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'Open Carry' Guns at Our Children's Risk
Imagine a child barely tall enough to reach the top drawer of the bedroom dresser. Imagine the child on tip-toes opening the drawer because the forbidden object is hidden there. The naughty thrill of reaching under the socks, the shock of actually touching the thing, finding it cold, as if on ice. Such is my memory of furtive encounters with my father's handgun. At the time, Dad was an FBI agent. Where he stowed his weapon when off-duty was absolutely out-of-bounds, which defined its appeal. Invading that drawer is my first remembered act of disobedience.
Even at age 4, I was hypnotized by a gun. The gun was a mystical object, with significance that far transcended any imagined use. Fear, but also consolation. Awe. Trembling. That the gun was my father's was a first clue to potency. Hidden away, yet the gun sent a pulse through the whole apartment, a psychological electromagnet around which my awareness swirled. Long before I tasted the temptations of sex, I yielded to an irresistible prurience by opening that drawer. Initiation into obscenity. Because primal disobedience is so defining, I found a sense of independent selfhood in relationship to a gun. Only later would I realize how very American that makes me.What is it with Americans and guns? "The right to bear arms" is the constitutional dynamo sparking an electromagnetic pulse through every corner of politics. Meanwhile, in the nation's cities, a slow-motion massacre unfolds, with gunshots mercilessly cutting down a legion of the young. Yet in legislatures, bills designed to reduce gun violence are routinely killed by the all-powerful lobbying of the National Rifle Association. Presidential candidates are universally required to worship at the altar of the Second Amendment.
Now an "open carry" movement encourages gun owners to wear their weapons ostentatiously on their belts, "to make a firearm," in the words of a Los Angeles Times story last week, "as common an accessory as an iPod." Or, as one open carrier said, "Hey, we're normal people who carry guns."
Get used to it. In most states, there is no law against license-holders cradling a rifle on the street, or holstering a firearm on a hip, like Wyatt Earp. But since the close of the last frontier, gun display, except in movies, has been culturally taboo. The power of that prohibition is what stirred me at my father's dresser. "Open carry" aims to remove such visceral negativity, though the taboo amounts, in fact, to last ditch gun control. The "normalizing" of guns will inevitably normalize their use. From movies to legislation to political rhetoric - and now to "accessory" fashion: guns galore. And who, pray tell, will bear, not the arms, but the consequences?
In despair over unchecked gun-carnage in Chicago schools, Mayor Richard Daley asked, "Why is America turning its back on its children when it comes to gun violence?" The answer is buried deep in the national psyche, and I am a case in point. The gun is a totemic object, with meanings that drill far below surface arguments about self-defense, the sport of hunting, standing militias, or the intent of the Framers. Children die because these deeper meanings of the gun go unreckoned with.
Anthropologists suggest that the evolutionary mutation separating primates from humans was the invention of the weapon. Instead of merely gathering food, our forebears began to hunt for it, and "culture" followed. The hunt organized around a weapon, whether a wedge-shaped stone or a sharpened stick, led to cooperation, planning, sharing, communication, and even upright posture. But the use of weapons against fellow animals seems also to have imbued humans with a sense of shame, which spawned post-hunt rituals of sacrificial atonement, the genesis of religion. Only the weapon made it possible for humans to better beasts, but only shame enabled humans to moderate the weapon's use. Otherwise, the human species would have plunged quickly into self-eliminating extinction.
In the great American gun debate, some would forgo the primordial shame the weapon still generates. Hence the "open carry" movement. But given the gun-deaths of children, and the sponsoring gun-paralysis of politics, Americans should have more shame, not less. A gun is no iPod. Shame is the children's last protection.
James Carroll's column appears regularly in the Globe.
© Copyright 2008 Globe Newspaper Company
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42 Comments so far
Show All"Even at age 4, I was hypnotized by a gun. The gun was a mystical object, with significance that far transcended any imagined use. Fear, but also consolation. Awe. Trembling."
gun culture....messes with your mind....turn's you into a slobbering idiot who can only think in terms of "kicking butt"
or i could be wrong ..of course i am...now put the gun away...i was only kidding
I remember back in 1992 when I moved to Phoenix from Los Angeles. I was in a Taco Bell, when a guy walked in armed to the teeth with guns in his holsters and spare bullets. I said to my lunchmate in fear, "Oh my GOD! He's got guns!" She looked up and, without stopping her meal said, "Oops. I forgot to take my gun out. It's in my purse." Then I looked at the sign on the door which read, "All Firearms must be openly displayed." I just crossed a stateline and felt like I landed in another country.
If people don't like the 2nd Amendment, why not stop quibbling over what it means and repeal it?
When America can go out of its way to make harmful stuff "legal", they could sure as hell do the same for HARMLESS ones as well.
I can't imagine shooting a human being, even in war, which of course is the ultimate obscenity anyway. I killed some birds with a bb gun, merely for sport, as a young teenager, 13, 14 years old and today at 58 I still feel ashamed. I AM a gun owner but they are for sale. What use is a 9mm pistol or a 12 gauge shotgun in the face of the power (2nd amendment reason etc.) of a standing army, also an abomination intended to last no longer than two years by "the framers"? I imagine how I'd feel after killing an intruder in the middle of the night. I'd never be able to sleep again. I'd probably wind up committing suicide. I couldn't do it. The guns gotta go.
Kent, just remember that the Afghans and Iraqis are facing off against the power of the American State and fighting it to a standstill. Those who beat their swords into plowshares will wind up doing the plowing for those who still have swords.
Paul_GA writes, "Kent, just remember that the Afghans and Iraqis are facing off against the power of the American State and fighting it to a standstill."
Sorry pal, not sure where you get your information. . . oh I forgot this leftist propaganda site. . . how stupid of me! SLAP! In the mean time my brothers and sisters in uniform (and not) are putting a whooping on muhammad's murderers. GOD Bless our Troops!
US citizens finding a necessity for carrying guns signifies a gross failure of society. Will duelling by gunfight to settle arguments be the next trend? It maybe less expensive than duelling by lawyers. Carrying guns means they are eventually going to be used in conflict.
Or maybe gun carriers can be given Darwin awards when their children kill or injure their parents or themselves while playing with guns.
It wasn't long after I began my lifelong devotion to a certain delightful herb that it flashed upon me that all of the gun-lover's passionate personal and legal rhetoric and rationalization was more or less patter fueled by a righteous buzz. That is, I realized that "Happiness Is a Warm Gun" (bang, bang; shoot, shoot) wasn't just a silly or mischievous throwaway lyrical hook-- it revealed a crucial clue to the visceral, emotional attachment to firearms earnestly and emphatically demonstrated by gun-lovers.
The same dynamic applies to motor vehicles as well, from MINI Cooper to Hummer. Except that vehicles aren't designed expressly to maim and kill (or shred inanimate objects, from person-shaped targets to STOP signs, as a pastime); it's just a happy accident. And neither the Constitutions nor its amendments address the issue of motor vehicle ownership, unless you count the "pursuit of happiness". So the laws and regulations regarding motor vehicle ownership and use, while affording their share of hassles, aren't as controversial as gun laws.
Gun lovers love guns. Even the most unimaginative and apolitical hunter will caress the barrel of his weapon between shots. There are all sorts of seductive elements at play, including the natural fascination and appreciation of precision machinery and the feeling of POWER that comes by merely holding a loaded gun. And there's gun culture: the traditional craft and skill of designing, building, shooting, and maintaining these fine instruments.
In short, it struck me even as a teenager that those NRA mofos were HIGH on guns. They despise and resent the beautiful, powerful, useful objects of their passion being declared evil, toxic, and ultimately forbidden-- EXACTLY as I despise and resent the way cannabis and other mood-altering substances are denigrated by the authorities.
And we also share a ferocious conviction that the object of our passion is an asset and treasure to those capable of using it RESPONSIBLY. The gun nuts' outrage at having firearms "blamed" for violent crime remarkably parallels my irritation at the stupid and credulous assumption that recreational drug use CAUSES crime, and simply deny the likelier prospect that it's the CRIMINALIZATION of drug use that generates the spirals and cycles of crime or violence inevitably attending illicit activity.
So don't get caught up too deeply in the labored and high-minded rationalizations about decent Amerikan hinterlanders using the noble tool of the hunting rifle to put food on their family, or latter-day militia-wannabees keeping an arsenal to hold the black helicopters or the King of England at bay... Remember the Alamo!
The simpler way to look at it is that whatever the details, gun addicts love their stash, love the market that offers no end of variety, love that buzz, and don't want to hear anything that even remotely threatens to take any of that away from them. I can relate!
Taking that gun out of Charlton Heston's cold, dead hands is like taking a joint out of my cold, dead fingers, or taking a dildo from Jenna Jameson's... no, it's too appalling to contemplate.
Imagine a child barely tall enough to reach the kitchen drawer. Imagine the child on tip-toes opening the drawer because the forbidden object is hidden there. The naughty thrill of reaching past the spoons, the shock of actually touching the thing, finding it cold, as if on ice. Such is my memory of furtive encounters with my father's steak knife. At the time, Dad was a Chef. Where he stowed his knife when off-duty was absolutely out-of-bounds, which defined its appeal. Invading that drawer is my first remembered act of disobedience.
Hey 1st shirt. If this is a "whooping" I'd hate to see what losing looks like. You like military history I bet. Alexander conquered everything from Turkey to west India in the time it has taken Bush/Cheney and your "brothers and sisters in arms" to lose control of almost everything outside the Green Zone. And that's leaving aside the fact that Bush/Cheney had less justification for invading Iraq than Alexander had for invading Persia. Persia actually was a huge, powerful enemy to Greece (and Macedonia) and had shed plenty of Greek blood over the previous few hundred years. How many times has the USA been attacked by Iraq?
Give it up 1st shirt; you are being played for a fool and your "brothers and sisters" are being mercilessly wasted by a regime in Washington that considers them nothing more than cannon fodder, set dressing for "mission accomplished" phot ops, killed or maimed for the greater glory of empire.
well said paul ga and somebody please thank that brilliant come back by jareilly , I see a big change here people were starting to not only read the net to find the truth but you guys are tying to inform the people to. Keep it up and maybe someday even minds like 1st shirt may come to see the truth .
jarielly, alexander didn't have to deal with projectile explosives or the internal combustion engine, both of which make insurgen' a whole lot easier.
This is the issue that I thought you lefties had finally grown a brain on, and now I unfortunately see many of you reverting to your old gun-hating ways. Guns are great, and little, you ARE right, I love my guns! The rifle is god's ultimate gift to the middle classes of the world. With a rifle, no spoiled brat who lives in the lord's manor and has nothing to do all day but swing a sword around can bully me. I can shoot him from a distance, negating his armor, his training, and his position in life. THAT is one of the main reasons we no longer have to bow to our L&M, though some of you seem to be ready to get right back onto the manor-fields.
Hasn't seven years of Bush, and taser story after taser story, illegal immigrant crime, etc etc, TAUGHT YOU ANYTHING????????
Your rights, in reality, mean nothing. The law, in reality, means nothing. The police can kill you and get away with it. The government can arrest you and hide you away.
My rifle, however, fires a very real projectile! No amount of propoganda, no tricks with words or images or any media spin, can change the fact that you are dead when this projectile slams into your brain. And it does not matter who you are, you still die.
Our country runs on checks and balances, and our INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to own firearms is a check on the power of our local, state, and federal governments. Its not an absolute check, but its one that makes repression so much more difficult and expensive then it would be if we were not armed, and could be rounded up by off duty policemen. In america, if the people rise up, we would have to be suppressed by the best (and most expensive) weaponry available.
Little, I actually like a lot of what you have to say. But keep this in mind as well: that joint can't defend you in case the bad guys kick your door down, my rifle can! And you are right guns do NOT cause crime, anymore then pens cause words. Gun freedom is more profound then the freedom to smoke weed, though smoking weed is ok in my book as well!
Support concealed (and open) carry!
Kent, the vietcong defeated one hell of a standing army with nothing but rifles, and certainly the people of the US could do the same if we ever had to. The price would be fearsomely high, but it would be possible, as opposed to impossible if we were unarmed.
Excellent article by James Carroll, and clever rejoinder by copenhagen above. However, I take issue with this passage:
"In most states, there is no law against permit-holders cradling a rifle on the street, or holstering a firearm on a hip, like Wyatt Earp. But since the close of the last frontier, gun display, except in movies, has been culturally taboo."
There is staggering variety, state to state, in both firearms display licensing law and in cultural norms, making all generalization (including mine) hazardous.
But that disclaimer aside, I guarantee you that under current Michigan law, if you walk down main street in broad daylight cradling a rifle, you will be subject to arrest for unlawful brandishing. Similarly, if you sally forth packing a holstered heater on your hip, you will also be vulnerable to prosecution unless you happen to be a certified peace officer (exactly like Wyatt Earp was). And Michigan is a right to carry state, with a colorful and turbulent territorial past.
Mr. Carroll's reference to the frontier slips over the big historical point here: many states (like Michigan) authorize or permit municipalities to legally ban public display of guns in public places. The jolly cowhands and the black hatted would-be bush whackers alike could be compelled to check in their trusty sidearms at the marshal's office, right after they crossed the Dodge City boundary line. Enactment of those local ordinances (not merely some cultural taboo) played a key role in defining the essence of "civilization" in city life, versus what was the normal, expected ettiquette regarding weaponry that was carried out there, beyond the reach of the sheriff's writ.
None of the above of course applies to what you can do within the curtilege of your own dwelling. But I would not casually discount the impact of the long arm of the law in creating good, responsible behavior that has gradually become engrained as more than just some malleable cultural norm.
Bill from Saginaw
seems like it all depends on how helpless and vulnerable you feel, doesn't it? are you feeling helpless and vulnerable? you don't want 'a gun', you want AN ARSENAL. btw,
ever see somebody gut shot? heard them scream? watch somebody's head explode like a melon, somebody you knew? you might want to check into that. that's what guns are all about. when you pick up a gun, it might be a good idea to have a specific purpose for doing it.
my parents were in love with idea of "education" as an "idea". education would make you "smarter, faster, quicker, sharper", very sexy, give you an edge, make you invincible, might even make you a boss someday. but it was never supposed to change you. it was never supposed to change the way you looked at the world or the values/beliefs installed. that was betrayal, that made you the enemy, outcast. we kill outcasts. as ancient as midden heaps. people are the same about guns.
they're in love with the idea. but "it will never change them". it will make them strong, brave, fearless, fill in the blank. all they have seen of violence was their mom getting smacked around or tv or movies. unless, of course, they are among our oppressed in the "no go zones" of major metros. you know the places, you never go there, the freeway is either overhead or doesn't go near. those folks have seen it. constructed american warsaw ghettos as part of a society based on exclusion. for them over the last 40 years it has become life itself. dead children, dead brothers, dead sisters, dead mothers, dead dead dead. price of oligarchy. price of insulated white privilege. survival of the wary and the most brutal (and they always get bagged by somebody more brutal). vilcomin amerika.
pray it doesn't become 'life' for any of ya'll. we really don't want to go there. although i must say that the last 30 years have been the expression of core amerikan values: exclusion, white supremacy, and gender slavery. fdr was a mistake. the pill was a mistake. the right to terminate a pregnancy was a mistake, and the moon shot in '69 was a mistake (told the feudal peasants that we were all one species and there were broader horizons, could not be allowed).
my words are your past. my questions are simple: with whom do you ally? what is survival if you do not survive whole? (F. Herbert Heretics).
Any of you gun enthusiasts out there ever actually shoot a human being? Did you kill him or her? How did you feel about it after? You're full of braggadocio right now. Your gun makes you a real tough guy. Talk to me after you have actually killed someone. Anyone. For any reason. I know some of you, not literally, on this website, but I know some of you. And some of you are just aching for the chance to "draw down" on a human being. Or at least you think you are.
Mine are for sale. One 12 gauge "home defense" shotgun. One Glock 23 .40 caliber. One Glock 26 9mm. One Bushmaster AR15 M4 A3. They disgust me. I hate having them in the house. I can't wait to get rid of them. Why did I buy them? Because at the time I was a foolish idiot. I like to feel that I am less so these days.
Live and let live. Better yet, live and help live. Leave the death dealing to the REAL MEN.
Kids gun each other down, or stab each like in the UK, and it is not the gun or the knife that need concern us. It is the society that is generating this chaos.
I was raised around firearms, and no one I know shot each other, by accident or on purpose. You can take away the guns, knives and any sharp object, and if we operate a society like the one we have, the kids are gonna kill each other.
This sort of liberal hand wringing is just liberals is sad and stupid. Mr Carroll watches too many Bill Cosby seminars.
We lose more people to firearms every 2 to 3 months than we lost on September 11. We are willing to engage in two bloody, destructive, expensive wars to avenge the victims of one horrific day, but unwilling to enact serious, rational legislation to save thousands of lives every year. We are willing to trash every amendment to the Constitution except the sacrosanct Second in the name of security. This is insane.
Deran___I do not know where you live but in our area which is a farming community, quite a number of people have been killed when deer or bird hunting and several kids died handling guns. Also, we have had a number of suicides by gun including my own wife`s nephew. a 12th grader.
I own a rifle and two shotguns which are seldom used except for varmint control, and I believe there are valid reasons to support gun ownership to a point, and also reasons to have strong gun laws in place for those that lack the sense to use them properly.
It seems to me that a concealed weapon is a bigger threat than an open carry as one has no idea who has killing power with concealment, and might do or say something that could get yourself killed or injured by a person with mental problems at the time. One suspicious movement could be your last when you have no idea where the firepower is.
If the NRA could get off their insane worship of guns and work with those who would attempt to have a common sense solution, we might get somplace. With our police forces acting like Rambo and Blackwater hovering around as well as being spied on constantly, we do not dare give up gun ownership.
1st Shirt June 16th, 2008 5:39 pm
Paul_GA writes, "Kent, just remember that the Afghans and Iraqis are facing off against the power of the American State and fighting it to a standstill."
Sorry pal, not sure where you get your information. . . oh I forgot this leftist propaganda site. . . how stupid of me! SLAP! In the mean time my brothers and sisters in uniform (and not) are putting a whooping on muhammad's murderers. GOD Bless our Troops
****************************************************************
You are an embarrassment to Veterans, as a Veteran for Peace, supporter and advocate of IVAW and VVAW we find the racist terms you use offensive, we find war offensive and we would all agree you indeed are offensive. Since Peace is Patriotic the way we honor our Brothers and Sisters is by fighting the Murderer directly, insisting on an end to this illegal occupation NOW and Impeachment NOW, we find it is much more honorable to bring them home ALIVE and not MAIMED, we know it is too late for PTSD and TBI but as Vets go we have big ass shoulders there for the taking....
Where you grew up plays a big part on your opinion of this issue. I was born and raised in Texas. I grew up mostly in the north central corridor of small cities and suburbs and it was fairly cosmopolitan. There weren't many gun racks and fewer guns in the racks seen, but guns permeated the culture. You didn't have to drive to far to find a range, or some good ole boy that didn't mind you taking shooting practice out in his field. I was told about them when I was in grade school and made to understand what they were, how they worked and the damage that they could do. I was given a healthy respect of these tools and their grave use. My father owned rifles that he never used to hunt and rarely went to the range. There were handguns too but they were unloaded and out of reach and perfectly useless for home defense. My mother hated those guns and I suspect that's why they stayed hidden in the backs of closets. The only shooting practice I got was from my neighbor whose dad kept a sawed off shotgun next to the lazy boy. My other friend had a gun caabinet in the front hall and rifles displayed next to deer heads on his fathers wall. Guns are a fact of my life. I live in Chicago now and guns are taboo. No one owns guns and they're feared more than respected. They're only supposed to be in the hands of the police. However thousands of illegal guns are in the hands of violent criminals. on a recent weekend there were nearly 2 dozen shootings nearly all of them young adults and nearly all of them gang related. Now I'm not saying open carry is a good idea for a city like Chicago but I think it might be a bit different on the streets if the neighborhoods held hostage by criminal gun owners had some legal gun owners to level the field. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. My father tells me that Dallas has gotten a lot more polite since they opened up the laws on home defense and concealed carry. He and his wife both have theirs and they go to the range most weekends. When I go home I'm going to get my pistol and bring it back up here. When my son is old enough I'll give him the talk my father gave me.
I hate guns, they are quite easy to use when you're angry, a simple extension of your hand. With my temper and a gun, never would work. I understand the hunters and their viewpoint but I cannot imagine as a rite of passage putting a gun in my daughters hands and saying see that doe, take aim then... That is NOT natural.
I come home at night and there is an area left open across from my house and many a night I've driven by slowly and when the moon is bright there is a doe with her fawn and she never bolts just seems so tranquil. These people around here building their McMansions and whineing because they hit a deer and it just ruined their Mercedes, where are the deer supposed to go? We've protested the Hunts at the Parks for years. this tear they said FU and pulled a Cheney, fenced them in and let the ?sportsmen' have at them. Shameful.
Paul_GA June 16th, 2008 2:18 pm
"If people don't like the 2nd Amendment, why not stop quibbling over what it means and repeal it?"
Because we trust the cops and government less than we trust our neighbors. But you knew that, and unlike you, whom I am sure just likes guns, most of us are scared to death about guys like you who are willing to use them.
So Deran believes that it is as easy to kill a person with a knife or with bear hands than with a gun. Further in his post though, he uses the word "liberal" to describe all who don't agree with him. Ignore the right-wing bigot troll.
1st Shirt, did you read the other thing I wrote in that message you took so much umbrage at?
"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will wind up doing the plowing for those who still have swords."
Guess where I found that? The late Jeff Cooper quoted it in his book "The Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip".
Leftist? Far from it, 1st Shirt; I'm a libertarian and voted for Ron Paul in the Georgia primary. With all due respect, quit pigeon-holing me. My problem is weapons in the hands of the State (which can be, and often are, used in useless, stupid wars), not those in the hands of law-abiding private citizens (which are often used in self-defense, with gratifying results for those of us who believe in self-defense).
So Deran believes that it is as easy to kill a person with a knife or with bear hands than with a gun.
______________________________
Shouldn't it be "bear PAWS"?
Don't feel sorry for the troops in Iraq and Afgan. they are safer than those walking down the street's in America.
Paul_GA
"...we trust the cops and government less than we trust our neighbors. But you knew that, and unlike you, whom I am sure just likes guns, most of us are scared to death about guys like you who are willing to use them."
"Leftist? Far from it, 1st Shirt; I'm a libertarian and voted for Ron Paul in the Georgia primary. With all due respect, quit pigeon-holing me. My problem is weapons in the hands of the State (which can be, and often are, used in useless, stupid wars), not those in the hands of law-abiding private citizens (which are often used in self-defense, with gratifying results for those of us who believe in self-defense)."
Well said Paul.
"The primary reason for the citizens to maintain the right to keap and bear arms is to protect themselves from tyranny in the government." -Thomas Jefferson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin
Turce:
"I cannot imagine as a rite of passage putting a gun in my daughters hands and saying see that doe, take aim then… That is NOT natural."
Actually, it is perfectly natural- this is how we humans sustained ourselves- hunting/farming. The majority of us up until the last 100+ years.
kent shaw:
"Any of you gun enthusiasts out there ever actually shoot a human being? Did you kill him or her? How did you feel about it after? You're full of braggadocio right now. Your gun makes you a real tough guy. Talk to me after you have actually killed someone. Anyone. For any reason. I know some of you, not literally, on this website, but I know some of you. And some of you are just aching for the chance to "draw down" on a human being. Or at least you think you are.
Mine are for sale. One 12 gauge "home defense" shotgun. One Glock 23 .40 caliber. One Glock 26 9mm. One Bushmaster AR15 M4 A3. They disgust me. I hate having them in the house. I can't wait to get rid of them. Why did I buy them? Because at the time I was a foolish idiot. I like to feel that I am less so these days.
Live and let live. Better yet, live and help live. Leave the death dealing to the REAL MEN."
As for your first question- I have been in the Marine Corps for nearly 6 years now with tours to Afghanistan and Iraq. I have defended myself.
As for your rifles, how much do you want for the Bushmaster? Does it have a rail system? If it is cheap enough, I'd consider it (my wife could handle the recoil), but personally I prefer real rifles in 7.62*51mm NATO. 5.56*45mm just does not do the job. I know from experience.
Thank you, Copenhagen.
And Sun827, you're quite right when you say that where one was born and raised plays a large part in how one reacts to firearms, RKBA and self-defense. To that, I can add that being part of a culture which looks well upon those things is about as important. My dad was in the USAF, we moved around the country a lot, and I've now been a "Georgia cracker" for nearly 43 years. In all that time, I've lived around firearms and have a healthy respect for them; I'm a pretty good shot with rifle, handgun and shotgun.
BTW, Kent Shaw: I hope and pray I NEVER have to use MY firearms in self-defense, but I'm also aware that there are some people out there against whom one needs to be armed. So in that case, I remember what Oliver Cromwell said: "Trust in God, but keep your powder dry."
"As for your first question- I have been in the Marine Corps for nearly 6 years now with tours to Afghanistan and Iraq. I have defended myself."
A long reply. Yet, you choose not to answer the question. Why am I not surprised. Keep choking down your guilt. Maybe you WILL be able to avoid suicide.
And why would you put such a weak weapon in your wife's hands? Don't you love her? Do you want to see her outgunned in a fight where she's going to need that girlie weapon? Shame on you, BIG BAD MARINE.
Kent Shaw:
"Yet, you choose not to answer the question. Why am I not surprised. Keep choking down your guilt. Maybe you WILL be able to avoid suicide."
First off, the dead deserve respect from both sides. I don't chose to glorify or sensationalise it. I have defended myself and my brothers, and I feel no guilt, and have never even thought of suicide. Personally I think suicide is a blessing for the species- it weeds out the can't hackers and the weak.
"And why would you put such a weak weapon in your wife's hands? Don't you love her? Do you want to see her outgunned in a fight where she's going to need that girlie weapon? Shame on you, BIG BAD MARINE."
It's called physics- she is not physically capable of handling the recoil of a .308. Nevertheless, a 5.56 is better than a hope and a prayer.
Paul_GA: Good response. I too am a Libertarian, but have swung a number of my views to the left. The issue of guns isn't one of them. I have developed extreme distrust for our government, especially since Bu$h has given himself the ability to declare martial law in the event of an "emergency", in which of course he is the one deciding what exactly constitutes an emergency. He tried to get this power givien to him by Congress, which they denied, so he just took it. Cheney, who when told by a reporter that the vast majority of the American people are opposed to the war in Iraq simply replies "so?", indicates a complete disconnect between our so called "leaders" and us, their employers.
Sun827, I too am from Texas and having lived most of my 50 years in small towns am very familiar with the gun culture here. As was mentioned above, the cops have become our civil "Rambos". I don't know if you are familiar with Williamson County, the county just north of Austin, but I used to live there. While a resident of said county, a thirteen year old mentally retarded boy with a pen knife was shot and killed by a sheriff's deputy, another teen was shot and killed after holding up a convenience store with a water pistol by the sheriff himself, who shot the kid in the back as he was running. Frankly, I don't believe either of these situations warranted the use of deadly force and could have been managed through the use of other methods.
I am a gun owner (no, I don't have an arsenal), and enjoy target shooting. I used to hunt but gave it up when I married as my family doesn't like the meat, and unless used completely there is no reason to take a game animal. (for those opposed to hunting yet still eat meat, venison is far healthier than beef and deer herds do require population management, due in large part to a decrease in natural habitat because of urban sprawl...subdivisions and suburbs. Further, the money spent on hunting licenses is used entirely for the benefit of wildlife, not just "game" animals." I loathe the type of canned hunting such as that of Dick Cheney and hunting caged domesticated birds and believe it should be banned entirely, along with "managed" hunts and the especially heinous hunting by remote control computer and cameras.) I hope with all my heart I NEVER have to fire a weapon at another person for any reason, but if that is the only choice to survive an assult, I believe it better to have the option of defending myself and as such choose to make that choice available to protect myself and/or family.
Those "running" the country today would be considered traitors of the highest degree by the founding fathers they seemingly like to quote so often. They are the Whigs of today, and like the Whigs of Thomas Jefferson's time, seem to believe that the "unitary executive" form of government, complete with the state santioned religion of "Christianity" (their version) is the way the U.S. was intended to be governed. The Consititution is an obstacle for them or as George W. Bu$h put it "just a Goddamned piece of paper", not a guideline for the government of the United States. The arguement is frequently made that an armed populace is no match for the U.S. military if the government truly wanted to take over absolute control, but is there any reason to believe that an armed public is not a deterrant to an attempt at a totalitarian government? That may be a question to be asked of the former residents of Nazi Germany or the current "People's" Republic of China.
copenhagen - if you mistrust the gov so much why are you working for it?
I think for myself. If something really bad ever happens, I feel like I can have more influence for what is right, true, honest, and honorable here than I can elsewhere. We need to make sure honest men and women who stand for what is right like the needle to the pole are in the military. I love the Marine Corps. I am sworn, first and foremost, to protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic. When I swear to do something, I mean it. This is partly why I am arguing for our civil right to keep and bear arms right here. I am in the military to protect our liberty, and our right to keep and bear arms is what protects us from those who would pervert us to tyranny.
Which is why in 6 months I lost 9 friends, and I have yet to lose a friend to violence in the street's of America?
Copenhagen: "I am sworn, first and foremost, to protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic." ... "I am in the military to protect our liberty, and our right to keep and bear arms is what protects us from those who would pervert us to tyranny."
Well, you've been doing a damned poor job of protecting the constitution from domestic enemies, while attacking foreign countries that never fired a shot at the US.
So why haven't you done something to protect the bill of rights which has been decimated by George Bush.
And, you never did answer the question. You have stated, "I have defended myself and my brothers, and I feel no guilt," and apparently I or we are to INFER that you have looked a man in the eye and killed him. Have you? Do you have a confirmed kill, or did you just randomly fire in the direction from which you took fire. Did you look a man in the eye and kill him? Did you? And as far as NEVER having thought about suicide? Outright lie and you know it.
And the topic is "open carry" -- not the use of violence in wartime, however ILLEGAL those wars are, making ALL participants, INCLUDING YOU, war criminals. Open carry within our country, not in a war zone. Killing people within our own country, not within a war zone.
But you will not answer the question. Because if you do you will have to consider the horror of what you have done.
One more thing. By attacking Iraq and Afghanistan you are most assuredly NOT making America safer. All you are doing is pissing off more people, adding to the potential problem of proliferating terrorism.
But honestly? I have great empathy and compassion for you, because you have to live with what you have done, not me.
Wow Kent, you really do think I am in the business of glorifying violence?
Concerning Suicide, I'm glad you know me better than I know myself. Maybe you have thought of it, but like I said, I am stoked everytime somebody kills themselves because it only improves the gene pool. I can truly say I have never thought of it.
As for defending the Constitution, yes, I have put a stop to things I saw which I thought were immoral and intend to do my best to do it here as well. Don't you dare tell me I am doing a damned poor job of it either. I give my 100% every day and try to make sure my Marines continue to think for themselves and remain human beings rather than robots. I like you despise the Patriot act, Gitmo, etc. I also despise gun-control. But hey, it's always easier to take those of us who think for ourselves off to the camps if we aren't armed right? You are setting yourself up for terrible failure. I for one prefer a back up plan. A seatbelt if you will.
I don't have to agree or disagree with the war in Iraq or Afghanistan- at my level, my job is to do what I know to be right each and every day, and make sure that my Marines do the same. Fair enough? Don't hate the messenger buddy.
By the way, I found it funny how you saw fit to remind me what the topic was about, and then do a quick follow up about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. :-D Gotta love it!
I have no need for your empathy of compassion because I have done nothing I regret. On the other hand, one day, when they come to get you and you actively fought to be dehorned/declawed/dehumanized, go quitely, and do not say you were not warned. And no, I will not feel sorry for you.
And still, you do not answer the core question. Have you looked a man in the eye and killed him? You refuse to answer. I can only conclude that you have not. You would be unable to live with yourself otherwise. Somewhere, sometime, somehow the violence must end.
I am quite capable of living with myself thank you very much, however, I refuse to pander to your glorifying of violence. Suffice it to say, I've protected my life with precisely implemented deadly force, and have absolutely zero problem with that. Beyond that, I will not give you the gratification- watch a movie if glorification of violence is what you are after.
Humor me please. Would you like for firearms to cease to exist? Sure, it'd be great if every weapon in the world miraculously disappeared...Burly rapists would have a ball wouldn't they? No? We leave the police armed? How long do you think it will take the police to realize they have us by the sack? Meanwhile, I'll roger up and do my duty. Hopefully you will be lucky enough to live close to an American who took a little extra time to prepare for the inevitable.