I mean, really, is all the scrolling necessary?

nahida June 2nd, 2008
9:53 am

You are right jewbacca. I don't know how I could have been wrong all these years, but now I truly see you are 100% right. Thank you and ashallah!

Jewbacca you always have to have the last word don't you? You are lucky I am not the US President. I would cut off all aid to "Israel" in a heart beat. But don't you worry, your heros Bush and McCain will protect you.

Yea nahida, now you can interrupt the discussion again!

Why not just go back to "palestine" and go after REAL israelis?

Forex, the holocaust has absolutely nothing to do with this. The palestinians pay for the crimes of the palestinians (and their arab bretheran), many of which happened before israel was even a country, and before WWII. The Hebron massacre of 1929 is one example. As usual, you pro-arabs don't know history.

I completely support the settlements and I think my support is justified. Look what happened when israel pulled its settlements out of gaza, peace? Of course not. Pulling the sttlements would just bring the rockets and suicide bombs that much closer.

And of course "relocating israel to the moon" is, well, I suppose it doesn't need the "quasi" part in front of it. Its just plain genocidal. Be sure tyo tell your "jewish relatives" of your plans for israel, see what they say about that...

Jewbacca: where do you get this foolishness that I support "quasi genocide"? My suggestions are in the interest of Peace. Your's on the other hand promote more bloodshed and resentment. It is morally wrong to make Palestinians pay for a crime they never committed in the first place because the Zionists don't have the guts to demand reparations from the Europeans (namely Germans) who have truly wronged them. They go after innocent people who had nothing to do with that. Also, so me of your ilk have posted messages on these boards justifying the despicable settlements. Guess many Zionists view stealing land as somehow virtuous. And then you have the nerve to accuse me of being "quasi genocidal?" (whatever the hell that means). As long as the US government steals my tax dollars to support your Zionist fantasy nation, you won't get me to shut up about it! Never!

Nahida, why even post here when all you do is scroll the discussion? You're the worst troll on this site and you never contribute anything of any intellectual value, you just try to break up conversations. Its about time commondreams put a stop to this as it makes it difficult to discuss anything with serious posters.

Foxe, claiming you have jewish relatives doesn't change the quasi-genocidal comments you have made about israel. Why on earth should it be re-located? Because racist arabs don't like its present location? What if someone didn't like your present location, would it be on YOU to move away? Obviously, israel isn't going anywhere without genocide, so to claim you arn't calling for it is nonsense. Unfortunetly, I doubt after all of nahida scrolling that you'll even see my post.

Openminded: my step brother's and my two stepsisters' biological father is Jewish and we all get along great.

Thank you Letto for your research. I guess presenting images without any facts to back them up continues their propoganda. People in this forum just want to jump on any little bit of imagery and blame Israel without any reliable sources. In the beginning of this discussion, I was accused of watching Fox News for my information. It seems that that is exactly what my accusers are doing. They continue with a lot of emotion without any hard facts to back up their accusations. Anyone intelligent enough to be part of the CD community should know that just because it's found on the internet doesn't mean it's fact. Without providing sources of information who are known to be reliable is just irresponsible.

forextrader: With your choices of locations for Israel to relocate, you are showing prejudice and bias with regard to Jews. Do you even know any Jews? You seem to buy into the stereotypical Jew portrayed on network television.

Letto: I am from the USA. And frankly I would like to see the USA be disbanded. ( I also resent the fact that the US supports your little phantom state with my tax dollars, shame shame!) I don't have a problem with a Zionist state. As I said many times, I just think it should be relocated to say Brooklyn, Beverly Hills, Miami Beach or the Moon.

Hey Letto,
Have you noticed that Nahida and presence_aka_namaste never answer the questions posed to them? I'm still waiting for a response to so-called "sources".

nahida, are you some kind of bot that only knows how to post pictures and lousy songs? Or are you actually a person?

If you are a person, can you please stop evading and finally reply my question of: Why do see suicide bombing against innocent civilians as a "legitimate right of resistance"

forextrader - "Zionist liberals are the worst of hypocrites. They call for progressivisim and civil rights but they feel that the only good Arab is a dead one."

I'm a liberal Zionist, and I never thought any of that sort. I have Arab co-workers, and once I even had a Palestinian boss, and you claim that I want to see them dead?
Any proof for that claim of yours? Or are these empty words just like the rest of your hate comments?

While on it - Can you please tell us which country you are from, and why that country have more right to exist than Israel?

nahida, You still avoid the issue of telling us why you see suicide bombing against innocent civilians as a "legitimate right of resistance"

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/21/9133/
nahida May 23rd, 2008 7:30 am

Oh spare me jewdini. I've heard it all before. And don't tell me that you and your Zionist ilk doesn't call for the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians. That's a bold face lie. The Zionist phantom state has no business existing on Palestinian land. End of story. What is it about the inhumanity towards innocent Palestinians that makes these Zionofascists foam the mouth? Zionist liberals are the worst of hypocrites. They call for progressivisim and civil rights but they feel that the only good Arab is a dead one. Damn phonies. God Bless Bishop Tutu, Hamas, Rachel Corrie and most of all Palestine.

Well of course, florex, like most arab supporters you call for the destruction of israel, that's no surprise.

What kills me is that you fail to see the irony in the statement "jewbacca and letto are blind to the plight of the palestinians". Forgive me, but I don't think that people that openly call for genocide, people like you, nahida, and many of the other "progressives" on here, have any right to talk about the plight of anyone. I certainly do not call for the indiscriminate murder of palestinians as nahida does for isarelis, so comparing us morally is absurd.

Thank you though, nahida, for again ptoving that all you do is scroll these discussions, I've never actually seen you take part or respond to what anyone critical of you has to say...

Nahida is a very decent human being and I thank her for sharing her plight about Palestinians. She says very beautiful things. It's too bad that Letto and Jewbacca are totally tone deaf to the plight of Palestininans. Karma will get you both and "Israel" for that. I say no "Israel", no problem.

Letto, nahida won't ever defend anything she says, she just tries to pretend to be some sort of warm-hearted poet whenever you challenge her. In case you are ever fooled, keep in mind she has without a doubt: (1) Said israel has no right to exist in any form, and (2) supported the murder of random israeli civilians.

Let's see some poetry about that, nahida, or at least some sign that you arn't a bot. I have the feeling the response will be more crappy poetry and scrolling of the discussion.

Arguing with Zionofascists is as useful as an electric banana peeler.

Regarding the one sided statistics that you've published:

1. Do they includes the 1.2 million Arab Israelis (Palestinians with full Israeli citizenship) who are living in cities and towns within Israel?
2. The casualties numbers: Do they differentiate between Palestinians who were killed by Israel and Palestinians who were killed by Palestinians?
Do they tell us how many of the Palestinians causalities were civilities and how many were militants who were carrying attackers against Israelis?

And the biggest misleading about the numbers - you forgot to tell the readers the intent of the attacks.

- The Palestinian terrorists try to target and kill as many civilians. And they do so while hiding among Palestinians civilians (Using them as human shields)
- The IDF is trying to kill only active members of terrorists organization while trying to minimize the civilians casualties.

The reduction in the number of Israeli terror victims didn't happen because the terrorist organization suddenly become Zionists or lost their motivation to randomly kill innocent Jews ("right of resistance"), but because they lost the ability. (The security barrier)

With regards to Settlements, the status of the west bank doesn't fall under the definition of the Geneva convention.

1. Jews have been living in the west bank for thousands of years, until they were ethnically cleansed in 1929 and 1948. (Hebron Massacre 1929, Kfat Etzion 1948 Massacare, The Jewish quarter in Jerusalem, Gush Etzion, Bet Harava etc.")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter

Are you saying that just because the West Bank was ethnically cleaned of Jews for 19 years (Between 1948 and 1967) than Jews have lost their right forever to live in the west bank?

2.Legal status according to Internationnal law.
The West Bank is currently considered under international law to be, de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council,[29] the United Nations General Assembly,[30] the International Court of Justice,[31] and the International Committee of the Red Cross[32] refer to it as occupied by Israel.

According to Alan Dowty, legally the status of the West Bank falls under the international law of belligerent occupation, as distinguished from nonbelligerent occupation that follows an armistice. This assumes the possibility of renewed fighting, and affords the occupier "broad leeway". The West Bank has a unique status in two respects; first, there is no precedent for a belligerent occupation lasting for more than a brief period, and second, that the West Bank was not part of a sovereign country before occupation — thus, in legal terms, there is no "reversioner" for the West Bank. This means that sovereignty of the West Bank is currently suspended, and, according to some[specify], Israel, as the only successor state to the Palestine Mandate, has a status that "goes beyond that of military occupier alone."[33]

The current status arises from the facts (see above reference) that Great Britain surrendered its mandate in 1948 and Jordan relinquished its claim in 1988. Since the area has never in modern times been an independent state, there is no "legitimate" claimant to the area other than the present occupier, which currently happens to be Israel.

nahida, You still avoid the issue of telling us why you see suicide bombing against innocent civilians as a "legitimate right of resistance"

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/21/9133/
nahida May 23rd, 2008 7:30 am

Thank you nahida, Although you continue to spread one sided hatred images (I didn't see you publish any of the thousands blood covered bodies of Jews which were killed by Palestinian terror), however, at least now we've established that Jews have some historical right over Israel.
It's a positive start.

About remorse. Unlike you who have remorse only to Palestinians victims, I feel remorse to all the innocent victims of the conflicts.(Palestinians and Jews alike)

There is another difference between us, I have a little more respect to the Palestinians than you. You regards the Palestinians as some kind of wimps with no control or responsibility what so ever over their own actions or their fate.

I on the other hand, see the Palestinian (and Jewish) suffering as a direct result of the choices that the Palestinian leadership made throughout the years.

For example.:
- The rejection of the Wietsman Fisal 1919 agreement.
- Massacres of 1929.
- The rejection of the Peel comity proposal of 1937.
- The Arab rebellion of 1936-9.
- Alliance with Nazi Germany during WWII
- The rejection of UN partition plan (UN resolution 181 in 1947)
- The decision to go to a war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine that same year (By the way - that was their biggest mistake)
- The terror campaign in the 1950's (Fedaiun)
- The PLO Terror campaign (That started in 1964 till 1993 against innocent Jews)
- The Black September in 1970 (This one was against Jordan)
- The first Intifada of 1987 (That one dropped the standard of living to be below Egypt, Jordan Syria and Lebanon)
- The suicide bombing campaign of the 1990s (This is when you lost your jobs, and freedom movement in Israel)
- The rejection of Camp David in 2000.
- Initiating the second intifada.
- Burning all the Israeli factories in Gaza that provided you jobs. (Which were rebuilt in Jordan and Egypt)
- The Hamas rocket campaign against Israeli civilient targets. (This one is really a stupid one)
to name a few.

Each of these choice which was made by the Palestinian leadership caused suffering and pain to Palestinian civilients. You nahida chose to be blind to these responsibilities and chose the career of a professional whiner, who only blame others for your own misfortune.

presence_aka_Namaste, do you know for a fact that God exists?

Suppose that he does, are you the only quolified person to know what he wants?

Here is an Assyrian document from the British Musium.

The cupture of the Jewish city of Lachish. 701 BC
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/s/panel,_palace_of_sennacherib-5....

Now who is the lier?

Do you deny the fact presence_aka_Namaste, that there was time when a Kinngdom of Judea and Israel existed?

When Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem, Bet-Lehem or Nasarath, the people he met were Jews or Palestinians?

You know what - forget the Bible and the Quran. There are Greek Roman Assyrian Egypsian Babylonians and Persian who wrote that once a Kingdom of Judea Existed and its people were Jews.

presence_aka_namaste: Actually, I have read MANY scholars who do believe quite strongly, that "… Jews have no historical right what so ever over Israel", as after the diaspora, each individual Jew left their rights behind (except for the few that stayed).

--And these scholars are...? Please name them so we may check your sources.

You spout a lot of rhetoric without sources to back them up. As far as I am concerned, this is your opinion, not fact.

Forextrader - Even if your racist wet dream comes true and the Jews of Israel will be totally ethnically cleansed - It will not bring peace to the Palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah-Hamas_conflict

presence_aka_Namaste, I'm relived to learn than you no longer intend to sent "State Security Forces" to punish me for bringing data that doesn't support your hate agenda.

Maybe there is hope for you after all.
Freedom of information and freesom of speech for all!!!

presence_aka_Namaste, thank you for bringing the quote where you legitimizing suicide bombing against civilities.

Here is what I have to say about Truth (And thanks for waiting)

There are many truth (Depends on your view point). Your truth is different than others. You don't need me to find out the truth. (And in fact, any information that I'll bring will be dismissed by you as lie regardless.)

If it is truth that you seek - you can start searching for information here www.google.com or Wikipedia.

Try to learn the history of the country (From Biblical times).

The picture that you paint, where all Zionists are Evil War Criminals, and all Palestinians are Saints, and that Jews have no historical right what so ever over Israel - May not be the only truth.

forextrader May 31st, 2008 1:11 pm
"Letto, why don't they move your Zionist Israel to Europe, Miami Beach, Beverly Hills, Skokie, Brooklyn, or Pluto and let the Palestinians live in Peace? Why should Palestinians pay for the holocaust against the Jews in WWII? Shouldn't Europe compensate for that? Palestinians owe you nothing."

forextrader - The Palestinian leadership were in fact partners with Nazi Germany.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

nahida, I fail to see what is wrong with saving the lived of millions of Jews by allowing them to flee from Nazi Germany to the land of Israel.
This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement

Jewish immigration to the land of Israel could have saved millions of lives, and could have brought economic prosperity to everyone in the land (Including the Arabs).

Today, the Arab Israelis have a higher standard of Living than all the sourounding countries (the Palestinian Athority, Lebanon, Egypt, Jorden and Syria).

I remind you nahida that no Palestinian was deiplaced before the Palestinians rejected UN partition plan and went to war (and lost)

presence_aka_Namaste, Peace could only be achive if the cult of hate change.

Peace could only come if it is a Win/Win solution, where all nations enjoy the froot of peace.

I tried to speak to nahida about a Win/Win conversation, she refuse even to speak about peace unless the Israelis turn the clock back in time to the exact time that suite her best (And I'm not sure if she ment the 19th century, or 800AD).

How can there be peace if there is no will by one side to talk and no will by one side to compromise?

The Holocaust

The Mufti was in Berlin during the war, but later denied knowing of the Holocaust. One of Adolf Eichmann's deputies, Dieter Wisliceny, stated after the war that he had actively encouraged the extermination of European Jews, and that he had had an elaborate meeting with Eichmann at his office, during which Eichmann gave him an intensive look at the current state of the "Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe" by the Third Reich. This testimony was denied by Eichmann at his 1961 trial in Jerusalem. Eichmann stated that he had only been introduced to the Mufti during an official reception, along with all other department heads. In the final judgement, the Jerusalem court stated: "In the light of this partial admission by the Accused, we accept as correct Wisliceny's statement about this conversation between the Mufti and the Accused. In our view it is not important whether this conversation took place in the Accused's office or elsewhere. On the other hand, we cannot determine decisive findings with regard to the Accused on the basis of the notes appearing in the Mufti's diary which were submitted to us."

Jewish political theorist Hannah Arendt, who attended the complete Eichmann trial, concluded in her book Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil: "The trial revealed only that all rumours about Eichmann's connection with Haj Amin el Husseini, the former Mufti of Jerusalem, were unfounded." Rafael Medoff concludes that "actually there is no evidence that the Mufti's presence was a factor at all; the Wisliceny hearsay is not merely uncorroborated, but conflicts with everything else that is known about the origins of the Final Solution." Bernard Lewis also called Wisliceny's testimony into doubt: "There is no independent documentary confirmation of Wisliceny's statements, and it seems unlikely that the Nazis needed any such additional encouragement from the outside."

Some recent research, however, apparently argues that al-Husayni did work with Eichmann for the dispatch of a special corps of Einsatz commandos to exterminate the Jews in Palestine, if Rommel managed to break through the British lines in Egypt. Husayni did intervene on May 13, 1943, with the German Foreign Office to block possible transfers of Jews from Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania, after reports reached him that 4000 Jewish children accompanied by 500 adults had managed to reach Palestine. He asked that the Foreign Minister 'to do his utmost' to block all such proposals and this request was complied with.. A year later, on the 25th July, 1944, he wrote to the Hungarian foreign minister to register his objection to the release of certificates for 900 Jewish children and 100 adults for transfer from Hungary, fearing they might end up in Palestine. He suggested that if such transfers of population were deemed necessary, then:-

'it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, as for example Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage.'

Among the acts of sabotage al-Husayni attempted to implement, Michael Bar Zohar reports a chemical warfare assault on the second largest and predominantly Jewish city in Palestine, Tel Aviv. According to him, five parachutists were sent with a toxin to dump into the water system. The police caught the infiltrators in a cave near Jericho, and according to Jericho district police commander Fayiz Bey Idrissi, 'The laboratory report stated that each container held enough poison to kill 25,000 people, and there were at least ten containers.'

He is also said to have requested that Jerusalem be bombed by the German air force, a request that puts doubts on his religiosity, since, in Walter Laqueur's words,'It is unlikely that a truly pious Muslim would have acted this way.'

In his memoirs after the war, Husayni noted that "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours'.'

In a book of Husayni's memoirs edited by Abd al-Karim al-Umar and published in Damascus in 1999, Husayni openly discusses his close relationship to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. According to Husayni's account, he often met Himmler for tea and during these meetings the Nazi leader confided some of the secrets of the German Reich to him. In the memoirs, as the Middle East historian Wolfgang G. Schwanitz of New Jersey discovered, Husayni describes what Himmler said to him in the summer of 1943 about the persecution of the Jews. Following some tirades on "Jewish war guilt," Himmler told him that "up to now we have exterminated [in Arabic, abadna] around three million of them."

In September 1943, intense negotiations to rescue 500 Jewish children from the town of Arbe in Croatia collapsed due to the objection of the Mufti who blocked the children's departure to Turkey because they would end up in Palestine.

Recent Nazi documents uncovered in the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg by two researchers, Klaus Michael Mallmann from Stuttgart University and Martin Cüppers from the University of Ludwigsburg, indicated that in the event of the British being defeated in Egypt by Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps the Nazis had planned to deploy a special unit called Einsatzkommando Ägypten to exterminate Palestinian Jews and that they wanted Arab support to prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. In their book the researchers concluded that, "the most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem

Since the Israeli Occupation, Baby Morthality rate in Gaza dropped from 30% to 2%. the irony is that a third of the Palestinians in Gaza own their lived to the Israeli health care.

As for the Holocaust, the Palestinian leadership were partners of Hitler.

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Amin%20al-Husayni&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

in February 1941, al-Hussayni submitted to the German government a draft declaration of German-Arab cooperation, containing a clause:

Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy.

Palestinian children taught to aspire to martyrdom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFnbNy6MMDA

Palestinian TV: Inciting Children To "Commit a Massacre"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEcaI7zQG3E

Pure Jew Hate On "Palestinian" AUTHORITY TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66maIBToYv4

This is why there is so much anger.

As for the anger nahida,- You are angry as result of the brain wash for hatred that you see on Pal TV, in the .

I lost 80% of my family in the holocaust.
The same holocaust that you nahida dispute even existed.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/28/9249/
nahida May 30th, 2008 4:57 am

Yet I don't hate Germans. And you know why? Because I wasn't brainwashed to hate them, as you were brainwashed to hate Jews.

Micky Mouse Teaches Kids To Commit Terrorism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzlFPm7bymY

nahida, You support suicide bombing againt innocent woman and children as a "legitimate right of resistance"

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/21/9133/
nahida May 23rd, 2008 7:30 am

And you wonder why there is no peace?

mikepeters, From your lack of reply, I presume you've decided to crawl back under the stone which you originally came from.

I knew that KKK shit like you is only "brave" with a beer in his hand, and from a safe distance from his expletive victim.

mikepeters "pack of murdering, child-torturing NAZI-JEWS." ... "These filthy scum call"... "Okay bitches; That makes YOU JEWISH COCKSUCKERS just that: JEWISH filth."...""

mikepeters: "I'm getting there you babykillers. YOU COWARDS."

mikepeters, I'm COCKSUCKERS JEWISH filth and I'm sure as hell wants to meet you face to face, just to see how "brave" a Nazi craze prick like you is in real life.

WHEW! I AM EXHAUSTED. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR A DEBATE BETWEEN NAHIDA AND ALAN DERSHOWITZ. I'D STAY UP LATE FOR THAT EVENT.

First of all - Mr. Tutu had crossed the border from Egypt. So how can he claim that Gaza is under an Israeli siege? (And that doesn't include, food medicine, diesel and electricity that is provided from Israel, which makes his claim even more ridiculously)

Ant another question to the honorable tutu. Since when a partial siege during a time of war is a war crime?
According to that same logic - the siege of Nazi Germany by the allies should also be conceded a war crime. Have I missed something with your logic Mr. Tutu?

UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, since it's creation in 2006 has passed 20 resolutions. 19 against Israel, and 1 against Myanmar.
All other 190 UN members, who massacred millions and committed numerous human right violation, some with a casualties factor of 1000 times higher than the Israel-Palestinian conflict casualties (such as Sudan), were virtually ignored.

This one-sided UN inquiry against Israel, headed by Tutu, is no different and is typical for that Council.
http://blog.unwatch.org/?p=166
Tutu Undertakes One-Sided Mission to Gaza; UN Mum on Egyptian Occupier

See which testimony is the only testimony that wasn't accepted by that so called "UN human right Council"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEw0lZ3k_Y&mode=related&search=

By their action, this one sided Council, decided that the life of 250,000 black Sudanese, and millions of other victims, who were murdered and raped on mega scale, is worth less than the life of 19 Palestinians who were killed by an error of a guidance system of an Israeli artillery battery, and on which Israel had already issued an apology.

This infamous UN Human Rights Council (Which in the eyes of many should be called the Anti-Israel Council) should immediately be dismantle, and replaced by a body who believe all humans on this planet deserve equal protection.

http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1344113/k.6B01/Commission_on_Human_Rights.htm

Nahida,

You claim absolute rights for your people, yet you would deny the same rights to the Jews. You are a hypocrite. You forever refuse to acknowledge which borders you would accept for a Jewish state so the obvious conclusion is none.

You want the abolition of the Israeli State, the return of your people with no reciprocal rights for the Jews to their properties in the Arab States from which they were expelled in 1948. No state except one dominated by a people that hates them (all your pretty words aside). Genocide for the Jews is your only solution but you know that wouldn't be acceptable to most in this forum, so you cover it up with poetry.

Your name-calling (hasbara mouthpiece, whatever the hell that means) shows your true face. First you would demean and make less than human someone you would destroy. You betray you rationality and humanity with your own words.

Is it just my machine or has the text on this page changed since: presence_aka_Namaste May 29th, 2008 2:48 pm ?

suhail_shafi,

And what else does he say? Conveniently forgetting something are we? Same paragraph - Let me give you a hint, it has to do with rockets.....

This is what I mean when I say there is no balance here.

The Palestinian launching of rockets is like a man striking out blindly in a rage. He hurts others and himself. No matter - It is the rage that is important.

I say the rage is impotent. All it does is give the Israelis an excuse, however thin, to continue their bad deeds, their abomination.

Mikep,

Tutu is correct.
The Palestinians now have no problem with recognizing Israel and living in peace. That is hard to do when Israel lead by Bush will not even negotiate a cease fire with Hamas, when Hamas as relayed by Jimmy Carter is ready to abide by any negotiated peace by Fatah and ratified by a Palestinian vote.

In the Bible, Abraham came from the land which is now Iraq. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

it is amazing when you google "Real Semitic Jews" and combine that with the confusion of the history of the Jews when there are many interpretations of the Bible.

Bible history of Gaza http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06399c.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06399c.htm

Peace is a piece of cake if you are ready for it.
Shalom

The whole equivalency argument for message board attention is fallacious. The western press focuses on Israeli suffering far more than it does on Palestinian suffering. Progressive boards are there to balance this bias, to support the oppressed and dispossessed whoever they are as part of our shared humanity. The same was true in WWII when it was the Left that fought their archenemies the Nazis the hardest, and it is the same today when principled progressives (there are many who are not) defend Palestinians who are not only dispossessed, but effectively silenced by the news media.

People should also note how Zionism as an exclusivist nationalist ideology has long made alliances with right-wing (and yes, anti-semitic) nationalist regimes in Europe in the early 20th century and Apartheid South Africa and the military juntas of Central and South America in the latter half. It's a sordid story. Even Israeli arms were used by the Guatemalan military to commit genocide against the Maya.

Desmond Tutu is absolutely right on - the Gaza blockade is a total abomination - shame on the US government, the Israeli government, and the army of occupation that makes all this possible.

People who feel they have no hope for a future feel they have no reason to care about any consequences of any action they take - especially those taken in revenge.

iammyself May 30th, 2008 11:31 am -- 'So, you believe that because one of my parents was Jewish, that I and "my people" are attacking you?'

Obviously I can't speak for nahida, nor for other who share her situation. But, having read her postings elsewhere over a considerable period of time, I think I can understand a certain increase in the level of frustration and consequent undertones that sometimes approach vindictiveness under current conditions. Perhaps you can too. I wouldn't think it's really aimed at you personally. Nevertheless, it's clearly unwise to alienate those, like yourself, who would like to find some reasonable and mutually agreeable answer to the ongoing catastrophe.

You might find today's Counterpunch article on the subject to be of interest in the context of your earlier questions. It is written by a Palestinian who declares himself "committed to nonviolent resistance to the occupation".

Hi Namaste,

I believe the Israelis need to remove all of their settlements from the West Bank. Pull down all of the wall that is not on their territory (1967 boundaries) and turn over half of Jerusalem. I think the Palestinians should quit shooting themselves in the foot by rocketing Israel because it just gives them an excuse. I think they should accept that Israel is never going to commit national-suicide by recognizing the "Right of Return" and that the Arab countries that expulsed all their Jewish population and seized their properties (3 times the size of the lands seized from the Palestinians) after 1948 can use that wealth to recompense the Palestinians.

There is a reason I think this board is heavily prejudiced towards the Palestinians and I quote your own words. "Of course war crimes are occurring on both sides, civil populations should be sacrosanct,....". I couldn't agree more. But instead of calling Nahida on the carpet when he states that the killing of Israeli civilians is just fine with him, you praise his poetry. I won't let that pass. I will never accept that the killing of innocents, by anyone, is okay.

Nahida,

How much of the land is stolen? Outside the 1967 boundaries? Outside the 1948 boundaries? All?

You say stop the apartheid - fine, I am all for that. But then you say the knuckleheads launching rockets at civilians are A-okay and then I realize that killing inoccents is fine with you. As long as they are Jewish innocents. This is where you are flat wrong. The killing of innocents is never right, in any holy book.

Is that why you don't specify which land is stolen? You want it all and you want the current occupiers to just go off and die someplace.

I am open to being told where my logic/my thinking is wrong. Though you will never convince me that anyone, Israeli, Palestinian, or Martian is ever, ever, justified in the killing of innocents. And don't tell me there are no innocents. That is just a cheap cop-out used by the morally bankrupt.

"YOU and YOUR PEOPLE have NO right to ATTACK us and CLAIM our HOMELAND just because you are Jewish and that God gave you our land!"

So, you believe that because one of my parents was Jewish, that I and "my people" are attacking you?

I have come out against apartheid in the occupied lands and have come out against Zionist infiltrators in the US and elsewhere, and yet all you see is that I am the problem.

I agree with your list of things to be stopped, nahida, yet all you seem to want is that I conform to your preconcieved and absolutist ideas of what I should do. Peaceful change doesn't happen that way. But then, you never agreed that what you want is peace. You want "justice." How many more will have to die in the name of justice?

Folks, fan the flames of violence and retribution all you want, but count me out. None of our religious or moral icons would have called for it.

"We have to stop preaching Hate in Gods name. we have Vary serious problems facing the world, that will require all of Humanity to work together to Find a solution. if we want peace, we can Make it happen but sacrifice, can bring peace."

Agreed, peacekeepertwo.

Maybe we should replace Isreal with a secular Democracy, why anyone would want to fight to live in country, that is in a constint State of war,since it became a State I will Never Understand. We have to stop preaching Hate in Gods name. we have Vary serious problems facing the world, that will require all of Humanity to work together to Find a solution. if we want peace, we can Make it happen but sacrifice, can bring peace.

First of all (in response to the very first comment), many of the Palestinians are semites as well. So to claim that contesting the actions of the Israelis is antisemitic is, for lack of a better word, stupid.
Secondly, I doubt that when god or whoever promised the jews that land he would've condoned the violence and abuse that Israel commits against the most poverty stricken people in the areas. They're already starved for supplies, food, jobs, etc. Its utterly ridiculous to suggest that the Israeli blockade, lawful or not, is excusable, and its ridiculous that no governments acknowledge their abuse towards that Palestenian people. What Israel is is a theocracy making war on those around them who do not comply with their beliefs.
Of course Hamas' rockets are wrong, but its also wrong that Hamas was the democratically elected leader of Gaza and all major countries absolutely refuse to meet with them, referring to them as terrorists.
Its ridiculous and childish to assume that if you don't talk with your enemies and work out differences they'll just dissappear. The more Israel and other countries involved refuse to participate in fair diplomacy, the worse the conflict will become and the more inflammation it will cause.

nahida May 30th, 2008 8:45 am -- 'Have you heard of "Terror Scarf" yet?'

I have now. I'll start wearing one just as soon as I can get to my local haberdasher. Perhaps we all should. It makes a great "fashion statement" in opposition to fascist neocons everywhere.

Today's Guardian (UK) articles headed A Week in Gaza are well worth reading.

A big part of the Western world turns a blink eye as far as Israel is concerned. Many politicians in Holland, where I live, support Israel unconditionally, ignoring all kinds of international treaties and UN-resolutions. Why they do this, I don't know: some of them may be wacky Christians, just like they abundan in the US, or they feel they can't let Israel, inhabited by many Jews, down after the Holocaust. Whatever their motives, they are not helping anybody in the Middle East.

nahida,

I once again ask you: What do you want the Israelis to do? What would it take for the Israeli government to make restitution to the Palestinian people?

I ask because I do not know. I do not support the apartheid situation in Gaza or the West Bank. I do not support the wanton killing that is occurring at the hands of the Zionist Israelis (knowing that not all Israelis support the oppression). However, neither do I support the bombing of civilians in Israel.

Is there a way to peacefully bring the justice you and I desire? If the only way that you suggest is for the Israelis to leave Israel, I don't see how that will happen, the same as the non-indigenous peoples of the Americas will not leave the lands that they now call home.

Gandhi once said, "Be the change you want to see in the world." Is there a way we can all do this? What do we want to see? I know that the Zionist boot is on the throat of the Palestinians, but has all the fighting brought peace to either side? The Israeli government is now ruled by the same fascist neocons as is the U.S. government. I want to see both gone - but I want to replace them with peaceful governments that embody justice and respect and want to see the same of all Arab governments.

How do we get there?

Salaam.

Nahida, I love your brain, your thoughts and more your INTELECT!! IT'S INDIVIDUALS LIKE you that keep me in a possitive mode that HUMANITY - - - - JUST MIGHT MAKE IT IN THE FUTURE eg PEOPLE CARE! Keep writing please. Love reading you!

Yes, especially the Europeans have been supine, as Carter has pointed out recently.

Shame on US and EU for being bought by Israel.

.
Bishop Tutu has seen Apartheid. He has endured living in the South African Police State. He has witnessed murder and torture in his homeland.

His U.N. Fact Finding Mission has seen first-hand the heinous prison camp conditions that the Palestinian people are living under, and dying in.

As a man of God, he calls out to the consciences of the world to condemn the actions of the State of Israel.

Before peace can be negociated, the Gaza Blockade must be ended.....

Massacres and Refugee camps must be ended. The State of Palestine must be proclaimed and recognized.

The United States must stop underwriting Israel. Spend that 65, Billion U.S. Dollars right here in the U.S.A.

.

Nahida,
thank you for sharing your obvious pain and suffering caused by these injustices.

Amin

Namaste - Your kind words are much appreciated. And I understand the fury quite well. Lived with it for decades. Still do.

Again, the likes of goose2 step(whatever) and Mikep have played swiftboaters to distract us from a reported 'war crime' by a revered cleric who suffered similar abuse at the hands of the Afrikaaner government.

The horrific, crime against humanity tactics of the misnamed IDF are the subject.

Look at all the time wasted in anal intercouse with these two and others like them.

The 'international community'..it sounds impressive, until you take a closer look, and realise this consists of right wing governments, who behave as if they were dictators, ignoring their own publics views

Mikep is only kidding. No one could possibly as stupid as he pretends to be. He's most likely a Mossad agent in drag.

'Residents in the Beit Hanoun area were summoned to a local square by Israeli troops with loudhailers, before dozens were taken away'.

How can any intelligent person miss the similarities to the nazi round-up of Jews in ww11?

And just how is the Gaza blockade different from the Warsaw ghetto?

The term anti-Semitic has indeed been co-opted by American Jews, few of which are actually Semitic in origin.

There is a reason for this, and my guess is that it lends legitimacy to the concept of "Right of Return," for one can certainly not "return" to a place one has never been and has no historical ties to. So constantly claiming that all Jews are Semites reinforces this myth.

I also believe that most of the vitriolic "anti-Jew" comments here are in large part attributable to the infuriating propaganda and moral depravity of the Zionists who show up to rebut any and all articles which criticize the criminal state of Israel. The posters are reacting to them, not Jews in general, as is evidenced when pro-peace and justice Jews show up to offer their opinions and are treated civily and with appreciation. And all of us are aware of valiant efforts made by both Israeli and American Jews on behalf of the Palestinian people and in an effort to secure peace.

Of course the Zionists desire to conflate any and all criticism of Israel (even by Jews themselves) as anti-Jewish hatespeech. Intelligent people realize this is bullshit.

This is proven on the hour here, by the hundreds of posters that rail against our own government, as well as the stupidity and even amorality of many of our own citizens, while affirming their desperate hope that a country they love can be changed for the better. Only on right-wing blogs would they be called anti-American.

It is criminal that on any blog, right or left, one can be tarred as a "Jew-hater," a Nazi or an anti-Semite for believing that Israel, a country that violates every known law and convention defining legal behavior for a state, is in the wrong and that the Palestinians deserve justice and human rights.

Hopefully, a time is soon coming when supporting the thugs in Israel will be not just an embarrassment (like watching and believing Fox News), but a crime.

It is really interesting how "liberal", which to my mind means open-minded, creative, able to process/comprehend new ideas, etc. some of the people on this board are. You say one thing that goes against the herd and the bleating becomes defeaning.

Tutu, is right, the blockade of Palestine is an "abomination". He is also right in that shooting rockets at civilians is an atrocity.

The thing is most of the people here are willing to forget that second part and just repeat the same old refrain, "Israel, bad! Palestinians, good!" It really gets amusing some times, how far people are willing to bend over backwards to ignore the stupidity, the mendacity, the utter corruption of the Palestinian governments and their self-destructive actions.

How is it that Zionist creatures like Goose and Mikep worm their way into a progressive site like Common Dreams? Frankly, the world would be a better place without that Zionist Phantom State aka "Israel".

open-minded,, how is anti-zionist become anti-jew? Two different animals....

Namaste-

Obviously yoga doesn't work for you. I only use the words "Namaste" at the end of my yoga class when I am completely accepting of everything around me and I am at peace. Your level of anger against people posting differently from you is way over the top and a very harsh reaction. It doesn't fit with the name, "Namaste".

To the others regarding the term anti-semitic, it does indeed include all semitic people, but in this country, the term has come to represent anti-Jewish sentiment. Many of these postings which are Anti-zionist are Anti-Jew, I feel. It's coming across loud and clear and makes me feel very uncomfortable to be part of this community.

DESMOND TUTU NEXT POPE!!! (well, dreams are free...aren't they!?)

Not to the same scale in Canada, but still similar to Palestine is the situation for many Canadian First Nations, aboriginal Peoples; and not the same because the tribes are not all in one location, but in many across Canada.

Apartheid there and here, both. Like Israel is extremely criminal, so is the Canadian govt; just that we will seldom hear or read anything about this, unless we know of good resources and use them. Two of them are the following.

www.MohawkNationNews.com
www.hiddenFromHistory.org

And that hidden history (both websites, actually speaking of hidden and critical information) is recent, while also continuing.

mikep - how can Palestinians be anti-semitic? Is it only Jews that are Semites?

The morally barren philosophy of Zionism becomes clearer with each post of its supremacist supporters.

Please keep it up. You are your own worst enemies.

>>(1.) . Grandiosely asserts (i.e. t☹tal ☁ lie ☠) being part of A progressive majority that gets shouted down…" - when at very best zionistas are like 0.25% of all Americans ( one of eight jews )<>(2.) . Throws the stale/rancid Israeli "negotiation platform" "don't support peace unless it is on their terms", back upon those supporting the hundreds of denied Palestinian peace proposals. Are your eyes Brown ?<>(3.) . Asserts that I'm only "really left wing Republicans", as IF even if so, that changes the inhumanity at stake here.<>(4.) . He must be referring to himself with comment "unthinking dogmatic shills", as the evidence above clearly does show <>(5.) . Again he must be referring to himself with comment "unthinking do would rather see a Mideast awash in blood and fire rather than sit down to make a real lasting peace.", as the evidence of Zionistas own "transfer" clearly does show that they want them all dead and gone however the means<<

I have read here often how it would be nice for Israel to be invaded, wiped from the map, removed, undone, overthrown and so on. I even think I remember you saying some of these things. SOmething about wanting a war that would end Israel. I think you know that that would mean nuclear war and an end to all the Arab capitals and cities and the creation of a hole in the center of Mecca. That would not do ANYONE a favor.

Try to look at your postings and see if you think they come from a thinker or a 12 year old that just learned how to change their font in MySpace.

I think the general tone of these posts perfectly reflects the manner in which we solve our problems on this planet in 2008. We posture, we insult, we attack,we wallow in our ignorant arrogance. It's pathetic and offensive to read entries such as those above.
Mr Tutu is speaking truth--the blockade is an abomination. Some Palestinians are warmongers, the majority of the victims are not.
All people of Arabic descent are Semites, so the term "anti-Semitic" can be equally used for those who favor attacking the Palestinians just as much as those who favor attacking the Israeli.
Justice demands that the situation be reviewed. many, many Israeli citizens are as shocked and horrified as is Mr Tutu. And yes, we are complicit.

>>This is so not congruent with reality, and humanity - as your calling Archbishop Demond Tutu a racist is way over the to<<

I didn't. You confuse me with another poster. I have had the pleasure of meeting the Archbishop during Apartheid in Johannesburg at a church in Soweto in 1983. I have no problem with him holding an opinion on the situation. He is far from a racist.

>>Well GOOSE-2-STEP — did your boss come by and force you soften your INITIAL answer about creaming more Rachels ?<<

No. My initial response was no, I have not crushed any more Rachaels, there don't appear to be any more there. I elaborated on it because I think it really is the point. There aren't people from all over the world doing things for the Palestinians, there are people all over the world doing business with Israel.

I am self employed as a artist in the SF Bay Area. Thanks though for the thoguht.

BTW, your animated gifs make your postings look like they belong on MySpace rather than here. Maybe just state what you have to say clearly and simply. Might get more information across...

The Israeli Zionist movement, by insisting on keeping possession of Palestine and expanding Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian lands is destroying the Jewish state it was its dream to create by its own actions of the continual brutal genocidal persecution of the Palestinian people.

mikep,

you're a racist, not a progressive. international law governs relations between two, sovereign states. unless, there is some groundbreaking story that i haven't heard, there is no palestinian state in existence. therefore, there is NO justification in international law to blockade a territory that is under your own sovereign auspices. invoking international law to support this, would be similar to invoking international law to support a US blockade of a Native American reservation.

Secondly, the Palestinian Authority has already recognized Israel in the Oslo Accords, through the Letters of Mutual Recognition. So, according to your logic, the Palestinians have recognized Israel and, therefore, want peace. So, according to your logic (i.e. non-recognition), the non-recognition of a Palestinian State by Israel means that they are not interested in peace, right?

So, what excuses will you try to use to justify a racist, apartheid genocide of the Palestinian people? Why don't you just tell the truth? That you wish for the elimination of the Palestinians from "their own land". This is not "progressive", it is barbaric.

AIPAC has metastized.

Re Archbishop Tutu:

Why would anyone pay attention to this Arab-loving and obviously anti-semitic raver?

>>Run over any more Rachels recently ?<<

Nope. There don't seem to be any over there any more. That's my point. Where are you? What have you done for your cause? She was willing to die for it. What about you? I am on the other side and I support Israel with my money. I stand up for Israel here and for the progressive majority that wants peace before all things. A progressive majority that gets shouted down by those here that don't support peace unless it is on their terms; those of you that are really only left wing Republicans - unthinking dogmatic shills that would rather see a Mideast awash in blood and fire rather than sit down to make a real lasting peace.

open-minded, I managed to identify one of the pictures that was published by nahida.

It is from the 2006 Gaza beach blast that killed the entire family of seven-year-old Huda Ghaliya.

There is a dispute about the cause for the explosion.
Some say it was an Israeli artillery shell that missed its kassam rocket launcher target by 250 yards.
Others say it was a Hamas planted land mind that killed the family.

Regardless of the causes, the wounded were treated in Israel.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Gaza_Beach_Libel.asp

So NancyH if the world knows so well that Israel is wrong, why do all these progressive wonderful countries trade with them? If Israel is so wrong and if everyone else is so right, why is there not a boycott?

Trading partners with Israel:
US 12.4%,
Belgium 8.2%,
Germany 6.7%,
Switzerland 5.9%,
UK 5.1%,
China 5.1%

Note that adds only to 43.4% of total trade, that means that there are a LOAD of countries that deal with Israel and account for 60% of their foreign trade. That is a heck of a lot of countries that are actively NOT boycotting Israel. In the real world, it doesn't matter what anyone says, the only thihg that matters is that people deal with Israel every day and regardless of whether or not they hold their noses, they deal and that means money and that in turn means power. Israel has it, Palestine doesn't and unless that changes, then there will be no chages.