I would like for those who visit these boards to brand all critics of Israel and Zionism with the label of "anti-Semite" to justify the attempts to squelch any public discussion of Palestinian issues.

Also, Cohen's explanation is unsatisfactory.

jj

Banned like Common Dreams not addressing the articles of impeachment against G. W. Bush. As of writing this? Great Job!

TurnoffyourTV, a search of CD's archives for the word "impeachment" turns up more than 4500 hits.

Please explain your accusation - or do a better job of expressing it.

jj

I am sort of a newbie on this topic, because there are so many different opinions and lies. So someone with more knowledge please help me out.

But from what I have heard and read over the years it seems that the problem with Israel and Palestine is that, after the war the Jews were given land in Palestine. And since then they have committed some horrible inhuman acts against Palestinians.

Palestinians want all the land back and Jerusalem as the capital. And Israelites want the same.

We back Israel because of the bible and revelations and all that crap. And the average person with a heart, mind and soul, backs Palestine because they did nothing wrong.

Some people try to split it 50/50 and make one state. Some agree to that but says it must be a Jewish State. Others disagree because of the bible part again I think ?

I know I probably sound like a fool, but I can't know everything about all topics so just update me cause this whole Zionist talk is really confusing.

And I really can't understand why the Jews didn't get a part of Germany instead of the "Holy Land"

Thanks for the help,

Everyone has an opinion.
Some we agree with, some we don't. All should be heard.
When we start slamming the doors on change and restrict the voices of dissent, we lose our ability to philosophize.
All it takes is a quick glance at the Israeli / Palestinian affair to realize that whatever "plan" that's in place ISN'T working. It's time for new ideas, better ideas, that might have some positive impact.

The Jews, Zionists, and pro-Israeli forces have really, really taken over the media, corporate establishment and U.S. government and have a virtual stranglehold on the coverage of the Israel/Palestinian conflict in the USA. This is a tragedy for freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

Look at the massive concrete walls that are surrounding numerous Palestinian cities and communities: when is the last time you EVER saw a picture of them in your NY Times? Or in Time Magazine? Or the Economist? Ever read an article critical of this barbaric act in a US newspaper? NO: you never did, and you never will. Why? Because all these mainstream USA media rags do Israel's bidding--and couldn't give a rat's ass about the Palestinian genocide being committed by Israel.

The Zionists cheer with glee every time a professor loses his job for trying to impartially and HONESTLY have discussions on the Palestinian issue on this topic in his class. We are literally, NOW, dealing with a Jew/Arab version of the Commie witch-hunt of the McCarthy era in the 1950s. Dare to question the policies of Israel in the USA? You'll lose your job and be blackballed. It's terrible!

One poster on this thread innocently asks "what is the history of this conflict?" Good question, and a most telling one. He's obviously from the USA: where every effort is made to NOT EDUCATE people on the history of how Israel came about. Why? Because learning that Israel came into being by blatantly stealing land from Palestinians--and committing genocide in the process does not help the Israeli cause. Hence keep Americans in the dark is the implicit plan.

I urge inquiring minds out there reading this website to read up on the facts regarding this decades long conflict. Don't trust what you read in the US media--it's all pro-Zionist propaganda. It's worth mentioning that Noam Chomsky (who is Jewish by the way) strongly sympathizes with the plight of the Palestinians--who have essentially had their land forcibly taken from them by the Zionists working in tandem with the British colonial powers at the end of WWII. But it goes back much earlier: the Balfour Declaration of 1917 is also worth reading about. Google it and bone up on key facts.

It's great that this Coffeehouse finally saw the light and decided to allow this person to do her lecture. It took many folks speaking out, it's worth noting. Well done.

The land was ceded to the zionists illegally since the UN did not approve. They ,Britain and the US, did it anyway. They did this to provide jews a homeland and at the same time give europeans a foothold and an ally in the region. The zionist movement has made it very clear from the beggining that they expected to expand from the ceded land to control an area that includes Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. The aim is to give jews the place in history that they feel they deserve, as a regional power at the level of the great colonialists.

The history of Israel resembles that of the US. A chosen people are to take the land occupied by those not worthy to have it. A land without people for a people without a land. This phrase says it all: neither the American natives nor the arabs of Palestine were considered as actual people but rather as subhuman and not deserving of having the land. Americans and Israelis are of a commkon mentality, that is why they are alleis and feel entitled to rule without opposition and feel they can and should wipe out any opposition. So it goes....

Mr. Olmert, tear down this wall!

And God said unto the people of Israel, "Go forth and drop cluster bombs on the children of Palestine, and blow their innocent little bodies to pieces across the land." And Olmert saw that it was good.

I believe that it would be helpful to separate the word Israeli from Zionist. From what I have read, The Likkud(sp) Party is a Zionist one, much as the GOP is now controlled by the Neocons. Many,if not a majority, of Israelis oppose the policies of the governing party. Sound familiar?
And the genocide just keeps going.

Future.me, its not supose to be understood. The way I understand it, its pretty much what you have in the U.S. The people who have any sort of humanity in them don't have a say in the situation. A corrupt Israeli government, much like ours here. Wealth and or power hungry. And a handful of different radical groups that fight for control of the other less wealthy side. Only they don't actually fight for the other side either. They all have their little strict personal view of how things are, and will kill anyone stuck in between no matter what side your own. Only difference on the one side is, they get their recruits by way of a starved economy from decades of sanctions, bombings, stolen valuable farm lands, etc. This helps provide a decent percentage of people who find themselves with no where else to turn. It keeps the cycle turning. While the only real beneficiary's are higher government officials, and the corporate structure. Just a smaller scale of what we have.

Every time I read an article like this I cannot help but remember all the people who have furiously asserted to me that there is no such entity as "The Lobby," no Zionist control of media or government and that anyone who says there is is an anti-Semite.

Po grandma - I believe there is an element of truth in what you say, but unfortunately Labor is a Zionist as Likud. While there are thousands of Israelis who profess to be for a just settlement and peace (and some peace organizations which are doubtlessly working for this and are excluded from this comment), one has to question their definitions of "just" and "peace." It is also important to remember that the war criminal Ariel Sharon was elected by Israeli citizens in a landslide, Sharon being a man who opposed every peace initiative and whose goal was "settlement" expansion. He was elected by a populace who knew he would be brutal, not work for peace and would expand illegal building and theft of land and resources.

In short, most people who live in Israel are Zionists and most of them couldn't give a good goddamn if their country slaughtered every Palestinian man, woman and child.

Israel should appreciate their Palestinian population. It's probably the only thing that keeps Arab terrorists from nuking them.

Give me a break, you arn't "banned" at all, its just that jews don't want you in a jewish-owned bookstore talking about the destruction of the jewish state.

Forgive us for this, I'm sure I'd be allowed to go to "palestine" and say what i feel, correct?

Lizard, claiming israel wants to take over syria and lebenon as part of a territorial expansion is simply idiotic. Israel's territorial expansion has always been in response to arab aggression directed from this territory. This would of course include the west bank and gaza, both of which were abandoned by their previous owners Jordan and Egypt after they were no longer able to attack israel from these regions.

opel, zionist control of media and government, because one coffeeshop owner won't let this guy speak there? I say good for her, jews don't need to give people forums to call for our genocide, they can do that just as easily here on commondreams!

John, the only reason you want the wall torn down is so the arabs will be better able to kill israeli civilians. Forgive israel, but I don't think they plan to play along.

Ariel_Sharon

The only genocide being committed in the region is by the Israelis whose brazen attempt to exterminate the native population and steal their land is predicated on a deed from noneother than God. It's just that they haven't been able to produce the deed in court that troubles so many people.

Sounds like there is a new McCarthysim afoot. Anyone who dares to say anything against apartheid Israel will be censored, fired, hounded out, banned or imprisoned.

As Zamboni_fahrer correctly points out, of course US history is not going to dwell on the founding of Israel,
which "came into being by blatantly stealing land from the Palestinians -- and committing genocide in the process."

As a couple of other posters pointed out, gee, that sounds sort of familiar . . . which is why you won't find any real history of the founding of the US in US history either . . .

We share the concept of 'manifest destiny' with the Israelis, unfortunately that 'manifest destiny' does not seem to take into consideration anyone else's . . .

How much longer is US currency going to feature the images of dead white men who literally stole an entire continent from the previous inhabitants in the name of God and Progress ?

Sorry, privately owned bookstores reserve the right to do this. I don't agree what they did is right, I wouldn't have done it.

you want change simple in 08 don't vote for anyone who supports war. Time for America to take back America.

Ariel_Sharon

John, the only reason you want the wall torn down is so the arabs will be better able to kill israeli civilians. Forgive israel, but I don't think they plan to play along.

Our great Zionist Provocateur is at it again this day. What of the Sala Shehada massacre, children murdered ages 2 months, 18 months, 3 years, 4 years, 5 years, 6 years, 10 years, 15 and 17 years young. Or the 600 massacre victims of the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian Refugee Camp that lie bloated in the hot sun, the husbands, fathers and brothers of Cite' Sportive never seen again. Yes your moniker must make you proud, that of a liar, mass murderer, war criminal and a liar among liars that murders and hates, sounds much like you.

What is truely interesting about the Israeli form of Manifest Destiny, is that the true-believers may not have constructed the Israeli state on the actual historical Kingdom of Israel.

Because the original versions of the Old Testament (written in ancient Hebrew) don't actually exist, there were many later mistranslations or guesses about what was writeen.

Thus there is very little in the Old Testament that can be trusted when describing or "historically" documenting the ancient kingdom of Israel.

Remember, much of the Old Testament takes place in places like ancient Egypt, today's Jordon, etc.

In fact, a few scholars believe (from Old Testament descriptions) that the ancient Hebrew kingdom was located in what is today Western Saudi Arabia.

This theory evidently struck a nerve. After it was presented, the Saudis bulldozed many of the ancient villages (whose names were Arabic transliterations of the ancient biblical Hebrew place names) and archeological sites in that area.

At present, the area is off-limits. Needless to say, archeologists are not invited.

Can you imagine if the true ancient Israel happened to be located near Islam's holiest sites (or some were located within)?

Walls can lock people inside just as easily as locking them out.

Israel as a Jewish state is a done deal. Zionism led to the state of Israel. To that extent, given it is a fact and legalized by the UN, I am a Zionist.

What is being called Zionism today is simply Israeli expansionism beyond the UN borders towards the achievment of a Greater Israel, which includes territories far beyond what was known as Palestine in 1948. They use terrorism as an excuse, and by their actions create terrorists, a never ending cycle of violence.

They defend themselves by labelling anyone who questions their motives as anti-semitic, and using the holocaust to generate sympathy for their cause. In this regard, I am an anti-Zionist. Not all Jews are Zionist by the latter definition, just those at the right end of the political spectrum.

Here is a brief History of Zionism, as requested, and it's relationship to the NWO as I understand it, at least up to 1948. It is not a Jewish conspiracy, but I believe there is a conspiracy that continues today, and this is behind Globalization and the destruction of America.

The roots of Zionism originated among the Jews of Eastern Europe, but it was more of a concept than a movement, starting sometime around what was then widely expected to be the return of the Jewish Messiah in 1666. In the late 19th century, a belief in British Israelism was spreading, that many British were descended from one of the lost tribes of Israel, and had racial ties with ancient Israelis. This is seems unlikley, but it was out there. The richest British person at the time was Baron Rothschilds who controlled banking in London, and while he had significant financial interests in the oil fields in Russia, this did not amount to control.

It was known that the Middle East contained great quantities of oil. The British Empire used coal to meet it's energy needs but realized they needed better access to the cleaner and more efficient oil, as it's rivals in America and Russia were rich in Oil and were monopolizing the market.

So it was in this context came that the Zionist movement took hold. This Zionist movement was driven by non-Jews who thought having a Jewish state in the area, which at the time was controlled by the Ottoman Turks, had strategic benefits; and monied interests, like Rothschild, thought it a useful tool to expand their financial empires by establishing a state which would be closely allied with Britain. Certainly there were Jews like Herzel that founded the Zionist council in 1897, were true believers based on religious reasons. Another class of Zionists were Christians who believed that the Jews were required to return to Palestine and restablish Israel in order fulfill the biblical prophecies. So it was an alliance of different groups with different objectives. Jews and non-Jews.

Communism also was taking hold at the time, almost in parallel with Zionism, and the Jewish- not Zionist- links with the Bolshevik revolution was to influence Hitlers handling of the Jews in Germany and his occupied territories. More on this later.

The driving force to get Israel in Palestine was politically motivated for the most part. Israel was to be a stepping stone to colonize the Middle East, much like the colonies in the US were used to colonize America and take over territory of the native population. Our justification was the Manifest Destiny. Israel and their supporters believe that Jews are Gods chosen people and were given the land, as outlined in the Old Testament. This is used to justify their actions. An earlier comment touched on this point. So when we condem Israel today, we should take a close look at our own checkered past. They have not done anything close to what we have done.
If anything, they follow in our footsteps, as we follow in the footsteps of the British Empire.

Most Jews at the time saw no need for a Jewish state, and certainly not in such a place as Palestine, which was lacking in resources. Many said America should be considered the New Israel. The New World was looked at as a safe haven for Jews from the beginning. Many of those who sailed in search of the New World were escaping the Inquisition. Indeed, many Hispanics today are descended from families who were Jews and forced to adopt Christianity during the Inquisition. Some estimates put the number as high as 10%. Perhaps that explains our acceptance of illegal immigration.

Some Jewish Zionists proposed Uganda as a more appropriate location than Palestine. But this did not get much support since anti-semitism was at a low ebb. Life was good in the 19th century and early 20th century for Jews, at least relative to the hard times of previous centuries. An exception to this was in Russia, which had the worlds largest Jewish population. After Czar Alexander II was assasinated in 1881, Alexander III took over, and life became hard for the Jews due to one of the assassins was Jewish (Lenins brother was also involved), and their were pogroms and then the May Laws. About 1.8 million Jews from Russia immigrated to the US between 1880 and 1928. But others turned to Zionism and 45,000 ended up in Palestine.

I believe it to be possible that the Bolshevik revolution and Zionist movements, backed as they were by some of the same players, were part of a conspiracy relating to the NWO, as both of these movements were critical to developments leading to WW II that had only 2 winners, Communism and Zionism. Cecil Rhodes may have been the originator of the conspiracy that was handed down in his will after his death in 1902.

From wikipedia

"Rhodes wanted to expand the British Empire because he believed that the Anglo-Saxon race was destined to greatness. In his last will and testament, Rhodes said of the British, "I contend that we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race." He wanted to make the British Empire a superpower in which all of the white countries in the empire, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Cape Colony, would be represented in the British Parliament. Rhodes included Americans in the Rhodes scholarships and said that he wanted to breed an American elite of philosopher-kings who would have the USA rejoin the British Empire"

Back to Zionism. For many years, the NY and London Jewish communities had not much interest in the Zionist movement. In fact, many felt that Zionism was dangerous to the Jewish people as it could be used by non-Jews to question their loyalty to the country they resided in. But Rothschild had money and helped finance the purchase of land in Palestine early in the 20th century and assist Jewish immigration.

In 1908, there were 80,000 Jews and 400-500,000 Arabs (Muslim and Christian). This percentage of about 13% stayed constant until 1922 when the overall population grew to 752,000.

In 1917 during WW I, the British issued the Balfour Declaration to Lord Rothschild formalizing their commitment to a Jewish homeland in Palestine. There are many theories as to why, since anti-semitism and the holocaust were not issues at that time. I believe it is related to getting the US into the war on Britains side. In 1916 Wilson ran on a platform to keep the US out of the war since it was perhaps the most absurd war ever fought. A British victory however would mean the end of the Ottoman Empire and allow the British to take control of Palestine, and Rothschild agents in the US were able to swing public and government sentiment to the British side and support US entry. In 1917 we entered the war and ensured WW II with a victory that gave rise to the Versailles Treaty, and that gave us Hitler.

So once the British got control of Palestine under the British Mandate, Jewish immigration was allowed to increase, and anti-semitism started to rear it's ugly head in Europe and to some extent in the US. Some speculated that it was the Zionists themselves fueling the sentiment. My theory is the Rhodes-Milner Round Table Group, established in 1909 by The Society of the Elect (set up by Rhodes in 1891) was behind it. The Round Table Groups mission was to establish Federal World Government, based on the unification of the British Empire and the US, and in 1920 they established the RIIA in Britain and in 1921 the US branch known as the CFR to facilitate this objective. Zionism was to be an important tool to accomplish world government. Alfred Milner drafted the Balfour Declaration, another link to Zionism as a tool to world government.

One document that was said to have been a forgery by the Russian Czar to fuel anti-semitism in Russia was inflammatory, called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It got translated to English and made the rounds in the US and Europe. And there was a English translation of the Talmud, published in London, that caused concerns among those who read it. Nevertheless, whether they were forgeries or not, anti-semitism was real, manufactured or not, and there was more immigration to Palestine such that the population of Palestine by 1947 was increased to 31% (1,955,000 total, 650,000 Jews).

This number could have been a lot higher but the British restricted immigration starting from 1936 due to Arab resistance to the changing demographics. The US also had locked down immigration at this unfortunate time in general, and Jews were restricted in numbers from 1924 (3 years after the CFR being formed).

Perhaps it is a coincidence but during a time when it was essential to get the Jews out of Europe, given that Hitler was in power and having read Mein Kampf, you have to wonder. FDR even said to have turned back ships in US harbours filled with Jewish refugees. Of course, the depression and unemployment made immigration a sensitive issue, so there was likely a political reason behind the decision and not so much anti-semitism.

So then we come to 1948. The Holocaust was the essential event that turned the Zionist idea of the Jewish people having their own state in Palestine a reality. The Palestinians argued to keep Palestine intact and the government would be a secular one of including Jews, Christians and Muslims. The Zionists favoured partition. So it was partitioned, with a divided Jerusalem that was considered an international city (and not the capitol of Israel as Obama suggested).

The Palestinians could not accept it, and did not. Imagine for example living in California and being told the UN had decided to give back California to Mexico. Mexico is as entitled to California and Israel is to Palestine, perhaps even more so, yet I hardly think this would go down well for anyone except the illegal immigrants.

In fact, the Zionists did not really accept the UN plan. They just pretended to. The main issue they had was that their territory had 650,000 Jews and 850,000 Palestinians. How can this be considered a "Jewish" state?. So accrding to Illan Pappe, a Jew, they had Plan Dalet to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians and reduce the population(this is explained in detail in his book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine). In the end, only 160,000 Palestinians were left in Israel. As a result of the clashes on the other side of the border, Israel got more territory. The Palestinian territory was not a state, the people having never accepted the UN mandate, and so they ended up getting occupied by Jordan. The displaced Palestinians ended up as refugees, some escaping to other countries, others remaining on the West Banks/Gaza.

The rest is history, which history you believe is up to you. Some might say that this is total BS, since the British Empire was dismantled after WW II. To them I say that Cecil Rhodes mission was completed. The US has become part of the British Empire which lives on through us. The ruling elite reside in London, and their agents are in the US. Those who serve the Queen well get knighted. We are in fact a crypto Commonwealth nation.
The former colony is returning dividneds. We fight the wars for Britain, enforce their Free Trade policies, suffer the economic consequences of maintaining their empire. The Federal World Government is now a reality. They just have not told us yet. Thats what the police state apparatus is all about, in case we do not take to it kindly, they will use da boot.

"I say good for her, jews don't need to give people forums to call for our genocide, they can do that just as easily here on commondreams"!

Please tell me how calling for a one state solution is calling for genocide?

lizard wrote:

"The zionist movement has made it very clear from the beggining that they expected to expand from the ceded land to control an area that includes Jordan, Syria and Lebanon."

At best this is ignorance.

MiMiCc pretty well covers it in her/his post, but the short short story is that the drive for a Greater Israel came in with people who had little to do with establishing the fact of the Israli state.

The fuse for Ultimate War was lit with the murder of I. Rabin --

Thanks so much for the quick history lesson on Zionism,MimiCcs. I for one always make a distinction between real Jewish culture (religious customs, music, cuisine, traditions) which are so enriching to our own American culture and the tragedy of "Zionist Israel". I am also a great fan of German culture (Wagner, Beethoven, Schiller, Einstein) but that doesn't mean that I must automatically be a Nazi fan. Why is it so hard for Americans to separate these things. We need to go ahead and call Israels illegal occupation of Palestine what it is- genocide. That is not "anti-semitic" any more than condemning the Nazis would be "anti-German." I think the "one secular democratic state" solution is the logical choice. Why should the US be supporting ANY theocracy?

The amount of hate towards Jews here on CD's is actually quite disturbing. To clump all Jews together as "Zionists" is sort of like clumping all Americans together as "Neo-Cons hell bent on destroying the world". The charge that "Jews run America" is preposterous. Check the names of the Fortune 500 CEO's and you'll be hard pressed to find more than a dozen Jews among them. Some may argue that Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, the Waltons, the Rockefellers, etc. are actually Jews in which case you're paranoid, racist and extremely delusional.
The main problem here is when people start ranting about "Jews running the world", it reduces the legitimacy of intelligent debate about the negative impact AIPAC has on U.S. foreign policy or the mistreatment of Palestinians in general. It's counterproductive when people use trash talk to support or discredit an argument.

Very good summary by MiMiCcS

On the topic: It is not new for Americans to suffocate opposing opinions when it comes to Israel. The phrase "Never again" first used by Israel and now US has had many wrong results. Both governments use historical evidence to instill fear into its populations and create support for its ill policies. Genuine good hearted people tend to loose sanity when it comes to matters of life/death and religion. This has been proved time and again in history and we see it happen everyday in Israel where even though the people want peace can not accept radical diversion from Israel's failed policies for 60 years.

Israel started off with a vision to create a state for JEWS with jewish majority which was not feasible then nor is it now. India-Pakistan were also partitioned based on religious majorities which was in itself a blood affair. But the feasibility of that exchange was that people changing sides were LOCAL to the land. The Israeli vision was one created out of fear of reverting to the same old order of jewish persecution and hence resorted to the same tactics that were used against them by anti-semites and it continues to this very day. It is eerily similar to what pilgrims did in the US. They wanted freedom from persecution and in order to exercise it indulged in persecution of the locals.

For me, the core issue is the acceptance by Israelis and Americans that the Palestinians were wronged. Every peace negotiation between the two sides fails because of this phrase, "Israel will have to compromise more than it can afford/wants!" If one assumes that a forcefully occupied land is your RIGHT then you will not compromise based on morality. Then there is the religious backing for all such claims and a logical discussion loses value in the background of fanaticism and blind faith. Israel can not achieve its goals and also maintain a moral high ground. Any action which is carried out with force against a resisting people loses moral credibility. So it might be a victory for such imperialist Zionists to have created one of the more powerful states in the world, Israel will always be remembered in history as a state which was created because of holocaust and turned around to execute another one!

>>TheLorax - Everyone has an opinion.
Some we agree with, some we don't. All should be heard.<<

That is not the prevailing attitude here Lorax and not the attitude of many of *your* postings. Anytime anyone mentions that something is not accurate and designed to attack Israel. They get pummeled here. Or reminding posters that telling someone to "get your nose fixed" or responding to being asked if they were a jew stating "thank GOD no!" is anti-semetic. That gets them called names as well. The level of debate here regarding Israel is in the toilet.

Real progressives actually practice what you post, that all sides deserve a hearing and that debate is positive. However on CD, there is a cabal of anti-semites who couch all their legitimate criticism of Israel in vile, hateful language. That is anti-semitism pure and simple and it does NOT reflect the position of true progressives or liberals.

When you call someone "hook-nosed" or Khazar or thank God that you aren't a jew, that is anti-semitism and sounds just like Pat Robertson talking about gays or lesbians. If you want to sound like a bunch of childish Repblicans, do so, but don't expect adults to care what you have to say.

alexnosal, please provide some examples of this ". . . hate toward Jews here on CD's (sic) . . . ."

jj

Goose2: "or responding to being asked if they were a jew stating "thank GOD no!" is anti-semetic."

Why is this anti-semitic? Jews face anti-semitism, apparently every day. Why would I want that for myself?

" ... or thank God that you aren't a jew, that is anti-semitism and sounds just like Pat Robertson talking about gays or lesbians."

Thank God I'm not gay or lesbian. My brother was gay. I would not want to face what he had to go through on a daily basis. I loved him. But thank god I was born straight. I could not have endured as he did.

Would it have been anti-semitic to condemn the actions of the Stern Gang or Irgun? How about the massacres by Israelis at Shatila and Sabra? Would I be anti-semitic if I condemned those actions? What about the intentional attack on the USS Liberty? I condemn that action. Does that make me anti-semitic? What about the constant Israeli spying inside the United States? Must I accept that in order to avoid being called an anti-semite? Some Jews, particularly Zionists, are vicious genocidal murderers, some are not. Some Americans are vicious genocidal murderers, some are not. Am I both anti-semitic AND anti-american now?

To Kent Shaw - yes, you are both anti-semitic AND anti-american.

I agree with alexnosal. The amount of hate towards Jews here on CD is very disturbing.

Kent Shaw is neither anti-Semitic nor anti-American. Why do folks like dmia automatically and unthinkingly play the tired anti-Semite card as soon as Israeli racism, genocide, or hypocrisy is discussed? In any case, the article by Mr. Makdisi was not about Palestine but about the danger to American life posed by mindless Israel-defenders.

Night, who is calling any specific person on here an anti-semite? I've seen some on CD, but by and large you guys are just niave, moreso then racist against jews. Kent is no real jew-hater, but he, like the rest of you, SUPPORTS real jew-haters. So what, in a practical sense, is the difference?

Ann: Genocide? That's sheer idiocy. Where is the genocide? The only genocide here is what the palestinians and their arab allies tried to do to jews in 1948, and what they are trying to do now. Israel going after terrorist groups and setting up checkpoints is not genocide. Israel is furthermore not a theocracy, as jewish law does not play a major part in the secular government. If there ever is a "palestine", however, you best believe it would be a REAL theocracy!

Rick, learn something about arab culture and about islam, and you'll know why the "one state solution" is in fact genocide, as jews in the country would likely be slaughtered as soon as it could be done. Barring that, they would be enslaved, with women facing sexual slavery. Yes, this is all in the koran. A "captive woman" of muslims is eligable for rape under islamic law. And yes, any jew in "palestine" would be considered "captive". Arabs are culturally unable to live around other people. They can't do it in France and the UK, why would they do it in the middle east?

Turce, actually, the massacres you names were done be lebonese christians, they blamed on jews by arab cowards and their allies. Pathetic... You can't beat the christians, so just blame the jews!

Goose, don't waste your breath with these sorts of arguments. NONE of these people are progressive, unless you want to tell me how honor killing and the oppression of women is "progressive".

Ariel_Sharon: What are the Israelis going to do when Arabs/Palestinians outnumber Jews in the areas they control? They'll be in same position the British were in in India or whites were in in South Africa, a minority attempting to control a majority, and in the long run that's untenable, barring some extreme measures that would lead non-Jews to leave Israel. Your attitudes towards Muslims seem to mirror those that many segregation-era southern whites had towards blacks, so maybe mass relocation or rule by force is your solution. Whatever, but you should understand that, given the history of race relations in this country, a lot of Americans would have problems with their tax dollars supporting a government that would do such things.

Lord, the comparison to southern whites is far more accurate if put on the palestinians. THEY are FAR less tolerant of homosexuals, women, minorities of any kind, then israel. Israel is one of the top countries in the world regarding the integration of women into the highest levels of government, not to mention the treatment of homosexuals. The palestinians and the arab culture they represent is far more interested in machismo, domination, and cultural hegemony then israel, and I don't see why none of you can see this.

Its not the same thing as british in india, since the british can always go back to the UK. Where can the jews go? To the ocean! Israelis have no choice but to fight, and until you understand this, you don't really understand the conflict.

I'll admit that Islamic countries, Turkey notwithstanding, are hardly bastions of enlightenment. As far as the comparision with India/South Africa, it's true that while there's no other Israel for the Jews to go to, the basic dynamic of a minority attempting to rule over a majority will remain. And yes, I understand that to maintain the status quo, you have to fight. But for how long? The world is changing. As the world demand for oil increases, so does the leverage and power of the Arab nations and Iran. The U.S. is changing too. By 2050 non-hispanic whites will be a minority is this country. Will the new majority still identify with Israel as the sole western democracy in that region, or will a multicultural America sympathize with the Palestinians, much in the way post-civil rights era Americans sympathized with blacks in South Africa? I'm not so arrogant as to think there's an easy answer to the situation, what with two groups laying claim to the same piece of land and both are unable/unwlling to see the compromises and make the kind of gestures that would make sharing it possible, but what kind of homeland will you have if you have to adopt the measures necessary to control an angry, resentful population larger than your own?

Israel does not have a right to exist on Palestinian lands nor does it have the right to severely persecute the Palestinians. Of course .. the moment you say that you become anti-semite ... well so be it.

Kent Shaw is absolutely right on many different levels.

"India-Pakistan were also partitioned based on religious majorities which was in itself a blood affair."

Well Pakistan is kinda like Israel in that its not necessarily secular ... its a religious state and the state is defined by its islamism like how Israel is defined by being jewish, while India is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious secular entity.
Yes ... the India-Pakistan partition was a blood affair which never should have happened at all.

I'd like to point out that four Muslim countries had women as Presidents or Prime Ministers unlike the USA (not that I was for Hillary mind you and I hope we get our act together one day and elect a woman for President). Israel even had Golda Mier so that's one more than us. Besides Muslim nations which include over 60 nations are really diverse when it comes to women's issues Saudi Arabia things are horrible for women but Malyasia, Tunisia, and Turkey women are doing well overall. Iran has more women then men enrolled in colleges. Muslims tend to be very critical of the Saudi and Iranian treatment of women by the way. As usual someone lumps Muslim countries all together and over 1 billion people on this planet and comes up with tired stereotypes on CD. Women's oppression is universal people jeezzz get over yourselves and stop this tired old colonial argument. As a woman I'm sick of it frankly.

Secondly, most Israeli women are doing well but the way orthodox women are treated in Israel is discriminatory. So that argument doesn't fly Ariel Sharon. Why is it whenever Israel is criticized there is always someone screaming how the Muslims are worse. Obviously you all can't take the constructive criticism if you are pointing the blame elsewhere. Its getting old.

Here's a good example Israeli Orthodox women at the back of the bus from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6584661.stm

Ariel-Sharon --"Its not the same thing as british in india, since the british can always go back to the UK. Where can the jews go? To the ocean! Israelis have no choice but to fight, and until you understand this, you don't really understand the conflict."

Are you for real ? So you are essentially making an argument for imperialism ? The comparison with the British in India to the Jews in Palestine is accurate to the extent that they were/are both occupying powers that committed horrific atrocities on the local native population so as to claim their land ... you could say the same about the British in America as well.

To put forth the argument that one occupying power had a fall back strategy whereas the other doesnt and we are somehow supposed to sympathize with the occupying jewish power is an ass-backwards argument and frankly i dont know why im wasting my time typing this shit ...

I live in Buffalo, NY, where I am a member of a local antiwar organization. We have been condemned by the local Zionist community for our opposition to the occupation by Israel of the Occupied Territories. To understand the nature of their objections, here is a link from the Scholars for Peace in the Middle East

http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=1893

Now the local Zionist community are screaming blue murder for us inviting the Corries to town this fall. In case you did not know who they are, they are the parents of Rachel Corrie, the American woman who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer while protesting against the demolition of a Palestinian home in Gaza strip.

Unsurprisingly, they are accusing of anti Semitism and doing what they can to persuade the local university to not allow the Corries to come over.

>>Ariel_Sharon -

I can't believe how ignorant you are to claim that Muslims are culturally unable to integrate into societies. First, let me remind you that in Islam, it is forbidden to kill "People of the Book". This include Jews and Christians. Please, show me exactly where it allows the rape of slaves. It allows marriage to slaves who have converted to Islam. All sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Secondly, I might remind you that Bhutto rose to the rank of PM in an Islamic state. Get facts straight

Future.me June 10th, 2008 2:23 pm

I am sort of a newbie on this topic, because there are so many different opinions and lies. So someone with more knowledge please help me out.

Without getting long and wordy as many on this site often do, you seem to have as good a grasp on the situation as anyone else and more than the average TV watching Joe. This is an informative site but most of the bloggers pontificate enough to start their own blog.