This is the worst thing I've ever seen posted on commondreams. Do you scum actually support illegal immigration??????

You have to be kidding me, illegal immigration is one of the best tools of the elite to destroy us, and you idiots SUPPORT it???

DEPORT ALL ILLEGALS! Those of you who have started to wake up on this issue have my respect. Other leftyscum probably love to call you racist. Don't pay any attention, this is not about race this is about borders, sovereignty, and culture.

Some of the language in this thread is a little troubling; extremely naivest and borderline racist.

Historically, issues like this have been used as wedge issues (ie: Divide and Conquer) to direct allegiance to buercrats in Washington rather than people that leads lives much like everyone else(ie: have families and work 9-5+). Think "Southern Strategy"

Furthermore, blaming the most vulnerable people in society will end up hurting everyone in the end. For instance, when Regan assaulted the social safety net by blaming "young bucks buying T-bone steaks with food stamps" or Clinton ended Welfare as we know it; how productive was that? At the same time CEO were making 400+ times what workers were making, corporate welfare skyrocketed and US imperialism on a rampage. Where should the blame gone?

Anyway, (back to the subject) no human being is illegal; they're undocumented workers trying to survive just like everyone else. They take the most degrading and most dehumanizing jobs that no one else will; barely treading water in a world that believes people should have borders, but corporations should not.

I've also heard little discussion of the economic situation in Latin American countries in this thread. There needs to be a discussion about the disastrous economic affects on neoliberal policies such as NAFTA on South America. The US and other global capitalist powers made their neoliberal rampage through South America, and gave little choice for a country not to let their corporations and economic interests have free reign. Which had a tremendous affect on the economic conditions of a great deal of South America; especially Mexico.

So there are no "illegal aliens" that are inhuman bloodsuckers ploting to take people's jobs. There are economic refugees that want the leave the poverty of their country for a better life.

What kind of society do we live in where people who go to work everyday in the most disgusting jobs imaginable have to "pay the price?"

Bush and Co murder 1 million people in the middle east, destroy and occupy two countries; but 300+ plus meatplant workers in rural Iowa (!) have to "pay the price!"

A better question to ask would be: does US imperialism have its papers?

luckylefty May 30th, 2008 12:42 pm

You missed the target, Sarge. This is not a racial issue but an economic issue. The middle class workers took care of this Nation for years through pay roll deductions for Medicare, Social Security and Income taxes. No one in that group had an opportunity to hedge on the payments because they never had the money in their hand. Do you suppose that those who are paid cash at the end of each day go in search of a Governmental Agency and attempt to pay their fair share? Do they have to pay for their food or medical expenses? No, Social Services provides food stamps, living facilities and medical care. NO expenses allows them, in my area, to drive low-rider cars with fancy wheels that cost up to $2,500.00 a set. If you can clear $400.00 a week and your expenses are all taken care of, that's not bad for menial labor.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion although yours became a rant. You have yours and I have mine. So be it.

"Regardless of the moral issue of arresting these people, they have broken the law and should be treated as any other under the same circumstances." arcing28 May 29th, 2008 9:47 pm

How American can you get. Drive the Mexican farmers off the land by giving subsidies to Corp Agri-Biz so they can "dump" product in Mexico. Then you spit on brown skinned men and women for doing anything they can to live, while RICHFILTH ANIMALS - your white Masters - make billions in Profit$, break every Law on the books, and run dirty salmonella riddled plants because they're more profitable and because they OWN your politicians and the regulatory agencies.

BUT "those illegals" BROKE THE SACRED LAWS OF AMERICA. LYNCH THEM BURN THEM MAKE THEM SCREAM.

You're no different that those "other" white Americans who took their children to see black men and women lynched.

They Broke The LAW they must DIE!!!

Your turn's next. In case you ain't noticed, your insulated white privilege is smoldering and should light up real pretty real soon. But you be sure and worship your white MAsters.

I'll bet you were brought up with a "proper respect for Authority." You know your place. That's why you and so many Americans need a constant diet of misery and suffering so that you can know "you're still better than them."

For a little while. In case you ain't noticed, you're all "niggers in America Now."

Show me someone who is making half a million or more a year in wages and I'll show you someone who isn't earning his money. I know people who make that kind of money and their not doing anything special to earn it. They don't work any harder, they don't work any smarter and they very rarely come up with any real ideas on their own. Do you really think they deserve being paid that much.

It's time for a living wage in this country and the corporations can afford to pay it. They may have to lower their profit margins by paying the corporate leaders less money and lowering their stock dividend payouts but they can afford to do it.

It is a lie to say:
"its a job no one else wants"....thats not what the employers say! They say 'if you don't like it, we got 20 or 100 others waiting for your job".

"its a job no one else wants"....then what did the employers have for a workforce for say the last 10 or 20 or 50 years they have been around? could it be the local people that they have neverendingly screwed over?

I would be curious to know just what were they paying these expelled employees. And this excuse that 'we didn't know they were illegal' is rediculous. They just wanted something for nothing. This behavior was, before enactment of NAFTA referred to as criminal theft. How come we don't have the CEO, the board of directors, & others within this type of outfit in detention camps, they are the ones doing the fraud, and the only ones responsible. And yet have we ever heard of the Swift plant executive staff arrested, or even fined?

I'm not against corporate industry doing their best to compete on the 'NAFTA systemic' world market. I am against the liers, theives, cheating, lowlifes that went to university to learn this kind of management. thankyou for nothing WTO, GwB, slick, and agriprocessors.

wild

A quote from the article:
and the 306 workers charged with possession of a counterfeit identification document, aggravated identity theft and misuse of a Social Security number.

It would be interesting to learn whether or not the workers were paying into with-holding taxes, Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment. The quote above tells us that the workers were illegal, undocumented, using stolen ID and creating or having created invalid Social Security numbers.
Regardless of the moral issue of arresting these people, they have broken the law and should be treated as any other under the same circumstances. Their moral issue is that, if the above is true, they are not contributing to the Economic stability of this Country through payroll deductions. Yes, the owners ot this business are as guilty as the workers for allowing illegals into their slaughterhouses and should be investigated by the IRS and the DOL on the matters of forwarding the payroll deductions to the proper government agencys. It is said that the American worker will not work on the "Lower end" jobs. Do the math....the difference is in the deductions. I, personally, have seen illegal construction workers paid, in cash, on the tailgate of a company pick up truck at the end of each day. The majority of that money is going back to "the old country" via US mail each week. It is a fact that the greater part of the deposits in Mexican Banks come from the United States. Get Legal. Get a legal Job. And I will welcome you. 75 years old Veteran and an Union Advocate.

daniel david - i think your idea is brilliant.

---------------

kernel--

you raise a good point. meat processing plant workers have a proud tradition, and although i would never eat their products - i do admire the workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormel

1985 strike

{In August 1985, Hormel workers went on strike at the Hormel headquarters in Austin, Minnesota. Frustrated by low wages and dangerous working conditions, they started one of the longest strikes of the 1980s. The strike began with the sanction of the International level of the union, P-9. The local chapter of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union P-9 led the strike, but was not supported by their parent union. The strike gained national attention, and led to a widely publicized boycott of Hormel products.

After six months, a significant number of scabs crossed the picket line, provoking riots in Austin. Wayne P. Goodnature was Sheriff at the time. On January 21, 1986, the Governor of Minnesota, Rudy Perpich, called in the National Guard to protect the scabs. This unpopular move brought protests against the governor, and Perpich soon withdrew the National Guard from Austin. The action had a greater effect on the national union, which ousted the local P-9.

The strike was ended in June 1986, after lasting 10 months. Over 700 of the workers did not return to their jobs, refusing to cross the picket line, as some had chosen to do. In solidarity with those workers, the boycott of Hormel products continued for some time. Ultimately, however, the company did succeed in hiring new workers at lower wages. It is still disputed as to who actually made the original National Guard request.

The strike was chronicled in the film "American Dream", which won the Academy Award for best documentary in 1990. A song about the strike, entitled P-9 (link to music video of song), was written by Dave Pirner of the Minneapolis band, Soul Asylum. The song can be found on their 1989 album, Clam Dip & Other Delights}

...peace....

as a vegetarian transplant living in iowa, i was taken back by a few comments i heard in my community about the kosher meat packing plant in pottsville. most iowans i talked to were upset b/c small businesses would lose money, landlords lost tenants and by golly the town's become a ghost town.

i've paused before saying, excuse me dear friend but don't ya have any feelings for all those folks from guatemala and mexico who are being detained like animals? usually they shrug - (they appreciated the money from the immigrants spent in their community, but they could care less who 'those' people are - i am curious about how jews who are kosher feel about this?).

there was a story on iowa public radio recently about african american workers from chicago being used to replace the illegals in marshalltown (swift). public radios take was to make it a win/win scenario (yeah, the ghtetto sucks - i miss friends, it's wierd being black in a small white midwestern town, yeah we all live near each other - since we arrived at our jobs by greyhound bus, it's not like we can drive back to the city and see our families).

the poor blacks get money (min wage) and the factory gets legit workers. what a deal... only in america brought to you by archer daniel midlands.....

i always thought it was odd that free market capitalist are completely happy w/ the liquidity of capital across international borders, yet they cringe when labor asks for the same right (solution move the factory). why do workers get the short end of the stick?

it isn't just a critique of USA but of most 'developed' nations (including canada). keep the rif-raf at bay, unless it's absolutely necessary (wink-wink, nod-nod). workers should be able to migrate and assimilate anywhere in the world, regardless of their economic status (big pile of money and you can live anywhere on earth).

ps.. a more recent sad note here, was the category 5 tornado that destroyed a town (parkersburg) this weekend (8 deaths), the most powerful tornado - in this state - in over 30 years.
http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080528/NEWS/628929886/0/deathnotices

...peace....

As always, it's the worker who takes the heat. If the law put the corporate board of directors in jail for a bit the 'problem' would cease to exist. The rich always live by different rules, mainly because they pay to make 'em.

Adele,

You've spoken kindly to me before, but I have never had one of my original ideas called "brilliant" by anyone at CD, (or by much of anyone anywhere that I can recall). So, thanks.

I like the special minimum wage idea because it really could be "enforced" and with paperwork only. I also like it because there are some immigrants (legal or not) who are such good workers that the employers would still pay more willingly and those workers staying in America would not be left in poverty or exploited. I also like it for allowing employers a legal "out" when they really need to hire extra labor from anywhere they can get it, like to get crops out of fields. This really is nothing more than a form of import duty on imported labor, but, honestly I have never heard another single soul suggest it.

Funny that so many people who eat steak and burgers are against hunting, when hunted animals usually die much easier than do animals killed in slaughterhouses.

And, to look at another aspect of this, maybe, just maybe, Americans would be willing to work in slaughterhouses if they were run differently, with the animals being killed in a (much) more humane fashion. And if the workers were paid better.

And the same goes for Americans not being willing to work in the orchards, picking fruit. To tell you the truth, that kind of work can be enjoyable, if you're young and healthy. Sure, it's hard, but you're outdoors in pleasant surroundings, instead of being cooped up in an office, and the exercise is good for you. I know, because I did that kind of work when I was young. I wasn't paid much, though.

But you couldn't pay me enough to get me to work in a slaughterhouse.

Well, it's not a lie to say that meatpacking is a job American's won't do ... for the current wages and in the current working conditions. Even if the pay and working conditions were better, I doubt most Americans would work there. If I could make more money in a meatpacking facility than I make now in IT, I still wouldn't do it.

Daniel David: You've got the best idea I've heard yet for keeping illegal workers from pushing wages down even further:

"I still say that the (unheard of) answer to all this is a special and HIGH minimum wage (say, $20/hour) for all alien workers. You pay the illegal immigrant worker now, or you pay the difference later as a fine on every hour, no exceptions, no excuses about the documents being phony, and no statute of limitations."

Brilliant! It blows away the lie that meatpacking is a job "Americans won't do" ... and forces legal labor to be paid a decent wage. What's more, the illegal immigrants who should be agitating in their OWN countries for the right to work THERE at a decent wage, will have to go home and start a peaceful revolution.

If slaughterhouse workers relieve themselves on the line, it's because they are not allowed bathroom breaks by their sadistic management.

Why do I think that kelmer eats fast food burgers and buys the cheapest meat possible at the neighborhood WalMart, therefore consuming the same exact meat he/she claims is tainted with excrement ?

People can criticize undocumented alien workers all they want, but at least they're WORKING ! Why not direct the wrath at the people who are capable of working but don't because they'd rather take government handouts ?

Kelmer said: "Slaughterhouse workers have a tendency to take out their frustrations on the animals by gouging their eyes out and torturing them for fun."

Sure they do. Frustrated nurses also punch out their patients when no one looking and frustrated teachers slap their children silly as well...

What the hell is wrong with some people that they need to make up crap like this?

If America requires a class of undocumented, exploitable workers to allow us to eat, then we have gone horribly wrong. Same with build houses, do landscaping, or any of the other tasks that we are told American's won't do. We might have a hard time allowing the top 1% to take such a large chunk of our national income; some of that money might have to slide down the scale a bit. Remember dmai, that the situation you are seeing is even with exploitable workers. The solution to that is probably not more exploitation. I believe the solution is less exploitation, so that all the people you see having trouble feeding themselves have jobs that pay a living wage.

Just my opinion.

Kelmer__ I agree with dmai that you got totally carried away with your scare stories of meat packing plants. Just because once in a while, someone does a stupid action, or a carcass falls on the floor from the line, does not mean it is a common occurance. You are doing a disservice to the entire meat producing and packing industry, as well as those who need their products in their diet at a reasonable price.

I have read stories of cafe workers spitting in someone`s food. but do we all stop going out to eat for that reason? If you try hard enough, some bad publicity can be found for just about anything, but we cannot all withdraw from society to be sure we are safe from all threats or misbehaviour.

As for the illegals, just try to hire someone to do packing house labor at minimum wage and see how many you get. The same thing applies to harvesting most of the fruit and veggies we eat in this country. That is backbreaking work out in hot conditions and most people will not do that any more, as we have become accustomed to sitting by our PC in an air conditioned room. The Latino people can handle it if they are allowed to, so if we want to eat, we better let them work.

I still say that the (unheard of) answer to all this is a special and HIGH minimum wage (say, $20/hour) for all alien workers. You pay the illegal immigrant worker now, or you pay the difference later as a fine on every hour, no exceptions, no excuses about the documents being phony, and no statute of limitations.

The only choppers flying into Postville should have been to carry the unnanounced invasion by an army of accountants from IRS and DOL Wage & Hour Division----staying for perhaps a couple of weeks (or months) to compute the fines.

But actually penalize a corporation? In the wallet? Actually create an effective protectionism for the jobs of American citizens? Not in Republican America.

Used to be we had a Butcher's Union paid better than just a living wage. You could buy a house, thirty year note, fixed rate, single digit, raise a family, add a room, send your kids to college. REMEMBER WHEN YOU WEREN'T VASSAL PEASANTS IN A SLAVE STATE?

Used to be OSHA had an enforcement budget and wasn't run by the packer monopoly. REMEMBER WHEN YOU WEREN'T VASSAL PEASANTS IN A SLAVE STATE?

Use to be USDA had an enforcement budget and wasn't run by the packer monopoly.REMEMBER WHEN YOU WEREN'T VASSAL PEASANTS IN A SLAVE STATE?

Slave states are always ugly, brutal, and debased.

Go ahead and carve each other up over who's a sinful sub-human because "meat is murder". Vassal Peasants are allowed to carve each other up for any reason or no reason at all - just as long as you don't go after MAster.

Pieces of 9.

Uhhhhh, excuse me. People (and their humanoid ancestors) have been eating meat for a long, long time. I see no reason why it should stop now. Of course, everything in moderation.

And promoting higher food costs is going to add to the numbers of people in the US (and the rest of the world) who are already struggling to get enough to eat. My church just collected 29,000 food items to donate to those who can't afford enough to eat. 29,000 is the number of children who die EACH DAY of starvation. Try volunteering in a soup kitchen, Goose2, and get a clue about what's happening out there in the real world.

And Kelmer, while I suspect abuses do occur, I don't believe you have the information to be able to make such broad, sweeping judgements about the meat packing industry.

>>Companies hire undocumented workers because they can be exploited cheaply.<<

Exactly! If there were no pool of cheap labor (slave labor almost) then they will be forced to pay living wages and charge consumers what the REAL cost of the food is. This can only be a good thing over time. With food more dear, people will probably eat less and certainly waste less and the people employed at the companies can live with a living wage. Not work that I want to do certainly, but work none the less.

Also if it means beef and meat prices much higher, then fewer animals killed which is also a good thing.

Americans will do any work they can do that pays a living wage. It's that last part that corporations object to. Companies hire undocumented workers because they can be exploited cheaply.

I'm glad that someone commented on the job they were doing. The more people dragged out of slaughterhouses the better.
Its better for them and more importantly, their victims.
Slaughterhouse workers have a tendency to take out their frustrations on the animals by gouging their eyes out and torturing them for fun.

But since slaughterhouse workers have also been known to relieve themselves on the cutting line, I hope meat eaters enjoy the human excrement that gets into their steaks(read Gail Eisnitz Slaughterhouse for details).

Yummy. Now that's a true love of humans.