No one here is mine ~NORMAN~

Sounds like you lost your audience ~ KEM ~

And precicely what does that mean ~NORMAN~?

(sound of crickets chirping, etc......)

~STAYING SANE IN AN INSANE WORLD~ You say I am "playing politics" by writing about the danger of the release of methane gas. That is absurd. Where is the politics in my posts? It's world politics that is preventing a solution to the problem.

You also say you think you know what I think. Sorry, you are assuming. I don't think I am doing anything but blogging comments and having discussions with others who have an interest in any particular subject. What exactly have I posted that you find to be offensive, innacurate, or self righteous?

You are offended because I replied to the insulting remarks you made to me and to others, and my saying you are "mouthy". You are mouthy, that's not an insult, ___ it's a fact. You also are a denyer of the most serious problem humanity faces or has ever faced and you tell me to "lighten up". ___ LOL.

And you say that no one gives a damn about poor you. And you advise most of us here to get a grip. ___ You are funny. If you don't wish to hear about global warming or the dangers of the Arctic's methane gas, why did you bother to come to this thread in the first place? ___ YOu wanna bitch at someone maybe?

If you find that what I may post on any subject is incorrect, state why you think so and offer to debate it sensibly. Everythng I have ever posted that concerns scientific evidence about global warming comes from literature written by experts on the subject.

It is not my personal opinions, so when you say I'm self centered, or self righteous, you are arguing with the scientists I cite, not me. What evidence do you have that what I have posted here is incorrect?

Well ~JAVA RUNNER~ You are totally wrong to deny that humanity has not caused the current global warming. Co2 in our atmosphere has doubled since 1800, that increase is from burning fossil fuels. Anything over 350 PPM of Co2 in the atmosphere is a "ticking time bomb". By burning coal and oil, humanity emits more Co2 annually than 17,000 active volcanoes the size of Hawaii's Kilauea.

I don't worry about it and drink myself to death, nor will I. I do believe global warming and the result of the Arctic's methane gas release is humanity's most serious problem and that we may have time to address it and attempt to solve it.

Now think about your commments and attitude and wonder what a child who is not gulty of what we adults have done and are doing would wonder about your opinions and wonder why you don't think we should act and stop burning coal to produce electrical power for starters.

Your opinions are those of a global warming denyer and it makes no difference what or who Al Gore is. He produced a very good educational film about global warming and stated the facts as presented by highly qualifed scientists and geologists and people like you make a mockery of it, which is no help at all.

And as for that being your last post here, suit yourself, that's your perogative. I do note you offer nothing to back up your comments. Why not address the link ~BR-001~ posted ___ argue that. ___ Let's hear it.

Argue the links I have posted. I don't offer my personal opinions on scientific issues, I cite those who are experts on the subject. If you disagree with them give some facts to back up your comments, or continue to make a fool of yourself.

KEM, I've had it with abuse from self-righteous individuals such as yourself. Your remarks were the final straw.

I'm going to try to enjoy my life, get what I can out of life, not waste my time giving a damn just to get abused.

CommonDreams makes money from all this. I just get stress. So, to hell with it.

You save the world, KEM with your posts. I'm going to try to have a life before I die, because no one gives a damn about me, so time to return the favor.

Lastly, KEM, you have no data to prove absolutely what is going to happen. That's a fact! Climate science has no equations that give absolute answers. You keep playing politics and pushing your agenda.

KEM PATRICK, fine, you SAVE THE WORLD, then, because clearly that's what you think you are doing. You need to be a bit more humble and stop being so serious. You, as an individual, and this forum, is changing NOTHING!

On this site, it's always THE END OF THE WORLD.

See you in 2020, KEM - and try to lighten up! :)

By the way, KEM, I said nothing about not acting. No wonder the right-wingers are getting their way - such arrogance and insulting remarks from chatters on here just turns people away from your message.

Don't do a Michael Jackson, and stand in front of everyone in white clothing, arms outspread, surrounded by children, trying to be Jesus Christ. It just puts people right off!

bbr-001 writes: "staying sane: They aren't saying end of the world. Methane eating microbes will do fine, and cockroaches and horse shoe crabs are the all time greatest survivors. Humanty? Maybe."

Actually, cockroaches won't do too well without humanity, as they like our warm environments. ;)

I'm just tired of this APOCALYPTIC analysis of everything. An attack on Iran: World War III! If not that, then climate change will bring about an equivalent scale of devastation or, rather, far more. If not that, then we'll find something else.

IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET!

If governments won't act, what am I meant to do? Dream up the worse scenario imaginable and drink myself into an early grave?

Kem,

Okay, I lied: I said that was my last word in this thread and here I am again; but only for clarification of what I said, not to go further. Deal?

I distinctly admitted "Mama Earth does heat up. Then she cools down again. Then she heats up again." My point is that this has been happening for as far back as we can tell and that it has never been human-caused.

I'm also implying that headlining climate change is like headlining "SIX BILLION PEOPLE WILL DIE!" Yeah, and perhaps another six billion will be born. By the way, I don't know how many millions we have already aborted because we don't recognize their right to live until they take their first breath. Nobody in this thread is sweating that threat to future generations, right?

Now, as for Mr. Gore and science workers. They were mostly reporting data, not interpretations and not political recommendations. Mr. Gore took their data and made multimedia presentations of select workers and drew some political implications. Mr. Gore and the Left then drew attention from the mainstream media and global bankers and the government when they realized they could play Human-Caused Global Warming to their own benefit the same way the neoconservatives played 9/11 to their own benefit. But whether Left or Neo-Con the goal is ultimately the same: make money for their friends and exercise more control over the rest of us. And whether Bushies or Clintons they both call this the New World Order, and so it is.

Okay, I'm giving in to temptation here to make one more point. Climate change is inevitable, so don't sweat it. Genetically modified foods and false flag ops like 9/11 are NOT inevitable. Sweat that first, then we'll worry about climate change. Besides, the same Insiders who brought us 9/11 and the phony War on Terror are inching toward a war on Iran, and both China and Russia have both said, "Nuh uh uh" to that one and have even performed joint military exercises in prep for defending Iran. Can you see what that spells?

Sweat that now; sweat planet-wide climate control later. And in the end, we all die biologically anyway so the real issues are where does life come from and what happens after this.

Sweat that more often than inevitable climate change.

Thank you for posting that link ~BR-001~.

Methane is 25 times as potent as Co2 as a Greenhouse gas, or is 2,400% more potent. So an increase of 6% of methane in our atmosphere in 2007 is alarming. As the Arctic's perma-frost continues to thaw, that percentage will likely be "far worse" this year and the next.

And Al Gore the "politician" was wrong? ___ No, he was not wrong. ___ It does not require a geologist or an atmospheric scientist to understand the seriousness of the issue. A ten year old child with an average I.Q. can understand it.

So you are saying ~JAVA RUNNER~ that global warming caused by our burning fossil fuels is a myth and that the Arctic, Greenland and Anartica are not thawing out?

Was Al Gore wrong to tell what credible scientists are reporting?

Do you have any decent links to back YOUR opinions up?

Do you deny the Arctic's methane gas release will "trigger" global warming like few have ever imagined?

Okay, my last word in this thread on Climate Hysteria. It's simple. Follow the money, okay? Just follow the money trail and ask yourself, "Who's going to make money and gain even more power and more control over our lives if we allow them to tax our 'carbon footprint?' "

I think you know the answer, and it ain't you and me. It's gonna be the Big Boys, as always. The same creeps who make money by spying on our every e-mail, phone call and credit card transaction now want to make money off us every time we exhale CO2. Dig?

Sure, Mama Earth does heat up. Then she cools down again. Then she heats up again. We are all born. Then we die. The Universe had a start, and it too will have an end. If you're looking for the meaning of Life I would urge you to look AWAY from the politicians, the corporations, and the governments that fund about 80% of the world's science workers, the same 80% who will chime in with Climate Hysteria because they know it will keep the contracts flowing. And they DID chime in; they did NOT start the hysteria. Al Gore did and he doesn't know the diff between a bona fide scientist and a plumber. He's a politician, folks, not a scientist!

staying sane: They aren't saying end of the world. Methane eating microbes will do fine, and cockroaches and horse shoe crabs are the all time greatest survivors. Humanty? Maybe.

Hey Kem: If it helps your point, NOAA is getting a little concerned about methane.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080423_methane.html

Everyone on the planet paint their roofs white? Yeah, I can see that happening. Wonder how many gallons of white paint we'd need? We could kill all of the black, red, or brown cows and chickens too.

~Stayiny Sane in an insane world~, wonder if you could post some backup data to fortify YOUR opinions?

If you would bother to check it out by reading the credible scientific reports available, you would find that what I wrote is accurate. So if you then still have smart alec remarks to make, make them to the scientists whom YOU think are stupid.

We are going to die if we don't act to correct the mess we've made. We may have time to correct it if we act very soon to replace coal burning with clean energy and then have electrical powered vehicles for our transportation needs. By clean I mean solar, wind, geo-thermal. It is feasible and it can be done.

BTW mouthy, I'm far from hysterical.

KEM PATRICK writes: "Someone posted that the Arctic thawing is not all that serious of a problem. Hmmm, sorry but some of the world's top level geologists disagree, they state that it is a most serious problem."

OK, fine, WE'RE ALL GOING DIE!!!

What do you reckon? Five years to live? That's OK. That's enough time to say our prayers and get our consciences in good order before meeting our maker.

Let me just add, I'm not saying people aren't going to suffer as a result of the present changes in the climate - they are! Mostly the poor, unfortunately. I get the feeling, however, that the poor are not the concern here.

When a couple of hijacked planes crashed into the WTC towers, we heard how America was "under attack" - NO IT WASN'T!

Let's not get all hysterical over climate change, not when it's currently unjustified.

A lot of people on here seem to be having nervous breakdowns: "THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!!! WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO??? OMG!!! MY HEAD FEELS LIKE IT'S GOING TO EXPLODE!!!!"

GET A GRIP!

Climate scientists are NOT, at present, predicting the end of the world.

Who, here, is a scientist? Because, if you're not, your opinion on this complex subject is irrelevant. Science is not politics. Science is about understanding, not opinions and agendas.

dmac and veracity---thanks for having the ears to hear, and the eyes to see.... Guess I am seeing the futility of projecting our worst nightmares. Seems worth a try to see if energizing a different set of expectations might have some sort of impact. And in the meanwhile, one avoids despair and actually inhabits (some of the time) a place of joy and light. I refuse to lend my energy to envisioning Gaia's demise. She has her ways of prevailing, even as we often fail to align with her. None of us are expected to save the world---just to take responsibility for the right use of our own energy. How would you have it be? Then start living that vision NOW.

When the ice melts- sunlight will no longer be reflected back into space in that area. It will be absorbed, causing more warming. Hence the term, 'tipping point'. Painting all our roofs reflective white can help a bit.

When all of that massive ice melts, the planet may tip.

1

C A N U C K C H U C K,

Both Atlas and Archimedes knew how that tipping dance works,

__ one just has to find that right point of leverage
__ say blackmailing the 1000 or so uber-elitists

And wo'la, they tip their hat

__ and never come back

All lives end in death, and all species end in extinction.

Humans are just a parasite on the back of the planet, and it will recover when we are gone.

glad I never had kids.

How do you "tip" a planet? Doesn't is just roll when pushed?

OBAMA IS COMING... WORRY NOT!

S T A R

I so do LOVE your boundless goodness and cheer !

What is OLD NEWS, that your posting of the 15th at 12:58 pm was expunged, likely due to my ¿ spatiness toward the SCION_istas.

It's a far worse thing that I do, if it erasing your soothing words

~ ˆ ~ ˛ ~ ˆ ~ ˛ ~ ˆ ~ ˛ ~ ˆ ~ ˛ ~ ˆ ~ ˛ ~ ˆ ~ ˛ ~ ˆ ~ ˛ ~ ˆ ~

Not working again, perhaps a new incarnation is eminent ?

Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

starofthesea, I appreciate the widsom of your point.

If even half of the worst predictions stated here are inevitable, seems to this humble Seeker that all we really have then is the sacredness of the present moment. How we inhabit the NOW is of crucial importance aside from what the future brings. And who knows? Perhaps, if we can truly honor and inhabit the present, the future will alter accordingly. I refuse to squander a single second of NOW, because NOW is precisely where my future is being created.

And even if you cannot bring yourself to believe that, you who feel that the die is cast, doesn't it make sense in the face of your perceived "helplessness" to live in harmony with WHAT IS, and trust? Beats struggling and squandering what beauty and harmony still remains.....

~Galen~ when the "fun" starts, avoid EVERY city and every state we "purchased" from Mexico.

Someone posted that the Arctic thawing is not all that serious of a problem. Hmmm, sorry but some of the world's top level geologists disagree, they state that it is a most serious problem.

When the Arctic thaws the perma-frost will become mush and hundreds of the Arctic's lakes which have been ice bound for millions of years will be open water. Millions of tons of Methane gas which had been safely locked up in the frozen earth and lakes will release into our atmosphere.

The Arctic methane gas release will not kill us off. It will however 'TRIGGER' global warming like few have ever predicted and like most of humanity is oblivious of. Methane is 25 times as potent as a Greenhouse gas as Co2 is.

Global warming will then rapidly become totally out of control and there will be no second chances. The methane in the ocean's will then "blossom" into the atmophere and that my friends will be the final straw for mankind. As has happened previously in Earth's long history, that much methane in our atmosphere is poison and "almost" all life on Earth, down to the microbal level, will be eradicated within hours. Some deep sea bacteria and worms etc, may survive.

Sources? There are hundreds of excellent sources on the subject by Googling Arctic methane gas and Michael J. Benton's book titled, "When Life Nearly Died".

And here is another, one of just hundreds of Arctic lakes where where methane gas is now spewing out into our atmophere.

http://www.farnorthscience.com/2007/09/26

This is truly frightening and horrible. How do you grieve the loss of such a beautiful, intricate, sustaining place as our earth?

I am trying to lower my children's expectations, to teach them the skills and values they will need in an uncertain future. Yet the magnitude of adjustment seems likely to be beyond what any of us can imagine. And for many on this planet, the mother's nightmare is already here.

You see so many reactions to facing such a terrible loss. I am grateful for those who have the courage and fortitude to continue to look the monster in the eye. Grateful for those who continue to try, in spite of the odds, because it is the right thing to do.

The last sentence of the piece is the key.

"We need more pressure from below and more leadership" at the top.

We have been and must continue to burn less fuel, and demand at every opportunity that our leaders (local, state and national) act responsibly by taxing polluting activities and providing tax incentives to alternatives.

maplefudge pointed us to Plan B 2.0 which does a great job outlining an effort of the magnitude of WWII to 'combat' the problem of climate change. The real problem is INERTIA as mentioned by Cedar and Malfoyd. We have the technology, but where is the will?

The is a new version of the Lester Brown book, now titled Plan B 3.0, it is required reading.
The good news is that the entire book can be freely read online and downloaded at http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/02/book_review_pla.php scroll to end of article and click on the Download Here button

Dear Future Archeologist (who finds this comment on a long forgotten hard drive buried under the remains of our former industrialized city),

We're sorry. We fucked up. Industrialization was so much fun, at least in the short run. We fastlaned, fastfooded, bargain shopped, and fastly got deluded. Sorry we left the place worse off then we found it, we just didn't have time to remedy the polluted. We got scared and built ICBM's. Watch where you step, it's still radioactive for the next 400 millenium.

Yours truly,
The Brainwashed Generation

Reposted, in case you missed it:

No one who asks "What can I do?" really wants an answer-at least not a real answer. For this reason, the charade of political candidates, elections, and the corporate media that guarantees the success of that particular con game has hypnotically entranced the electorate who overwhelmingly prefer to remain delusional. The majority take little interest in the candidates anyway, perceiving them as yet another group of celebrities. Yet even more delusional are those who call themselves progressive. These individuals are desperate to keep the show on the road and sanction its validity, and they are the ones who least want to know the answer to "What can I do?" because of what it would cost them. Consequently, they must pre-occupy themselves with "solutions" that have nothing to do with the actual state of the earth and its inhabitants but which offer a false sense of making a difference. When I think of them, I cannot help but note that as the Titanic was sinking it would have made no difference if hundreds of its passengers had collected endless buckets of water the ship had taken on and emptied it back into the sea, but it may have provided them with a momentary sense of participating in a "solution."

http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/203/

Robert Settgast: "Contrary to right wing assertions, measures to reduce greenhouse gases could only improve our economy by lessening our trade deficits, and improving our security by reducing our dependance on foreign oil."

The right wingers, i.e. the gilded elites, know fully well that responsible, sustainable forms/capacities of energy and industrial production will greatly inspire the people to get out of bed every morning and power a much stronger economy than their current mindless indentured servitude can power. The problem is that such an economy is out of the control of the gilded elites, and actually under the control of the people themselves. The gilded elites would love to expand the economy of course, but it has to be under their control and they have not yet decided to adopt the risky strategy of allowing it to expand in order to later recapture the larger prize. When they reach a certain level of desperation with their collapsing political clout they will take the risk, having little to lose. The correct approach for the people is to shift all individual exchange/assocation away from the gilded elites and toward the local communities, which keeps the political/economic power away from the gilded elites and in the local communities where it belongs. Then the most sensible forms of industrial activities may commence as in everybody's visions of utopia.

Why does the average American do nothing in the face of catastrophe? Simple. The average American watches four hours of TV after working and commuting longer than any other people in the world. Three results. 1) We have less time for civic activities than ever before; 2) We derive our world view not from our friends or fellow workers but from billionaire corporations whose profits depend on the status quo; and, most important, 3) WE ARE LOSING OUR SOCIAL SKILLS, so that solidarity is impossible.
No political opposition is of any use unless peace activists, ecological activists, labor activists all learn how to restore the EXPERIENCE of day to day, face to face community in a way that is more fun than television or even the internet. It is a science fiction struggle made real: human community which will allow us to live, versus the machine and its masters, who will certainly kill us. No, I am not a Luddite. I like the media too. But unless we first have a society in which people TALK to each other, our politics are irrelevant. We have to learn how to organize again, and it is hard because all of us, including the left, are the children of this culture. But we must start now.

civil behavior, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" does not include "civic responsibility". This is the great flaw in the US Constitution. Also, the responsibility movement has to compete with the lure of many opiates dangled by the capitalists. You can make a reasonable contribution to the responsibility movement and be happy with the outcome whatever it is, because although the contribution of any one individual is not sufficient, it is necessary. Also, keep an eye on developments and reserve some of your energy for the possible opening of larger opportunities. We might have one coming up give that the capitalist system continues to implode into its rotten core of hubris. This possibility is the silver lining in the cloud of the imperial chimp's reign.

Does the white folk's world have environmental problems now among all sorts of other problems, not that us Indians ever knew how to live wisely & properly with nature.

If people upon the earth had lived like the Tribes year in & year out then the human race would have never destroyed it's own hand by either it's nuclear weapons or destruction of the earth. Perfect flawless logic.

A long time ago around in the white folk's style of schools around the 7th grade their teachers started talking about "The Future." I just smiled because I knew they didn't know what the future was really bringing. Man's destruction by his own hand is what happens when man isn't anywhere near as smart as they think they are upon the earth.

It's all good. Anyone paying attention knows that nothing will be done about climate change. When the effects become obvious, even to the most strident deniers, it will be far too late. But not to worry, once the bulk of humanity is dead, the planet will recover. Life isn't threatened, even humanity will survive. I'd like to think that the remnants will be humbled, but considering that the survivors will likely be those that can pay for the privilege, that seems doubtful.

Leyland, please stop smoking those funny cigarettes!

Problem is our Western world is shackled to oil. It will require severe global changes to stir us into action and by then it might well be too late.

P.S. What does Of Mice And Men have to do with America? Check my blog!

www.dangerouscreation.com

Up until the age of 45 I was secular minded or non-religious, which means that I lived with the certainty that consciousness dies with the body and that there is no Supreme Being.

Then, during the month of October 1981 a formidable, transformative River of Light appeared in my mind.

By this way, the following thoughts:

"The mind's eye of our such (our consciousness) never blinks, never closes, never sleeps and never dies."

"We were never created but always were and always will be ... forever. We are immortal beings."

"We have entered humanity's next cycle. This is not another 2,000 year out-breath or out-pulse of Divine Will Intelligence; it is a Turn To Source."

"We are entering the age of woman; as in: I am Son of My Mother, nothing is higher than this."

"There will be peace on earth, universal and perpetual, up to and including last word ever spoken here."

"To murder and get away with it does not have happenability in this world. Beast in the Here : Beast in the After."

"Last shall be made first, highest shall be made lowest."

"That which is written is already written and from The Beginning."

"In Wrath of Word, come among here, all are being given actual power to destroy this world. (To worship me is to destroy me; who murders me destroys this world.)"

"Given to know, not given not to know."

"The Doubting of Doubt took all doubt away from me."

"Love is the power and infinitely so. Love is the way. There is no other way."

"Who am I? I am you. You are me."

"Humongous gas chambers have been reconstituted - out of the ashes of World War Two. (Think: Convention Centers) They are never going to be used."

"San Francisco, California is Last Place. Therefore, it is First Place. At the heart of the city is a ... gargantuan convention center."

"I also think that a light needs to be shined on St. Louis, Missouri and, as well, on the Princeton Forrestal Center."

"The end goal is world destruction in thermo nuclear holocaust."

(Over the past few years, several hundred names of people, who are or were involved in these matters, have been given to me, in dreams as well as while awake. Other information has also been made available to me by this means.)

"This world will not end."

"This world will be in a state of emergency for five years and the business of this world's people will be that of saving lives."

"Nothing before its hour, everything in its day."

"It is the thoughts themselves."

Goose2- And you are in which city? I only ask so I know which one to avoid when the 'fun' starts...

>>Galen - Having a gun at hand is one of the great failings of US society. ... So you shoot the man who is beating his child, killing him. Someone else sees you, and shoots you, thinking they are defending the man you shot. And it spreads. <<

Actually it doesn't spread. Shootings are RARELY more than two people and when there are more, the first reaction is not to add to the shooting, but to clarify the situation. I don't worry about who has a gun, because here in my community most people do in the home if not the car.

Funny you should mention that. We just got back from the Saturday night Headless Chicken races - My chicken won!

Galen June writes: "Staying-sane: Ummmm... don't bet the farm on climate change effects holding off until 2050."

Well, I did say, "IF" the severe effects kick in after 2050... ;)

I could run around like a headless chicken, but what's the point? IF things are going to get bad by 2020, it's already too late!!

www.realclimate.org

Climate scientists are NOT predicting apocalypse by 2020. However, I do acknowledge that there is uncertainty, and the magnitude of the feedback effects are unknown.

But, be careful!! If you scream, "AMERICA UNDER WATER BY 2020 - SOS!!!" and it doesn't happen, climate science will be discredited.

We've already seen a movie about climate change, "The Day After Tomorrow", depict absurd climate change scenarios that have no grounding in science. "The Day After Tomorrow" is NOT what climate scientists are saying will happen.

There is a small chance of very little change, a small chance of catastrophic change, and reality - hopefully! - lies somewhere in-between.

I'm not a scientist. I can't draw my own conclusions about this. I can only quote what the scientists - rather than the media! - are saying.

The Arctic "thawing" is NOT a sign of imminent destruction. A wake up call, most certainly!

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/06/north-pole-notes/#more-576

Kem- too bad so many other people are in the 'technology will save us' camp. They never define *what kind* of technology, do they?

It will be quite interesting to watch as all the food we now ship hundreds and thousands of miles just stops coming.

Every city, every country on Earth is only nine meals, three days, away from revolution.

And when the real shortages start, due to climate change and oil depletion, you can bet that those with the largest supply of guns (i.e. the governments) will be doing their damnedest to keep the vox populi away from their hoards, by any means, fair or foul.

And as the world's port cities become the new Atlantasi(s?), and the world economy reels under that loss, anything you do not grow, make, build or trade for yourself will be in almost impossible to meet demand.

Hang onto your audio CD's and DVD's folks. They will make great anti-crow reflectors...

Hi Kem, My home is near the ocean, about 4 meters above sea level, but I also have property in the mountains of Cebu. Originally I was reluctant to live near the ocean because of teh threat of rising sea levels but then I began thinking about it. If sea levels rise 3 or 4 meters then Every coastal city large and small in the entire world will be flooded. We are talking hundreds of million of dislocated people, not to mention loss of food and fresh water supplies. Even if you live in the mountains you are screwed. The whole world will be screwed at that point. So I might as well enjoy my life in the tropics while I can.

What's the elevation above sea level where you are now living ~EXPATINCEBU~? Have you ever been to the John Hays Air Force Base area there? That mountinous region of the Phillipines was still a paradise in the 50s.

Hi ~Galen~, excellent points about the Greenland ice and if the Antarctic ice continues to melt, as it is now rapidly doing, sea levels will rise over 200 feet within a very few years; maybe five or less?

And I agree totally, the year 2050 is a joke, 2020 may be optomistic the way the Arctic is now thawing. Have you seen the current data on that? ___ Oh-oh, apparantly the "tipping point" has already tipped.

I did my part. Two years ago I left the USA and moved to the third world (Philippines). My carbon footprint is a fraction of what it used to be. I use very little electric, no AC, no hot water. I use public transportation. Almost all of my food is produced locally. Best of all, I no longer pay one penny in taxes to support the bloated US military welfare state.

The only solution to global warming and the end of cheap energy is to abandon the American consumer suburban lifestyle. Americans are to greedy, selfish, and lazy to do this. The US faces a steep decline and collapse because of this. My advice is get out while you can.

Goose2- Having a gun at hand is one of the great failings of US society. Having a gun means many don't stop to think about the consequences of using it.

So you shoot the man who is beating his child, killing him. Someone else sees you, and shoots you, thinking they are defending the man you shot. And it spreads. Soon you have a full blown riot where the police are shooting at anything that moves.

Does this sound at all familiar? Kinda like what is happening in Iraq, maybe?

If you do have a gun, what do you use that last round of ammunition for? Yourself? Or to try and take by force the supplies you did not put by for yourself?

And with the looming (and growing awareness of Peak Oil in the MSM and general populace), how long do you think modern double base smokeless gunpowder will be in production? What do you do when there *is* no more ammunition to be had?

This is the trap of the gun. It limits you. It defines your actions.

'When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.'

My toolbox has much more in it than just a hammer...

the party is over, folks --
cheering obama to victory ain't gonna' help

Goose- My apologies. Mea Culpa.

But either way, drowned and destroyed is drowned and destroyed.

Galen - Wrong. Not 27 METERS, but 23 FEET according to Dr. Konrad Steffen, a climate scientist with the University of Colorado, Boulder. His report is available on line. Sort of a big difference.

>>kelmer - A father beat his 2 year old son to death in front of bystanders who did nothing. The tendency is that people in a group expect someone else to act.<<

Not true Kelmer. Several people tried to stop him, but they didn't act in concert. The rest were shocked. Deeply. If someone who carries a gun in their car, like me, were there, he'd be dead.

Staying-sane: Ummmm... don't bet the farm on climate change effects holding off until 2050.

Especially if the methane beds erupt, as Kem so frequently, AND CORRECTLY points out.

When we reach a major tipping point, as it appears we have, we get into a positive feedback cycle, and it accelerates in ways we have not foreseen.

Just look at the hard data on Greenland and Antarctica to see that. Those two MAJOR ice masses are breaking up and melting hundreds of times faster than climatologists initially predicted.

Bear in mind, that if just the Greenland Ice Sheet alone breaks up and melts, the world sea levels will rise 27 meters. In just a few years we will be looking at the forced abandonment of ALL major shipping ports worldwide, possible as soon as 2015. No government in the world will be able to stave of the devastation to their economy as a result of losing infrastructure on that scale. think of having twenty or so post-Katrina New Orleans in the US alone. Now think of that happening worldwide, all at the same time.

Do you begin to get the idea?

Apparently the US military uses about 350,000 barrels of oil a day. I've also read that 80% of the cargo hauled around by the military is ... you guessed it, fuel. About the same consumption as the entire nation of Greece.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/13199

Our government, which is supposed to provide for the common good, is instead rapidly killing us. The EPA fights efforts to regulate CO2. The FDA enables poisoners. The Congress is currently encouraging Bush to attack Iran and giving telecoms retroactive immunity. The military violates US law by engaging in wars of aggression. The executive branch is a bunch of right-wing nut jobs doing the bidding of AIPAC, and religious nuts who think the end of the world is near .. and that's fine by them.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

That is the answer. We need to get rid of these killers and institute a government who will promote our health and safety. I suspect that won't happen until the American sheeple are getting blown away by extreme weather, roasted by heat, dying of thirst. Then it is too late. Can we hurry this process up a bit before we and our children are completly doomed?

There is a positive side to all this: if the severe effects of global warming don't kick in till after 2050, most of us here will be very old or dead. I guess that's what Bush and his oil chums are betting on!!

"If the two sides cannot overcome current disagreements..." Based on all of history as we know it, the "two sides" will never, ever, overcome current "disagreements." They haven't even been able to overcome past disagreements yet, many of which are already over 2000 years old! Only the incredibly blindly hopeful believe all will suddenly drop what they're doing and work together to "save the planet." Sure they will - right after we all agree on which God is better...

This site:

www.realclimate.org

for a less sensationalist analysis of global warming - by the climate scientists themselves!

:o)

The Evolutionsts will BURN in the FIRES of HELL along with the Atheists who are crossing out the words, "In God We Trust" on the back of currency!!

The Lord shall protect the Earth, through the heroic efforts of the Christian Fellowship of the Media Moguls and Oil Chiefs to Banish the Princeton Scientists and their so-called "Theories"!!

Dire days ahead.

So many can't as yet believe it.

In this world the powerful say not yet,

though they too can see it...yet

it is more profitable not to believe it.

So with eyes wide open, we all await

dire days ahead... when those who profit from waiting

say "You mean us ...as well as them?"

Nature is utterly JUST. No mercy. Extinction is forever.

Kill the seas and they will die.

The utter mercilessness of nature is matched only by the mercilessness of profits.

It is far more profitable for some to continue on doing much as we are... till the tipping point HITS. The attitude tipping point I mean.

That tipping point hasn't been reached where even those who profit from this rapine of the planet, will agree that it is dire indeed.

So until enough super storms happen till everyone notices they aren't going away... until it gets so hot, so fast that when the artic is absorbing solar heat... the great tipping point will be reached.

When (Please God may it only be ...if) the ice cap on Greenland suffers a catastrophic partial collapse and sea levels rise (tsunami and a whopper too) suddenly... I'm even oil company stockholders will start screaming "Why wasn't something done"!

We change attitudes or our world changes.

Summer comes... and you know... these days ... it's starting to be something to be afraid of.

Summer comes when people die of the heat...get used to the concept.

But when summer comes the pole is laid bare to the sun and Greenland's ice looms...shaking, trmbling, floating on a meltwater submerged lake, earthquakes and ...all this heat.

Summer comes. Even if you aren't yet afraid of it, your kids and grandkids will be.

Summer comes... it's the HEAT stupid.

Yeah ain't we...eyes wide open. Watch the ice cap this summer...

and please realize that Greenland's weakening ice cap looms near.

and will for many a summer to come.

Dire days ahead.

Evolution is the tool of choice. The universe, in its journey towards greater and greater complexity reaches unknowingly towards rememberance and the realization that all is one. Maybe Leland's post about Humanity's Next Cycle isn't so far out there. Evolution still exists, it always will. Everything in creation is moved by this force. Every defunct system is eventually replaced with something of greater complexity and diversity, one step closer to Realization, one step closer to "God". The system grows and grows and finally reaches a point where it collapses and a new potential arises, and evolution is there to take advantage. Are we in the process of knowing and consiously partaking in this evolutionary process?

Is our planet on that cusp?

www.oneplanetonelife.com

I am dreaming of another "tipping point"; that being when the Dems and the Repubs outside the beltway join together and come up with a campaign slogan for the coming congressional election--something like, "No congressperson left behind." While some good congress people would find themselves out of work, the incumbents would, at least for a while, know who they had better serve if they would like to continue living in Washington at tax payers expense.

Oh! but there would be the loss of institutional memory the critics would loudly warn. To that I would reply, "Thank God".

www.StudentsForTheEarth.org

The rejection of the recent energy bill, and the Kyoto and Bali Conferences, underscore the dangerous control that special interests exercise over this administration's policies. Their distortions of scientific data typifies their unconscionable war on science.

Evidence linking carbon pollution to warming has long been as close to certain as science can be. Its causes, consequences, and mitigation requirements have been documented by many dedicated environmental organizations including The Union of Concerned Scientists.

Special interests argue that the current warming trends follow historic warming cycles, and hence reflect natural weather patterns--but they omit obvious differences: The earlier warming trends developed at slower rates which permitted the ecosystems to adapt. Morever they resulted from temporary natural events, which allowed transitions back to normal temperature patterns--by contrast, the current warming patterns result from artificial causes that will only intensify unless mitigated.

By all indicators, global warming will self perpetuate as the melting ice sheets absorb rather than reflect heat, as the melting permafrost releases more CO2 & methane, and the list goes on. Inundation of low lying areas, spread of tropical diseases to temperate latitudes, sea life destruction from changing ocean chemistry, & currents, are only some potential consequences.

Often overlooked is the fact that, the same measures needed to mitigate global warming would be necessary even if it were no issue. Conservation, alternative energy development, anti- pollution refinements, etc are essential for other vital environmental reforms such as air and water quality, reductions in toxic waste generation, land preservation, etc.

Contrary to right wing assertions, measures to reduce greenhouse gases could only improve our economy by lessening our trade deficits, and improving our security by reducing our dependance on foreign oil. We could also regain some of our lost world respect that has resulted from our rejection of Kyoto while arrogantly contributing disproportionally to carbon pollution. With our participation in international efforts, China & India could no longer use our non-compliance as an excuse for their non-participation.

The environmental and social damage from our indifference to carbon pollution can only worsen if we allow this administration, guided special interests, to continue their war against our planet.

What would wake up and mobilize our citizens? A solid week of prime time TV broadcasting devoted to climate change with graphic visuals everyone could understand and be deeply affected by. How could this take place if all corporate media has their heads in their wallets? If ALL of us bombard one network, say ABC, with phone calls, emails, faxes, and letters demanding, under pain of sponsor boycotts, that they broadcast "Our Future At The Tipping Point" for 5 or 7 straight days, including what we must do as individuals and as nations. Those of us living near ABC offices, such as in NY and LA, could also stage noisy protests on the sidewalks outside their offices and invite CBS, NBC, and CNN to cover them (Fox still denies human-caused global warming,doesn't it? So they won't be interested). If all that doesn't work, we may have to get George Soros and Bill Gates to fund our own People's TV Network. Because most Americans don't read (or vote), TV is the best way to reach and motivate them now.

JAVARUNNER

weird that posthuman video..............but take consolation that if they do manage to create some hideous black hole or something with the LHC, most people will think it's just the iran 'invasion' starting...........

The 'Tipping Point'

Greed has pushed humanity's Roller Coaster to the top of the lift and ignorant inertia will finish the job. Heckuvajob!

Leland Mellott June 28th, 2008 12:21 pm wrote:

>>In October 1981 we entered Humanity's Next Cycle. We are now very close to the moment in which what has to be done will be done.>>

Do you have a reference on that Leland?

(Limits to Growth: The 30-Year Update by Dennis Meadows places the time humanity passed the Earth's carrying capacity in that year, but I'd like to know of evidence and/or science to support what you are saying.)

A certain momentum is in place, though, and social physics probably follow the same Laws as environmental or any other physics. So, it is indeed possible that large populations may perish. If so, then be certain that those populations have already been identified and the process is underway.

I agree that prescription medication is a big part of how that will happen without any uncontrollable outrage.

JH: You got it on the nose. The planet existed long before we humans arrived and will continue long after we depart. The issue is not planetary survival. It's our own. And, quite frankly, I'm never quite sure what to cheer for.

The earth is not dying. Our ability to survive in the changing circumstances probably is. The orb will continue to exist and support life -- just maybe not the array of life we see now. The sooner we wake up to that fact of life, the sooner we might get our butts in gear. Because it is a matter of self-preservation, not any altruistic goal of "saving the planet."

Pointing fingers is rude. Ever hear of guilt by association? We all have blood on our hands. Others go without because we exist. Who can justify a full stomach while your nieghbour starves?

What we do now creates the past, for what is a shadow but present cast.

coco,

Here's a link to a New York Times article titled "At Fermilab, the Race Is on for the 'God Particle'"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/24/science/24ferm.html?_r=3&em&ex=1185508800&en=55027d835c716973&ei=508...

And here's a link to a great YouTube on Post-Humans. Sorry, I forgot to include it in my post above.
http://www.sillyconvalley.net/buildingposthumans.html

-- JavaRunner

JAVARUNNER

thanks for the link about LHC........just read about how they are going to fire it up in august..........

Yes, our beloved planet Mother Earth is dying, and we are crucifying Her. How insensitive of us. But yes, we too are all dying. Just think of it, in fifty to another 90 years everybody reading these words will have long been dead along with our Blessed Mother. Add another 15 billion years and our entire Universe will either have collapsed into a Black Hole leading us all into the dimensionlessness of a Grand Singularity -- http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/13/science/sci-collider13 -- or will have expanded into the Infinitude of cold Outer Space. Such a dreadful fate we humans are subject to. Tax us to Heaven! So the Left.

But we know the Right is right...right? Long before the demise of Heaven and Earth we will all either have been annihilated by the Islamofascists with their incipient nuclear weapons and Black Magic Carpets or we will have been overrun by mad border-protecting Patriots -- lately referred to as White Al Qaeda. Oh my heavens, it's those White Qaeda that scare me the most. Sniffle, sniffle. Throw 'em all in FEMA camps and nuke us to Heaven! So the Right.

Golly gosh who will deliver us from both the Left and the Right? I know. The Post-Humans shall. Yes, those glorious New Age Post-Humans, they shall save us at last! Glory be to Her Highness Technology, Who shall download our consciousnesses to quantum computers and resurrect us Yuppies in our new immoral nano-bodies! Yes, yessss, Oh Yes! Masters of the Universe be glorified together with Her Highness Technology!

Umm...see you in sillyConValley(); www.sillyConValley.net

Ever think about why the Bushies seem to be so unconcerned about election results, public confidence, war costs and Global Warming?

They are so totally unconcerned about Us People because they are focused on 'their' own agenda, World Domination, and their Final Solution to Global Warming is to eliminate/kill 5,000,000,000 to 6,000,000,000 Human Beings, dramatically reducing the Worlds Human Population.

If there were ever a time that justifies revolution, it is NOW!

We NOW need more Brave/Honest leaders to step foreward and Lead!

I keep seeing these articles about heading toward a tipping point and wondering when it will actually be reached. My own, admittedly unscientific, observations and interpretations of everything I've been able to find on the subject tell me that we may already have crossed the point of no return -- especially when the high level of responsive inertia is considered.

civil behaviour -

I like this thread! For once, people here are actaully condidering the things that need to be done.

As long as the questions are about how we can solve this problem through 'legitimate channels', the problem will just get worse. It's time to get energized. We all share this planet. Truly, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Riding your bicycle is no longer enough. If someone is pointing a gun at your family, it's not enough to be reasonable and expect things to work out all right. It's time to take action!

A father beat his 2 year old son to death in front of bystanders who did nothing. The tendency is that people in a group expect someone else to act.

Most people just expect the high ups to do something. Whether the high ups expect someone else to do something is the real question. God maybe?

Maybe God expects someone else to do something--which is why the planet is the way it is.

civil behavior writes: How do we get the 75% of people in this country (US) who make less than $65K a year (fact), the ones who are really hurting from the policies of this plutocratic oiligarchy( no typo) to raise up as one?What is it going to take? Their very environment is being decimated by the greed of fossil fuel industry and they simply sit silent. What do we need to do? Someone please tell me........

Throw away your meds. People will not rise up because they are sedated with pharmaceutical lobotomies, aka antidepressants, to keep them in conformity with the dictates of the corporate-congress death culture. Overall use of antidepressants continues to grow, with over 200 million prescriptions dispensed in the United States last year, according to IMS Health, the premiere health care information company.

Most of these people have nothing wrong with them at all other than that they just can't cope with their criminally insane Uncle Sam.

No wonder the big shots are buying up estates on the Eastern slopes of the Andes down Argentine way...make a bunch of bucks, and then ride out the storm in (what they figure) will be the safest area on the planet.

Those of you who contribute messages here might look after yourselves by hiring on as servants down there.

(And as I type this I look up to see yet another US military plane penciling a contrail high over our northern skies, leaving more deceptively harmless looking silver white lines of waste in the blue...every 40 or so minutes...military sure puts a lot of waste into the environment...what are those planes up to up to?)

Throw a few days military spending at the problem! Heck, a whole week!

Stiglitz's estimated 3 trillion dollars burned for nothing in Iraq would have provided a hundred million dollars a day every day for eighty-two years! Any dreamers among us wouldn't like to be endowed with $100M to try to make a dent in the problem? What about 29'900 dreamers with $100M?

CANCEL THE OLYMPICS BECAUSE OF THIS GLOBAL EMERGENCY. That'll make the sheep look up.

Begin a 'Manhattan Project-scale push for clean energy sources. Solar, Wind, Geothermal - all have been completely starved for research funding. We have no idea what our energy alternatives might be. We have barely scratched the surface of possibilities and technologies.

A comprehensive plan to counter Global Warming exists. A lot of the heavy lifting has been done already. Please check out:

http://www.earth-policy.org/Books/PB2/index.htm

Personally I would like to switch careers and be a part of the solution. But a month without a paycheque and I'm living in a fridge box. That's the real trap. How do we all act fast enough, make the changes, without the whole web collapsing? We have a social safety net in Canada but it is really more of a social safety hankie and it's easy to miss. But waiting for the marketplace to solve GW is not going to do it. The Decline of Man is being managed by Exxon, Monsanto et al - and it is very profitable and thus cannot be stopped without, you know, chopping off a lot of rich fat heads. I guess what we need is a list of heads. Recent threats to arrest the CEO of Exxon for crimes against humanity are a terrific start.

The half-wits running the government and the corporations don't care about auto workers or anybody else losing her job.

What they care about---the only thing they have ever cared about is cheap labor and higher corporate profits.

What is hard to understand is how they think their money will help them when the planet is ten to twenty degrees warmer. There won't even BE a bottom line when it is really time to pay up.

Interesting that so many of the warnings are couched in economic terms, like Stern's focus on GDP.

Hundreds of millions of people are going to die as a direct result of massive climate change. It's not improbable that most of the human race, and most species, will die, especially given the unwillingness of civilization to face the problem squarely and honestly.

But what we hear about in the media is economics. "Harumph, harumph, a lot of people could lose their jobs if we change the way we act, harumph harumph."

Let's see - end of civilization, end of species, destruction of the biosphere, versus a bunch of autoworkers losing their jobs. I dunno, that's a real tough fucking decision - at least it is for the half-wits running the government and the corporations.

I've already posted my comments on this "most important" issue on yesterday's article tilted, "No Ice At The North Pole". It's still here, lower left side of the screen.

Some others posted some great links on the subject, very informative and educational.

I'm with ricg.

The Earth is going to incinerate and everything on it will be burned up until this planet is like Venus. Then again the US might lose some money. Well, if you are dead money sure as heck does not mean a whole lot.

We have a whole bunch of greedy demons running this country, and the same greedy demons are destroying our planet with their narrow-minded viewpoint.
At some point people will have to say the planet or continue playing the game with the greedy demon. The planet we live on and we need to survive or the greed monsters that run this country. Someone somewhere will decide that the demons need to be destroyed to save the planet even non-violent types. The good of the many outweighs the wants of the few. The few if they are so powerful to block every movement towards cleaning up our planet will be destroyed for the needs of the many.

civil behavior

One way would be to tie congressional saleries to some multiple of average income. You might also require that health policies offered to elected officers must also be offered to their constituents at the same cost.

In October 1981 we entered Humanity's Next Cycle. We are now very close to the moment in which what has to be done will be done.

How do we get the 75% of people in this country (US) who make less than $65K a year (fact), the ones who are really hurting from the policies of this plutocratic oiligarchy( no typo) to raise up as one?

What is it going to take?

Their very environment is being decimated by the greed of fossil fuel industry and they simply sit silent.

What do we need to do?

Someone please tell me. Please write me and tell me how we can unite and stop this madness.

CD doesn't allow email addresses written properly so here I am in disguise!! civilsocietyATbellsouth.net