A lot of excelllent comments here. BTW when a comment is "awaiting moderation", it is only visible on our computer screen, no one else is reading it. Usually they are blocked out. ~Hollow Point~ I agree. It won't matter where one lives if the Arctic methane burps out in massive amounts.

Hi ~Paul K~, I understand all of the words you write but I have a problem understanding what point you are trying to make. I'm not sure if you think the potential for a massive methane gas release is a problem or not.

Another thing is, some people speak about 100 years or more into the future. We don't have 100 years to act, we may not have twenty. The Arctic methane release is not what is going to kill us, it's the "trigger" that will set off global warming such as no one has ever imagined and then the methane in the ocean's floors will bloom out and do us in. It has already begun we have to attempt to turn it around and that won't be easy. If we want to save the planet and humanity and all life on it, we'd better make an attempt.

We may have time to prevent the Arctic methane fom "burping" out, for as Atcheson states, "once that does there is NO turning back, no do overs". We must stop adding excessive Co2 into our atmosphere and the largest source of Co2 is from burning coal. Stopping that is the first and easiest step and it won't be easy.

We have to promote and develop truly clean energy and stop using coal and do it soon, like now. And there are several excellent alternatives to clean energy other than the so termed clean "nuclear power". It will require a world wide effort with all of the world's leaders sittng together, smoke a peace pipe and develop a credible plan. We have NO other options.

http://www.energybulletin.net/3647.html

And now for your exclusive up-to-the day methane weather:

As of May 28, 2008 there's a large clear water patch in the ice pack near Canada's Victoria Island, surrounded by a much larger patch of 50% cleared water. This hole was not present on May 28 of last year.

On the Atlantic side, unprecedented ice pack erosion is evident on a long line from the northeastern tip of Greenland, past Spitzbergen, to an open patch of water off of Russia's Ostrov Greem-Bell airstrip at 81 degrees north latitude. Furthermore, a broad area of ice sheet just above all of western Siberia between Severny Island and the Severnaya Zemlya island group is no longer solid. For comparison purposes it was solid in May 28, 2007. The north slope of Alaska is slightly ahead of last year. An area well above the coast of Eastern Siberia had an unusual clear patch of water last year. That particular area is currently about 25% clear this year, but is probably a couple of weeks behind last year's record-setting pace.

Overall, the arctic ocean is absorbing a bit more of the sun's heat now than it did in 2007 at this date. Combined with unusually weak and thin pack ice, much of which just re-froze last October, it looks like another year for a record polar ice pack melt and record heat absorption by the Arctic Ocean. It also looks like another year for recording a strong methane release.

For a better look at the ice pack melt, go to

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

I recommend running the 30 day look at the northern hemisphere, then comparing the date on the last image in that sequence to the 2007 historical record for that date.

Last night I submitted a few very informative links on this issue, including links to the just-released government report that admits the problem. Excerpt:
"The assessment starts with the question of cause: 'Studies that rigorously quantify the effect of different external influences on observed changes (attribution studies) conclude that most of the recent global warming is very likely due to human-generated increases in greenhouse gas concentrations,' stated the report."

These articles strengthen the arguments that ~KEM PATRICK~ frequently makes and basically put the anthropogenic GW-denialists out to pasture.

But CD never posted them (still says "Your comment is awaiting moderation" after more than 12 hours). Not impressed, CD. Timing is important, as these articles fall off the radar screen after a day or two.

Yes, I give at least a 20% possibility of an 80% melting of the Arctic ice pack in the next 120 days, followed by an enormous methane release ramping up in the next 10 years as the Arctic Ocean stores heat in its depths.

I'm a bit crass and the Arctic is not going to burp out, it's going to fart. You can't light belches.

In other words, you say John Atcheson and hundreds of other scientists are wrong? I still don't understand your points ~Paul~, Guess I'm dense.

Do you disagree with the article in that last link I posted? ___ If so, why and what sources do you refer to?

KEM:
I am moving to Canada have bought 55 acres of land and a nice home on it as well. Enough wood that just cutting down the dead stuff to last about 50 years. I will replant what I cut down with a 5 trees planted for each one I cut so I will never run out of wood.
Interesting solar cookers, have got an idea from reading it.
Be gone before I vote is OK with me. I want to get out and my kids as well.
As for your far north science, well pollution green house gasses can't read maps and will work their way any place the wind blows. I am not worried as the well is good and the 3000 gallon cistern holds enough rain water to last 6 months if it stops raining altogether. I can still post on CD as it is WWW.

Bring back the hippies!

It's time to start talking about economic sanctions against countries that aren't participating in significant reductions in carbon emissions.

sure, but the bill in the Senate is crap:

http://www.risingtidenorthamerica.org/wordpress/2008/05/29/boxer-lieberman-warner-bill-in-the-senate-dirty-energy-in-the-name-of-climate-protection/

There needs to be a grand sign to the world that we are in deadly crisis this moment. Something everybody will hear about. The equivalent of a global fire alarm.

LET"S CANCEL THE OLYMPICS!

And amid the universal outrage, while we have the Worlds attention - turn that attention to the real outrage.

The problem is, the methane's already coming out of the permafrost ...and as "immediate" action is utterly impossible, all that's really left to do is brace for a new planet.

Probably a better idea to urban-plan around new sea levels, and for the construction of massive desalinization plants for drinking water and farming ...because who know what the rainfall patterns are going to be?

On the lighter side, the latest Mars Lander is now preparing to dig into the rocky soil of Mars with it's robotic arm and determine if there is frozen water on that dead planet. So don't panic.

Just listen to ~GEO 522~, ~Mesanthorpe~, ~Lizrd~ and the other "experts" on the subject who often arrive at these threads and calmly explain that global warming and climate change are a myth and any who say otherwise are brain damaged, trouble making fear-mongers.

It matters not that the obvious evidence is abundently clear that something is amiss. It's only Mother Nature and the sun going through one of their normal periodic cycles and shit happens. So just go about your business and don't bother reading such trash as this left wing, liberal, fanatical hype.

Oh, and move to Canada before November so you won't have to vote.

You may wish to read this link, before you pack up.

http://www.farnorthscience.com/2007/09/26

If you bothered yourself to read that link, here is another three minute read which compliments it. It was publshed five years ago and the author warned us that we'd better act soon. We humans blew it off and didn't do anythng however. Who want's to hear this stupid shit.

This author, a highly regarded geologist, is now proven to be 100% correct, for there are hundreds of lakes in the Arctic which are now free of ice for the first time in millions of years and methne is boiling from them.

Methane??? Yes indeedy, it's a Green-house gas which is 25% more potent than Co2 and when enough of it escapes into our atmoshere, we are going to have the biggest weanie roast ever. You and I and our kids are gonna be the weanies and the guys and gals in the space station will watch the fireworks.

Well, it probably won't be that dramatic, we'll likely just all suffocate. We may have 10 to 20 years to do something intelligent to prevent it. Meanwhile, cross your fingers and hope that Mars robot finds water on Mars, ___ salt water. We can seed it with phytoplnakton and start all over.

http://www.energybulletin.net/3647.html

Which denyer will arrive here first and get a cookie?

I hope its a chocolate chip cookie.

Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum
Life
The PETM is accompanied by a mass extinction of 35-50% of benthic foramanifera (especially in deeper waters) over the course of ~1000 years - the group suffering more than during the dinosaur-slaying K-T extinction. Contrarily, planktonic foramanifera diversified, and dinoflagellates bloomed. Success was also enjoyed by the mammals, who radiated profusely around this time.

The deep sea extinctions are difficult to explain, as many were regional in extent (mainly affecting the north Atlantic): this means that we cannot appeal to general hypotheses such as a temperature-related reduction in oxygen availability, or increased corrosiveness due to carbonate-undersaturated deep waters. The only factor which was global in extent was an increase in temperature, and it appears that the majority of the blame must rest upon its shoulders. Regional extinctions in the North Atlantic can be attributed to increased deep-sea anoxia, which could be due to the slowdown of overturning ocean currents,[8] or the release and rapid oxidation of large amounts of methane.[21][verification needed]

In shallower waters, it's undeniable that increased CO2 levels result in a decreased oceanic pH, which has a profound negative effect on corals.[22] Experiments suggest it is also very harmful to calcifying plankton.[23] However, the strong acids used to simulate the natural increase in acidity which would result from elevated CO2 concentrations may have given misleading results, and the most recent evidence is that coccolithophores (E. huxleyi at least) become more, not less, calcified and abundant in acidic waters.[24] Interestingly, no change in the distribution of calcareous nannoplankton such as the coccolithophores can be attributed to acidification during the PETM.[24] Acidification did lead to an abundance of heavily calcified algae[25] and weakly calcified forams.[26]

The increase in mammalian abundance is intriguing. There is no evidence of any increased extinction rate among the terrestrial biota. Increased CO2 levels may have promoted dwarfing[27] - which may (perhaps?) have encouraged speciation. Many major mammalian orders, including the Artiodactyla, horses and primates, appeared as if from nowhere, and spread across the globe, 13,000 to 22,000 years after the initiation of the PETM.[27]

It's not a chocolate chip ~Ann~, it's a horse apple cookie.

I see you are still posting stuff you got from a scientific paper, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem of the Arctic thawing and the escape of over 400 gig-atons of methane gas into our atmosphere. Well done toots. ____ Next time the first denyer gets a cow pie.

Ya see toots, there are well over a thousand atmospheric, geologists and oceanic scientists who have other highly regarded opinions than that of the paper you have just posted.

Try finding Michael J Bentons's book, "When Life Nearly Died". You may find it is quite interesting and scientifically factual.___ Well proven science, unarguable by any who have a lick of sense or intellect.

Cow pies eh? Do I get the methane that came with it?

Ann R. Key - Chocolate chip cookies take the following ingredients -

shortening, vanilla extract, sugar, brown sugar, eggs, wheat flour, salt, soda, chocolate bits, and my recipe also calls for chopped walnuts. Now trust me on this -I'm a grandma after all. And that's not all - they need to bake at 375 degrees for 10-12 minutes, and this takes a considerable amount of electricity or gas.

Now all those ingredients need the right amounts of sunlight, clean water, good soil and TLC to grow. Between them, they also need world-wide transportation to get to my (or your) kitchen.

I think I see the demise of the chocolate chip cookie in my crystal ball -

So Sorry, no chocolate chip cookies today.

Everyone knows this is just global warming hysteria by a bunch of arrogant self proclaimed scientists who want to be in charge of something.

Their models didn't predict the arctic ice would melt so fast, so they must be wrong. Then GW theory is wrong. How about that guy who flip flopped on hurricanes? Gore was wrong about Kilamanjaro! Are these guys mixed up or what!

Stop listening to the tree huggers. Trust in God and Sean Hannity friends! Anyone wanna buy some south New Jersey seashore property?

We are about to be farted out of existence by Gaia. She's no lady!

Those cookies can be made in a solar oven.

http://solarcooking.org/plans/

Thanks KEM for your wisdom and horribly depressing links. Smile because you're changing a few minds every hour by sticking yourself out there.

Piece of SHIT ! The scientists are just monied elites just like the politicians and corporations. Where the FUCK is CD when non-monied individuals get cast aside or even arrested for coming up with new scientific discoveries that could even go so far as to save the planet? And what about ending the war on drugs and giving a non-global-warming biofuel such as hemp a chance in the market? Just think. 26000 industrial uses and using that oil to manufacture durable and better quality products that last longer compared to petroleum manufactured shit. But I guess that doesn't fucking matter. I now return you to your "WAAAAAAH ! GLOBAL WARMING ! GLOBAL WARMING ! WAAAAAAH !" BULLSHIT.

Reefer Madness?

I totally agree with you about the hemp, the most malingered, ignored and perhaps the most important crop, but you get the cow pie ~FREDERICK~. _______ I hate you.

Yep ~Maple Fudge~, those are depressing links, honest and factual however. The denyers never bother to read and think about them, or address them and debate them, they just mouth off or change the subject. Thank you for posting the link on the solar ovens BTW, we have one and use it frequeantly, free and totally clean fuel.

"If sunbeams were weapons of war, we would have had solar energy centuries ago."

~Sir George Porter~ Nobel laureate in chemistry.

KEM PATRICK

i don't know why people get so 'het' up about your posts............but looks like you scared them all off. and personally, i don't (and never have) understand why it's important to see if there has been life (or is) on any other planet. i mean, what's the use? it's not like we can all GO there. if we were meant to be there, we would be. we have our own little planet here and should take care of it. but we seem to have embarked on a path of self destruction by way of stupidity. we might be intelligent, but stupid with it............

Here is another really good one the denyers can shove up alongside of their heads. Don't it smell bad in there gang? ___ Damn.

http://www.healthylakes.org

Hi ~COCO~. They get het up because I post frequently and I'm the denyers primary target.
We then insult one another from behind the safety of our computer screens. Stupidity of humanity is the proper "terminol-igity".

We'll never get any colony started on Mars ~COCO~. It takes ten months to get there. By the time two dozen in a space craft were halfway there, they would be killing each other arguing about Nader, Obama and Hillary.

BTW, ~Mesanthorpe~, that is a very good link you posted on the other climate change thread about over fishing the oceans. Of course it has little to do with the issue of climate change caused by global warming. You got any other good links, maybe some about saving the pigmy owls or desert tortise?

KEM PATRICK

here's a good link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InV0cVH6KZc

I think going to Mars was cool. I loved watching Sagan's Cosmos when I was a kid.

Methane is a lovely thing. Not only is it over 20 times more potent to the atmosphere, but when it breaks down, it breaks down into CO2-hurray! Twice the fun!(That's my high school chemistry coming back to haunt me).

Maplefudge-My husband made me a crude, yet effective solar oven a few years ago for Christmas. I have yet to trust it to make any kind of meat, but I've done loads of muffins, cookies, biscuits, mini pizzas, and my personal fave-melted chocolate for fondue.

We cook turkeys in ours ~Recycle~, it takes about five hours for a 12 pounder and we bake bread and anything that one can cook in an oven. The temp always reaches 350 to 375. It's great for stews and bean or veggie soups, "casseroles", ect. Our big one has a glass lid, the box is insulated and it's an oven. The smaller one we use when fishig or camping.

Thanks coco ....excellent link....

Voldemort does exist....and he's living in the US....not in the white house that's just a clone

risingtidena: Thank you for your link.
Yes, we must persuade our Congress members to recognize and fund ways to slow down global warming. However, the Lieberman-Warner Bill includes provisions to fund more nuclear power plants. That is unacceptable. Instead, the money, which is in the billions, should be put toward funding cleaner and safer alternative energies. Take that nuclear funding out and put it where we really need it--wind, water, biofuel (from crops not needed for food) and other as-yet undeveloped clean energy sources. Also fund more efficient means of distributing these energy sources so all people can take advantage of it, not just the rich. Just a little step, but we need to start.

"A new report examines the impacts global warming will likely have on the Great Lakes —from more sewage overflows to lower lake levels. The report finds that the Great Lakes can lessen the impact of global warming or become global warming's victim — ***it all depends on Congress***."

If that's the case, we're doomed.

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
- Mark Twain

All Congresses and Parliaments have a kindly feeling for idiots, and a compassion for them, on account of personal experience and heredity.
- Mark Twain's Autobiography

KEM PATRICK

Don't be so negative. Everything will be fine.

Just kidding :-)

We are screwed
-----
Methane as a greenhouse gas

Methane in the Earth's atmosphere is an important greenhouse gas with a global warming potential of 25 over a 100-year period. This means that a methane emission will have 25 times the impact on temperature of a carbon dioxide emission of the same mass over the following 100 years. Methane has a large effect for a brief period (about 10 years), whereas carbon dioxide has a small effect for a long period (over 100 years). Because of this difference in effect and time period, the global warming potential of methane over a 20 year time period is 72. The Earth's methane concentration has increased by about 150% since 1750, and it accounts for 20% of the total radiative forcing from all of the long-lived and globally mixed greenhouse gases.

Sudden release from methane clathrates

At high pressures, such as are found on the bottom of the ocean, methane forms a solid clathrate with water, known as methane hydrate. An unknown, but possibly very large quantity of methane is trapped in this form in ocean sediments. The sudden release of large volumes of methane from such sediments into the atmosphere has been suggested as a possible cause for rapid global warming events in the Earth's distant past, such as the Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum of 55 million years ago.
One source estimates the size of the methane hydrate deposits of the oceans at ten trillion tons (10 exagrams). Theories suggest that should global warming cause them to heat up sufficiently, all of this methane could again be suddenly released into the atmosphere. Since methane is twenty-three times stronger (for a given weight, averaged over 100 years) than CO2 as a greenhouse gas; this would immensely magnify the greenhouse effect, heating Earth to unprecedented levels (see Clathrate gun hypothesis).

Release of methane from bogs

Although less dramatic than release from clathrates, but already happening, is an increase in the release of methane from bogs as permafrost melts. Although records of permafrost are limited, recent years (1999 to 2007) have seen record thawing of permafrost in Alaska and Siberia.
Recent measurements in Siberia show that the methane released is five times greater than previously estimated.

GLOBAL WARMING ARROGANCE

Ocean acidification is another self perpetuating consequence of carbon pollution. Included also are the melting ice sheets which absorb rather than reflect heat, as the melting permafrost releases more CO2 & methane, and the list goes on. Inundation of low lying areas, spread of tropical diseases to temperate latitudes, sea life destruction from changing ocean chemistry, & currents, are only some potential consequences.

The US rejections of Kyoto, and now the Bali Conference, underscore the dangerous control that special interests exercise over this administration's policies. Their distortions of scientific data typifies their unconscionable war on science. Evidence linking carbon pollution to warming has long been as close to certain as science can be. Its causes, consequences, and mitigation requirements have been documented by many dedicated environmental organizations including The Union of Concerned Scientists.

Special interests argue that the current warming trends follow historic warming cycles, and hence reflect natural weather patterns--but they omit obvious differences: The earlier warming trends developed at slower rates which permitted the ecosystems to adapt. Morever they resulted from temporary natural events, which allowed transitions back to normal temperature patterns--by contrast, the current warming patterns result from artificial causes that will only intensify unless mitigated.

Often overlooked is the fact that, the same measures needed to mitigate global warming would be necessary even if it were no issue. Conservation, alternative energy development, anti- pollution refinements, etc are essential for other vital environmental reforms such as air and water quality, reductions in toxic waste generation, land preservation, etc.

Contrary to right wing assertions, measures to reduce greenhouse gases could only improve our economy by lessening our trade deficits, and improving our security by reducing our dependance on foreign oil. We could also regain some of our lost world respect that has resulted from our rejection of Kyoto while arrogantly contributing disproportionally to carbon pollution. With our participation in international efforts, China & India could no longer use our non-compliance as an excuse for their non-participation.

The environmental and social damage from our indifference to carbon pollution can only worsen if we allow this administration, guided special interests, to continue their war against our planet.

First, I was disappointed in the bloggers today. No hemp, no chocolate chip cookie. We live in a sad and unfriendly world.

Second, we must realize that it will be years before 1700 scientists recognize that Mother Nature is gassing us all. Scientists are a conservative bunch and the wingnuts have vowed to ruin anyone's career who steps out of line. Think of a bunch of penguins waiting for the leopard seal to have gone away, and one penguin gives it a desperate try.

Third, we must realize that commondreams.org might or might not have that much courage. They don't like being slapped down by the wingnuts either with claims of "excessive worry" even if the possibility of a huge and immediate eco-disaster exists. So, we blog about the BIG FART under any climate change story that fits.

Fourth, nobody's talking about surviving this eco-disaster.

How do you filter the methane out of your house air, for example? Do members of the palm family of plants eat more methane out of the house air than other plants? What edible plants survive a high-methane environment?

In public can you breathe through a charcoal filter to take methane out of the air?

The more we talk about surviving the eco-disaster, the more we get people who will admit it's a real possibility. These people will also admit that it's a sin against the future of all humanity, and maybe do something. That's when Congress can start to act against this national and world threat.

Methane from bong hits to increase global warming and raise sea levels!

I'm not going to guess on how much the Arctic is going to thaw this summer, but I will say it don't look very promising for us, based upon what we can see with our own eyes.

I don't often offer my opinons concerning such matters as this. I do agree with the opinions of some scientists and often state their opinions, or back them up that I agree with them. I do wish they are all wrong, but strong and often unarguable scientific evidence supports their findings and views.

I will be happy to debate their opinions with anyone.

I highly recommend the book "Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" to educate yourself about humankind's energy systems.

I highly reccomend Michael J. Bentons's book _______ "When Life Nearly Died"

It fully explaines what Methane Gas will do to life on Earth and has done twice previously. ___ We are on the edge of the third time.

You speled reccomend wrong.

Kem
how did they know it happened 2 times before? Did they find something in the ice that won't be there after Bush is finished? I guess we better write down this time so we can be reminded

How did they know ~HOLLOW POINT~? Scientists and geologists study rocks fossils, earth samples, and thousands of ancient ice samples. Based upon spectro-analysis of such, they know exactly how much methane, Co2, and all other minerals were present during any prior time frame going back millions of years.

Based upon the enormous amount of methane which was present in the atmosphere during two seperate time frames, they know without question that almost all life on Earth was eradicated within hours, down to the microbal level at one time and most life was eradicated the next time.

Now that is NOT "MY" scientific research and opinions, it is that of many highly qualifed scientists, who spend their entire adult lives studying the Earth's geological history. Read the links I offered if you have any other questions on the issue and perhaps you will find satisfactory answers. Perhaps not. There are thousands of other papers available on the net on the subject for any who have an interest.