Shakker:

"The rules have to be talked out before the heat of the moment and enforced. Perverts, torturers, war criminals (like Bu$h the inferior and Shotgun Dick) need to be jailed and shunned forever by the people."

Sounds like you have a little mini Hitler in you too. The Nazis also called numerous people "perverts" including homosexuals and men caught trying to solicit prostitutes. -- Just like in our own fascist country. Anyone who stepped outside the boundaries of traditional marriage vows" was deemed a criminal in Nazi Germany (but especially if they disagreed with or opposed the philosophy of the Third Reich.) "Pervert" is quite a potent term to use against anyone under any circumstances but when used by authorities to enforce fascist ideology it's quite effective. As Nietzsche, in his search for Superman, once said: "There are master-morality and slave-morality." and also "Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose."

Easy racehorse, the Bush crowd does not live in trailers, nor do the super rich or the corporate bigwigs, and they call all the shots. The rest of us whether in trailers, tents, or houses dance to their tune and we don't even know it.

The freedom we brag about is a lie for some, for others an illusion.

Americans are trailer park trash.

Can't believe everything you read and when it comes to these so called polls, sounds to me like something dubious is afoot. Who takes these polls and what affiliation are they? Sounds like the fundamentalists involved in politics are looking for a way out because of their connections to the Bush administration, And Bush is a liar, he does too believe in torture. What torture does is increase the amount of violence in the world..

"The world keeps getting dumber
Incensetivity is standard
And faith is being fancied over reason

The idiots are taking over."

NOFX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw49mm-CmNo

82.

To many who commented: The way the poll question was phrased is no excuse for the scale of support for torture as national policy under any conditions.

To Lizard who belittled the effect of corrupt corporate media on the psychologies of Americans:

I respond that the Nazis knew of the concept of the Big Lie; that if a political Party Line is repeated loud enough and often enough it will be believed by a growing number of people regardless of how nonsensical or immoral it is on its face. The Nazi Propaganda Minister, Joseph Goebbels, was a master at propaganda techniques built around the mass inculcation of the Big Lie, but even he could never have dreamed of the scale, degree of sophistication, demographic targeting and infinitely better research into psychological triggers built directly into America's corporate media ("news," ads and entertainment) that exists today. Virtually ALL of it is now propaganda of one sort or another, and refined creativity for its own sake, or to honestly reflect or try to appraise the contemporary world, is all but absent except for reruns of earlier, better crafted material and some public radio and TV documentaries and artistic performances.

I watched as Rush Limbaugh, for some 30 years now, gradually dominated the white male 18-to-40 demographic and the deleterious effects it has had on my country. That poison with identical themes has proliferated into the neo-con agit-prop nausea-sphere we now inhabit–where it's legions of dupes are so deluded that they actually believe that George W. Bush is a competent leader whose policies are broadly justified. That, my friends, is DEEP indoctrination. The educational system, which worsened considerably since I was a high-schooler in the 1970s, did not help. But there was virtually NO significant radio opposition to Limbaugh that reached his TARGET demographic for decades. Limbaugh's platform reached them at work, on the road, in their cars and offices. Many of them, in turn, brow-beat their wives and children into believing right-wing rant radio's parallel historical mythology. The dissolving Left offered no thematically organized countervailing narrative, and has barely (and tragically, inadequately) begun to do so.

The internal dialog of America is now cacophony in no small part due to this plutocratically and corporately induced schism between the right-wing mythology and the general history appreciated by those who paid attention to authentic history.

To Lizard who generally characterized the American people thusly:

"Is it possible that the people who in better years lynched, enslaved, and exterminated have come to this? Is this the same people who so kindly bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and all of North Vietnam?"

I reply that the Americans who practiced slavery and lynching or actively supported those activities were MUCH smaller in both number and percentage of the overall population than the 40% (120 MILLION) who now support torture under the conditions suggested in the WorldPublicOpinion.org poll. Lizard's over-generalization is made apparent by his unspecified accusation of "extermination." If he is referring to the wars against the tribes of the North American First Peoples, then, here again, we are talking about a much smaller number and a smaller minority of Americans than the centemillion-plus who now support torture.

With regard to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were tactical reasons why these bombings, taking place when they did given the political situation within imperial Japan, saved far many more lives than they lost. Based on the casualty figures from previous battles against the Japanese in the Pacific (especially the battles of Okinawa), realistic casualty figures for a land invasion of the main islands of Japan ran as high as 5,000,000. Compare that to the few hundred thousand who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the reason for the use of the bomb becomes clear. The nature of the weapon was still experimental and poorly understood regarding its long-term effects on human beings by many scientists as well as politicians of the era.

But zero use of nuclear weapons on enemy target populations followed from 1945 until the development of depleted uranium projectiles in the late 1980s, and now has completely unraveled under Team Bush, who have abrogated the ABM Treaty funded new classes of lower-yield nuclear weapons and pushed the Pentagon to draw up nuclear "first strike rules."

Lizard's generalization applied to the Vietnam period is most dubious, because there never was stronger resistance to U.S. foreign policy by Americans within America than during that time and may never be again. The country was truly divided over that war and many protesters evinced concern about the plight of the Vietnamese people (North and South) in ways utterly & disgustingly absent from American reactions to Bush's monstrosities in Iraq and elsewhere. Even many of the far-Left protesters I've marched with against the Bush-Cheney Junta for years now are more concerned with punishing Team Bush than showing any real concern for the Iraqis, Afghans, Somalians, Lebanese, etc.

There is no more popular concern for these peoples than there is awareness or concern for Bush's praising of the working-class troops coupled to his repeated efforts to slash their pay and benefits. For those of us who lived through Vietnam this is a bad repeat. Our chickens have barely come home to roost from Bush's wars in terms of homeless, unemployed, unemployable and mentally ill vets. In hurting others and passively allowing them to be hurt we have ultimately most hurt ourselves. Current estimates of the full cost of the Iraq War alone, including long-term care for the troops, are in the $3- to $5 TRILLION dollar range.

But history is not relative and there has been a decades-long moral, ethical, educational, broadcast media, economic and spiritual decline in America for anyone not working two or three sleep-deprived jobs and with enough brain cells to pay attention. Its orchestrators are obvious: They prance and pontificate, puff and bloviate on Big Media 24-7-365.

If anything, the broad accusation of contemporary Americans that rings most true is that, collectively as a people, they have now become too acquiescent; too accepting and too unquestioningly servile with regard to their ruling class and its media tentacles. Much of this, I suspect, comes from the fact that many are too ignorant and/or lazy to either know where to go to look for truthful news about their world or to put some work into looking for it. They certainly won't learn about it from their public school system and many private Christian fundamentalist schools and home schools as well.

Torture was always meant to get confessions, never the truth. That's what the Russians designed it for. It is part of government intent on destroying freedom and democracy, not saving it. Professional interrogators know that the opposite of torture is necessary to gain good, useful information. Now why doesn't such a large segment of our population understand this? After WW II the US worked hard to make the recognition of international human rights a reality. It was America who pressed hard for protections in the Geneva Conventions. It was America who led the way on the UN Declaration of Human Rights. I would posit that this is of a piece with our continued warmongering and the shameful level of abuses and murders across the land. Eisenhower's warning against the military-industrial complex compounded by old prejudices and hatreds feeds these evils. We need leadership that is taking the moral high road. From the growing evidence, we do not have it.

Who supports torture? Speaking from limited experience, I was at work and 2 people supported torture, both extreme Christians of different sects.

I, an atheist, opposed torture on the grounds that it was uncivilized, and they both shut up (but continued in their beliefs). One of them has 2 sons that participated in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

But, here's the weird thing. She is the most right wing, religious "Left Behind" reading person you've ever met.

But- she went to Peru to do missionary work, and when she came home she was quoted in her tiny hometown paper as saying "They need wealth distribution in Peru."

This cracked me up. I'm sure it's the only time that newspaper printed Marxist propaganda.

This shows me that regular Americans don't really have a coherent neocon philosophy. They repeat what they are told by the media, but when no media tells them what to think, they go for the just solution.

May I suggest, as long as torture, as a matter of course and policy, exists in the United States of America we all, to some extent, condone torture.

None of us are free or clear of this - we all have blood on our hands, hearts, and soul.

We all must take a collective responsiblity for it in order to eradicate it.

A sizeable minority in US condone torture and a sizeable Majority in the US Congress condone torture.

A sizable minority (majority?) think it is ok to take an oath not to shag with anyone but their spouse and shag around anyway.

Basing the right moral decisions on what is convenient for people to do or say at any given time in a poll or during the heat of a war or interrogation is sure to lead to lots of mini Hitlers running around with dipshits like law professor Yoo trying to justify it.

The rules have to be talked out before the heat of the moment and enforced. Perverts, torturers, war criminals (like Bu$h the inferior and Shotgun Dick) need to be jailed and shunned forever by the people.

Why all the whining? Isn't it obvious from the way that America treats it's own citizens that we are quite willing to torture people from other countries? In most of the US winter involves killing temperatures and yet these good Christians tolerate the policy of allowing homelessness while our junk is provided secure housing in storage units.

Anybody who thinks America has had any moral authority for the past thirty years is either ignorant or willfully evil.

A man knows when he's stealing from his neighbor's woodpile; Americans know that they are stealing, raping and torturing others to maintain their wealth.

This is not a matter that is resolved in a poll. Anyone who may personally be facing death might well be willing to torture the enemy in order to evade death. It's a basic survival instinct.

That is why we don't resolve this by a poll. We condemn torture because it is a barbaric, inhumane means of conducting behavior. It is uncivilized to torture or even to test the limits of what is and isn't torture. As we strive to be civilized, we condemn torture because we are civilized.

Taking this one step further, war is as uncivilized as torture. When one tries to develop rules about how to kill others, one is in an impossible divide between what is civilized and an activity (war) that defies civility and bravery. War is the ultimate act of cowardice, as most who are in it are either looking to personally gain or are simply responding to some mindless heard instinct. Therefore so called acts of bravery in war are really acts of cowardice.

This poll was surely designed like so many others to make human beings who actually respect LIFE, feel they are nearly overwhelmed by those who do not. Divide and conquor. It is simply a lie, and is one we should not buy into.

No doubt there are some who do not think critically and some so afraid (STILL) that they would tolerate this, but I believe most people on earth find torture dispicable and it is those who would utilize it that want to convince us that there are more of them than there actually are.

sl63 June 27th, 2008 6:43 pm
Those who think that only some Ausländer will ever be subject to third degree methods should watch this interview of Henri Alleg, citizen of another proud republic, France.

Very good video - the French journalist who was tortured, now in his eighties, gives a very compelling picture of waterboarding. He is a good speaker - very credible.

I wonder, had they posed the question, "Is it OK if we pick up your loved ones off the street, tell no-one we have arrested them, beat the crap out of them until they confess to something -- anything -- and then decide 6 years later that they probably had done nothing wrong but still would not release them for fear of looking like the fucknuckles we are?" whether they would have attained the same alleged support. Personally I doubt it.

The "ticking bomb" argument has been proved flawed (look it up on the www if you are interested), at least ethically; not that ethics has much to do with what goes on in DC.

lizard... right on... poor, poor America.

America has been the bully in the schoolyard, stealing all the weak kid's lunch money. But now all the other kids are growing up.

The other kids aren't bullies. They're just normal people. They don't want to beat America up. But they've spent their time learning how to get along in the world. Those kids have had to spend $7 a gallon for gas for years. But the bully has been living high on the hog... easy on $1 gas.

Poor poor America. Now squealing about $3.50 per gallon gas. Not just for their cars - everything depends on the price of energy. Everything.

The other kids have adjusted, but poor, poor America is finding it hard. Who wants to help out poor poor America? Anyone? 'Come on... let's go attack Iraq and steal their oil. Anyone?' Nope.

Loaded questions.

"Comrade, if by torturing these "terrorists" you can prevent 200,000 tons of bombs from dropping on your Villages which would kill men women and children and you can prevent the enemy from saturating your forests, rivers and streams with millions of tons of something they call agent orange, would you support their being tortured?"

How many of those 44 percent Americans would support torture when it Americans being tortured?

This is just Mark twains "The War Prayer" revisited all over again.

It merely shows how stupid an immoral people can be when they blind themselves with "patriotism".

Marx claimed religion the opiate of the masses. I can make the same observation about patriotism. While Marx premised the masses use religion to help forget the pain and suffering with the promise of a heaven and a better world after death, Patriotism allows the masses to visit pain and suffering on others and not be bothered by the twinges of conscience.

We had to choose ONE of either:

__ The Greediest Country,

OR

__ The Wealthiest Country,

As we couldn't be both.

lizard June 27th, 2008 6:33 pm:
"Poor, poor American people. They would be reasonable if it weren't for the fact that what they watch on television twists their mind."

Too true, lizard. But that's what is sad isn't it? If we were talking about an impoverished disease ridden wasteland, we could condescendingly cut America some slack, but we are not. They have so much going for them and they are throwing it all away.

As far as those that condone torture they are obviously the same ones that still support Bush and Cheney.

Before I RAMBLE ON, I need to state that I DO NOT condone torture. I do not condone war. I see war and torture for what they are and that their use will continue until we are able to understand what it means to be civilized.

As far as torture goes it is a very successful tool used by the military, militias, militants, mercenaries and any one else that needs to portray themselves as an ominous foe. Why do you think the civil battles between the Iraqi religious and tribal factions leave the tortured mutilated bodies of their victims in the streets and neighborhoods of those they are fighting with? Darfur and the use of the Janjuweed?

Let's say if every insurgent (I am also talking about the fictitious Al-Qaida) that was captured was treated humanely, provided American jurisprudence and any and all rights provided by international law and was released because of lack of a technicality or by whatever means international laws provide. They go back home to fight another day and tell other insurgents how well they were treated by their captors. Insurgents now know that they fight until the get surrounded, then they surrender and get a long vacation in an American detention center before being sent home during, or after, the 7 going on 30 year war possibly in better health then when they started. ???

"Rules of war are ridiculous attempts at bringing about some aspect of civility to an uncivilized practice." Yes you can quote me on that... We Americans don't TORTURE we just do a preemptive strike based on lies to begin a campaign that brings about the destruction of a country while killing 1 MILLION of its people (pause) Torture is unacceptable, my country doesn't torture...

So, the American military (as well as others) uses the idea, the concept, of torture as a psychological weapon against the enemy regardless of that enemy being in custody. If you get caught you may or may not get tortured, but you will not be comfortable. The ones in custody are probably the lucky ones. I bet our paid mercenaries, like Blackwater, probably give no quarter to those they encounter. Remember contractors are exempt from any laws.

We are truly living in denial if we think torture is the problem.

Those who think that only some Ausländer will ever be subject to third degree methods should watch this interview of Henri Alleg, citizen of another proud republic, France.

What has happened too the American people who now support torture. Can this be true? Is it possible that the people who in better years lynched, enslaved, and exterminated have come to this? Is this the same people who so kindly bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and all of North Vietnam? I refuse to believe it. Such a good people would never support torture. It must have been the pollsters question, there is no other explanation. Americans are good people I tell you. Look at the history, there has never been a kinder gentler nation. Yup, it's all lies I tell you. Nothing but lies to sully America.

"We have indeed become an evil nation, and will some day pay a heavy price for it."

You are so right. And we are paying for it right now. We are on our way out. There are days when, if you sit still long enough, you can actually feel it happening.

Poor, poor American people. They would be reasonable if it weren't for the fact that what they watch on television twists their mind. The horrible media and corporations have taken a basically pure and holy people and turned them into beasts. Poor, poor blameless American people and damn that 24 program that has polluted their minds. Such a good people destroyed by modern communication. Americans are innocent victims unable to think for themselves and thus perverted by the media. Shame on you media, soiling the holiness of the American people. God bless America but not the media and corporations, may they rot in hell with the rest of humanity and may they never be allowed in heaven where everyone is American.

MBFLA - you hit the nail on the head.

But Americans shouldn't be too worried about foreigners. You won't find too many people in the world that have a stomach to do those things. The worst that will happen will be some grief stricken individuals will do what was done to the Blackwater mercenaries in Falluja. Spur of the moment venting of rage.

Other than that, you'd have to go back to Nazi Germany to find the creative, institutionalized, sick methods of torture the US is now using.

Yes, I know that other governments use it - but they use it to keep order at home, not on foreigners. Those governments have no reason to use it against Americans. But, I predict it won't be long before the US starts using these methods on its own people. All the totallitarian infrastructure is in place. Total surveillance. Huge prisons and holding areas. Mercenary armies. It's all there.

There is only one conclusion that can be reached, and that is that the evil in this country is not just George Bush and Dick Cheney. We have indeed become an evil nation, and will some day pay a heavy price for it.

eddievalgould - Yours is an intelligent understanding, and I think that you value moral strength. Those are good quotes and aphorisms.

Personally, I think that killing and torture have the greatest negative effect on the torturer or murderer. The purity of action you speak of is a one way road. Once you enter, you can't come back out. So you have to be absolutely sure it is right before you go there.

I underestand you aren't really planning on taking those kinds of actions, but what if you were right on the verge of it? Would you do it? I don't think you would, because I recognize from your writing that you are searching for the truth. The actions you speak of slam doors shut forever. No truthseeker wants to do that.

To the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, whom we bomb and shoot with regularity, American troops are the terrorists. When our troops are tortured how thrilled are Americans going to be with that? When our troops are raped, waterboarded, sleep deprived, kept in extreme temperatures, sodomized, etc for days weeks and months while in captivity without access to attorneys are we going to look at those actions as comparable to fraternity
pranks ?

soma90405... excellent point.

Malfoyd-"I see your point, but here's the flaw: If you are concerned about karma, killing the guilty party does just as much damage to your karma as killing anyone else. Sorry - but people are all the same on that level. They are all on the same road… those people are just further behind, or twisted. Killing them will take you down to their level."

If one sees oneself as the whole, than it is merely self defense and also preservation of the species.
Karma is work, what one does.
King Yudehistra, the older brother of Arjuna, in the epic tale of the Mahabarahta after being engaged in an inevitable(pushed to the brink, no choice) war that killed everyone including his entire family was the only remaining survivor. The Heavens opened to him and he climbed the Great Stairs accompanied by his dog Dharma. The Gatekeeper awaited him, congratulated him on his great deeds and invited him into Heaven but under the condition that he leave Dharma his faithful dog behind. Yudehistra refused and turned to walk back into the hellish aftermath of the war with Dharma. At that point the Gatekeeper said he had passed the final test and was to enter Heaven and that Dharma the dog was to come too.
Yudehistra did his work and completed his Dharma. We too must be honest and willing to complete our Dharma which does overcome our karma. We do not start the fight, but when necessary we must finish it. To do otherwise is cowardly.
Better they(the pre-emptive murderers and torturers)should awaken and overcome their ignorance but we must not feign righteousness and neglect our duty, our Dharma and that is what truly holds the mind and heart beyond
pre-occupation. To deny ones Dharma is to leave earth a hellish, uncaring, unliveable place forever. New beginnings can be necessary. It has been said that ignorance is killed on the physical plane; from the Destruction rises a new Creation - Siva.
I certainly do not advocate killing, but when dumb nature holds rule, then we are called to act with great intelligence lest we be murderers ourselves from lack of
self-respect. Harm my family or my self, and I will act. So who isn't my family??
As hyped, "Do not kill", is a churchy control gimmick perpetuated by a greedy hypocritical hiearchy that slathers itself in luxory and slaughters hundreds even thousands daily.
To thine own Self Be True and you shall incur no sin. "Niether do I slay, or am I slain."
-Bhagavad Gita- I am not doing it, it is only the ego that thinks it so.
Thanks for the input.
PS.Doesn't our Constitution also rally us to act to preserve our Republic....by whatever means? But I am not calling for a revolution but only that you Resist Cloning and go as far as one needs to go to do that. That is only Self-Respect.

...Rage is bad enough. But capturing someone, putting them, completely powerless, in a cell, and then methodically torturing them shows a really psychopathic dedication to pain and suffering that is really abhorent.

This reminds me of a talk given by a Texas prison chaplain who had "ministered to 95 inmates executed by lethal injection". He had seen plenty of blood and gore during the Vietnam War, but he found out at his first clinical, pre-meditated execution that it was far worse than anything he'd seen at the battlefield.

Caleb Abell When those Blackwater mercenaries were tortured and killed in Fallujah, self-righteous America leveled the city. I guess it made them really mad that anyone would do what they routinely do.

'Oh, but that was worse,' I can hear the protests. How worse? To me, an outright expression of rage, such as happened when the Blackwater mercenaries were killed in Fallujah is marginally better than institutionalized torture. Rage is bad enough. But capturing someone, putting them, completely powerless, in a cell, and then methodically torturing them shows a really psycopathic dedication to pain and suffering that is really abhorent.

colleen: Given the long history of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic torture when any of these cults have sufficient temporal power, why be surprised that they aren't condemning it in significant numbers?

william street... Good question. My guess is that about 47% of Americans would agree... and sales of frankfurters would drop by 3%. (Some Americans have that much imagination).

When I saw the headline, I was going to suggest the following:

Couldn't they all gather on the Washington Mall with a referee? Cameras and journalists could cover the event.

When the referee blows on his whistle everybody can start torturing one another, and TV coverage will help the rest of us understand torture better.

The broken bodies as well as any intact tormentor can be placed in a rocket and shot toward the Andromeda Galaxy.

Now that I realize-- for the first time-- that the Washington Mall couldn't possibly contain the pro-torturers, there are so many of them, I don't know what to say.

I'm headed for a bar. I only plan to talk to every other person. So this is what life was like in ancient Rome. Why not use all coliseums and football stadiums in the off-season for the same purpose? It must be the spectacle that everyone wants, since there's no other possible reason for torture. So give the people what they want. But as I said, if you want to torture you must agree to be tortured, too.

Eventually, as Americans are captured and treated in kind, the average American will be outraged that the people we are victimizing would return the favor. That's the problem, Americans are so stupid that they don't realize they're going down a two Way Street.

As far as the reliability of information received from torture victims is concerned, I suppose that when the "hero" John McCain made statements about American war crimes when he was a prisoner, they must've been true because he wouldn't have just said anything so his captors would be nice to him. No, not straight talking John.

How about poll testing the question "Sexual deviants pose such an extreme threat that governments should now be allowed to engage in some degree of cannibalism if it may gain information that leads to a cure for cancer"?

Bill from Saginaw

After reading this troubling article, I tried to figure out why Americans answered the poll questions as they did. The wording of the questions, as others have pointed out here, is part of the problem, but I think there are two other factors.

First there's the statement that torture NEVER elicits truthful answers; that may be accurate in general, when dealing with terrorists, but how does anyone know for sure? It seems equivocal, and if thinking about it in the context of an upcoming attack, equivocation could lead people to respond to a poll question differently than they might otherwise.

A smaller point, but important, I think, is that sleep deprivation is lumped in with outrages such as waterboarding and stress positions. There probably isn't a former college student alive who didn't pull an all-nighter and knows the miseries of being sleep deprived, but I don't agree that it's torture per se -- unless it goes on for days on end.

In short, the poll answers appear to reflect the fact that definitions of "torture" --which to those who wish to ban are black-and-white, plain and simple-- may seem more complicated to others, including poll responders.

Rich M is right the wording of the question is a stacked deck, designed to produce the result it did. the poll is useless. no one should pay attention to it. stop wasting our time

With our history of getting the wrong person (i.e. Maher Arar) the US shouldn't be torturing anyone at all. We have yet to prosecute anyone for 9/11 for all the torture, extraordinary rendition, secret prisons, etc and it's going on 7 years already. How can anyone claim torture works, it obviously doesn't. To use the classic example of a bomb ticking somewhere, the bomb will have already detonated and we'd still be torturing the wrong person to find out the whereabouts of said bomb.

I think these poll results are the saddest, most tragic and depressing comment on contemporary "Amurka," as Bush calls it, that I've heard yet. The ideals of the founding fathers are now almost completely shunned or perverted in the land of their Constitutional inception. No one should imagine that as the nightmare of over-population vs. dwindling natural resources/habitats/species worsens, and people begin to fight more and more over oil, water, strategic minerals and arable land, that the global reliance upon torture and other cruel and coercive methods, technologies and policies can but rapidly worsen. But for the impetus of this spreading mercilessness and cruelty-as-policy to have come from the United States of America at the very outset of the 21st century, right out of the gate, is the most profoundly sad and damning realization of all.

What made America different and, formerly exceptional, was not wealthy Americans' lifestyles, but our core Constitutional ideals--elastic enough for freedoms to expand instead of contract--at least for well over 200 years. That Constitution-based America is clearly in its death throes. Fools will rejoice at this without any better alternative to offer. Perhaps, if humanity is very lucky, some future society will borrow from the best of earlier great civilizations (as the founding fathers borrowed from English Common Law and the Roman legal structures) and include some of the best and brightest ideas from our Constitution and Bill of Rights. That may be the best that can be hoped for now.

The fact is that the large Amurkan minority that condone torture and have never learned about the Nuremberg Tribunal and the foundation of war crimes laws--or despise them if they have--are the most politically active, well-funded and organized voters in Amurka. There is no organized center or Left and another 80 million eligible Amurkan voters are cattle who do not vote.

Woe unto us all--especially the now thoroughly perverted betrayers in the corporatist media whose broadcast licenses should all be jerked and their corporations forced into receivership--for letting things slide to this point. I mourn my Constitutionally dead America and have only fear, anger and loathing of what now awaits us.

Malfoyd -

Agreed: specified exceptions in statute would invite exploitation by attorneys. The statutory proscription must be absolute. In any event, a judge or jury would always have the option to impose no penalty or modest penalty in the averted 'ticking time bomb' scenario, given certain finding of facts.

overkill - the US guv is directly torturing at Gitmo and other holding sites. And I agree with you that by a slightly wider definition of the term, also torturing the people of Iraq and Afghanistan - and arguably much of rest of the world too.

Another poll which has detected the incredibly poor state of education in this country.

There are so many facts available about these types of interrogations that prove they have no value in achieving the stated objective -- to investigate a terrorist act or prevent one.

People under torture will say anything and what is said under extreme duress is useless.

This is so obvious as to reflect this poll back on the state of education and the resulting level of critical thinking of our citizens.

What it has detected is that -- again -- nearly 50% of the population is not capable of critical thinking on even the lowest level.

That 47% of Americans condone the use of torture as this article states--and only 53% are against torture--only reinforces in my mind that I am, as a liberal, a tiny majority soon to become a minority in the USA. When I read this article it immediately reminded me of the feeling that overcame me when Bush "won" the 2004 presidential election (nevermind Ohio was stolen by Blackwell, Diebold, Rove et al.). I was shocked and very saddened to see so many Americans actually VOTE Bush into a second term--in enough numbers to make stealing the election possible--regardless of what state they were from. After all, they all saw what happened during those first 4 disasterous years of Cheney/Bush...and they voted for more! "What a bunch of fucking idiots I have for fellow Americans" I thought to myself at that sad moment, roughly 4 years ago. They actually liked Bush, and voted for him again! And here we read these (presumably) same folks also avidly support torturing people for the so-called "war on terror". I know these poeple. You know these people. They are our friends, our relatives, and our neighbors. And sadly they are Stupid Fucking Americans. Played like a fiddle by FOX news, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, et al. Dark days indeed...with no sign of the darkenss ending any time soon. Think for yourself...don't be a dumbshit and try to 'save America'...I hate to say it but don't hold your breath or have too high of hopes for a 'happy ending' to the American dream of peace, justice, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.....there are many other great countries in the world to live in besides this self-absorbed corporate shithole. I highly recommend living abroad...how refreshing...:)

If torture takes you to the truth, then let's use it in the "No Child Left Behind" program to help failing students get the right answers on tests.

In courts of law, instead of putting your hand on a bible, you could just put it in a vise.

The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth: Torture is wrong. Even if it ever resulted in "right" answers, it would still be wrong.

"Terrorists pose such an extreme threat that governments should now be allowed to use some degree of torture if it may gain information that saves innocent lives?"

Frank1569,

Actually, this is a good wording for the question.

It is not stating: "Whereas terrorists pose such an extreme threeat, do you believe..." Instad I read it to two conjoined questions: "do you believe that terrorists pose an extreme threat" AND "do you believe that governments should be allowed to torture - yes ir no". Only a belief in both these things would result in an affirmative answer from the person being polled.

Like I wrote earlier, approval of torture is just one layer of the mythology - the one that makes it all possible is the belief that there are actually these terrorists lurking about who want to, and more preposterously, have the means to kill us all. The question is cleverly worded to addresses that too.

Has anyone seen the protests against torture that should be occuring in the churches and synagogues, mosques..etc places of worship?

There should be a sign outside the building during the month of June that reads:

"Torture is Wrong" and "Torture is a Moral Issue,"

The base of the problem is not the Bush administration. The problem is within the American people and their values.

Religious leaders (some of them) have said torture is an intrinsic evil.

http://sg.christianpost.com/dbase/americas/108//1.htm
Churches in All 50 States Protest U.S. Torture

Tuesday, Jun. 10, 2008 Posted: 6:29:22AM HKT

WASHINGTON - Hundreds of churches located in all 50 states and the District of Columbia will display an anti-torture banner during the month of June to voice their opposition to U.S.-sponsored torture, announced a religious group on Thursday.

The "Banners Across America" initiative, organized by the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, is taking place in conjunction with other interfaith public witnessing during Torture Awareness Month in June.

According to organizers, 298 congregations – including Jewish congregations, Buddhist temples, and Muslim mosques – have committed to displaying the large, black-and-white vinyl banners with the anti-torture messages: "Torture is Wrong" and "Torture is a Moral Issue," as of Thursday afternoon.

"We are thrilled that almost 300 congregations have made a significant and courageous witness in their community by displaying an anti-torture banner on the exterior of their building," said NRCAT executive director the Rev. Richard Killmer during a teleconference Thursday.

"In a public way these congregations are stating clearly that torture is always wrong – without any exceptions," he commented. "These powerful witnesses may hasten the day when we see the end of U.S.-sponsored torture."

more at the link

Torture to save innocent lives?
The Iraqis and Afghans are the innocents who
are being tortured by the guilty Americans.
This is sadistic cruelty for oily avrice.

Zounds, you are almost right... but why leave any loophole. You must know that the American justice system loves loopholes. As soon as the lawyers find one, they win a case on it, then it becomes a precedent, then the precedent becomes more general, and soon everyone has the freedom to torture.

No, if someone wants to save a million people by torturing because they think it's right to do so, they should be punished, period. The law is the law. If it is a good law, it has no exceptiions.

If America ever could understand that, they would start to be a moral society. A moral society would not use 25% of the world's resources to feed the selfish fantasies of 5% of the world's population, keeping much of the rest of the world starving and angry. A moral society wouldn't be off invading other countries to steal their oil. It wouldn't be supporting dictators around the world to steal for them. And without these actions, it wouldn't have legions of people around the world hating it. There would be far fewer 'terrorists' trying to do bad things to it.

America deserves the hate of the world. It needs to change its actions, rather than hating back. It needs to make some fundamentally right decisions.

Yes, there can always be some really bad person who would want to do harm to a people of good character. But those bad people would not get any help. There would not be any strong organization of such bad people. And to whatever strength such people could gain, there would be many more defenders of the good society they were trying to attack.

First of all, this "poll" contained only 2 questions, both skewed. Here's the first:

"Terrorists pose such an extreme threat that governments should now be allowed to use some degree of torture if it may gain information that saves innocent lives?"

A - there's no proof that "terrorists pose such an extreme threat." Are there terrorist? Yes. Will there always be? Probably. Are they an "extreme threat?" Compared to, say, the USA's killing and maiming of millions in Iraq and Afghanistan? Hardly.

B - The question should be: should governments be "allowed" to use some degree of torture on ALLEGED suspects if it may gain information that saves innocent lives? Because we're not talking about torturing convicted criminals, we're talking about torturing a human being who may be a "terrorist," or who may be a cab driver in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Another inane poll of no consequence. Wonder how many of those who support torturing innocent-until-proven-guilty humans are fans of the "Saw" torture-porn flicks...

First of all, this "poll" contained only 2 questions, both skewed. Here's the first:

"Terrorists pose such an extreme threat that governments should now be allowed to use some degree of torture if it may gain information that saves innocent lives?"

A - there's no proof that "terrorists pose such an extreme threat." Are there terrorist? Yes. Will there always be? Probably. Are they an "extreme threat?" Compared to, say, the USA's killing and maiming of millions in Iraq and Afghanistan? Hardly.

B - The question should be: should governments be "allowed" to use some degree of torture on ALLEGED suspects if it may gain information that saves innocent lives? Because we're not talking about torturing convicted criminals, we're talking about torturing a human being who may be a "terrorist," or who may be a cab driver in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Another inane poll of no consequence. Wonder how many of those who support torturing innocent-until-proven-guilty humans are fans of the "Saw" torture-porn flicks...

First of all, this "poll" contained only 2 questions, both skewed. Here's the first:

"Terrorists pose such an extreme threat that governments should now be allowed to use some degree of torture if it may gain information that saves innocent lives?"

A - there's no proof that "terrorists pose such an extreme threat." Are there terrorist? Yes. Will there always be? Probably. Are they an "extreme threat?" Compared to, say, the USA's killing and maiming of millions in Iraq and Afghanistan? Hardly.

B - The question should be: should governments be "allowed" to use some degree of torture on ALLEGED suspects if it may gain information that saves innocent lives? Because we're not talking about torturing convicted criminals, we're talking about torturing a human being who may be a "terrorist," or who may be a cab driver in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Another inane poll of no consequence. Wonder how many of those who support torturing innocent-until-proven-guilty humans are fans of the "Saw" torture-porn flicks...

eddievalgould, I see your point, but here's the flaw: If you are concerned about karma, killing the guilty party does just as much damage to your karma as killing anyone else. Sorry - but people are all the same on that level. They are all on the same road... those people are just further behind, or twisted. Killing them will take you down to their level.

~ CANUCKCHUCK ~

___ L O L ___ too much

… I feel that I should be crying instead …

Namaste

P.S. Perhaps you can find a qualified job
with the official survey writers of America ?

The real percentage of American torture jocksniffers is, I'm sure, much higher than the poll reports. Lots of Americans feel enough shame about such matters as their own bigotries and hatreds that they lie to pollsters. Put 'em in a voting booth, however, and they quickly revert to Neanderthals.

Condoning torture against others is exactly the same as condoning torture against your loved ones.

Yvonne Terlingen, U.N. representative of rights group Amnesty International, told the news conference, "The role played by the United States in undermining the universal prohibition on torture cannot be underestimated."

I know what he meant... but it should be 'overestimated'.

Here is my solution for ending war and torture: If someone should ask you to or put you in a position to kill or maim then you should kill that person. If by chance they should kill you first then at least you'll be dead and not be put in the position of incurring that kind of damage to your soul. In summary, as long as you are likeley to kill or maim by suggestion or order anyway, then by killing the perpetrator you will at least help the world by getting rid of that kind of bastard and therefore balancing your Karma and soon those types will all be gone.....Thank Heavens.
I cannot see any flaws in creating this kind of movement, but if there are I would appreciate hearing of them so that I may not carry the idea around without purpose.
By the way "Big Brother", if you are watching, please know that I am 108 per cent passive and non-aggessive, but know this, that if you continue to fuck with us know that the repercussions you are creating are about ready to scorch you like a maggot on a hot sidewalk. Don't you know that, you 40 per centers, don't you know that your oppression cannot go on forever?
Call it a day, resist your cloner's, you are not a robot, ignorance is near its end. Surrender, you will be glad, we will embrace you. Look your boss in the eye and say NO, if he persists, warn him, If he persists still,.....well, you know what to do.

"Terrorists pose such an extreme threat that governments should now be allowed to use some degree of torture if it may gain information that would save innocent lives."

What a loaded question...here is another one.

"If your children were going do die a horrible death unless you stepped on the neck of this cute puppy, would you do it?"

~ USAn~

Perhaps the background in philosophy ( Prisoner Paradox ) mathematical game theory and/or education beyond HS, would likely disqualify either of us to actually properly word the question in a totally unbiased manner ?

As to how my phrasing condones torture, I would appreciate more of your insight, as I cannot see it.

Namaste

daveg, I think you have put your finger on what pushed up the poll numbers in favor of torture, - that "24 " series on TV most likely has more to do with it than any of the other theories in the article, and the time frames just about match.

I've misplaced an article in The New Yorker where as I recall, alas vaguely, some members of the military had thanked the actor aand the producers and were suggesting the TV serie should be or was being used in certain military training (or would that be indoctrination?) programs.

A mega blockbuster on human rights might have a chance to swing the polls back the other way since apparently much of the American public gets its news and views from so-called entertainment.

DYDYMUS has the right take on this. There should never be a US policy that allows torture or anything resembling it.

Of course, the police mentalities always like to pose the hypothetical: what if somebody's apprehended who we know has planted a ticking bomb or buried a kidnapp victim alive for ramssom, but we don't know exactly where, etc.? Isn't torture justified then?

The answer to this is: you don't make rules based on exceptions. The civilized rule has to be No Torture. Period.

If a truly horrific and exceptional situation can be courtroom- proved later, where, let's say a terrorist/kidnapper/whatever was abused by authorities in order to gain info that provaby saved immediately threatened innocent lives -- then a reasonable legal oversight process will find the abusers technically guilty of abuse/torture -- but have the option to impose no penalty on them, if the demonstrated fact warrant it.

Any legal approach that guts the No Torture Rule with enumerated 'allowable exceptions' is simply a way of making torture legal, and must be seen for what it is. Again: The rules must say that there are no exceptions, and they must be enforced. And only upon judicial review can penalties for dire case exceptions then be entertained and argued according to fact and common sense.

"USAn June 27th, 2008 1:05 pm

Namaste or ...

Such wishy-washy qualified wording ....

The questions should simply be. "Do you believe the United States is ever morally justified in using torture.""

Excellent. I much prefer that wording or phrasing, only I'd end it with a '?' instead of a period. :)

Namaste or whatever you call yourself,

Such wishy-washy qualified wording of the question (so typical of "liberals") is exactly how you DONT ask the question - It is effectively acknowleging the validity of the argument FOR torture!

The questions should simply be. "Do you believe the United States is ever morally justified in using torture."

sl63 ,

I think people like you exaggerate the influence of the Israeli lobby and Zionists in the U.S. While they are of influence there, Americans have themselves to blame most of all.

After all, U.S. history, the whole length of it, is full of examples of major torture; just that it usually wasn't called that. It doesn't matter what you want to call it; it [was] a history, from the start to today, that consisted of major torture. The brutal enslavement of people was torture. The major genocide of the indigenous Americans and killing most by spreading European diseases among the indigenous, this was torture, and murder. The war on the Philippines in the last decade of the 19th century and into the first of the 20th centure, the war on Viet Nam, and many other examples, consisted of MUCH torture and murder.

Americans don't need the Israeli influence to be EVIL.

Call the different instances of these evils how ever you wish, they are torture and murder, and damn, hellishly psychopathic, selfish, ..., voire, satanically MALicious, malevolent, ....

Instead of the Americans supporting torture doing this because of the Israeli (not true Jew, but other Israeli) and Zionist influence, it's because these Americans lust for committing evil and are too damn insane to be able to [think] to any noteworthy degree.

Our country has always done things that we would not be proud of doing, but most people were unaware of those actions until GWB decided with the help of his cronies it was necessary, and he had a right to do it, (to protect us).

Unfortunately, many fundamentalists evidently believe a born again Christian, which Bush claimed to be, should not be questioned as he was directed by God.

Then we have the Nationalists, (not Patriots), who believe our country is the only one that matters in this world, and whatever action our great leaders take is undoubtedly for the good of all of us.

Jesus would have about as much luck preaching peaceful actions to this country as he did with the Pharisees and Romans in his time.

~ QUESTION WORDING ~

As several others' have already mentioned, the question IS prejudicial.

A more balanced question supplies relevant information, like:

__ ¿ If you knew that the USA's condoning of torture
__ would likely cause the torture of American troops
__ ( by morally lowering that bar for all of humankind ),

__ … would you support it ?

OR

__ ¿ If you knew that the USA's use of torture would
__ likely provide no solution to a 'ticking time bomb'
__ ( because all torture is useless for information gathering

and
__ it is only practical as a means to create TERROR in
__ all of the people of Earth of being tortured themselves ),

__ … would you support it ?

Namaste

Judah wrote,

"I don't support torture, and I don't know anyone who does, either in my family or circle of friends. I'm a middle class American, and this makes me wonder..."

Where do you live? In the left-leaning urban enclave I used to live in, most didn't agree with torture. But here in suburbia just 7 miles from where I used to live, support of torture - all part of the mythology of the so-called "war on terror" is quite sizable - and it gets more sizable the further you go out. And this TV inspired belief in turture is just the beginning. One can't even begin to plumb the layers of utter nonsensical mythology, and disconnection from reality, that passes for "political opinion" amongst my neighbors.

And I'm seeing too much generalization here, this survey doesn't indicate a sizable minority of humans condone torture, only a sizable manority of USAns.

The whole thing physically sickens me. IBS, stomach disorders, depression. I increasingly choose to stay home and live like a hermit than interact with the vile scum who call themselves "Americans". I did not ask to be born here.

One other thing to consider is the gradual conditioning of the American public by "supporters of Israel" on this matter. Because, contrary to popular opinion torture didn't become an acceptable topic for discussion in polite company during the last few years only. In The Fateful Triangle, Noam Chomsky wrote of the first apologia for torture to appear in a mainstream US magazine more than thirty years ago. The New Republic issue of July 23, 1977 carried an article by Seth Kaplan in which he argued against "outright condemnation of torture" when it came to Israel's dealings with Palestinians. Chomsky's reaction was:

To my knowledge, this is the first explicit defense of torture to have appeared in the West apart from the ravings of the ultra-right in France during the Algerian War.

Newsweek also published an essay entitled 'The Case for Torture' on June 7, 1982 by Michael Levin, a professor of philosophy at City College of New York just as another Israeli invasion of Lebanon was getting underway, this one leading to approximately 20,000 deaths, including the massacres carried out over several days at the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila.

Well, yes there is a very nasty minority in this country that thinks this way. These are the same people who talk about bombing countries back to the stone age, or the congresscritters that talk about nuking countries.

And, there's been a concerted media propaganda campaign that has been blasting the message at Americans non-stop that we must be torturing the 'others' or else we all die immediately from a terror attack.

Given that, its rather nice to know that this hasn't been effective in making Americans all think this.

willybilly,

Over 40% is MUCH, and 53% is not a large majority; sorry to differ with you! Over 40% is awfully many given the size of the population in the U.S., and 53% is too little. This leaves an image of a country that's nearly half INSANE, and damn 'DUMB ANIMAL'.

===================================

" timebiter June 27th, 2008 11:21 am

Generally this is a report that shows how woefully ignorant Americans are. ..."

Woefully? Want to see how woefully it really is? Then see the resources referred to in the following post of mine, and what they are both essentially about, while one specifically is, is 'SALVADOR OPTION (IN IRAQ) EXPOSED'; US and UK covert ops of extremely dark, hellish, satanically psychopathic kind, committing the many so-called suicide car bombings (often or usually not occupied by people and therefore not suicidal, but very deadly nonetheless, we know), so-called sectarian warfare, so-called Muslims blowing up Muslim religious sites, and so on. It includes targeting many innocent Iraqis, as well as many enough U.S. troops; perhaps also UK troops.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/25/9869/#comment-309275

For people not wishing to read the whole post, and it's really unnecessary to do so, just scroll down to the link for the GR article, and then down to where I refer to the resource index at the Brussels Tribunal website.

I suggest reading in those in the order they're referred to in that post. The article at GR is very important and provides also important background history, but is much shorter than the BT index page, which provides many links, as well as a compilation of copies of many enough articles (links also provided) and all within the same index page.

Also to learn enough about is 'OPERATION GLADIO', for which it's easy to find plenty of links to online resources with a very simple search; simply using 'operation gladio'.

Read these resources and history, and if Americans still can't figure out who the [real] terrorists are, then they deserve to be considered the way Henry Kissinger was purportedly quoted about his view on soldiers; 'DUMB ANIMALS'!

As someone has already noted, the question seems bogus. If the responders believe through misinformation or a misleading question that lives could "reasonably" be saved then what the results say is not that many people accept torture but rather that many people with no direct experience or knowledge of torture can be made to give erroneous opinions.

Consider the spike in Americans who, out of nowhere, professed a belief that Iraq was an imminent threat to America as soon as Condoleeza and Cheney began making the tour of Russert's "meet the press" show, speaking of "mushroom clouds".

Why not ask "Are you in favour of armed robbery, if it will save lives"

or

"Are you in favour of racketeering, if it will save lives"

or

"Are you in favour of first degree murder, if it will save lives"

What evidence is there that torture "saves lives"? None. Perhaps that's why we call torture a "crime". What does one do with someone who has committed a crime? That is the question I am waiting to see answered.

Please remember that many 'terrorists' work for the US government, courtesy of the CIA...

Funny. Back in the '80s we used to lionize dissidents who suffered from Soviet torture in the Gulags. Now we torture "terrorists." Just goes to show that people will always put their delusional self-interest ahead of any "universal" morality. Silly humans.

Look at how the poll question was worded:

"Terrorists pose such an extreme threat that governments should now be allowed to use some degree of torture if it may gain information that would save innocent lives."

This is highly-charged wording. It practically forces respondents to give an affirmative answer. It's not the same as asking "Do you believe torture is justified under any circumstances?"

Mordechai - you are right, but this IS a fascist nation.

Yesterday came the SCOTUS decision on guns; now there's this poll. Since World War II, when America emerged as the world's most powerful nation (and the only one with lots of money in its pockets) we have gradually gone from a nation to a Celebration of Death. Death is very, very big in the United States. It's almost a religion. No, it IS a religion, with George Wanker Bush as its latest High Priest, The Archbishop of the Shallow Grave. If America is to become a fascist nation not unlike The Third Reich, this fascination and worship of Death is going to be the thing that will make it happen.

We have the '24' mentallity, the CIA has the guy with the info on the ticking time bomb-torture works on TV.

It doesn't the strong will resist and the weak will tell whatever they think the torturer wants to hear.

"For many persons have such strength of body and soul that they heed pain very little, so that there is no means of obtaining the truth from them, while others are so susceptible to pain that they will tell any lie rather than suffer it."
-Domitus Ulpianus (3rd Cent AD)

"We should not torture or treat inhumanely terrorists we have captured. ... In my experience, abuse of prisoners often produces bad intelligence because under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear -- whether it is true or false -- if he believes it will relieve his suffering. I was once physically coerced to provide my enemies with the names of the members of my flight squadron, information that had little if any value to my enemies as actionable intelligence. ... I gave them the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line."
- John McCain

I don't support torture, and I don't know anyone who does, either in my family or circle of friends. I'm a middle class American, and this makes me wonder.

According to the poll's footnotes (specifically #11 about the USA), respondents were drawn from a 'nationally representative sample of the Knowledge Works Online Panel.' Panel was selected 'probabilistically' from US households with telephones. Polling was conducted via internet connection, which was in some cases, provided.

According the actual poll, available on a PDF file at WorldPublicOpinion.org's website, 44% of US citizens answered "Terrorists possess such an extreme threat that governments should now be allowed to use some degree of torture if innocent lives may be saved." This 44% is broken into two distinct categories: 31/44% clarify that statement with "Should be rules prohibiting torture in all other cases." The remaining 13/44% say "Governments should be allowed to use torture." I still find that scary personally, even at 13%.

Quotes above taken directly from the study itself, not paraphrased as in the article.

Vivisectionists have been using torture claiming they gain information from it since the the mid 1800s(thanks largely to Darwin's influence)--its because we condone torture for medicine that it creeps into other areas.

Obviously those with a greater tendency to support Mr. Bush would be the ones to also support torture. It would be interesting to know how many of those torture supporters are also fundamentalist Christians.

Be you an American patriot or a Christian you are suppose to know that, "How we live is more important than if we live!!" I can see some patriots not understanding this, but Christians who have forgotten this are practicing a religion that would not make Jesus proud!

Somewhere humanity did evolve much beyond beastial behavior. The sad part is we are so much more competent how we can be cruel to our species and others

So its OK then to torture the torturers? Might save lots of lives. Sounds valid to me.

Generally this is a report that shows how woefully ignorant Americans are. Using torture to gain information does not work. If you torture someone it is for that pupose, to make them suffer and decend into the same level of barbarity that we supposedly abhore.Then again we live in a culture steeped in the biblical eye for an eye doctrine. I would be willing to bet that the majority of Americans that support torture consider themselves "good" christians. If a terrorist has planted a WMD in a major US city don't you think they will have trained to come up with a number of fictional stories to tell the authorities while the clock ticks.

Since the use of torture does not elicit reliable information, it cannot save lives. Since it cannot save lives, the question is bogus, moot, and stupid.

Bullshit!..They call 53% a "narrow" margin who think torture should be banned. When the shrub was elected, he called the 52% that voted for him a mandate! More spin from a poll likely controlled by TPTB.