And what about chest-thumping, war-mongering neocons? Has anyone been denied communion because they support the war in Iraq, or support the use of torture? What about those who fight tooth and nail against providing everyone with healthcare? Or those who poison the environment and make us sick just so they can make a quick profit? Or does this "culture of life" thing only apply to those not yet born? I don't approve of using communion as a weapon, but those that do should at least be consistent.

It's completely unacceptable for someone to permit or deny communion to ANYBODY... Communion is something personal between Jesus and yourself and has nothing to do with a priest or a bishop. Each man must search his own heart and determine whether or not to take communion. Yet, the Catholic church does use communion as a weapon and in my opinion, that's very wrong.

Never forget that these are the same people who created the Inquisition, and that they would bring it back given the chance.

Here in Kansas, governor Kathleen Sebelius has been asked by the archbishop of her diocese to stop taking communion because of her support of abortion rights. As a lifelong Kansas and lifelong Catholic, my response is anger at the archbishop for interfering in the secular governance of my state. Shame on the Catholic church for their interference.

My husband went to Catholic schools and refers to himself as a "recovering Catholic". I was not raised in that particular faith and do not understand why those who do not follow some serious "catholic" beliefs (using birth control, sex outside of marriage, etc.) still continue to go to Catholic churches. Is it because it's a tradition?

As for the denying of communion, seems to be a common thing in the church. Though I don't know why a belief or thought should cause a denial by the priest.

I am no fan of ANY of one of the 3 major patriarchal religions since all institutionalize a lesser status to women. The fact that the Catholic church focuses so much on the UNBORN (and by extension female sexuality) and so LITTLE on war, poverty, racial injustice, and the GLARING ignominius acts of many governments (particularly our own), added to the blood on its hand from the Inquisition(s) and burning of women as witches, added to the debacle over molesting young boys. I mean is there any indication here of a moral highground with which to claim the right to speak as the Deity's ambassador on earth?

As it's written in the Bible (something to the effect of( "get the board away from your own eyes before seeking to condemn others," fits the Catholic Church to a T. Like Bush, there's all this pseudo concern for the fetus and so little for LIVING beings. Encouraging a high birth rate, discouraging birth control is HEINOUS disregard, hardly even masked misogyny. There is no respect for LIFE unless BOTH genders are recognized as HOLY and whole beings. The church is so far behind on that tenet alone, and I have little respect for it. Jesus, in my view was a MASTER, but the institutionalized churches only use HIS name and go about making policy that 9 times out of 10 contradicts to the point of blasphemy Christ'as ACTUAL teachings. It's a dark charade that's lasted centuries, some of its rituals almost hypnotic renditions of black art(s).

Until the Catholic Church, of which I am a member, dials back from this type of public and symbolic thrashing of public officials true dialogue over the serious issue of abortion or any other issue can never take place. We are losing the ability to build true faith (in each other, in our institutions, etc.) and replacing it with the type of phoney Christianity best associated with the John Hagees of the world.

PS By black art I do not mean related to the Black race, it's rather the expression for those who play with magic and align with malevolent forces, i.e. the "dark" side.

MWB24610 & MO 42 & KLORO: Good posts.

The subtext of this article is that the church would support a deranged lunatic into "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" as a fit substitute for a thoughtful man, all because the thoughtful man (Obama) gives women their own POWER? I mean are we IN the 21st century or the crusades?

In accord with some other posters: What is the policy on political speech in a 501(c)(3) tax exempt religious organization? Denial of a sacrament of communion, a definitely church-ordained practice, for a political reason seems very clear grounds for at least an investigation of the validity of their status. Does one conviction on these grounds affect the entire organization? Requiring the Roman Catholic church to pay taxes would solve a lot of financial troubles for this country, until the members stopped making offerings to this political action committee(PAC).
A progressive church in Pasadena, CA was investigated for comments made from the pulpit that the allegers thought were political. It took them years and presumably tens of thousands of dollars, or more, to fight and win their suit. That money would surely have gone to the community for humanitarian purposes. I think this priest's denial of communion to Kmieck is way more blatant and political than the All Saints Church case.

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation
peace,
st john

gus June 3rd, 2008 12:00 pm
Chrisdutch June 3rd, 2008 12:33 pm

Fair comments.

I got raised with "Hate the sin, love the sinner". That seems to be missing here.

I was raised a Methodist.....For a brief period of time I went to Calgary church in Ft. Lauderdale where they had a very "charismatic" leader (the more charismatic the easier it is for people to submit) in the early '90's. I briefly educated myself about Buddhism & the story of Siddhartha (very interesting story and I like some aspects of Buddhism) and for the past 7 yrs. I have been reading & learning the Course in Miracles.

I have found that being a non-church-go'er has actually made me feel closer to Jesus (the person I read & heard about) than when I went to the weekly building (church) and sat with all the hypocrites (members). Sunday morning Christians turned into Monday afternoon charlatans!

Remember......ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.....Don't think you have to take communion or go to church to call yourself a Christian. In fact....anyone who has to tell me they are a Christian is a marked person in my book!!! I keep my eye on them and my wallet just for protection!!!!

Martin Luther was right.

I love you, siouxrose! You are one of the clearest speakers on these sites and I am filled with "hope" when I read that there is another perspective than that of "war is the only way to resolve conflict."
If the catholic church were to deny communion to all who have transgressed their sin list, we would fall far short of the requisite number of people to run our government or our corporations. Is it not a fact that JMcC is divorced and remarried and that he has acknowledged an affair with someone other than his wife (either #1 or #2, I'm not sure which). How many children do those who advocate "natural birth control"/abstinence have and how have they prevented more than a couple (Bush has 2 daughters, but only "one" pregnancy) of children being born? How many abortions have been secretly performed on the "girlfriends" of some of these male politicians who rail against that practice? I often apply the quote from Shakespeare: "Methinks though protesteth too much." Watch the preachers who speak of the Devil and the sins He causes. Larry Craig comes to mind as one who attacks homosexuality with such passion that his little error ends his political career (I think. is he still in office?)

I could go on, but will leave this thread for others to pick up.

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation.
peace,
st john

The Catholic church has been making strong movements towards narrowing its theological stances and support of social and political conservatism world wide. The censoring of Justo Gonzalez's works is another obvious example. Gonzalez is a Catholic who became an articulate spokesman and interpreter of Biblical theology along liberation perspectives. I believe he presents the most clearly Biblical view of the Bible since the Bible's authors themselves, but because his theology advocates for the poor and inspires revoluntionaries then it must not be allowed.
This case demonstrates the idols that the Catholic church and other denominations have made of abortion and sex. All other values are subjugated to this one value. In America, the Republican party platform has become the paradigm through which the Bible and theology is interpreted for many "Christians." However when they place such values ahead of the transcendent teachings of Christ, then they should stop calling themselves "Christian," but call themselves Republican theologians or some other name.

When Catholics are "denied" Communion for their political positions, it is time for those Catholics (and maybe a whole bunch more) to WAKE UP to the obvious. And that is that it's time to resign membership in an over-bearing bully fellowship and move elsewhere. (Yes, bully, if the "men" there decide to relegate you to hell for not toeing their political line.)

Communion (whether the priests, bishops and Pope agree---or even "know" it or not) is a thing done between a believer and Jesus Christ himself. It has not one ounce more value if done in a Catholic church than if done elsewhere, and not one ounce more value if administered by a "priest" than if administered by someone else.

When a few (or more) high-profile Catholics stand up and say firmly say "NO" with some courage and conviction, this outrageous political behavior by opinionated Catholic clergy will come to an end. You DO NOT go to hell for changing churches. 'Taint so. Never was. All you need is a few Catholics saying "No, thanks" and "I'm done", and "I shall worship Jesus with the protestants".

Truth be known, half of them should have bailed anyway after millions and millions and millions of dollars of the parishoners' offerings were used to court-settle the sexual abuse of children by dozens of priests.

Take note, I'm not asking anyone to "abandon" Jesus or abandon the idea of following Him. Quite the contrary, actually. But one denomination calling itself "THE" church? Utter Nonsense.

Organized superstition.

Egad! Another Fascist Fatwa?

ST JOHN: Your compliment has made my night! Gracias. I was reflecting on the confluence of these things: 1. The way G. Bush made the need to RETALIATE for 911 a "Wild, Wild West" style call to vengeance and 2. How Hollywood so often celebrates vengeance (getting even, getting back at) in its plot lines and 3. How religions foment the distrust among members of differing flocks rather than calling for UNITY in the name of the HOLY spirit.

I do rail against religion in this site because I believe it has to answer to a higher authority; and when religion leads the charge to hate, prejudice, war, punishment that becomes state-sponsored policy, or turns a blind eye to state-sponsored violence then religion has inverted whatever Divine purpose it purports to serve. This is incredibly dangerous in this particular phase because a good portion of people are being deceived, and the crux of the deception supports a deluded wish to create a world war of ghastly proportions.

I always marvel at the way you close your comments because I, too, try to line up my actions and beliefs with the themes of justice for all...

It's plausible that those of us who truly oppose war have in past lifetimes seen its impact up close and personal. Some spiritual authorities I have read suggest that there are older SOULS in Europe, but that American has a less mature genre of persons being born here. How painful has mankind rendered the plan for its own spiritual evolution! Light workers MUST uphold the themes that lift us out of the shackles of historical redundancy into the possibility for better relations among "tribes." I salute the efforts of all those behind THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM. Indeed, "Another World IS possible," but to get there, many of the traditions masked as religious theology MUST be transcended! These too often hold people back and continue the divide and conquer theme elites use to maintain control of their populations.

@ miftin June 3rd, 2008 6:43 pm:

"Fill a couple of picnic baskets with fried chicken and other goodies, then go down to skid row and spread out a red checked table cloth and feed the homeless and sup with the prostitutes. Invite the drug addicts and the mentally ill and even the tax collectors to join you. It's far better than getting dressed up and going into some tacky chapel for a meaningless sip of grape juice and a tiny wafer."

Funny thing. I was just asking myself, just before I read miftin's comment, "What would Jesus do?"

thundermoon;
very good point. If Judas was deserving of communion who could argue in favour of denying it to someone else.

After 8 years in a catholic school I was pulled out because I started to have suicidal thoughts. I may not be catholic, but I still am in recovery from that institution.

This is bizarre, as the old days of using abortion as a wedge issue are over. In view of recent data, this is a nonissue, and only rightwing hacks, clergy and politicians, resort to it as a political or ecclesial weapon.

Glen Stassen, Ph.D., professor of Christian Ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary in California, presented data findings in 2004 that demonstrated that abortions increased during Bush's first term. He cited Bush's economic policies and lack of health care as the most significant factors for the increase in abortion numbers, which had been steadily declining in the 1990s under Bill Clinton.

Google: Glen Stassen and abortions rise under Bush, for several articles on Stassen's research and his defense of his thesis, including his defense in a dispute with Factcheck.org.

Thanks for all these posts.

The greatest shame, in my view, is that priests and bishops (and I was once one of them) cannot comprehend the difference between being in favor of abortion and not imposing one's moral belief on others. But I know that the thing the Catholic Church fears more than sin itself is freedom. Rome never has accepted the spread of democracy in the WEstern world.

FUCK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, and all their perverted child molesting priests too.

People often talk as if the Church hierarchy were the equivalent of the Church in toto, or as if the Church's moral authority were not essentially self-regulating. When priests & bishops misapply Church and moral law, then their action has no true spiritual effect. Even when the pope claimed the authority to depose monarchs, he didn't excommunicate the subjects of non-Catholic monarchs who refused to fight against their sovereign.

The Church's own strictures forbid the extension of moral imperative into definite legislation, because there is no moral authority attaching to the interpretation of facts. A legislator could be excommunicated for passing a law declaring that abortion is a positive right, but for nothing else. If this weren't so, then the hierarchy would either have to insist that Catholic legislators not only outlaw abortion, but also make the penalty for women who abort their children equal to the penalty for murder. By failing to do so, a bishop would incur his own sentence of excommunication.

Not only that, they would have to excommunicate every Catholic politician who doesn't promote legislation to end legal divorce & remarriage, since allowing divorce or voting for divorced candidates, like Ronald Reagan and John McCain, is active collaboration in the evil of adultery.

Just because a bishop or pope thinks he's morally obliged to excommunicate someone doesn't mean that he is, or that the excommunication is valid.

Isn't it odd that Jesus didn't deny communion at the Last Supper (ought to be called the First Supper) even though he knew he had a betrayer and a denier there? If he could himself serve communion to Peter and Judas, I don't know what beef anyone else has about someone receiving it.

Dionne reports, "But like many Catholic Democrats, Kmiec said he was profoundly attracted to Ronald Reagan. For Kmiec, five words in Reagan's 1980 acceptance speech summarized the essence of a Catholic view of politics: 'Family, work, neighborhood, peace and freedom.'"

Dionne (and Kmiec) might well have a point in terms of communion being used as a weapon; however, for Kmiec (and not he alone) to fixate on Reagan's five words as Reagan soon rolled out the Salvador Option against families and neighborhoods in active dismissal of peace and freedom in Central America places Kmiec in a light that should invite excommunication--but certainly not from a Church whose historical response, for example, to Archbishop Romero's permanent "excommunication" from the families and neighborhoods of the people who came to benefit from his message of liberation theology suggests that the political facets of some social issues outweigh the moral facets of other, more immediate, social issues. The culture of life, in its failure to recognize the economic injustice inflicted upon those living-in-the-world, is a culture of death.

Greg Grandin describes the Salvador Option thus: "Once in office, [President] Reagan came down hard on central America, in effect letting his administration's most committed militarists set and execute policy. In El Salvador, they provided more than a million dollars a day to fund a lethal counter-insurgency campaign . . . . All told, US allies in central America during Reagan's two terms killed over 300,000 people, tortured hundreds of thousands and drove millions into exile." (from his Empire's Workshop)

Complicity at any stage . . .

If the Church chooses to take action and make statements involving itself in politics and especially electoral politics, it should have it's tax exempt status withdrawn immediately.

Daniel David June 3rd, 2008 1:41 pm

"But one denomination calling itself "THE" church? Utter Nonsense."

Just another riff on "God's Chosen People".

What does Kmiec think of Obama's feeling toward Iran's nuclear power? If Obama believes Iran will not use it for peaceful purposes, will he agree that Iran must be bombed to protect Israel?

If Kmiec is in the state of grace when asking to take communion, his political views should have no bearing on his receiving it.

At my church, everyone who approaches for communion receives it, no questions asked, so there must be more to this story other than Kmieck supporting Obama.

P.S. The Catholic Church is not evil, "my friends."

Its not "evil", its just out-moded and stupid.

Luther demonstrated the anti-Christian flaws in the Roman Church five centuries ago, and they have not repaired them.

Anyone who continues to support the Roman Church is just as foolish and ignorant as those who volunteered to join the Army after the Vietnam War.

One can deny this but not from a position of Truth and Reason only from Fear and Laziness.

-matti.

What Daniel David fails to consider is that the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Church; ergo, the Eucharist dispensed in Catholic churches is the One True Eucharist.

Or so faithful and pious Roman Catholics hold.

Those outside the faith may hold different conclusions.

I can't resist suggesting a parallel with those who assert, as a matter of faith, that the Democratic Party is the One True Party-- and apostates be damned.

"Recycle1 June 3rd, 2008 1:20 pm
I got raised with "Hate the sin, love the sinner". That seems to be missing here."

Another fair comment.

And surely people can make their point without using vile language. Civil conversations lend themselves to learning something.

Outmoded and stupid? How would you know? You apparently believe in nothing, so everyone who has belief is stupid? Grow up.

As Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Any church which does this ought immediately lose its tax-exempt status.

Fill a couple of picnic baskets with fried chicken and other goodies, then go down to skid row and spread out a red checked table cloth and feed the homeless and sup with the prostitutes. Invite the drug addicts and the mentally ill and even the tax collectors to join you. It's far better than getting dressed up and going into some tacky chapel for a meaningless sip of grape juice and a tiny wafer.

The Catholic Church is entitled to set the terms of worship, and excommunicates are entitled to find another church. I'd like to see Bush and his fellow war criminals be denied membership in every church in the world.

The second you accept something as true without evidence you are casting a vote against living in a rational society.

Many, many Catholics supported George W. Bush. My question is: Isn't starting illegal, genocidal war and torture grave moral evils? As far as I am concerned, I hope all Catholics who voted for W burn in hell with him.

I was raised in the Roman church, from parochial schooling to Confirmation. But I married an Episcoplian and soon joined my wife's church.

I miss Rome not at all. I attend liturgical services on Sundays and Holy Days that are virtually identical to RC services in English, and I participate in the sacrements led by capable, well-educated, highly trained clergy who not only are grounded in the basics of scripture, tradition and reason, but also largely are the best and the brightest of their seminary classes. Since there are plenty more graduates than available jobs, only the cream of the crop occupy the pulpits. We're strengthened by our married clergy, our female clergy and our gay/lesbian clergy who largely are honest about who they are.

My large, extended family (Polish in orgin) often is miserable about their church, and I'm at a loss to understand why practicing, committed Christians would remain in a church that would allow such things as what happened to Kmiec?

I'm not recruiting. It's not the Anglican way. But given all the reasons -- very good reasons -- why one would choose to be part of a faith community, why would anyone decide to remain in a dysfunctional one when there are alternatives?

The differences, for instance, between Rome and Canterbury in theology and practice are minimal and often exaggerated for effect, given that we share the same Bible, common lectionary and creeds. The differences in governance and polity are somewhat larger, but it's worth noting that differences in how local and state governments operate do not stop Americans from being Americans nor from recognizing each other as fellow citizens.

The communion flap should remind all of us of a misuse of religion that crosses confessional boundaries: Many religious groups call on the power of the state to compel their followers to do what the moral teachings, persuasive powers, and religious authority of the organization cannot cause them to do. That ploy is related to the tendency of religionists who are angry at individuals or groups to claim that their god is angry with those "malefactors" and will torture them for an eternity in the afterworld.