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Today's Top News
Israeli Settlement Activity Surges Despite Peace Talks
TALMON, West Bank - Blue and yellow signs advertising new homes pepper the narrow West Bank roads that wind up to gated hilltop Jewish settlements."A new stage is on its way," boasts one billboard promoting a dozen homes being built in this small Israeli settlement not far from Ramallah, the de facto Palestinian capital.
As construction workers press ahead with work on these modest townhouses, telephone salesmen dismiss any concerns that Israel's pledge to restrict settlement construction in the West Bank could halt the building.
"We have all the permits we need," said Alon, a salesman for the new homes who fielded a call from McClatchy but didn't give his last name. "All of our projects can continue."
In the six months since President Bush launched his late-term diplomatic initiative at Annapolis, Md., Israel has dramatically accelerated the construction of homes on land that's central to any peace deal with the Palestinians.
In the 11 months before the Annapolis summit, Israel sought bids to build fewer than 100 homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which Israel took from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War, according to Israeli government figures. Since Annapolis, Israel has asked companies to start building more than 1,700 homes, a 1,600 percent increase.
In the first three months of this year, after Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that he'd rule on all building projects, construction companies started work on nearly 500 new homes in existing West Bank settlements, a 90 percent jump from the first three months of last year.
Since Olmert took direct oversight of West Bank settlement construction nearly six months ago, he's approved every project that's reached his desk from the Housing Ministry, whose responsibility includes construction around Jerusalem. The Defense Ministry, which is responsible for overseeing construction in the West Bank, didn't provide the numbers of housing units it's asked the prime minister to approve. But the prime minister's office could cite no project that he's rejected this year.
Olmert has imposed a limited ban on new settlement activity, but his order hasn't affected the expansion of major settlement blocks or the area around central Jerusalem, which he wants to retain in any deal with the Palestinians.
"They're building quickly," said Walid Natshei, an Arab construction worker from East Jerusalem who's helping to erect apartment buildings in Modiin Illit, a major settlement that recently was declared the fourth official Jewish city in the West Bank.
Olmert expects that major Jewish population centers, including Pisgat Zeev, Modiin Illit and Maale Adumim, will become part of Israel. But Palestinian negotiators haven't agreed to that, and are fighting to retain as much West Bank land as they can.
"When you get into serious negotiations, does anyone really think that areas like Pisgat Zeev or Modiin Illit or Maale Adumim are not going to remain under Israeli control? It's almost an international consensus," Olmert spokesman Mark Regev said. "If Israel was creating aggressive new facts on the ground it would be one thing, but we are building either in Jerusalem or in the large settlement blocks that are in that consensus."
Construction also continues, however, in smaller settlements on remote West Bank hilltops that Palestinians expect to become part of a new state.
The Bush administration has rebuked Olmert for pushing ahead with new building plans without considering the impact on peace talks with the Palestinians.
Earlier this week, French President Nicolas Sarkozy warned Israel's parliament that "there cannot be peace without an immediate and complete halt to settlement" building.
Olmert aides argue that he has a record of reining in unregulated settlement expansion. In the last year, he's eliminated government incentives for Israelis to move to settlements and has taken direct control over approving new construction.
"The Israeli government has gone farther than any previous Israeli government to bring under control unchecked growth in the settlements," Regev said.
"There's no political decision here," Regev added. "I've heard the prime minister say that anyone who promises to stop growth can't deliver because of the population growth and the needs of the city."
The ongoing construction, however, also reflects the nature of Israel's political system. Instead of building confidence for peace negotiations, Israeli leaders build settlements to shore up their domestic support, said Gershom Gorenberg, the author of "The Accidental Empire," a recent book on the birth of the settlement movement.
"What we're seeing is a classic example where a diplomatic initiative has the effect of accelerating settlement construction," Gorenberg said. "When there is a fear or suspicion that a diplomatic process might actually take place, however unlikely that seems to outside observers, there is a tendency among settlement supporters within the government to try to speed things up."
One of the places that are experiencing major pushes is Modiin Illit, where workers are building a new neighborhood and more than 1,000 units on West Bank land that's been the focal point of legal challenges and protests.
"There is no freeze here," said Yaakov Guterman, the mayor of Modiin Illit, who said the ban didn't apply to his settlement because it was built on undisputed land.
Expansion isn't uniform, though, even in the biggest settlements.
The number of people moving to the West Bank settlement of Ariel has leveled off in recent years because Israeli leaders have refused to approve expansion projects, Ariel Mayor Ron Nachman said.
"I have a stock of 3,000 apartment buildings to build and I don't have a permit," complained Nachman, who's received permission from Olmert to build only 50 housing units so far this year.
Modest construction also is quietly proceeding in some smaller settlements deeper in the West Bank on land that ostensibly would become part of a new Palestinian state.
In Talmon, for example, a settlement with about 800 residents on a hilltop between Modiin Illit and Ramallah, construction workers have gotten approval from Olmert's office to continue building a dozen homes being advertised by Amana, a settlement construction company.
Asked whether there was any possibility that construction could be blocked, Amana salesman Alon was adamant.
"No, no, no, of course not," said Alon. "We can build them; we have all the papers."
McClatchy special correspondent Cliff Churgin contributed to this report.
© 2008 McClatchy Newspapers
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34 Comments so far
Show AllI wonder, if for once, we could have some posts from Israeli government supporters, apart from the juvenile ones that habitually arrive?
I really would like to hear a reasonable, honest and fair articulation of Israel's position.
OK, jlocke123, I'm an Israeli supporter. I'll try to answer honestly. Before I'll do that I just want to emphasize that I'm in favor of a Palestinian state living in peace alongside Israel.
Talmon is a settlements very close to the 1967 borders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmon
There is nothing holy about the 1949 cease fire lines.
- Before 1948 Jews lived in the west bank (They were ethnically cleansed by Jordanian and Palestinian before and during 1948 - The Jewish quarter in Jerusalem, Hebron and Kfar Etzion to name a few)
- The fact that the land in question was cleaned of Jews for 19 years, between 1948 and 1967, doesn't mean that from now until the end of time it should remain free of Jewes.
- In 1948 the west bank was occupied by Jordan.
- In 1967 the west bank was occupied from Jordan by Israel.
- In 1988 Jordan declaired it no longer claim ownership over the west bank. (Which is now, legally, a disputed territory between the Paletinian athority who control 41% and Israel who control 59% of it)
1949 cease fire lines (1967 border) are not the optimal border between Israel and the future Palestinian state.
- Today in the west bank there are 2.5 million Palestinian and 500,000 Jews.
- In Pre-1967 Israel, there are 6 million Jews and 1.2 million Palestinians.
In the final peace agreement, I believe that the big Jewish settlement blocks will remain under Israeli control. (Maybe 10% of the west bank) and perhaps in return some territory from pre-1967 Israel, will be added to the Palestinian state.
This is why I don't see a problem with construction within the big settlement blocks (As long as no land is taken by force from its legal owner)
As usual, they will steal more land and then wonder why the Palestinians are pissed. And folks like Letto and his/her boyfriend will come defendnig these thefts. Letto, when are you moving to live with your Jewish overlords? Or is it that you can't live there because you are NOT a jew but a wannabe....?
All fine and good Letto, but you conveniently forget to mention that Israel controls the West Bank - otherwise the West Bank would be named Palestine right? Israel control Gaza also. As part of the deal that Jews throughout the world would lay claim to Palestine after WW2 - supposedly for something that has happened to them in EUROPE that was semi-justified anyhow - Palestinians would have complete autonomous control over SOME land in what is today Gaza, Israel, and the West Bank. After 60 years, the Israeli Government controls ALL THREE places mentioned and Palestinians have yet to have control over ANY OF THESE THREE sections of land. Again, Palestinians do not have autonomous control over any piece of what is today "Israel," whether it would be Gaza, West Bank, or Israel. Just so you know...
By the way Letto, you should see a plastic surgeon, if you are of Jewish descent as you say you are.
horrified, I'm too against stealing of land. And I don't support all settlements. (I appose settlements which were build on Palestinian owned land)
But if a Jew is returning to his home which he was ethnically cleansed from in 1948 or 1929 - It's not stealing.
And if a Palestinian is putting a large "For Sale" sign, and a Jew buy the land at asking price and moved there - It's not stealing.
Also
- I don't have Jewish overlords (unless you refer to my wife)
- Unlike your falsify claims - Non Jews can immigrate to Israel.
Since 1990s some 300,000 Christians and more than 100,000 Muslims immigrated to Israel. Including Muslim refugees from Bosnia and Sudan.
I try to remain loyal to facts. Shell we examine them Ahuramazda?
Ahuramazda, "Israel controls the West Bank - otherwise the West Bank would be named Palestine right?"
Facts: Israel control 59% of the west bank and the Palestinian Authority control 41% of it.
Excluding east Jerusalem (Which is a complicated subject), 96% of the Palestinians in the west bank are living under the Palestinian authority rule and not under Israel.
By the way, "West Bank" is a Jordanian name.
The Israeli name is actually "Judea and Samaria"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank
---
Ahuramazda, "As part of the deal that Jews throughout the world would lay claim to Palestine after WW2 - supposedly for something that has happened to them in EUROPE that was semi-justified anyhow"
The land of Israel was a Jewish land long before the Arab occupation of 640. Jews claimed to return to their homeland after many years in exile.
Appose to your WWII theory, Zionism started in the in the late 19st century.
You may or may not know that fact, but world war II actually took place between 1939- 1945.
---
Ahuramazda, "By the way Letto, you should see a plastic surgeon, if you are of Jewish descent as you say you are."
Thank you for your racist comment. Would you care to elaborate?
Ahuramazda, "Israel control Gaza also"
Not true. Gaza is controlled my the Hamas.
The Gaza Strip is not recognized internationally as part of any sovereign country. It is claimed by the Palestinian National Authority as part of the Palestinian territories, though following the June 2007 battle of Gaza, actual control of the area is in the hands of the de facto government dominated by Hamas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
~ LETTO ~
I suppose you must be right, certainly never left.
But who's building all of those "fences"
__ on the West Bank,
__ the Palestinians ?
Namaste
Letto,
Hamas may be in control of the people but Israel controls all borders, economy, AND water in GAZA. The BS that Israel does not control Gaza is just that; BS. When you control air, land and sea, you are an OCCUPYING power. The rest of the world are not as stupid as you would like to think.
So Letto...Israeli Zionist Jew. You chose to respond instead of shutting the mouth under the ugly huge nose you have huh?
Once the USA goes bankrupt several years from now and Israel will have no other nation supporting it (after all, who likes filth such as yourself and the Hebrew/Jewish/Israeli people but the Americans), the world will have to, again, (since your people have not received the message several times throughout History), commit genocide against your people (the greedy scum that you inherently are! Perhaps it is your nose that is the reason your kind embodies all the negativity that human beings can aspire to) for not treating the Palestinian people as human beings and the RACIST views the Israeli Jew Zionists have toward Arabs and Persians. The hatred of Persians by Zionists is all too common with those who affilate with Zionist pieces of s*** like you! Maybe the Jews should go through an extermination campaign again as they obviously have not learned their lesson!
The Jews will be the culprit if humanity goes into extinction and planet Earth goes through nuclear winter. After all, Jewish people throughout the world want Israel to drop nuclear bombs on Iran as soon as possible due to ISRAELI PARANOIA! Yes, Adolf Hitler did warn the world in the nineteen-twenties of possible consequences if the Jews were ever to control Palestine - but the world refused to listen obviously. Now, Jewish individuals control most of worldwide media, have significant control over global economies AND is threating nuclear annihilation of another nation with the nukes that the USA GAVE ISRAEL!
Letto. Shut up big nose...seriously!...a******
horrified: "Hamas may be in control of the people but Israel controls all borders"
Not true. Egypt control the southern border of the Gaza strip.
----
horrified: "When you control air, land and sea, you are an OCCUPYING power."
- First of all Israel DOES NOT control the land.
- Second, what you describe is a partial siege and not an Occupation. Please check the dictionary for the deferences.
OCCUPYING POWER is that you have a large building in the middle of Gaza with a large Israeli flag on top of it. You should see Israeli troops in Gaza city + the security police + all civil workers, should be under Israeli control. Surly you don't suggest that the Hamas is getting its order from Olmert.
Regardless, the topic of this article is the Settlement in the West-Bank and not the partial siege of the Gaza strip.
---
hummer dumber, I'm not sure what you want. I didn't talk about any fences or "fences".
If you're referring to the security barrier AKA "the Wall"- Is is being built by Israel.
Ahuramazda "So Letto…Israeli Zionist Jew. You chose to respond instead of shutting the mouth under the ugly huge nose you have huh?"
"your big-greedy scum that you are"
'The Jews will be the culprit if the humanity goes into extinction."
"Jewish people throughout the world wish for Israel to drop nuclear bombs on Iran"
"Adolf Hitler did warn the world in the nineteen-twenties of the consequences of Jewish control over Palestine - but the world refused to listen. Now, Jewish individuals control both worldwide media, have significant control over global economies AND is threating nuclear annihilation of another nation"
"Maybe the Jews should go through an extermination campaign again as they obviously have not learned their lesson!"
"Letto. Shut up big nosed piece of shit…seriously!…a******"
---
Thank you for exposing your true face.
You are aware, I hope, that CD is a liberal / progressing site and not a neo-Nazi / KKK racial hate site, where you might feel more at home.
Regarding Letto June 27th, 2008 1:29 pm,
I don't see much there that I disagree with actually. The devil of course is in the details. The trouble is I think you will find that what you are describing could not be described as the current Israeli government's position, at least I can't see how it "jives" with the current actions of the Israelis. For example, Israeli settlers have doubled in the occupied territories since Israel pledged to stop colonizing the area.
Regarding posts on this thread, I'm disappointed actually that it is the "anti-zionists" or whatever you call yourselves that have let the side down this time. I apologize on behalf of humanity, letto.
Again if the world goes through nuclear fallout, it will wind up being the fault of the citizens of Israel. It was merely a prediction. Oh and uhh..Letto the fact that you are of Jewish descent destroys all YOUR credibility.
By the way, Letto, how is the plastic surgery going in regards to your nose? Hmmmmm...?
… So it's the Palestinians land, but the Israeli's are building this "PEACeE WALL" on their land, why is that ?
jlocke123, thank you for your comment. I don't work for the Israeli government so I don't have to agree with everything they say or do (And I don't)
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Ahuramazda, "Letto the fact that you are of Jewish descent destroys all YOUR credibility."
Why is that? Is it because Jews are unable to speak the truth because of their long noise?
As for your aspiration to see all the Jews dead - See where is Hitler today.
---
hummer dumber,
"… So it's the Palestinians land, but the Israeli's are building this "PEACeE WALL" on their land, why is that ?"
- It is not Peace wall. It was built to save lives. The barrier separate between suicide bomber and their victims. It stops between 80% and 100% of the suicide bombers. (Hundreds of lives a year)
- Once there is peace, and the Palestinians will stop the terror campaign, the barrier will be dismantle So it is reversible,- unlike people who die in suicide bombing who can't be brought back to life.
Ahuramazda:
Advocate passionately for your cause, by all means. But if you are going to resort to centuries' old name-calling (pointing out that Jews have big noses) perhaps this progressive website isn't for you. There are lots of sites where you can engage in immature and pointless stereotypes. I think most people come to this website because they are looking for something a little bit more meaningful and intelligent than that.
Let's discuss the issues based on rational thought processes and our own experiences...not based on the size of others' noses.
FYI, excerpt from a presentation on what's really going on in Occupied Palestinian Territories.
The anti-semitism claimed by the Israelis is just cover for good ol' theft of land and water!
curmudgeon99 "The anti-semitism claimed by the Israelis is just cover for good ol' theft of land and water!"
Can you bring any evidence to support your claim that Israelis said that they should steal land and water because of anti-semitism?
Letto, well-argued. The following points should be made all the same -
"There is nothing holy about the 1949 cease fire lines."
Except that they were the provisional boundaries of the State of Israel that was recognized by the United States, the Soviet Union and the rest of the UN in 1948. Israel for all intents and purposes established its statehood within those boundaries before 1967. The PLO accepted Israel's statehood within those boundaries; it underlies the Oslo agreements.
For Israel to deny that it has any importance is to deny itself the benefit of secure borders - since it has no defined borders, it can have no secure borders.
"Before 1948 Jews lived in the west bank" - true. It was ironically, a result of the Zionist insistence on a "Jewish" state, as opposed to a state for all its inhabitants. Since the West Bank was not part of the UN's Partition Plan, it followed that if the Jewish State could expell Arabs from the Jewish state, then Trans-Jordan could expell Jews.
The claim made by Zionists that this expulsion was unjustified and the expulsion of the Arabs was justified, doesn't fly. If according to the Nuremberg Trials, the expulsion of Polish Jews from Germany (prior and contributory to the Krystallnacht) was a crime against humanity, then so was the expulsion of the Arabs from Mandatory Palestine.
"But if a Jew is returning to his home which he was ethnically cleansed from in 1948 or 1929 - It's not stealing." Nor would the return of Palestinians to the homes from which they were ethnically cleansed in 1948. But Zionists claim that this would "destroy" Israel, and thus the fact of repatriation becomes "genocide". It infuriates me, that claim.
But I seriously doubt that the Kahanists causing trouble in Hevron ever had anything to do with Hevron before the last forty years, within the last two thousand years. Or before then - Judaism won a lot of converts during the early years of the Roman Empire (pre-Common Era), and most of them lived where they lived before their conversion.
You haven't established am immediate family connection between the settlers and the land they are settling.
"The land of Israel was a Jewish land long before the Arab occupation of 640. Jews claimed to return to their homeland after many years in exile."
See my point above. At what point in time does my hypothetical connection with the land/s of my ancestors become a dead fire - to use a Polynesian metaphor I am fond of?
If I can find a claim to Nordalbigensian ancestry and therefore land north of the Elbe River in North Germany, when the last time those ancestors saw that beautiful land was when Charlemagne - Carl the Butcher - drove them off their land into exile for opposing his imperial designs on the Saxon Confederacy, would that mean I have a claim to that land by having those people in my ancestry? If those self-same ancestors then made a life for themselves in Aquitainia and then followed the Plantagenets to England following the collapse of English fortunes in France during the Hundred Years War, does that entitle me to turn up and live in Aquitaine, France, no questions asked?
On the other hand, if I have a provable relationship to a rabbinic family in Poland, a highly-respected rabbinic family - which happens to be the case -, I can apparently turn up, no questions asked (or so it seems) to Israel, and settle anywhere that Israel permits within Israel or the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
The only other nation-state I know of that permitted something even remotely similar, was the Federal Republic of Germany, and they gave it away as unworkable due to the influx of non-German-speaking Volga Germans - Russian in everything except ancestry. Look it up.
"The fact that the land in question was cleaned of Jews for 19 years, between 1948 and 1967, doesn't mean that from now until the end of time it should remain free of Jewes."
I agree wholeheartedly. But, on the other hand, this is territory that the PLO has claimed - successfully - for the Arab state they were denied as a result of the 1948 Naqba. If Jews were to settle in this territory, you would expect they would take an active part in contributing to the community they were joining. It is what the Sephardim did quite successfully since CE 640 in every one of the lands they lived in.
Instead, we see what we see - high-class ghettoes, from which the religious Jewish fanatics harass Palestinian farmers, or the secular Jews ignore them and hope they go away.
And so the problems grow.
Duramater,
Thank you for bringing to light part of the complex situation, where imbalances that favor Israel tip that way, while those against the Palestinians also tip that way.
It appears to be more a battle of words and history -- than mere rocks, rockets, and blood.
PEACE seeking people are not ideologues ( intransigently positioned ) and are best known for compassion, forgiveness, caring for the greater good, and honesty.
I'm please to make your acquaintance, as you are truly a PEACEMAKER, of which thousands are needed to move forward.
Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
DuraMater, I didn't say that the 1949 lines have no significance.
I said they are not holy and that they are not the optimal border, and I explained why.
It's too expensive and painful and inhuman to expel 500,000 Jews from the west bank, and 1,200,000 Palestinians from pre-1967 Israel.
UN's Partition Plan (UN general assembly resolution 181) is a non binding resolution. And bescide, it was rejected by the Arab league and by the Palestinian leadership who chose war (and lost) therefore its not relevant any more.
Show me one casino that give back money to a gambler who knowingly went in, place a bet and lost, and than we'll talk.
---
DuraMater, "The claim made by Zionists that this expulsion was unjustified and the expulsion of the Arabs was justified, doesn't fly."
Agree. And so does the claim made by Arabs where expulsion of 856,000 Jews from Arab countries was justified, while the expulsion of Palestinian was not.
Both problems should be addressed.
---
DuraMater, "But if a Jew is returning to his home which he was ethnically cleansed from in 1948 or 1929 - It's not stealing." Nor would the return of Palestinians to the homes from which they were ethnically cleansed in 1948."
I never said that if the Palestinians returns to their homes - it should be names stealing. I don't think any Zionist said so.
---
DuraMater, "But Zionists claim that this would "destroy" Israel, and thus the fact of repatriation becomes "genocide". It infuriates me, that claim."
Some say so. For the moment there is a lot of hatred between the people. And some Palestinians who immigrated to Israel during the 1990's did revert to terror.
---
DuraMater, "You haven't established am immediate family connection between the settlers and the land they are settling."
No I didn't. I'm sure there are many such families in the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem.
I also said that Jews who move to a land which was legally bought with consent from the legal owner who wanted to sell (of Jewish, Palestinian or any other nationality) is also NOT stealing.
Are you saying that the Settlers from Heron stole the land on which they live today from the Jews who lived there until 1929?
---
DuraMater, " If those self-same ancestors then made a life for themselves in Aquitainia and then followed the Plantagenets to England following the collapse of English fortunes in France during the Hundred Years War, does that entitle me to turn up and live in Aquitaine, France, no questions asked?"
If you find someone who sell you land in Aquitaine, France, sure, why not?
---
DuraMater, "The only other nation-state I know of that permitted something even remotely similar, was the Federal Republic of Germany, and they gave it away as unworkable due to the influx of non-German-speaking Volga Germans - Russian in everything except ancestry. Look it up."
And your point is?
Are you saying that an independent country have no right to set its own immigration laws?
Each county has its own reason for setting up it own unique immigration laws. If you are interested specifically with the Israeli law, I would advise - learn history.
---
DuraMater, "But, on the other hand, this is territory that the PLO has claimed - successfully - for the Arab state they were denied as a result of the 1948 Naqba."
The PLO was founded in 1964 not in or before 1948. I don't know what makes you say they successfully claimed it. For the moment they were only successful to claim 41% of it, as per the Oslo accord.
Ad for the Naqba / Israel's war of independence - the Palestinian leadership were NOT denied a state.
They rejected UN partition plan and went to a war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine and lost.
---
DuraMater, "Instead, we see what we see - high-class ghettoes, from which the religious Jewish fanatics harass Palestinian farmers, or the secular Jews ignore them and hope they go away."
I don't like the Jewish fanatics, and I think that any Jew who harass Palestinians should go to jail.
In the mean time, Palestinians hope they go away.
And so the problems grow.
Letto:
"Show me one casino that give back money to a gambler who knowingly went in, place a bet and lost, and than we'll talk."
Not a completely apt metaphor. When the dice are loaded, and shown to be loaded, casinos do it willingly. It would take a lot of time to explain what I mean, but Tom Seger's "One Palestine, complete" covers a lot of the territory I would otherwise need to cover.
What must really grate for Palestinians is the blithe insistence of the Versailles Conference and the associated powers that foreigners had more right to speak on the issue or Palestine than the Palestinians themselves.
"Are you saying that the Settlers from Heron stole the land on which they live today from the Jews who lived there until 1929?"
The Jewish community that lived in Hevron were dispersed in 1929. From what I can make out of Islamic law, that was completely unjustified - because they were living according to the general principles of the Medina al-Yathrib treaty, which grants non-Muslim communities full and equal rights in Muslim countries. They should be compensated.
But the modern Kahanists in Hevron are not related to the earlier Hevron Sephardim. Why should extremist Ashkenazim claim the rights and privileges of Sephardim? Let alone their land? And again, as far as I can make out, they didn't buy the land they are using.
Simply claiming that Jews used to live in Hevron, therefore a totally different set of Jews should be allowed to come in and take the city over, is twisting the argument. It seems only two sets of people use "Jews" in quite that way, without separating into individuals and families - Zionists and anti-Semites. Not pleasant company. I request you change your habits.
"If you find someone who sell you land in Aquitaine, France, sure, why not?"
"And your point is?
Are you saying that an independent country have no right to set its own immigration laws?"
My point is that out of 155 plus nation-states, only one that I know of, has even approached the Israel Law of Return in comprehensiveness and ethnic derivation. And that one - the Federal Republic of Germany - gave it up because it was unworkable. Don't get me started on the nineties "Russian Jews" fraud. Rabbis are only human, and in this case, some were bought.
As far as Aquitaine goes, yes, that is also a very beautiful land, and I would like to see it one day. (It must be a powerful loyalty that drives a man to follow his commander overseas into exile, willingly.) I imagine the French government might insist on demanding answers to a more demanding set of questions than were ever asked of the "Russian Jews" during the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Letto - what I sense, lound and clear, is that you genuinely tried to clarify things and responded to a question posed here. You answered respectfully and honestly.
What ended up happening is that people (with nothing invested and nothing to lose) piled up on you and exposed a lot of really ugly sides of themselves. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, but I'm sure there are others here who find the vitriol poured on you gratuitous, bigoted, and more representative of the demons in their own heads than the demons haunting Israel/Palestine.
I strongly feel that Israel has been less than fair, forthright or honest, and is actually conducting a vicious and calculated campaign of genocide in, especially, Gaza. I've been grief-stricken and angry over Israel's policies, lies, duplicity, cruelty. However it's still important to hear what others have to say, especially since, as you, they speak honestly, and may, perhaps, shed some light on this bewildering subject.
Ahuramazda discredits only himself. I hope that the folks who oversee this site have a good look at the disgusting scribbles of Ahuramazda and others who joined him in his little hazing campaign, and ban him from this site. I certainly do not wish to have this site - or any other - soiled by the pathetic likes of him.
M E D U S A,
Your words ring true, up until that point of suppressing another's thinking, regardless of motives or language.
You state the obvious Karmic interchange, that "Ahuramazda discredits only himself," so why would we need to expunge his memory and thoughts?
Speaking as one who has been ba_nished, cen_sored, and erased -- it is not something a "nice" positively focused person would ever wish upon another, unless out of spite and that too springs forth its own Karmic balancing act.
Perhaps Ahuramazda has lost many family members and close friends, and is the equivalent of a survivor of "other" despicable atrocities as well ?
Where is your compassion that you so easily relish upon another fellow Jew ?
Are we not ALL of the same flesh and blood, only choosing different approaches to reach the sanity of peaceful existence ?
.
Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
DuraMater: "Not a completely apt metaphor. When the dice are loaded, and shown to be loaded, casinos do it willingly."
Are you claiming that the Palestinian leadership and Arab league didn't reject UN resolution 181 - willingly?
Are you saying that the Palestinian leadership and Arab league didn't chose to go to a war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine - willingly?
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DuraMater: "The Jewish community that lived in Hevron were dispersed in 1929. From what I can make out of Islamic law, that was completely unjustified - because they were living according to the general principles of the Medina al-Yathrib treaty, which grants non-Muslim communities full and equal rights in Muslim countries."
You have a lot to learn my friend.
Historicity there were two type of Non-Muslims under Islamic law.
1. People of the book - which means Jews and Christians - who, under Islamic law had permission to live and practice their religion as a second class citizens. (or dhimmi) Unlike your claim they didn't enjoy equal right as Muslims. And as the 1929 Hebron massacre example showed us - they occasionally suffered pogroms and massacres in the hand of Muslim mob.
2. The 2nd type of people are infidels. For them, on many cases, they were given the choice between conversion or death.
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The Israeli law of return:
- You avoided my question here it is again:
Do you agree that each country have the right to chose its own immigration law?
Now about the reasoning for Israeli law of return. It was designed to give shelter for Jews who are being persecuted.
Any person that under Hitler was "entitled" to be sent to the crematoriums, and as you may or may not know know, was prevented from entering in large number any other country - Now have a right to immigrate to Israel without any restriction.
If you have known a little Jewish history - You might have known that in the past 3000 years - Jews were expelled from their country of residence about 1000 times. That's, on average, one expulsion every 3 years. (In the last 100 years it happened mostly from Eastern Europe and from Muslim countries)
This is a humanitarian law, that if was implemented during the 1930's there may have been no holocaust. That law has nothing to do with the Palestinian suffering.
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DuraMater: "...demanding set of questions than were ever asked of the "Russian Jews" during the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union."
Israel opened its gate to soviet citizens immigration (Maybe 70% of them were Jews and 30% Christians) - Is that a bad thing?
medusa, "I strongly feel that Israel has been less than fair, forthright or honest, and is actually conducting a vicious and calculated campaign of genocide in, especially, Gaza"
If that was true, than how can you explain that the Gazan population is growing every year between 3.6 % and 4%?
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=gz&v=24
How can you explain that under the Israeli occupation - baby mortality rate had dropped from 30% to 2%?
Israel does cause economic hardship in Gaza (Not on humanitarian aid). But that's because the Gazan chose to fire thousands of missiles on their number one trade partner, and not because Israel want to commit Genocide.
Genocide you say?
I suggest you look up the dictionary.
L E T T O,
What an excellent example of how you treat your "friends",
__ can any of us help but wonder
__ how you treat your "chosen" enemies ?
And yes sir, we know of the genesis of GENOCIDE, created to describe a holocaust --
__ so appropriate,
__ don't you not think ?
Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
Letto - Yes, genocide, a word much bandied about these days. there are so many in force all over the world. Yes, just as Palestinians are not a "race", neither are Jews, yet no one objects to the term. What do you want to call it? Forced march into Jordan/Sinai/Syria? removal? ethnic cleansing? Clearing the land? Settling? Lots of polite terms for a vicious policy. This has been planned, has been the intention since 1895 or so, before the other genocide even reached the horizon.
Moreover, I refuse to reserve any part of language to a "special case scenario". Genocide is genocide, despite what mythological/ideological references you want to couch it in, and no matter the historical setting. The strategies may vary, but the goal is the same and as cruel.
Palestinian population increasing? That's a protection against ethnic annihilation. (do you like my explanation?) Maybe it's just sheer cussedness. A Palestinian majority is the big fear, isn't it? That might skew the vote, make Jews feel insecure - even more insecure, if that's possible. (anyway, that claim to feel insecure is a manipulative crock.) And there's so much damage done that needs to be healed. That this is not the way should be pretty obvious by now.
Economic hardship? How sweetly and delicately put! Economic hardship - that's having to choose between a trip to the zoo and a pair of shoes. What is being done is calculated, systematic, endemic deliberate, and mass-murderous. It violates every every code of law, decency and human dignity. What a waste of some good Nuremberg laws! If only everyone had learned from them! Was the Warsaw Ghetto economic hardship, too? Similarites abound...
And worst of all, it's self-defeating.
Are you turning your little gunboat on me now? Did I give you too much credit?
You're welcome. You're on your own now - I'm gone from here.
veracity, I don't really understand what you want.
The Palestinians in Gaza, by their action, are not friendly to Israel.
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medusa, You want to call the conflict in Gaza Genocide, where the amount of Palestinian causeless in the conflict is less that 0.05% of the population (the the last year), and while more than half the causeless are active militant who were busy firing rockets or mortar bombs at Israeli civilian targets from within the Palestinian population- then obviously you don't know what's the meaning of the word a genocide.
There is a good book that can help you medusa,. It is called: A DICTIONARY.
I don't want you to work to hard, so here is the dictionary definition of Genocide.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide
- The deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
- The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
I think the reason why you chose the word Genocide to describe the above conflict, is because it looks cool, or because of some other hidden agenda.
Raping the English language will not change the facts on the ground and will only hurt your credibility among non-believers (People who are not converted to the false fate that Israel is inherently Evil).
Why not take a step further, why don't I call your comment in CD a Genocide?
Opps, I broke my nail, what a Genocide.
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medusa: "Palestinian population increasing? That's a protection against ethnic annihilation. (do you like my explanation?) Maybe it's just sheer cussedness. A Palestinian majority is the big fear, isn't it? That might skew the vote, make Jews feel insecure - even more insecure, if that's possible."
You are seeing things that aren't there." Palestinian population increasing means" exactly that that their numbers is going up. Unlike you, I don't have a hidden hate agenda. My only intention was to prove that there is No genocide. Have you ever seen a Genocide taking place where the number of people against them a GENOCIDE is committed is actually increasing by 3.7 to 4% yearly?
I know you want to believe that all Zionists wants to see the number of Palestinian drops, and a genocide committed - sorry for not falling in line with your stereotype of Zionists, and I apologize for crashing your wet dreams.
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"This has been planned, has been the intention since 1895 or so, before the other genocide even reached the horizon."
Is that so?
I was under the impression that the Zionist movement wanted to establish a Jewish home in Palestine without displacing or kill anyone, and that the killings, the wars and the displacements only took place as a result of Arabs violence.
Here is an example:
The Weizmann - Faisal agreement from 1919.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement
The idea in the above agreement was that the Jews will be allowed to immigrate to Palestine (0.2% of the Middle East land mass) without restriction. No Arab will be displaced, and in return, the Jews will help in the development of the entire Middle East.
This may clue you in that maybe some Zionist didn't plan any war or any displacement.
By the way, it was Faisal who walked away from that agreement.
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"Economic hardship? How sweetly and delicately put! Economic hardship - that's having to choose between a trip to the zoo and a pair of shoes. What is being done is calculated, systematic, endemic deliberate, and mass-murderous."
Again you see things that aren't there.
Although the Hamas is committed for the destruction of Israel, and is involve in a terror campaign against Israeli civilians, Israel allow humanitarian aid into Gaza, and on many cases allow Palestinians to enter Israel for medical treatment.
I hope you have an open mind to do your own research. Don't rely on me for information, but on the other hand, don't believe anything you hear from people who are trying to daemonize Israel at all cost, even by raping the language and spreading half truth and even blunt lies just to make Israel look bad.
L E T T O
You ask what I want ?
It wears heavily on my heart that your apparent intransigence and denied pain, only are increasingly feedback to cause more of the same, most likely w/o your full understanding. Even so, your attitude projects little concern for what others might feel or think, and it is thereby likely an un-welcomed intrusion for me to take a personal approach.
All other paths appeared to be of limited possibility, and I've erased much more than what you see here now.
There is little doubt in me, that causing pain and suffering of another equally debases and injures both "perpetrator" and "victim", and that these roles actually meld together and reverse -- as this experience is exactly of your wanting it to be this way. At least until you change your mind and thinking.
It is up to you to recognize the viciousness of your self-inflicted and created prison, and that the perceptions & beliefs that you hold so closely are the source of your own pain ( or perhaps it is felt as emptiness or loss of vitality ).
Although you appear hopeful and express openness in your postings, I suspect that this is a front to cover what is really still struggling to be alive within you. And then again, I cannot quench the sense that this is but a job for you, and you hardly could care less what anyone thinks -- perhaps you do care, but the evidence of that is missing …
Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
veracity, What you say is not true. I do feel concern and sorrow for what others feel or think.I do recognized the Palestinian suffering. However, I try to see if the onces you call victims had anything to do with their own misfortune.
You think that the underdog's actions and aggression should be ignored or at least forgiven, while putting all the blame only on the winner. Unlike you, I think that same underdog should carry full responsibility for their own action.
To achieve any hope for peace in the middle east, radical Islam, and the Palestinian militants hatred agenda, must be stopped.
Here is a web site maintained by Walid Shoebat. He is a Palestinian who was a member of the PLO. He committed a few terrorist attacks in the past, until one day, after he confrontation with his wife, he decide to learn for himself if the "true fact" he knew about the Jews and the Israelis are actually true.
If you are open minded as you claim to be, and you wish to learn beyond your one sided view point, you are welcome to visit
http://www.shoebat.com/