Let us examine what we achieve so far, and what are the difference in our morality and world views:

Holocaust:
----
- You bring material the "proof" that Jews planed the Holocasut.
- I showed the the Palestinian leadership was actually allied with Nazi Germany. (Haj Amin al Hussaini was a convicted criminal in Nirenberg trails)

Targeting civilities:
——————
- You (Like 75% of the Muslims in the ME) support suicide bombing against innocent civilities to "Defend Islam", and view them as a "legitimate right of resistance" (nahida May 23rd, 2008 7:30 am)
- I appose targeting civilities. No matter the circumstances nor what is written in some old book or another.

Ethnic Cleansing:
—————–
- You refuse to recognize the Ethnic Cleansing that took place in the Arab world against Jews from 1947. (More than 1000 Jews massacred, 856,000 Jews were driven out (accrrding to Arab sources), leaving behind property worth $300 billion)
- I do recognize the "Nakba" and that 711,000 Palestinians, many of whom innocent civilian - were driven out of Israel.

History:
——–
- In your comments, you've never admitted that Jews once (In biblical times) had an independent kingdom in the land of Israel. You have never admitted that the cause for the war of 1948 is the Arab refusal to accept UN partition plan. You never admitted that the Arabs were the ones who initiated the War, which brought the 'catastrophe' upon the Palestinians.
- I never tried to hide History.

Peace:
——-
- You refuse to even talk about peace with Zionists like me, unless we first agree to capitulate to your ultimatum which is to turn the clock back to exactly the time that suite you best.
- I say that we should negotiate peace, for a better future to both sides (BOTH). A Win / Win peace. One which will make the lives of both Jews and Palestinians better than what it is NOW.

I think this summarize our differences, wouldn't you agree?

presence_aka_Namaste,

I truly am in favor of a Win / Win peace. One which will be better for both Jews and Arabs when comparing to current situation. Is it not logical for Liberal Zionist like me to wish the situation better for everyone (Including Jews) than what is currently is?

Why do you question my sincerity and call my logical conclusion a lie?

Those of you who stand afar and judge don't know what you are talking about. Even Nahida who has spent the last 40 of her 48 years in England is viewing this situation from afar.

presence_aka_namaste, you talk about my propoganda? What about all of you who don't experience this situation on a daily basis from the Israel that you are all so judgmental about. presence_aka_namaste, your intentional lower-case use of Jewish and all of it's forms show your feelings about Jews in general. How many of you standing in judgment have had your entire families wiped out of existence because of your religion?

mikepeters, your very existence in this discussion is offensive. You have little to contribute to the discussion other than your hateful, inappropriate words which have no factual basis.

Letto-I have been following the posts but until you started adding your comments, I felt bullied and thank you for giving me the strength to once again post my comments in response to the hatred spewed here.

Those of you who stand in judgment, I suppose the United States should return this country to the Native Americans who the land was stolen from? Where is your stand on that atrocity? Or is it okay because it's been hundreds of years at this point that they have been displaced to the worst bits of land and have had their populations decimated. I really want to know what all of you who post that the only solution is to return the land to the Palestinians and have all Israeli's leave immediately feel about giving the United States back to the Native Americans. Or is that different, because it wasn't Jews who are involved with that theft?

You who use the word Nazi in this forum, especially with regard to Jews, you don't even begin to know how offensive you are. Shame on you!

There are Palestinians and Israelis who are working side by side to make things work. There are talks going on right now, but it seems to me that

There are Palestinians and Israelis who are working side by side to make things work. There are talks going on right now, but it seems to me that the only solution for you is for the Israeli's to leave!

presence_aka_Namaste, That is true, I do appose targeting civilians.

Last time I checked my name was not Menachem Begin.

---
You, on the other hand justify Suicide bombing against civiliants, as long as they're Jews.

OK, How about the following:

- A peaceful Palestinian state along side Israel.
- Palestine and Israel will recognize each other's right to exist.
- No more killing.

Sounds like a Win Win for both sides?

We can work other Win / Win details later.

The only abomination here, other then Nahidia's terrible poetry and incessant scrolling, is that idiots like Tutu continue to blame israel for conditions in gaza. Why is egypt not considered to be "blockading" gaza? Gaza claims to be a foriegn country, you fools, and israel has no responsiblity to them whatsoever.

Truly, no other people on earth but the jews would be expected to help people who want to murder them.

presence_aka_Namaste, The Irgun was founded in 1931.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

Palestinian Violance against Jews started before that date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

Are you claiming that all Zionists are the same?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I'm a Liberal Zionist.
Menachem Begin was a Revisionist.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/28/9249/
presence_aka_Namaste May 31st, 2008 4:26 am

You also appose freedom of speech, and if anyone dare to bring data which doesn't support your anti-israeli hate agenda - you say:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/28/9249/
presence_aka_Namaste May 31st, 2008 4:26 am

"God has prepared a place for people like you"
"when the investigations follow the money trail, you will be indicted as a participating war criminal"
"what you do (freedom of speech) is illegal, immoral, and wicked."

presence_aka_Namaste "And where did I ever condone or praise blowing people up ?"

You didn't condone or praised. You just said it's legit.

Letto, why don't they move your Zionist Israel to Europe, Miami Beach, Beverly Hills, Skokie, Brooklyn, or Pluto and let the Palestinians live in Peace? Why should Palestinians pay for the holocaust against the Jews in WWII? Shouldn't Europe compensate for that? Palestinians owe you nothing.

open-minded, What did you expect? nahida clearly said she wants the world to hear her, and not to ask questions.

B.T.W I'm also waiting for an unanswered question by Forextrader. He never answered why Israel has no right to exist while his own country does.

The Israelis and the Palestinians are in a formally declared state of war. Under international law, blockades are quite legal and acceptable during wartime. When the Palestinians are ready to live in peace, all they have to do is to recognize Israel and end their war. Blaming Israel for the fact that the Palestinians don't want to let the Jews live in peace on their own land is ridiculous, and quite counter-productive; it's also quite anti-Semitic.

Too bad those who always play Israel as the ultimate victim don't recognize that Palestinians have the same rights as Israelis and all human beings -- the right to live on their land without fear of having their homes demolished, of being shot or imprisoned without charges. There is no excuse for the killing of innocent civilians by either side. But let's be honest here -- the Israeli military has killed a hundred times more Palestinians, and jailed more than 10 thousand -- many without charges to this day after languishing for years in Israeli prisons. Israel's actions are recognized throughout the world (except for the U.S. and Britain) for what they are -- apartheid!!! Stop using anti-Semitism as a way to stop any discussion about Israel's actions. But there are many, many Jews who do not support Israel's actions, and I don't think you can call them anti-Semitic. If ever there was a humanitarian crisis, Palestinians are it -- by the brutal and illegal actions of Israel, who still have not honored the Charter laid out by the U.N. years ago. Israel is in continual violation. The world knows it. It's about time Israel started being honest about their role in creating that crisis.

Hey Mikep, when is Israel going to recognize Palestine?

And stop this anti-semitic crap...the Palestinians are also semitic!

"I honor the place in you in which the entire Universe dwells, I honor the place in you which is of Love, of Integrity, of Wisdom and of Peace. When you are in that place in you, and I am in that place in me, we are One."

Hmmmmm. Sort of doesn't sound like your screen name is all that accurate from your hateful postings Namaste...

I am right with you MikeP as are most progressives here. The vocal minority continues to pretend to represent us, but they do not.

Keep speaking truth.

So NancyH if the world knows so well that Israel is wrong, why do all these progressive wonderful countries trade with them? If Israel is so wrong and if everyone else is so right, why is there not a boycott?

Trading partners with Israel:
US 12.4%,
Belgium 8.2%,
Germany 6.7%,
Switzerland 5.9%,
UK 5.1%,
China 5.1%

Note that adds only to 43.4% of total trade, that means that there are a LOAD of countries that deal with Israel and account for 60% of their foreign trade. That is a heck of a lot of countries that are actively NOT boycotting Israel. In the real world, it doesn't matter what anyone says, the only thihg that matters is that people deal with Israel every day and regardless of whether or not they hold their noses, they deal and that means money and that in turn means power. Israel has it, Palestine doesn't and unless that changes, then there will be no chages.

open-minded, I managed to identify one of the pictures that was published by nahida.

It is from the 2006 Gaza beach blast that killed the entire family of seven-year-old Huda Ghaliya.

There is a dispute about the cause for the explosion.
Some say it was an Israeli artillery shell that missed its kassam rocket launcher target by 250 yards.
Others say it was a Hamas planted land mind that killed the family.

Regardless of the causes, the wounded were treated in Israel.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Gaza_Beach_Libel.asp

>>Run over any more Rachels recently ?<<

Nope. There don't seem to be any over there any more. That's my point. Where are you? What have you done for your cause? She was willing to die for it. What about you? I am on the other side and I support Israel with my money. I stand up for Israel here and for the progressive majority that wants peace before all things. A progressive majority that gets shouted down by those here that don't support peace unless it is on their terms; those of you that are really only left wing Republicans - unthinking dogmatic shills that would rather see a Mideast awash in blood and fire rather than sit down to make a real lasting peace.

Re Archbishop Tutu:

Why would anyone pay attention to this Arab-loving and obviously anti-semitic raver?

AIPAC has metastized.

mikep,

you're a racist, not a progressive. international law governs relations between two, sovereign states. unless, there is some groundbreaking story that i haven't heard, there is no palestinian state in existence. therefore, there is NO justification in international law to blockade a territory that is under your own sovereign auspices. invoking international law to support this, would be similar to invoking international law to support a US blockade of a Native American reservation.

Secondly, the Palestinian Authority has already recognized Israel in the Oslo Accords, through the Letters of Mutual Recognition. So, according to your logic, the Palestinians have recognized Israel and, therefore, want peace. So, according to your logic (i.e. non-recognition), the non-recognition of a Palestinian State by Israel means that they are not interested in peace, right?

So, what excuses will you try to use to justify a racist, apartheid genocide of the Palestinian people? Why don't you just tell the truth? That you wish for the elimination of the Palestinians from "their own land". This is not "progressive", it is barbaric.

The Israeli Zionist movement, by insisting on keeping possession of Palestine and expanding Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian lands is destroying the Jewish state it was its dream to create by its own actions of the continual brutal genocidal persecution of the Palestinian people.

>>Well GOOSE-2-STEP — did your boss come by and force you soften your INITIAL answer about creaming more Rachels ?<<

No. My initial response was no, I have not crushed any more Rachaels, there don't appear to be any more there. I elaborated on it because I think it really is the point. There aren't people from all over the world doing things for the Palestinians, there are people all over the world doing business with Israel.

I am self employed as a artist in the SF Bay Area. Thanks though for the thoguht.

BTW, your animated gifs make your postings look like they belong on MySpace rather than here. Maybe just state what you have to say clearly and simply. Might get more information across...

>>This is so not congruent with reality, and humanity - as your calling Archbishop Demond Tutu a racist is way over the to<<

I didn't. You confuse me with another poster. I have had the pleasure of meeting the Archbishop during Apartheid in Johannesburg at a church in Soweto in 1983. I have no problem with him holding an opinion on the situation. He is far from a racist.

I think the general tone of these posts perfectly reflects the manner in which we solve our problems on this planet in 2008. We posture, we insult, we attack,we wallow in our ignorant arrogance. It's pathetic and offensive to read entries such as those above.
Mr Tutu is speaking truth--the blockade is an abomination. Some Palestinians are warmongers, the majority of the victims are not.
All people of Arabic descent are Semites, so the term "anti-Semitic" can be equally used for those who favor attacking the Palestinians just as much as those who favor attacking the Israeli.
Justice demands that the situation be reviewed. many, many Israeli citizens are as shocked and horrified as is Mr Tutu. And yes, we are complicit.

>>(1.) . Grandiosely asserts (i.e. t☹tal ☁ lie ☠) being part of A progressive majority that gets shouted down…" - when at very best zionistas are like 0.25% of all Americans ( one of eight jews )<>(2.) . Throws the stale/rancid Israeli "negotiation platform" "don't support peace unless it is on their terms", back upon those supporting the hundreds of denied Palestinian peace proposals. Are your eyes Brown ?<>(3.) . Asserts that I'm only "really left wing Republicans", as IF even if so, that changes the inhumanity at stake here.<>(4.) . He must be referring to himself with comment "unthinking dogmatic shills", as the evidence above clearly does show <>(5.) . Again he must be referring to himself with comment "unthinking do would rather see a Mideast awash in blood and fire rather than sit down to make a real lasting peace.", as the evidence of Zionistas own "transfer" clearly does show that they want them all dead and gone however the means<<

I have read here often how it would be nice for Israel to be invaded, wiped from the map, removed, undone, overthrown and so on. I even think I remember you saying some of these things. SOmething about wanting a war that would end Israel. I think you know that that would mean nuclear war and an end to all the Arab capitals and cities and the creation of a hole in the center of Mecca. That would not do ANYONE a favor.

Try to look at your postings and see if you think they come from a thinker or a 12 year old that just learned how to change their font in MySpace.

The morally barren philosophy of Zionism becomes clearer with each post of its supremacist supporters.

Please keep it up. You are your own worst enemies.

mikep - how can Palestinians be anti-semitic? Is it only Jews that are Semites?

Not to the same scale in Canada, but still similar to Palestine is the situation for many Canadian First Nations, aboriginal Peoples; and not the same because the tribes are not all in one location, but in many across Canada.

Apartheid there and here, both. Like Israel is extremely criminal, so is the Canadian govt; just that we will seldom hear or read anything about this, unless we know of good resources and use them. Two of them are the following.

www.MohawkNationNews.com
www.hiddenFromHistory.org

And that hidden history (both websites, actually speaking of hidden and critical information) is recent, while also continuing.

DESMOND TUTU NEXT POPE!!! (well, dreams are free...aren't they!?)

Namaste-

Obviously yoga doesn't work for you. I only use the words "Namaste" at the end of my yoga class when I am completely accepting of everything around me and I am at peace. Your level of anger against people posting differently from you is way over the top and a very harsh reaction. It doesn't fit with the name, "Namaste".

To the others regarding the term anti-semitic, it does indeed include all semitic people, but in this country, the term has come to represent anti-Jewish sentiment. Many of these postings which are Anti-zionist are Anti-Jew, I feel. It's coming across loud and clear and makes me feel very uncomfortable to be part of this community.

open-minded,, how is anti-zionist become anti-jew? Two different animals....

How is it that Zionist creatures like Goose and Mikep worm their way into a progressive site like Common Dreams? Frankly, the world would be a better place without that Zionist Phantom State aka "Israel".

It is really interesting how "liberal", which to my mind means open-minded, creative, able to process/comprehend new ideas, etc. some of the people on this board are. You say one thing that goes against the herd and the bleating becomes defeaning.

Tutu, is right, the blockade of Palestine is an "abomination". He is also right in that shooting rockets at civilians is an atrocity.

The thing is most of the people here are willing to forget that second part and just repeat the same old refrain, "Israel, bad! Palestinians, good!" It really gets amusing some times, how far people are willing to bend over backwards to ignore the stupidity, the mendacity, the utter corruption of the Palestinian governments and their self-destructive actions.

The term anti-Semitic has indeed been co-opted by American Jews, few of which are actually Semitic in origin.

There is a reason for this, and my guess is that it lends legitimacy to the concept of "Right of Return," for one can certainly not "return" to a place one has never been and has no historical ties to. So constantly claiming that all Jews are Semites reinforces this myth.

I also believe that most of the vitriolic "anti-Jew" comments here are in large part attributable to the infuriating propaganda and moral depravity of the Zionists who show up to rebut any and all articles which criticize the criminal state of Israel. The posters are reacting to them, not Jews in general, as is evidenced when pro-peace and justice Jews show up to offer their opinions and are treated civily and with appreciation. And all of us are aware of valiant efforts made by both Israeli and American Jews on behalf of the Palestinian people and in an effort to secure peace.

Of course the Zionists desire to conflate any and all criticism of Israel (even by Jews themselves) as anti-Jewish hatespeech. Intelligent people realize this is bullshit.

This is proven on the hour here, by the hundreds of posters that rail against our own government, as well as the stupidity and even amorality of many of our own citizens, while affirming their desperate hope that a country they love can be changed for the better. Only on right-wing blogs would they be called anti-American.

It is criminal that on any blog, right or left, one can be tarred as a "Jew-hater," a Nazi or an anti-Semite for believing that Israel, a country that violates every known law and convention defining legal behavior for a state, is in the wrong and that the Palestinians deserve justice and human rights.

Hopefully, a time is soon coming when supporting the thugs in Israel will be not just an embarrassment (like watching and believing Fox News), but a crime.

'Residents in the Beit Hanoun area were summoned to a local square by Israeli troops with loudhailers, before dozens were taken away'.

How can any intelligent person miss the similarities to the nazi round-up of Jews in ww11?

And just how is the Gaza blockade different from the Warsaw ghetto?

Mikep is only kidding. No one could possibly as stupid as he pretends to be. He's most likely a Mossad agent in drag.

The 'international community'..it sounds impressive, until you take a closer look, and realise this consists of right wing governments, who behave as if they were dictators, ignoring their own publics views

Again, the likes of goose2 step(whatever) and Mikep have played swiftboaters to distract us from a reported 'war crime' by a revered cleric who suffered similar abuse at the hands of the Afrikaaner government.

The horrific, crime against humanity tactics of the misnamed IDF are the subject.

Look at all the time wasted in anal intercouse with these two and others like them.

Namaste - Your kind words are much appreciated. And I understand the fury quite well. Lived with it for decades. Still do.

Nahida,
thank you for sharing your obvious pain and suffering caused by these injustices.

Amin

.
Bishop Tutu has seen Apartheid. He has endured living in the South African Police State. He has witnessed murder and torture in his homeland.

His U.N. Fact Finding Mission has seen first-hand the heinous prison camp conditions that the Palestinian people are living under, and dying in.

As a man of God, he calls out to the consciences of the world to condemn the actions of the State of Israel.

Before peace can be negociated, the Gaza Blockade must be ended.....

Massacres and Refugee camps must be ended. The State of Palestine must be proclaimed and recognized.

The United States must stop underwriting Israel. Spend that 65, Billion U.S. Dollars right here in the U.S.A.

.

Yes, especially the Europeans have been supine, as Carter has pointed out recently.

Shame on US and EU for being bought by Israel.

Nahida, I love your brain, your thoughts and more your INTELECT!! IT'S INDIVIDUALS LIKE you that keep me in a possitive mode that HUMANITY - - - - JUST MIGHT MAKE IT IN THE FUTURE eg PEOPLE CARE! Keep writing please. Love reading you!

nahida,

I once again ask you: What do you want the Israelis to do? What would it take for the Israeli government to make restitution to the Palestinian people?

I ask because I do not know. I do not support the apartheid situation in Gaza or the West Bank. I do not support the wanton killing that is occurring at the hands of the Zionist Israelis (knowing that not all Israelis support the oppression). However, neither do I support the bombing of civilians in Israel.

Is there a way to peacefully bring the justice you and I desire? If the only way that you suggest is for the Israelis to leave Israel, I don't see how that will happen, the same as the non-indigenous peoples of the Americas will not leave the lands that they now call home.

Gandhi once said, "Be the change you want to see in the world." Is there a way we can all do this? What do we want to see? I know that the Zionist boot is on the throat of the Palestinians, but has all the fighting brought peace to either side? The Israeli government is now ruled by the same fascist neocons as is the U.S. government. I want to see both gone - but I want to replace them with peaceful governments that embody justice and respect and want to see the same of all Arab governments.

How do we get there?

Salaam.

A big part of the Western world turns a blink eye as far as Israel is concerned. Many politicians in Holland, where I live, support Israel unconditionally, ignoring all kinds of international treaties and UN-resolutions. Why they do this, I don't know: some of them may be wacky Christians, just like they abundan in the US, or they feel they can't let Israel, inhabited by many Jews, down after the Holocaust. Whatever their motives, they are not helping anybody in the Middle East.