The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

...Surely some revelation is at hand.
W.B.Yeats

Clifford June 18th, 2008 9:52 pm
"Helping ordinary people discover the power of their own collective action is often a revolutionary thing."

So how can we help ordinary people discover the power of their own collective action to elect a 3rd party candidate? That's the problem we should try to solve before November. These people have the power, if only they could be made to realize it.

Thomas More! Gott mit Uns!

"Some Americans are good. Other Americans are bad. And the good ones are often lazy, willing to let the bad ones get their way."

MLK: "In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

Interesting to note, if anyone has been paying attention.

Now that the detainees have been accorded by the supreme court the right to appear before a judge, the major media are reporting that the detainees in Guantanamo are becoming radicalized(meaning that as soon as we let one go, he will fly a plane into a mall)

ps: Does anyone else notice that when Bush holds a press conference or makes a public statement he looks like he is trying hard not to laugh(at us)?

>>Since so many of you folks seem so bent on repeating the mantra of the Marxists, have such a superior moral certitude and are so educated past we mere mortals, those that weren't there, but know all about it, I'll try my best to be quiet. But don't insult us. None of you have earned the right.

So let me get this straight. Unless one is willing to go to a country that is no threat to ones own, and has never been a threat to ones own, and kill people there, they have no right to speak as to how wrong and criminal such an act is?

I am sorry Mr Moore, but being willing to to kill people who were never a threat to the United States of America hardly gives one the exclusive right to an opinion.

That you were dupes of the American War machine and can not face the fact you were dupes, and want to make it into something "noble and pure" is a problem you must deal with yourself. Some people just do not buy into that propaganda.

Geeze Mr Moore as if you proved yours. It a fact that no matter what country a soldier serves for they will demonize the enemy while minimizing their own atrocities.

The FACT is My Lai was covered up until it was exposed by Seymour Hersh. There were no US soldiers running out in droves to condemn the actions.The Pentagon covered it up as they did a number of other atrocities.

The fact is the bulk of the US forces in Calley's command participated in the massacre.Only one was charged.

The fact is the US forces knowingly and willingly dropped bombs on Civilians. This was no "accident" it was deliberate.

Claiming the Viet Cong were worse hardly explains the outcome of that war, namely that the bulk of the Vietnamese supported the Viet Cong as witnessed by the absolute collapse of the Army of South Vietnam when the Americans withdrew.

As to the Us helping out the french. The biggest crock yet heard. The french had no business in Vietnam. The US had no business supporting their return to Vietnam. It was imperialism pure and simple and the US and the french were the bad guys and the aggressors.

There are US soldiers returning from Iraq who claim there are no atrocities being committed, that the war is just and they fight for freedom. Just because they serve in uniform does not mean they speak the truth.

So you tell me Thomas Moore....if American GIS who serve in Iraq and suport that war in Iraq are wrong, then how is it you must be right by virtue of having served in Vietnam?

For all you that believe Nader is the Second Coming of Christ, a man that can do no wrong, that never plays the game, you're gonna fucking love this. Here's his remarks on the passing of Tim Russert:

Tim Russert, through his verve, directness and human touch became the symbol of the Sunday interview show. A strong interrogator of the many slippery guests who appeared on his show, Tim combined searching questions with a smile. He let the guests make their points instead of cutting them off but kept Meet the Press moving at the same time. In my recent conversation with him, he said he believed "in intellectual tension."

Journalism and the country will miss him dearly.

See kids, Nader's human too. Sorry.

"But you seem to be stuck in a time warp and I guess you'll never be able to understand that."

I don't think so. What I was trying to tell you is that a lot of what you read is BS. You don't hear about the atrocities committed by the NVA. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you thought we were fighting Charlie all the time. Thats what they put in the books. Wasn't true. You won't seem to learn not to believe all you are told.

The reasons why we were in Viet Nam are nothing like Iraq. Eisenhower started out to help the French, then he tried to keep the Republic above water, Kennedy ramped up a bit, then Johnson dropped the driver on it.

We are in Iraq because a bunch of nutbags are in charge. Didn't care for Johnson (At All), but I wouldn't insult him by comparing him to Bush/Cheney/etc.

GwNorth June 19th, 2008 12:10 pm

Yeah boy, that really proved your point didn't it? Geezzze!

greenerthanthou June 19th, 2008 4:03 pm
"Thomas More alternates between denying and justifying the more one-on-one brutalities of the american attack on vietnam."

We didn't attack Viet Nam, don't you know anything. This is what I keep saying. Repeating falsehoods and misinformation may feel good but its pure BS.

RichM June 19th, 2008 3:06 pm
What I'm telling you is that a lot of the information you are basing your judgement is incorrect and reflects a political agenda.

(Let me try to explain it this way, last year my Father got to go back to the Islands where he served in WW2. Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Bougainville, etc on a cruise. On the cruise there was a professor giving lectures about the campaign's. He was telling them about the assualt
on Iwo Jima and speaking about the Surabachi approach. He told them what happened, the Third Marines had been repulsed with light casualties and withdrew after two days, then First Marines had followed up the next day and cleared everything half way up. My Dad stood up with another from 1st Maribnes and told him that 3rd Marines had been on the slopes for 5 days, lost over a thousand men, he was one of 11 left from his company on withdrawal and they dodn't consider that "light casaulties" or a couple of days. The 1st Marine told him that they went up the next day all right but they were there almost two weeks and they must have missed that easy one day clearance. My point is, you may not know what really happened, so perhaps it would be a good idea to think a little more before you make a sily extrapolation of rerasoning like that. You aren't usually one of the non-thinkers.
"Deny it all you want, Thomas More, Mr. How I Suffered Being a Storm Trooper For American Imperialism. You can get all the strokes you want from corporate media, you're not getting it here."

I was a United States Marine. Till you grow up I wouldn't insult men. You know I don't see any reason to be polite to an arrogant little coward, so FYATHYRIO.

Since so many of you folks seem so bent on repeating the mantra of the Marxists, have such a superior moral certitude and are so educated past we mere mortals, those that weren't there, but know all about it, I'll try my best to be quiet. But don't insult us. None of you have earned the right.

Its going to be hard though because I've never seen more people that don't know a damn thing about something, won't take the time to do real research to find out. But its always easier to make the facts fit the theory isn't it.

Opeluboy - you're not stupid and your position isn't a sellout.

I think that sas bad and disgusting as most Democrats are, they're not as bad and disgusting as most Republicans. Politics can't do other than reflect the imperfections of us humans as we are in the present. By definition, politics is about one group of imperfect people misruling -and being resisted by- another. Obviously, there are huge degrees of imperfection within the human lot. Sometimes the reformers have better, more humane values than their oppressors. Sometimes not.
When it comes to changing things through politics, you either have the means to create a durable and humane revolution overnight, or you do not. 1917 Russian Bolsheviks for example had the means to create a durable revolution virtually overnight; it was durable for 75 years, but it was also just as inhumane as what it replaced. We Progressives in the US do not have the means to change much of anything via standard politics just now. That means that to the extent we continue working within our corrupt political forms, we have to be prepared for degress imperfection in both candidates and system tools, even as we try to foster better candidates and fashion better tools. The reality is that for now, a quick political revolution within the system is no more in the cards than a violent revolution from the outside.
I believe we progressives should put our major efforts toward working outside of this rotten system, to create new community, people-based economic forms -- BUT simultaneously doing what we can to blunt and reform the worst of the present system from within. If we do this, instead of holding out for faith-based perfectionist fantasies, then at some point, the two lines of effort stand a chance of converging.

Goebbels sez made the only pertinent comment:
When I want to make a useless vote, I punch it into a Diebold machine.
(That is, we'll get the president the ruling class wants to give us. I believe it will be a democrat this time. Got to make folks think there's gonna be a change, you know!)

Then opelboy ignores it and chatters on excitedly about the importance of voting democrat, cause look at the Supreme Court! (This is now the democrats big argument).

Just ignore the fact that this is the 3rd time the Supreme court has voted against bush on the guantanamo issue. How's that working out?

And Thomas More alternates between denying and justifying the more one-on-one brutalities of the american attack on vietnam.

Anti-war people point out that besides the atrocities committed by ordinary soldiers, testified to by the Winter soldier truth-tellers, and the mass tortures and murders of the American supported Phoneix Program (somewhere between 20,000 and 80,000, but who's counting?) the official impersonal murders and devastation caused by mass bombings, and spraying of Agent Orange, the destruction of food crops and animals, and the concentration camps (oops, strategic hamlets), adding up to around 3,000,000 dead Vietnamese at the time, not counting the birth defects and cancers and leftover bombs still going off makes it obvious that the USA committed war crimes in Vietnam.

Deny it all you want, Thomas More, Mr. How I Suffered Being a Storm Trooper For American Imperialism. You can get all the strokes you want from corporate media, you're not getting it here.

Thomas More thinks you had to be in Vietnam in order to make a proper judgement about what happened.

By that standard, no Americans would be allowed to stand in judgement of Nazi Germany, or of Stalin's gulags. After all, most of us weren't there.

Over 50 percent of American GIS in Iraq still think Saddam had something to do with 9/11. They too are over there. Being there hardly suggests one must be informed.

This directed at Thomas More who suggests that one has to have been in Vietnam in order to make an assessment of what in fact occurred.

Look to the recent information being released about South Korea and its massacre of tens of thousands of Civilians that they felt were a threat to the Government. US troops were over there so why were they not aware of it and why did it not become part of the dialogue 40 years ago?

The simple fact is one is not let into the loop just by virtue of being in the Military. My Lai was not exposed until long after it in fact happened. It took one of those guys behind a typewriter to do so. The US Military tried to cover it up. Does Mr More suggest that ALL Americans who were serving in Vietnam knew of My lai before it was exposed by Mr Hersh and were part of that same coverup?

There is a rather infamous picture of a person being shot in the head with a pistol by an officer. It obviously an execution. One person who served in Vietnam and suggested any that did not serve had no idea what Americans were there fighting against used this picture as an example of how corrupt and murderous the Viet Cong were. He was uninformed.

The picture was of a South Vietnamese officer executing a captured member of the Viet Cong.

Thomas More--I'm not judging the "poot schmuks" that were there. I'm judging the leaders who sent them there, just as I'm judging the leaders who got us into this debacle. But you seem to be stuck in a time warp and I guess you'll never be able to understand that.

pod June 19th, 2008 9:08 am
Thomas More–Did you ever hear of the Mai-Lai massacre? Google it.

Ever hear of Tsong Fe? Bien Hoa? Dong Nai? I'm sure you haven't. Thats part of the other side of the coin. Of course I know about Mai-Lai, it was led by a man unfit to command. There were a few others you won't find on Google. 15-20 people 3 times we knew of.

I was at Tsong Fe so don't give me the revisionist BS you get here most of the time.

Just remember the people that are judging the poor schmuks that were there, that protested the war, did it from the safety of the US. Not that they were wrong to protest....most of us would have joined them if we could. But be careful in your judgement if you don't know anything about what its like to wear a hat when its hot or fill a hole.

If you think saying "ever heard of Mai-Lai tells you there were hundreds of atrocities ...there weren't. Nor wholesale killing nor any of that other propaganda put out by the Fonda types then and now.

It was not a good place to be, but any veteran knows exactly what I'm saying. Last note, any "Viet Nam" veteran that says differently I can assure you he never got further from the plane than a type writer in the rear.

Google won't explain it.

We're not lazy, we go to the polls and pull a lever once or twice a year!

Why do we keep arguing and desparing over leaders when most of us already seem to know the direction we must go and the place we want to get to? Do we even need a leader? Why can't we be the leaders? We can go there ourselves--be the change we wish to see in the world, as Gandhi said. Bush's policies are carried out by citizens--we, the people. The president is not a Superman, able to do it himself.

Thomas More--Did you ever hear of the Mai-Lai massacre? Google it.

The USA citizen still needs to try the leadership who brought us the Vietnam war. Henry Kissinger, McNamara, and the few other living monsters of evil comes to mind.

But, the current crop of evil doers continue to live and work in the White House, Congress, and the courts.

Vote Nader. For real believable change.

sl63 [June 18th, 2008 7:33 pm], another poster who needs a reading lesson. I PARAPHRASED Weinberg's original quote, which was on religion:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg, The New York Times, April 20, 1999.

Here are some important quotes from Robert Jensen's article that you posted a link to:

"As we parted he said to me, with what I took to be a condescending smirk, 'Don't romanticize Palestinians just because they are primitive.'

"Primitive? What could he mean by that? Was he just being provocative, to see how I would react?" [...]

"I cannot know what was, or is, in Weinberg's heart when he called Palestinians primitive. I don't know what he believes about Arab people more generally."

So Jensen really didn't know what Weinberg meant. Here's what I know about Weinberg: He's at least an agnostic about religion, if not a full-blown atheist, as the above quote demonstrates, so he would hardly support Israel for religious reasons. He is also a provocateur who says rude things, as Jensen noted, just to provoke conversation and explore new avenues of thought. None of this necessarily adds up to the 'hater' of primitive people that your comment implied, as even Jensen admitted.

Opeluboy, I think you're right, and I'll post more to that effect later but, at the moment, I have to get back to work.

As one of those who protested against the Vietnam invasion, (Sometimes I still can't bring myself to call it a war, since it was never declared.) I'd just like to say that there have been times when I thought it would have been a whole lot better to have had LBJ (or HHH) for a few more years, instead of Nixon.

The thought hasn't stopped me from voting third party regularly since then, but ve overseas, I'll have to do it by mail ballot. I may decide to vote third party if it seems clear that Obama will win comfortably in my state, otherwise vote for him, as I don't want McCain under any circumstances.

VietNam was a Democratic War. NeoCons merely picked it up. It is the MIC. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Doom n Gloom has gotten the picture.

The US of A, much like western european "nations", is a fake, a fraud, and frankly nothing more than yet another nation of self-centered, gorged, morally and ethically characterless materialist slobs willingly supporting their own chosen representatives crimes against the innocent. Including their own ignorant selves.

The time for a global revolution against the tyranny of the corporate criminals (the majority owners of just about any corporation you care to name...) as well as the global witch hunt for every single media majority owner and their so called "journalists" who happily take their paycheck while willingly printing the known lies, is long overdue.

Prisons don't rehabilitate, they just create craftier criminals. This whole episode is a great example of the exportation and failure of "American" (see U.S.) values and institutions is a colossal failure that could (and was) seen lightyears away. Bravo. Maybe we should try it all again and hope for a different result?

"Right-wingers say security matters can only be entrusted to the military. "

That's a curious and convenient double standard considering how much of the military's security work has been outsourced to Blackwater, Caci, etc. Of course, you can't criticize "the military" and not be pegged as "the enemy".

^^^^ Hmmm. "You can't conquer alienation with alienated means." I like that. :^)

Arvy, I suspect the strength of his convictions stems from having "sharpened his dialectics on impending situations".

^^^^ As I said, I'm not doubting your personal convictions about post-election accomplishments after putting Democrats in power. But I see no basis for them, neither in recent historical precedent, nor in the ongoing political activities and campaigns. But I wish you luck nonetheless. You'll certainly need it.

BTW, you didn't really answer my basic question about pre-election vs post-election support for the progressive agenda. But that's okay.

Arvy - Yes, or I wouldn't have written it.

I am not so naive as to expect transformation of our country over night, but I can tell you that in my lifetime I have witnessed some change that people at the time would have called impossible. Most happened during Democratic administrations.

I'm 55. I have a chance to vote for a black man for president. I had the choice to opt for a woman as well. That is not meaningless. I grew up during segregation.

Obama is not my dream candidate, but he has one thing right: change comes from the bottom up. He has put a movement together, and done it with people like you and me. He will be a power broker in DC for some time. But that base will rightly expect something for their efforts.

I am all for holding his feet to the fire when he's elected. It will be required.

A majority of Americans have no problem with gay marriage, desire single-payer healthcare, are against the Iraq war, want alternative energy choices pursued, believe in a woman's right to choose, etc. We have come a long way, if you look backwards.

I remain convinced that we can accomplish more with a Democratic Congress and president than without. Easily, no, but possible.

It's really no question at all for me.

opeluboy June 18th, 2008 10:21 pm -- 'Yes, we must work together and keep the pressure on.'

I certainly don't doubt your own sincerity, but do you really think that is any more likely to happen and to be effective after electing a Democratic president than it has been after electing a Democratic majority in the House? And, if so, how do you persuade people like Rockerbabe1 (the vast majority IMO) to participate when they believe that January 21, 2009 will make it all pass 'into faded irrelevant memory'.

I apologise in advance for my cynicism, but I just don't see it happening. What the 'no choice' crowd really seem to be saying is that it's impossible to elect anyone as President of the United States of America who truly reflects and will honestly represent progressive values. If that is so, how would you expect to gain popular support for your causes after electing someone else? And, perhaps even more basic, would a progessive agenda actually merit popular support if it can't win a sufficient number of votes in an election?

To be perfectly blunt, if the majority of USans are content to vote for whatever the "two-party" presidential candidates represent, perhaps they'd better prepare themselves to accept the results of their "democratic" validation of that system.

Clifford - I was in those marches, and have a lasting bump on the back of my skull to prove it. I was harassed almost daily by the cops for not carrying my draft card. I got beaten up by rednecks for protesting and implicated in a traffic accident by a redneck cop that prevented me from driving for several years, all because I was a hippie and war protester.

Yes, we ended the Vietnam war, but not without a lot of media help. We also had a lot more casualties. And a draft.

Before the Iraq war, the world witnessed the largest anti-war demonstrations in the history of the planet. They went largely unnoticed. The war was launched. Millions are dead.

Yes, we must work together and keep the pressure on. But do you suppose it would be easier to do this during a McCain administration or an Obama administration?

Kman2 - I believe that is a growing phenomenon here, although I hardly felt so outgunned a few months ago. I think they'll come around. Most of the posters, except for the trolls who were impersonating Clinton supporters, are intelligent, well-meaning people. I hope that as the campaign begins, and they are allowed to see the clear differences between a McCain administration and an Obama one, they will opt to give Obama a chance.

The alternative is too awful.

Nancy and opal - I experience the same thing, and I believe opal is giving some good advice.

It is indeed frustrating. I know people who are of course just ignorant Republican war fodder, and nothing makes a dent in them. But I also know well-meaning, moral, even one could say "spiritual" people who just don't want to upset their pleasant fantasy of what they believe life to be. They have bumper stickers that say as much.

Unfortunately for them, they will suffer just like the rest of us, whether they put any "negative energy" into the situation or not. Still got to put gas in a Prius, jaboticaba isn't any cheaper, Ziggy Marley and Alpha Blondy still charge when they come to Big Island and pakalolo is about $125 a quarter. Worst of all, their children will still be eligible to fight in foreign wars, no matter how cosmic their upbringing.

Complacency will kill us yet.

Ted you know i love ya,and most of this piece is very good. But this "oops" tuff won't do. As you know perfectly well, the establishment and rapid growth of the Gulag, and all the torture- all this was done on purpose, and deliberately planned.
there is nothing "oops" about it. And it's not about being lazy slobs either. would that it were. These guys are wicked mean and nasty, and far to energetic in their torturing of innocents.

Opelubuy: "Ralph Nader is the only hope we have? Then I suggest suicide. Ralph Nader (a personal hero of mine for decades) has as much chance of being president as I do. And even if everyone who thought as we do voted for him, it would accomplish only one thing: putting McCain in the White House.

Right. I know I'm going to be slammed for this. But please reacquaint yourselves with reality. Nader, McKinney or whoever is not going to be the president. It will be McCain or Obama. That's your choice. Don't like it? I'm sorry."

Opelubou, rational pragmatism has no place in CD. CD is very very anti-obama and that's it. No other thought is allowed. Not sure some of the posters here realize that yet.

When many thousands of people come together and march for a demand like Bring the Troops Home Now or to support a labor struggle, they have real power. History is brimming with examples of where mass pressure has forced reactionary politicians to change policy. Republican President Nixon forced to withdraw from Vietnam for example.

To put all the energy into electing a hopefully lesser evil politician (Obama for example) ignores other proven methods to bring change. And it makes people lower their expectations. Helping ordinary people discover the power of their own collective action is often a revolutionary thing.

knowthegreedyslime - (great handle), another excellent point. We saw just last week that something as basic to Western civilization as habeus corpus survived (we hope) by a 5/4 vote. The reasoning of the dissenting judges, and the Republicans who put them there, should be enough to convince even the most benighted that this is not the time to fuck around.

The next president will likely appoint three new Supremes — for life. Someone tell me Obama would appoint the same sort as McCain.

Nancy

When people are in denial it's often because the truth is terrifying and they see no alternatives. When that's the case, piling on more scary news can be less productive than educating them about positive alternatives and actions.

opeluboy is absolutely correct. After posting the same explaination at various times during the primaries I've come to the conclusion that many people live in a world where mathematical probability does not exist. So let me try this one question. How many new Supreme Court justices can John McCain possibly have a chance to nominate in 4 years?

Mahalo, bidelo!

Words are Important - Citing Debs is hardly an argument. Why not Larouche?

Yes, whether you like it or not, there are only two choices. You will have a President McCain or a President Obama. Certainly you do not dispute this fact. Your posts show no signs of dementia.

As I have said, if you have read my posts on this subject, I have tremendous respect for Nader, and maybe even more for McKinney. I would prefer either to Obama.

But, hello, reality. Neither will be president. That is not me being defeatist or suggesting that a 3rd party is not a good thing. It's just being realistic. If Nader or McKinney had even the slightest chance of winning, they would get my vote. I'd risk that. But I'm not going to piss my vote away in a protest that will impress no one, accomplish nothing and put someone even worse than Bush in office. Do you really think the corrupt Democrats are going to see a handful of votes going to Nader and all of a sudden get religion? They've been through this before!

We all want change. I would settle for armed rebellion right now, but it isn't going to happen. In the meantime, I'd like to keep things from getting even worse. And I mean worse in biblical proportions.

Our country can't take it. Neither can the rest of the world.

I'm not going to help Armageddon along just to flip off the Democrats.

If you want to hear or read Ralph Nader's comments from his appearance on Democracy Now!

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/18/ralph_nader_on_barack_obama_it

Quote - So, to sum it up, really, our campaign is to subordinate corporate power to the sovereignty of the people. Why is that a radical notion? Doesn't the Constitution start with "We the people"? Ralph Nader

Go to the above website where he talks about Obama.

enough said...

opeluboy, thank you! Most of us here on CD would love to see Nader/McKinney/Kucinich, etc. be president. But the problem is it's not going to happen. Yes it's wrong, yes the system is broken, but we're stuck with it at this time. It's easy to be an idealist. You can sit there an criticize Obama, then when he (as president) throws a bone to the MIC, you can say "Told you so." It's far more difficult to be a pragmatist, and take the heat when things don't come off completely PC. Nader can say anything he wants, beacuse he'll never win. Obama gets "caught" not wearing a flag pin and his ratings go down 10%. Is it wrong? Yes. Are people stupid? Yes! But it's all we've got right now folks.

People who say that there are only two choices are being misleading. I don't deny that Nader has little chance of winning, but that is because the media and political process are corrupted, and people, like many on this site, would settle for voting for a candidate who can 'win' rather than one who will represent their values.

The democratic and republican party machine will not allow any candidate to win who will challenge the corporate agenda. That is why you have to step outside to third parties before anything has even a chance of changing.

"I would rather vote for what I want and not get it, then vote for what I don't want and get it." Eugene Debs

This is the question, who is throwing away their vote? The voters for Obama who say that they care about ending the war and justice? Or voting for Ralph Nader (or third party candidates who actually represent values that address those concerns?

It' like watching Charlie Brown trying to kick the football again and again, and each time the democratic party (played by Lucy) snatches that ball away at the last second. And the voters will continue to get betrayed by the democratic party.

The fact that impeachment and war crimes are off the table does make the democratic party complicit in those crimes committed by Bush and Co. Just like if a cop who is the getaway car for a bank robber because he says the prosecution of bank robbers is off the table.

Goebbels - Yes, yes, yes, things suck. Yes, life is unfair. Yes, Bush stole the last 2 elections. Yes, our whole system needs rewiring. Yes, we have too few choices. Yes, we need a viable 3rd party.

Putting McCain in office should take care of that for you.

opeluboy sez: "If you want to make a useless, anonymous protest vote, do so. And then please shut the fuck up for the next four years if McCain becomes president."

Actually, when I want to make a useless vote, I punch it into a Diebold or ES&S machine.

p.s. — Regarding wasted votes ... is the corporatocracy still using the electoral college? Maybe you could look that up for us.

"...more good competent people doing good competent things and fewer inept evil people doing inept evil things".

Steven Weinberg, the Nobel prize winning physicist, who said that isn't opposed to doing evil things in principle, especially when it comes to "primitive" people.

ryski - Indeed it is. Fight for it. Meanwhile, we have two wars going on, a bankrupt country, environmental collapse, and more problems than I need to list here. We have people trying to start another war, possibly a nuclear one. Yes, go play Build a Real Democracy. Let's hope our country survives long enough to see it happen.

Even better. Initiate the draft. That will get some of the faux revolutionaries who post here pissing in their pants at the thought that it may actually cost them something.

opeluboy June 18th, 2008 6:22 pm: Okay, I'm ready to be told how stupid I am.
Good.
Better yet: a system where votes are cast according to the voters beliefs and not some manipulative calculation is worth fighting for.

Ralph Nader is the only hope we have? Then I suggest suicide. Ralph Nader (a personal hero of mine for decades) has as much chance of being president as I do. And even if everyone who thought as we do voted for him, it would accomplish only one thing: putting McCain in the White House.

Right. I know I'm going to be slammed for this. But please reacquaint yourselves with reality. Nader, McKinney or whoever is not going to be the president. It will be McCain or Obama. That's your choice. Don't like it? I'm sorry.

If you want to make a useless, anonymous protest vote, do so. And then please shut the fuck up for the next four years if McCain becomes president.

Is the Democratic party worth getting excited about? Hell no. Would Nader make an excellent president? Hell yes. Will this ever happen? Really? You think it's possible? Do you really?

Is Obama the Messiah? No, not by lightyears. But if you can't see that he is hugely preferrable over McCain, if you can see absolutely no differences, think life will be indentical under either one, think the world sees no distinction, then you are about as informed as the average Fox viewer who thinks McCain is a maverick.

Okay, I'm ready to be told how stupid I am. How I'm a sell-out. Fine. But goddamn it, I'm determined to live in the real world, not some faith-based fantasy land where Nader gets to be president and McKinney Secretary of State.

I get the feeling that a lot of posters here must still be living in their parents' basement. Please grow up.

I am furious with Nancy Pelosi about the no impeachment matter, however, I think that those of you who have written that she supports and encourages torture need to give some solid sources. Otherwise you are spreading unsubstantiated rumor, much like the Republicans.
The responsibility for torture rests on the heads of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, John Koos, Alberto Gonzoles, Donnald Rumsfelt, Condi Rice, and the neocons who love them. (Read all about it in the right wing St. Paul Pioneer Press, of all unlikely places. June16-18)

Apologists (like Tom More) for murderous mass genocide regimes are often so soft-skinned and sensitive to the fainetst slight, that it seems so cruel to persist and even mention the camps, gulags, toture chambers, and the devastated landscapes left behind by terrorist regimes.
And heavyrunner wasn't joking. He just simply did not get his figures right. Yes, Stalin is hard to compete with in sheer numbers, but when you add up the "demographic shortfalls" for countries in which the US has fought wars since WWII, we surely give Hitler a good run, and leave poor old Pol Pot eating our dust.

the only difference between our "wonderful", American leaders and Pol Pot, Stalin and yes, Hitler are the numbers of the dead and persecuted.

You must be joking.

heavyrunner June 18th, 2008 5:16 pm

So you are one of those "everyone knows that" types that has no specific knowledge. No first hand stories. But know all about it.

You can always tell when someone has no knowledge or is fairly "ignorant" when they resort to insults with no answers when someone asks a question.

Please see Ralph Nader's interview on Democracy Now today. Please vote for Ralph Nader. He really is the only hope we have at this point.

The only hope for our local Pol Pots and Hitlers in Washington, D.C. is the International Criminal Court because they can be pardoned for crimes and not be subjected to prosecution in this country. But that doesn't fly internationally. Furthermore, the only difference between our "wonderful", American leaders and Pol Pot, Stalin and yes, Hitler are the numbers of the dead and persecuted.

What we know is terrible. What is being kept secret from us must be even more terrible. Hiding prisoners from the Red Cross: we know. "Secret" detension centers: we also know. Given these tendencies from the people who operate this system it is easy to assume that they are operating secretly in areas that have not yet been revealed. Sadly, there is no mechanism to probe for revalation of these activities.

The U.S. is now a nation of "Good Germans." Absolutely everything that has been going on in the U.S. over the last 8 years is exactly the same as what happened in Germany that gave rise to Hitler's power and atrocities. EVERYTHING. Ref: "The 14 Characteristics of Fascism" - look it up.

Americans and their 'representatives' are being cowardly, compliant "Good Americans" -- following the party line, either too scared to revolt, or filling their pockets with blood money...all the while allowing the mass murder of innocents and the enrichment of the wealthy elite, even at their own expense and that of their children! Not to mention no justice for this violated democracy or the ONE MILLION SLAUGHTERED IRAQI MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

Yes, like I was - a single parent, believing that I was keeping abreast of what's going on if I could watch the 10pm news before collapsing into fitful sleep each night - most Americans are fighting for their and their family's economic and physical lives, or struggling to "be, do and buy" what corporate propaganda says they should. (Bread and Circuses) They don't have a clue about what's really going on and don't understand they are being kept in the dark by the corporate media that profits from MASS MURDER IN IRAQ, who censor real news and truth.

But now the truth is out there. Dennis Kucinich has courageously challenged even those Democrats complicit in the Bush Administration's war crimes: Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer and others, including John Conyers, who wrote the book on Bush's and the Republicans' crimes, "Constitution in Crisis," but has now GONE OVER TO THE DARK SIDE.

How can Pelosi allow impeachment and prosecution of Bush and Cheney for high crimes and war crimes, when she, herself, is guilty of approving and encouraging torture and illegal surveillance? She would then have to be impeached, herself, as she ascends to the presidency, or her guilt would undermine the impeachment of Bush and Cheney, who she collaborated with!

It's a real Catch-22, folks. The only hope is that there is no statute of limitations on MURDER OR TREASON.

Please contribute to Cindy Sheehan's campaign to unseat Pelosi in her district in San Francisco -- and good riddance! And help all of those new candidates who are running on impeachment. THEY are the ones who, as they take office next January, will assure this nation that justice will be done.

the Supremes ruled against the forced relocation of the Cherokee nation and ole Hickory said 'let them try and stop me' and the Trail of Tears resulted
the court has no "real" power to stop the shrub from doing whatever he wants

I have no answers, only observations and despair

Three million Vietnamese people died as a result of the U.S. war machine in their country. Viet Nam never attacked the United States. We fought a war of aggression because capitalism was afraid that socialism would prove better able to meet people's needs.

The global war on socialism was long dirty and deadly.

C.I.A. manuals detailing torture methods have leaked out over the years.

Anyone who doubts that the U.S. has committed war crimes is just ignorant.

"Thanks to a 5-4 decision by the Supreme Court, America's latest flirtation with fascism is coming to an end." Were this true, I would be delighted, but it seems overly optimistic. These folk will give lip service to obeying the court decision, but they know that Congress will do nothing to enforce it. The days in which the Supreme Court could count on its decisions having meaning is past. These folk will accept Supreme Court decisions only when they are convenient. The law has meaning only when it is used to keep the powerful in power. Otherwise, the law is a scam.

Question by Mordechai: "What have the lazy and cowardly Democrats done about Bush/Cheney in the last nearly two years?"

Answer: They have joined ranks with them and protected them. Remember...impeachment is OFF the table and has been since day one.

To paraphrase Steven Weinberg in The New York Times, April 20, 1999:
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/02/25/steven-weinberg-what-religion-can-do/

"Bush conservatism is an insult to human intelligence. Without it, you would have more good competent people doing good competent things and fewer inept evil people doing inept evil things. But for good incompetent people to do inept evil things, that takes Bush conservatism."

Fortunately for us, the era of Bush conservatism is breathing its last.

Mordechai Shiblikov [June 18th, 2008 12:54 pm], I usually agree with your comments, but I have to mention one thing here: Obama has promised that his AG will investigate and prosecute any members of past administrations who have violated the Constitution or international treaties. It's not impeachment, which wouldn't pass the Senate this year anyway, but it's much better than nothing.

Words Are Important [June 18th, 2008 1:39 pm], I agree that we should work for Cindy Sheehan and other good progressive candidates for Congress and state offices, but a vote for Nader, McKinney or any other third party presidential candidate is basically a vote for McCain. Sorry, but that's the grim reality this year.

NancyH [June 18th, 2008 1:22 pm], no, you're not crazy, and keep on doing what you've been doing because you never know who might read what you send, or forward it to someone else who will get a different perspective on an issue. I know, because it has happened to me -- a few people I've sent emails to bothered to respond and thank me for giving them a different outlook. (Of course, I've gotten the other kind of email as well, but that's to be expected.) It's a shame that your family has effectively shut down and crawled into a fetal position -- perhaps they will never change, but every day more and more Americans are waking up to the lies, illegalities, manipulations and deadly distortions of the past eight years, and they're waking up angry. As John Dryden said, "Beware the fury of a patient man." For most of us, I think our patience is gone and our fury will be demonstrated next November.

"It's really frightening the extent to which the invasion of Vietnam, arguably the worst terrorist act of modern times, has simply been excised from the historical record. There was massive torture there, and of course, uncountable war crimes. And yet, even most anti-war activists and progressives don't mention it"

Where did the massive torture take place? Which uncontable war crimes? Do you know real instances of these things, dates, places? Where is your information coming from?

How do you think we got into Viet Nam?

^^^^ While I fully agree with RichM's commentary, I fear that Rockerbabe1's perspective typifies a much more prevalent viewpoint and one that is all too readily accomodated by the existing "two-party" facade and its combined USA Incorporated sponsors.

Rockerbabe1 (12:59 pm) wrote, "....After January 21, 2009, Americans can get back to being American again, then the Oops nations will have passed into faded irrelevant memory."

- Note how precisely this remark misses the entire point of the article. Rockerbabe1 thinks that "being American" is "good," and that this is really the natural state of things. She thinks that this natural state has been disturbed only because Bush is president, & that everything will go back to "the nice normal" when Bush leaves office.

In reality, though, the military-industrial complex will still be there, when Bush leaves. The military budget won't change. The US will still be ruled by corporate profit. There still won't be universal health care. The US will still be fighting the "War on Terror." No Bush administration criminals will be brought to justice. There will still be a fantastic level of hatred worldwide for America, based on its vicious & selfish foreign policy. The media will still be under corporate control. And every single thing that Bush did, will become established precedent for future administrations, on January 21, 2009.

We have so much rage about what Bush has done to our country. When will a leader emerge who can help us take back our nation. It's not Obama. It certainly isn't Clinton. Both of them are indebted to the vast money machines that run this country. Nader is an alternative, but are we only shooting ourselves in the foot if we support him? I don't know. I never imagined things could get this bad. I think it might be too late. The fascists have won.

TR is mistaking "afraid" for "lazy." As in, afraid that standing up to and going after the sick and twisted fellow Americans who have no problem openly killing and maiming millions of innocents, "disappearing" and torturing thousands "suspects" indefinitely, blowing the cover of CIA NOC agents, illegally spying on us all and bragging about it, stealing as much of "our" wealth and that of future generations they can get their hands on, and are now claiming that Habeus Corpus is nothing more than the latest "terrorist" WMD, might not be good for one's health.

We're not lazy, Ted - we are just scared shitless that, although we've had some "bad" Feds in the past, this gang actually gets off on destroying lives and appears to be drooling at the prospect of unleashing the hounds on We The People...

Nancy H,
I go exactly through the same thing with my family and friends. It's so discouraging to always swim against the current. But please don't give up. They alienate you now, but when they see this country completely gone to the toilet they'll be so ashamed because they didn't listen to you. So keep fighting, you're doing the right thing!

Don't hold your breath Rockerbabe. Didn't you read in the article that this collective madness has happened before? And the Democratic party has been complicit for the last 7 years.

Tsunami - You beat me to it. There hasn't been a democratic Congress for seven years - and "Oops! it hasn't been the Democratic Congress and its media allies either!

The Democratic controlled Congress and Senate is every bit as culpable as Bush. Their silence and hands off policy is just as culpable as those who allow it. When are you people going to wake up? The euphoria with Obama is misplaced. Obama is not your saviour any more than Bush and Cheney. God help us!

"For seven years, the Bush Administration, the Democratic Congress and its media allies have denied"..............

Oops! There hasn't been a democratic Congress for seven years with this Bush Administration.

Impeachment is off the table because war crimes, past, present and future, are off the table.

Ralph Nader, Green Party or third party for president.

Don't support those republicans and democrats that support war crimes. It has now been 5 years that the detainees have been held, 'for security reasons,' without due process. This is not my sense of justice.

If people continue to vote for republicans and democrats who are violating not just the law, but common decency, then they deserve what they will be getting. And they will be getting is as this country slips into economic chaos being controlled by private security forces who are well trained in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There is no peace without justice, and no justice if it is based on lies. AG

Ralph Nader, Green party for president.
Cindy Sheehan for congress. A good start.

Let go of the illusion of goodness. America is a lie.

I'm dealing with lazies -- my own family who alienate me for sending them information they don't get by watching TV news and reading their daily newspaper. They say they agree, but have a "there's nothing anyone can do" mentality, and say just that, then chastise, criticize and alienate me for standing up and fighting back through my somewhat limited activism, both online, writing to newspapers, signing petitions, writing to senators/representatives, and marching. The never even acknowledge receiving information or talk about it -- they say they're not interested, that it only makes them upset and they don't want to have that in their lives. Am I crazy for feeling angry at them for being "good Americans" who do nothing??

The incompetent nuts without shells who live in the White House and their counterparts in the Congress and the military will soon been replaced by other nuts (hopefully with shells, common sense and a respect for the US Constitution). After January 21, 2009, Americans can get back to being American again, then the Oops nations will have passed into faded irrelevant memory.

"Move forward to the Alien and Sedition Acts of the early Republic, and from there to the suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War. Turn then to the arbitrary political arrests of the First and Second World Wars, the many abuses of the Cold War McCarthy era, and from there the civil liberties climate in our time."

It's really frightening the extent to which the invasion of Vietnam, arguably the worst terrorist act of modern times, has simply been excised from the historical record. There was massive torture there, and of course, uncountable war crimes. And yet, even most anti-war activists and progressives don't mention it when discussing the history of American torture and human rights abuses.

The laziest and most stupid slob of all is GEORGE WANKER BUSH. Eight years of his rule has metasticized this intellectual and moral laziness, this goonish behavior into the very soul of this rapidly declining nation. There is no political chemotherapy that will kill this cancer, or even put it into remission. And Obama, should he be elected, won't be able to stop it even if he wanted to. What have the lazy and cowardly Democrats done about Bush/Cheney in the last nearly two years?