Gun Control: Let the Debate Begin
Gun Control: Let the Debate Begin
You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
The National Rifle Association may want to change its unofficial motto following the recent Supreme Court ruling in District of Columbia v. Heller. In a 5-4 decision the Court declared that gun ownership is an individual right guaranteed by the Second Amendment .
The gun lobby's testosterone-fueled credo served them well up to this point. With a constitutional right up for grabs, the NRA could, with a whiff of plausibility, portray every attempt to curb gun violence as one small but devious step in the plot to disarm Americans. Post-Heller, the NRA may want to consider a new slogan.
I suggest: "Be careful what you wish for."
Justices Scalia, et al., may have just pulled the slippery-slope argument out from under the NRA. A slippery-slope, after all, must descend to some horrific place if it is to instill fear and loathing. By itself, a slippery-slope is about as frightening as a snake-pit without the snakes.
For years, the NRA scared its members into action (primarily the opening of their wallets) with cries of "the gun grabbers are coming!" Now that the right to own a gun is settled law, opposition to restrictions such as waiting periods and background checks have to be argued on their merits. That cripples the NRA's ability to gin up the fear factor. It's hard to imagine even Second Amendment fundamentalists whipped into a frenzy over NRA alerts that "Those-who-would-make-gun-buying-inconvenient are coming!"
It's a point I first tried to make in 1993 at a gun violence symposium sponsored by the late Betty Friedan. Friedan had invited me to speak on the Second Amendment because I had just published a journalistic, i.e., non-polemical, book about the NRA, in which I discussed differing interpretations of gun ownership rights.
Friedan, the matriarch of the modern feminist movement, sat in the front row, perhaps ten feet away from the podium. What I remember most clearly is her reaction to my talk, which, in a nutshell, advocated conceding the point about the Second Amendment - agreeing that there existed a constitutional right to bear arms - and turning instead to the nuts and bolts issues of gun control and responsible gun ownership. It has long been a conservative trope that with rights come responsibilities. If one side doesn't recognize gun owners' rights, I argued, the other side won't discuss gun owners' responsibilities. I believed then, as I do now, that we need to move away from the endless bickering over whether or not a right to own a gun exists and turn to a more productive debate over what constitutes reasonable gun control.
(Friedan wasn't buying it - any of it. She made that clear by shaking her head without letup from the moment I began speaking until I was able to slink off the stage and take refuge in my chair.)
The book did well and for the next year or so, I became a semi-pro talking head speaking about the NRA and gun control. Network anchors and talk show hosts constantly tried to force me to declare myself as either "for" gun control or "against" it. Nothing prevents solutions to important social problems quite so well as artificially constructed dichotomies. Nothing crushes intelligent debate or empowers extremists so completely as convincing people that there are only two sides to an issue, and that they have to pick one and then spend the rest of their lives defending it from all comers.
A decade ago, having a nuanced view in this particular battle could make you many enemies but few friends. Discussions rarely got to the point where I could even explain that I was willing to concede the argument on the Second Amendment not simply as a tactic, but as a matter of principle. The Amendment is poorly written and ambiguous, but it is still part of the Bill of Rights. When there are doubts about what these enumerated liberties mean, I think we are almost always better served by an expansive interpretation than by taking a narrow one.
Not a particularly sophisticated or complex argument, but in the gun debate it was as impenetrable as a quadratic equation to a beagle. The problem and its solution were apparent on talk radio shows.
The drill usually went like this: A caller would begin by stating "I'm against gun control and - " I'd interrupt to ask for clarification.
"So, you think it should be legal for six-year-olds to bring machine guns to kindergarten?"
"Of course not!" they'd cry, full of indignation.
"So, you're not against all gun control?"
"Just the unreasonable ones," was the usual response. And then the real conversation could begin.
The NRA is celebrating the Scalia decision, assuming they've won the debate. They haven't. Because so far, all we've had is a shouting match, orchestrated by the NRA to swell its own coffers, and legitimated by gun-control advocates who leapt, not fell, into the NRA trap by failing to give the Second Amendment the same respect granted to the rest of the Bill of Rights.
Now the Supreme Court has ruled and the shouting match is over. Let the debate begin.
Osha Gray Davidson is the author of five books of non-fiction, including, Under Fire: the NRA and the Battle for Gun Control

73 Comments so far
Show AllPissantNobody Says:
"The scramble for wealth is clearly a factor in most violence, be it a armed robbery, an imperialist invasion, or sanitized strangulation at the hands of a 'respectable' board of directors."
Well put
"Still, the studious and sincere will find that the early years of that revolution showed what organized labor, under the leadership of a Leninist party can indeed take power in its own name."
Yes, control of capitalism can only be accomplished through organized labor, where labor includes all workers and managers up to the level of corporate officers.
"The notion of 'restoring democracy to our republic' is folly on several levels."
Democracy is not the cure for uncontrolled capitalism. Only an organized countervailing force can contol capitalism
"There has never been a time when 'our democracy' has not been engaged in violent imperialist expansion."
It is not "our democracy" that engages in violent imperialist expansion. It is the failure to participate in our democracy that is the cause.
" the beast must be put to sleep for the safety of all."
The beast needs to be tamed and put on a strong leash - and unorganized democracy will not do it.
"Capitalism is blind acquisitiveness. It demands that most people are on the edge of poverty."
Capitalism marginalizes all workers to the level that capitalists must pay for their labor. Until recently capitalism has built a substantial middle class in America - only because it was unavoidable. Globalization has changed that. OTOH, even globalization will need a growing middle class (not necessarily in the U.S.) to keep it profitable.
" Thus, all countries, at all times are under capitalist pressure to reduce services that do not bring a short-term profit. Can you propose a way around this? No, you cannot."
The time honored way for government to protect domestic industry and workers is by means of tariffs on imported goods. A totally organized (and internationalized) labor force will do it.
"The only known and proven-possible way forward is to create international economic socialist unity, and the first step in that process is to build the vanguard party."
Yes - BUT! It needs to be built around labor - not some political entity!
"Democracy would be good. Workers' democracy, that is!"
YES!!
Perhaps I cannot convince you of the way forward in this small space, but it is abundantly clear that capitalism guarantees war, poverty, and injustice forever.
YES! Uncontrolled capitalism guarantees wars and human misery.
OTOH, "political" socialism guarantees economic stagnation
GwNorth July 1st, 2008 1:35 pm
Thanks very much for that information. Very interesting! It does add to the various points brought up.
I learned something.
Osha says:
"JohnC wrote: What do you think of my idea - $25 million insurance for gun ownership, with premiums based on risk analysis?
Sorry, I think a court would be correct in ruling against it on the grounds that it is a back-door attempt to ban guns, and that's unconstitutional."
How about if the $25 million was for "no-fault" coverage that reimburses all victims of gun crime, and spreads the cost to all who want to own guns?
http://www.momomedia.com/CLPEF/chrono.html
>>As to Japanese internment during WW2 it wouldn't have made much difference about their guns as their internment was un-constitutional in and of itself. I'm sure SCOTUS didn't rule on any part of that. It was a shameful episode
Ok i was peretty certain the court HAD ruled that the internmnet was constitutional.
So I dug up this timeline and found.
June 21 Hirabayashi v U.S. and Yasui v U.S : The Supreme Court rules that a curfew may be imposed against one group of Americans citizens based solely on ancestry and that Congress in enacting Public law 77-503 authorized the implementation of Executive Order 9066 and provided criminal penalties for violation of orders of the Military Commander.
December 18 Korematsu v U.S.: the U.S. Supreme Court rules that one group of citizens may be singled out and expelled from their homes and imprisoned for several years without trial, based solely on their ancestry
December 18 In ex parte Endo, the U.S. Supreme Court rules that WRA has no authority to detain a "concededly loyal" American citizen.
So it would seem that the Supreme Court AT THE TIME claimed that the Internmnet was Constitutional . As the timeline shows, this included the forced surrender of all weapons in the hands of Japanese Americans.
This suggests to me that while they have ruled there a right to bear arms, the US Governmnet can get around that right by declaring certain groups of people as seditous or a threat to the Government of the United States.
It is sort of like "Habeus Corpus" unless GW Bush decides you dont get it because you are an illegal combatant.
The reason I bought up the internment is it a clear example of the tactics that could be used by a Government in the future.
BTW to the claim there nothing a disarmed populace can do to combat a tyranical Government. That sinply untrue as Gandhi showed.
If Americans all stayed home and did not go to work, or did not buy products from the various stores, the economy would come tumbling down and the wealthy who own the government would not like thta one bit.
What if we did have a machine gun in every house, we might end up like... Switzerland?! Yes, if we all owned selective fire FN-FAL's, we might become a nation of almost zero crime, that doesn't have a police force that bludgeons its citizens for practicing free speech. They don't have to dial 911 and wait for twenty minutes for the police to show up to identify bodies or open a rape kit. Their neighborhood watch has little to do, because of their empowerment. Switzerland has a downsized military, famous for bicycle brigades, ski patrols, a cavalry made of horses not tanks, and a passenger pidgeon unit that lived for eighty years past the bird itself. Yet, when German forces came to Swiss borders and outnumbered the Swiss army five to one, the well honed civilian population was such a deterrent that those borders were not crossed.
An armed US population need not have a revolution every twenty years, as recommended. However, look at urban crime, look at police lawlessness, look at corporate lawlessness, and White House Lawlessness! That all occurs with a much weaker amount of firearms per home than Switzerland, and many homes who are armed are encouraged to follow the elite status quo. What if we were fully disarmed as a civilian population. Will our brutalizing police and riot squads disarm, or will Kent State scenarios become a cliché? Do you trust the White House enough to prostrate yourself before them and hope they do the right thing? "See? I have no weapons, be kind to me now!" Remember the New York Republican convention and "Little Gitmo"? (New York has an unarmed civilian population.) Free speech is our first right, and the ability to protect that right, individually if it need be, our second.
The government cuts education, yet it's well known that cutting education leads to an increase in crime and spending in law enforcement and incarceration that is seven times the budged decrease of that education. Who has the firearms in Compton? Not law abiding citizens to any great extent. There are many firearms control laws, and the people using firearms have them through illegal means. The tiny murderous fraction commiting the crimes there could never buy a gun from a dealer. If in Compton the decent people living in fear presently were as well armed as Switzerland, there would be little gang violence, I'd bet. A human mind gone wrong has the mentality of a predator, and predators attack prey that is the least threat to that predator, the unarmed so to say. That is true of criminals at the micro scale, and the federal scale.
Would we need to have a blood shedding revolution just because we were fully armed? Hopefully not, but once we are disarmed, that is the point when it will become necessary to need them. If we prevent liquor store owners, convenient store owners, and gas station owners from ever owning a handgun for under the register, counter, or wherever they hide them, we're leaving them exposed to the desperate predator. Concealed carry handguns are one of the greatest deterrents to rape. Look at how high rape rates are in New York city... no handguns allowed, commonly, legally. So, when our federal government is as outrageously against the will and the good of the people as it is, you want to sacrifice your right to protect your ability to protest, or even hand out leaflets? You want to rely upon a well regulated state militia, the National Guard, who're now under federal control and presently sent overseas killing for Halliburton, to protect you against their own new masters?
The right to own firearms must remain present and practiced, even handguns (especially for women), whether you're with the NRA, the Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership, or the Black Panther Party for Self Defence, or none of the above - just someone trying to get by. If you let the Second Amendment become eroded, the First Amendment will follow suit. Perhaps you can see that it's happening to both as it is.
GwNorth June 30th, 2008 6:15 pm
"Is it your contention that Blacks had the full right to own weapons under US law in 1776 and that they simply could not vote and were treated as Citizens in all other respects?"
Only land owners could vote originally. I frankly don't know if the black landowners were allowed to vote. I doubt it in the cities, but wouldn't be surprised in more rural areas. Its something I don't know however.
Free blacks certainly had the right to arms and certainly carried them. Hispanics and Indians? Of course they had the right to arms.
The only ones restricted from gun ownership that I know of were slaves and bond servants.
Sorry I wasn't more clear.
As to Japanese internment during WW2 it wouldn't have made much difference about their guns as their internment was un-constitutional in and of itself. I'm sure SCOTUS didn't rule on any part of that. It was a shameful episode.
PissantNobody June 30th, 2008 10:03 pm
You are right about the .50, it will stop any one. But a .223 will stop anyone too. But I am talking about hunting too. Besides, if there is anyway to avoid it, you don't want to kill someone, just stop them or delay them till you can retreat. Hopefully you can get out befiore it comes to that.
"I cannot leave without reminding everyone that it is capitalist acquisitiveness that spawns a huge amount of the violence in all corners of society."
I will respectfully disagree. What about Africa? Many parts of Asia? Nicagragua? Middle East? Violence isn't produced by Capitalism unless it is not bridled with Democracy. Example China. Would you agree with that?
"Until we build the party of international socialism and until they lead a successful communist revolution"
What do you base this on? As far as I know so far, there has been no sucessful application.
So my solution is to restore the Democracy to our Republic thats been proven to work.
Pax
JohnC wrote: What do you think of my idea - $25 million insurance for gun ownership, with premiums based on risk analysis?
Sorry, I think a court would be correct in ruling against it on the grounds that it is a back-door attempt to ban guns, and that's unconstitutional.
To mbruton: I wouldn't have a conversation in person with someone who is so disrespectful and I won't do it online, either.
The decision by SCOTUS amounted to, "You have a right to own guns except when the government says you do not." This is no victory but rather an invitation for wholesale gun control. If you have the right to license you have the right to refuse that license on any grounds you may choose or simply stop issuing it as New York city has done.
Scanning through the comments here I ran into the straw-man argument of a six year old in school with a machine gun. How stupid can you be? Students never have full constitutional rights. They cannot vote either can they? Their free speech is massively limited. It's adults were talking about here you moron NOT some preschooler that is smuggling an atomic bomb in it's diaper though metaphorically it is common enough.
This kind of "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" retardation is the reason that we have little in the way of rights under the constitution from a practical standpoint. Want to protest Bush? You can do so in a cage that is three miles outside of the event and out of the general public's view. "Free speech!" you whine? There's a very good explanation, you see, you have a right to free speech except for when the government says you do not. So you see, your rights are intact and not being violated at all.
CHUMP!
>>I'd suggest that Citizenship wasn't restricted before the Bill of Rights, it was the right to vote. You had to be a land owner. And they were of course mostly white males
Is it your contention that Blacks had the full right to own weapons under US law in 1776 and that they simply could not vote and were treated as Citizens in all other respects?
(Or the Hispanics/Aboriginals etc) )
I am not certain what you disagree with in the original post.
BTW just for the interests sake. When Japanese Americans were interned, were their weapons seized and did the Supreme Court rule as to whether such would be constitutional?
Vigilantism works considerably better for white males than just about anyone else .... and even there, it works better for the landed and the wealthy than for the poor, landless and gun-less
sorry, it's not the solution.
An abundance of guns hasn't done much for the inner city ... I'm just saying ...
p.s. I really appreciate the author jumping in here and continuing the debate! Kudos!
Add me to those kudos!
LeeAnnG June 30th, 2008 4:24 pm
"At the time the Bill of Rights was written, citizenship was limited to white, mostly wealthy males. So even if "every" citizen was expected to be "armed," the number of residents (as opposed to "citizens") with guns was limited."
I'd suggest that Citizenship wasn't restricted before the Bill of Rights, it was the right to vote. You had to be a land owner. And they were of course mostly white males.
vrajitorul June 30th, 2008 4:22 pm
"O.k., so if in addition to hunting (no problem here, but do you eat your kill?"
Yes I do. If you don't, you aren't hunting, you are killing. And hunters despise these pathetic yooboos. They are the kind that go to a game reserve and pay for a trophy. Cowards.
"Then, so where were the responsible gun owners during, say, Columbine, or any of the tragic, limitless shopping mall rampages that keep happening?"
They happened where gun owners can't carry. Texas has a right to carry law with training and a license, just put in a "castle law" last year. All those problems have declined here.
But you can't carry in schools or public buildings.
At the time the Bill of Rights was written, citizenship was limited to white, mostly wealthy males. So even if "every" citizen was expected to be "armed," the number of residents (as opposed to "citizens") with guns was limited.
If America is so entrenched in the right to bear arms, how does our government dare impose restrictions on other countries as to their stockpile of any kind of weapon at all? Oh. Right. America is special. Its citizens get to own any kind of "arms" they want, and we can have as many WMD we like, but other countries can't because they are too dangerous for those "inferior" governments to be trusted with them.
Double standard much?
I think what the author is saying is, now that the "right to bear arms" part is affirmed, we can proceed to address the "well-regulated", if not "militia" part.
O.k., so if in addition to hunting (no problem here, but do you eat your kill? If not, the hobby, I think, rises to the level of neanderthal posturing. And if you do hunt, why be opposed to a license and "driver's" test?) guns are supposed to protect us from
a)an amok government, and
b)random, armed, violent weirdos.
Then, so where were the responsible gun owners during, say, Columbine, or any of the tragic, limitless shopping mall rampages that keep happening? (I think there was one, but I believe he was an off-duty cop, no?).
And anyone who thinks they can get the drop on a posse of jack-booted thugs intent on front door remodeling and miscreance, should, IMHO, think again. If nothing else, they have, and always will have, bigger and better toys. Besides, as noted more intelligently and coherently above, there seem to be infinite other, more subtle and insidious ways They can/are limiting our freedoms.
p.s. I really appreciate the author jumping in here and continuing the debate! Kudos!
tobiasaurusrex says:
"Actually maintaining the citizen's ability to revolt against a US government gone sour is precisely what is intended."
Are you actully trying to tell us that the Framers who, almost to a man, feared the possiblity of "mob rule" under democracy were actually trying to make sure that the mob would have the guns to bolster them?
Come on!
" If you read US history, you may have heard of a man named Thomas Jefferson, who said, "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion."
Well, I prefer Tom Paine's advocacy of a Constitutional Convention every seven years to allow the document to "grow" and "refine" itself with the times.
We could probably then dispense with the stupidity of a Supreme Court of life long judges with power equal to Congress and the President.
And if we had had frequent Constitutional Conventions, presidential power would now be far below what it is.
All to our great advantage.
Osha says"
"John C & Tobiasurausrex: The individual right vs. collective right question is moot."
I did not dispute that
"The Supreme Court has decided that it's an individual right."
I simply said (and I will stick by it), that the citizen's right to bear arms (2nd Amendment) was not intended (or even necessary) for individual self protection - that was an undisputed "given" at the time. Every citizen was expected to be armed. No special amendment was needed for that. The framer's intention was, as I stated, to prevent the Federal government from ever preventing the states, from forming militias made up of their armed citizens. If it were not for that consideration, there would have been no 2nd Amendment.
"This is a great opportunity to move forward with defining what are reasonable and effective measures in gun control and what possible alternatives exist to prevent violence and the roots of it"
Exactly!
What do you think of my idea - $25 million insurance for gun ownership, with premiums based on risk analysis?
susanparker June 30th, 2008 3:55 pm
yes, and we have streets and SIDEWALKS, and lawns and all sort of places CARS are not allowed to travel. We have speed limits and emission limits and THE HIGHWAY PATROL … sheesh.
... And still you car drivers manage to kill more people than gun owners. Wreckless murderers, you are!
Keep shilling for Hitler's legacy and the New World Order crew, John. A little sugar with your RFID?
Actually maintaining the citizen's ability to revolt against a US government gone sour is precisely what is intended. If you read US history, you may have heard of a man named Thomas Jefferson, who said, "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion."
You spew hysteria, lies, insults, and other deceptions to try to "prove" detrimental viewpoints. The same viewpoints promoted by every nation responsible for a genocide in the 20th century.
View the chart on the JPFO page I listed at the top of the comments.
yes, and we have streets and SIDEWALKS, and lawns and all sort of places CARS are not allowed to travel. We have speed limits and emission limits and THE HIGHWAY PATROL ... sheesh.
tobiasaurusrex says:
"The "militia" that fought for freedom from King George was in no way some state regulated force. They were individual citizens who showed up in Cambridge Commons with the guns from their homes and barns."
That was in 1775 before the Declaration of independence and before The states organized militias and placed them with the Continental Army under Washington.
"The Second Amendment is there to always allow individuals to band together for freedom."
That's utter nonsense. No government facilitates revolution - and certainly not ours. You do know about our Civil War - ?
"It had everything to do with individual ownership.I know this because I am an honest person with a full brain."
Well if you are honest, you ought at least reconsider your position.
"Cars still kill more people than firearms, so why aren't they banned yet?"
We require car owners to have insurance - so why not gun owners?
John C & Tobiasurausrex: The individual right vs. collective right question is moot. The Supreme Court has decided that it's an individual right. This is a great opportunity to move forward with defining what are reasonable and effective measures in gun control and what possible alternatives exist to prevent violence and the roots of it.
I've mentioned education, others brought up ending the "War on Drugs" and working to empower people in our political/social culture.
Here's another right that I think is critical: transparency in government. In fighting government abuse, a revitalized FOIA Act is more powerful than 10,000 handguns.(Didn't Mao's doppelgänger say that?)
Imagine what would happen if every NRA member demanded that their congressional delegations, and candidates for president, put real teeth into the Freedom of Information Act.
Thank you Osha. The NRA makes the point that only by standing by the second amendmendment, can the other amendments be protected, but presently with more guns per capita in the US than ever before and more per capita than any other country that I can think of, we have been watching the first, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth amendments be diluted under our noses and spat upon by the current criminals in our government. And where has been the NRA??? Has their work and positions protected any of the human beings that have been abused by this govermnent or protected any of these amendments that have been violated. Where is the NRA?? They really are a poor excuse for protecting any citizens rights if they can't defend this.
The "militia" that fought for freedom from King George was in no way some state regulated force. They were individual citizens who showed up in Cambridge Commons with the guns from their homes and barns.
The Second Amendment is there to always allow individuals to band together for freedom. It had everything to do with individual ownership.
I know this because I am an honest person with a full brain.
Cars still kill more people than firearms, so why aren't they banned yet?
Correction:
Make that $25 million insurance coverage for gun ownership!
Why do people keep trying to turn this into "The NRA vs. Vegans"? It's not. It's about the US founding fathers' wisdom, in depth studying of history, and their own experience with tyrants, vs. the New World Order.
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
- Mahatma Gandhi
"For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead to the future."
- Adolf Hitler
Good point, lwhunt330. In my article, I support the recent decision on the 2nd Amendment solely because it IS part of our enumerated rights. I also point out, as susanparker does, that a reliance on the 2nd Amendment as a check on government tyranny is an admission of failure in using and defending all the other amendments, and the rest of the Constitution itself.
RE the NRA, when I was interviewing their leadership for "Under Fire," they had two arguments for their focus on the 2nd Amendment. The first was that as a single organization they needed to focus solely on one amendment. That makes sense to me as far as it goes. The second argument was that the 2nd Amendment is the most important, because, they said, government fear of an armed citizenry is what protects all the other amendments. That seems specious at best. Frankly, with a few exceptions, the leadership of the NRA is most interested in their own institutional power, not in the 2nd Amendment. That isn't unique to the NRA -- it's the nature of institutions.
The head of the NRA isn't even a "gun person." Wayne LaPierre isn't a hunter or target shooter or a constitutional zealot. Before coming to the NRA, Wayne was just another political campaign operative. He has more in common with Karl Rove than he ever did with Charlton Heston.
My interview with LaPierre is in the book. BTW, the CommonDreams link is to an out of print edition of Under Fire. I have a link to the in-print paperback one my website at http://www.oshadavidson.com/books/under-fire/
I am always confused why all of the big macho-talkers who live and die by the second amendment, most of whom seem to support the right wing politicians, care so much about the second amendment and don't seem to give a shit about the first, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, or eighth?? There never seems to be an explanation from any of the Republican supporters for this. Are they incapable of reading the whole thing or do they just get their information from the NRA? And why doesn't the NRA give a shit about the other amendments??
I'd say that there is no discussion or debate. Its been settled. Only the details need to be settled.
It would be fairly stupid to carry a shotgun around NY, but in the field or mountains, its not that bad an idea. There are places where guns are useful and places where they are not. Now its up to States/Cities to decide where and what, it was never their place to decide you couldn't have one. So I'll disagree and say its about time that the SCOTUS clarified the 2nd. amendment for those that didn't understand it.
cleanearth June 30th, 2008 9:58 am
An excellent post.
patnval June 30th, 2008 4:44 am
Couldn't agree more. Especially Now its time to determine parameters. "Lets try and do that without resorting to the 'scare tactics" used by the NRA."
PissantNobody June 30th, 2008 2:25 am
I was with you till that last paragraph! But, no one needs a .50 cal anything. I think somebody posted that they served as a sniper and I'll bet they will confirm there is only one purpose for that cal.
What would be wrong with nothing more than .30 cal, semiautomatic (though I was taught one target-one shot) because I've hunted with friends that needed more.
WmC June 29th, 2008 9:57 pm
"Once you acknowledge the individual right implicit in the 2nd Amendment, you have to concede that it admits to NO limitations."
Let me disagree with your conclusion, all freedoms and rights come with some limitations and responsibilities. There is no way under the 2nd. Amendment you should have the right to own a SAM missile or an M60. As you pointed out about yelling fire in a public place....same difference. And it will play out that way. (If thats what you meant)
In 1789- there was hardly such a thing as a hand gun.
Pistols were plentiful (no pun intended) in those days according to the records, rifled pistols were rare same. Almost everyone had a musket, but rifles were not in every hand, Most hunters carried a pistol.
susanparker June 29th, 2008 6:51 pm
We have a friend that just moved to a similar area. She asked me about the same thing, as many gave her the same advice you got.
I think a handgun is among the worst home defense weapons you could have. Especially for a lady that doesn't shoot a lot. A shotgun is much safer and fills that need much better.(especially if there are children in the house)
I thought it was a very good idea that she have something there for bears, snakes, or whomever....just in case. We checked with the Sheriffs dept. as I didn't know the area per se and they agreed with me. (you might ask your local sheriff) We got her a 20 gauge pump. Loaded with #4/buck/slug. (one box of bird shot for snakes,etc) The main purpose is the sound for human intruders, when someone hears that snick/snick action they tend to back out quickly. Thats very, very important. Because there is no way to know, no matter what you have, if you can pull that trigger. And no way you can find out without facing that moment. I hope fervently that you'd never face that decision. But I would urge you to look at a 20ga. If you need it, its too late to get it then. It is just a tool, no matter what some try to make of it. My 2 cents and unasked for at that.
maybe the inner city communities need to sue the ATF/OHS (alcohol tobacco and firearms, under the umbrella now of office of homeland security) for failing miserably to stem the illegal arms epidemic ... fast, cheap and out of control....
Opinions on the secondary effects of this Heller ruling seem to vary widely ... I can't get any answers as to what the status of already in place county-wide restrictions (as in Chicago) will be as this is sorted out.
here's a TIME magazine synopsis: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1818325,00.html
Wait and see.
It's interesting to see just how hard the government has gone after militias. The murder at Ruby Ridge. The slaughter at Waco. The crack down on militias in Michigan and so on. The right wing doesn't give a rat's ass about gun rights--just as long as we don't get together. A few inner city black kids shoot each other, it's all good to these criminals. But try to actually band together to stop Federal interference, and you're a dead man.
Most of this discussion has been rather intellectual, not based on truly practical matters.
We farmers need to be able to control predators, women need to control 2-legged marauders, everyone needs to control robbers case of home invasions, etc.
Esoteric arguments "against" guns are really quite silly since guns are easily manufactured by anyone with a little home "shop." Guns are basically simple mechanisms.
Guns cannot be eliminated, nor should they be.
People will always need to be able to defend ourselves from both human and non-human predators. And, as economic and environmental crises worsen, this will become more of a necessity.
You cant have a christian militia if they can't have guns
Malnutrition kills more children in this country than firearms. Haven't seen any headlines or SCREAMING about that.
Criminals, by their very nature, don't give a rats ass about gun control laws. They will get firearms no matter what the law says.
The U.S. is the biggest exporter of firearms in the world.
I live in Vermont. I can buy an AK47, no waiting, no permit. Check out the crime statistics here in the Green Mountains.
Finally, it is time to have a realistic discussion about what constitutes respionsible gun ownership. I learned to handle a gun at age 6. This because my father kept loaded firearms in the house. We were taught, not only respect for guns, but how to properly use them. How to check if it's loaded. How to shoot. None of us kids ever touched a gun without permission. Now I own a gun, a rifle. I'm learning to hunt. I plan on purchasing a pistol. I enjoy target shooting and am thinking about competitive shooting as a sport. The winter olympics has the biathalon....cross country skiing and... yup, target shooting.
I am not against gun control. I'd prefer it be a state issue. I glad for the ruling. Now it's time to determine parameters. Let's try and do that without resorting to the "scare tactics" used by the NRA.
I just did a satirical post on gun control (as if such a thing could be said to apply in America).
America seems to be caught in the time-warp of the Wild West. How long will it be before people again wear sixguns at their waist? Why stop there? Why not carry around RPGs?
www.dangerouscreation.com
"Nothing prevents solutions to important social problems quite so well as artificially constructed dichotomies. Nothing crushes intelligent debate or empowers extremists so completely as convincing people that there are only two sides to an issue, and that they have to pick one and then spend the rest of their lives defending it from all comers."
Exactly! This is what I hate about the garbage that the corporate media and radio hate mongers put out there in the guise of news and opinion. It totally stifles intellectual and spiritual enlightenment.
P.S. Divest your war profit stocks.
WmC wrote: 1) Regardless of what Scalia says, the Second Amendment clearly states that the right to keep a bear arms shall not be infringed. Once you acknowledge the individual right implicit in the 2nd Amendment, you have to concede that it admits to NO limitations.>>
Well, try that argument out in court and see how it flies. (Crash & burn is my guess.) There are no absolute, unqualified rights. Which, IMHO, is a good thing.
Catch made several good points that advance the debate.
At the Betty Friedan symposium I mentioned in the piece, I had lunch with three female chiefs of police. They liked my talk (despite what our host thought), but they pointed out that there is a difference between being able to squeeze a trigger and being capable of defending yourself in a violent situation. Even though officers regularly train with their weapons, the most common way they are killed in the line of duty is by their own gun -- after its been wrested from them. It takes more than minimal experience to handle a gun so that it protects you.
Angie Holt, who was at the time in charge of firearm training for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation (also pro-Second Amendment) said no one should have a gun if there's been any history of abuse, suicidal thoughts or tendencies or alcohol of drug problems in the home. She wasn't saying that it should be illegal to own a gun in those cases, but that people should be educated so that they can make intelligent decisions about something as dangerous as firearm ownership.
Why not try educating people about how or whether to approach gun ownership? I think that would save far more lives than prohibition.
[[ The war on drugs is and has always been a boondoggle as much as the similarly exorbitantly costly "star wars" and new and improved "office of homeland security" which is gaining -- and consolidating -- both with, irrc, an acknowledged black budget and beaucoup outside "contractors" ... "win" the war, game over!!! boo hiss, money dries up!!! Was ever so much money spent to accomplish so little. ]]
"Now that the right to own a gun is settled law, opposition to restrictions such as waiting periods and background checks have to be argued on their merits."
I have two problems with this line of Osha Davidson's argument:
1) Regardless of what Scalia says, the Second Amendment clearly states that the right to keep a bear arms shall not be infringed. Once you acknowledge the individual right implicit in the 2nd Amendment, you have to concede that it admits to NO limitations.
2)Proposed limitations on the 2nd Amendment are quite a bit different from limitations on all the other rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Punishing people who yell "Fire" in a crowded auditorium, for example, is considered a legitimate limitation on freedom of speech. But this principle applies to everyone equally. On the other hand, it is assumed that certain demographic groups will be ENTIRELY prevented from owning and bearing arms: foreign nationals, teenagers, and the mentally ill. This is a bit like saying that everyone has equal rights, but some have more equal rights than others. In short: a right is something everyone has. You don't have to pre-qualify. A "right" that only a select portion of the population has, is not a right at all.
susanparker: I entirely agree with you. It has been the wedge to gut the 4th Amendment and keep the lower classes under control; and we need to get rid of it. And the War on (some) Drugs is the reason slums and ghettos became little Ho Chi Minh trails.
Bumper sticker on the Taxi Saddamn Hussein was driving just before he was captured:" l'll GIVE UP MY WMD's WHEN THEY PRY MY COLD DEAD FINGERS FROM THE BUTTON". It was probably what tipped off the Americans.
There does seem to be a stream of violence inherent in human nature. And no, I'm not in any sense saying that all people are or can be violent. Any perusal of daily news reports will however turn up a small ... very small, really ... number of apparently random violent incidents. For better or worse, having a firearm on hand is a pretty effective deterrent to one of these one-in-a-million incidents. Provided of course that the owner has at least minimal experience with its use.
It can be argued that episodes where involving a gun are about as likely as being struck by lightning, or dying in a plane crash. While you can avoid lightning by using common sense, avoiding a plane crash if you have to fly, is a bit trickier. Keeping a gun in the home is another way to offset that one-in-a-million episode where we can in fact exert some control. Maybe, in a world where we're pretty helpless in many ways, there's a psychological need to "protect" ourselves in whatever way we can, even though the odds are slim that such protection will be needed.
I'm not advocating this. Just wondering if any serious thinking (i.e., research) has been done along these lines. Looking for a reason why we're the most heavily armed country in the modern world.
Pax
it's a great idea to dismantle the war on drugs, except in my opinion it has ALWAYS been a figleaf for domestic surveillance, militarization of local constabularies, increased and increasing federal/local cooperation as well as expanding (at tome covert) budgets/appropriations.
IOW, the war on drug is not "about the drugs" ... drugs are it's raison d'etre... as the conspiracy theory theme song goes, there's aiding and abetting a'happening and the minority population is being deliberately targeted and gutted ...
edited to add: I think it's not a coincidence that the W.O.D. (or War on Some Drugs as I usually say) was ramped up around the time COINTELPRO as being exposed and eventually dismantled ...
This is somehow the wrong discussion. Gun advocates cite the need to protect oneself in one's home. Gun control advocates cite the need to control street violence.
The real cause of a significant amount of street violence and burglary is The Drug War. The real question we should be debating is how to get drugs legal while keeping them out of the hands of minors. The gun problems will slowly wither away like the IRA violence in Ulster.
Then you can have all the philosophical discussions you want about the 2nd Amendment.
I live alone in a remote location .... Bears were mentioned. The bears are very real, none this year so far. (a handgun probably would do nothing more than enrage an already aggressive bear -- everyone agreed, the loud noise shot in the air might do wonders)
We do get transient squatters and people on the lam hiding out from time to time ... there are a lot of empty houses/cabins... that sometimes get broken into ... no one up here has any money .. it's not like there's any "big score" to be had or any place to sell or fence your booty.
Everyone thought I needed one .... I don't have one.
Talking to my neighbors when I moved into the mountains and was told I needed a gun...
Why did they think you needed a gun???
Ultimately it is about democracy.
A majority of the residents of DC supported the handgun law, now a small extreme minority comes along and has a popular law repealed through tricky means using courts packed with right-wing extremists from bottom to top.
Is this democratic?
talking to my neighbors when I moved into the mountains and was told I needed a gun, I noticed that
(a) they all said they had several handguns
(b) these handguns had been acquired through inheritance, trade, a long distant purchase (or in trade for other guns at a gun show), payment, left in safekeeping never retrieved.
(c) these guns were considered valuable. several meant to take one or another to gun show to get it valued.
(d) I'm doubtful ANY had any sort of papers on these guns.
While region and culture and socioeconomic levels may vary... many proposed regulations could easily be seen as seriously complicating the "liquidity" of these assets and likely thereby reducing their value.
(e) Like any hobbie or interest, there was a lot of casual conversation ... someone had a gun they wanted to sell, yada ... much as you would about puppies or horses ... it was a comfortable shared, generally male reason for talking.
I know there are people who are genuine enthusiasts (like baseball cards) and real afficiandos of brands and models and various gun technologies and "power"...
Aside from the financial value of the guns you own... I think a lot of it is "meta" stuff ... like the status of owning something rare, or expensive, or illegal or "from my dad", or bought when I had a windfall .... very very META.
ymmv
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Edited to add: I realized then that meaningful gun control, as I had previously imagined, was not going to happen ... too many guns, too many people with personal vested interest in their own little nest egg ...
You can regulate behavior. With the massive international underground gun trade, with the USA as a major major participant as manufacturer, retail source and resale market ... making any meaningful dent in handgun crime is a gigantic proposition that's gonna have to rely on behavior and not "hardware."
what's the ATF doing these days?
Osha, thank you for your article, I hope that it does spark some intelligent debate.
To the "jcrumb" individual who so eloquently made his point with all capital letters, ellipses, repeated conjunctions, and expletives. Well said sir. I hate to use the word in its own definition but you really hit the nail on the head with: "freedom is the freedom to make dangerous mistakes, to own dangerous equipment, to have dangerous ideas." You're right, we should protect our freedom to make the decision to kill others and that includes protecting our rights to the equipment that make those dangerous ideas dangerous realities. Great. Those "haters" really don't appreciate the irony of their complaints. Muskets are todays handguns, and they're claiming victories for freedom all over America today just as they did in the war for independence. I don't even validate the argument that during a war the muskets were used mostly by soldiers, because gun control today would then leave our military defenseless. Who are they to blame us for violence anyway? The air, water, and politics are a much greater threat to our freedom than a gun in the hands of a person with a few dangerous ideas.
"How unreasonable people are! They never use the freedoms they have but demand those they do not have; they have freedom of thought - they demand freedom of speech."
-Kierkegaard
Oh Man, Americans... Still think violence is the answer. Still acting like a kid that just needs to have its toys (a.k. Guns) to "protect" themselves.
I used to like guns, when I was 15 years old, but I grew up. Grow up people, guns give nothing but a false feeling of power and security, nothing more...
Personally, when the line is drawn over what gun owners can and cannot have, I hope it's blurred and indistinct. I agree---it's ridiculous to think that RKBA means a tank in every garage or a machine gun or RPG in every bedroom closet, or that it means that convicted violent felons have not forfeited that right, to be regained only through a very long and stringent probationary process. Nor would I wish to see guns in the hands of irresponsible kids or the mentally ill. But quibbling over 30-round magazines, or pistol grips, or bayonet lugs ... that's dumb.