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Iraq Death Toll 'Above Highest Estimates'
BAQUBA - The real number of the dead is far higher than even the highest declared in death tolls, many Iraqis say.
A study by doctors from the Johns Hopkins School of Health in conjunction with Iraqi doctors from al-Mustanceriya University in Baghdad, published in the British medical journal The Lancet in October 2006, estimated the number of excess deaths as a result of the occupation at above 655,000.
Just Foreign Policy, an independent organisation "dedicated to reforming U.S. foreign policy" offered an updated total of 1,213,716 at the time of this writing.
On Sep. 14, 2007, Opinion Research Business (ORB), an independent polling agency located in London, produced a figure of 1,220,580 deaths as a result of the invasion.
These estimates are above any official figures from Iraq, but they do consider the reported official figures.
Iraqis believe that the authorities are hiding these figures. "The U.S. military benefits from hiding the real totals," said a political analyst who declined to give his name because of the atmosphere of fear within Iraq. "And the Iraqi government is a puppet of the Americans, so their figures are ridiculously low as well."
The report published in The Lancet did not take into account many circumstances of death, say residents in Baquba, capital of Diyala province 40km north of capital Baghdad.
"All people know that a large number of bodies are dropped into the Diyala river," said a local resident. "I was kidnapped and taken to a village called Huwaider, which is completely Shia and located on the Diyala River. Sunnis there are killed and dropped in the river by militiamen, but I was freed by the U.S Army.
"People in all the villages on the river have gotten used to seeing bodies floating in the river," he added.
"I lived in Gatoon district, the volatile stronghold of the militants in Baquba," Yasir al-Azawi, a 37-year-old truck driver told IPS. "Everyday I saw vehicles dropping bodies in the river. Everyone in my district knows this truth; that the river contained an extraordinary number of bodies to the extent that living in that place became impossible. We left our home and moved to live in the north of Iraq."
An officer at the directorate-general of police for Diyala province said the number of dead is impossible to calculate exactly.
"When the new security plan began in Diyala, some of the arrested militants confessed that they were burying bodies," the officer said. "Some of them led us to the places where they buried the bodies. We found hundreds by digging in the areas that are a stronghold of the militants, and sometimes in the gardens of the houses they were living in, or in a place nearby."
An eyewitness at the Baquba morgue spoke with IPS on condition of anonymity.
"I was looking for my relative who was kidnapped and then killed, and I saw an ambulance moving the dead who were killed by militants," he said, "I asked the driver about these bodies. He said that the Iraqi army found them in houses and in holes dug within the houses. I also saw a skeleton among the bodies."
Many believe that the number of the dead is higher than these studies reflect also because the lack of access to areas controlled by militias and other fighters prevents police and army personnel from finding and collecting bodies.
"These militia strongholds have prevented access to police for over two years now," Ali Hussein, a local vegetable seller told IPS. "Dozens, and sometimes hundreds were kidnapped everyday and taken to the militants strongholds. People heard nothing about thousands of them. Even today, thousands of families know nothing about their loved ones because they were not found in the morgue."
A policeman, speaking on condition of anonymity, told IPS that "we were moving the bodies from the main streets of the city through patrols. A body that may have been dropped in the street is a message for people. They dropped it purposely. But these are only a few; the bodies of most we believe were killed, were never found."
"The morgue continues to receive bodies brought by the police or the ambulance," said an employee at the Baquba morgue. "We used to receive many daily. The capacity of the morgue was not enough, so they were buried after certain procedures like taking photos or waiting for the families to ask about them and to take them. Sometimes, at times of bombing and disastrous accidents, we were receiving hundreds of bodies."
Other officials also offered bleak assessments.
"Hundreds of families come to the provincial office everyday to ask about their loved ones who were kidnapped; they do not know whether they are dead or alive," an employee at the governor's office told IPS. "Often the Iraqi army finds records of the dead from the militants through their confessions. Every week there are new lists of names of those who were killed by the militants. People come to find out whether their loved ones are dead, in order to stop searching."
New burial grounds are found often, and the dead are usually not recorded. Many residents told IPS that farmers commonly find bones in their fields.
© 2008 Inter Press Service

83 Comments so far
Show AllExcuse me but the article did not say US forces Killed 1 million people. To the uninformed bush haters (bush can do no right but all ways does wrong) this killing between sunni and shia has been going on for over a thousand years. Why are people only complaining now? Bush has not killed them, actually if any of you had read the article (word for word) you would know the US presence has actually hindered some of the killing. ""All people know that a large number of bodies are dropped into the Diyala river," said a local resident. "I was kidnapped and taken to a village called Huwaider, which is completely Shia and located on the Diyala River. Sunnis there are killed and dropped in the river by militiamen, but I was freed by the U.S Army." For the totally uninformed as an ex-moslem let me explain, the sunni consider the shia to be worse than dogs and apostates, the shia consider the sunni apostates, mohammed stated the penalty for being an apostate is DEATH.
(Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" )
Because mohammed is considered by moslems to be the perfect man to be emulated in all ways it is always open season on apostates. READ how many times the people said the militias killed the people, "When the new security plan began in Diyala, some of the arrested militants confessed that they were burying bodies," statement like, "And yet - there is hardly a whimper of protest anywhere in this country or in the world about the quite literal mass murder/genocide being committed by the "good" United States in Iraq." are totally incorrect. People who want a fast pull out of US forces from Iraq would condemn the sunni there to complete extermination. Then just like the vietnam war protesters who washed their hands of the the murder of over 6 hundred thousand innocent Vietnamese by the VC and north Vietnamese you will wash your hands of the death of millions of sunni. Saddam virtually exterminated the marsh arabs, why were you not protesting then? Saddam was murdering and ethnic cleansing the kurds and moving sunni onto their ancient lands, why were you not protesting then? Oh, I forgot bush is responsible for ALL the problems of the world. He certainly made some enormous mistakes but he is not responsible for the murder going on in Iraq, islam and the Iraqis are.
My first thought on reading this article was that new information on deaths in Iraq will be denied, and ridiculed, again. When death counts started coming out, early in the war, it seemed a special effort was made to discount them, uncount them, never counted them. I remember, it was ugly to watch. Remember? Then one day the prez dreamed up some number of 30 thousand, which he declared to us publically on the teevee, as if THAT meant anything, him so fond of lying to us, to our faces. And America yawned.
It's been that way ever since, just a sick commentary to what America has become, and we all know it, I know we do, one and all. I know I'm preaching uselessly, but this thing is EXACTLY what we didn't want the USA to become, and all these murders are WHY. I think it's important to remember, so we can clearly understand what and where we are now.
Even I didn't think this war would become what it has, and I'm a really negative person.
Fight them there so we don't have to fight them here, that's what the idiots still say, is that repeating in the back of anyone else's mind? They think we're such cowards, I guess. And what's going on overseas isn't slaughter, because? No answer, because it's not our fault, they think, them people's crazy, they'll be KILLING everyone if we leave. That's as far as they get with ending the war, nevermind and forget what we might be doing right NOW, today. Today and tomorrow don't matter if it isn't our fault. Yesterday's fault of waging an illegal war is a problem, but the here and now? Not our fault. It's not our fault!!! they whine.
Try discussing all the deaths and all that pops out is why we can't leave. They'll be killin' each other, so we have to stay and kill them ourselves, it seems. They write those people off. I think, in their minds, they're already dead. Certainly already going to hell. I guess that makes it okay. It's a crusade, after all.
You'd never know, looking at us now, that we tossed out a british empire without much more than hunting rifles, at one time. Like we still don't have hunting rifles, and gangs too. I guess that was then, that was them, and it isn't us, anymore, because damnit WE WOULD NEVER DO THIS TO ANYBODY! Not you, not me, not anyone on here, save shills and some of the more insane.
No, only an empire would do this, not a democracy. Ignoring a few opinion polls is one thing, going their own GOP direction on some policy issues is understandable, but completely ignoring the will of the vast majority of the people over something so immense as WAR, a bloody civil war, for YEARS after many thousands dead and maimed and a cost in the trillions is NOT what representational goverment does. But these folks practically brag about it.
It's really zen, because the more I learn, the less I feel I understand. It only took a few stories, like this one, to give regular old me very strong opinions, and that was over five years ago. What's wrong with people??
"overkill June 2nd, 2008 11:57 am
What is it now? About 10% of the Iraqi civilian population that have been murdered, maimed or moved to some god forsaken refugee hovel."
Try a "little" higher; like 20-25%. 10% is closer to the death toll of Iraqis, so excluding the disgustingly neglected or disregarded refugees. The combined total is closer to 6mn, around 4mn of the refugees, internal and external, and nearing, if not even exceeding, 2mn for Iraqi death toll. That's besides the many millions left to starve, and the many more who'll die due to the consequences of this war of aggression.
In March 2003, Iraq had a population of around 24 to 26 million, so 10% is far from representative.
"This isn't just 'christian compassion' at work this is the sadistic doings of the Great Satan and His Red State Menace. Praise the Lord and pass the cluster bombs…"
True; it's not really Christian at all, but false prophet anti-Christian, the worst kind. People can be anti-Christian without being disrespectful and by simply not adhering to the religious belief or faith, for 'anti' only means 'instead of', which is not the same thing as, 'opposed to' or 'foe of'. But the false prophet "Christians" love to be hellishly anti-Christian and anti-humanity.
Don't pass the cluster bombs though; instead, make them totally illegal to be even manufactured, so all the more illegal to additionally use them. Missiles should also be made illegal; all of them, imo.
We "of course" won't get real justice though. Too many people lustfully like to make their favourite forms of murder legal. And they lustfully lie their souls away to their real boss, Satan or else Evil, or "the Evil one", father of lies and murder; that damn egotistical brat and schmuck too many in the churches have aligned themselves with. Disgusting it is, but to be expected; charlatanry and insanity being more broadly occurring human character dysfunctions.
So even my saying to consider 20-25% instead of 10% is what I believe to be a very conservative count for the reality of Iraq today. Dahr Jamail, perhaps again with Ahmed Ali, reported many enough months ago that around 8mn Iraqis are in devastating conditions; including, but also not only the refugees. That's over 33% of the present population of Iraq.
Bernice,
I doubt the U.S. would allow trials of John Bolton and other U.S. war criminals. They should be, but surely the U.S elites would intervene.
USAn,
Definitely, impeachment alone would be a mockery of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, as well as the principles of true democracy and the international laws and treaties, ... that the U.S. Constitution states are the supreme law of the USA once the U.S. has ratified these and which the U.S. not only did, but also was party to their establishment.
JaneM,
It became genocide as of 2003; we just don't have much to speak of for honourable bodies of law.
The idea of wars, of revolutionary wars, of revolution being easy, a few guns a few box cutters, falls back into the circle of violence.
The Revolution must be Velvety and smooth, a non-violent mind movement. Minds in unison are more powerful than any weapon, bullet proof.
Let's get our species back into the circle of love, the circle of peace, the circle of life.
To all who contribute to this Common mindevolution: NAMASTE
pontificatinpapa, You Ask "As a footnote, how many of you actually go for that crap about Iranian President Ahmadinejad not believing there was a holocaust.
I think it's more a case of "What can I say to really piss off those Israelis and derive the wrath of the U. S. at the same time"
---------
I agree he is no peacemaker, just talking tough because He hates the policies of Israel and the USA.
Here is what the real decider in Iran says about it's nuclear program...
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D581F011-0D4C-4833-8A81-95F415244F9C.htm
Ahmadinejad likes to talk tough like many leaders but Iran has no suicidal intension of attacking Israel.... just gunboat rhetoric like Bush and many others.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/800098.html
Time to make peace and I think Israel knows this can't go on much longer.
Bush and Cheney are hardly the only suspects in these crimes against humanity.
Congress backed the invasion and continues to fund more of the same with no end in sight.
And with over a million Iraqis dead and perhaps five million becoming refugees, why is this not being called a holocaust ?
Answer: The Arabs don't control American media and foreign policy.
perhaps what is happening is that a form of ethnic and religiuos/politic "cleansing" is happenning at grass roots level in Iraq..the differring sections of society are fighting it out for control...if left for long enough the dominant section will bring about a form of settled cohesion and assume power...allowing the US to claim a victory (as long as no-one looks to closly at how it came about) they need to prevent it from escalating into civil war of course but the military should be able to keep a lid on it..which is also going to serve to keep it hidden at the same time...i'm sure at this point the powers that be would settle for any form of resoloution no matter how it was arrived at..and this being the middle east...no-one in the west REALLY cares....won't see the end of terrorism tho exactly the opposite...one may as well declare a war on climate change then carry on polluting the planet oh hang on...that would be eco terrorism..sorry
the cost in lives for all sides and civilians is a hell of a way to make a point..that terrorism is unacceptable frankly i find that pretty terrifying on the whole...note yet again it isn't the rich and powerfull that are dying..
wolf;
another refugee from Freerepublic, eh?
Bush isn't responsible for all the ills of the world, but he did unleash the current hell on earth which is occupied Iraq. It was a war of choice, an unnecessary war.
Bush and the united states are responsible for the mass murder/genocide of the people of Iraq. Saddam was your ally when he drained the marsh in southern Iraq. He was your ally when he gassed his own people, indeed Donald Rumsfeld sold him the supplies needed to make the gas which killed thousands of his own people.
But bush isn't the first president who's slaughtered millions of civvies. Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon killed far more people in Vietnam than were killed by the victorious commies. Like bush they too poisoned the land with toxic chemicals, agent orange in Vietnam - uranium waste in Iraq. Unexploded bombs dropped by the usa kill thousands in southeast asia each year, to this very day. For how many more years will the unexploded bombs dropped by the us air force be killing Iraqi's in the future?
You sowed the wind by inciting a religious jihad against the evil empire of the ussr, now that that whirlwind is fighting your own evil empire, you claim foul. The usa can't go bankrupt fast enough in my opinion. It's a shame that the world won't be able to do to your nation what we did to Nazi Germany or the Empire of Japan, you deserve it as much as they did.
leesak -- i just posted this quote on another article here but it's worth repeating :
"History cannot be different but we must be different . . . the idea of violence as the midwife of history has exhausted itself . . ."
-- Aleksandr Yakovlev as quoted by David Remnick in his book "Lenin's Tomb" (page 300)
Beware however of the power of 'minds in unison' because the extreme example of that might be the Nazis or the Borg . . .
i recently read that the real founding of the Nazi party occurred during the extreme sanctions against Germany during and right after WWI -- the children who grew up deprived and half starved during that time became the backbone of the Nazi party as young adults . . . there is an obvious parallel to Iraq today . . .
skippyagogo41
"another refugee from Freerepublic, eh?" What is the Freerepublic?
"It was a war of choice, an unnecessary war." As time time and 20-20 hind site have proven this is correct.
"Bush and the united states are responsible for the mass murder/genocide of the people of Iraq." Did you bother to read my entire post or only the parts that coincide with your delusional thinking?
1968, July 17. A group of Ba'athists and military elements overthrow the Arif regime. Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr re-emerges as the President of Iraq and Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC). Ba'ath party seeks U.S. help in re-arming Iraqi military but is turned down.
1971. Iraq begins chemical warfare research at Rashad to the north east of Baghdad. Research is conducted on a number of chemical agents including Mustard gas, CS (tear gas) and Tabun. Iraq starts biological warfare research in the mid-1970s. After small-scale research, a purpose-built research and development facility was authorized at al-Salman, also known as Salman Pak.
1972. Saddam, knowing that the Soviet Union will re-equip the Iraqi Army, travels to Moscow. Iraq and the Soviet Union sign a treaty of "Friendship and Cooperation." Another reason Saddam signs the treaty is because it obligated the local communist party, which is very strong, to co-operate with the Ba'ath Party, which is not so strong at that time.
1978-1990. Soviet union sells Iraq (33) Il-76M/Candid-B Transport/tanker aircraft; (37) Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopters; (12) Mi-24D/Mi-25/Hind-D Combat helicopters; (30) Mi-8TV/Hip-F Helicopter; (61) MiG-21bis/Fishbed-N Fighter aircraft; (50) MiG-23BN/Flogger-H FGA aircraft; (30) MiG-25P/Foxbat-A Fighter aircraft; (8) MiG-25RB/Foxbat-B Reconnaissance; (41) MiG-29/Fulcrum-A Fighter aircraft; (46) Su-22/Fitter-H/J/K FGA aircraft; (25) Su-24MK/Fencer-D Bomber aircraft; (84) Su-25/Frogfoot-A Ground attack aircraft; (180) 2A36 152mm Towed guns; (100) 2S1 122mm Self-propelled guns; (100) 2S3 152mm Self-propelled guns; (10) 2S4 240mm Self-propelled mortars; (560) BM-21 122mm MRL; (576) D-30 122mm Towed guns; (576) M-46 130mm Towed guns; (10) SS-1 Scud/9P117M SSM launchers; (100) BRDM-2 Sagger-equipped tank destroyers; (200) PT-76 Light tanks; (60) SA-13/9K35 Strela-10 self-propelled AA systems; (160) SA-9/9P31 self-propelled AA systems; (2,150) T-62 Main battle tanks; (25) SA-6a/2K12 Kvadrat SAM systems; (80) SA-8b/9K33M Osa-AK Mobile SAM systems; (960) SA-13 Gopher/9M37 SAM's; (100) SA-14 Gremlin/Strela-3 Portable SAM; (250) SA-16 Gimlet/Igla-1 Portable SAM's; (840) SA-6a Gainful/3M9 SAM's; (6,500) SA-7 Grail/Strela-2 Portable SAM's; (1,290) SA-8b Gecko/9M33M SAM's; (1,920) SA-9 Gaskin/9M31 SAM's; (800) SS-1c Scud-B/R-17 SSM's; (40) SS-1c Scud-B/R-17 SSM's.
1980, September 22. The armed forces of Iraq launch an invasion against Iran. The Iraqi army, trained and influenced by Soviet advisers, has organic chemical warfare units and possesses a wide variety of delivery systems. When neither side achieves dominance, the war quickly stalemates. To stop the human-wave attacks by the Iranians, Iraq employs home-produced chemical agents as a defensive measure against the ill-prepared Iranians.
The first reported use of chemical weapons is in November 1980 (probably CS). For the next several years, reports circulate of additional chemical attacks.
(If as you say the US was such great buddies with Saddam WHY was the Iraqi army armed almost exclusively with Soviet equipment and the Iranians with old US equipment inherited from the Shah?)
1980-88. Chemical weapons are used extensively during Iran-Iraq war. Most are used by Iraq. Saddam is also believed to have used them against his own people, primarily Kurdish and Shiia minorities. First use during the war is by Iraq. By 1985 Iraq is producing 1,000 tons of various chemical weapons agents annually.
During the war, Saddam appoints his cousin, Ali Hasan al-Majid, as his deputy in the north. In 1987-88, al-Majid led the "Anfal" campaign of attacks on Kurdish villages. All villages within 20 kilometers of the Iranian border are ruthlessly destroyed, and many are attacked with chemical weapons. Amnesty International estimates that more than 100,000 Kurds were killed or "disappeared" during this period.
During the first half of the war the United States provides Iraq with limited military assistance in the form of satelite imagry of Iranian military dispostions and troop concentrations. Assistance is ended when their use of chemical weapons is confirmed.
1981-1988. China sells Iraq (50) Type-83 152mm Towed guns; (1,300) Type-59/T-54 Main battle tanks; (25) Type-653 Armored Recon Vehicles; (1,300) Type-69-II Main battle tanks; (650) YW-531C & YW-701/Type-63 APC; (100) CAS-1 Kraken/C-601 Anti-ship missiles For Tu-16/B-6 bomber aircraft; (1,000) HN-5A Portable SAMs.
Saddam bought most of his chemicals on the open market as duel use chemicals and in his labs in Salman Pak converted them. If you have evidence that proves beyond a doubt that "Donald Rumsfeld sold him the supplies needed to make the gas which killed thousands of his own people." than rush right out to your states attorney general or the ACLU and show them so they may file charges against Rumsfeld, other wise please keep your delusional and libelous thoughts to yourself.
"Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon killed far more people in Vietnam than were killed by the victorious commies." I see you are one of those vietnam war protesters that washed there hands of the deaths of those killed before, during and AFTER the war by the "victorious commies".
Wolf, I was 9 years old when the usa pulled out of vietnam. So, no I didn't get to protest that war. You claim that the commies killed half a million vietnamese, the body count of those killed by us forces during that war range from 2 to 5 million people. Not all of them were soldiers, the majority of that number were women and children. Had I been one of the commies who was in charge of the post war era, I too would have killed those who collaborated with the usa.
The usa supplied arms to both the iranians and Iraq during their war, or have you never heard of what went on during the Iran/contra days of Reagan's administration?
PS, those chemical warfare suits are useless in a desert environment. Wearing them in anything other than arctic conditions leads the soldier to suffer heat exhaustion faster than most chemical agents can kill you.
wolf, you also claim that the usa isn't at all responsible for the actions of the Iraqi people. Were you aware of the fact that the majority of those killed in the Nazi death camps were killed by other inmates? The difference between what the nazis did in their death camps and what your nation is doing in Iraq is one of scale, not intention.
skippyagogo41
After the war 8 hundred thousand Vietnamese soldiers, teachers government employees and a host of others deemed subversive to the state went to reeducation camps only 2 hundred thousand came out alive, those were whom I was referring to. Add to that the tens of thousands who tried to flee your friends the communists by boat and ended up as fish food. 3 million Cambodians were exterminated by your commie buddy Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. Do you have actual eye witness on the ground that counted 2 to 5 million people the majority of that number were women and children killed by the US, or are you taking these numbers out of thin air? Or read sites of others like you who routinely make up numbers to look important?
Your darn right the US supplied arms to Iran and mostly intelligence to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. Do you remember this thing called the COLD WAR? Saddam was a megalomaniac dictator mostly on the side of the soviets who armed his army, Iran was taken over by a religious fanatic, it was in the interest of the US to keep the war going as long as possible in the hopes that the populations of either or both countries would rise up and replace their leaders, almost anyone would be better than who was in power.
Just an aside, occasionally a French farmer is killed by unexploded ordnance from WW1 while plowing his fields.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1094.htm
"Hand-written notes allegedly smuggled out of Iraq claim Saddam has been equipping troops with chemical warfare suits to counter nerve gas. The documents were passed to the BBC by anti-Saddam group the Iraqi National Coalition and have been verified as genuine by three independent experts."
(the experts were hired by the BBC who are not exactly friendly to the US)
NOW if "chemical warfare suits are useless in a desert environment" just what was Saddam doing issuing them to his army? Your statement that they "are useless in a desert environments beyond ludicrous." Yes you rapidly suffer from heat exhaustion BUT would you rather die from VX gas?
You still have not told me what this freerepublic is.
blast duplicate posts. Sorry mod's I won't post multiple links again.
skippyagogo41
Your argument about the nazi death camps twists logic into a pretzel. The inmates of the nazi death camps assisted in the killing of their fellow inmates because if they did not then THEY themselves would have been killed, which unknown to them they would be any way.
In Iraq the sunni and the shia kill one another because their religion tells them to. If you missed reading that part of my previous post I'll repost it, from the hadiths:
(Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" )
Allah's Apostle is mohammed, according to islam the perfect man to be emulated in all ways.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/shia.html
The foundational figure in Shi'a history is 'Ali, the son-in-law and cousin of Muhammad. After the death of Muhammad, rival claims were put forth for the caliphate which was the office that was the supreme secular authority of Islam. In Shi'a history, Muhammad designated 'Ali as his successor, so that all the others who served in this capacity were illegitimate. The "Partisans of 'Ali," Shi'a 'Ali in the struggle to get 'Ali in the Caliphate and in the civil war that broke out when 'Ali was finally named Caliph gave the name to the religious schism that divided the Islamic world from the very beginning. Eventually the Shi'ites would develop a religious doctrine that differs in fundamental respects from orthodox, or Sunni Islam.
Thus the shia consider the sunni to have changed his (their) islamic religion and the sunni consider the shia to have changed his (their) Islamic religion. Thus each considers the other an apostate and it is always open season on apostates in islam.
wolf;
Before the usa invaded Iraq, that country was a secular state. Certainly not a perfect society, no one's going to argue that, but they were not using religion as an excuse to kill each other. The religious nuts did not rule Saddam's Iraq. Now, it's turning into a theocracy, well right now it's a mobarchy... There's a reason most nations avoid starting religious wars, during Europe's history the most violent wars were religious ones, they killed nearly as many people as died in the Plagues did. Georgie boy launched a religious 'crusade' when he declared war on a noun.
You'll have to wait a bit longer for my other comment, I oopsed and posted it twice, with links...
MiMiCcs:
Robert Fisk, in March, was estimating up to a million, plus he had this to say:
"Yet one of the terrible ironies of our times is that the most bloodthirsty of American statesmen – Bush and Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfovitz – have either never heard a shot fired in anger or have ensured they did not have to fight for their country when they had the chance to do so. No wonder Hollywood titles like "Shock and Awe" appeal to the White House. Movies are their only experience of human conflict; the same goes for Blair and Brown.
Churchill had to account for the loss of Singapore before a packed House. Brown won't even account for Iraq until the war is over.
It is a grotesque truism that today – after all the posturing of our political midgets five years ago – we might at last be permitted a valid seance with the ghosts of the Second World War. Statistics are the medium, and the room would have to be dark. But it is a fact that the total of US dead in Iraq (3,978) is well over the number of American casualties suffered in the initial D-Day landings at Normandy (3,384 killed and missing) on 6 June, 1944, or more than three times the total British casualties at Arnhem the same year (1,200).
They count for just over a third of the total fatalities (11,014) of the entire British Expeditionary Force from the German invasion of Belgium to the final evacuation at Dunkirk in June 1940. The number of British dead in Iraq – 176 – is almost equal to the total of UK forces lost at the Battle of the Bulge in 1944-45 (just over 200). The number of US wounded in Iraq – 29,395 – is more than nine times the number of Americans injured on 6 June (3,184) and more than a quarter of the tally for US wounded in the entire 1950-53 Korean war (103,284).
Iraqi casualties allow an even closer comparison to the Second World War. Even if we accept the lowest of fatality statistics for civilian dead – they range from 350,000 up to a million – these long ago dwarfed the number of British civilian dead in the flying-bomb blitz on London in 1944-45 (6,000) and now far outnumber the total figure for civilians killed in bombing raids across the United Kingdom – 60,595 dead, 86,182 seriously wounded – from 1940 to 1945.
the rest, if you're interested: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/robert-fisk-the-only-lesson-we-ever-learn-is-that-we-never-learn-797816.html
Obscene to the extreme. The war criminals must be held accountable.
pro-lifers sure kill a lot of people.
/wwjd?
//impeach
LOL over 1.2 million dead Iraqis as a result of the "occupation" (read: "killed as a result of the United States") and yet the world - and the US - does nothing about it. We have long ago passed the number of Iraqis who died as a result of Saddam's ruthless governance. We have long ago passed the number killed due to ethnic cleansing in Darfur. We are almost 1/5 of the way towards the number of Jews killed in the Concentration Camps during WWII by the "evil" Nazi government.
And yet - there is hardly a whimper of protest anywhere in this country or in the world about the quite literal mass murder/genocide being committed by the "good" United States in Iraq.
LOL. I have said it before: we have soooooo become what we used to stand against!
Heil!
demonstorm:
everyone knows that in order to beat the terrorists,
you must BECOME the terrorists.
They create a wasteland and call it peace.
I guess when the new 'roman' empire collapses from its own barbarism there will be those who blame the gays for the collapse. 'Where will you spend eternity' indeed.
What is it now? About 10% of the Iraqi civilian population that have been murdered, maimed or moved to some god forsaken refugee hovel. This isn't just 'christian compassion' at work this is the sadistic doings of the Great Satan and His Red State Menace. Praise the Lord and pass the cluster bombs...
At the recent Hay Festival of Ideas in Wales, George Monbiot, environmental activist and writer of commentary for The Guardian, tried to carry out a citizen's arrest of John Bolton, one of the festival's invited speakers.
Had the festival's security personnel not had to remove Monbiot from the room and thus prevent the arrest, we might now be anticipating Bolton's trial for war crimes by the International Criminal Court.
Instead, I HOPE we can anticipate at least 50 such arrests by the new U.S. Department of Justice on January 21, 2009. That would be a Justice Department cleansed of all neocon influence.
At this point, impeachment - which merely entails ejection from political office or judicial appointment - would be a bit too mild an action, don't you think? Only full, international war-crimes trials for hundreds would begin to do justice.
When does it become genocide?
JaneM - excellent question, and pivotal in determining the world's response to this catastrophe. Perhaps that legal term, once applied, can become the starting point for international action against this criminal structure now ruling the U.S.
I visited with more and more people that very quietly agree with the theocratical premise of Jeremiah Wright's much maligned sermon "God Damn America," which was, as we all know who cared to investigate, taken wholly out of context. More and more Americans are becoming now only questioning of, but also ashamed of this government - literally ashamed, ethically, morally, religiously, politically.
And by the way, thanks Dahr, for again bringing the truth to power.
odoco,
Your observations of Americans' discontent is echoed by this story: "Latest Al-CIA-duh graphic backfires, wildly popular with regular Americans" ( http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7003 ). It's a photo of a nuclear devastated Washington D.C.
I too sense a seething anger among many Americans, which is probably why the government has turned it sights squarely on us!
Dave
Rev. John Hagee among others have called for Iraq (Babylon) to be turned into a wasteland where not even insects could survive...in order to fulfill a 'Biblical' promise to the people of 'Israel' that the Israelis would rule all the lands 'Between the two rivers' (the Nile and Euphrates). This was in 2002 - before the 'Shock and Awe' campaign. Can one submit the names of Hagee, Parsley and others to the International Criminal Court for whipping this country into a genociadal frenzy leading to the deaths of over a million precious Iraqi lives? How is it done. They should never be able to travel without fear of arrest for war crimes.
re USAn 12:06pm
impeachment, as so many have pointed out, would be a national act of contrition, a necessary first step toward redeeming ourselves in the eyes of the world population; the details elicited at trial would surely bring charges of war crimes, treason and other "misdemeanors."
re JaneM 12:38pm
a million here, a million there, pretty soon you're talking a real holocaust (with apologies to the late sen everett dirksen).
Imagine what we can accomplish in another eight years? Or even in just two years. It won't take a hundred years to kill all of them Senator Mccain, and then dig up those buried WMDs.
"We have only begun to fight"!
If those backward Arabs would just accept Christianity and learn how to love their fellow man, the killings would cease. All our president is trying to do, is help them to join the human race, ease their pain and suffering, promote democracy and help them sell their oil. Why don't they stop their nasty behavour and become Americanized? Incredible. Bush will go down in history.
The title of this piece might just as easily have been Genocide in Iraq.
"Our statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception" Mark Twain - 1889
The numbers that have been massacred in Iraq matter little to the average American, because they are the "others"--non-white.
Over a million dead.....And nobody compares our monster with Hitler? What, our guy is only just a little slower with the genocide? Credit where credit is due here folks!
Most Americans would care if they were aware of it ~Blessthebeasts~. Our MSN is not giving the true news. ___ Naturally.
John Freeman;
bush doesn't compare favourably with hitler.
Hitler joined the army in WWI and served in the front lines, was wounded in the latter days of the war by mustard gas; bush got a spot in Texas, then deserted.
Hitler is said to have written a book; doubtful that bush could do as well, even with the best of ghost writers.
Hitler's early wars worked out well for Germany, a quick defeat of Czechoslovakia, Poland and France followed by a fuck up with the USSR; bush fucked up Afghanistan, Iraq and now threatens to fuck up Ian.
Hitler didn't smoke, do drugs and liked dogs; bush snorted coke and blew up small animals.
Without doubt, were someone to compare the two dictators bush would come off as a poor copy of hitler at best.
"And yet - there is hardly a whimper of protest anywhere in this country or in the world about the quite literal mass murder/genocide being committed by the "good" United States in Iraq."
Sure there is ...
Lots of local groups hold vigils, weekly protests. There are regularly national or coordinated local protests a couple of times a year.
Most Americans, when they get a chance to speak, say that they want this to end. They regularly tell pollsters that. And even though its hard to even speak to your representative, plenty tell them this all the time.
But, the key reason you don't see more of this, that you don't see much larger crowds at protests, is that most Americans have correctly figured out that the leaders don't care what they think.
We know the Republicans won't change policies. For all their talk about 'freedom' and 'democracy', what the people actually think is irrelevant to them. And we know now that the Democrats won't change policies. We've seen time and time again how the Dem leadership in Congress actually protects and sheppards through the Congress the bills that continue to fund the war.
So, why protest? Why visit your congress-critter to tell them to end the war? I mean, sure, its a good thing to do. If nothing else it makes you feel better that you've tried to do a bit to end it. But, when you know that none of the elected leaders are listening, when you know your protest or your comments won't change anything, how much effort do you put into doing this? If you know that a protest in DC won't change anything, do you spend the time and the money travelling to DC to join the protest?
But, the statement above is very much incorrect. Its not at all hard to get Americans to say they think the war was a mistake and that it needs to end soon. That's some 70% of the population according to the pols, and its not hard to find people who say that.
The problem is that we no longer have a republic where the opinions of the people matter. We don't have a free media that really reports news, so most of the 'news' about the protests never makes the 'news' broadcasts. We don't have a political system that responds to the citizens, so you don't see any change.
But that doesn't mean that its happening without a whimper of protest. It just means the protest is being ignored. That's a different problem.
You left out that Hitler was alao a painter. Hard to picture Incurious George being artistic.
You also failed to mention that Hitler largely created a political movement and philosophy. Yes, both were evil. But Hitler did have a hand in creating them. The party and its philosophy were both almost entirely Hitler's creations.
Dubya was picked out by a bunch of rich white guys, given speech instruction and was groomed for the role. The rich white guys then completely financed and organized Bush's campaigns for him. Dubya did very little except go along for the ride and be the puppet that provided the public face for the campaign.
If its over a million dead, plus about 4 million as refugees, that alone is about 20% of the Iraqi population (25 million is a nice round number to use). And that doesn't count the number of people wounded or maimed who didn't become refugees.
Samson -
i can't disagree with a single thing you said. However, 70% of Americans may very well want us out of Iraq, but that means that almost 1/3 of this country - a very large amount - still thinks we are "doing the right thing" there. And of the 70% who want us out of Iraq, a decent percentage of those also don't think there is anything wrong with the illegal wiretapping going on by the Bush cabal, or America using a bit of waterboarding on "them terr'usts", or habeas corpus being abolished, etc, etc, etc.
Americans - by and large - are nothing but sheep. And sheep get slaughtered. While I do acknowledge what you said about there being honest, concerned Americans that do fight the good fight - they are, sadly, in the minority. The "great silent majoriy" of which Nixon spoke 30 years ago are ignorant (by choice or by propaganda, or both) and blind to the evils their so-good country commits daily, both abroad and here at home. A
And don't forget: over 50% of these sheep voted for Bush less than 4 years ago, after a very long laundry-list of his crimes had been made public, even in the MSM.
At least, according to Sean Hannity, we shut down Saddam's son's rape rooms.
What this planet needs is a war of the worlds scale attack on civilization. The human race getting what it so deserves.
I Googled...kissenger depopulation national security council...and got over 2 million hits. Here is an especially interesting link that deals with the topic of this article, and indicates it's all part of a larger scheme going back several decades:
http://www.tribalmessenger.org/headlines/secret-gov-agenda-pt2.htm
The 30% of the population in the U.S. that thinks we're "doing the right thing" are the die-hard Rethuglicans. They stick together no matter what. If there are more Democrats than Republicans, why is it Republicans win elections??
Gee, thanks Diebold (voting machines owned by Republicans). By the way, WHAT are Democrats doing to prevent yet ANOTHER stolen election in November??
If 1.2 million civilians have died, only a tiny fraction were directly killed by US forces. It was apparent to many ME scholars, including those in State, the CIA and even the Pentagon, that removing Saddam would unleash this bloodshed.
As in so many other areas, our little neocon cowboy businessman and friends pushed the experts out of the way of their agenda. And now THEY say Obama is too inexperienced and can't be trusted with foreign policy! McCain will never surrender! The Repubs have to be sent packing. Unfortunately, to most wealthy people, its all about the tax cuts. What a country!
Estimates of the death toll from U.S. atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki are in the range of 210,000 - 250,000 (all civilians except for a few hundred soldiers).
George W. Bush and his co-horts are now the all time killers in U.S. history.
I propose a monument to such people on the Mall in D.C. I see a black granite column starting at ground level and heading straight down into the earth, etched with all the names of those responsible. A spiral staircase will lead viewers ever downward around the column until they reach the very bottom, where the last name will be etched. The bottom of the monument will be left as dirt so that it gets soaked in rain and turns to mud. People will be encouraged to spit in it to keep it moist and fetid. Lastly, so that the full meaning can be understood, the column will be highly polished so that at every turn the viewers will see their own reflection in it.
Kempatrick: you ask why can't they become Americanized? Look at what America is doing to every place they can stick their unwanted nose in? Why would anyone want to emulate us?
I truly wish that it was as simple as Christiaity being the answer but because members of the human race are basically war-mongers, I do not believe that the religion a nation chooses to embrace is going to stop the violence that is erupting all over the world.
I don't want to go partisan on you but one of the claims by the incumbent administration has been that if we leave Iraq, the violence will spread to the surrounding area. We have stayed and it seems like every other day, there is a report of violence breaking out anew somewhere other than Iraq.
Does anyone really stop and look at this situation with Iran and our doing everything possible to get into a war with them as well.
The whole premise for preventing them from developing nuclear capability is that they will then manufacture nuclear weaponry. They cannot simply enrich uranium for the purpose of nuclear power. Why, because WE say they can't.
All the emphasis is on controlling what Iran might or might not do.
On the other hand, because they are our "ally", Pakistan is allowed to continue to have nuclear capability. This, a nation whose corrupt leadership has been accused of complicity in the recent assassination of their own former prime minister. This, a nation who took something in the neighborhood of $11 billion from the U.S., which was intended to fight terrorism, much of which is unaccounted for and many suspect was used instead to build up an arsenal for a war with India. This, while Al Qaeda forces have infiltrated their country from Afghanistan and they have done nothing about it.
I understand that India has nuclear weapons also. We do not concern ourselves with whether our "ally" Pakistan engages in a nuclear war with them because we're too busy looking out for Israel, who we are claiming will be threatened by Iran.
Does it appear that we've just come full circle here? Probably because we have and no matter how much we analyze it; get ready for a McCain presidency in January 09 and BUSINESS AS USUAL!
And Delilah, didn't I talk to you about cutting Samson's hair?
After I first noticed Cindy Sheehan one day last week, another contributor went to the trouble of retyping what my message was about needing to camp out at the Arizona instead of Crawford ranch come January. She went on to "reprimand" me for my failure to notice Cindy's blogs earlier and that while she only reads about 1 out of 8, she was able to observe that Cindy had chimed in about 12 or more times.
Now, Cindy, where are you when I need you?
As a footnote, how many of you actually go for that crap about Iranian President Ahmadinejad not believing there was a holocaust.
I think it's more a case of "What can I say to really piss off those Israelis and derive the wrath of the U. S. at the same time"
There ya go, runt.
No one needs to be forced to become Christians and become Americanized. God, gods, Supreme Being, Great Spirit, whatever, who created us also created the Arabs and values them just as much as us. It's the few extremists that are a problem. Of course, the extremist terrorists don't kill as many innocent people as the Americanized military-industrial complex terrorists do.
And when will the mainstream media start telling the truth about the death toll and stop minimising it in an effort to diminish the seriousness of our crimes?