Last week, some progressives expressed betrayal at Barack Obama's support for a "compromised" FISA bill. While FISA's telecom immunity provision is not a front burner issue for many, it is a hot button issue among the netroots, a community that has strongly backed Obama. Meanwhile, recent stories in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times and other traditional media describe Obama as moving to "the center," further alarming some on the left. This early progressive criticism of Obama comes amidst celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the New Deal, created by our best and most progressive president, Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt is often held up as a model for Obama, but some on the left apparently do not realize that FDR was a pragmatist who made deals with the proverbial devil--in his case, Southern segregationists--to get his progressive economic plans enacted. Those expecting Obama to follow a consistently left-wing agenda misunderstand both the man and the nature of U.S. politics.
Roosevelt the Pragmatist
My grandmother loved Franklin Delano Roosevelt and seemed to own books about every key member of his Administration. So I grew up a Roosevelt fan, and believe he not only was our nation's last progressive president, but that he created a model for using a progressive grassroots base to move willing presidents to the left.
Roosevelt is an icon on the U.S. left, as again became clear as the 75th anniversary of the New Deal was celebrated this year. And while Republicans have successfully rolled back many of the gains of the 1960's and 1970's, they have consistently failed to reverse the key building blocks of Roosevelt's New Deal.
But some facts about Roosevelt rarely discussed in history classes include his alliance with the racist Southern Democratic Senators and Congressmembers who often controlled key committees. Many of these politicians backed FDR's economic populism, but would have vetoed such an agenda had Roosevelt demanded that the Constitution be enforced to protect the civil rights of African-Americans.
So while African-Americans in the South were denied voting rights, and subjected to overt discrimination and even lynchings, the Roosevelt Administration largely looked the other way. And while some on the black left publicly criticized Roosevelt's perceived hypocrisy--such as enacting a federal minimum wage law that exempted domestic workers and other heavily African-American jobs--the black community in the North overwhelming voted for FDR in every election.
Nor did Roosevelt's alliance with racist Democrats cause the largely white American Communist Party to attack the President. These activists understood the political realities, and, rather than shun Roosevelt for not aggressively promoting racial justice, worked hard to enact his progressive social and economic agenda. The left even stayed loyal to Roosevelt through his Executive Order sending Japanese-American citizens to internment camps, and his sending troops to overthrow a democratic government in Nicaragua.
Today's Congressional Reality
Obama's FISA stance appears designed to both avoid giving McCain a campaign issue and to reassure moderate Democrats that he understands their concerns and seeks to be their ally. It is the type of political calculation that he believes will facilitate passage of Obama's more progressive agenda next year.
With tens of millions of voters in tough economic times, Obama likely did not see a fight against FISA as a priority. While many see the FISA bill as a complete capitulation to an unpopular President, opinions differ on the actual impact of granting telecom immunity.
But some progressives concern over both FISA and other Obama reflects the more pragmatic nature of the Democratic nominee.
Many activists believe that if progressives simply "stand firm," that they can enact a left legislative agenda without making "deals" with more moderate politicians.
I recall hearing an interview in the late 1990's where Nation columnist Alexander Cockburn was criticizing environmental groups for making deals. Asked what they should do instead, Cockburn bellowed, "stand firm"! How "standing firm" would get key legislation passed when the votes were lacking was never made clear, and Cockburn was not asked to expand upon his analysis.
This notion of avoid political compromise, so prevalent around comprehensive immigration reform legislation, proposed universal health care measures, and Congressional efforts to limit the Iraq War, is alien to the mindset that brought the still revered New Deal.
Just imagine what some of today's activists would say about a minimum wage bill that excluded several categories of workers, typically in jobs held by racial minorities. They would insist that nobody should back such a bill, and that it was better to fail so we could try to pass a stronger bill in the future.
That's what happened to some health care reform efforts, some of which progressives have opposed due to their not implementing "single payer." Although there is no prospect of Congress voting to go directly from our current system to single-payer, and enacting any meaningful universal health care reform will involve "deals" with insurance companies and political moderates, many activists oppose anything short of an ideal yet politically impossible, single payer plan.
That's why one can almost guarantee some left anger with President Obama next year over his health care plan. Obama, like Roosevelt, is a pragmatist, and does not believe the perfect should be the enemy of the good.
Clinton vs. Roosevelt
Some have interpreted Obama's election campaign move to the center as creeping "Clintonism." But there is an important difference between Clinton, who was never a progressive and built his career attacking the left via the DLC, and Roosevelt, who consistently sought to achieve the most progressive legislation possible.
Barack Obama is in the Roosevelt camp. He is more of an incrementalist than FDR because the political space for more radical change has narrowed, but, unlike Clinton, he wants to build, not undermine, the progressive base.
Obama seeks to build a "working political majority" because he knows, unlike far too many activists, that creating change involves more than "standing firm" on principles. Rather, it means building the political base to support real change, and getting legislation through a Congress that progressives do not control.
The netroots outrage against Obama's FISA stance sends an important message to the candidate that progressives will not be taken for granted. But let's keep the Roosevelt model in mind before linking Obama's pragmatism to a lack of commitment to progressive change.
Randy Shaw is the editor and publisher of Beyond Chron, an alternative online daily newspaper, with whose permission this article is republished.
© 2008 California Progress Report
Delicious
Digg
StumbleUpon
Newsvine
Facebook
Google
Yahoo
Technorati
101 Comments so far
Show AllThomas More:
Check out the Wikipedia discussion of the spitting on the vets alleged incidents.
The media normally asks for names from eye-witnesses. The fact that no specific incidents can be recalled, for the most part, suggests that even if spitting incidents happened, they weren't widespread.
Another point I am making is that the antiwar movement of the time wasn't personal against the troops because there was a general draft going on at the time, meaning that even people who didn't want to be in the Vietnam war had to participate (or flee). Moreover, it's a historical fact that U.S. soldiers were at the verge of open revolt against their commanders. It's also true that there were gung-ho soldiers in Vietnam, and careerists like Colin Powell who covered up for the massacres committed by his superior officers.
By the way, the Wikipedia entry mentions the yellow ribbon campaign. I remember first seeing them pop up when George HW Bush was attacking fleeing Iraqi troops that had invaded Kuwait. It was definitely a propaganda campaign. I remember a woman in dark sunglasses passing them out at an antiwar rally. By the time of the attack on Iraq and Bush II, yellow ribbon stickers were being mass produced for cars.
It's supposed to be illegal for the U.S. to conduct propaganda against its own citizens, but there are instances where it has done so.
In the case of the spitting, it's just created by popular fiction like Rambo. That's clear. The story makes people feel good when a shameful thing like the Vietnam war is brought up. It's called an "emotionally potent oversimplification" and people fall for these things all of the time - especially when confronted by something that challenges their assumptions.
Today, you can't find stories that people are spitting on returning Iraq/Afghanistan vets, even though we now have an all-volunteer army. Most of the Iraq troops themselves, according to a poll, want out of Iraq. The vets I've spoken with seem a little confused. Sometimes they say, "We were fighting for your freedom to protest." Clearly, they've been lied to, but they just know enough to follow orders. We hope that they will join the antiwar movement, and quite a lot have done so. As in the Vietnam war, there is no hatred for returning soldiers, but the antiwar movement doesn't consider them heros either - they're just people who've been lied to. Supporting them means bringing them home.
We need to get beyond Obama. So many progressives claimed Clinton would move left towards the center once in office and that we need to be realistic. Clinton opened the door to many of the social problems we face today. I think Americans would vote for someone willing to speak the truth and that Obama has missed an chance to use his popularity to address the real issues facing our future like the crisis in food, mass foreclosures, the energy crisis and the global failure of the economy.
I was wiretapped (and still am wiretapped) without a warrant. His vote on FISA can't be ignored as "just an evil to win the election." It provides additional tools to silence democratic change. His June 4th speech supporting Israel, his economic policies as well as the FISA vote and the idea that "we all have to vote for Obama" even if we don't agree with his policies because he's the democrat is exactly the thinking that has given us the current crisis we face today. We can only hope that his campaign wakes up and starts to develop a plan to save our world from future that looks like Road Warrior. But because I don't think reality has made its way to the Obama campaign it will be up to us to start building solutions.
Lets stop focusing on the election and get busy organizing local grassroots projects with the goal of making sure our communities have water, food, energy and shelter. We are facing a global crisis and the U.S. election is a distraction. I urge everyone to learn how to grow food. figure out how to make sure you have fresh water. Build strong relationships with your community so you can work together to provide all the things you need to survive.
As one of the people who organized the food relief effort to the survivors of Katrina I have been lucky to see first hand the future and I urge everyone to stop what ever they are doing and start making sure you have food and the basic things you need to live. If Obama was the change we need he would be asking us to prepare for the global crisis.
It's not just FISA,
It's Iraq, Blackwater, faith based welfare, Nafta/Cafta et al among other things
I'm really tired of these articles that compare Obama, who has yet done nothing of importance, to our greatest social and political leaders. It's ridiculous.
Thoughts_Into_Action July 2nd, 2008 2:09 am
You are completely wrong. Not made up at all.
"Many of the protest actions involved things like burning draft cards, escaping to Canada and the Winter Soldier event when veterans cast off their medals and testified about participating in mass murders."
True, some deserted to Canada and most of us didn't blame them. Burning draft cards was before you were drafted, it didn't mean you didn't serve. Not that many cast off their medals, but some did. How many testified about the "mass murders"? Not many.
The rewriting of history is from some of the left back then. They simply did a few things they were ashamed of in retrospect, but in the main, they got us out of there. And thats the only thing thats important.
RichM: The only sourcing I've read about for the stories about protesters spitting on returning Vietnam vets is the Rambo movies.
The story was made up.
If you watch the documetary, "Sir, No Sir," it's quite clear that U.S. soldiers during the Vietnam war had their own organized internal opposition to the war. It wasn't an all-volunteer army back then but mostly drafted civilians. Many of the protest actions involved things like burning draft cards, escaping to Canada and the Winter Soldier event when veterans cast off their medals and testified about participating in mass murders.
The purpose of the the "spitting on vets" story is just to rewrite history. Even the top Pentagon brass were worried about the revolt of U.S. soldiers, who were doing things like fragging their officers. Naw, the protesters and vets, for the most part, were one. You can find gung-ho Yahoos (Rambos or John McCains) anywhere, but they were the exception in that senseless war.
~Oncemanc~ ____ Excellent, well put. The flip side of the coin.
Tailcap
Re "Your argument pulverized". I'll assume that this was an ungrammatical headline-style comment rather than a compliment to my argument. If you really believe you pulverized my argument, just keep on believing, but your confidence is misplaced, and here's why.
There are lots of "ifs" about Florida 2000. Yes, many Democrats sat home and could have changed the result (and many probably regret it to this day). Yes there was voter suppression. Yes there was disenfranchisement. Yes the ballots were flawed. Yes the count was fraudulent. Yes the partisan Supreme Court gave Bush the election. Yes other third-party candidates received enough votes in Florida to have cost Al Gore the election. At first I too made the excuse that the Nader votes didn't hand Florida to Bush, but I soon understood that this didn't hold water because had ANY ONE of several factors been different, the outcome in Florida would have been different.
Progressives who won't admit that voting for Nader or abstaining on principle in a closely contested state like Florida gave Bush the election should consider this analogy. An overloaded train with faulty brakes is running out of control towards another train on the same track. As an onlooker, you have no control over loading or brake maintenance. However, you are in a position to throw a switch that will divert the runaway train onto another track that looks like it may be clear, not necessarily guaranteeing a safe outcome but at least avoiding the immediate disaster of a collision. Of course you wouldn't hesitate to throw the switch. If you had let the train stay on its original track, you could have protested all you want that you were not at fault, and that the overloading and the poor brakes, beyond your control, were to blame - but you would have been dishonest. Either proper loading or well-maintained brakes could have averted a disaster, but the culpability of others does not absolve you. You would have consciously avoided taking responsibility for the one and only thing that you could control, whether you admit it or not.
That exactly illustrates why progressives who voted for Nader or abstained in Florida 2000 don't deserve to get off the hook. You could have made the difference. If you can't admit a mistake, fine; just don't make the same mistake again. If McCain wins, you will be out in the cold for another 4 years, you'll see him set the Supreme Court in concrete for a couple of generations at least, and I hope that then you'll be satisfied. If Obama wins and brings plenty more Democrats into Congress, the door will be open for you to influence our government towards progressive policies. A Democratic sweep would be only a beginning, so use your intellect, look beyond your noses, accept responsibility for your actions, and make sure a Democratic administration keeps hearing from you AFTER the election.
Conservatives quietly worked their butts off over decades, often behind the scenes, to steer the Republican Party in their direction. They knew it was a better way to further their goals than going for a third party. Belatedly, progressives are learning the same with regard to the Democrats; unfortunately there remain too many dinosaurs who naively believe, against all previous experience, that voting for a Nader type will bring instant gratification.
Those who have stopped supporting Obama are unrealistic purists unwilling to live in the real word of politics which demands compromise (except for Republicans). Here they are, abandoning Obama just because he pragmatically votes with the Republicans on FISA. Okay, it's just the Constitution.
Oh, and they're also sore because his speech to AIPAC sold the Palestinians down the river and essentially green-lighted an attack on Iran, which may well lead to World War III. But, you know, in the real world politicians have to compromise, don't they?
Oh, and he said he was only kidding about being against NAFTA, but you know, politicians have to compromise.
Oh, and he told the Miami Cuban mafiosi that he'll maintain the embargo against Cuba, and he won't close the School of the Americas but you know--if you're a progressive, you have to be realistic--you have to support people who call themselves Democrats even if there's no difference between their policies and their opponents', even if they promise you absolutely nothing. We have to be realistic--we could not expect anything to go our way when Congress was dominated by Republicans--and then when the Democrats accidentally won it back in '06, we couldn't expect anything because there were still some Republicans--and THEY don't have to compromise at all. THEY get all their desires handed to them on a silver platter (except the social stuff like gay marriage and abortion they don't really care about anyway) no matter which party has the White House and either or both Houses.
Someone above said progressives have to be realistic in these times, which are so terrible for us. Excuse me, I thought this was a time when the Republican brand was in the gutter, when no one wants to be seen with Bush? But I guess--to be REALISTIC--until we have some kind of revolution, all times are bad for progressives because corporations own this government lock stock and barrel, and the most we can hope for from any politician is sweet words during the primary season. And that's over now, boys and girls, so buckle down and wait four long, hard years for---but meanwhile, we're passing the point of no return on climate change. Scientists are screaming, but President Harken, Vice President Halliburton and Sec'y of State Chevron block any response at all. Meanwhile, oil depletion is setting in, and the economy is sinking. This can only get worse--unless we invested NOW in renewable energy, but that would take intelligent leadership not controlled by oil and coal companies...which only a silly progressive could dream of. So forget about what happens after those four years--we may see progressive policies in our separate communities, after the chaos that will ensue because the last chance to get desperately needed policy change sank under the waves in the election of '08. But we won't see a progressive USA.
Oh, and he's now hinting that he was only kidding about being against NAFTA. But we can't hold that against him, unless we're just too inflexible for the real world.
We can't get mad about his environmental stance, which hasn't changed--he was for "clean coal" from the start.
I was just pulling your chain a little ~Tailcap~. Actually you made some excellent points. But there is always two sides to a coin.
And yes I supported Hillary over Obama, still do, so did 18 million plus other voters, a bit more than supported Obama. And ~HUCK~ I'd prefer you did ignore me, _____ we don't get along real well.
Good point poopdeck, I agree!
Tailcap, I am giving you a knowing nod.
The only truly progressive member of the FDR administration was Eleanor.
Good Advice, he supported Hillary. 543, that my friend is a joke.
tailcap, people like Kem will always need someone else to blame when they don't get their way. My advice is to ignore the Cat. By the way, who says the 543 were Democrats?
Oh, yea, that's right, the Supreme Court didn't have anything to do with it, neither did the 200,000 Democrats that voted for Bush. The culprits are the 543 Democrats that voted for Nader, I forgot. Good point KEM PATRICK!
Good Democrats! Go Obama!
I understand ~TAILCAP~ If Nader wasn't on the ballot in Florida and copped 17,000 votes, Gore would have won. I wasn't arguing with you.
Exactly, you just hit the nail squarely on the head.
Compromise is sticking to your ideals while recognizing the historical realities that limit the kind of progress we ultimately desire.
Capitulating is what some democrats do when they vote for FISA or when they continue to fund the illegal war on Iraq. (Other democrats don't capitualte and actually believe in this kind of rubbish)
leftk July 1st, 2008 3:50 pm
What is the difference between compromise and capitulation? Okay I'll answer it, in a compromise both sides give something up. What have the Republicans given up the last good number years? Exactly, that's capitulation.
I think Shaw makes an interesting point here in that activists have become perfectionists and are not even interested in compromise. Not compromising is poor politics. Even the right-wingers have compromised to get their policies enacted.
Right now everything is lose-lose for progressives. Wouldn't a win-lose situation be an improvement? If you disagree--fine but it might make you a revolutionary socialist. Which, I'm not completely opposed to. But if your a reformist you need to be pragmatic in making changes.
Compromise takes strength and conviction and is fundamentally opposed to cowardice. Compromise takes conviction and strength because one who compromises knows what s/he believes and can then set limits. But it is pure cowardice when democrats let corporations invade individuals privacy and allowing the Federal government to fund faith-based initiatives.
In 2000 Gore not only appeared to be someone who would compromise, but someone who would tacitly support the right wing agenda through his political cowardice. Now Obama appears to be doing the same thing. This is not compromise-- this is Clintonian neo-liberalism. We don't need to compromise our vote for that.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/07/01/obama_to_expand_bu...
KEM PATRICK
That's not what I'm saying at all, just the opposite. Democrats lost because they rolled over and not one single Democratic Senator could be found to sign on to an investigation of the matter. House members tried in vain. Nader is not to blame, the Democrats are. They refused to investigate the fraud in Florida. Nobody seems to blame the Supreme Court.
Twelve percent of Florida Democrats (over 200,000) voted for Republican George Bush" Gore lost by 543.
Gore couldn't even win his own state of Tennessee which would have made Nader irrelevant because he would have had enough electoral votes to win.
Democrats love to blame Nader. Bull.
I agree with you ~TAILCAP~ If Nader had not been on the ballot, Gore would have won.
HI ~JC~. ~FAITH~, ~HOPE~ and ~CHANGE~ are all in Obama's camp. So are the wealthy Neo-Cons who rule the country.
Did FDR ever get up and talk about Faith? Who is this Faith and what is she doing in my government?
Is that the best argument you have to offer? Weak!
For those of you who are too pure to support Obama and were too pure to support Gore and Kerry: Thanks for 8 years of George W. Bush!
oncemanc July 1st, 2008 10:48 am
Your argument pulverized.
"Democrats for Bush, Democrats for nobody"
"Twelve percent of Florida Democrats (over 200,000) voted for Republican George Bush"
-San Francisco Chronicle, Nov. 9, 2000
Even if none of the factors mentioned above had happened, the votes of Florida voters themselves show that Ralph Nader was not responsible for George W. Bush's presidency. If one percent of these Democrats had stuck with their own candidate, Al Gore would easily have won Florida and become president. In addition, half of all registered Democrats did not even bother going to the polls and voting.
The Final Count
According to the official 2001 Statistics of the Presidential and Congressional Election of November 7, 2000, George W. Bush beat Al Gore in Florida by 543 votes. It is noteworthy that every third-party candidate received enough votes in Florida to have cost Al Gore the election.
Conclusion
Green Party Presidential Candidate Ralph Nader did not work for the Florida Secretary of State, the Palm Beach County Election Commission, the Al Gore campaign committee, or the United States Supreme Court. Yet, he has become a scapegoat among many Democrats for Al Gore's loss of the 2000 election, and, beyond the election, the person to blame for the resulting policies of George Bush. These diehard Democrats are averse to looking at the failings of their candidate, and they are not blaming voters for failing to vote at all. Instead, they are upset that Ralph Nader did not acquiesce to dropping out of the race as many urged him to do. As a side note, if Al Gore had won his home state of Tennessee, he would have had the necessary Electoral College votes to have won the election and the Florida results would have been irrelevant.
oncemanc July 1st, 2008 10:48 am
http://www.cagreens.org/alameda/city/0803myth/myth.html
Questioning the Myth
George Bush beat Al Gore by only 543 votes in Florida. Gore needed Florida's electoral votes in order to win the presidency. He did not get them. Gore's diehard Democratic Party supporters have declared Green Party presidential candidate Ralph Nader the reason their candidate lost the 2000 presidential election, even though numerous other factors in the climactic Florida vote-counting drama affected the outcome. Instead of focusing solely on the votes Ralph Nader took from Al Gore, a balanced analysis would also take into account the following: (1) voters who were disenfranchised; (2) voting systems and procedures that failed; (3) the party-line United States Supreme Court vote declaring George W. Bush the winner; and (4) Democrats who voted for Bush or not at all.
Disenfranchised By Design?
The Florida Secretary of State's Office hired a private firm known as Database Technologies, Inc. (now ChoicePoint Corporation) to identify convicted felons and remove them from Florida's voting rolls. Prior to the election, 94,000 voters were removed (Kelly, 2002). This is legal if someone has been convicted of a felony, but as it turns out, 97 percent were innocent and should not have been removed. "The list was full of mistakes mainly because of the criteria [the database company] used. It compared its list of felons with the Florida voting rolls by looking for a rough match between the names and dates of birth. Thus a Christine Smith could have been disqualified if there had been a Christopher Smith of the same age with a felony record somewhere in the US. [the database company] also used race as a matching criterion, skewing the impact of the errors even more against black voters" (Borger & Palast, 2001). As The Nation magazine reported, "immediately after the November 7, 2000 election, minority voters who had never committed crimes complained of having had their names removed from voting rolls in a purge of 'ex-felons,' of being denied translation services required by law, … and of harassment by poll workers and law-enforcement officials." The list of voters denied the right to vote was overwhelmingly Democratic and half were minorities (Kelly, 2002). Al Gore neither protested the disenfranchisement nor supported these voters' lawsuit to regain their vote.
Speaking of Obama sounding more like a Republican every day, does everyone here know what Obama said yesterday, in a "patriotic" (ie, pre 4th of July) speech?
- He specifically chastized MoveOn.org for their "General Betray-us" ad last fall. (Does everyone recall the Dem-led Congress doing much the same thing, passing a resolution condemning MoveOn for that ad?) I'm no fan of MoveOn, because they're basically just an appendage of the Dem Party. But it's part of Obama's lurch to the right, that he's making a point of scolding his own base. He's showing his fangs to the allegedly progressive wing of the Dem Party (which of course is not really particularly progressive, but that's not the point here).
- He chastized Wesley Clark, for having said over the weekend that McCain's military service does not automatically qualify him to be president. Obama took McCain's side in this contretemps.
- He specifically scolded the 1960's counterculture & the anti-Vietnam War movement, for having "treated our returning soldiers with disrespect" when they came home from Vietnam.
I'm under the impression that stories about returning Vietnam vets being "spat upon" by antiwar protestors are mostly urban legend. We have some Vietnam vets who post here at CD, among them Thomas More. I'd be interested to hear from them what they know about the veracity of these stories.
In any case, for Obama to be scolding antiwar protestors, without in any way examining the unbelievable murderousness & criminality of the US war in Vietnam -- this is a very ominous sign, to put it mildly.
Bring on Colin Powell. He'll sort it all out for us.
Thought into action had this to say, and it certainly hits the mark:
"I love Shaw's sophistry about Bill Clinton. Unlike what Shaw thinks, Clinton campaigned on the left but governed from the right. That's a perfect description of Obama's candidacy until he clinched the nomination (Obama is now openly on the right wing of the political spectrum). I fully expect Obama to govern from the right. He's quite in the Clinton mold."
Bill Clinton did nothing on leadership on Climate Change other than pay lip service to the issue. Clinton kept the School of the Americas open despite numerous appeals by a coalition of progressive organization to close it. Clinton threw thousands of people off of welfare earning less the 10K per year commenting that "welfare is a second chance not a way of life." And despite not creating meaningful employment opportunities for inner city blacks.
Obama has demonstrated that he is moving to the right of center with his endorsement of the FISA legislation. He has shown his cozyness with corporate CEO like Rick Wagner and Clinton recycles like Mad Albright. But no where has he been seen with progressive voices like Nader, Kucinich, McKibben, to name a few. Everything he is doing is an insult to any true progressive.
FDR vs. Obama
FDR had to appease a huge, conscious, organized progressive movement. Obama does not.
During FDR's time the Consitution was pretty much intact. Now it is not.
FDR was constantly hectored to do the right thing by his wonderful wife. Michelle Obama is an unknown.
FDR was dealing with severe economic depression within a fairly healthy worldwide ecosystem. Obama is looking at global collapse of our natural infrastructure.
In FDR's times, capitalists and CEO's were richer than the average person by a factor of about 10 or 20. Now they are richer by a factor of about gezillion even when their companies are unproductive.
In FDR's times US capitalist wealth was distributed in enterprises across the nation. Now it is concentrated in huge multi-nationals that have tentacles all over the world and have no loyalty to the US or its people.
FDR had to mobilize the country to respond to a world war started by Hitler et al. Now we are the ones starting the wars, invading and occupying and bombing innocent countries at will.
I could continue, but the point is that our times are more deeply disturbing, dangerous and dysfunctional than FDR's time. And our nation's policies responsible for a lot of the trouble. Therefore we need some standards and backbone in our legislative and executive branches.
How that is to be accomplished - I have no one answer, just that it is going to take a lot of work of a totally new kind.
RichM,
You and I have more in common than you think; for example, that Clinton was to the right of Nixon, and that the Congressional Dems (only in control of the House for 2 years and barely in control of the Senate even now) have failed to stand up sufficiently to Bush. With a Democrat in the White House and healthy majorities in both houses, THEN you can hold the Dems accountable if they don't deliver.
Conservatives, thinking strategically for decades, managed to get most of their agenda enacted by influencing the Republican party, and it's up to progressives to play catch-up instead of just ranting on the sidelines. I have nothing against third party voters; I was one in 2000, but I voted strategically – no way would I have been foolish enough to vote for Nader if I had lived in Florida or any other closely contested state. However, I do have plenty against progressives who consider themselves so pure that they demand some illusory purity in their candidates. By voting third-party, or abstaining, in closely contested states they end up with nothing at all instead of half a loaf they could have had with the election of a Democrat. Parties evolve and, whether you like it or not, that takes time.
Come to think of it, "waiting for some progressive version of the Rapture" was an even more apt metaphor than I realized. Not only are you waiting for the Rapture but, like the end-times fanatics, you are quite willing to accept (by helping Republicans keep office) the chaos which will supposedly lead up to it. Dream on, or grow up.
Rich M noted the following:
"1) Since WWII, both parties have collaborated on a course that shows tremendous underlying continuity, regardless of which party is in control. While Bush Jr was exceptionally bad, Gore would have been about like Bill Clinton, whose admin was remarkably continuous with those of Bush Sr & Reagan. All were corporatist/militarists who pursued policies of empire.
2) There is no solid evidence at all that Obama would do anything "to advance a progressive agenda." He talks more like a Republican every day. The evidence doesn't suggest that he's in any way to the left of Bill Clinton, who in turn was to the right of Nixon.
3) We weren't "screwed by a Republican administration." We were screwed by the combination of a Repub administration and a Democratic Congress that never even tried to stand up to it. (And don't forget, YOU'RE the guy who claims, "…What matters is how Congress modifies the President's proposals by the time he gets to sign them into law.")
Nicely summarized Rich. I especially concur with this, "There is no solid evidence at all that Obama would do anything "to advance a progressive agenda." In fact, there is a great deal of evidence that he is pursuing an agenda inimical to a "progressive agenda." Perhaps the most egregious policy agenda he advocates on behalf of is Nuclear and Bio Fuels: both harmful to the Earth. Obama's environmental plan is totally bankrupt and driven by special interests. I invite anyone to research both of these subjects to learn of the harm both will cause in the long and short term. Bio fuels contribute to diminished air quality, but more importantly, they reduce airable land for food production. As more land transitions for higher crop yeilds for bio fuels, food prices will soar and world wide starvation increase. Anyone pumping Obama as an environmentalist is living in a Dream World. Obama's plan is written by special interests and driven by the cold hard cash.
davejonez,
"with the hardliner approach some of you are taking.."
Who are the hardliners?
Merci..
PROGRESS.....
Movement, as toward a goal; advance.
with the hardliner approach some of you are taking, you're just ensuring that none of our ideals are advanced.
Thankyou....
Those who give his/her vote to a known liar do not deserve to have that vote, and deserve to be enslaved by liars.
If Mr. Shaw's argument were true, we'd expect to see Republicans compromising. Instead, Republicans have been very successful by not compromising and staying faithful to their base of voters. They've won election after election in that very way.
What did Obama gain by voting to let the telecom companies "off the hook" for their clearly illegal actions? If there's an answer, Mr. Shaw can't or won't articulate it. I think he said something like Americans were more interested in economics. Can't American be interested in justice and economics too? What compromise are we speaking of here? I want to know what I'm giving away for free, especially when it's my Constitutional rights at stake.
How does Mr. Shaw know that Obama really has progressive interests at heart? You wouldn't know that by Obama's voting record, nor his recent statments after clinching the nomination.
Using Mr. Shaw's style of thinking, you could argue that George Bush is really a progressive, but he has just had to compromise with the DLC in the Democratic Party all of this time.
I love Shaw's sophistry about Bill Clinton. Unlike what Shaw thinks, Clinton campaigned on the left but governed from the right. That's a perfect description of Obama's candidacy until he clinched the nomination (Obama is now openly on the right wing of the political spectrum). I fully expect Obama to govern from the right. He's quite in the Clinton mold.
I agree with posters above that Shaw has missed the nuances in describing FDR (that "even FDR wasn't FDR" the image). Actually, FDR did what he did to avoid open rebellion, I think.
Compromise is what has brought us to this moment in time, Mr. Shaw, and you have the gall to suggest that progressives should not turn their back on compromise. Well, I ask, Mr. Shaw, how much more compromise would you care to have?
Perhaps, Mr. Shaw, you like to have another compromise on vote counting that handed dubya the WH in 2000. Or, how about, by compromise, do you mean, Mr. Shaw, more compromise by starting another war with Iran, or do you mean, Mr. Shaw, more compromise on allowing polluters to pollute this world until all the land, water, and air become toxic, or do you mean, Mr. Shaw, more compromise by allowing the rich to get richer, by taking further advantage of the working class, the sick, the elderly, college students, children?
You want to talk about FISA, Mr, Shaw, fine let's talk about FISA. Name one, just one, one issue where FISA as it stood compromised security? And, tell me, Mr. Shaw, do you think that those that wrote the 4th amendment had it any easier with the war they fought against the King of England, here, on US soil? While the US Constitution may have compromised in some manner, it left no open no compromise with the words "shall not be violated".
No, Mr. Shaw, sorry, but take your compromise and shove it! If I wanted mediocrity, I would become a donkey or elephant. No, thanks.
The problem with this White House bunch of arrogant fascist neocon republicans and their moderate Democrat collaborators is they never outgrow their ignorant desire for more. And, every time there is compromise with them, more isn't enough!
"He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have."
-- Socrates
The mainstream center is a mythical body of water.
oncemanc June 30th, 2008 10:34 pm makes his case for why not to vote for Democrats:
"politically speaking, it can happen to you again, and again, and again. No amount of the wishful thinking, hissy fits, tantrums and downright rage that pervade many of the previous posts will help your cause one iota."
Ronald White July 1st, 2008 12:41 am
Canada as the Great White Hope:
On March 25, 2003, during the "shock and awe" bombardment of Iraq, then US Ambassador to Canada Paul Cellucci admitted that "… ironically, Canadian naval vessels, aircraft and personnel... will supply more support to this war in Iraq indirectly... than most of those 46 countries that are fully supporting our efforts there."
the left is the left's own worst enemy....
I support many progressive ideals, but some of you poster's have me feeling moderate even when I'm not....
your inability to support a candidate who compromises is astounding, it is also extremely counterproductive to the causes we believe in.
Obama will never be "progressive" enough for some of you republican facilitators/enablers.
The balance of the supreme court is at stake this year, put aside your qualms and get behind the only major candidate who supports reproductive rights.
The article is sheer flackery. The comparisons are false. Obama pretended to be Left, now he really is a Center-Right. Roosevelt really was Center Right when elected, and history forced him to use various socialist strategies to save capitalism in the US. Obama is a spinner and a triangulator. That's how he beat Clinton. He out Clintoned Hillary Clinton.
"but there's no quicker way to DEFEAT it than by trying to pass it all at once (as Dennis proposed) while eliminating all private insurers."
Oh really , then Americans generally must have difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time . In the province of Saskatchewan ( northern border of North Dakota )a guy like Dennis Kucinich (Tommy Douglas ), premier , rammed through the Sask legislature a similar health-care bill to that of Bernie Sanders' and Dennis Kucinich. This happened over fifty years ago and from the initial plunge by Sask , all ten provinces and the Federal gov't , like lemmings followed within a year . We like a "decider" to get us off our asses when it's good for us .
See up here , we didn't piss around trying to cushion the fall of the blue crosses , the blue shields , the blue swords...one day they were and the next they weren't . Doctors , nurses , hospitals... were completely funded by provincial taxes and now federal and provincial taxes with a small surcharge ($100 per month) and no one is denied . Watch Sicko .
A similar abrupt transition has been the hallmark of every socialist country in Europe , Finland , Holland , England ...as regards to health-care . I know Americans gag on the word socialism but suck it up and get over the fact that the average Finn is better off than the average American . Look at any parameters , paid-holidays , GDP , infant-mortality , literacy ...TAXES ARE HIGH
Canadians , Europeans , even Cubans have told you how to do it but with exceptions like you mentioned , your polititians are too stupid , too arrogant and too whoreish to even try. Your citizens would cheer them if they tried but they're asleep .
Your society will become third-world like Haiti before you figure that you don't have to re-invent the wheel when it comes to efficient , inexpensive , humane healthcare .
oncemanc (10:34 pm) -
I'm amused by how frequently Dem Party apologists (like oncemanc) adopt a jeering & contemptuous tone, in arguing with those to their left. Oncemanc, for example, puts the word "principled" in quotes, to show his contempt for those of us who refuse the bankruptcy of lesser-evilism. He jeers that 3rd party voters are "waiting for some progressive version of the Rapture." He accuses 3rd party voters of "wishful thinking, hissy fits, tantrums" etc etc. He has no respect for anyone who's determined to stop caving in to the criminal Democratic Collaborator Party.
Where does any Dem Party apologist get off jeering at 3rd party voters? Do they imagine that their arguments are so unassailable, that they're in some position to jeer at those who reach different conclusions than they do?
Let's see how great oncemanc's arguments really are. Basically, here's all he's got:
1) 'If you really believe there is no difference between R's and D's, ask yourselves whether the disastrous course of our nation...would have been followed under President Gore'
2) 'Obama as President ... would do far more to advance a progressive agenda than any number "principled" votes that Nader ...could realistically expect.'
3) 'How many more times do you want to get screwed by a Republican administration?'
That's it. That's his "great argument." I've heard every one of these points a million times. They strike me as feeble, & shot full of holes. The answers to them are as follows:
1) Since WWII, both parties have collaborated on a course that shows tremendous underlying continuity, regardless of which party is in control. While Bush Jr was exceptionally bad, Gore would have been about like Bill Clinton, whose admin was remarkably continuous with those of Bush Sr & Reagan. All were corporatist/militarists who pursued policies of empire.
2) There is no solid evidence at all that Obama would do anything "to advance a progressive agenda." He talks more like a Republican every day. The evidence doesn't suggest that he's in any way to the left of Bill Clinton, who in turn was to the right of Nixon.
3) We weren't "screwed by a Republican administration." We were screwed by the combination of a Repub administration and a Democratic Congress that never even tried to stand up to it. (And don't forget, YOU'RE the guy who claims, "...What matters is how Congress modifies the President's proposals by the time he gets to sign them into law.")
Vote anybody but the two parties.
FDR was a Communist, and the father of our Fascist government. State fascism is just a transition state to Global Communism.
Some famous quotes first.
"The greatest enemy of truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." --JFK, June 11, 1962
"You know I am a juggler, and I never let my right hand know what my left hand does. I'm perfectly willing to mislead and tell untruths..."FDR, May 1941
"Now to bring about government by oligarchy masquerading as democracy, it is fundamentally essential that practically all authority and control be centralized in our national government. The individual sovereignty of our states must first be destroyed, except in mere minor matters of legislation." -- FDR March 2, 1930
If Obama is another FDR, run for the exits.
Remove the myth, and here is what you see.
In 1915 FDR, as Assistant Secretary of the Navy, led US Marines into Haiti to overturn the only independent black republic. By all accounts, FDR administered Haiti brutally and cruelly with no regard for lives.
In 1920 gross atrocities in Haiti were reported in the media, FDR claimed responsibility but when that caused an uproar, he denied responsibility. In 1920 President Harding said this: "Practically all we know is that thousands of native Haitians have been killed by American Marines, and that many of our own gallant men have sacrificed their lives at the behest of an Executive department in order to establish laws drafted by the Assistant Secretary of the Navy...I will not empower an Assistant Secretary of the Navy to draft a constitution for helpless neighbors in the West Indies and jam it down their throats at the point of bayonets borne by US Marines."
In 1921 - A Senate subcommittee concluded that FDR had committed perjury before a Naval Court of Inquiry about his investigation of a homosexual corruption ring at the Newport, RI, Naval Station. FDR, as Assistant Secretary of the Navy, had approved the use of decoys to entrap homosexuals. Young sailors were instructed in and ordered by FDR's men to perform homosexual acts. He came down with Polio at this time and seems to have escpaed punishment.
In 1928 FDR became Governor of New York by means of massive vote fraud in Buffalo.
In 1932 he promised "I propose to you that the government, big and little, be made solvent and that the example be set by the President of the United States and his cabinet...Stop the deficits! Stop the deficits!......[I will] reduce the cost of government operations 25 percent" He also called for a sound gold currency. In 1933 he proceeded to do exactly the opposite of what he had promised.
In 1933 FDR inauguration speech.
"I am prepared under my constitutional duty to recommend the measures that a stricken nation in the midst of a stricken world may require.
But in the event that the Congress shall fail to take one of these courses, and in the event that the national emergency is still critical, I shall not evade the clear course of duty that will then confront me.
I shall ask the Congress for the one remaining instrument to meet the crisis. . .broad executive power to wage a war against the emergency as great as the power that would be given to me if we were in fact invaded by a foreign foe."
Meaning if Congress did not give him what he wanted, he would do it anyways. He was referring of course to the 1917 War Powers Act as amended in 1933 which allowed him to use these powers against Americans. The same powers are in effect today under a different name, and this was the tipping point that has led us to our fascist government today.
He was the leader in Executive Orders issued by far, over 3700. Of course, those were tough times and he served (dicatated) into his 4th term, but he was indeed the first truly unitary Executive, not Bush.
In 1933 Stalin himself was butchering millions of his own people, many of them Christian in his war against religion. Yet FDR diplomatically recognized him in 1933, calling him Uncle Joe, and set up the Export Import bank that guaranteed loans from the US to the Soviets. This was in a time of the depression when American banks were not loaning money to many Americans.
In 1933 Hitler came to power. Hitler was allowed to build up Germany from ashes into a military machine, the US and British Industries and Financial Institutions played a big role by investing there. FDR, allowed this, despite Hitlers Jewish policies and his knowledge of what was written in Mein Kampf. Hitler said what he was going to do , and he did it, or are at least tried, yet no effort by FDR to stop US investment in Hitlers Germany.
In 1933 FDR issued an Executive Order which would force the American people to give up their gold in exchange for paper money. When the passing of the appropriate legislation was accomplished, the American people were forced to give up their gold for this new paper money called "greenbacks" or US Government Notes (contrast this with the Federal Reserve Notes which we now have). Shortly thereafter, the government raised the price of gold from 20 dollars/oz to 35 dollars/oz. In short, the government (during the great depression) had robbed the Americans of over three billion dollars. Senator Carter Glass was asked his opinion on this new development. He replied, "President Roosevelt, I think that this is worse than anything that Ali Baba's forty thieves could ever have perpetrated."
A lot of Gold owned by the Big money men was not turned in and was sent illegally to Switzerland, where the central banks central bank (BIS in Basel) had been set up in 1930, shareholders included the same people who own the Fed. They profited greatly by the increased value of gold. Some of this money was used to finance Hitler and Stalins military buildup, and even after we entered the war.
In 1933, FDR gave us the New Deal. The key to this was the NRA(National Recovery Administration) and AAA (Agricultural Adjustment Administration) which paid American farmers 700 million to burn their crops, shoot their cattle, throw out their milk; all of this in the midst of a "Great Depression", where millions of Americans were starving and homeless, and some estimates put the number of people who starved at several million. But allowing food to be sold at below market prices to those who could not afford the market prices would disturb the markets, so the government subsidized the farmers to destroy food or not produce it. Yes, FDR and Uncle Joe had much in common. "Stalin is my brother" - FDR after Tehran.
The NRA was a total assault on free enterprise. Industry was to be straight jacketed into government-mandated cartels given the authority to set prices, determine production levels, and regulate the workplace. This was something akin to Mussolini's fascist corporativism; and expanded executive power at the expense of the Congress and the courts.
In 1934 he created the FCC and used it to control news programs from radio broadcasts (broadcast negativity and stations were threatened with losing their license)
1935 Supreme Court unanimously ruled FDR's National Recovery Administration , unconstitutional. Yet the regulatory agencies serve the same function. Do you really believe FDA, FAA, USDA, FTC, etc exist to protect the people. They protect the cartels.
In 1935 when the Supreme Court was deciding whether gold repayment clauses in government bonds could be unilaterally voided, FDR prepared to defy them if they voted against him. He drafted a fireside chat to announce that he would not comply and when the Court reluctantly found 5-4 in his favor, FDR confided to an aide "The nation will never know what a great treat it missed in not hearing this marvelous radio address."
In 1935 FDR created the the Works Progress Administration (WPA) which was the largest New Deal agency, employing millions of people and affecting most every locality in the United States, especially rural and western mountain populations. We are told this public works program introduced by President Roosevelt became a salvation for the jobless and landless Americans. The works conducted under the Public Works Administration and the Civil Works Administration built channels, roads or bridges in remote and dangerous territories and paid little after taxes and fees, and there were many deaths. Prison labour was also included in the work force. The conditions which people were working for food, might be compared to Stalin's GULAG camps. As Stalin said, if you don't work, you don't eat.
1936 Supreme Court ruled FDR's Agricultural Adjustment Administration (AAA) unconstitutional.
In 1937 FDR was pretty ticked off with the Supreme Court and with both the Social Security Act and the Wagner Act pending before the Supreme Court, FDR proposed in Congress that he sack the current Supreme Court and "re-organize" it by allowing him to appoint six new justices.
In 1938 Congress defeated FDR's dictator bill.
FDR & the Congress raised the effective federal tax rate by 700% between 1932 & 1939. He could have just printed his own money like Lincoln instead of borrowing it and collecting it from taxes in a country that was trying to lift itself out of a depression. But given his Wall Street Connections, he would not go up against the Fed.
In the 1940 campaign, FDR repeatedly promised to keep the country out of war and then did everything in his power to involve the country in war.
In 1941, before being attacked by japan, FDR declared an unlimited state of emergency. Through 3 declarations of National emergency - March 1933, September 9, 1939, and May 27, 1941, FDR usurped as much dictatorial power as Hitler had on paper. The first was codified in HR 1491, No. 1 and gave FDR the same powers as in war. We have since been under one state of emergency or another.
In 1941 FDR cut off Japans oil knowing this would mean war, and allowed Pearl Harbour to be attacked taking care to remove any aircraft carriers, and thus getting us into the war that he promised to keep us out of.
During the period of Hitlers regime, Jewish immigration was restricted and even some ships filled with refugees were turned away for US ports.
In 1945 FDR at YALTA delivered 725 million people into Communist rule To do so, FDR trashed the four freedoms, the Atlantic Charter, his promises and commitments to small democracies, his oath of office, the moral standing of the United States, and he created a perpetual cold war that bankrupted US.
Our entry into the war accomplished 2 things. It made the Soviet Union much bigger since they got all of Eastern Europe, including Poland (remeber, The British declared war on Germany to "save" Poland. FDR also handed Stalin nuclear technology, although this is denied in our official history. It also, indirectly, and after FDR left us, it allowed China to become communist, since the Soviets were able to support the Communists, and we were witholding support congress had authorized from the Nationalists, due to the Communist influenced IPR advice to support Mao. In effect, WW II was a great victory for the spread of Communism. Fascism was defeated in Europe by the American Fascists we had become under FDR, our fascism cloaked in a flag and bearing a cross.
WW II also freed the British from the burdens of Empire. It was too damn expensive for them. So they shifted the burden to us, where their bankers still pull the strings. We are simply a crypto-commonwealth nation doing the heavy lifting for our masters, and going bankrupt doing it. Our leaders that serve well get knighted by the Queen. Britain simply outsourced their empire building to us.
My bet is Obama will be another FDR. If so, we are burnt toast.
Once you remove all the myths, this world really makes a lot of sense. If I could only find out how not to be white bread. We must declare war on the toasters.
.
"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."
- Franklin D. Roosevelt
.
dubet June 30th, 2008 5:14 pm
Thanks, I am going to have to think this over a bit.
Thank you, Randy Shaw, for a much-needed dose of common sense.
I posted much of this last week in response to a Matthew Rothschild column but it seems that the ostriches out there enraged at Mr. Shaw's thesis need help pulling their heads out of the sand.
I admire Ralph Nader's lifetime of achievement and I voted for him in 2000 to send the Democrats a message. I afforded myself this luxury with the full awareness that if Al Gore lost my state, he would be buried in a landslide anyway. However, those knuckleheads who thought they were keeping their political virginity by voting for Nader in Florida enabled the Supreme Court to hand the election to Bush, and ended up being well and truly raped by two terms of Bush with a criminal war, torture, an even more skewed Supreme Court and the worst economy since the Great Depression. If you really believe there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats, ask yourselves whether the disastrous course of our nation since 2001 would have been followed under President Gore.
Yes, Obama has his failings, being human like the rest of us. But learn your constitution: the President proposes but the Congress disposes. We should elect Obama so big that he pulls in huge Democratic majorities in both houses, just like FDR did. In fact, FDR was given courage, and kept in line, by having all those Democrats in congress at his back. What matters is how Congress modifies the President's proposals by the time he gets to sign them into law. Let's face it, in the real world the only realistic alternatives are Obama and McCain. Although there would obviously remain conservative Democrats in the Congress (just as in FDR's day), Obama as President and a substantial influx of new Democratic members would do far more to advance a progressive agenda than any number "principled" votes that Nader or someone like him could realistically expect.
How many more times do you want to get screwed by a Republican administration? That's exactly what you could risk by keeping yourselves pure by voting for Nader, or by staying home on principle.
They say you can only lose your virginity once but I guess some of you would blithely risk learning the hard way that, politically speaking, it can happen to you again, and again, and again. No amount of the wishful thinking, hissy fits, tantrums and downright rage that pervade many of the previous posts will help your cause one iota. Maybe you enjoy being in perpetual opposition, or perhaps you fear that if you actually exercised some influence you would also have to accept some responsibility.
Or maybe you are waiting for some progressive version of the Rapture.
"This is classic move to the left to get the nomination, then move to the right."
Close, but I'd call it lying and deceiving the party to get the nomination, then revealing the true colors.
To the 'hold his feet to the fire' nonsense, how's that been working with the Dem's congressional leadership? Gotten the war money stopped yet? Gotten impeachment?
You get one chance to hold a politicians feet to the fire. That's called an election. Use it or lose it. But once their in office they don't give a damn what you think until the next election roles around.
Prove me wrong by pressuring the Democrats in Congress to impeach Bush immediately. Go ahead, lets see you do it.
Obama cops out on FISA. ... Obama unabashedly kisses AIPAC ass. ... Obama appoints a WalMart-lover as one of his chief economic advisers. ... ALL AFTER HE GETS THE NOMINATION.
This is classic move to the left to get the nomination, then move to the right.
Also, the author of the above article is living in La-La Land. The idea of "incremental changes" is both insulting and delusional. To quote that famous American philosopher, Willie Loman: "The woods are burning, boys!" Put another way: incremental changes are hardly gonna do the trick.
Finally, to compare 1933-45 FDR to modern-day America in a modern-day global economy is equally as insutling and delusional. But, as several previous posters have put it: this is typical of how desperate cruise missile liberals are to rationalize Corporate Citizen Obama into something he, clearly, isn't.
Incremental changes ... c'est horrifique!
http://www.feri.org/archives/speeches/jul0232.cfm
Follow that link to read FDR's speech to the Democratic Convention in 1932.
Then notice that it sounds nothing at all like an Obama speech. For instance, early on FDR promises to clearly set forth his policies. Then he does it in this speech. His convention speech in 1932 is famous for two reasons. One of those is that he announces the New Deal in this speech.
One trick the Obama campaign has used all along is to constantly have nonsense written that compares Obama favorably to Democratic leaders of the past that have high positives. They'd done it over and over again. And its all just as much bull as anything us coming out of Obama's mouth ... which is everything.
Read this and compare it to an Obama speech. FDR isn't up there trying to see how many times he can shove the words 'hope' and 'change' into a speech. Instead he's laying out a series of real policies, in detail, about exactly how he'll help Americans who were then struggling in what we'd call in today's Orwellian speech 'an economic downturn'.
FDR isn't giving platitudes to the crowds, then going off to collaborate with Wall Street and Walmart about how best to screw over Americans one more time. FDR is standing up and speaking honestly and clearly about how he's going to help Americans if he gets elected.
One thing for sure, Obama is no FDR.
Obama will win. That is practically certain. He talks too much about bipartisanship. We need to elect as many Democratic representatives and senators as possible. Then they can put the pressure on him to serve the people, not the special interests. I am giving NO MONEY TO OBAMA. I will support liberal Democratic candidatges as much as I am able.
Here is my question to the Obama supporters. Suppose Obama gets elected. People say "let's get him elected and when he is in the White House we will hold his feet to the fire." What if Obama turns out to be a major disappointment? What are you going to do? You can't touch George Bush, so what makes you think you can touch Obama?
"Progressive Obama critics should study FDR".
What a crock of shit this is. The Obama critics, progressive or not, don't need to study anything of the sort. They should only wonder in utter amazement, why anyone ever believed Obama in the first place.
FDR wouldn't have had Obama as a file clerk for Christ's sake. Neither would have Truman.
Now however our choices are limited, there are only two VIABLE candidates.
"A wise scepticism is the first attribute of good criticism" ____ ~Lowell~
Nicely stated Meg. The choice is clear: continue feeding from the same polluted trough withthe rest of the herd or honor your own conscience. Jump through the same hoops the status quo serves up, or take a principled stand against the corruption. For those teethered to the 'system' the rationales will follow normative choices in an array of rationalizations on behalf of more of the same. For those free souls not inching along the freeways in their metal coffins, third party politics is the only true progressive option until a critical mass is reached when people stop accepting mediocre candidates teethered to the corporate teet.
Nader is the only choice.
The Constitution was a pragmatic document and its purpose was to limit gov't power. Being pragmatic about the Constitution is unconstitutional.
There are/were 3 reasons to vote for Obama:
1. Civil Liberties (didn't he teach Constituional Law?)
2. The Supreme Court
3. Repudiate Bush and the neocons.
One down.
Like many on this forum, in my heart of hearts I wish more than anything else that Dennis Kucinich would be the next President because he speaks to the issues that concern me, but we all know that is not going to happen.
So, okay, here is the problem: By the first week of November either McSame or Obama will be elected President. Which one are you hoping gets the job of appointing cabinet heads, Supreme Court Justices, Federal judges, US attornies, ambassadors, stc?
Who do you think will have more credibility dealing with the bulk of this world's people who are not Caucasian or be able to convincingly make a believable effort to bring together the deeply divided factions of this country?
Who do you want one heartbeat away from the presidency, Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, Charlie Crist--or would Bill Richardson, John Edwards, or Chris Dodd be better? (not perfect but better).
unless Barack does something really stupid like select Hillary as his running mate, there is no way that he would not be a better choice than McSame.
thomas more asks about revolution...several days ago, frank asked 'what's our plan?'...good questions
we have two separate, yet intertwined, problems...the human\human problem, which involves industrialization, politics, religion, economy, war, etc., and the human\planet problem, which involves the continuing destruction of our natural environment...unfortunately, many of the aspects of the human\human problem are directly responsible for the human\planet problem...
revolution, the violent kind, if it has any role, would only apply to the human\human problem, of course, as the planet wouldn't really notice...if American fascism continues, and that looks likely, then revolution, meaning the violent kind, will probably be necessary, as force will probably be brought to bear upon the increasingly unhappy and agitated populace...
unfortunately, even if such a revolution were successful, it will mean nothing unless accompanied by another revolution, the non-violent kind...a revolution within each of us regarding what it means to be a human living on this planet...only a personal revolution that rejects virtually every fundamental theory upon which our current way of life is predicated will allow us to preserve this, (cliche coming) the only planet we have available to us to inhabit...any solutions that portend to allow us to continue to own property and work at businesses and shop for products are lies, and swallowing them must be seen as intentional self-deception...this planet was not created as a stockpile of materials for human chemical alteration...obviously, it would be my suggestion to start with the personal, non-violent revolution, and hope it helps avoid the need for the violent one, but current societal pressures certainly make that extremely difficult to navigate...
so, what are the fundamental theories upon which our way of life are predicated? ownership of property looms very large, as does corporate entity...others?
The argument being made by the Obama supporting Democrats is that he is a pragmatist and that "my way-high way" thinking is unthinkable, if not stupid and childish.
If this argument is to be bought than it does present a question: Is there anything that cannot be pragmatically negotiated? Is the Constitution, Bill of Rights and rule of law negotiable? Basically, that is what the Democrats have done, negotiated and sold them down the river.
What else is negotiable? How about people's lives? Is it okay to be pragmatic and negotiate away 1,000,000 lives in a war started on false pretenses? Should we be pragmatic and negotiate with people who start wars for profit? Should we pragmatically negotiate with war criminals when their crimes get exposed?
Would you pragmatically negotiate your ass for a good cause? How about your sister's ass. Is there anything that should be kept off the table when pragmatically negotiating?
I'm grateful to be among people who are not willing to do whatever the mainstream anything says. If you keeping doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten. Yeah !!!
There is no such thing as the Center.
I had a car that rarely worked properly for long. It was unreliable and broke down when you needed it most. I used to work on it all the time. It was a black hole for time and money. Finally I got fed up, went out and bought a new car and spent years happier than a pig in crap without a car problem.
The Democrats are the broken car. They are hopelessly sold out and embedded into the very corrupt fabric of D.C. The problem is that many progressives keep thinking they can repair and patch up the old junker and it'll run. It doesn't. Four years from now we will be in exactly the same dilemma. Trust me on that one. It's time for a new car.
"If it were otherwise, and everyone insisted on my way of the highway, nothing would get done."
Seems to fit most discussions.
I keep seeing these calls for "revolution", it leads me to wonder what they are talking about? Sit ins, peaceful resitence, guns in the street?
Strictly a personal curiousity question.
The Democratic Party apologists are at it again. Lesseroftwoevilism is getting old and stale. A new tactic: OBAMA = ROOSEVELT. Nice try Randy Shaw.
"...expecting Obama to follow a consistently left-wing agenda..."
-You mean a decent agenda that doesn't condone law breakers who wrap themselves up in the flag as their last refuge.
"...overt discrimination and even lynchings, the Roosevelt Administration largely looked the other way."
"Nor did Roosevelt's alliance with racist Democrats..."
"...perceived hypocrisy–such as enacting a federal minimum wage law that exempted domestic workers and other heavily African-American jobs–the black community..."
-Rather than convincing Obama's detractors, Randy Shaw, you are giving FDR a black eye.
"...to reassure moderate Democrats..."
Read: Republicans and Democratic-Republicans
"...facilitate passage of Obama's more progressive agenda next year."
-Just trust him on this one.
"...Obama likely did not see a fight against FISA as a priority."
-Your civil rights are not his priority, reassuring the establishment and getting elected is.
"...pragmatic nature of the Democratic nominee."
He's willing to do anything to get elected including selling out his friend and spiritual adviser of 20 years, Jeremiah Wright.
"...would get key legislation passed when the votes were lacking..."
If Dem