service. At the same time, I respect General Clark for the time that he spent in the military as well.
However, General Clark made a statement with regard to questioning Senator McCain's qualifications to serve as president, he did not question his patriotism. He wxpressed his own opinion that he is entitled to do. I neither support nor condemn what he has said. Neither General Clark nor anyone else speaks for me. If I have something to say on a subject, I am perfectly capable of doing so myself. While I appreciate General Clark's support of my candidacy, there is no reason for anyone to assume that he is representing me in giving his opinions"
Now, Barack, that really wouldn't be too hard to do, would it?
I couldn't help but notice that throughout the primaries, every time I saw Barack Obama he was in a black suit (I believe he mentioned that he bought 5 at one time)
Since he has become the "presumptive" nominee he has opted for softer colors; I've seen a tan, a grey, and possibly a dark blue. He should not allow himself to get soft just because the shades of his suits are.
General Clark was being honest and Obama throws him to the wolves.
During the vietnam war I had a temp job preparing tax returns. One of my clients told me he was a bomber pilot home on leave, and I told him that if he went out to drop bombs on people again I hoped he would be shot down. He tried to get me fired, of course, but, surprisingly, I wasn't. I still feel the same way.
And what ever happened to that old Sparta thing about the only way you could honorably return home was "behind your shield or on top of it?" Don't get me wrong, I was glad to dodge the draft and try not to make too many judgements about those who went, but I haven't been able to understand why so many people who I think of as in the "victim" category are considered by others to be "heroes."
Instead of fishing him out of that lake in Hanoi after his warplane crashed, his Vietnamese rescuers should have just pushed his face back in the mud until he quit squirming. -- george w. bush 4:00 pm
_______________________________________________
Don't be silly. He's a politician.
They NEVER quit squirming.
Vietnam will not be an asset for the McCain run for prssident; it is a liability. Remember John Kerry and his "reporting for duty". It didn't play, and why? America LOST the war, and one thing Americans will not tolerate is a loser. McCain is toast!
One more thing. Can someone explain to me how murdering people in Southeast Asia qualifies one to be a hero?
Face facts fans: McCain napalmed peasants and was shot down and captured. War criminal in my mind but I don't run the government or the media.
Questions:
How many actual combat missions did McCain fly, or how many hours of combat flights did he fly? This is ALWAYS stated by anyone reviewing a military flyer's record, eg. go to any biography of George McGovern.
How many USA planes did he crash, in addition to the one in which he was shot down? Was it three or was it four?
During how long a period of service did these crashes occur?
Re: Forrestal fire, true McCain was hit by a rocket from plane lined up behind him for takeoff, but was that rocket ignited by McCain's hot rod tactic of deliberately flaming the plane behind him?
After the Forrestal fire, McCain was the only man reassigned to another carrier, and McCain's father was the admiral in charge of the carrier fleet. Why was he shifted away from Forrestal? Was there a coverup of his role in the fire?
I would sincerely like to hear the listen to an answer to these questions by those who know more than I do, perhaps someone from the McCain campaign will answer my questions.
Guess all them, er, "illegal enemy combatants" we're torturing in Gitmo are actually war heroes now qualified to run for leader of their respective countries, eh?
purvis ames July 2nd, 2008 5:01 pm
Way out of line? Why is it that any crime the United States commits is okay because of American exceptionalism. If it looks like a Nazi, walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi, and behaves like a Nazi… well. More than 2 million dead Vietnamese in our thwarted attempt to take over their country.
Way out of line? Call me a Nazi again and I'll show you what really way out of line is. I'm doing my best to be civil to a very despicable remark.
.................................................
FredWol July 2nd, 2008 5:47 pm
If you had said I hope you get killed to me then, I'd have done a lot more than try to get you fired. Do you think thats cute? I am so glad you didn't judge me while you dodged the draft. Too bad you ducked faster than I did. You could have gone and I could have tried hard "not to judge you"
..................................................
Are you folks this pathetically out of touch with reality? No matter how you felt about the war,
when was it decided you had the ability, the right or the competence to judge any of us. No matter how you felt about the war. You should have been there, you'd really have been against it.
..................................................
First I need to make clear I do not favor Amnesty John as President of the United States. As far as I'm concerned he has betrayed the American worker with his agenda for illegal immigration and support of NAFTA, then he follows GWB down the garden path in Iraq. Not my cup of tea.
But lies are lies no matter who says it or who its about and as near as I can determine now...
How you can think of someone that flies over a place where they shoot at you is a coward is beyond me.
I was reading earlier some of the posts above and I thought, are they right? "Traitorous broadcasts"? I couldn't find a one. The transcripts I found just said things like ..treated well, good food, good medical treatment, etc.
"Fellow prisoners say he was a traitor, responsible for the death of fellow prisoners, etc." I can't find one of these fellow prisoners with a name. No testimony on record , nada. I did find many testimonies by fellow prisoners, with names, that verified his record as a prisoner of war. I doubt I'd have the courage to refuse release as he did.
If anyone can refer me to specifics about a POW with a nanme that verifies these slurs or a broadcast that I can listen to where he divulges important military information or any thing else, please link me.
Till then I'll treat this kind of comment the same as the comment that Barack Obama is a Muslim or is unpatriotic, with the contempt these comments deserves.
If it seems that I take some of these comments personally, plase be assured I do. Very personally. I am so pleased to know that when I was wrestling with that NVA fellow and he had a handful of that stinking mud that he was trying to push down my throat, you guys were hoping he was sucessful. Kind of gives me a warm glow.
I'd have given anything if you guys could have been with me in the Que Son mountains to experience it with the rest of us.
TIME BITER: Right on! This ridiculous "cult of militarism" is what I term "Mars rules" and tends to falsely link America's glory to wars, most of them carried on against far weaker "adversaries."
I remember hearing the adage, "The enlightened warrior best understands the benefits of peace," and that's where McCain proves his bankrupcy. How he could have SEEN carnage up close and personal and STILL remain its champion demonstrates the degree to which his soul is impoverished, and his spirit learned nothing. He is a whore to the military industrial complex.
PURVIS AMES: Great post.
PROGRESSIVE 101: The disability question is interesting. Smart LEFT media, little that exists, might wish to "swift boat" that little fact, or factor!
THOMAS MORE: Your viewpoint is being narrowed by the fact you seek reasons to JUSTIFY a war of senseless violence and preconceived context, much like the one underway in Iraq. KILLING people on false justification is still KILLING people, and there is NOTHING heroic about it. It is NAZI like because the average soldier will use the rationale, "I was only following orders." As you may recall, that was not recognized as a bona fide defense at Geneva.
IF we meet our own projection in the after life, than those who have served in wars and think they are immune from any karmic implication(s) will have much to learn.
In the long count of time I suppose I have served as soldier, still carry that blood on my hands. Any who truly understand the TEACHINGS OF THE MASTERS comes to the realization it is NEVER OKAY to kill/murder. I ask myself if pure self-preservation instincts would take over if I ever found myself in a kill or be killed situation; but the premise can be addressed through its analogy to holistic healing. It's better to work with prevention before dire cause should arise. Prevention generally occurs in how we live. The draft that seized the young men of my generation forced the killing fields on all but those who had the balls to take off for Canada, or were able to fake mental incompetence (or had the luck of good draft numbers). It was not my destiny to be a male in this nexus... but any who volunteered, any who were naive enough to believe their government will be held to account. LOTS of good work, altruism, saving lives, helping others NOW can offset the karmic debt.
McCain went to Columbia - hostages are freed. What has Obama done?
Quality Time: those hostages were freed without anyone getting hurt, not them, not their guards, not their liberators. Because McCain showed up? Just how gullible are you??
None of us may ever know for sure what really went on in the planes McCain flew, or in the POW camp he was held in. What strikes me as very similar to Bush is his temper whenever certain aspects of his record are challenged. It looks like the temper tantrum of an adolescent caught in a lie by his parents. At some level he knows that he did his first wife wrong, and that series of events is a matter of record. At some level he knows that he has been exploiting a whitewashed version of his war record for decades to further his career - and that exploitation is easy to prove without going into possible treason or preferential treatment in Vietnam. At some level he knows that he is complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of iraqis and the death and maiming of thousands of Americans through his support of the neocon invasion of Iraq, and that complicity is easy to prove by simply looking at his voting record. My point is this: it should not be necessary to rely on shifty sources or possible conspiracies in order to state plainly that McCain is a horrible choice for President. I.F. Stone explained very clearly something which the press has long forgotten, and the left would do well to remember: it's always better to rely on indisputable matters of public record, sources available to everyone, because even if some stories are un-reportable this way, it is both more democratic and more reliable. If it's our super-secret special sources against theirs, they win. If it is everyone's publically held information used to demonstrate important truths of policy and responsibility for events, the progressive cause is much better served.
Thomas More: "If you had said I hope you get killed to me then, I'd have done a lot more than try to get you fired. Do you think thats cute? I am so glad you didn't judge me while you dodged the draft. Too bad you ducked faster than I did. You could have gone and I could have tried hard "not to judge you""
A lot cuter than preparing a tax return for a fucking war criminal. But criminals and the people who were too ignorant at the time to be responsible for their actions get a chance to repent. So if you did, great.
Dodging the draft made a lot more sense to me than investing a lot of time and effort into being a conscientious objector and going to jail or Canada. Still would, but I'm kind of lazy.
McCain is regarded as a hero for having failed in his duty to bomb innocent civilians...he was shot down and captured by them and thrown into prison...if he'd bombed americans, he would have been torn apart on being captured...if a mafia hit man failed at his task of murdering the enemy, he would be at the bottom of a river, wearing cement shoes...this guy has somehow parlayed his failure into heroism...
so, every murderer from the sky who succeeded and completing the misson without being captured, should be a double hero?
no wonder we are ruled by idiots.
fs
thomas more writes: i am pleased to know that when i was wrestling with that NVA fellow and he had a handful of that stinking mud that he was trying to push down my throat, you guys were hoping he was successful.
u know, i agree with u that calling mcCain a coward is just plain stupid. and calling 18 to 24 yr. old draftees war criminals is stupid too. but, when u were wrestling that NVA fellow, i wouldn't have been cheering for u. as an american, i wish u two would have wrestled yourselves into unconsciousness and survived. if i was an observer from outer space, i would have seen u as invading his land and i would have felt justice to be on his side. u were young and i'm sure u thought "serving" your country was the right thing to do. hey, it's all very sad. and i can't blame u for getting pissed about some of the comments here.