Ariel,

In terms of Blackwater, see the previous post.

In the past, our ships were vunerable to small boat attack. That is not true anymore, at least not when they are under way. Port security, particularly in foreign ports still leaves a lot to be desired.

During the Iran/Iraq war when we were still buddies with Sadaam, we were escorting re-flagged (to US) Kuwaiti and Saudi tankers (called Operation Ernest Will) and the Iranians would attack in Swedish built speedboats called Boghammers. We were really at a loss as to how to combat these things. Difficult to impossible to hit with 5" gun or missles. The 3"/76 Oto Melara gun on the Perrys was better but there weren't many around. So we grabbed every .50 cal machine gun we could lay our hands on, welded-up mounts, and sandbagged around them for protection. We also started bringing on Marine Cobras with their chain guns and rocket pods and found them to be very effective.

The Navy in their infinite wisdom forgot and it all had to be reinvented after Iraq War II and the Cole. They had been doing some research though and many ships now have a number of 25mm chain guns and the Vulcan/Phalanx 20mm gatling gun system has be reprogrammed to engage surface targets. Entering the Gulf, even a lightly armed ship like an auxilliary oiler will have two Vulcans, five or six .50 cals., and a 40mm grenade launcher or two (brutal at close quarter firing fleschettes).

Cockroach,

Since when did this administration need a reason, paricularly a good one, for throwing money at contractors whose owners support them politically and with campaign finance. Our SEAL teams are perfectly capable of the mission and probably need Blacwater's help like they need a hole in an airtank. But again, I ask, what difference does that make? You know perfectly well the modus operendi of this administration. Reward loyalty with power and money and send your attack dogs at anyone you can't control.

To "kendpotter" (June 6th, 2008 @11:26 am): I am frankly lost as to whatever point you were trying to make. You stated in your post that the " (the) point is that these sailors are being trained to retake a merchant vessel or private yacht that has been seized by pirates. This is hardly new – sailors of one nation or another have been doing this only for the last couple of millennia". Great, so I take it that your point is that the idea of sailors (marines, I believe would be the proper description) retaking vessels is a naval activity that predates the Greeks and their Triremes. So again, why is it that the most advanced navy in world history needs to contract with a sorry-assed (and land-based) company of mercenaries in order to learn how to do it? Is that not what the SEALS are trained to do? Is that not what the Marines are trained to do? Is that not even what the Coast Guard is trained to do? When did the U.S. Navy become so lost in its capability that it needs to hire mercenaries to teach it what it (and most every other advanced navy) apparently already knows what to do?

Report: Blackwater buys Brazilian-made fighter plane
USAToday
06/01/2008

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-06-01-blackwater-brazlian-fighter-plane_N.htm?loc=interstitial...

SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) — A subsidiary of U.S. military security contractor Blackwater Worldwide has purchased a fighter plane from the Brazilian aviation company Embraer, a Brazilian newspaper reported Sunday.

The 314-B1 Super Tucano propeller-driven fighter — the same used by the Brazilian military — was bought for $4.5 million and delivered to EP Aviation at the end of February, according to the Estado de S. Paulo newspaper.

The report included the plane's registration number with the U.S. Federal Aviation Agency, and the FAA website confirmed it is registered by EP Aviation.

It was not clear if it was Embraer's first sale of a military-style aircraft to a private company. EP Aviation has 33 planes and helicopters registered with the FAA, according to the agency's website, only one of which is from Embraer.

Officials with Brazil's government and Embraer declined to comment on the Estado report. Phone calls to Blackwater were not returned.

The sale was apparently approved, the Estado report noted, by Brazil's president in a deal negotiated with the U.S. government.

Brazilian law prohibits the sale of arms to companies or for use in existing conflicts.

The newspaper reported that Blackwater president Gary Jackson said the plane would be used for training.

The plane sold to EP Aviation did not include the two .50-caliber machine guns normally attached to the wings.

Blackwater, the largest private security company in the world, has been under scrutiny as a U.S. federal grand jury investigates its involvement in the shooting deaths of 17 Iraqi civilians. Blackwater also is under investigation for possible weapons smuggling allegations — violations the company denies.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-06-01-blackwater-brazlian-fighter-plane_N.htm?loc=interstitial...

Kend, our ships are actually very vulnerable to precisely this sort of attack. Namely, a lot of small speedboats carrying suicidal terrorists.

I don't see how this fact is inherently pro or anti blackwater though...

ODOCO; DO YOU WEAR YOUR KKK HOOD WITH A SWASTICA EMBLEM AROUND THE HOUSE TOO? YOU ARE JUST ANOTHER A-HOLE REPUGNICAN. PERHAPS YOU MIGHT BE WELL ADVISED TO WATCH JOHN,(I RATTED OUT MY FELLOW NAVAL COMPATRIOTS) McCAIN AS HE TRIES TO GET THE AIPAC (JEWISH) VOTES ESPECIALLY IN FLORIDA. BESAME MI TOUCHUS!!!!!

My house is approximately 20 minutes from the Blackwater facility in Moyock, NC. As far as I'm concerned, I feel as if an American version of Hezbollah is sitting at my doorstep waiting for the word to round up alleged "anti-American" citizens for incarceration in Bush's covert prison system. God help them when they come to my neighborhood.....

Looks like it's up to the good people of San Diego to overrun the Blackwater complex and root out the whole terrorist cell.

tobiasaurusrex
"To Blackwater shill #1, kendpotter:"
Please feel free to go fuck yourself.

"You're saying our modern, armed naval ships are as helpless as an unarmed civilian shipping liner?"
Do you possess the slightest trace of reading comprehension? I said the pirates capture merchant vessels and the Navy (ours and others) have to get them back. You should be embarassed.

"When martial law goes down, it won't be the National Guard standing on the corners with machine guns. It will be unaccountable Blackwater goons."

Excellent! I would find it much easier (in terms of personal angst, not marksmanship) to put a 30-06 round through one of their necks than a guardsman.

Sorry about posting twice. The site gave me a database error message that indicated that the first post didn't make it.

Okay, obviously I was being too subtle in my previous post. The Lorax is quite correct. Navies do not practice boarding tactics as a method to take another naval vessel and I never said so. I have seen a 25mm chain gun in action. Anyone with the common sense God (Gaia, Buddha, your higher-power, serendipity, whatever) gave a piss-ant (but apparently not a cockroach) would understand this. Port security on the other hand is more problematic, as the USS Cole demonstrated.

The point is that these sailors are being trained to retake a merchant vessel or private yacht that has been seized by pirates. This is hardly new – sailors of one nation or another have been doing this only for the last couple of millennia. Piracy is still endemic around the Horn of Africa as I believed the posters here were aware. Perhaps I meted out too much credit.

Apparently, I was too subtle in my previous post. Nobody, with common sense that God (Giaia, Bhudda, your higher-power, or serendipity) gave a piss-ant (or a cockroach), could possibly believe that boarding tactics are still used in warfare between rival navies. The Lorax is quite correct in that these tactics would be suicidal. Anyone here ever see what a 25mm chain gun can do to a small boat filled with men? Port security is more problematic as the attack on the Cole shows.

These sailors are being trained to combat piracy - to retake a merchant vessel that has been taken by pirates - not to assault naval vessels. This is an endemic problem around the Horn of Africa and one of the few legitimate uses of military force. I had somehow thought that the posters here were not your average, insular, if-it-doesn't-happen-here-than-who-cares Americans and might have been aware of the situation. Perhaps I was meting out too much credit.

Czechs are hunger striking against US radar bases on their soil:
http://www.worldwar3report.com/node/5553

Perhaps this would be effective tactic to generate awareness and opposition to Blackwater?

When martial law goes down, it won't be the National Guard standing on the corners with machine guns. It will be unaccountable Blackwater goons. Good luck, America!

I wasn't going to post anything, because it has already been written. However, this is so ridiculus while at the same time very curious, that our own US Navy has hired former military personel to do the job of training the US Navy, that I too must get out these words.

What has changed in the past 230 some years that we now need to have a so called private company train our Naval forces? Is it because these "Christian soldiers" haven't adequetly infiltrated the Navy, as they have done in the Army and Marines?

There's the old saw that the "country which governs best, governs the least." I'm so sick of the Grover Norhquists of our time who want to shrink government so much that it can be drowned in a bathtub. But we aren't getting that. What we are getting is a privatized government that is not only bigger and far more expensive and less efficient, but also not even a government. What we are getting is groups of people accountable to nobody. That's not government. That's the prehistoric model of might makes right.

And we have been witnessing this with the Writ of Habeus Corpus being rendered all but obsolete. The Possee Comitatus Act being eluded through other means. The First and Fourth Amendments seriously undermined.

President Bush has sure taken our society back to the bush. Technologically, we are certainly far advanced. But as a society, we have become more like the ancient hunter-gatherer world which existed before goverment was created so as to allow a group of egotistical people by nature to form communities where all were expected to follow agreed upon rules established by the community, so that we might all learn to live together.

To be honest, religion hasn't changed a bit and the vast majority of the people haven't advanced spiritually at all.

Which institution, the military or the church, swallows the kapitalist koolaid more enthusiastically?

.

http://www.libertyforlife.com/jail-police/us-concentration_camp-locations.htm

Where do you live?
44 States listed…

http://www.libertyforlife.com/jail-police/us_concentration_camps.htm

.

.

"TheLorax" (June 5th, 2008 @ 9:59 am) makes a very good set of points. Just how the hell is an "insurgent" supposed to attack a U.S. Naval ship at sea? It would not, and could not happen if the crewmen were simply doing their jobs, including keeping proper lookouts. No, this one smells of something far more insidious, and it is in keeping with the slimy way that Blackwater operates that they would try to hide their presence, while installing themselves amongst the locals (who quite understandably detest them). However, my best chuckle came from reading "kendpotter" (June 5th, 2008 @ 6:38 pm). Tell us kendpotter, how many U.S. Navy ships have Somali pirates hijacked?For that matter, how many U.S. Navy ships have been hijacked by pirates, in all the time that the U.S. Navy has existed? This is absolute nonsense, and it is enabled by the fools who see al Qaeda hiding under every bed (I used to believe in the bogey man too, but then I grew up). If the U.S. Navy is incapable of training its own sailors on how to protect its ships (this being the same U.S. Navy that trains the SEALS) then we shouldn't have a navy. However, the idea of hiring this mercenary band of unprincipled, uncontrolled, unaccountable and dishonorable thugs and hacks to do the job for the navy, while they screw the U.S. taxpayer, is unconsionable. Blackwater is a cancer that has metastasized into the military-industrial complex; it is the "corporatization" of war, and it needs to be stopped. If we need to have war, we need the psycopathic freaks of our armed forces to conduct it, and not the psycopathic freaks of Blackwater.

kendpotter -
Sorry but there is a huge difference between a combatant naval vessel and a cargo ship. The cargo ship can move at about 12 knots maximum. The larger ones only have a crew of 14 and they can't maneuver well at all. They don't have .50 cal machine gun mounts 360 degrees around the ship, nor sophisticated radar systems. You are comparing steak to spam. Please come up with a realistic comparison.

.

Google, Jeremy Scahill...

All you want to know about Blackwater this man has written. Read his book.
It is now coming out in paperback with 100 more pages of updating.

Don't wait google it now...

.

From an economic standpoint this doesn't make sense. We can't have our own military doing the training? What does Blackwater know that our own intelligence doesn't know? It seems like a very expensive undertaking. All of this privatization just gives us a "middleman" who needs to make money. And does with a little help from his friends.

Consider this folks. If the U.S. Navy has "Prison Ships" on the drawing board, to be used for sundry reasons, both internationally and domestically, then it makes perfect sense for a new 21st century "School of The America"s outfit like Blackwater to be the new go-to guys to get the job done.

My fear is that if Obama is elected president hw will do nothing, or already is incapable of doing anything, to stop military contractors from more and more assuming the role of mercenaries for domestic and international issues. "Obama, are you listening?"

Since when do "public interest" and Blackwater have anything to do with each other.
Blackwater is a loose cannon, responsible to no one and its only interest is itself.
It is fleecing tax payers at a criminal level and creating a whole new generation of terrorists by abusing its power.
Not only should this project not go forward, under the laws governing military contractors it should be forbidden to bid or receive any contracts.

To Blackwater shill #1, kendpotter:
You're saying our modern, armed naval ships are as helpless as an unarmed civilian shipping liner? If that's so, we shouldn't even try. However, despite the current lack of Blackwater Worldwide training, the US Navy has already, successfuly freed several of the ships you speak about. So then, why do they need training from America's al Qaida (a reference to the CIA's other terrorist pet organization), a.k.a. Blackwater?

To Blackwater shill #2, Ariel_Sharon:
One, your post-name is that of a man who's been wanted for decades by the World Court for mass murder, so no surprise that you support Blackwater.
Two, the only thing that Blackwater does a better job at is stealing tax payer money from US citizens; murdering the indigenous people that we as a nation are claiming to be liberating, while purpetuating hostilities; putting the underpaid, under equipped US servicemen in greater danger through fomenting hatred of the US, and stealing the money that should fund the Constitutional soldiers; and pressuring US leaders into allowing the Blackwater terrorist organization to flourish and reap heinous amounts of money to do exactly that which the "War on Terror" is supposed to be working against.

To the sane:
Attack the US government, they fund and harbor international terrorists!
Attack with letters, phone calls, emails, votes. As ex-Navy SEAL and former Governor Jesse Ventura says, demand a "No Confidence" selection on all ballots from local to federal levels, so that the corporate puppet leaders can't keep getting into offices. Demand a democracy that actually represents the will of the people and follows it's own laws, not one that says, "The Constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper!" and that continues to enact public policies and international wars that have no actual public support and that violate domestic and international laws.
Demand that Bush and Cheney be deposed, before they add Iran to the list of victims of US war crimes.

Reclaim our nation from those who purpetuate crimes against humanity.

What I find so totally unbelievable about this is that Blackwater is made up of retired military personnel. These people learned how to do this shit when they were in the military so why are they instructing sailors how to defend there ships? Don`t these guys learn all this in boot camp. Something is rotten in Denmark or should I say San Diego.

BLACKBALL BLACKWATER

terrem, what;s the power? They are training US navy personnel, and as such are employed by the navy. I don't see the power here.

I think you bring up a better point, though, which is that this is probably just a way for that Prince guy to get rich, and scratch the back by hooking up ex military guys with jobs. This is another problem that could be fixed with proper leadership.

Up in outer space on this one? I don't think so. Putting this kind of power into private hands is dangerous to say the least. As others have pointed out, the US military trained these people in the first place! What the hell are they going to teach the military now, some undiscovered secret tactic they didn't know about? It's just another corporate favor so we the people can pay triple for the services that the military used to provide.

Uncle, because these guys do a better job of it.

Sorry lefties, but this is another red herring. Blackwater is only as bad as those who deploy them, and will do only what they are allowed and instructed to do. In many situations, their expertise might be invaluable. The problem is who we have at the top. Blackwater does do a great job protecting VIP's in iraq and around the world, and as long as they are good at this, expect them to be used. What we should be doing, or at least what the us government should be doing, is controlling them better.

But, for the most part, most of you guys are up in outer space on this one.

TheLorax

"Assaulting a Navy ship at sea?" Who? They must be really good. Please explain how you are going to sneak past the radars and the lookouts? The main deck is nearly 30′ above the waterline. Are you going to try to climbup a ladder with machine guns and equipment? In old days of sail the ships would tie up and board each other. Those days are long gone. If a ship is going to be assaulted, it will be in port. Assaulting a military vessel at sea with a bunch of terrorists! What a joke."

Wow, it is a darn good thing for the pirates off of the Horn of Africa that they don't know that assaulting a ship at sea is impossible. Instead of the almost constant hijacking/capture of small, medium, and large vessels, the selling of their cargo and ransoming of their crews, they would have despaired knowing that it couldn't be done. It is good to have a maritime security expert here on the board to point these things out. Now if the Somali pirates would just read these posts, the US Navy would not have to train its sailors in how to assault a ship at sea to take it back from pirates. Then they, the Brits and the French could all just pack up and go home.

Thanks Lorax

Thanks tobiasaurusrex. I may alter it a little but useful.

Let's pretend we still live in a democracy, for now, and contact whatever authorities we can. This is a Federal decision, which means anyone can contact their Representative. I was once taught that for every letter, phone call, or email they receive, politicians assume that at least eight other people feel similartly.

This is my brief letter to the Californian Governor:

Dear Governor,

It is embarrassing and hypocritical that the United States is hiring, and indeed California is harboring, a private terrorist army, namely Blackwater Worldwide.

Despite the preposterous immunity given them within Iraq, they are still guilty of the actions of murder and other crimes, in order to instill fear: a.k.a. terrorism.

Blackwater Worldwide's behavior endangers actual US Servicemen and dignitaries. They may be "expert" at creating a microcosm of "safety" around statesmen, but their terrorist activities increase the general danger to all people, US, UN, and Iraqi alike.

It is repulsive that this private terrorist army is gaining permission to set up a military base in San Diego. I'm sure they're permitted to violate California gun laws, through some kind of "immunity", as well. Will they be allowed to murder and rape, also with impunity, as they do elsewhere?

This is repulsive. This Blackwater organization should be tried for its crimes against humanity, but instead they're being harbored by our State of California. By allowing their presence, the State of California endorses murder, rape, and terrorism, and that is shameful of the most populous state of our supposed democracy.

Thank you for your time

unclebucky:

"This must stop as soon as 20-Jan-09, baby…"

Why not now?

an intellectual Goddess.. and a cutting critique on america
Ms Arundhati Roy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1353908709340609667&q=instant+mix+imperial+democracy&ei=yU1IS...

Check out Blackwater's website. They ALREADY train local police. Between their Blackwater training, their Talon database-equipped laptops and their JTTF-funded stormtrooper gear-- your local cops (and their pals in Infraguard) are primed and ready...

I said this in my post above and I feel it is imperative that we realize what is happening in America today: We, the people, are at WAR against the corporate takeover of America. What we are seeing--and this is NOT some joke, some liberal "fear mongering," or hyperbole-it is truth-what we are seeing is the rise of Fascism in the USA. And it IS our DUTY as AMERICANS to FIGHT against this Fascism in every way we can! Please, please, wake up, folks. DO something--do not take this as merely an intellectual exercise--ACT!! America's enemies are acting--Bush and his corporate masters are on the march, and unless we confront him and his followers we will lose OUR country. The USA corporate monster is a huge and powerful octopus with tentacles throughout the globe-we can NOT win by confronting it directly. What we MUST do is cut off its tentacles piece by piece--boycott Exxon. Boycott Walmart. Whatever. Do SOMETHING. ANY little thing. Put our backs against the gears of the machine and stop it from working! This is, indeed, WAR.
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!" — Mario Savio

I know this is a naive question.

Don't the military (Army, Navy, Marines, AF, Coast Guard, etc.) train their own?

What are private contractors doing training our troops?

This must stop as soon as 20-Jan-09, baby...

Ugh. --UB.

lwhunt330 - I read somewhere late last year that local police forces would be training with Blackwater.

kittyladyoregon - not only does the logo look so NAZI, I think the guy in charge looks very much like a young Hitler.

Blackwater is a threat to America and its people. Americans therefore MUST rise up and defend our home against these invaders. This private army must NEVER be allowed to operate on American soil. It is the DUTY of EVERY American to fight against these invaders wherever they dare trespass on OUR soil. It is IMPERATIVE that we do everything in our power to resist this invasion--block deliveries to and from their compounds. Disrupt their military bases. Stop their mercenaries from carrying out their objectives. Impede Blackwater in every aspect of their business. This is WAR.

We have truly lost our footing, our vision and our sense. To allow mercenaries of any sort to exist and operate in our society is more than symptomatic of our tragic decline. If anything, we now see the the pandemic rise to power of the criminal class in the United States.

The Blckwater logo looks so very NAZI.

Now we have our own SS base here on US soil. Not brown-shirts, but black-shirts. Welcome to Fascism, America. I'm sure Blackwater will have to "train" local police how to deal with anti-war demonstrations.

Let's look at it this way: The gov't trains the soldiers, trains the SEALS, and then the SEALS retire, are hired by Blackwater, & then Blackwater trains the military. It looks like another of those loops. "If you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." "If you train me, I'll train you." We're fucked.

Judge Huff rules that the company would experience irreparable harm should the facility not open.
What harm is done as the creeping fascism overtakes the city, the state, the country?
States rights seem to be lost to the power of the Feds. City rights are lost. All rights are lost. We are doomed. We can thank people like Huff.

I told you so. Nothing stops WalMart from moving in where they aren't wanted, and nothing will stop Blackwater. America will soon be nothing more than a country filled with WalMarts, Prisons, and Blackwater - oh, and grubbing worms (us). As someone mentioned in another thread, the rich will all be living in their palatial estates in Dubai.

These Blackwater guys ARE dangerous to us and the tatters that remain of our Democracy. These guys read like one of those seed groups in Weimar Germany that flower into cancerous cannibals.

ALL your concerns, as major as they are, are underestimated. These and the others like them are a rampant "disease" of our culture, like the Oligarchy. They are the symptoms of Tertiary syphilis.

Or there also is the possibility that Blackwater is training Navy personnel to shoot because the US government will need all the help it can get forcefully incarcerating antiwar protestors in the KBR-built prison camps in this country when the US invades Iran.

WereInThisTogether brings up a good point. Why would Blackwater need to train the Navy, especially during an attack at sea? Business must be slow in the ME, so Blackwater needs to drum up business in another location to keep the contract money flowing in.

I wonder who trains those Blackwater trainers who train the US Navy to protect itself and whether it might not be cheaper to hire them directly.

Blackwater is a model campaign funding loop organization. It works like this: Elected Republicans hand one billion of taxpayers' dollars over to Blackwater. Blackwater contributes $100 million to Republican campaigns.

Life is good for Republicans...not so good for US taxpayers.

Train the Navy how to defend itself? What the hell has the Navy been doing for the last 200+ years? What. A. Crock.

We need Blackwater to teach birds how to fly and fish how to swim and horses how to run, I guess.

Ahhh....the US funded CHRISTIAN/ZIONIST TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.....

And people say that the US do not fund terrorist activities....

I think Obama's little ass-kissing episode at AIPAC yesterday speaks volumes about what he might (not) do with respect to Blackwater and other financially / politically connected firms with ties to national defense.

Given Obama's reticence at pulling Blackwater and private contractors out of Iraq it would be interesting to see if there are any corporate lobbying or financial campaign funding ties. McCain too! Making Blackwater accountable for its bloody actions, as Obama argues, is like making the banking industry accountable for misselling mortgages.

No clue in this story to what authority a federal court might have over a permit decision made by the City of San Diego.

I think the word "Blackwater" says it all. Defended by "Judges for greater Corporate Power".

Blackwater would instruct sailors on tactics to use if insurgents assault a ship at sea.
"Assaulting a Navy ship at sea?" Who? They must be really good.
Somebody has been watching "Under Seige" too many times.
Just exactly how are you going to tie up to a destroyer going 30 knots and maneuvering? Please explain how you are going to sneak past the radars and the lookouts? The main deck is nearly 30' above the waterline. Are you going to try to climbup a ladder with machine guns and equipment?
In old days of sail the ships would tie up and board each other. Those days are long gone.
If a ship is going to be assaulted, it will be in port. Assaulting a military vessel at sea with a bunch of terrorists! What a joke.

A likely result from a federal judge with ties to the Repugs. No surprise here folks!

If this isn't a good excuse for states to start seceding, please offer another explanation...