What is the definition of victory in Iraq, John ?

Will victory be achieved when the Iraqis sign their oil over to the oil companies ?

I watched part of this press conference.

McCain said he supported the right of free speech. As the protesters were being removed from a public forum and being deprived of that same right.

And every time the protesters started, McCain's supporters started chanting his name like a religious mantra. Don't forget folks, this is the same demographic who have blindly supported Bush and his various war crimes.

McCain's audience of trained seals applauded and barked their approval when he announced he would pursue massive increases in nuclear power generation, using 'any means necessary' to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapons technology, and staying in Iraq until the bloody bitter end.

Even if the Bush junta doesn't leave office due to martial law, they will still be in power.

Hillary is the lame horse in last place in the Democratic nomination race, Obama will most likely never live to take office, and McCain is EXACTLY what the MIC is looking for in a puppet/figurehead president.

"Victory" for Bush/McCain means having dissidents removed.

The Japanese samurai would disembowel themselves rather than face dishonor.
You cannot regain your honor by 'winning' a dishonorable war. Truly the honorable thing to do would be to immediately withdraw all US forces from the region, issue an international apology, and begin war crimes tribunals. It is POSSIBLE that we might then regain some honor in the eyes of the world.
McCain promises 'victory' with no definitition of such. That is clearly insane. It's like playing a scoreless game of basketball and screaming that you're going to win.
Honor? No. There is no honor in war.

The War on the World:

U.S. reaction was led by President Bush, who said he is "deeply troubled" by the extension of Aung San Suu Kyi's latest house arrest...

Troubled by the exposure of Chevronleeza's appeasement and involvement with this Junta?

It's a mistake to think that US policies at home and abroad -- e.g., the War in Iraq, the erosion of civil liberties, torture, economic breakdowns -- are happening simply because of Bush and his fellow-neecons.

The real culprit is capitalism.

Capitalism has brought misery and suffering to millions of people for hundreds of years.

And if that's not bad enough, what we have now, on a global level, is "corporatism" -- best described as "capitalism gone wild."

And what do the two major US political parties and their mouthpieces have to say about corporatism and the havoc its creating for *billions* of people? Not a word. Not a peep. Not a syllable.

Obama isn't talking. Hillary isn't talking. McCain isn't talking.

Omerta. The first rule of the ganster code.

And any sentient human being (let alone anyone informed enough to contribute to these commondreams.org threads!) KNOWS IT.

Will either Hillary or Obama, or any other mainstream Democrat speak truth to power:

... to Wall Street;

... to the Pentagon and its obscene, bloated budget;

... to the CIA;

.. to Big Oil;

... to the pharmaceutical giants, the nation's premier drug dealers;

... to the insurance companies;

... to the banks;

... to the monied interests that exploit the worler, the consumer and the environment?

Will they? Have they?

Quit folling yourselves. If elected, Obama is exactly the fig leaf the ruling class in America knowws they desperatley need. Knows they desperately need because they know that they must give the *illusion* of change, given the widespread social and political unrest here and in the rest of the world.

And those who support party appartchik such as Obama, the Clintons, et al are simply enabling those who desperately that fig leaf.

-- What about the growth of social inequality -- the growing gap between not just the rich and the poor but also the rich and the middle class?

-- What about the unholy alliance between Israel and the United States -- the predatory, criminal policies of the United States and Israel in the Middle East?

Is there one -- just one -- mainstream poltician willing to stand up to the Israel government and its US representative, AIPAC (the American Israeli Political Action Group)?

ANSWER: No.

I find these posts at commondreams.org to fall into three groups. One is the group of people who are resolutely cynical as regards the general population. These are the people who are convinced the average person is stupid. Not so.

This is not only "blaming the victim," it also suggests an elitism that is essentially no different than the elitism of the exploiters. They, too, have a low regard for the intelligence of the general public!

The second group are those who see Obama as "the answer arrived." The most superficial examination of Obama's past, e.g., his voting record, reveals him to be nothing more than a member-in-good-standing of the economic elite. He's quite acceptable to the ruling class; if not, they wouldn't have given him more corporate money than either Hillary of McCain.

The third group of commondream.org posters question commondreams.org itself -- along a host of other "cruise missile liberal" sources fo information, such as, Mother Jones, The Nation, Air America, the Village Voice, Alternet, etc.

These liberals are the people who keep telling us to "vote for the lesser of the two evils." Why? Because it will make *their* lives so much better.

I mean, if you work at, say, The Nation, and the Democrats get in power, won't the parties you get invited to be really neat! And all those Democratic functionaries you can hang out with; they's so mych more fun than those Republicans! Oh and the social inequalities in the US and the rest of the world -- hey, they never cared about those kins of things in thapst, why should they start now. Vote the lesser of the two evils, they tell us. And, dutifully, those most exploited by sch advice having been going right ahead and doing that.

And look where we are.

Such "opinion makers" balme the Bush Administration for many things, but yet are silent about all the things the Democratic Party has enabled. ...

... The stealing of the 2000 Election. Mum's the word.

... The attempted overthrow of the government, via the impeachment trial of Bill Clinton. Mum's the word.

... The CIA and what it's done historically in Republican as well Democratic administrations. Mum's the world.

... The overwhelming case for impeachment. Mum's the word.

What they want is not to change the system -- read: the systematic exploitation of BILLIONS of people -- they're ok with that. Whjat they long for is a return to "the good ole days" when they could go on benefitting from the "normal" injustices in the world, and still at the same time delude themselves into believing that they are civilized because they believe in abortion, prayers in school and foreign film festivals.

I mean, why else vote for the lesser of the two evils unless you believe in evil?

Progressive need to understand that what's needed is a clear break with the Democratic Party. This requires looking at "The Big Picture." And the big picture doesn't mean voting for Obama and then crossing your fingers.

Examine the voting record of the Democrats in Congress on:

... the War (starting it and funding it);

... the bankruptcy bill;

... the Patriot Act;

.. the ok to Bush to go ahead and invade Iran, if he's a mind to;

... the enabling energy legislation, written almost word-for-word by this country's energy giants;

... the enabling Telecommunications Act; giving even more power to fewer and fewer multimedia giants;

.. the bipartisan support of Bill Clinton's so-called "Welfare Reform Act."

This is all BIPARTISAN legislation!

Let's put it this way ...

If there was a war crimes trial, the Democrats would be in the dock along with the Republicans.

And if there was a trial for all the harm done to the domestic economies of the United States and the rest of the world, currently and historically, the Democrats would be in the dock along with the Republicans.

We are a country of idiots. 70% of us disagree
with Bush and the direction the country is headed, yet 50% of voters are backing McSame.
WTF? Do they not see that McCain is more of the
same? More tax cuts for the rich, more lives
and money lost in Iraq, and he wants to bomb,
bomb, bomb Iran. He can't remember which side
he is on with immigration from day to day. He was against Bush's tax cut for the rich during a time of war but now he wants to make it permanent--did I miss the end of the war? And
let's call it what it is, not a war but the occupation of a country. I have little faith
that Obama, or Hillary, will do much of what they say but we can hope. There is that slight chance that it might be better. With McLame I am convienced that he will be no better than Shrub, and he just might be worse. For someone
who graduated 853rd out of 859 cadets at the Naval Academy, he can't be any smarted than the
cheerleader in office. He talks about honor and winning, but is against the GI Bill to help
the ones who serve get an education. Just like
Bush, he gives the troups pep talks and pats them on the back, but when it comes down to it, piss on them, let them remain uneducated
so they can reenlist and fight in Iran if we
ever finish in Iraq. Can't we elect someone
we, as well as the rest of the world, can be
proud to call Mr. President?

I just love it when US politicians, talk about the "civilised nations of the World".
Now, I know that I could be accused of reading between the lines, but did he mean to exclude Iran perchance? Just imagine, if you are an Iranian diplomat, and these comments come from a potential president (note please, no capital P), would you be prepared to do business with a Neanderthal?

decrpittex said: 70% of us disagree with Bush and the direction the country is headed, yet 50% of voters are backing McSame. WTF?

The reason for this is that Americans are generally unhappy with the war in Iraq but are afraid of 'losing' or being branded as cowards or losers.
They fall for the "terrorists will follow us home" line as well.
Since they don't know what 'victory' is, and most think that this war is about "protecting our freedom" they rely on McCain to 'win' for them and associate Obama/Clinton with 'lose'.
It's a schoolyard mentality - "I don't want to be a bully but I'm willing to do it so I don't get picked on."

Well just sent some links for shit happening so I am under moderation, I suppose because one is from the Socila**t Workers Par&y

Bush is coming to Phoenix today for a McCain fundraiser. It was supposed to be at the Convention Center but had to be moved to a "private home" because of poor ticket sales! Also they were worried that there would be more protesters than donors! We're still going to protest--watch for it to be ignored by the the corporate media.
To wsws.org--you paint a pretty accurate picture. I'm preparing for a big letdown even if Obama wins.

I wonder if the McSame protesters were Tasered once safely out of camera range...

Heh... McCain... The McCandidate for the McNation.

Think about it.

This guy is so wrapped in Wall Street PR spin it's a wonder he doesn't look like cotton candy.

They need big signs and those planes that tow signs going over big cities even when there isn't a speech.

GIVE TO THE ALZHEIMER SOCIETY AND NOT McCAIN SINCE HE NEEDS IT!
TOO OLD TO RUN AMERICA, BELONGS IN A HOME SOME PLACE.

And this is the next President of the USA????

Those young college kids who gave McSame a standing ovation need to get their arses down to nearest recruiting station and get ready to ship out to Iraq if they support the more needless war!

Judas Iscariot had the decency to commit suicide for his betrayal of Christ. McCain should do the same for his betrayal of the country.

This McCain-moron was forced on the naval academy by his father, admiral McCain, then forced on the USS Forrestal by the admiral. He started a fire onboard that killed 130 of our own sailors, then he broke his arm by not ejecting properly out of his jet after dropping some napalm on a bunch of asian children, following his caoture, he sang a song for his captors 32 times to avoid being inconvenienced. He was... and is a disaster...a complete moron...a simpleton of the greatest magnitude. The overriding awfulness of the idea of a bumbling fool like this being regarded as a serious candidate for the job once held by FDR, leaves this peasant with great apprehension and dread about the dim future of our republic. WSR. org is dead on target.

fox t:
sorry the bible was written by Jews don't believe most of it as Judus is a cover for the true murders of the son of God. If they can murder the son of God well their actions in Gaza are a cake walk.

andersdl. Victory is what we ahould have declared in Viet Nam about the time JFK was assassinated, just before we pulled out, and with honor, began rebuilding.
This war isn't about victory, its about making Saddam's prediction of what would happen if we occupied Iraq unprophetic. He wasn't properly ordained to that position by the SBC or some other regularly established licensing agency and wasn't allowed to prognosticate.
Young America is being slaughtered as a sacrifice to some ancient god as surely as the Aztecs insured an abundance of rain by plucking the still-beating heart out of appropriate hostages. In some gathering of false hierophants somewhere, a voice from the dark side is predicting the ritually renewed possibility of an abundance of oil at $500 per barrel.
But that isn't the problem. The problem is the attack on Iran being intoned as a requisite additional sacrifice to make the possibility more certain. These are evil men. They are not just stupid or greedy.

Fucking lunatic McCain is living over his failure in Nam---and you get to die for it! Somebody close the coffin on this vampire-corpse---

A country of sheep is how the rest of the world view americans.

wsws.org-

I think there is a fourth group, who agrees with almost everything you just said. (Minus that there are only three groups!)

However small it is, it exists! But it sure is funny how in an election year it seems all the comments begin to get very centrist in nature, and the general disgust at economic inequality and the democrats enabling of it gets hushed a little bit, minus the 4th group, whose comments I appreciate, and who I should contribute alongside more often. Capitalism is the real evil in all of this.

However, calling McCain a fucking lunatic is accurate as well. :)

"Our American troops will come home with victory and with honor, and they are winning."

Didn't we already win (in 2003)?

But notice how the focus is on our troops. How could we not want to endow them with victory and honor. Its not about what we are actually doing there, it is about the honor of our troops.

"Regarding the threat of nuclear proliferation, the civilized nations of the world must act as one."

So the Iranians are uncivilized. Well, if they are savages, then we may do as we like to them, just as he Europeans did in Africa, America and Australia. And if the Iranians are a "threat" then of course we have little choice but to "act as one" to go in and secure their oil reserves.

"The crowd gave him a standing ovation."

You stupid fool John, victory, what victory. Nothing has been won, or will be won.
I hope you get crucified in November.
Anyone that is voting for this chimp needs to dragged into the street and shot.

If McCain wins the election, and his rhetoric is matched, there will have to be major increases in military spending. I think America CAN manage a major increase in military spending if we just cut down on education, health, and maintenance of public infrastructure (and eating too).

It is worth remembering that military expenditure is what sunk the Soviet Union.

Does anybody know anybody who feels threatened by Persians?

The American Tax payer is footing the bill for the oil companies profits in Iraq.
Do the math there isn't enough oil to pay for the cost to take the oil from the Iraqi people. No winners but the oil companies and friends of George

Russia was smart, it woke up and said you win guys. Trouble is America was so into the cold war and military spending it couldn't stop.
RUSSIA TODAY IS DEBT FREE, IS AMERICA? SO WHO WON THE COLD WAR?

Does anybody know anybody who feels threatened by Persians?
________________________________

Peggy Noonan.

But if you mean "know personally"-- no, can't say that I do!

Find on This Page does not have: 'war criminal, unlawful, false flag, aggression, unconstitutional, or 9/11.

Interestingly, John McCain is a war criminal supporting an unconstitutional war of aggression based on a false flag allegation of being involved in 9/11. Which is also applicable to the innocence of Afghanistan, where US troops and in Iraq, are unlawfully obeying unlawful orders, which brings them into being war criminals too; was was McCain when attacking Viet Nam.

This sports like chatter about candidates and primaries, is a distraction, as your choice of words shows me. It is as disturbing as McCains 'standing ovation' and if true, those students became apologist for war criminals. The vets knew that, the other protester knew that, and now you do to.

No person can be better than their mission. There were no good Nazi troops invading anywhere or torturing and murdering people in the houses and camps. The same standards of morality and International Law apply. They are called the Nuremberg Principles, and are under the US Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land, as ratified treaty.

And that is not a matter of opinion, just violation, and it should be being addressed and articulated. Suspend this nonsense about the election and look at the criminal imperial policies that they are all a part of!

Public opinion polls prove we do not have representative government, and that is a violation of the Declaration of Independence, in that, 'governments get their just powers from the consent of the governed" and to a degree those cheering war crimes are complicit in them.

If you are offended, you needed it, if not, you should love it. I would like some responses, the article I read and have responded to, as for your post, I told you, key words are missing and but that is not a trial, just an indictment!

rumiluv
I can't see anyone but Israel who is out to control the world at all costs.

andersdl May 27th, 2008 2:15 pm

"What is the definition of victory in Iraq, John ?
Will victory be achieved when the Iraqis sign their oil over to the oil companies?"

YUP! That's always been the Republican symbol of victory and progress where Iraq is concerned. Everyone else on the planet should suffer and be killed along with our own troops so that we Americans don't have to change our absurd and obsessive consumerism lifestyle - constantly buying sh!t that we don't need.

sorry the bible was written by Jews don't believe most of it as Judus is a cover for the true murders of the son of God. If they can murder the son of God well their actions in Gaza are a cake walk.

You don't believe most of the Bible, yet you believe God had a human son? That's the most ludicrous part.

I guess Americans aren't the only sheep in the world. Or are you American?

I've said this before, and I will say it again. I'm sorry the North Vietnamese didn't finish off McKKKain when they had the chance.

"I will never surrender in Iraq," McCain said in response to the protesters. "Our American troops will come home with victory and with honor, and they are winning." Does this say it all? He is locked in the past fighting and re-fighting the war we "lost." Anyone carrying this much emotional and psychological baggage is unfit to be commander-in-chief. McCain has a pathological need to vicariously win this war. The wrong war, the wrong place, the wrong enemy. That fact is irrelevant to his need for "victory." There should be a mental health test to determine fitness for office. It's a test McCain could not pass.

JH- you said it best! your words are so right. My opinion differs I feel more compelled to fantasize cement shoeing the idiot before he starts flapping his big mouth world wide making an ass out of himself and America once again.

"I will never surrender in Iraq," McCain said in response to the protesters. "Our American troops will come home with victory and with honor, and they are winning."

Sure, McSame, as long as it takes to squeeze every last drop of oil and profit for Big Oil, Big Profits Inc. Haliburton, KBR, Blackwater and the 100s of thousands of mercenaries and profit seekers.

Oh, and don't worry about the Democrats. They did nothing to Dick Bush and they'll do nothing to you. Have a nice occupation!

" tailcap May 27th, 2008 11:29 pm

"I will never surrender in Iraq," McCain said in response to the protesters. "Our American troops will come home with victory and with honor, and they are winning."

..."

I'll quote those words from the article using tailcap's post, instead of scrolling back up-and-then-down a number of times to quote directly from the article.

Other than for, "I will never surrender in Iraq", REVERSE McCain's words to obtain the TRUTH about reality; while for this 'surrender' quote, I guess a fitting reference is provided in my above post.

As for any party achieving 'victory' from these wars, I doubt ANYONE ever will or could. The West WILL NOT, and even if the Iraq Resistance finally achieves OUTING the USA et al from Iraq, even from then onward to ... eternity, Iraq is a DESTROYED and very radiologically poisoned country, so I don't perceive anyone being able to achieve victory.

Wherein McCain speaks about what the 'civilized nations' are trying to do, he's right, only the USA et al refuse to allow those countries or nations, or peoples, to achieve OUTING the hellishly UNCIVILIZED West. The imperialist, colonialist, "sons of not God" UNCIVILIZED West war on the whole world of planet Earth, including against their own national populations.

Maybe he's just trying to be like Bush, needing to reverse their words in order to be able to see what the truth really is?!

denny,

Shoeing? I was thinking about fire "treatment", but I guess either fantasy is fitting; could even combine them.

It would've been great if annihilating lightning struck this conference building where all these warmongering "sons of not God" were cheering on Mr INSANE McCain, though only after the anti-war activists had been "escorted" out. To see such an event turned instantly into dust would be a real sight for SORE EYES and MINDS, and hearts.

what's really depressing is he got the standing ovation. which means if you say the same old military crap they been saying since forever, never surrender, victory, honor, glory. pro patria even when you are talking about a brutal massacre made entirely of lies, they will still stand up and wave their stupid flags. just whatever you do you fools, please don't vote for it.

Electile dysfunction is becoming epidemic.

Does anyone here, besides myself, find it rather odd that McLame's popularity has skyrocketed?

For buchu years Sen. Gutless Wonder was as popular as foot fungus; now "suddenly" he's the darling of the press and the idol to hordes of loony sheeple fans.

" DiabloRojo May 28th, 2008 4:28 am

Does anyone here, besides myself, find it rather odd that McLame's popularity has skyrocketed?"

Has it truly 'skyrocketed', or is it just some intensification of "news" media propaganda "favouring" him this time around? And what are the prior and present numbers for his electoral supporters? After all, if they rose from 1mn to 10mn, then we're in trouble; but if they rose from 100 to 200, then he won't stand a remote chance of being elected, in a truly fair election, that is.

Presidency was [hijacked], criminally, despotically in 2000 and much the same happened again in 2004; with the assistance of the Dem. Party candidates and both times, for extra "insurance" or "insurers", to boot.

It's been a long time since the U.S. had such an election, a truly fair, honest one, for the presidency, and many enough elections for seats in Congress and the Senate are too often very illegitimate too.

And whether people are voting for a Dem. Party or a Repub. Party candidate this coming November, it sure looks like it's going to be another unfair and irresponsible election year; AGAIN. Obama's being prep'd for serving the ruling, despotic, ... elites of the USA, and I posted a link in I believe my first post, above, for another post I made. That post explains why I say this about Obama being "prep'd".

For wsws......and anyone else capable of reading and understanding:

In my time at CommonDreams I have never read a more accurate appraisal of the political situation here in America, thank you for letting me know I am not alone!

As I read the juvenile and bile filled posts of the majority here who think political opinion consists of sophomoric character assassinations and a common dream that a centrist party and a globalist supporting candidate will somehow alter the course of American government and policies I despair for my children and grandchildren.

Sieg Heil!
The McCain audience does not want to hear of complications, ideas, negotiation, patience, forgiveness, reconsideration, reconciliation, self denial, discipline, cultural understanding, care, and especially failure. All things fail eventually, with time all is vanity. Now in the throws of international rape, its no to fair trade when invasion can be done and money to be made, exploitation to continue. They are pack animals, and all want to bask and yap victory to the tune of the messiah. No thinking involved. All emotional spells and claptrap. Sieg Heil! Much sound and fury signifying dangerous thoughtless intentions. Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil!

Too bad the Vietnamese released this swine from prison.

good luck:

Your hatred of Jews is obvious with your ignorant remarks. You must hate Jesus then since he was a Jew.

how do you "win" an occupation. since we arent really fighting a war?

It depends on whose definition of victory we are talking about. If we are referring to the corporations who run our country (and the world) then victory means staying in Iraq for as long as we can. Victory means setting up permanent bases from which we can make war on Iran and Syria. Victory means a one world economy.

http://www.ryanhartman.wordpress.com

wsws-very nice post, but who can take on those kinds of interests?

look what happened to JFK. it was said that JFK jr was going to run for the 2000 presidency, ironic that he was the publisher of a magazine called GEORGE, isnt it?