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Why You Should Care How Your Meat Is Raised
I have farmed for 30 years, land that has been in my family since 1848. Farming has gotten pretty intensive; small farms with kids and dogs and sheep and chickens running around are mostly just a fond memory.
Back in the '70s, U.S. Department of Agriculture Secretary Earl Butz urged farmers to plant commodity crops "fence row to fence row" and told us "adapt or die." It was bad enough when USDA Secretary Ezra Taft Benson told us (in the '50s) to "get big or get out," but "adapt or die"?
No matter. American farmers were listening to these two guys because getting big and planting fence row to fence row became gospel. Farms, almost all of them, have become very specialized. Most function as part of the animal production chain, either housing and feeding cattle, pigs and poultry or growing the grain commodities (corn and soy) for all those animals to eat.
Commodity crop farms have gotten large, thousands of acres, and they generally plant corn one year and soy the next, which is pretty hard on the soil. Animals are often raised in concentrated animal feeding operations (CAFOs), which characteristically confine large numbers of animals either in specialized buildings or outdoor feedlots. Animals may not have access to pasture, outdoors, fresh air or natural light.
Feed may be grown miles or states away from the CAFO, which makes the operations very fossil-fuel-intensive. Hauling manure long distances is not cost-effective since it is mostly water, so CAFO operators may find it difficult to get rid of the manure, which has become a liability. With manure unavailable locally, grain farmers buy commercial fertilizer, which is petroleum-based. Again, fossil-fuel-intensive. Hardly a sustainable system when compared to integrated small farms growing their own crops and recycling the manure.
Farming has evolved to this, it's gotten big, it's gotten very dependent on fossil fuel -- and if you live next to a CAFO, it has gotten very smelly. The Centers for Disease Control notes that, if you work on or live near a CAFO, it has gotten potentially hazardous to your health as well.
Specialized manure-holding facilities are required, but due to the large volumes produced, heavy rain, snow, storage leaks or improper handling, CAFOs create a very real potential for big manure spills. Thousands of animals, millions of gallons of manure, and you could be asking for problems. According to the CDC, manure can contain pollutants such as antibiotics, pathogens, nitrates, pesticides, hormones, trace elements and heavy metals -- none of them good, especially if they enter the drinking water.
CAFOs are convenient for large-scale production that looks to cut costs by packing maximum numbers of animals into minimal space, lowering labor costs and taking advantage of economies of scale. They are also great customers for the corporations that profit from selling fertilizer, crop chemicals, animal feed, hormones and drugs.
Contrary to what the "get big or get out" crowd would have us believe, CAFOs and industrial agriculture are not necessary to feed the world. Small farms are typically more efficient food producers, especially in developing countries where they farm their land more intensively and can achieve four times greater output per acre, while still farming in a sustainable manner.
CAFOs are said to be an efficient cost-effective farming system (if one ignores the cost to the environment, animals living in unnatural conditions, potential for pollution and possible human health concerns). They are necessary only as long as we demand large amounts of grain-fed meat, dairy and eggs. If cheap food is the only priority, they meet the challenge. Most consumers happily hunt for bargains, never questioning the production practices that made the bargains possible. So really, consumers asked for CAFOs, they wanted cheap food, and they weren't all that concerned where it came from.
If that idea bothers you, start learning about how food is produced, where and by whom. Farmers will operate CAFOs only as long as consumers choose to buy what the CAFO produces.
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Show AllGolly, I read the headline and though it was an article about Viagra.
~Word Press~ just informed me that I post my comments too quickly and to slow down. Think I'll just stop posting comments here altogether, join my friends Katyhodat and Rebel Farmer and please Word Press and everyone else.
Kem -- i for one will miss you, even if we disagree about the immediate dangers of methane burping permafrost
Your comments and links concerning the DU situation were very well researched, timely and horrifying, i have been following the DU thing ever since first seeing pics of horribly deformed babies born in Basra, then i remembered that some sensitive souls had felt there was a distinctly demonic element unleashed during the 'first' (1991) Gulf War -- now we know what that 'demonic element' is
I had a teacher (not a very good teacher but he told some interesting stories) who was involved with naval 'stand-off' during the Cuban missile crises, wish i had taken notes of what he said, he was on one of the boats which was right in the thick of things, perhaps someday you can write down what you know about it ?
June 30th is the 100th anniversary of the Tunguska Event !
Oh and since the above is all off topic, i am on the side of locally raised/fed beef, we used to have Galloway cattle (while we were learning to put up hay, they ate all our mistakes), and they were a really nice breed, very cold tolerant, cows were easy calvers and the bull was so mellow we would prop our little girl on his broad black back . . . after we got better at the hay thing we went to ponies . . . the Siberians would come over and say, wow what a good meat resource you have there . . . from their perspective at least . . .
Now even the cow hay has gotten so dear that our friends who raise a herd of buffalo are afraid they will have to get out of that project, can no longer afford to feed them, that would be sad, they love their breeding stock and we trade them hay for the most delicious and sustaining meat . . .
Meat eating by humans is a sin. Its a sin against Nature, a sin against other species and a sin against our own.
All the arguments to suggest otherwise are erroneous.
Its just excuses. All debunked here:
http://animalvegfaq.tripod.com
Humans are herbivores with absolutely NO business eating 'meat'.
http://allinharmony.org
We are ALL animals and there is really no difference between animals in the ability to feel or innate intelligence.
The only difference is that we humans are conditioned to behave unnaturally (and believe in our superiority) and to violate the requirements of nature for our own health and the health of other creatures and the ecospheres that support us.
One final, just for your pleasure ~Alaskamaid~. ____ It's about Alaska.
http://www.farnorthscience.com/2007/09/26
I just visited the most beautiful farm in Hardwick, Massachusetts. They raise chickens, lambs, pork, beef, and turkeys. The lambs were gamboling in the field, the pigs were snoozing in the cool mud, and the cattle were eating grass. We're starting to see this more and more in New England.
I beg to differ, we are not herbivores. We are animals, and animals eat animals. Contrary to what many may believe, humans need animal fats and proteins. There are critical nutrients missing from a vegan diet.
I have been vegetarian for 13 years now. You don't need to eat animals. That is just ignorance at it's best.
EDIT: Just noticed you said Vegan. I really should go back to total vegan diet, I felt really strong during that time of beans, rice, veggies and fruits. Trying to eat vegan when you aren't making all your own food is hard to do. The little cheese I eat here and there is doing nothing good for my body though.
"I beg to differ, we are not herbivores."
This conventional belief is not scientifically accurate.
"When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores."
William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
__________
"We are animals, and animals eat animals."
Correction: Carnivores animals eat animals. Herbivore animals (such as elephants, buffalo, humans and rabbits) do not, unless acculturated to do so.
_________
"Contrary to what many may believe, humans need animal fats and proteins."
Correction:
1) Animal fat is responsible for Type II Diabetes, arthrosclerosis, early onset puberty, etc.
2) Animal proteins cannot be completely digested by humans. That which is broken down results in acidification which is the cause of osteoporosis and kidney stones, by virtue of the fact that this results in leaching calcium to balance the body's ph. And there are many other debilitating consequences from consuming animal proteins such as autism.
_____________
"There are critical nutrients missing from a vegan diet."
Correction: 'vegan diet' is misleading. Vegan implies a lifestyle choice. The correct understanding is the ecologically scripted one... humans are herbivores and only plant based foods are healthy for them... as is clearly evidenced by voluminous medical data.
Following excerpt from: http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html, the largest ever nutrition study undertaken by Dr. T. Colin Campbell and Thomas M. Campbell II.
"The science is clear. The results are unmistakable.
Change your diet and dramatically reduce the risk of cancer, diabetes, heart disease and obesity.
Respected nutrition and health researcher, Dr. T. Colin Campbell reveals the truth behind special interest groups, government entities and scientists that have taken Americans down a deadly path"
If you're really concerned about lack of protein and fats, lentils and proteins such as hemp, flax, and whey can completely substitute for meat. Before China and India got onto the meat-eating bandwagon, they used to thrive on various forms of lentils. Falling for the trap of trying to "out-western" the US, meat-eating has become more "mainstream" there too. Hopefully, all this will reverse.
KIM - you need not accept the opinion of others.
As for eating dead animals...it turns my stomache. BSE, MERSA, Mercury, et c.
Concentration Camps. The source of 99c burgers and 99c chicken nuggets.
Tours of slaughterhouses should be a part of all curriculum.
Look away, nothing to see, you can't watch the animals being killed then rendered, just like you can't watch the real cost of war. Those coffins are just so distasteful.
"As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields." -Leo Tolstoy
What happens if someday it is learned that plants can feel pain and are sentient beings as well? Eating meat or not eating meat, all organisms must consume other living things to survive. As beings that seem to be able to make certain choices based upon knowlege, to me, I think making sane, humane, moral choices is what matters. Trying to break the cycle of industrialized meat production I can agree with, but to claim that we should all become vegetarians because you or some website say so it patently ludicrous.
How can you say what is unnatural? Why do people always think that we are the only beings on the planet capable of actions which are "unnatural"? We should accept our smallness and know that we are the same as all other inhabitants on this planet, bound by the same rules, and no more in total control of "nature" than any other species. Just because some of our actions seem counter-productive or destructive does not mean that those actions are necessarily unnatural. The Grand Plan is probably unfolding exactly as intended, but we can not accept our "sameness", we feel we must be different. Perhaps the whole reason that humans ever evolved was to insure that enough greenhouse gases were produced to bring about the evolution of the next phase of life on the planet.
Stop thinking so small… try to have a positive impact… and don't force your choices on others
I heard a really cool discussion about how Native Americans would eat the heart of the animals they kill since they believed it gave them the strength and different positive benefits of the animal. Animals in nature are what I would consider balanced and strong.
Now take a cow who is fed crap food, caged, depressed, overweight, sick, full of toxins. Guess the Natives were right, look at your average meat eating american's attributes.
what about my room mate who's allergic to soy?
"What happens if someday it is learned that plants can feel pain and are sentient beings as well? "
This has already been done. There is a book called "The Secret Life of Plants". All life is sentient!
"Eating meat or not eating meat, all organisms must consume other liveing things to survive."
Nature is actually a system of cooperative interaction. If squirrels decided to bury bird eggs instead of nuts, how well would that work and how many forests would ever have existed? let alone squirrels and birds.
This is not about how conscious Nature is, nor about phase changes (including death) that exist as part of the natural living process; it is about what interactions contribute to the perpetuation of life as opposed to what processes insure its destruction.
Diet is a very key feature of every creature's necessary niche behaviors... necessary to the health of that creature and to the ecospheres that support him.
Furthermore, as frugivores, we know when to pick a fruit. But, as frugivores, we do NOT know how to 'pick' an animal. Natural omnivores and carnivores actually 'pick' animals in ways that contribute to the health of that species. Think about it.
"As beings that seem to be able to make certain choices based upon knowlege, "
I think this is entirely debatable given the ignorance that is guiding most human affairs. Few humans today are making knowledge based decisions, most act out of cultural scripts actually designed to be completely free of fact.
"...to me, I think making sane, humane, moral choices is what matters."
There is no question you are right. But, such can not occur inside a cultural box that dictates the dominance of elite cultural interests over the rest of nature including human nature.
"Trying to break the cycle of industrialized meat production I can agree with, "
Good. It is the greatest tragedy imaginable.
"but to claim that we should all become vegetarians "
I simply point out that we are anatomically and physiologically herbivores. Which means that the only diet supported in nature for humans is a plant based one. This is not opinion, it is scientific fact.
"...because you or some website say so it patently ludicrous."
Because I say something it is "patently ridiculous"?
That's nonsensical. I am not ridiculous. And I do not say ridiculous things. Actually, I am quite careful to act with the utmost clarity and responsibility.
"Why do people always think that we are the only beings on the planet capable of actions which are "unnatural"?"
I am certainly NOT one of those.
MANY creatures can be CULTURALLY SCRIPTED to act other than their nature. Even cows can be made to cannibalize each other... bears can ride bikes, seals can do tricks, monkeys can play organs... birds can even break locks faster than people! And, birds can be taught NOT to fly!
What is important is to address culture. Life is what we have, what we want, what we are all in together. And nature has designed certain 'boundaries of operation' for all creatures including humans.
As long as those boundaries are respected... life continues. (Inside these boundaries are the regions of play, expression, etc. for each creature and the human 'field of play' is certainly MUCH GRANDER and MUCH WIDER than is currently enjoyed by any.)
Once boundaries are destroyed, life starts to ebb and we arrive here...
So, the decision is ours. Will we continue to lay waste to the mechanisms and structures that support life, or will we recover natural sanity and rejoin those still trying to live within the boundaries and under the laws designed to make it all possible?
uMMM, humans eat both veggies and critters. That makes us omnivores. I'd rather raise my own chickens tho, that way I'll know what's in them. I'd also rather trust the guy I know who raises cattle, rather than what the feedlot provides; my uncle won't sell me a downer cow.
"I heard a really cool discussion about how Native Americans would eat the heart of the animals they kill since they believed it gave them the strength and different positive benefits of the animal."
Quite a few Native American tales are just that.
In my area, park rangers give classes on Native American hunting traditions. But NO ethnographies of any sort were ever done including drawings of dwellings, clothing, etc. No discussions of what natives ate were ever recorded before these unique societies, reputed to be in the thousands, wee vanquished.
Furthermore, how many human societies were simply offshoots of earlier temple societies? This remains unclear since apparently there were many who crossed via the Aleutian Islands or Bering Strait from societies where meat-eating was already established as part of their elite temple cultures.
Tearing the heart out of an animal and consuming it is a disgusting act and not at all natural for humans. And it certainly would not contribute to human social, physical and emotional wellness!
"uMMM, humans eat both veggies and critters. That makes us omnivores"
There is a BIG difference between a cultural omnivore (one who has been taught to eat meat, you for instance) and a natural omnivore (a bear).
(Funny educational video on omnivore vs herbivore subject http://youtube.com/watch?v=05zhL1YUd8Q)
"If you look at various characteristics of carnivores (meat eaters) versus herbivores (non-meat eaters), it doesn't take a genius to see where humans compare."
(Quote from William C. Roberts, Editor in chief of The American Journal of Cardiology and medical director of the Baylor Heart and Vascular Institute at Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas)
From "The Comparative Anatomy of Eating", by Milton R. Mills, MD
Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed
Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle
Jaw Joint Location
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars
Jaw Motion
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Major Jaw Muscles
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids
Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
CARNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
OMNIVORE: Large
HUMAN: Small
Teeth: Incisors
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Teeth: Canines
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted
Teeth: Molars
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps
Chewing
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary
Saliva
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Stomach Type
CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple
Stomach Acidity
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Stomach Capacity
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract
Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length
Colon
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated
Liver
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Kidney
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine
Nails
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails
Kem Patrick - thank you for your first post. Gave me my laugh of the week. Don't get many of them any more.
And thank you for all your posts. I haven't read one yet that I didn't agree with. I hope you don't stop posting here.
When it comes to meat, I've always believed it was the so-called apple that Eve tempted Adam with. I also think the world would become a different place if everyone stopped eating meat.
I haven't eaten meat in years.
Just think of how much biogas could be made from all that manure! And the leftover solids can be used as fertilizer.
Sorry, militant vegans, but the world is not going to go your way any time soon. I'm glad you can eat the way you like. Everyone else is going to continue to eat animal products, as humans have done for a long, long time. Let's just go about it in a sane way that puts raising animals in balance with the environment and our own health and safety.
Some of you may not know this...or want to hear it...but the vegetarian contingent pushed hard for removing livestock from grazing lands in the early 80's. They said that it would be better to grow corn on that land in order to feed us and the cows. It would be better for the environment, they said. How'd that work out?
Until we started putting them in CAFO's, livestock did pretty well by co-evolving with humans. We protected them from predators, etc.
Oh never mind. But never forget that a fundamentalist is a fundamentalist is a fundamentalist...and it doesn't matter if they're thumping a Bible or a Vegan cookbook. It's the funny thing about "progressives"; just like their right leaning compatriots they see their own fundamentalism as enlightened, free thought.
It is a Nazi World Order...from the left and the right.
P.S. Would ItsaNaziWorldOrder please discuss the other primates in those classifications? Chimps regularly eat insects and hunt other monkeys for sport and food...are they omnivores or herbivores or carnivores? (Or do they not count because they don't fit into your neat little categories?) Just curious...
Thank you Jim Goodman - a voice of reason and common sense.
civilized people don' eat their friends.
"But never forget that a fundamentalist is a fundamentalist is a fundamentalist…and it doesn't matter if they're thumping a Bible or a Vegan cookbook."
Interesting... now I'm a fundamentalist? And the word is to be fully connoted? ... meaning just a hair short of a terrorist?
My first reaction is simple…
The empire (and its minions) does not like anyone entering its turf to awaken the disillusioned it has penned there...
so, the program becomes… don't try to refute the facts... it can no longer be done... and don't keep thumping the same empire disinfo... it's been credibly refuted...
move to the next phase... discredit those who share the facts... and if that still doesn't work... point out that anyone who really cares about ending unnecessary violence and continues to promote sanity by sharing verifiable info is to be considered dangerous! A committed nutcase… a potential Unabomber…
And so goes the Perfect Nazi social engineering program.
This is NOT about right and left... both are overrun and controlled by Nazi spin doctors preventing any truth from being shared.
This is really about the entire deception program upon which Empires (including the one in which you are presently ensconced) depend... and that begins with the first deception:
Empire myth: Humans are omnivores and thus naturally violent and power seeking. (An elite world order naturally results)
Natural truth: Humans are herbivores and killing is unnatural for them. (So too is any pretense to superiority over anything else in nature.)
Empire myth: Humans are at the 'top of the food chain'.
Natural truth: Humans are somewhere along the evolutionary dietary continuum between carnivorous and granivorous herbivore but decidedly in the range of herbivorous (most say frugivorous).
There is NO 'top' to the process whereby creatures are supported in a natural world... the exercise of diet is actually a factor in a cooperative life force mechanism.
"Chimps regularly eat insects and hunt other monkeys for sport and food…are they omnivores or herbivores or carnivores? (Or do they not count because they don't fit into your neat little categories?) Just curious…"
Chimps are obviously frugivores and the 'science' in regard to certain behaviors is highly suspect. Some recent observers claim that chimps NEVER swallow any flesh but will remove themselves from the group and regurgitate it.
I have already discussed this in comments on an article regarding Jane Goodall's suggestion that people who oppose animal experimentation should be given a Nobel Prize.
ALL primates are frugivores. Scientific references with links are given in those comments. Please read them in the archives. Thanks.
What about oysters ? Where do they fall on the spectrum ?
We can't all be frugivores, some climates preclude that.
There are very few vegans who can work outside in the winter up here.
If you stay inside where it's warm, then vegan is okay. But lots of us have outdoor jobs year-round.
From a practical standpoint, say you have a small herd for organic milk and cheese. You have to breed the animals to get the milk (duh). Nature's ratio of boys to girls is about 50-50. But in the world of animal herds, only the females are valuable (sorry guys, get over it) unless you happen to have superior genetics and end up as herd sire. So what do you do with all the other boys ? It doesn't make good sense to castrate them and feed them until they die of old age. Especially when they could be nourishing starving kids or some such.
One time i checked in with our pigs on how they felt about their fate and got the clear response that, given our climate, they 'preferred wintering over in the freezer'. Farm animals do have consciousness but theirs is of a different order than ours, more collective than individual and it's the continuity of the species rather than the individual that matters. Herdsmen are vital to that continuity, and the farm animals support them.
It is not a lifestyle for everyone, but it is a valid lifestyle. Humanely treated small farm animals are worlds apart from agribusiness meat producers.
The fact that humans have learned to survive in nearly every climate zone and in a huge variety of eco zones shows them to be inherently adaptive creatures. The fact is humans can survive off of desert cactus, pine nuts, rodents, insects, grass seeds, bananas, acorns, snakes, lizards, birds, elephants, buffalo, cows and their milk, apples and berries, walnuts and peaches, watercress, broccoli, potatoes, tomatoes, hogs, zebras, lichen, salmon, oysters, squid, spaghetti, sharks and popcorn, AND even each other.
I think that's called omnivore, but yes we can discuss, and argue, the healthiest options we have available to us now, which is a very recent development. But I think that the answers are not exactly the same for everyone.
"But I think that the answers are not exactly the same for everyone."
The answers for each species' members are the same. Any other thought is actually ludicrous.
Cows too can exist to some extent being fed other cows but, it is hardly the proper or healthiest diet for the cow.
Many strange things can happen in limited circumstances and for a limited time... but if continued, the price is high.
And that fact cannot be refuted.
Humans consuming animal products are exacting a very high price from all nature... and shortening their own lives in the process... and also deadening their own life experiences.
Since behaviors can be conditioned in dogs, cats, humans, birds, seals, bears, etc., behavior is not necessarily the proper metric for determining ecologically supported behaviors.
Cultures defined outside Nature's feedback systems may introduce any number of unnatural behaviors. What is completely definable though is what the Nature-supported diet for humans is.
All cows have the same range of dietary requirements and range of healthy dietary possibilities. The same is true for pigs, rabbits, seals, mockingbirds, deer, etc. Individuals of the same species do not differ in regard to healthy dietary possibilities.
Stop trying to pretend that humans are special in this regard. We are like all other creatures… if we violate our ecological niche… we fail… and in this case… we fail by destroying ourselves (including our natural wisdom) including our habitats.
whatfools___You mean you would rather eat live animals than dead ones? Now that seems like a fools idea to me.
Nazi___You seem determined to try to stop everyone from their custom of eating meat, which is like trying to stop the wind from blowing. If you want to eat the bark off of trees, it is ok with me, and it is not your business to tell the rest of us what we should or should not eat.
kelmer___There are many sins that you could be worrying about that would make some sense, but eating meat is certainly not one of them, as the Bible explains and common sense tells us.
Jim Goodman___I have also farmed and done the whole routine, beef cattle, dairy cattle, hogs, chickens, corn, wheat, alfalfa, gardening, irrigating, and enjoyed all of it. I wonder,though, how we will be able to entice younger people to do the work that a diversified operation requires after many of them have never experienced the great amout of dedication it requires. It is very hard to go from a modern lifestyle back to a life of hard, demanding labor unless one is highly motivated to do so.
It always amuses me to see folks who write things which are the equivalent of "it has been ever thus" and/or "they are qualitatively different to us".
Reminds me of the sorts of things that anti-ablitionists used to say about negroes.
Within a hundred years, our descendants will look back in horror at the idea that we held sentient beings in concentration camps and then killed them, hacked them to pieces and ate the pieces.
Biological arguments aside (and I like the list of physical attributes listed by itsaNaziWorldOrder), I think that the overarching imperative is moral: if one lived in a time where acquiring adequate nutrition from vegetables and fruits was difficult, then eating meat would be defensible as a means of survival (until you got smart enough to bugger off somewhere else). But in a world where we can live perfectly healthy lives without ever killing an animal, it is indefensible to do so.
Now, call me a hypocrite: I eat flesh all the time. What is worse, my preferred meat is pork (and baon and ham...). I say 'worse' because it appears that pigs are among the most intelligent of the animals we raise for food; the average pig is more intelligent than Condoleeeeezzzzaaaa Rice, without having wasted money on going to [insert Ivy League institution here]. (I'm never sure how many Z's, E's or A's are in that woman's name since they took it off the side of that oil tanker).
We will find - as our science catches up with what is obvious on its face to the dispassionate observer - that animals of all types have as rich a mental life as we do. They don't write poetry (having better things to do with their time) or hold fora on foreign policy (ditto), but they think, they feel, they PLAN and they INVEST (of which more later).
Just as we are in the process of moving beyond informational scarcity, we will shortly move beyond scarcity in production. That is not to say that resources wll become infinite, but that a combination of increased per capita output and a reduced requirement for reproduction-as-investment will see all wants satiated and a stable-to-declining population (only the poor reproduce en masse - it adds to their domestic labour force and is also a form of saving for retirement).
The eventual overcoming of scarcity in production will enable us to engage in a wholesale rethinking of our relationsip with the planet - which will result in rejecction and calumniation of our previous mode de vie. Which is as it ought to be. And God help us when AI takes over - we are clearly the biggest problem in the entire battlespace (because only WE see it as a battlespace) and AI would be wel justified in getting rid of us.
Anyhow... enough of nanotech and Terminator scenarios...
We live right next door to cattle raised in a beautiful countryside setting - the only time they are indoors is during the harsh Auvergnat winters. We see the interaction of mother and calf, the bond within the herd between adults, and we HEAR the pain of the mother who can't find her calf when it has been taken to be turned into veal. Once we figure out that they have a relatively complex set of calls, and that they THINK, what then?
I can tell you what then. We will no more think of eating them, than we would think of eating other people's children. it will take time, but it will happen.
Cheerio
GT
France
JaneM, I don't know exactly where you saw the creatures romping, but I'm from a burb of Philly and some of the farms on the outskirts raise Turkeys and just last week 2 women were attcked by Turkeys. I found it to be quite humourous, I suppose they told those two they just had better stop calling for cooking recipes for Turkeys.
Yes, NaziWorldOrder, you are a fundamentalist. It doesn't matter if a fundamentalist is "right" or "wrong", it's the way that such a person goes about life in general. Fundamentalists "know" that they are right and refuse to discuss...they only lecture. Moreover, anyone who is not in complete agreement with a fundamentalist is WRONG.
You're "science" is shaky because it all comes from people with a predecided point to prove.
Worse yet, every time that there is an article on this website that might provoke an interesting conversation about how we feed ourselves, you take it over with you long-winded proclamations from the mount of TRUTH. The same tired lists and categories get cut and pasted into the comments. And there never ends up being a real discussion about the article...because you always turn it into a discussion about veganism.
No one is telling you that you have to eat meat, so why do you feel it necessary to tell the rest of us what we must eat? The answer: because you're a fundamentalist. Not like a terrorist, but like a Jehovah's Witness who will ruin a perfectly pleasant Sunday afternoon by lecturing us on why we're going to hell unless we become a Witness too. The way you stammer on about exceptions to your rules is the same way that Witnesses get all confounded when you ask them about the dual creation myths of Genesis.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...most likely it is a duck.
People get a grip!
I read somewhere years ago, that event the peaceful chimpanzee goes out on an occasional rampage and kills a monkey and they all partake of the brains.
Now, as unappealing as that sounds there is a reason for it. B12 is not found in veggies. Our bodies can store it for a while in our livers, but when you run out POW! Ya want to kill something and eat it.
Now I am mostly vegetarian. I do eat eggs, no milk, I use almond milk, and I use some butter for baking. My meat consumption is almost nil. However, ever once in awhile I have the urge to kill something and eat meat.
I have tried my best to overcome this with no luck. I only buy organic meat and I watch the labels carefully. The terms "natural", "grass-fed" etc have to be watched. I do not want to compound my regression with other unhealthful practices.
I could take B12, however, that would be one more expense. In addition, it does not completely take the urge to eat meat away.
Pray for me.
Well, going out and killing your own game is completely different than picking up some dead flesh from the grocery store.
Hunting wild animals is not a problem imo, well if it's just for game it is but not if you are going to process and eat the whole animal.
The problem is raising animals just to kill and eat.
Dogface,
Your entire post sounds like it was written by a spin doctor.
You are almost vegetarian? But you have the urge to eat meat? NOT LIKELY!
I was raised in a household that consumed an extraordinary amount of meat. When I stopped (suddenly), I would hear my dead mother's voice guilt-tripping me about protein and such… but NEVER did I have the slightest interest to eat meat again...
I worried I would start dreaming of eating meat and be driven nearly crazy with a craving for it... but no such thing ever happened!
Reverting to a natural herbivore diet was the EASIEST thing I had ever done!
I did not know that humans were herbivores then, so I was totally astounded at how easy my decision was to live with.
I think you are simply a liar.
I have been eating a total vegetarian (vegan) diet for over two decades. I am probably the healthiest person you could ever meet in her fifties. And, I have much more freedom in my diet than I ever had before.
I eat like an herbivore… everything and anything that is plant based if it appeals to my taste buds… and that is more stuff than you could ever imagine! I DO NOT eat like a neurotic 'vegan' worried about B-12 or any other nutrient!
See below on the B-12 myth.
"I read somewhere years ago, that event the peaceful chimpanzee goes out on an occasional rampage and kills a monkey and they all partake of the brains."
This is HIGHLY unlikely for any primate in a natural ecology. Some part of this story is missing.
"Now, as unappealing as that sounds there is a reason for it. B12 is not found in veggies. Our bodies can store it for a while in our livers, but when you run out POW! Ya want to kill something and eat it."
Huh? That's pure balderdash! As the quote below proves… an organic carrot a day (or many other organic fruits and veggies) will keep the BS'ers at bay.
___________
Excerpt below from http://notmilk.com/vitaminb12.html
Vitamin B-12
"Many of you believe that Vitamin B-12 supplements are
critical to the health of vegans. I believe this to be pure
nonsense.
In 1996, Victor Herbert determined that B-12 deficiency is
rare among vegans, even though most do not take supplemental
B-12. His landmark work was published in the American
Journal of Clinical Nutrition, vol. 59(suppl), pp. 1213S-
1222S. Herbert wrote:
"To a great extent, B-12 is recycled from liver bile in the
digestive system...The enterohepatic circulation of vitamin
B-12 is very important in vitamin B-12 economy and
homeostasis...bodies reabsorb 3-5 mcg of bile vitamin B-12.
Because of this, an efficient enterohepatic circulation
keeps the adult vegan, who eats very little vitamin B-12,
from developing B-12 deficiency disease..."
Despite real science, the B-12 myth continues. If you feel
that you must eat B-12 (which is produced by bacterial
action), then buy organic carrots and be sure to eat the
unwashed roots. Washing will kill the bacteria, rich with
Vitamin B-12."
__________
Now, how many of you have seen cows or horses or rabbits suddenly "lose their stores of B-12" and then get the urge to go out and kill something?
"Well, going out and killing your own game is completely different than picking up some dead flesh from the grocery store."
It may be different to you but by Natural Law...
... it is still a human herbivore acting out an insane cultural script... and damaging a precious part of natural life in the process...
"It doesn't matter if a fundamentalist is "right" or "wrong", it's the way that such a person goes about life in general."
You mean people who take serious matters seriously?
Are people who oppose slavery also 'fundamentalists'? What about people who oppose CIA sponsored child wars? Are they 'fundamentalists'? What if they dedicate their lives to revealing the complete insanity of these situations?
If I am a fundamentalist... then does that make you an irresponsible flake... or worse?
"You're "science" is shaky because it all comes from people with a predecided point to prove."
Au contraire!
According to TWO former NIH directors, they were told their very first day on the job to NEVER advocate eating less meat as the means to achieving better health regardless of what the scientific findings showed!
"No one is telling you that you have to eat meat, so why do you feel it necessary to tell the rest of us what we must eat?"
I am not coming over to your house and shooting your dog, your friends, or burning down your trees.
But, you are in my biosphere and illegally hunting, enslaving, imprisoning and butchering my friends... and chopping up and burning down their (and my) habitats!
...and then telling me that if I point out the complete insanity and stupidity of this, I am a nut?
Or if I insist upon discussing this until people can see for themselves how (and why) this is utterly insane, that I am nuts?
"You're "science" is shaky because it all comes from people with a predecided point to prove."
Many of the biggest names in the vegan movement are doctors who became vegans AFTER doing their research.
These include Dr. Colin Campbell who conducted the largest cross-cultural study of diet and nutrition ever undertaken.
"We are basically a vegetarian species and should be eating a wide variety of plant food and minimizing our intake of animal foods.... "Once people start introducing animal products into their diet, that's when the mischief starts." "
--T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D., of Cornell University, director of a study of 6,500 Chinese that found a close correlation between meat consumption and the incidence of heart disease and cancer.
"Awareness is bad for the meat business. Conscience is bad for the meat business. Sensitivity to life is bad for the meat business. DENIAL, however, the meat business finds indispensable."
--John Robbins, Diet for a New America
Is ~Dogface~ a potential serial killer? He's asking for help.
HE must be a HE.____ No woman would use ~DOGFACE~ for a nickname.
Some could of course.
"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of `real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital."
--Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Washington, D.C.
rebelnow is right, we are ADAPTAVORES
Kem Patrick-- thanks for link to burping lake, it is something of a tradition here to go out in the winter, burst the ice bubbles that form on lakes due to methane gas accumulation, and light them with an aim'n'flame . . .
Here is a link to the Tunguska Centennial events : omzg.sscc.ru/
Fortunately the area was so remote that very few people were killed, the closest eyewitnesses were indigenous Tungus who (gasp) maintain their families and culture by managing reindeer herds . . .
Personally, i would much rather see the many marginalized and endangered small farm breeds of animals be nurtured through careful herdsmanship than allowed to go extinct as some are on the verge of . . . they may be a valuable part of future sustainable lifestyles . . .
Animals often serve as the food of last resort during times of famine, you may make the choice to not eat meat but if you were starving would you also make that choice for your children ? We assume that the climate will remain conducive to agriculture but that may not in fact be the case; animals can survive and even thrive in conditions where human food plants will perish . . . 'Global warming' may mean really abrupt and dramatic changes over very short periods of time which could be the end of large-scale agriculture . . . then we may wish we still had multi-purpose breeds like Irish Dexter and Galloway cattle . . .
And after the local moose have dined on your umpteenth organic garden in a row (very hard to fence them out, for large animals they are amazing jumpers and if that doesn't work they tend to lean on your fence until it falls over, also some of them seem to like the shock of an electric fence), you too might be inclined, as we sometimes are, to dine on the moose . . .