So now if we can just shoot and paralyze 160,000 more then the war will be over. Too bad this guy could not form some simple ideas BEFORE he went to Vietnam for paralysis and wisdom; too bad the public isn't shown the coffins rolling off the planes every night at 2:00 AM; too bad Americans have absolutely no powers of abstraction. When the whole damn country is crippled, then the war will end.

Anybody joining the military or drafted prior to 1968 was probably roped in. By 1968 there was plenty of information and opportunity to avoid becoming part of the problem.

In the information age that we now live in there is no excuse for becoming part of the problem.

Participating in a military or supporting troops commanded by a tyrant in the 21st century is immoral.

Obviously, the Iraq War was not a war worth fighting (except for oil companies, that is). The U.S., however, does need to be prepared in the event it is attacked. For this it is necessary for it to maintain an army, so I won't condemn recruiting altogether. Essentially, it is up to us to elect leaders who are not war mongers or have everything to gain from taking us into a war of choice. Seeing how the current pResident had a substantial background in oil and his VP was heavily involved in business that stood to profit from war, the U.S. voting population should have had an idea what lay ahead by electing them.

Thanks, Ron, for that quote from Mario Savio. I've been looking for it for a long time.

I actually think the war will end when the peace movement fills the streets of Washington, sits down, and refuses to move until it ends. For that, I'd go to Washington. Or we can do the same for every Federal building in the country.

It's already clear that the election this year will not end the war. Obama's position isn't much different from McCain's, despite all the pretty rhetoric. Let's never forget whose war Vietnam was (if you don't remember, look it up. Hint: Lyndon Johnson was probably the most liberal president we've ever had.)

If you want to make a difference electorally, vote for Cynthia McKinney and the rest of the Green Party's Peace Slate (in Oregon, at least 3 House Districts.) At least you'll be on record, and the Dems will be on notice. Write her in, if need be. That's what I had to do in 1968. If I could manage it at 21, the first time I ever voted, you can, too.

Military Recruiters is another way of saying Corporate Press Gang(sters).

Yes, we must work to stop recruiting abuse, but another problem that gets little or no mention is the rash of military recruiting commercials on TV. These army commercials are nothing more than pro-war Propaganda that serve to glorify war and militarism. We must get equal time for messages of peace. Imagine if we had a law that said for every pro-war recruiting commercial there must also be a message of peace---then perhaps we could start dismantling this horrible bloated military whose size bares no relation to the size of the threats we face...

Davis Logsdon May 28th, 2008 1:12 pm

Thanks for a voice of sanity in this discussion. I certainly understand Ron's view and agree with most of it.

I would suggest though that if you oppose a volunteer army you will end up with a draft. Its one or the other and I can't believe Ron would choose the draft either.

We learned last time that you stop these things before they start, after the fact.....you get what we have now.

And if there is anyone that believes our troops are coming home in the next 3 years, I've got some stock for you. Obama or Clinton or McKinney, makes no difference. Not happening.

The best we can hope for is to start pulling the #'s down. The War Machine is in Washington.

I'm going to commit treason or something like it here, and ask why does the US need a military force beyond the National Guard? This country hasn't been attacked by a sovereign nation since 1941 (although there were some gangsters who committed mass murder in 2001). Is there a compelling need for airbases thousands of miles from the USA? Why are there US troops protecting Germany and from whom?

I don't know what the recruiters tell the kids where I sometimes substitute teach, but I know they succeed in recruiting kids. We live in a depressed economic area and most of the kids who join are doing it for economic reasons.

Unfortunately, even some the the school staff have military spouses, so the model of joining the military to get out of Dodge is presented to the kids in a very favorable (though false) way.

Guns and uniforms are so cool, like video games, and unfortunately the kids are attracted to it like cats to radiator fluid (which attracts cats and kills them).

'Not One Child Left Behind' has specific language that actually forces schools to hand over personal information about kids to recruiters, otherwise they could lose federal funding. Talk about being beat over the head with the carrot.

The town of Arcata, CA is now trying to restrict recruiters from contacting kids under 18. They mentioned something about recruiting kids under 18 being against UN charter (I didn't get the exact citation).

Mr. Kovic continuously speaks with a voice of reason on this important matter. Please continue, as there are so few.

peace, justice, human rights for all.

vinlander...Excellent point BUT don't expect it to change in our lifetime. The military is BIG business. And until the country's ask the U.S. to leave, The Great World Police will be there.

MOT a treasonous comment, but one of logic and sanity;hence, it will never be recognized.

Recruiters are predators. They sneak through email, they literally pull you in by the sleeve of your shirt, they plain ol' lie. My daughter said the other day she WAS going to join the Military, as a Veteran, VFP, I had already warned her and threatened to drug and kidnap her if she tried this shit, instead I said "Okay, I will drive you over RIGHT NOW!", and I did. I already warned her you will be lied to, manipulated and offered money. She went into the Army(Geez)first, next door was the Navy. While she was in with Navy guys I talked to Army guy. I said, "You are F$$KING lieing! You are telling her she won't be on the ground, she won't be involved in Iraq!!!~You are a damn liar.", he said well women(he used 'girls')aren't allowed on the frontlines, I said so they in GD Transport getting blown up by IED's, they are getting raped by superiors!, Now deny this, Vet to Vet F$$KING deny it and you better stare me in my eyes, of course all he did was sit there. Next day she decides to come with me because we set up a Sea of Tombstones on Veterans Day and Memorial Day, I was glad because my Chapter Prez of VFP would be there. I said c'mon meet Bill, he gave testimony at the 1st Winter Soldier in '73 with Kerry, he is asking, What are you doing, you know they lie, this will happen and that will happen. Now she is going to college as was planned. I hate recruiters liars and thieves that con our sons and daughters to be murdered in foreign lands.

Thanks Ron for all of the TRUTH you have shared over the years.

Kids are indoctrinated from early childhood to create soldiers. My generation got GI JOE and Major Mat Mason, this one got HALO and RAMBO. It starts way before the recruitment office.

A few thoughts.
There once was a school in a little rural community where the teachers revealed the truth to the children. The children then began to intelligently question the recruiter when he would come to steal their lives. Eventually, they began to mock him, make fun of him because he would not / could not answer their perfectly legitimate questions. Now, he rarely comes to our school, and the children are glad.

I had the honor and privilege to march in a Memorial Day parade with other VFP members this past Monday. We were strategically placed near the end of the parade, comfortably stranded on the end of what the parade committee deemed their priority list. As we marched through this city of approximately 100,000 a strange thing happened: people began to get off their chairs and applaud us, wave at us, flash the peace sign (Yes! TWO fingers instead of one!!). There was stoney silence from a few - but those in disagreement were eerily now in the minority.

The machine can be stopped, but as Ron states, it will never stop itself out of any moral investigation of its own actions. We must be the agents of change. Now is the time. We are the people.

The U.S. armed forces are using public high schools as primary recruiting grounds. Under No Child Left Behind school districts are compelled to provide the nation's 14,000 military recruiters with student's names, addresses and phone numbers unless parents/guardians choose to opt out. The military spends more than $2 billion to persuade young men and women to join its ranks, through radio, television, magazine, billboard and newspaper ads and the Internet. The U.S. armed forces use cash enlistment bonuses, money for college, opportunities for adventure and travel to entice impressionable recruits. Undocumented youth are targeted for enlistment with promises of citizenship. The Junior Reserved Officer Training Corps (JROTC) is operating in nearly 1,700 high schools. Approximately 45 percent of the participants enlist in the military. The Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) is used to identify and explore potential military occupations and provide a source of "pre-qualified leads." While women and Black enlistees are decreasing the Pentagon is honing in on Latinos who comprise 16% of the 17-to-21 year-old population.

The presence of military recruiters in our schools gives credence to the notion that participating in the indiscriminate violence of war is a viable career option. Society counts on our schools to provide a positive environment for learning and social development. Military recruitment, testing and training are not consistent with the educational mission of schools. Our educational system has been effectively militarized with recruiters having widespread access to school facilities, student records and to students themselves. The values of the military, which emphasize blind obedience, hierarchy and conformity with established procedures, are in basic respects, incompatible with the values of our educational system, which stresses self-discipline, the free exchange of ideas and diversity of behavior and opinion. Our schools should not be serving the Department of "Defense." Often as not, youth only hear the armed forces' point of view regarding military enlistment. The issues of fighting, killing and dying are rarely discussed by military recruiters during their contact with youth. A class in conscientious objection ought to be added to the curriculum in secondary schools. Young people cannot make career choices freely when the military spends taxpayers' money on slick advertising campaigns to lure low-income and non-white youth faced with the prospect of fewer employment options with the "glamour" of a military career. Defense Department population studies verify that most recruits are drawn from lower socio-economic backgrounds in the so-called volunteer military. The overwhelming majority of military jobs have no civilian transference.

Perhaps the most compelling reason to stop military recruiting in our schools is the existence of widespread fraud and malpractice by recruiters. The General Accounting Office found that recruiters have engaged in sexual harassment, strong-arm tactics, falsification of documents and helping high school students cheat on entrance exams as reported by the New York Times in order to meet enlistment goals. Improprieties are considered to be much higher because the armed forces do not track such cases. Selling military jobs is a deceptive, bait and switch enterprise and our educational system should not be party to selling snake oil to our young men and women. The military exists to carry out U.S. foreign policy; it is not a job training corps. The military's sole reason to exist is to prepare for and wage war.

Leonard McNeil, Vice-Mayor
89 Villa Drive
San Pablo, CA 94806
(510) 215-1262

Ron was tricked. This was 1963. I have seen his movie. The 2nd in the Oliver Stone (AN HONORABLY DISCHARED FULL COMBAT VIETNAM VETERAN) Vietnam Trilogy , 1986-1993. Happy 62nd July 4th, Sir, Semper Fi, Do Or die.

PS - RAMBO????????

I JUST WONDER what THE REAL ONE , From Whom Sylvester Stallone STOLE the Idea for his so movie sequence, WOULD HAVE TO SAY about THAT!

http://www.bogritz.com/

Forgive him, Jimbo.

Great to hear from Ron Kovic again. I was a draftee going in back in '68, while he was being medically evacuated back. While inside, I was in the American Servicemens Union. Today, I'm active in Veterans for Peace.

This most recent Memorial Day, the local speaker heading up the local ceremony in Veterans' Park for the VFW, American Legion, and other mainstream veterans groups used the metaphor of soldiers as citizens who "once wrote out a blank check" payable to the United States of America, some of whom had that check presented and cashed in with their lives - the soldiers who never came home, who are the sybmolic focus of most Memorial Day ceremonies.

While that is an apt and appropriate imagery for military service in many past wars, it is not what I hear from many young returning Iraq theatre of occupation veterans today. Instead, I hear a lot more about how with an all-volunteer force, it's more of a contractual relationship - I was paid up front with expensive skills training that some day will be transferrable into the middle class job market, so pulling a tour of duty on the eastern front of empire Americana is my quid pro quo. More like repaying a debt than writing a check in blank.

Also, I hear a lot of returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets react to peace activist criticism of the existing overseas GWOT missions with comments like "You (adults) never should have urged me to enlist and go as a matter of patriotic duty in response to 9/11, if you weren't then going to fully support me and stick up for me when I went off and did what I was ordered to do." Different rhetoric, different war.

Personally, my approach to local high school officials contemplating military recruitment schemes in the public schools is if you can't keep the recruiters out, at least demand that alongside their pamphlets you make available the VFP-sponsored comic book style critique of the history of militarism and American interventionism abroad entitled "Addicted to War."

It's an excellent resource to genuinely provide fair and balanced discussion about career choices on a deadly serious issue.

Bill from Saginaw

vinlander May 28th, 2008 3:29 pm
"Is there a compelling need for airbases thousands of miles from the USA? Why are there US troops protecting Germany and from whom?"

Now there is a really good point. Or Korea, or quite a few other bases around the world. We shouldn't be providing militay secyrity on site to anyone.

"Under No Child Left Behind school districts are compelled to provide the nation's 14,000 military recruiters with student's names, addresses and phone numbers unless parents/guardians choose to opt out."

Thats something that should be stopped immediately. And wouldn't you know George and his little chickens would do that. Recruiters have absolutely no business on the high school campus. You don't need recruiters for an ROTC program of if the parents of a particular school have opted not to have one, you really don't need any.

Or collage either for that matter. Kids can go to the recruiting office if they choose to.

"A class in conscientious objection ought to be added to the curriculum in secondary schools."

we certainly don't need something like that. Propaganda is propaganda no matter the source.

"The values of the military, which emphasize blind obedience, hierarchy and conformity with established procedures, are in basic respects, incompatible with the values of our educational system, which stresses self-discipline, the free exchange of ideas and diversity of behavior and opinion."

Our educational system is more broken than our army and its product is pathetic. Self-discipline? You sure are at an upscale school. The teachers I know and family member teachers in 6 different states certainly have a differnt bunch of students than you do. And most certainly question your claim of the free exchange of ideas.

The average HS graduate can barely read, they have trouble understanding an op-ed page and history? You'd think they came from the Sudan.

And I'd point out the reason for "blind obedience" as you term it, is that under fire you don't have time to take a vote or to decide who should do what.

I'd also point out that the NYT hasn't had the greatest track record for veracity lately.

Military recruiters, like all military service personnel have their orders and are expected to follow them and achieve the desired results. Recruiters at college campuses, for the most part are dealing with students 18 years of age and older; they can make their own decision and if not, then maybe they need to be back home with the parents. The military needs personnel; who else is going to defend this country against its enemies? The commentators on this website - I wonder?

"When the whole damn country is crippled, then the war will end."

Well said , Ghawar . As sincere and true as Ron Kovic's commentary was , you said it all in 12 words .

Ron, you atelling it like it is! Keep up the good work! We behind you all the way. I don't believe Barack Obama is aconsidering you for a running mate right along with Jim Webb.

Getting moderated again, this place is chock full of the Departments JO's. Thanks CD, you slimey cochon!

In spite of all those reasoned and passionate and sensitive responses to Ron Kovic, we still have someone announce "The military needs personnel; who else is going to defend this country against its enemies?"--which is a military cliche often used (perhaps in different words)to lure young people into becoming slaves to the governmental and military machine by appealing to their, should I say, romantic nature in which they think they are protecting democracy and freedom and decency and good people against anti-democractic brain-washed evil people. The truth is that most (all?) of the wars we have been in, we have started--to protect the $ for the "leading" (rich) citizens. Don't take my word for it, do some research--that means find out for your self, especially in the way the $ (our money!) has been used/abused in Iraq, and in case we ignore the historical, include a bit of research on how the US treated the people of the Phillipines, trying to protect themselves from occupation by the new invader, the US, after they were "liberated" by our war with Spain: consider, you might find out that the US military committed themselves to something like what today we call "genocide," and were welcomed back as heroes. Yes.

I keep getting moderated please tell me if my question/reply re;Rockerbabe 1 is up or not, please

Vinlander good point MANY of the founding fathers warned against the danger of standing armies. Read the anti-Federalist paper "The President as Military King" and see if you don't find it eerily prescient for today:

"Before martial law is declared to be the supreme law of the land, and your character of free citizens be changed to that of the subjects of a military king—which are necessary consequences of the adoption of the proposed constitution—let me admonish you in the name of sacred liberty, to make a solemn pause. Permit a freeman to address you, and to solicit your attention to a cause wherein yourselves and your posterity are concerned. The sun never shone upon a more important one. It is the cause of freedom of a whole continent of yourselves and of your fellow men.…

A conspiracy against the freedom of America, both deep and dangerous, has been formed by an infernal junto of demagogues. Our thirteen free commonwealths are to be consolidated into one despotic monarchy. Is not this position obvious? Its evidence is intuitive .… Who can deny but the president general will be a king to all intents and purposes, and one of the most dangerous kind too—a king elected to command a standing army. Thus our laws are to be administered by this tyrant; for the whole, or at least the most important part of the executive department is put in his hands."

http://www.infoplease.com/t/hist/antifederalist/philadelphiensis.html

Stand in their doorways and block up their halls!

Turce MANY of us have been "moderated" lately when will the CD moderators make some sort of statement as to what's up? The natives are getting restless...

SAN PABLO MAC: Excellent post. Thank you for your efforts to raise awareness!

Rockerbabe1 The original intent of the founding fathers was that there was to be no standing army and instead we were to be defended by at will militias organized when the need arises. Although I am perhaps 85+ % radical lefty being pro choice, pro gay rights, pro government support of the poor, pro safety regs, pro National parks, and pro revolution against corporate control I do actually think the far right is correct about the role of militias in our national defense. In the Constitution it says:

"Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html

Notice there is NO real provision for a permanent standing army, and an implication the army ought not to be funded for more than 2 years and the militia is given far more coverage than the army, and if you see the previous posting I made the idea of standing army was VERY controversial at the time the Constitution was written. So in sum military recruiters in our schools is not only fundamentally ethically repulsive but against fundamental American ideas as stated in the Constitution.

Further the national Guard is NOT the sole militia as many disingenuously claim.

" (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=10&sec=311

mrraven500, I know @ the GENE@AL ST&*KE, yesterday was html links, only 2, today I used UNCLAS$IFIED, because of predatory recruiting practices. I never was moderated over the past year but 2 in 1 day and 1 yesterday.
Just wanted to know if that damn comment re;the silly named rockerbabe
Thanks, do not have time for word processor, i know which words to break up, the last one was absurd though, F$$K this site.
HEY CD I was on the Hill 1 1/2 weeks ago, all those bumperstickers I bought from you I plastered on all the House members cars!!!!!

As I have been saying: a very effective way of stopping the American war machine is to CONDEMN our troops.

DON'T SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!
DON'T SUPPORT OUR WAR CRIMINALS!!

McCain endlessly reminds us that he's a war hero, and the press echoes with waving flags. He is, but he's a lucky one. He came home physically intact and has found wealth, fame and power. He uses jingoist rhetoric about supporting the troops, but votes against their interests most of the time. He eagerly places them, and a vastly greater number of innocent civilians in faraway places, in harm's way and displays appalling callousness toward their suffering.

Hillary Clinton, George Bush and John McCain visit hospitals and shed crocodile tears for the victims of their intrigues, then deny them adequate care and compensation.

The best way to support the troops is to bring them home.

Hollow Point:
welcome to Canada, glad you made it. I hope your kids will be safe now from the Bush regime. When MCCAIN gets in or that puppet OB I can see the draft will follow. I know it will take time but when you read the Toronto Star and watch the CBC for a few months you will see the truth is out there just not in America media.

turce: If you are being "moderated", then maybe you should be respectful and use standard English so the question can be published and then answered. So, what was your question to me?

ok, gracias
I go tomorrow to confront stupid brainwashed military pukes,
that ask if they tell 18 y o about all in Iraq chew khat

i will fuck them ask to hit a 54 y.o. man surfer shark fisherman for 45 years
local boy, your hommie......

hit me asshole brainwashed to kill little brown skin or black people
I will fuck with their needle dick minds
for my entertainment
here in ignorant redneck riviera
b 4 i go back El Salvador next week

they fuck with me,?
i always need crab bait and then know where they sleep.....................

best to remove these traitors of 'la gente'

12 million Mexican with guns
gotta love it

see www.totse.com on how to make what you need to eliminate the scum bags of the present admin

wake up sheeples
ready to rock? does notr metter for me, this place is very polluted, nuclear and sunny point, Wilmywood,,NC all due to your military madness

wait for the signal,compadres
know your targets

Mike Peters keep rocking it man... As Steve Earle said the revolution starts now...

Insipidmilitaryindustrialapolagistnonbabe said "The military needs personnel; who else is going to defend this country against its enemies? "

I always reserve the right to determine for MYSELF who the "enemy" is, anyone with more than 3 functioning brain cells knows whether they are a leftist or Libertarian that the war crime committing Constitution violating U.S. government is the number 1 "enemy" of it's citizens, followed by the out of control corporations, and then followed by the banks. Of course all these people work synergistically so perhaps the easiest formulation is the military industrial complex is your enemy.

Knowing who the real enemy is BTW is just one reason I break with the near consensus on CD favoring gun control.

Military recruiters do have quotas and they do get 'bonuses' for enlistments, regardless of what they tell you. I went in to a recruitment center and asked; the guys in there admitted it.

It's time for the quota and bonus system to be stopped.

Thanks for expressing your thoughts Ron.

I promise ;) to not glue any toothpicks. I really hate the recruiters shiny cars in bright colors.

Do you think people would be more agreeable to outsourcing national defense? We do it already with port security, aircraft and electronics manufacturing...

Oh wait. That would be slavery, right? Importing foreigners to do the dirty work? Lying to children however, seems to be a perfectly legal means to a wholly disgusting ends.

Let's contract minors for an undisclosed period of service. Four years? Tell that to all the recalled and stop-lossed troops.

Veterans for Peace were recently excluded from our armed forces day parade. Disgusting.

As a parent, I am looking into homeschooling. It'll get worse before it gets better.

Ron,
I read "Born on the 4th of July" in the AIR CONDITIONED engine-room of a nuke attack boat, under the North Atlantic, in 1977. Your description of how 19 yr olds died in the mud, made me realize how lucky I was. Death under water is swift and rare. Infantrymen frequently die slowly in pain and sewage.

But don't blame the recruiters for Iraq. Blame the Nation. This country allowed itself to be smitten by the war-monger Project for the New American Century crowd. Hatred is now a national religion. People send hateful E-mails about immigrants, Muslims, and Iranians. Scott McClellan just grew a set of testicles and admitted BushCo lied us into the Iraq war. The "Good Scott" (Scott Ritter USMC) tried valiantly to warn America of the unfolding scam. America watched "Idol"!

Recruiters were accurate in my case, I learned a valuable trade. I believe a first rate military should be a source of pride for any country. Defending against aggression is the right of all nations. But deploying the force should be given intense scrutiny. Truthful, accurate, information is essential for making these decisions. Blaming "intelligence failures" is really lying, as shown by the "Downing Street Memos".

Support Wise Use of the Troops!

Well last one did not even come up, I suppose I am banned. time to wash hard drive and change username I s'pose.

Now the one prior to the one that will eventually wrote is being moderated and I used the you know words with asterisks and # signs.
They have the Department Of Homeland Security on this site for sure.

Oh, sorry. Thank you for your defense mrraven.

Ron Kovic's advocacy for counter-recruitment is a practical thing. We can all get involved with this effort and stop present and future wars dead in their tracks - simply by talking to the next war's recruits, our children.

Please get involved. Many national organizations have initiated local groups to inform students about the realities of military service, recruiter promises and student alternatives to being pushed by recruiter marketing campaigns.

Please do a search for "counter-recruitment." You will find groups such as the National Lawyers Guild, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC), Coalition Against Militarism in Schools (CAMS) and many more that have established local branches of active citizens. Members of these groups do simple things like attend PTA meetings, pass out leaflets to students before class and lobby state legislatures to remove opt-in clauses in schools that put student information into the hands of military recruiters.

You should know, as noted above, that military recruiters lie to the students (the poster above is correct that the Congressional Accounting Office wrote a study chronicaling recruiter lies, which it called "irregularities"). The biggest lie is the biggest lure: money for education. It turns out that very few veterans actually get money to continue their education after serving. Military training also seldom results in useful training for subsequent civilian jobs (another lie).

Recruiters use modern marketing techniques, such as knowing what kids' favorite TV show are, befriending the "leaders" among kids, etc. They have a millions from the government to rope kids into the war effort, and Bush's No Child Left Behind school funding act has a clause that puts student home phone numbers and school records into the hands of recruiters. They call students at home. Recruiters can't be evicted from campus without the school potentially losing its federal funding.

If you aren't mad, you need to feel it. This is all of our problem. A recruited child will bring woe to his family, as he's returned dead or maimed, or psychologically scarred.

Dear Ron,

Remember the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" that never happened? With that perspective of witnessing how it was planned, executed by deception, treason, and war crimes; the US War in Indochina. Not to "defend the US Navy on the high seas!"? But now we know about Operation Northwoods and can see it as a rewrite on 9/11 with little imagination! Making that the prime argument against the wars of aggression by whatever name.
You are right, absent a return of the draft, the recruiters along are is must life destructive force we can find to confront. I have been arrested for doing just that, among other antiwar acts.
But, no one arrest the recruiters, the principals of the high school that sell-out their students, as do their teachers, coaches, neighbors, preacher, and every vet and enlightened soul on the block or in rural America who watched these kids grow-up in their midst, and never took the time to share what they know of the poison of war.
So is fair to say, if you are not consciously and courageously engaged in dissemination of what we have learned, tragically the hard way, that which we did not, soon enough, but irrespective of that, share it with others as long as we live, we are conniving facilitators and aiding and abetting the war crimes and self-destruction that follows those sucked into it?
And what of all the little federal flags, are they not obnoxious and obsequious in their craven display? That is on a psychological scale, nothing less than the endorsement of illegal wars of aggression, based on the 9/11 False Flag pretext in sync will a conspiring highly centralized corporate mass media owned and controlled by the military industrial-complex.
Facilitators are also WAR CRIMINALS! Those silent in the military, the classroom, the administration of our high schools and colleges, the journalist, editors, publishers, and all those who do not "throw their bodies upon the gears of the war machine" which includes all those disinformation commercials plaster all over the mass media, print and electronic, during ballgames. Even the pledge of allegiance to the flag is not contrary to supporting and defending the constitution against all enemies, domestic and foreign. Wouldn't that be better, it was the oath we took upon being a member of the US Armed Forces? "'I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"'
Have you read the empowering article by Professor Lawrence Masqueda, in which he lays out the most important thing every member of the military MUST honor and obey, that our oaths demanded of us, and we raised our right-hand and took it, one and all. But, that alone does not tell the story, for what our duty was. A Duty to Disobey All Unlawful Orders - An Advisory to US Troops -DOMESTIC AND INTERNATIONAL LAW
a moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ..
If the war is indeed illegal, members of the armed forces have a legal and moral obligation to resist illegal orders, according to their oath of induction.
The evidence from an international perspective is overwhelming. The United States Constitution makes treaties that are signed by the government equivalent to the "law of the land" itself, Article VI, para. 2. Among the international laws and treaties
The Nuremberg Principles, which define as a crime against peace, "planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for accomplishment of any of the forgoing." (For many of these treaties and others, see the Yale Avalon project at www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm.
Bob Dylan stated it most powerfully that is now on You Tube with visuals added in his signature song: Master of War
One of key empowering weapons against illegal wars of aggression is the surprisingly, the US Constitution, International Law, and US Law. Yes, it is criminal in the United States to be a war criminal, yet the country is governed criminally, which actually not possible, constitutionally. So, the remedy is judging the violation of the US Constitution is intolerable; to the degree that anything contrary is 'null and void' meaning does not and never did, respectively.
The vacuum, has put the government back in our hands, in spite of our incompetence at self-government, it is not too late, but nonetheless retarded that we didn't apprehend these despotic enemies of the US Constitution and therefore, 'We, the people of the United States, and in fact the world or most of it, being subjected to US interference without invitation, which amounts to imperialism, just walking with an aircraft carrier and the CIA having hit-teams in the area. Mercenary thugs, with and without badges and uniforms, just on the payroll, a mercenary by any name, is a mercenary; career military who will bomb anywhere, and that is true of land and sea forces; all in contravention of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the US Constitution, Laws of Land Warfare, and FM 27-10 Chapter 8, addresses the right of reprisal, between the invaded, occupied, and murdered by the millions, have every legal, moral, and Right of Self-Defense, a universal right of every country, every person, everywhere; can use any possible means to repeal and drive out the aggressor, invader, occupying murderous thieves.
Yes the trust, the contract, the covenant, the terms; that said we will allow a few to speak for the many in fair and free elections, and the adoption of the Bill of Rights, otherwise the US Constitution would not have been ratified, for being a relative piece of shit without it!
It is the same old Yankee Imperialism, typically attacking small nearly defenseless countries had done nothing to justify being attacked or invaded, but they were regardless. And that is exactly like today, as always; that wars are instigated, provocations are part of it, and if that fails, there is False Flag operations well rehearsed and really to go, as was Operation Northwoods, that was updated in location and country of interest to invade and commit genocide, steal the cities and countryside, a looting, raping in every way possible. Lenny Bruce said to an audience of perhaps a hundred at a nightclub in San Francisco. Lenny said, "How many Europeans are in the audience?" At least a third of the hands are raised. Lenny continues in saying, "I was in the navy in world war two, and I was in Europe, and there is one thing I never want you to forget; that we tried to fuck your mother for a candy bar." --- I was there.

People who are raised on constant entertainment (i.e. your current young generations) are severely disabled in the realm of analysis and judgment. This is intentional on the part of corporate purveyors of this "culture." It is very difficult to educate people who have been brainwashed since birth -- but I'll keep trying. Over-population of the planet induces many to live in virtual places that distract them from the uncomfortably crowded whereabouts of their physical self. My prediction: the circus will probably not stop until the bread runs out and people start to wake up from their electronically induced daze. And as soon as the oil runs out, the bread will quickly follow.

US taxslaves demonstrate a healthy appetite for war debt. Now they're ready to move up to a full mercenary army. Private soldiers will be non-citizens with pay of $25k/year plus citizenship and officers will be US citizens, $250k/year. Recruitment will be no problem for the Blackwater Crusaders - just a few classified ads in the newspapers.

notgoingalong, 5:20am post

Brilliant, articulate comments! And thanks for the links.
As a combat veteran of another unjust, illegal crime against humanity perpetrated by the United States, I salute you for your efforts!

"HEY CD I was on the Hill 1 1/2 weeks ago, all those bumperstickers I bought from you I plastered on all the House members cars!!!!!"

"As I have been saying: a very effective way of stopping the American war machine is to CONDEMN our troops.

DON'T SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!
DON'T SUPPORT OUR WAR CRIMINALS!!"

Very, very brave of you folks.

Where did you find that this is an illegal war? It of course is not. The idiot started it with full legal authority under US law.

When anyone makes false claims or uses the jingoistic slogans of the sixties, you simply weaken the case against a war that should never have been, an unjust war, but we started it, so we will have to fix it.

Caterwaul all you like, but what is our responsibility to the citizens of Iraq? Are we going to say....excuse me, we had a nutcase for a President, but we've got a new one. See you later, have a good life.

There is a lot of BS floating around on this site (some would suggest my comments are part of it)but if we don't start getting a bit more realistic in our aims, stop advocating hard left positions, liberals will once again be consigned to the cheap seats.

If Pelosi and Reid are your idea of legislators and leaders of the liberal cause, we are in real trouble.

And just for curiosity, don't some of you get tired of bashing our country? Its better than any other I've ever seen. If you've seen a better one, name it. If you can't name one, perhaps you should reconsider.

Trot on over to China and try saying some of the things you say here. You'll get a quick lesson in what you had here. Or Burma, that would be a treat.

Lets get it out....where is the country that is so much better than ours? Who is this model of humanity? Which one is it that even comes close to our record of aid to the rest of the world? Who exactly are you measuring our country against. Its time to get specific.

Don't want the military? Whats your specific alternative?

Don't like our country? Who do you want us to be like?

Don't like a capitalistic society? Whats your alternative?

Would any of you like to trade the security of America for the security of say....Venezuela or Darfur?

Prefer North Korea or South Korea? Which would be your model?

I'm not saying for a minute that we haven't done some thiings wrong, that there aren't some people that need to answer for their actions, that we won't make mistakes in the future. We are definately imperfect. But what we are not is a predatory. imperalistic society. You insult the American people when you say that. Its not true, never has been.

We will exclude business and corporations from the above remark. Thats an entirely different discussion.

Military recruiters, songs, movies, GI Joe dolls, some video games, politicians, propanda in general, it's all the same: a conspiracy to glorify war for profit.

Thomas More, in order to make a point that the United States is a better than average country, peace and freedom-wise, you listed some countries that are well known for their poor current human rights records. That's easy to do. Why not list a few countries that have good current humanitarian records in order to make your comparison? Iceland, Denmark, Norway, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany (most of Europe, in fact), Australia, and Canada all have better current humanitarian records than the United States does. The US foments or starts wars all over the world to promote the business interests of US corporations. The US is in the business of overthrowing other countries. The biggest drug dealer on earth is the CIA.

But it's not the troops fault, it's the propaganda machine's. The recruiters are, perhaps, more to be pitied than censured. After all, they're just doing what they've been taught to do, what they've been conditioned to do. So, if we pass laws barring them from doing any recruiting on high school campuses all we will be doing is helping them to not do the wrong thing. But we're propagandized, too, so we probably won't so this.

Capitalism? There's nothing wrong with capitalism, as long as it's buffered with some controls, but when you let capitalism run rampant you end up with a monster. Pure capitalism has no soul. But arguing against people who see problems with capitalism doesn't fly when you use an either/or argument. Just because someone wants to make some changes in how a capitalistic society works doesn't mean they're against capitalism per se.

Here's a list of changes that I think should be made in our capitalistic society: No starting wars for profit and if a war is started for a reason other than profit no one should be able to make a profit from it once it's started, no selling water (water is the necessary for all life on earth and should be free to all), no draining dry a community's water supply to make soft drinks, free health care for all (you shouldn't have to forgo health treatment because you're not wealthy or because you don't have health insurance) and subsidized housing for the poor and elderly. And, to help pay for all this, cut back on the military (not on the troops, though, but on high-tec, expensive weapons).

So, because I'd like to see the above changes made, does that mean I'm advocating a communist system?

And when people bash the US, it's not necessarily because they think the US is a bad country per se. It could be because they think it's a great country gone bad and want it to go back to being great.