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Oops Nation: A Superpower of Lazy Slobs
Tens of thousands of innocent detainees have passed through Guantánamo, Bagram, Abu Ghraib, Diego Garcia and other U.S. torture facilities. Thousands remain "disappeared," possibly murdered. Some may be on one of the Navy vessels recently revealed to have been repurposed as prison ships. Dozens have been beaten to death or killed by willful medical neglect.
For seven years, the Bush Administration, the Democratic Congress and its media allies have denied "unlawful enemy combatants" (or, as Dick Cheney called them, "the worst of the worst" terrorists) the right to habeas corpus, the centuries-old right of persons arrested by the police to face their accusers and the evidence against them in a court of law.
Thanks to a 5-4 decision by the Supreme Court, America's latest flirtation with fascism is coming to an end. Parts of the infamous Military Commissions Act of 2006 that eliminated habeas corpus have been declared unconstitutional. Prisoners at Guantánamo and possibly other American gulags, will now be allowed to demand their day in court. Since the government doesn't have evidence against them, legal experts say, most if not all of "the worst of the worst" will ultimately walk free. "Liberty and security can be reconciled," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority.
In short: Oops.
In December 2001, Kurnaz was a 19-year-old German Muslim studying in Pakistan. He was pulled off a bus by Pakistani security services, who delivered him to the CIA for a $3,000 bounty. He was flown to Guantánamo concentration camp, where he received what The Village Voice's Nat Hentoff calls "the standard treatment: beatings, sleep deprivation, and special month-long spells of solitary confinement in a sealed cell without ventilation."
He went on hunger strike, and Kurnaz's tormentors apparently worried he might starve to death. After 20 days "they gagged me and shoved a tube up my nose, stopping several times because the tube filled with blood," Kurnaz remembers.
What did this "worst of the worst" do to deserve such treatment? Nothing. But don't take my word for it. Six months into his ordeal, the U.S. military determined, there was "no definite link or evidence of detainee having an association with Al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S."
The U.S. government knew Kurnaz was innocent. Yet they held on to him another three and a half years.
Oops.
It would be comforting if the torture of innocent men sold by self-interested bounty hunters were an aberration. It wasn't. A McClatchy Newspapers analysis confirms the horrifying results of a Seton Hall University study. "Only eight percent of Guantánamo detainees were captured by U.S. forces," reports McClatchy. "86 percent were turned over to the U.S. by Pakistan or by the Northern Alliance," a coalition of Afghan warlords. "The bounty hunters were often the source of allegations."
Right-wingers say security matters can only be entrusted to the military. "The courts," writes Richard Samp of the pro-government Washington Legal Foundation in USA Today, "simply lack the expertise and resources to justify second-guessing military experts on such issues." Maybe. But the military is run by liars.
"The McClatchy investigation found that top Bush Administration officials knew within months of opening the Guantánamo detention center that many prisoners weren't 'the worst of the worst.' From the moment that Guantánamo opened in early 2002, former Secretary of the Army Thomas White said, it was obvious that at least one-third of the population didn't belong there."
At least six died at Gitmo. (The Pentagon characterized a spate of suicides as clever acts of "asymmetrical warfare.")
Oops.
Deranged leaders who carry out horrific acts of mass murder and oppression with the consent of the people are hardly new to American history, reminds Allen Weinstein, Archivist of the United States. "Begin with the Salem witchcraft trials of the 1690s," he told a commencement ceremony at Southern Methodist University. "Move forward to the Alien and Sedition Acts of the early Republic, and from there to the suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War. Turn then to the arbitrary political arrests of the First and Second World Wars, the many abuses of the Cold War McCarthy era, and from there the civil liberties climate in our time."
So many oopsies! But those are temporary excesses, Weinstein reassures. "Self-corrective forces at work in American society"--lefties, liberals, a single swing vote on the U.S. Supreme Court--always pull us back before we careen off the brink. Disaster is avoided.
Which would be fine if it weren't for the problem that: (1) one of these days, Justice Kennedy won't be around to restore the rule of law. The other problem being (2): a lot of "witches" get drowned during our periodic episodes of madness.
No one was ever held accountable for blacklisting actors or massacring Native Americans. Such tacit endorsement of villainy sets the stage for the next outrage committed during a future "temporary madness" driven by national security worries. Apologies are rare. Penance is scarce and stingy. The government stole the homes and businesses of Japanese-Americans and shipped them to concentration camps during World War II; decades passed before Congress cut them checks for a measly $10,000.
We think we Americans are good people who do bad things when we're not on top of our game. "Self-corrective forces," we pat ourselves on our collective backsides, always kick in before we go too far.
But that's not really how it is.
Some Americans are good. Other Americans are bad. And the good ones are often lazy, willing to let the bad ones get their way.
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79 Comments so far
Show AllThe laziest and most stupid slob of all is GEORGE WANKER BUSH. Eight years of his rule has metasticized this intellectual and moral laziness, this goonish behavior into the very soul of this rapidly declining nation. There is no political chemotherapy that will kill this cancer, or even put it into remission. And Obama, should he be elected, won't be able to stop it even if he wanted to. What have the lazy and cowardly Democrats done about Bush/Cheney in the last nearly two years?
"Move forward to the Alien and Sedition Acts of the early Republic, and from there to the suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War. Turn then to the arbitrary political arrests of the First and Second World Wars, the many abuses of the Cold War McCarthy era, and from there the civil liberties climate in our time."
It's really frightening the extent to which the invasion of Vietnam, arguably the worst terrorist act of modern times, has simply been excised from the historical record. There was massive torture there, and of course, uncountable war crimes. And yet, even most anti-war activists and progressives don't mention it when discussing the history of American torture and human rights abuses.
The incompetent nuts without shells who live in the White House and their counterparts in the Congress and the military will soon been replaced by other nuts (hopefully with shells, common sense and a respect for the US Constitution). After January 21, 2009, Americans can get back to being American again, then the Oops nations will have passed into faded irrelevant memory.
I'm dealing with lazies -- my own family who alienate me for sending them information they don't get by watching TV news and reading their daily newspaper. They say they agree, but have a "there's nothing anyone can do" mentality, and say just that, then chastise, criticize and alienate me for standing up and fighting back through my somewhat limited activism, both online, writing to newspapers, signing petitions, writing to senators/representatives, and marching. The never even acknowledge receiving information or talk about it -- they say they're not interested, that it only makes them upset and they don't want to have that in their lives. Am I crazy for feeling angry at them for being "good Americans" who do nothing??
Let go of the illusion of goodness. America is a lie.
Impeachment is off the table because war crimes, past, present and future, are off the table.
Ralph Nader, Green Party or third party for president.
Don't support those republicans and democrats that support war crimes. It has now been 5 years that the detainees have been held, 'for security reasons,' without due process. This is not my sense of justice.
If people continue to vote for republicans and democrats who are violating not just the law, but common decency, then they deserve what they will be getting. And they will be getting is as this country slips into economic chaos being controlled by private security forces who are well trained in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is no peace without justice, and no justice if it is based on lies. AG
Ralph Nader, Green party for president.
Cindy Sheehan for congress. A good start.
"For seven years, the Bush Administration, the Democratic Congress and its media allies have denied"..............
Oops! There hasn't been a democratic Congress for seven years with this Bush Administration.
The Democratic controlled Congress and Senate is every bit as culpable as Bush. Their silence and hands off policy is just as culpable as those who allow it. When are you people going to wake up? The euphoria with Obama is misplaced. Obama is not your saviour any more than Bush and Cheney. God help us!
Tsunami - You beat me to it. There hasn't been a democratic Congress for seven years - and "Oops! it hasn't been the Democratic Congress and its media allies either!
Don't hold your breath Rockerbabe. Didn't you read in the article that this collective madness has happened before? And the Democratic party has been complicit for the last 7 years.
Nancy H,
I go exactly through the same thing with my family and friends. It's so discouraging to always swim against the current. But please don't give up. They alienate you now, but when they see this country completely gone to the toilet they'll be so ashamed because they didn't listen to you. So keep fighting, you're doing the right thing!
TR is mistaking "afraid" for "lazy." As in, afraid that standing up to and going after the sick and twisted fellow Americans who have no problem openly killing and maiming millions of innocents, "disappearing" and torturing thousands "suspects" indefinitely, blowing the cover of CIA NOC agents, illegally spying on us all and bragging about it, stealing as much of "our" wealth and that of future generations they can get their hands on, and are now claiming that Habeus Corpus is nothing more than the latest "terrorist" WMD, might not be good for one's health.
We're not lazy, Ted - we are just scared shitless that, although we've had some "bad" Feds in the past, this gang actually gets off on destroying lives and appears to be drooling at the prospect of unleashing the hounds on We The People...
We have so much rage about what Bush has done to our country. When will a leader emerge who can help us take back our nation. It's not Obama. It certainly isn't Clinton. Both of them are indebted to the vast money machines that run this country. Nader is an alternative, but are we only shooting ourselves in the foot if we support him? I don't know. I never imagined things could get this bad. I think it might be too late. The fascists have won.
^^^^ While I fully agree with RichM's commentary, I fear that Rockerbabe1's perspective typifies a much more prevalent viewpoint and one that is all too readily accomodated by the existing "two-party" facade and its combined USA Incorporated sponsors.
"It's really frightening the extent to which the invasion of Vietnam, arguably the worst terrorist act of modern times, has simply been excised from the historical record. There was massive torture there, and of course, uncountable war crimes. And yet, even most anti-war activists and progressives don't mention it"
Where did the massive torture take place? Which uncontable war crimes? Do you know real instances of these things, dates, places? Where is your information coming from?
How do you think we got into Viet Nam?
To paraphrase Steven Weinberg in The New York Times, April 20, 1999:
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/02/25/steven-weinberg-what-religion-can-do/
"Bush conservatism is an insult to human intelligence. Without it, you would have more good competent people doing good competent things and fewer inept evil people doing inept evil things. But for good incompetent people to do inept evil things, that takes Bush conservatism."
Fortunately for us, the era of Bush conservatism is breathing its last.
Mordechai Shiblikov [June 18th, 2008 12:54 pm], I usually agree with your comments, but I have to mention one thing here: Obama has promised that his AG will investigate and prosecute any members of past administrations who have violated the Constitution or international treaties. It's not impeachment, which wouldn't pass the Senate this year anyway, but it's much better than nothing.
Words Are Important [June 18th, 2008 1:39 pm], I agree that we should work for Cindy Sheehan and other good progressive candidates for Congress and state offices, but a vote for Nader, McKinney or any other third party presidential candidate is basically a vote for McCain. Sorry, but that's the grim reality this year.
NancyH [June 18th, 2008 1:22 pm], no, you're not crazy, and keep on doing what you've been doing because you never know who might read what you send, or forward it to someone else who will get a different perspective on an issue. I know, because it has happened to me -- a few people I've sent emails to bothered to respond and thank me for giving them a different outlook. (Of course, I've gotten the other kind of email as well, but that's to be expected.) It's a shame that your family has effectively shut down and crawled into a fetal position -- perhaps they will never change, but every day more and more Americans are waking up to the lies, illegalities, manipulations and deadly distortions of the past eight years, and they're waking up angry. As John Dryden said, "Beware the fury of a patient man." For most of us, I think our patience is gone and our fury will be demonstrated next November.
Question by Mordechai: "What have the lazy and cowardly Democrats done about Bush/Cheney in the last nearly two years?"
Answer: They have joined ranks with them and protected them. Remember...impeachment is OFF the table and has been since day one.
"Thanks to a 5-4 decision by the Supreme Court, America's latest flirtation with fascism is coming to an end." Were this true, I would be delighted, but it seems overly optimistic. These folk will give lip service to obeying the court decision, but they know that Congress will do nothing to enforce it. The days in which the Supreme Court could count on its decisions having meaning is past. These folk will accept Supreme Court decisions only when they are convenient. The law has meaning only when it is used to keep the powerful in power. Otherwise, the law is a scam.
Three million Vietnamese people died as a result of the U.S. war machine in their country. Viet Nam never attacked the United States. We fought a war of aggression because capitalism was afraid that socialism would prove better able to meet people's needs.
The global war on socialism was long dirty and deadly.
C.I.A. manuals detailing torture methods have leaked out over the years.
Anyone who doubts that the U.S. has committed war crimes is just ignorant.
The U.S. is now a nation of "Good Germans." Absolutely everything that has been going on in the U.S. over the last 8 years is exactly the same as what happened in Germany that gave rise to Hitler's power and atrocities. EVERYTHING. Ref: "The 14 Characteristics of Fascism" - look it up.
Americans and their 'representatives' are being cowardly, compliant "Good Americans" -- following the party line, either too scared to revolt, or filling their pockets with blood money...all the while allowing the mass murder of innocents and the enrichment of the wealthy elite, even at their own expense and that of their children! Not to mention no justice for this violated democracy or the ONE MILLION SLAUGHTERED IRAQI MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
Yes, like I was - a single parent, believing that I was keeping abreast of what's going on if I could watch the 10pm news before collapsing into fitful sleep each night - most Americans are fighting for their and their family's economic and physical lives, or struggling to "be, do and buy" what corporate propaganda says they should. (Bread and Circuses) They don't have a clue about what's really going on and don't understand they are being kept in the dark by the corporate media that profits from MASS MURDER IN IRAQ, who censor real news and truth.
But now the truth is out there. Dennis Kucinich has courageously challenged even those Democrats complicit in the Bush Administration's war crimes: Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer and others, including John Conyers, who wrote the book on Bush's and the Republicans' crimes, "Constitution in Crisis," but has now GONE OVER TO THE DARK SIDE.
How can Pelosi allow impeachment and prosecution of Bush and Cheney for high crimes and war crimes, when she, herself, is guilty of approving and encouraging torture and illegal surveillance? She would then have to be impeached, herself, as she ascends to the presidency, or her guilt would undermine the impeachment of Bush and Cheney, who she collaborated with!
It's a real Catch-22, folks. The only hope is that there is no statute of limitations on MURDER OR TREASON.
Please contribute to Cindy Sheehan's campaign to unseat Pelosi in her district in San Francisco -- and good riddance! And help all of those new candidates who are running on impeachment. THEY are the ones who, as they take office next January, will assure this nation that justice will be done.
What we know is terrible. What is being kept secret from us must be even more terrible. Hiding prisoners from the Red Cross: we know. "Secret" detension centers: we also know. Given these tendencies from the people who operate this system it is easy to assume that they are operating secretly in areas that have not yet been revealed. Sadly, there is no mechanism to probe for revalation of these activities.
The only hope for our local Pol Pots and Hitlers in Washington, D.C. is the International Criminal Court because they can be pardoned for crimes and not be subjected to prosecution in this country. But that doesn't fly internationally. Furthermore, the only difference between our "wonderful", American leaders and Pol Pot, Stalin and yes, Hitler are the numbers of the dead and persecuted.
Please see Ralph Nader's interview on Democracy Now today. Please vote for Ralph Nader. He really is the only hope we have at this point.
heavyrunner June 18th, 2008 5:16 pm
So you are one of those "everyone knows that" types that has no specific knowledge. No first hand stories. But know all about it.
You can always tell when someone has no knowledge or is fairly "ignorant" when they resort to insults with no answers when someone asks a question.
the only difference between our "wonderful", American leaders and Pol Pot, Stalin and yes, Hitler are the numbers of the dead and persecuted.
You must be joking.
Apologists (like Tom More) for murderous mass genocide regimes are often so soft-skinned and sensitive to the fainetst slight, that it seems so cruel to persist and even mention the camps, gulags, toture chambers, and the devastated landscapes left behind by terrorist regimes.
And heavyrunner wasn't joking. He just simply did not get his figures right. Yes, Stalin is hard to compete with in sheer numbers, but when you add up the "demographic shortfalls" for countries in which the US has fought wars since WWII, we surely give Hitler a good run, and leave poor old Pol Pot eating our dust.
I am furious with Nancy Pelosi about the no impeachment matter, however, I think that those of you who have written that she supports and encourages torture need to give some solid sources. Otherwise you are spreading unsubstantiated rumor, much like the Republicans.
The responsibility for torture rests on the heads of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, John Koos, Alberto Gonzoles, Donnald Rumsfelt, Condi Rice, and the neocons who love them. (Read all about it in the right wing St. Paul Pioneer Press, of all unlikely places. June16-18)
Ralph Nader is the only hope we have? Then I suggest suicide. Ralph Nader (a personal hero of mine for decades) has as much chance of being president as I do. And even if everyone who thought as we do voted for him, it would accomplish only one thing: putting McCain in the White House.
Right. I know I'm going to be slammed for this. But please reacquaint yourselves with reality. Nader, McKinney or whoever is not going to be the president. It will be McCain or Obama. That's your choice. Don't like it? I'm sorry.
If you want to make a useless, anonymous protest vote, do so. And then please shut the fuck up for the next four years if McCain becomes president.
Is the Democratic party worth getting excited about? Hell no. Would Nader make an excellent president? Hell yes. Will this ever happen? Really? You think it's possible? Do you really?
Is Obama the Messiah? No, not by lightyears. But if you can't see that he is hugely preferrable over McCain, if you can see absolutely no differences, think life will be indentical under either one, think the world sees no distinction, then you are about as informed as the average Fox viewer who thinks McCain is a maverick.
Okay, I'm ready to be told how stupid I am. How I'm a sell-out. Fine. But goddamn it, I'm determined to live in the real world, not some faith-based fantasy land where Nader gets to be president and McKinney Secretary of State.
I get the feeling that a lot of posters here must still be living in their parents' basement. Please grow up.
opeluboy June 18th, 2008 6:22 pm: Okay, I'm ready to be told how stupid I am.
Good.
Better yet: a system where votes are cast according to the voters beliefs and not some manipulative calculation is worth fighting for.
ryski - Indeed it is. Fight for it. Meanwhile, we have two wars going on, a bankrupt country, environmental collapse, and more problems than I need to list here. We have people trying to start another war, possibly a nuclear one. Yes, go play Build a Real Democracy. Let's hope our country survives long enough to see it happen.
Even better. Initiate the draft. That will get some of the faux revolutionaries who post here pissing in their pants at the thought that it may actually cost them something.
"...more good competent people doing good competent things and fewer inept evil people doing inept evil things".
Steven Weinberg, the Nobel prize winning physicist, who said that isn't opposed to doing evil things in principle, especially when it comes to "primitive" people.
opeluboy sez: "If you want to make a useless, anonymous protest vote, do so. And then please shut the fuck up for the next four years if McCain becomes president."
Actually, when I want to make a useless vote, I punch it into a Diebold or ES&S machine.
p.s. — Regarding wasted votes ... is the corporatocracy still using the electoral college? Maybe you could look that up for us.
Goebbels - Yes, yes, yes, things suck. Yes, life is unfair. Yes, Bush stole the last 2 elections. Yes, our whole system needs rewiring. Yes, we have too few choices. Yes, we need a viable 3rd party.
Putting McCain in office should take care of that for you.
"I would rather vote for what I want and not get it, then vote for what I don't want and get it." Eugene Debs
This is the question, who is throwing away their vote? The voters for Obama who say that they care about ending the war and justice? Or voting for Ralph Nader (or third party candidates who actually represent values that address those concerns?
It' like watching Charlie Brown trying to kick the football again and again, and each time the democratic party (played by Lucy) snatches that ball away at the last second. And the voters will continue to get betrayed by the democratic party.
The fact that impeachment and war crimes are off the table does make the democratic party complicit in those crimes committed by Bush and Co. Just like if a cop who is the getaway car for a bank robber because he says the prosecution of bank robbers is off the table.
People who say that there are only two choices are being misleading. I don't deny that Nader has little chance of winning, but that is because the media and political process are corrupted, and people, like many on this site, would settle for voting for a candidate who can 'win' rather than one who will represent their values.
The democratic and republican party machine will not allow any candidate to win who will challenge the corporate agenda. That is why you have to step outside to third parties before anything has even a chance of changing.
opeluboy, thank you! Most of us here on CD would love to see Nader/McKinney/Kucinich, etc. be president. But the problem is it's not going to happen. Yes it's wrong, yes the system is broken, but we're stuck with it at this time. It's easy to be an idealist. You can sit there an criticize Obama, then when he (as president) throws a bone to the MIC, you can say "Told you so." It's far more difficult to be a pragmatist, and take the heat when things don't come off completely PC. Nader can say anything he wants, beacuse he'll never win. Obama gets "caught" not wearing a flag pin and his ratings go down 10%. Is it wrong? Yes. Are people stupid? Yes! But it's all we've got right now folks.
If you want to hear or read Ralph Nader's comments from his appearance on Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/18/ralph_nader_on_barack_obama_it
Quote - So, to sum it up, really, our campaign is to subordinate corporate power to the sovereignty of the people. Why is that a radical notion? Doesn't the Constitution start with "We the people"? Ralph Nader
Go to the above website where he talks about Obama.
enough said...
Words are Important - Citing Debs is hardly an argument. Why not Larouche?
Yes, whether you like it or not, there are only two choices. You will have a President McCain or a President Obama. Certainly you do not dispute this fact. Your posts show no signs of dementia.
As I have said, if you have read my posts on this subject, I have tremendous respect for Nader, and maybe even more for McKinney. I would prefer either to Obama.
But, hello, reality. Neither will be president. That is not me being defeatist or suggesting that a 3rd party is not a good thing. It's just being realistic. If Nader or McKinney had even the slightest chance of winning, they would get my vote. I'd risk that. But I'm not going to piss my vote away in a protest that will impress no one, accomplish nothing and put someone even worse than Bush in office. Do you really think the corrupt Democrats are going to see a handful of votes going to Nader and all of a sudden get religion? They've been through this before!
We all want change. I would settle for armed rebellion right now, but it isn't going to happen. In the meantime, I'd like to keep things from getting even worse. And I mean worse in biblical proportions.
Our country can't take it. Neither can the rest of the world.
I'm not going to help Armageddon along just to flip off the Democrats.
Mahalo, bidelo!
opeluboy is absolutely correct. After posting the same explaination at various times during the primaries I've come to the conclusion that many people live in a world where mathematical probability does not exist. So let me try this one question. How many new Supreme Court justices can John McCain possibly have a chance to nominate in 4 years?
Nancy
When people are in denial it's often because the truth is terrifying and they see no alternatives. When that's the case, piling on more scary news can be less productive than educating them about positive alternatives and actions.
knowthegreedyslime - (great handle), another excellent point. We saw just last week that something as basic to Western civilization as habeus corpus survived (we hope) by a 5/4 vote. The reasoning of the dissenting judges, and the Republicans who put them there, should be enough to convince even the most benighted that this is not the time to fuck around.
The next president will likely appoint three new Supremes — for life. Someone tell me Obama would appoint the same sort as McCain.
When many thousands of people come together and march for a demand like Bring the Troops Home Now or to support a labor struggle, they have real power. History is brimming with examples of where mass pressure has forced reactionary politicians to change policy. Republican President Nixon forced to withdraw from Vietnam for example.
To put all the energy into electing a hopefully lesser evil politician (Obama for example) ignores other proven methods to bring change. And it makes people lower their expectations. Helping ordinary people discover the power of their own collective action is often a revolutionary thing.
Opelubuy: "Ralph Nader is the only hope we have? Then I suggest suicide. Ralph Nader (a personal hero of mine for decades) has as much chance of being president as I do. And even if everyone who thought as we do voted for him, it would accomplish only one thing: putting McCain in the White House.
Right. I know I'm going to be slammed for this. But please reacquaint yourselves with reality. Nader, McKinney or whoever is not going to be the president. It will be McCain or Obama. That's your choice. Don't like it? I'm sorry."
Opelubou, rational pragmatism has no place in CD. CD is very very anti-obama and that's it. No other thought is allowed. Not sure some of the posters here realize that yet.
Ted you know i love ya,and most of this piece is very good. But this "oops" tuff won't do. As you know perfectly well, the establishment and rapid growth of the Gulag, and all the torture- all this was done on purpose, and deliberately planned.
there is nothing "oops" about it. And it's not about being lazy slobs either. would that it were. These guys are wicked mean and nasty, and far to energetic in their torturing of innocents.
Nancy and opal - I experience the same thing, and I believe opal is giving some good advice.
It is indeed frustrating. I know people who are of course just ignorant Republican war fodder, and nothing makes a dent in them. But I also know well-meaning, moral, even one could say "spiritual" people who just don't want to upset their pleasant fantasy of what they believe life to be. They have bumper stickers that say as much.
Unfortunately for them, they will suffer just like the rest of us, whether they put any "negative energy" into the situation or not. Still got to put gas in a Prius, jaboticaba isn't any cheaper, Ziggy Marley and Alpha Blondy still charge when they come to Big Island and pakalolo is about $125 a quarter. Worst of all, their children will still be eligible to fight in foreign wars, no matter how cosmic their upbringing.
Complacency will kill us yet.
Kman2 - I believe that is a growing phenomenon here, although I hardly felt so outgunned a few months ago. I think they'll come around. Most of the posters, except for the trolls who were impersonating Clinton supporters, are intelligent, well-meaning people. I hope that as the campaign begins, and they are allowed to see the clear differences between a McCain administration and an Obama one, they will opt to give Obama a chance.
The alternative is too awful.
Clifford - I was in those marches, and have a lasting bump on the back of my skull to prove it. I was harassed almost daily by the cops for not carrying my draft card. I got beaten up by rednecks for protesting and implicated in a traffic accident by a redneck cop that prevented me from driving for several years, all because I was a hippie and war protester.
Yes, we ended the Vietnam war, but not without a lot of media help. We also had a lot more casualties. And a draft.
Before the Iraq war, the world witnessed the largest anti-war demonstrations in the history of the planet. They went largely unnoticed. The war was launched. Millions are dead.
Yes, we must work together and keep the pressure on. But do you suppose it would be easier to do this during a McCain administration or an Obama administration?
opeluboy June 18th, 2008 10:21 pm -- 'Yes, we must work together and keep the pressure on.'
I certainly don't doubt your own sincerity, but do you really think that is any more likely to happen and to be effective after electing a Democratic president than it has been after electing a Democratic majority in the House? And, if so, how do you persuade people like Rockerbabe1 (the vast majority IMO) to participate when they believe that January 21, 2009 will make it all pass 'into faded irrelevant memory'.
I apologise in advance for my cynicism, but I just don't see it happening. What the 'no choice' crowd really seem to be saying is that it's impossible to elect anyone as President of the United States of America who truly reflects and will honestly represent progressive values. If that is so, how would you expect to gain popular support for your causes after electing someone else? And, perhaps even more basic, would a progessive agenda actually merit popular support if it can't win a sufficient number of votes in an election?
To be perfectly blunt, if the majority of USans are content to vote for whatever the "two-party" presidential candidates represent, perhaps they'd better prepare themselves to accept the results of their "democratic" validation of that system.
Arvy - Yes, or I wouldn't have written it.
I am not so naive as to expect transformation of our country over night, but I can tell you that in my lifetime I have witnessed some change that people at the time would have called impossible. Most happened during Democratic administrations.
I'm 55. I have a chance to vote for a black man for president. I had the choice to opt for a woman as well. That is not meaningless. I grew up during segregation.
Obama is not my dream candidate, but he has one thing right: change comes from the bottom up. He has put a movement together, and done it with people like you and me. He will be a power broker in DC for some time. But that base will rightly expect something for their efforts.
I am all for holding his feet to the fire when he's elected. It will be required.
A majority of Americans have no problem with gay marriage, desire single-payer healthcare, are against the Iraq war, want alternative energy choices pursued, believe in a woman's right to choose, etc. We have come a long way, if you look backwards.
I remain convinced that we can accomplish more with a Democratic Congress and president than without. Easily, no, but possible.
It's really no question at all for me.