Expect more of the same. (Is anyone really surprised?)

A vote for Obama is a vote for republican policies.

It's now stunningly and sadly clear that there is no difference in the two parties.

Vote for Nader. He's our only real hope.

Let's ask Obama if he has read the bill.

Everybody
Everywhere
Via every medium...

"Senator Obama, have you read the FISA bill currently before the Senate?"

He should be forced to answer whether or not he has read this particular bill.

He doesn't read! He asks his advisors whether it will help him with the all-important swing voters and does what he is told by his corporate masters. There is no valid reason to vote for Obama - not even fear of McCain (there is no valid reason to vote for McCain, either).

NADER...NADER...NADER....NADER.....NADER.....NADER....NADER.....NADER....NADER.....NADER....NADER....NADER.....NADER....NADER....NADER...

Put the entire CONgress together and list what they have done for the average American citizen then compare it to what Nader has done for us through the years...NO COMPARISON...Nader has fought for YOU for decades. The Dems have SOLD you out. When you go to vote for Obama, count the times he has had anything to say against the treacherous Pelosi and Reid. AND remember Obama's words to AIPAC.

His campaign at 866-675-2008 has seemed put its phones on 'no answer' and his website - 'Mailboxes are full'

Fascist paymasters rule.

VOTE FOR NADER!

Obama offers a false promise of change. There is no point in having a democractic party which is just another shade of the Republican party.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/24/feingold

If Barack, the chosen, wants to prove himself to his core constituents in the banana republic, he'd better goose step towards the police state.

Here is an EXCELLENT site which cites 10 arguments for TeleCom Immunity, and then refutes them with solid counterarguments:

http://fisa.wikispot.org/Telecom_Immunity_Arguments

Can you hear the chains?

Who you gonna run too?

Voting for Nader is just throwing your vote away. How many Red State Conservatives are going to vote for Nader? None! Obama is our best hope, even though he is tacking to the "center", which he has to do to get elected. No matter how you look at it, voting Democratic (republican-lite) is the only way to get us out of this mess.

One other thing. No, Telecomms don't deserve immunity for this reason only. On 11 January 08 it was reported that these same companies "suspended" the services they were providing the FBI because of an unpaid $66,000 telephone bill, while at the same time reporting "quarterly" profits in excess of $3 billion dollars. Were they just doing their patriotic duty?, and Was our country being "protected" during this lapse in information sharing? Answer those!

Matt,
You seem surprised.

Haven't you been listening to Obama all these years: he's deeply conservative.
How do you think he got corporate American to bankroll his campaign?

Obama=McSame on everything that matters.

If I were a betting man, my money is on Obama winning in a landslide. I would also bet what little I have, that progressive environmental policies are dead on arrival and giving way to incremental reform environmentialism predicated on Bio Fuel and Nuclear energy sources; I would bet that U.S troops will be in Iraq long past the 16 month deadline Obama promises; I would bet that the U.S will be embroiled in Iran in an ever widening war in the Middle East; I would bet that corporations have more influence at Obama's inclusive "table" then he says so publically; I would bet that the minumum wage will remain so; I would bet that FISA and other snooping Bills will continue to destroy personal rights and freedoms under an Obama Administration; I would bet that the Earth has about 5 years before we reach the tipping point.

JP Breeze, you're stupid. Attitudes such as yours are what enable Obama and the rest to take advantage of us.

doughyden
"your stupid. Attitudes such as yours are what enable Obama and the rest to take advantage of us"

Oh, that really hurt? Boo Hoo! What "attitudes" are you referring to?, and try speaking for yourself douch-bag, who are the "us" your ranting about. You may have been taken advantage of, which is probably why your bitter. I see you posted nothing worth reading, I guess your just here to call people "stupid" without explaining why.

So, what you folks are suggesting is that Obama stand up all by his lonesome, with Steny and Pelosi cowering in the corner, and take a strong stand on the FISA Bill? Essentially say that "most of my colleagues are hacks"? Get a grip on reality, people. Listen in your head to the narrative on Fox and CNN is he were do to that. The first job is to get the man elected. Did someone say Nader? Yeah, right...........

Chris Dodd got up and made an impressive speech against the bill. Let Obama's colleagues lead the way on this, and in doing so, give BO some covering fire. Enough pearl-clutching. This is politics. This is how it's done.

More Democrats will vote for McCain than will vote for Nader. Very little will be said of them though. I guess voting for the other major party isn't as bad. Many on the right will also vote for Barr this election.

The only thing that I feel uncomfortable with is the right wingers who come here and pretend like they're left of center and use that to criticize Obama. Make no mistake, McCain is worse, and the right wingers doing this should spend more time trying to woo Barr supporters, but as a left winger I'm beyond disappointed, given the stances people are now taking on issues according to polls, we have no options for a REAL alternative in the major parties. I'm not surprised at all, just disappointed.

Let's face it, Obama is a hack from the Chicago political machine. I called his office to ask that he not capitulate on the FISA bill.

Last year, Obama promised to filibuster any attempts to insert retroactive immunity. Now, his staff reads off talking points about why the FISA "compromise" is a good idea.
Amazing how so many people wanted to hold Hillary Clinton's feet to the fire, but want to exempt Obama from the same degree of scrutiny.

I, for one, cannot support either of these corporate hacks - Obama or McCain.

sipsey June 25th, 2008 2:24 pm :

"Listen in your head to the narrative on Fox and CNN is he were do to that."

Sipsey, if you are waiting for Fox and CNN to bless candidates that will take the side of the people against the owners of Fox and CNN, I'm sure you will be disappointed.

When I argued one year ago that Obama is a dangerous politician I was showered with filthy invectives by the Obamazis. It feels much better to discover that I am no longer alone.

jpbreeze said: "Obama is our best hope"

If Obama is your best hope, then I would say that you're hopeless as everything he stands for, everything he'll do as president, is on behalf of the corporations and Israel. You, the common person are out of luck and the slide towards fascism will continue unhindered. Is that your hope?

Sipsey said: "The first job is to get the man elected"

So, is it ok to sell out your principals to get the man elected? It's it ok to vote for a wrong piece of legislation to get the man elected? Is it ok to go against everything his supporters believe in to get the man elected? Is it ok to kiss the ass of AIPAC and make irrational statements regarding Israel and the Palestinians, to get the man elected?

If Obama had taken a principled stand against the new FISA bill, sure, Fox 'news' and the other media hacks would have taken swipes at him, but what does that matter? Those that believe the crap on Fox news aren't going to vote Obama anyways. If he had taken a stand, then we would have seen a man with the integrity to stand up for justice and what's right, even at the expense of his campaign. Instead, all we see is another bloody sell-out politician with no spine. Shame shame shame.

Vote Nader. Dems and Repugs = no difference. Same old same old stuff as usual. I predict Obama will become president but will be just a mediocre president making no REAL changes that effect our continuing disastrous foreign policies and domestic policies that do not lift up our nation's people. (single-payer healthcare, K-college education for all, downside the Cold-War military and decrease the size of the military budget -- which stands now at 50 cents on every American tax dollar and rising --, stop proliferation of WMD's around the world, repeal the repeal of Glass-Steagall Act, reverse Military Commissions Act, invest heavily national infrastructure, institute carbon tax and discourage further oil development along our shores and Alaska while instituting a Manhattan-like project towards clean energy that would create literally hundreds of thousands of jobs, etc., etc. Then there's his vague statements regarding bringing the troops home from Iraq (and Affhanistan) -- very vague timelinewise and numbers. Personally, the more I learn of O'bama's voting record, the more I hear him speak (as he did at AIPAC gathering), the more I see of the large corporations supporting him, the more I learn of who his advisers are now and who he is considering in his cabinet as President (same people as the last 12 years, including military generals --the more I don't see faces that represent change coming), and the more I have grave doubts about just what kind of "change" he is talking about. I'm not buying it anymore. Vote Nader.

This is a betrayal, and Obama is a hack. But I do not want the blood of one million plus dead Iranians on my hands for the sake of a protest vote that will mean absolutely nothing! A lot of people here have it so backwards. Until you can DEFEAT the Democrats (and not by electing Republicans) they will remain part of the problem. You have to field candidates locally, then groom them to run state wide and eventually for national office. How else do you people think this is going to work? A few percent at the margins vote for McKinney or Nader, a few percent vote for Barr and what do yo get? Business as usual, that's what. I will keep repeating it.... Trickle down politics works as well as trickle down economics. They (the corporate parties) will only take notice once you threaten their power. Voting for Nader or any other 3rd party candidate for the highest office in the land is laughable to these people, if it shows up on their radars at all. Only a movement of people committed to justice and equality will change this country. And unfortunately it will take time and effort. But what ever you do don't let your purity or idealism lead you to these pie-in-the-sky wishes that you accuse Obama supporters of clinging to. It won't happen over night and it won't happen with Ralph Nader leading the way.

I don't like it, but it's not enough to push me to McCain, yet. I'd love for the next President (or the next) to start tapping into all of our representatives phones and E's. That would be justice served. Big Brother is coming, and damn quick. Get your squirrel guns ready.

Donkeyman!

I have made this proposal here and elsewhere and no one has taken me up on it:

MAKE A LIST.
What about Barack Obama makes you think he's a progressive? Not character issues but social/political accomplishments. Politicians can say anything, and do. Eminent historian Howard Zinn says Obama is just slightly to the left of the Republicans. And yet, even here on Common Dreams, some still repeat the lie that Obama is progressive. That's just utter nonsense.

Here, I'll make my list of why I know he isn't:

1) Voted for the FISA bill discussed in the above article. It's unconstitutional.

2) Votes to continue the brutal, war on Iraq. Clearly illegal and un-constitutional.

3) Voted against putting caps on credit card interest at 35%. Soak the poor is not progressive!

4) Voted to make it more difficult to sue corporations in class actions. If lead poison retards your kid, too bad!

5) Supports corporate controlled healthcare. every other civilized country in the world has single payer. the vast majority of Americans want single payer. Not Obama.

6) Is calling Iran a terrorist nation, although Iran has not invaded any country for 250 years.

7) Supports Israel over the Palestinians, breaking treaties already in place. Illegal!

8) Supports NAFTA, free trade. Devastates American jobs.

9) No IMPEACHMENT! Says we should save impeachment for "exceptional circumstances." Can you believe that?

10) Has not spoken clearly about TORTURE. Has a wishy-washy stand: http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2008/042108Floyd.shtml

11) In favor of more nuclear power plants.

12) Wants to increase the already enormous military budget.

Come on gang, let's list 'em here! Who else has Obama's number?

These are some of the most crucial issues we face, yet Obama is squarely on the side of corporate money. He is a big beneficiary of defense industry money, health insurance lobby, etc. Check it out.

The mantra, "he has to say these things to get elected," is not valid. You'll be chanting the same thing for years to come because there's always the next election to win. He has the money already, he has the voters support! Do you actually think he'd go under if he came out for single payer health care? A prompt exit from Iraq? 80% of voters want these things. Yet, he says "NO!" He is losing support by shifting right, not gaining.

If you want him to win, you'd better act fast because enough of us are bailing from this two-faced Democrat candidate. It's ignorant to go along any longer. Call him up today and tell him the news: Barack, you're gonna lose to McCain unless you CHANGE.

Yes, WE CAN CHANGE! VOTE NADER! THE PEOPLE'S CANDIDATE!

Attention Democrat Party Congressional Leaders and other Fair Weather Friends of the Constitution:

Just what the %&*@#% do you think you are doing? FISA, a law only dictators could love, violates a whole bunch of unambiguous prohibitions in the Constitution designed for the express purpose of preventing dictatorships. Why then are you cowards giving Bush and his Neocon henchmen, dictator wannabes one and all, exactly what they want? The so-called "improvements" you are helping pass not only violate 200 year old liberties, they wipe out what was clear grounds for impeachment and will let some egregious criminals in the Administration go free to continue their harmful schemes without penalty.

You could have defeated the entire concept merely by doing nothing and letting the odious law expire. Doing nothing is something you have proven so good at over the last several years. Why didn't you continue doing nothing for just once in your increasingly fruitless careers instead of becoming co-conspirators in the dismantlement of everything this country once stood for?

He showed hiss True Colors when he attended the Bilderberg meeting.....

The Dumbass lost my vote, my Moms, my Wifes, My Brothers,,,,, he is pissing it away.....

Would someone please stamp "Wannabe Neocon" on his head!

Coffee,,,,,,,

Why does even the alternative news continue to talk about this as if it is simply a bad bill rather than being the blatant and direct attack upon the constitution and accountability that it is?

Not only does this so-called "law" violate the fourth amendment but also Atricle I, section 9 of the constitution which states:

"No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."

Despite the Latin this is one of the simplest, clearest and most concise prohibitions the constitution has to offer.

A bill of attainder is a law which punishes someone without a trial - essentially the opposite of habeas corpus. In this case it is quite apparent that those who have filed suite against the telecoms are being punished for exercising their legal and constitutional rights, effectively ruling on the case through the use of legislation and usurping the power of the judicial branch. Maintaining the separation of powers was precisely the reason that the prohibition on bills of attainder was included in this section.

In the same simple sentence the constitution absolutely forbids the federal government from making Ex Post Facto law. Ex Post Facto translates to "after the fact". In other words the constitution's prohibition is against retroactive law. If this retroactive immunity does not qualify as Ex Post Facto law then nothing in this universe does. It is eminently clear. There can be no real debate that does not rely solely upon the most outrageous of lies. Even SCOTUS couldn't bend this clear and simple message without every Bible, in every court in the land, spontaneously combusting.

This is a sad sad sad event for anyone hoping that hope can be audacious. Obama has sold his soul to gain the world, and in this he gains nothing. I suppose one can still think that McCain is so bad that he needs to be stopped no matter what. But a vote for Obama will be a cynical vote, a vote without hope. One can vote for Nader without holding one's nose, be we know he cannot win. Is a protest vote for someone we can respect worth the chance of McCain winning? Tough question. But now it's clear that Obama is only a choice that can be made in terms of the lesser to two evils. Perhaps like voting for Mussolini over Hitler. No damn good, but what the heck...

The Presidential system itself is tainted. There is so much money and organization and media control invested in getting someone into the presidency, once they do, they are beholden to the powerful that got them there. The presidency is a role and set of behaviors and a set of power groups that selects its occupant and not the other way round. There is nothing inherently anointing or magical about electing one of the major party nominees except for the backing of a huge organization and money. It guarantees an occupant. Under this model, Mr Bush is not his own man, as should be well known. Other people and forces do his thinking. He is the embodiment of the national interests that supported his campaign. The presidency should be called the Puppetry.

Only the gathering of a large passionate momentum of opposing forces and views from grass roots up can bring about change. If Obama says he represents change, then you have to make sure you can see a large powerful organization behind him with well known views that are independent of the election cycle, and a set of published strong policies that mandate change. But there is no organization as such, and he has only the Democratic Party, which has next to no truly disinterested philosophy on Environment, Climate Change, War, and Independent Science. On all those big issues which really matter and require international cooperation, not US militancy and terror, Obama is a puppet tied by strings of narrow minded interests.

Don't throw away your vote by voting for Obama (and yes, he was a better choice than Hillary). But he supports the corporate agenda, and it is the corporate agenda that is destroying our country and environment.

Make your vote count, vote third party.

(the next Obama letdown is going to be his vice presidential choice, who some apologist will again say is needed to reach out to the so called centrist voters. Lucy lines up another football for Charlie Brown.)

Ralph Nader or Green Party for President

Cindy Sheehan for congress.

In a five hour fit of anger and frustration, I dug up the names and contact information on the 105 "Democratic" traitors who voted to approve the latest version of the "Compromise FISA bill" -- which destroys our Fourth Amendment.  I put the list on a website and will now go about "promoting" it.  Ideally, with your help, we could bring this site to the attention of enough people to develop a viral network that could then gain critical mass among voters to remove these traitors.

Here is the site: 

http://www.cloudbyte.com/traitors.html

Obama is Bush the third.The Republicans are backing him.They know McCain cant win in November.So Obama,who will do anything or say anything to get elected took them up on their deal.This is their only chance to hold on to the White House.The corporate media forced all the other candidates out of the race.The Republicans havent been hitting him like they did Kerry and the other Democrats who have run for the oast few years.Wonder why???

Get on the da*m phone! Was just over at DKos and they are really making a push and getting some results. All of the Senate offices are being swamped with calls and they are all making tallies of the calls. Obama is under a huge amount of pressure to stop this thing. Even Schumer has been turned to vote against this. And Reid too. The important thing is to NOT get cloture. So call your senators! Forget how they stand on FISA. Tell 'em to vote AGAINST cloture and kick this can down the road. Maybe it will even die after the July 4th recess!

If you can't get through today, call again in the morning! And make sure you call Obama and Reid's offices too. NO CLOTURE!!!

Toll-free numbers for Congress:
1 (800) 828 - 0498
1 (800) 459 - 1887
1 (800) 614 - 2803
1 (866) 340 - 9281
1 (866) 338 - 1015
1 (877) 851 – 6437

Oh, and if you can, back up your call with an e-mail to ALL your senators, no matter which party.

Thanks for all you do!

While I feel that Obama's support of FISA is a betrayal of the Constitution and the people who support him, I feel that he is still the only logical choice. The truth is that there is no way Nader is going to get enough votes to become President. All Nader is going to do is make it easier for the Republicans to keep control of the White House. Nader will only dilute the progressive votes, taking away from Obama just like he took from Gore in 2000. (can you imagine what this world would be like if Gore had all the progressive votes in 2000?)

I guess I feel that the most important thing about this election is not whether Obama is center or left, but that the next President will probably nominate up to 3 new Supreme Court Justices. The Supreme Court can be what breaks this FISA if we have the correct Justices on the court. Habeas Corpus barely survived the current Supreme Court line up and only did so because Kennedy swung to the left. Kennedy is the current swing vote on the Supreme Court. Okay, the three Justices who are, according to conventional wisdom, probably going to be leaving the court during the term of the next President are Ruth Bader Ginsburg, John Paul Stevens, and David Hackett Souter. These are three of the Justices who voted to kep Habeas Corpus. If these Justices had left earlier, during the Bush regime, we would have lost Habeas Corpus as Bush would have nominated conservative Justices who would have let Bush do as he will. If another Republican gets into office, it will guarentee a conservative majority on the highest court in the land. This is the court that can help reign in the run away executive branch and decide whether the laws that the roll and bend over congress are constitutional or not. We need to vote for Obama if only to bring the Supreme Court into a more progressive stance. A Supreme Court Justice has a longer effect on the government than the President. A President can serve up to 8 years, but a Justice can serve decades, if they want.

The best way to save our nation is to vote for Obama so he can bring the Supreme Court back to the Constitution. Oh and a mostly Democratic Congress is also important to get the right nominees accepted as the Justice.

It's plausible that all those authoritarians John Dean wrote about in "Conservatives without Conscience" really feel GOOD to know that big brother is watching/listening, kind of like "someone to watch over me." But the unspoken gist of this bill is "TRUST US" to make determinations as to whom is listened to and for what purpose(s). TRUST us when... Katrina left a wonderful city to rot in its own sewage; when war was made on fixed evidence and an elaborate PR machine to seduce public understanding; when our treasury is bankrupt; when this nation has decided torture is so much fun; when the presumed worth of homes has plummeted, etc. ad nauseum.

OUTSIDE THE LOOP/M BRUTON: Excellent posts.

WILL BILLY: In case this interests you, I wrote a script that was based on a clandestine "Manhattan" style "Project" based on choosing to clone a human being who could make an enormous distance in the fight against global corporate capitalism without conscience. I hate to give away who the committee selected for the first CLONE but he's high on your list, too! The script has been adapted into novel format and is entitled: The Caretakers, available at xlibris.com.

Oops... should read make an enormous DIFFERENCE!

Thanks Tarry_Faster! I saw two names in your list that I will remember. Luckily they weren't in my district.

Great Work!

Actually, I think I'll vote for Jesus. He has as much chance of winning as Nader. Or maybe I'll write in Kurt Vonnegut's name. I know he's dead, but what's the difference?

I told you so.

A vote for Obama is a vote for a continuation of the Reagan/Bush/Cheney policies. The "difference" between Obama and McCain? In an Obama administration those policies will be carried out under the banner of the Democrats.

If all those who say they WOULD vote for Nader except that he has "no chance" would simply vote for Nader, he would be our next president. President Nader. I like the way that sounds.

It only takes 41 votes in the Senate for a filibuster to continue and for the FISA bill never to come to a vote!

Correction below

To all those people who are having a hissy fit because Obama doesn't satisfy your every whim, try to understand that he has to attract as many independents and moderate republicans as possible to get elected. Unlike other Democratic presidential candidates, he is not moving rightward so much as trying to persuade undecided voters to move left. Remember that FDR ran as a moderate in 1932 but governed with a pragmatic agenda so progressive that he was angrily denounced as a traitor to his class. The voters rewarded him with reelection in 1936 (and '40 and '44). If you don't like Obama, I suspect you wouldn't have liked FDR in 1932 either. Take enough time out from your tantrums to learn some history.

oncemanc June 25th, 2008 9:17 pm

"To all those people who are having a hissy fit because Obama doesn't satisfy your every whim, try to understand that he has to attract as many independents and moderate republicans as possible to get elected. Unlike other Democratic presidential candidates, he is not moving rightward so much as trying to persuade undecided voters to move left. Remember that FDR ran as a moderate in 1932 but governed with a pragmatic agenda so progressive that he was angrily denounced as a traitor to his class."

It's not about Obama satisfying "every whim". I'm tired of the "purity" strawman. Obama has been moving to the right: Caving in on FISA, embracing NAFTA after denouncing Clinton for supporting it, sucking up to AIPAC, etc. If my support for the Bill of Rights is a "hissy fit" and a "tantrum", then so be it. I'm sorry if I'm a little skeptical of ripping up our civil liberties and throwing them in the garbage in the hope that we can do some dumpster diving and tape them back together again "later" after Obama wins.

FDR's move to the left was motivated at least in part by a desire to prevent the rise of the Socialist Party. Just because FDR moved to the left after winning doesn't mean that Obama will. For most of my life, the Democrats have shifted to the right after winning. They only shift left (like Gore and Kerry) after they lose!

Bob K- No, you're absolutely wrong. You're pulling this "fact" out of where? Are you just a victim of Hillary mathlexia or do you simply have no functioning relationship with reality? If all the people (like me) who say they would prefer Nader voted for him, he still would not get close to even a respectable showing. There are still Republicans in this country, not just faux revolutionaries on CD. There are moderate Democrats. There are Centrist Democrats. Not all Democrats LIKE Nader's ideas.

You are amazingly, almost magically, wrong.

I am voting my conscience and the hope for a better world. I am voting for Nader. Obama is one of them. How much more proof do you want?

I'm an Australian, so I'm a mere spectator in the coming Presidential election, but nevertheless, if I may...

Reading CommonDreams, I've seen a lot of progressives criticise the idea of voting for Ralph Nader (or Cynthia McKinney?) because doing so may help McCain to win. While I acknowledge that this is indeed a very tough choice (believe me, the rest of the world does NOT want another George Bush in the White House in the form of John McCain), I believe that this really is a time in which you need to stand up for what YOU THE PEOPLE believe in.

In Australia, our government has been dominated for decades in the same way as yours by two parties - the Liberals (Republicans) and Labor (Democrats), who seemed for a long time to be two faces of the same crew. Since enrolling to vote, I have never given my vote to either party, and instead have always voted Green, because the Greens are a real Party with real values. I did this knowing that the Greens would not win.

And yet, the Greens are now the fastest growing Party in Australia. Labor has recognised this trend, and the current leader of the Labor Party (also, after winning last year's election, the Prime Minister) now leads the most progressive government we have seen in a very long time.

The point I am trying to make is that a vote for a third Party IS NOT A WASTE.

It is a fact that Ralph Nader WILL NOT win this election. But perceiving this as a reason for voting for a Party you do not believe will do the right thing once elected is ludicrous. Voting for the Party that has the better chance of winning elections is what lands us with two-party oligarchies in the first place. What I am saying to progressives in the United States who are unhappy with the same-shit-different-day policies you are being handed is to stop voting for Democrats today. Vote for a third Party! Right now it is clear that the Democrats do not give two shits about your wishes because they know there is no alternative to their bullshit other than the even more retarded Republicans.

GIVE THEM ONE!

Trust me, if Democrats were to take a dive at the polls in both the Presidential and Congressional elections in favour of real progressive Parties, they will pull their finger out and start to take notice. I saw it happen in Australia, and I see no reason why it cannot happen in the United States.

I know nobody wants McCain to win (who does?) but if you keep throwing your votes at the Democrats regardless of the conservative bullshit they pull, the Democrats will _never change_. The way I see it, as an outsider, is that progressives need to say "No more." Send a message to the fat cats in the Democratic Party that they can no longer claim the progressive vote unless they start acting like progressives.

Just my two cents.

Oh, and by the way, make sure you take care of that Kucinich guy! Hell knows the world needs more politicians like him.

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

I had been intrigued by Obama's message of change during the primaries. Originally I was a Kucinich supporter, but after he withdrew I was willing to give Obama a chance. He IS an inspiring speaker and I found myself trying/hoping to believe in him. After he clinched the nomination however he has steadily disappointed me, AIPAC, "Chicago school" economic advisors, FISA cave in etc. Change you can believe in? Where is the change? Maybe his health policy which will mandate me to purchase health insurance from for profit insurance companies? I guess that would be a change....

Does anyone believe that either a republican or democrat would ever reform the electoral process to allow third parties to compete? I don't see it, perhaps someone can enlighten me. I will be voting for Nader. I would strongly encourage anyone who truly wants to change the system to do the same. Not necessarily Nader, but any third party candidate.

The only way things will change is if one or both major parties realize that they are losing large amounts of support. If ~80 percent of the country thinks we are headed in the wrong direction then I don't understand how anyone thinks that a third party cannot pull in a respectable number of votes. Will they win this election? No. Change will be gradual, but unless we actually do start voting for a change the status quo dem/rep power structure will prevail.

PS. before you tell me I'm throwing my vote away I'm in Illinois... If Obama can't carry this state without me then....