kc June 17th, 2008 11:23 pm
IMPEACHMENT YES BUT OF WHO ???????
BUSH AND CHENEY-FINE-BUT HOW CAN WE THEN BE LEFT WITH PALOSI,AND THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP INCLUDING OBAMONATION AND CLINTON WHO HAVE BEEN WILLING COLLABORATERS !!!!!

Impeach Bush/Cheney: because, as is life, it's a matter of process, and what develops from the process. In this case hopefully a more engaged public that will change our collective behavior of lying about WMD while unleashing 240,000 pounds of oxidized uranium into the environment, and lying about goodwill while spawning the atrocities of el Moetz (sp?) - especially when there is so much more, known and unknown, to live for...

Interim President - John Warner.
Interim Vice President - Chuck Hegel.

God you people are so dumb it makes me sick!!
How the hell can you impeach a dictator? Who can impeach a dictator? Nobody that's who!! Your very own president (Pre- Simulation-Denture) announced he was a dictator on April 1 2002, weren't you listening? Probably not!!
Between 17 Sept 1999, and December 31 1999 America finally came out of International Bankruptcy and became a sovereign nation once again, WITHOUT A PRESIDENT. When this began, Bill Clinton said "I will be the last President of the US". The next election was a scam because the decision had already been made before the farcical court case episode, which means George Bush is either King or dictator....BOTH of which CANNOT be impeached!!
When you finally wake up (which I doubt), you will also find out that your Constitution has been suspended until such times as Bush, or the newly elected dictator sees fit to end the martial law, which was instigated via 9/11 and Katrina.

Thank you Brattleboro Reformer.

Count the editors at the Brattleboro Reformer as another bunch who cannot see the forest for the trees. Knocking the Democrats for not carrying on an election-year losers' drama that CAN NOT produce a conviction in a 50-50 Senate is about as goofy as proudly wasting votes on Ralph Nader (again.)

Much yelling and grandstanding. No progress.

Win your election. Capture your agenda. Change the country. Defend the Constitution by having a government in power that is actually inclined to do so, instead of merely PRETENDING to be progressive.

To add onto what the editorialist says is important about impeachment: it is about legal precedent. Not to act on Bush's "high crimes and misdemeanors" is to allow them to be standard operating procedure for the next president in office. Not to impeach gives the succeeding president the right to nullify legislation using signing statements, keep information from Congress,disobey constitutional law and become, de facto, an absolute dictator responsible to no one.

Impeachment is not just about dealing with a problem president, it is about saving and restoring the Constitution to the people.

Alanlak is right. Failure to begin impeachment proceedings would set the precedent that presidents and high government officials can violate basic principles of justice, institute illegal wars, violate rights, as they wish without penalty. This gives control of the government over to the executive and abandons democracy. We should at least begin impeachment proceedings to show that the administration's actions are unacceptable to the people: our government should be of, by, and for the PEOPLE, not the few in leadership positions and the corporations behind them.

This should not be left to the "off the table" politicians but should go to the federal courts. Vincent Bugliosi has argued in his new book 'The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder', that Bush et al should be tried for murder, prosecutions which can begin once he has left office. But a grand jury can begin hearing testimony now. This route avoids political issues and gets to the moral and legal culpability of the administration. Let's do it!

At this point, we should be thinking ahead to 2009, and the repeal of the war crimes amnesty provision in the Military Commissions Act. Just because Bush and Cheney are out of office is no reason to neglect prosecuting them for torture.

I thought DD had discovered a new party actually inclined to defend the constitution!

Capital crimes and treason? If Congress won't impeach then we need to send all three branches of these homocidal looting liars off to the ICC for disposal and start anew.

Allowing bush and cheney to leave office without sanction will set a precident. That precident would mean that any president can act as bush has acted. Any president can break any and almost every law to do as he/she pleases. Do you really want that to happen DD? Arresting them after they've spent their illegally gotten gains is not a good idea. They're in the act of breaking many laws, arrest them.

I swear, I must be living in another dimension.

I just listened to the House conveneing on C-span and would you believe some of the first items on the agenda were, a Post Office named for some schmuck in the boonies, another for golfer Chichi Rodriquez. And the empeachment process would be a distraction to House business?

Why not just legalize all crime? Oh, wait, that's called being rich and powerful. Nevermind, I must have been delusional when I thought I lived in a free country under the rule of law.

As is amply demonstrated by our regular partisan commenters, politics as a means to govern has been fatally transformed into an end in itself. This transformation is the fulcrum upon which our government tilted away from an aspiring constitutional democratic republic into the present decadent authoritarian empire.

Once political calculus becomes the be-all and end-all of civic life, the principles upon which our government was established, and which were intended to... well, GOVERN the operation of government become secondary-- and a distant second at that. Politics has overwhelmed principle, and is indeed generally regarded by the commentariat as "trumps".

Thus, as I have commented ad nauseam, our amoral and unprincipled political elite never considered impeachment on its MERITS, which is to say on PRINCIPLE. Instead, they treated impeachment exactly as the criminal Executive Branch treat the Geneva Convention or habeas corpus-- as "quaint" but essentially impractical obsolescences.

Naturally, impeachment opponents don't see it that way, and in any case know better than to SAY it that way. Instead, they offer one "strategic" or process-based excuse after another why impeachment was always a no-go, and at this point is so "over" that it's foolish to keep dwelling upon it.

To their credit, some impeachment opponents obviously realize that their position is fundamentally flawed, lame, and untenable. So they don't abandon entirely the notion that there ought to be some legal accountability-- instead, in accordance with their erroneous belief that "common sense" political contingencies are all that matter, they advocate addressing the risky, messy, and unpredictable issues of social justice AFTER it's politically "safe" and "reasonable" to do so. Or offer alternatives to impose accountability short of impeachment, which in their minds is virtually taboo.

Of course, assuming Obama is elected, and in spite of his expressed intentions to retroactively investigate the massive illicit and illegal conduct of the present maladministration, the "smart" political advice will be for Obama to ease off in the name of promoting that post-partisan agenda. Then he'll be advised to keep backing off until the crucial mid-term elections are held. Then he'll be advised that hell, he may as well keep on using reverse gear, at least until his second term's in the bag. But THEN the gloves come off-- yeah, right.

Incidentally, Obama's own demurrals regarding impeachment are less than encouraging; he hemmed and hawed, in effect, that bad policies and bad judgement aren't really impeachable offenses-- similar to those who argue that impeachment is so profound and weighty a matter that it really should never actually be USED at all.

I applaud Dennis Kucinich and others who call for Impeachment, BUT I do not completely agree. Impeachment trivializes the war crimes. It has been estimated that possibly 3 million Iraqis have been slaughtered by the US since 1991 - many of them during the Bush Administration, some during the Clinton Administration. Because Clinton is complicit, some democrats would not vote for Impeachment.

The crimes are so egregious that they should be Tried in a Court, which hopefully would be less political than the Congress.

There is a growing movement for Indictment for the War Crimes. Ramsey Clark, Vincent Bugliosi, and others are working toward War Crimes Trials. Vincent Bugliosi achieved convictions in all but one of the murder cases he Tried. The case against Bush INC. is an easy win. The whole world is watching and waiting.

One could argue that Kucinich has met Conyers objective with his introduction of articles.

Conyers was looking in 2005 to prove Congress was paying attention. Kucinich provides that cover.

Same goes for Pelosi. By saying, "impeachment is off the table" she can say that she contemplated it -- that she did not sit idly by.

In essence, CYA accomplished. In conscience maybe if not in reality.

In 1868 President Johnson was impeached in 3 days. Of course, there are way more Democrats around now so 6 months, even a year, is not enough time.

Every impeachment has led to the opposing party winning the White House.
Today's Democratic Party does not want to continue that unbroken streak of success. Today's Democratic Paty-led Congress (warning! oxymoron alert) has a lower approval rating than President Bush.

If the approval rating for Congress sinks any lower it will go negative, mathematically proving that more people think Congress sucks then there are alive.

It's time to sweep out the House. Don't re-elect yet again.

After reading the comments by Cindy Sheehan on various blogs out here, I see no hope of impeachment ever being on the table. Not even Obama will pursue it.

I used to have faith in John Conyers, and thought he was on on the American's people's side. But after hearing he only answers the phone to 'important' people and not ordinary citizens..and he doesn't have to do the people's bidding who elected him, I see no hope.

Fascism, a Dictator Government is taking grips on the US. It is already too late to write all the wrongs that have happened to our constitution in the past three presidencies.

At least Cindy was honest. Hope be dashed!

Cindy doesn't realize that some of us are masochists and don't mind "bleeding fingers" in the faint hope that real change might ensue.

I thought republicans stood up for the rule of law? Why aren't they now? This was their whitehouse... so my republican neighbors, what are you going to do to fix it? Criminally complicite... every repub or dem who stands silent.

One of the biggest reasons to investigate and impeach "ALL" who were involved with the misleading, is the prosecuted/guilty can no longer work in government. If no investigation/impeachment proceedings takes place, even after the Bush/Cheney leave office, those involved will come back to haunt our United States of America again and again.

"r jackowski June 17th, 2008 2:23 pm

I applaud Dennis Kucinich and others who call for Impeachment, BUT I do not completely agree. Impeachment trivializes the war crimes. It has been estimated that possibly 3 million Iraqis have been slaughtered by the US since 1991 - many of them during the Bush Administration, some during the Clinton Administration. Because Clinton is complicit, some democrats would not vote for Impeachment.

The crimes are so egregious that they should be Tried in a Court, which hopefully would be less political than the Congress."

Is there some reason These People can't be impeached and then tried for war crimes? kizzy

Impeachment is off the table because it is not in corporate America's interest to hang our their dirty laundry.

Impeachment should continue to be pursued even if prospects are slim to none. In whatever small way, it at least keeps a public finger pointed at administration lawbreakers.

Meanwhile, someone in the House should consider sponsoring a resolution of censure against Bush and Cheney. This would get the lawbreaking details publicly aired in a House committee right away, and it might even generate increased heat for impeachment.

As someone who 1-year ago or thereabouts was screaming for months: IMPEACHMENT, IMPEACHMENT, IMPEACHMENT.......I've come to conclude/learn the following:

1. It ain't going to happen because the Dems are a disgraceful and shameful sham; and
2. Because it ain't going to happen, Washington, D.C. is not worth diddly (what good have the feds done for any of us peasants lately????).

The sooner D.C. is diminished (perhaps all the way to nothingness) the better as far as I'm concerned. The sooner the better for the People.

Remember "The People" --- supposedly the ones for whom this country is "of, by and for", but we should know by now it has NEVER been this way. It is all an illusion, but the curtain is coming down. Or at least, the curtain has come down for me. What about you?

"It is never too late to enforce the Constitution. It is never too late to uphold the rule of law. It is never too late to awaken the Congress to its sworn duties under the Constitution. But it will soon be too late to avoid the searing verdict of history when on January 21, 2009, George W. Bush escapes the justice that was never pursued by those in Congress so solely authorized to hold the President accountable." –Ralph Nader

"It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it." —E.V. Debs

Sometimes something should be done simply because it should be done. The Constitution requires it, and the Battleboro Reformer editorial makes an airtight case for doing it.

When Amy Goodman asked Kucinich if there was enough time, he responded that Bush/Cheney had enough time to attack Iran.

Impeachment might help that war not happen. In other words it could save our lives, our country, our economy and more.

Bravo, r. Jackowski! I defy anyone here to contradict his statement:

IMPEACHMENT TRIVIALIZES THE WAR CRIMES!!!

All a successful impeachment can do is remove the person from government. It's a political procedure, not a criminal one.

I'm not voting, let the chips fall where they will.

Indict! Obama, if you pardon these scum, you will be losing best opportunity to set things right by showing what happens to mass murderers, liars and thieves.

This is my letter to my rep in congress over this article:

To Rep. John Salazar
US House of Representatives

Dear Mr. Salazar,

I have written you several times about the Iraq War the the need for Congress to assert its role as the only ones who have
authority to go to war. I always get the same form letter back from your office that says basically, "we have to support the troops,"
blah, blah, blah.

I would like to know when we start supporting the troops by bringing them home. You acknowlege your own military service
to the country. What did that service stand for if it didn't stand for protecting the freedom and security of the country and the
law under the constitution. This is the same constitution of which you were sworn before taking office. Yet the constitution is
little more than "a damn piece of paper" as quoted from our president Bush.

I could go on but I won't. I've written enough that you know what I'm talking about without having to do too much thinking
about it. Our constitution and bill of rights are being overthrown while you pontificate and grope for political correctness.
I would ask that you search your soul if you can still find it and ask whether your complicity in crimes against the constitution
and the country might not come back and haunt you at least, and at most, put you in front of a tribunal trying you for complicity
in war crimes.

President Bush's war against Iraq, his war "on terror" is a war against humanity. Terror begets terror. Humanity is paying the
price for mr. Bush's pride and vanity and the US congress is supporting it. It is estimated that at least one million Iraqi citizens
have died while four million have been displaced from their homes. The cost to our country will be 3 trillion when all costs are
accounted for. Our troops whom you politically say you have to support, are committing suicide at an unprecedented rate.
They are coming home with unprecedented mental problems. Our country portrays them as heros, but when their service is over, they're abandoned.

I have little hope that the message I'm sending in this letter will even get to you. One of your staffers will read until they know
which form letter to send and that will be the end of it. Only it won't. Your complicity and your silence about this matter is not
going to go away no matter how politically correct you are. Your dishonor and disservice to the country will not disappear from
history regardless of your political correctness.

In all humbleness, I ask you to listen to your heart, while tuning out your political brain, and stop voting to fund the war and
occupation in Iraq. Allocate money only to bringing the troops home and rehabilitating them, and rebuilding what we've
destroyed in another's country. This will be a baby step in correcting some of the problems which our American arrogance
has created.

Rand Kokernot

So, even now the most hard-core democrat should understand there is no difference in the two parties.

Don't vote for a lie. Vote Nader or for another independent candidate.

As one of our noted thespians so elequently put it...."It's good to be the King"

Please stop beating the 'it's never going to happen' drumbeat. People who regurgitate this Repug friendly mantra are really beginning to sound like operatives.

It is going to happen because WE DEMAND IT.

RichM, June 17th, 2008 4:57 pm,

is right:

- It will never get that far — the Democrats will protect Bush & Cheney right to the bitter end — so there won't be any convictions in need of "pardons."

whatfools June 17th, 2008 12:58 pm

"If Congress won't impeach then we need to send all three branches of these homocidal looting liars off to the ICC for disposal and start anew."

whatfools,

The problem, according to a recent poll exposed by CNN, is that the majority in this country can't even name the "three" branches of government. How can they possibly understand how they've been railroaded?

Uneducated and ignorant citizens are the key to the kingdom of perpetual government corruption!

Daniel David, you cannot understand the significance of things.

The Kucinich impeachment proceedings may seem ineffectual because Washington is loaded full of dopes, but in conjunction with Vincent Bugliosi's book and plan about indicting Bush and Cheney for mass-murder, it takes on unforeseen and unforeseeable life.

Bugliosi's involvement of course invites comparison to Charles Manson, one of the 30 murder cases he successfully prosecuted versus no losses.

But I think it also invites comparison to the Harry K. Thaw case, he being the man who shot architect Stanford White June 25, 1906 in front of a full theater audience on the roof of Madison Square Garden.

The mass murders by Bush and Cheney also occurred in the open, but in front of the whole world, with the whole world knowing very well what happened.

Given the complete case gathered and structured by Bugliosi in his best-selling book "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder," the best defense that Bush and Cheney can offer may be "temporary insanity" like Thaw.

Bugliosi has asked for a team of ambitious young prosecutors to come forward, promising to help them in every way.

Will they do it, further inspired perhaps by our administration's blatant contempt for justice and law?

If such a team does organize, national accountability may finally occur.

But there are other comparisons to be made among Bush, Cheney and Thaw, not to mention Bush's own great uncle James Bush, who killed his own daughter in a drunken car crash.

These names, dead and alive, share the trait of uneducability and never were able to grow in any meaningful way throughout their lifetimes.

If you are witness to a robbery/murder taking place and you have the responsibility to stop it but decide to wait until the criminals move on, thinking that "things may be better" or "it will be easier to indict if we wait", then you are complicit and responsible for those same crimes.

Bottle, Bugliosi is a smart cookie. I hope what he proposes comes to pass…

BUT, won't the Democrats and Republicans just pardon Bush or rewrite the laws (or simply ignore the laws like they have been doing up till now)? Is Kissenger in jail? Oliver North? The US government would say something like " prosecuting Bush will be too divisive and harmful to the nation", or I know, "It would reveal sources and methods". I love that one. Consider the following hypothetical courtroom scenario.

John Yoo – "Your Honour, my client cannot face trial on the charge of mass murder. The proceeding would necessitate the disclosure that the sources he relied on included the voice of Jesus Christ as channelled through his pet dog Barney.

It would also reveal the hitherto secret method that allows Bush to talk while Cheney is drinking a glass of water."

BOTTLE: I really appreciate your optimistic, out-of-the-box thinking. Life looks the same until suddenly some kind of critical mass moment arises and everything suddenly changes. The healthy individual jogs and keels over dead; the weather looks swell until a freak storm blows in. I am in "the business" of prediction and life can and often does surprise me. EVIL eventually takes itself down. It's a damned shame so many have had to become martyrs for this fatal enactment of supreme evil, aided and abetted by the engines of capitalism and the largest military the world has ever witnessed assemble. Still, and I truly believe George Lucas was prescient to the point of constructing the seminal ALLEGORY of our times (in Star Wars) as he depicted a small ad hoc group of caring visionaries capable of working together to capitalize on the singular flaw in the death star's construction/design & leadership.

Maybe Bugliosi is our Obi Wan wise man, and the attorneys, a young Leah and Luke team, AIM and fire the grand LIGHT that disintegrates the massive darkness that has swept our nation into a dizzying mass of grotesque and UNGODLY clouds of massive deception.

Stranger things have happened. Indeed, fiction is often weirder than non-fiction...

"Impeachment is off the table because it is not in corporate America's interest to hang our their dirty laundry."

Can we hang out corporate America instead?

justice matters daniel david you shill

Flood your senators, your district congressperson, the Speaker of the House, and the Chair of the House Judiciary Committee with letters, e-mails, and phone calls ------- as often as possible; daily if you can.

Use all means of communication. I live in CA where Feinstein and Boxer have six and seven offices respectively. My letter is going to each and every local office as well as to the two offices of Conyers and my local congressman. Still, the cost was under $8.00 in postage.

As someone said in a comment somewhere, "The table is our, Ms. Pelosi, not yours." Tell her to put impeachment back on our table. Short, pointed, and true. You don't have to write a book. You only need to be respectful (otherwise they pay no attention--hah!). Just write!!

And don't forget your newspaper. Get those letters to the editor out there. Tell your paper you want front page coverage of this most significant call for the restoration of our liberties and the Constitution.

Many thanks to Dennis, Brattleboro, Gore Vidal, and everyone who is keeping this issue alive and percolating.

Thank you, VT, for leading the way, along with Dennis Kucinich, John Nichols, Bob Fertik, and Democrats.com. The rest of us must speak up. Repeating....

'As someone said in a comment somewhere, "The table is our, Ms. Pelosi, not yours." Tell her to put impeachment back on our table. Short, pointed, and true....'

Yes, SPEAK UP!! Demand justice.

Adele, unless I'm missing something, it's not much of an argument to assert that impeachment proceedings trivialize the appropriate adjudication, e.g. a war crimes trial in an international court. Or perhaps the criminal prosecutions envisioned by Bugliosi.

You imply that it's an either-or choice, or a zero-sum game. I don't see why. First things first; impeach to begin restoring integrity to the US government, and then hand the bastards over to the Hague. Where there's a will, there's a way. I'm on board with all of the above!

And beyond that, it's hardly convincing or compelling to propose backing off the remedy of impeachment in favor of a campaign to try the misfeasors as war criminals. If impeachment is risky and problematic, putting US leaders on trial for war crimes, however desirable, is even more "impractical" than moving to impeach.

If manunkind survives for a few more generations, I very much doubt that historians will look back and say, "Why couldn't they have gotten over that IMPEACHMENT nonsense and concentrated on trying Bush for WAR CRIMES?" 8)

amazing that nothing more has been posted here...Little Brother can for sure speak the truth....and i look up humbly.....

DC has been lost for a long time.

Don't you know?

Dream on.

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Reagan. A list of "great" presidents. All of them were guilty of very serious crimes and only Lincoln got punished.

Get real. Presidents of the US, and most other places, are almost always criminally inclined, and the people expect that. They elect that. They want that. And they want their share.

lizard, have you stifled another conversation?

you are effective in your own little realm.

and yes, that was flippant.....later....CD'ers.....time is of the essence...

The history of the US is a calamity I was never taught. The heroes turn out not to be heroes. The history is like that of a leech getting plump attached first to the indians, then the indians and the blacks, then the immigrants and other countries, and now the whole world which we are threatening to suck out to death.

The difference between the truth and what we were taught is the reason America feels justified in inflicting horror on the world.

Over 1 million Iraqis have been murdered by America, and America doesn't see it fit to stop.

Run, Jane , Run. Dick has a gun. Kill, Dick, kill. Run Spot, FAST.

lizard you should just get over your problems with the US of A....grow up why don't you.

If you want to be helpful why don't you ..........