Werner Heisenberg's "National Socialist student" and "Max Planck."

My next political conversation, which I found very topical for today, comes from Physics and Beyond, Encounters and Conversations by the famous German physicist Werner Heisenberg. In chapter 12 of Revolution and Student Life we come upon two revealing colloquies, one with a National Socialist student and one with the father of German science, Max Planck. In the subtext Heisenberg sees, like the great period of change after the middle ages, the results of great technical change and upheaval taking place that is leading some nations to war.

A National Socialist student finds Professor Heisenberg who graciously grants time for and takes questions from this student who soon "pours his heart out." "Why are you so offish towards the movement?" This sets off a great extensive give and take on assessment of political objectives that ends with Heisenberg countering the students "New Germany" and "more foes, more hero's" position with: "I am firmly convinced that we must never judge political movements by their aims. Now when it comes to means, you National Socialists are no different from the Communists; the leaders of both movements have clearly lost faith in the persuasive force of their own ideas. Hence both leave me quite unmoved except for the fact that I am sadly convinced that both will bring down misfortune on Germany." During the weeks following this conversation university life only became more intolerable because of greater political interference by the Nazi authorities. Jewish faculty and colleagues were being dismissed so Heisenberg sought out an interview with Max Planck.

Right off Max says, "You have come to get my political advice on a political questions but I am afraid I can no longer advise you. I see no hope of stopping the catastrophe that is about to engulf all out universities, indeed our whole country…..I would like to appraise you of my conversation with Hitler a few days ago. I had hoped to convince him that he was doing enormous damage to the German university, and particularly to physical research, by expelling our Jewish colleagues; to show him how senseless and utterly immoral it was to victimize men who have always thought of themselves a Germans, and who offered up their lives for Germany like everyone else. But I failed to make myself understood-or, worse, there is simply no language in which one can talk to such men. He has lost all contact with reality. What others say to him is at best an annoying interruption, which he immediately drowns by incessant repetitions of the some old phrases about the decay of healthy intellectual life during the past fourteen years, about the need to stop the rot even at this late hour, and so on. All the time, one has the fatal impression that he believes all the nonsense that he pours forth, and he indulges his own delusions by ignoring all outside influences. He is so possessed by his so-called ideas that he is no longer open to argument. A man like that can only lead Germany into disaster."

To stay or flee prewar Germany is considered along with the different outcomes and then the fellow professor bids his leave. Heisenberg on the way home decides to stay in Germany for the sake of German science and "think of the time after the catastrophe," the only advice that Max Planck could offer him. Two years later the first shot would open World War II. I cannot help but see a reflection of where we are today in this political conversation and how the philosophy of neither Jefferson nor Dr. King, as we shall see, would have never been welcome in Nazi Germany as Professor Heisenberg eventually found out. Indeed, we find two chapters later in Behavior in the Face of Political Disaster the courageous German scientist uttering, "We shall simply have to wait. Until such time as we can do anything at all. Meanwhile we must try to keep order in the small corners to which our own lives are confined." After all who would listen? Certainly NOT Israel. They have come full circle and now exhibit the same Nazi behavior that at one time was directed at them not to long ago.

Pretty sad.

You still failed to tell me what war crime I crime have commited.

presence_aka_Namaste May 28th, 2008 2:52 am "I think I need to take a shower now, as conversing with war criminals makes me feel dirty."

presence_aka_Namaste,
actual "Palestinians" living in the "British Mandate"
is not equal to:
"Palestinian state as it was in 1945"

I see that Finkelstein is not the only one who is stretching the truth.

Jewbacca must be on vacation

presence_aka_Namaste "I would like for you to give us"chapter and verse" on the CSPAN lecture, which perforates the ZIONIST crapola"

Sorry, these are high words. I don't fully understand what you want.

All I said, and I stand behind my words, is that the Finkelstein's articles I've read (I), and books that I tried to read, I couldn't find a single paragraph that didn't had some lie or stretching of the truth.

Example of an article filled with dozen of lies:
http://www.democracynow.org/features/finkelstein_shlomo_debate

I've also tried to read "Beyond Chutzpah", But after a few pages I stopped, since it had numerous inaccuracies.

---
presence_aka_Namaste "why exactly would they be blowing them selves up if it were still today Palestinian state as it was in 1945"

In 1945 there was no Palestinian state. In 1945 the land in question was a British Mandate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

In fact, in modern history - a Palestinian state never existed.

---

presence_aka_Namaste "Israel never had existed other than as a dream of absurdity of zionists."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel
Some dream.
---

So far you failed to show for even a single place where I wasn't accurate. Yet in the above one post of yours, I found more than two things which are the opposite of truth.

presence_aka_Namaste "we all know that you and truth have no ( to very little ) relation at all. "

Instead of calling me name, why don't you show a single comment that I've posted which is not true?

---

And By the way, I never said that "Palestinians recently coming into Palestine, just to steal from bountiful Israeli" The fact that you are attributing such statement to me turns you into a creator of "creed of the illusion"
and into a person who "truth have no ( to very little ) relation at all".

In fact, in the past I even said that some of the Palestinians are descended to Jews who were converted to Islam in the 6th and seventh century.

presence_aka_Namaste "suicide bombing is vicious and inhumane, and savage - but no more so than the illegal Israeli war crimes that cause it."

Suicide bombing wasn't "caused" by Israel, but by fanatic clerics who brainwashed ignorant people with the promise of 72 virgins in heaven for killing infidels.

Killing of innocent civilian is criticized and condemn my human right organization such as amnesty international and btselem as a war crime and a crime against humanity.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Israeli_Civilians/

"Attacks aimed at civilians undermine all rules of morality and law. Specifically, the intentional killing of civilians is considered a "grave breach" of international humanitarian law and a war crime. Whatever the circumstances, such acts are unjustifiable. "

To balance the above article that criticize Israel for not allowing one Jew into the country, I bring the article below.

A group of Jews were denied entry to Egypt because of rumors that they might try to proclaim a property stolen from them when they were ethnically cleansed from Egypt years ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7421961.stm
"all the department stores that were established by Egyptian Jews at the turn of the past century were now the property of the people of Egypt."

nahida, you have a lot of hate songs and venom against Israel.

Why don't you tell the readers that you (as per past postings) support suicide bombing against innocent women and children? And that you call random killing of Jews as a " legitimate right of resistance"?

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/21/9133/
nahida May 23rd, 2008 7:30 am

" ...the legitimate right of resistance (Suicide Bombing) of those who have been wronged, oppressed and demonized."

I was trying to read some of Finkelstein's articles and one of his book's. As unbelievable as it may sound, I couldn't find a single paragraph that didn't had some lie or stretching of the truth in it.

Not that he has no right to speak his mind, even though - I find it shameful that some people still define him as "Academic".

The statement "So much for a Godly nation." was suppose to go at the end of the comment about the MDs. Sorry. Mea culpa.

Well, ItzaNaziWorldOrder...I agree and so does my Oh, so British husband, a former Regimental Sargent Major. WE think the ruling class is from many countries, primarily called the Bilderbuergers and the Illuminati.

We think the world is rapidly dividing into two groups, the economic elite and everyone else who work to support the economic elite. Food scarcity, medical scarcity, famine, war...all work to help eliminate the unnecessary from the total population. Finally there will be the appropriate number of people supporting the economic elite...and I know I am not in that group.

If you doubt this, look not only at our support of pitiful Israel, our use of our educationally disadvantaged (aka "poor") who we send to war, the Amero proposal, the hegemony of the American military, etc., but the triage proposed by the group of powerful MDs who will not treat the very young, young with defects, people with chronic diseases and those who are old, especially those with chronic diseases and defects if we have a pandemic.

We will not recognize our country or culture in 10 years, I bet. Besides, by 20 years from now our USA will be primarily black and hispanic...so there is a major change we can anticipate. So much for a Godly nation.

We can also anticipate riots and war over water rights...and don't get me started on the Paraguay hideout of Bushes, et al sitting over a huge aquifer...why do we have a military protective presence down there, anyway?

Cheers to all of you. I wonder if someone wished us an "interesting life"? ["Ha, ha, ha...,"says she laughing hysterically all the way to temple...a Buddhist one, I have to say!

Israel is sooner or later going to suffer some kind of horrible retribution for its thuggish treatment of Palestinians, and its slavish supporters in the U.S. must share in the blame. Thousands of American Jews see this coming, but neither the ruling elites of Israel nor their American counterparts seem to have the wisdom (and plain old common sense) to see it coming. Poor Israel! Poor long-suffering Jews!

Why is it that in criticizing Israel we are supporting repressive Islamic states.

In the simple move of blaming critics of Israel for being 'Islamo-fascists' you are saying ok maybe it's bad here, but look how much worse it is over there. This is no excuse for a government that claims to uphold democracy and equality before the law.

I would support any Islamic or Arab movement that really perpetuated justice, equality and freedom in much the same way that I would support any such movement in the West. Imperialism, however, has never furthered these causes. They must spring from a real movement and an indigenous spirit.

I cannot support a version of freedom, justice and equality born of hegemony or military force. Thus I cannot support US and Israeli policies that aim to be 'humanitarian' through hegemony and force.

itsaNazi, I meant God. I'm not sure Israel answers to U.S. authority as much as their goals are in line with ours.

When a state believes it's mission is ordained by God, that state risks running roughshod over human rights. A state so fundamentally based in religion doesn't feel accountable for gross violations of human and civil rights. This is what I feel to be Israel's arrogance and frighteningly racist imperialism.

It's time people in the U.S. begin to owe up to our own racism whether implicit or explicit, whether fueled by imperialism, religion or both. Maybe then we could take a fair and objective look at our friends.

"Israel is an arrogant state. It thinks it answers to a higher authority. Some day we must say there is no higher authority than international law."

Yes, Israel does think it answers to a 'higher authority' and that authority is the US and its Euro partners!

DenverCurmudgeon,

Your comment is very astute!

Throughout history the Jewish people have had an uncanny ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. However, modern weapons technology has made the consequences of such a defeat catastrophic.

It is not only possible, but in my mind, highly probable that we will awake some morning to the news that millions are dead in Iran and that in retaliation, Israel has been obliterated with millions more dead. McCain, Lieberman, and Hagee will be on their knees thanking God for fulfilling their wishes and asking him/her to please send Jesus back to kill the rest of the Jews.

Absolutely outrageous and fascistic!

Israel is an arrogant state. It thinks it answers to a higher authority. Some day we must say there is no higher authority than international law.

Israel must not be held beyond reproach and liberal politicians like Barack Obama who supposedly uphold the rule of international law must look at cases like this before touting Israel as a democratic state.

Arvy May 26th, 2008 9:55 am stated:
"Try questioning some aspects of the "official" version of history in some other supposedly democratic nations (both European and North American) and you'll also face legal sanctions."

Arvy, can you help me understand what specifically these "some aspects of official history" that, upon "questioning" will bring legal sanctions here?

I'm interested in testing your theory. Please illuminate me further about how and where these hot buttons can be found.

There would be no rebellion like a united rebellion. Witness what happened in the Netherlands when Germany invaded, and everyone including the royalty put yellow stars on their sleeves. Let's take the hit together and get this over with.

thanks.

The only people who can change what is happening in Israel, and in the occupied lands, are peace loving American Jews. It is heart warming to see here that there are those out there and they are finding the courage to speak out and voice opposition. Now if this will gain momentum, we can get back to being friends and making sure this twisted right wing agenda is cut off with the same agenda from the Bush cabal.

How is it that Islamo-fascism is so fashionable amongst progressives?
__________________________________

Because it makes a nice change from Christo-fascism?

How is it that Islamo-fascism is so fashionable amongst progressives? Apollonius

Do people like you have any remote idea what the word Islamo-fascism means?????? Other than it's the latest buzz word of the fascist's who have taken over this country! I suspect not! You whip it out of your bag of insults to criticize those who are expressing an opinion. Because it's a term the Bush Administration invented to serve as propaganda tool to insult all of those who don't agree with their fascist policies. And 'not so bright' people like yourself use it liberally! Because if you were remotely bright you wouldn't even be using the word. Because it ties you to the kind of people who are less than patriotic!

Curlybird:"At least they can't trot out that tired old line that Norman Finkelstein is anti-semetic." No, they
just call you a "self hating jew". BTW, here is a related article about Mr. Finkelstein by the eminent
Prof. Chomsky, another man of integrity and critic of
Israeli government policy (which no doubt many of you
CDers know but will post anyway):

http://www.chomsky.info/books/power01.htm

How is it that Islamo-fascism is so fashionable amongst progressives?

Every single Muslim dominated country is authoritarian and repressive in the extreme. People unfriendly to their regimes aren't deported; they are executed.

iamyself; YES-EXACTLY. If you are ordered to shove 100 naked people into a "shower" and gas them. SHOOT YOUR OFFICER. AND HIS OFFICER. ARM THE PRISONERS.

mikepeters,

Why do you suppose, in the history of militaries, that this has happened very, very rarely? I would like to think that I would do this, but human psychology would dictate that I probably wouldn't, and neither would you.

I would rather head this situation off at the pass. Instead of visions of shooting officers, I have a vision of withdrawing my support from the machine that drives all this. Not completely, because that is now impossible, but where I can, when I can. I am instead, connecting with others involved in building a new, sustainable world, with human-scale living. I am disconnecting, wherever I can, from the Military-Industrial Complex. I can't shoot the MIA, but I can withdraw my support from it. This is the only freedom any of us really have.

But let's not judge the whole nation and its people by the bad apples presently holding onto a thin parliamentary majority: A record number of Israeli military officers have quit the service in protest of Olmert's aggression and there is a fast growing peace movement in the country of Israelis disgusted by what is being done in their name.

RSJ,

I would hope that no one here blames all Israelis. That would be a rather myopic (not to mention, puerile) view of the world.

Even with all the suppression of views by the neocons in Israel, word still gets out that there are many Israelis who do not support their government's apartheid system against the Palestinians, just as there are many Americans who don't support our country's colonialist ways.

The black vs. white, "with us or against us" mentality that pervades the world must end, and I think it is ending. I think we are now in the death throes of colonialism, and like all death throes, it can be violent. There are things afoot that will change our world and we have to transcend this barbaric chapter in our culture's history. Well, this is my hope because if we don't, we will see barbarism the likes of which we thought we'd never see again.

Just to add this: Not surprisingly, the right-wing nutcase currently leading Israel takes bribes, just like his American cousins in the Bush Administration:

"An American businessman who police suspect gave illegal funds to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert appeared in court Tuesday to testify about his part in the case."
-- From "U.S. millionaire testifies in Olmert bribery case," MSNBC, May 27, 2008.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24835392

What is it with these neocons, American and Israeli? War and corruption seem to be all they understand.

But let's not judge the whole nation and its people by the bad apples presently holding onto a thin parliamentary majority: A record number of Israeli military officers have quit the service in protest of Olmert's aggression and there is a fast growing peace movement in the country of Israelis disgusted by what is being done in their name.

Olmert and his goon squad may soon be thrown out of power, facing the same likely fate as the GOP over here. It's entirely possible sanity will return to both countries.

nahida - thanks for your Outrage - it must be heard by all - it is Truth.

Thank you for your comments Mike.

Personally, I am not yet convinced (as I had been in my youth) that the US is guiding this ship of war.

Many observations leave open the question: Who really rules?

I am certain that democracy in the US is a complete farce, and was when it was first erected as a principle deception. The people here have no say in anything, even the smallest things.

The question though remains, has the US elite superseded the European elite over these decades (or some factions within it such as the Rockefellers, the Bushes, etc.), or are the elite of the US still bound to the traditional powers of Europe and basically doing their bidding and getting rewarded?

My own life proves that separation of interests (even philosophical) does not really exist at the highest levels.

One thing is for sure, there is an incredible amount of secrecy, corruption and deception in regard to it all which suggests a traditional old world criminal model, such as the Mafia (not our US version of the Mafia but an organization that shares many of the same operational principles)…

So, I assume an international cartel of elite criminals… probably still centered in Europe. That the 'muscle' (largest military) is principally the US does not really prove that the US is in command.

In reply to this...

" If you are ordered to shove 100 naked people into a "shower" and gas them. SHOOT YOUR OFFICER. AND HIS OFFICER. ARM THE PRISONERS. "

...because it was this obvious fact (and a few others) (and why it was never done) that sent me on a mission to understand... how is it that we do not do the obvious right thing when it is so clearly what should be done?

And, my discovery was that we are reared inside ia false and unnatural culture which is based upon fundamental deceptions regarding human nature (and the rest of nature)... and what is left to chance by said culture is augmented by various threats against us personally...

I think the following comments made on another article also have merit here.

Written by josephmorton (a former soldier)
on Common Dreams in comment to:

Heal the Warrior, Heal the Country
by Edward Tick

May 24th, 2008 7:08 pm

first comment...

The American soldier should not be honored in any way but condemned. They are nothing but psychopaths. There should never be one word of praise for these brutal losers. Do not buy this nonsense of defending america. Tell everyone who says they are defending 'america to come on home because you do not want such nonsense used to justify imperial wars.

second comment...

You silly fools who replied to me.

I did serve in the military and I am fully aware of the low level of intelligence and ability of those who believe what they are told . I learned very quickly that wars were carried out only for conquest and for surpressing other populations. You clowns are what Williams Carlos Williams wrote about in Imperialism as a way of life.

You do not have any basis for assessing the world except your own petty minds. You need to stop the nonsense of believing the military is anything but puppets of an imperial America.

Anyone who is in the military now is a psychopath or a loser, and those of you who are in favor of the war should join today. What is keeping you? You are fools and cowards who want to sit home and let the psychopaths kill Iraquis that you seem to care nothing about because you support those who are in Iraq killing women and children.

The only people we need to honor are those innocents Iraqis who are killed. I leave you with two unanswerabel points that you would consider if you were intelligent enough to do so.

1. Where are the Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gates, Cristol, O'riley, 'Gingrich children? In nightclubs or like the Bush mindless daughter, out selling books.

2. A number of people complain about the lack of equiptment, medical care and other failings of the government but soldiers know these failings before they signed on, and should stop complaining. Iraqis only get killed by psyhchopatic Americans and do not have medical care or pensions of 500,000 for each dead person. We must condemn Americans and praise the Iraqis who are suffering because of the imperialist need to kill people.

THERE IS NO HONOR FOR THOSE WHO CARRY OUT THESE BARBAROUS ACTS OF AMERICAN MILITARY AND THE PUPPETS HERE WHO WANT TO HONOR THESE ACTS.

"...defending mass-murder, chilD-torture and ethnic cleansing."

IT'S THE PROGRAM, DUMMY!

The same can be said of US operations in Iraq, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

And the program is being defined for us all by the SAME INTERESTS... is this so hard to understand? Same program, same writer?

I do not defend any form of genocide. I seek to put a stop to it once and for all.

And it can end if everyone tries just a little bit to understand the genesis of the dynamics in which they find themselves participating... and then quits those realities/dynamics.

"And to the notion that NaziIsrael is some little tiny cog in the big mean war machine-"

Please consider the SIZE of the US military industrial complex. I grew up in a family wedded to this complex. It is literally the most defining thing happening in this country and in the world... the rest is crumbs... this is what our very existence supports and feeds, nothing else.

As one former associate said, "Join the world, see the military."

"but defending Israel is defending mass-murder, chilD-torture and ethnic cleansing."

I do NOT believe I defended Israel. I was attempting to provide historical, political and cultural context.

Also I do not (like so many) use the state of Israel to disguise the role of its European creators (and military collaborators) in the executions of its mission.

Nahida - At this point you can have peace OR justice, not both. You personally are clearly are not ready for peace so you will just have to go on killing and being killed for a while till your people and the zionists are ready for peace. You aren't going to win anything through violence.

Take care.

"The problems of the Palestinians will not be solved by the Jews."

Because… Israel is NOT a sovereign country.

Like other countries administered by a collective of elite concerns, none of which give a damn about the Palestinians or any other people who are without power and prestige, Israel dare not chart a path independent of the interests of this elite.

How many know the history of the Russian Czar, cut down after acquiescing to a few demands of the Russian peasantry?

What followed some decades later was a program launched by other European powers to further coop the aspirations of the Russian peasants and the 'Communist' 'menace' was birthed.

"Then I wonder how any government can expect such largesse if they themselves don't run the US government?"

Most US aid does not serve the interests of the recipient country. If you look at the history of military and economic aid that the US has given to countries around the world, you will see a distinct pattern;

Aid always is given to protect AMERICAN interests usually by propping up dictators and police states that are administered by US and Euro secret services and generally is either in the form of weapons, police-state advisors or other aid intended to cripple local sustainability and deepen dependency.

Many governments would fall if US and/or Euro aid were stopped. And, that would NOT be a bad thing. It would enable the majority to wrest control from the comprador class that administers misery for so many.

We gave a lot of aid to Iran too while the Shah was puppet. What that aid did was build a Savak (trained by the CIA), defeat indigenous communities, displace whole towns, etc. Almost the same program that is going on in Palestine except in Iran, Iranian elite did it to everyone else.

But as iammyself explains, we are really one. And what is done by any, is done by all, and what is done to any, is done to us all. There are no differences. We just stopped feeling this truth somewhere along the road to becoming 'cultured'.

.
There is no dream of a peaceful and secure Jewish Homeland in Palestine...........

There is a Insane Nightmare of a Zionist Empire in the Middle East............A tightly held Fascict State, that cannot ever tolerate Freedom of Thought, or Academic Diversity.

The State of Israel is one nuclearly armed Police State !!!!!!!!!!

.

"I just wonder why the US is subsidizing the Jewish state to the tune of $9,000,000,000 plus plus plus/year"

While I am not in favor of the war machine that these 'handouts' and 'subsidies' help support, I have to bring up the fact that there was a publicly announced loss of 2.3 trillion dollars by our 'defense' department.

Maybe if we can find that money, we can uncover a little bit more about the corporate interests that determine who gets aid and what kind... nothing is free, and war is good for weapons manufacturer's profits.

Furthermore, since we do not control the agencies that divvy things up nor how they use what is divvied, I really doubt that any of the programs funded would serve 'we the people' any better than previous outrages of government 'kindness'.

What I see is a government that is bloated and has taken away every right of individual and community self expression.

Let's look at libraries. There are armed cops now in many, but if you want to post a flier, let's say on human anatomy (such as one I wrote) it must be approved... and approval is not to be taken for granted ... and if obtained, can be retracted at any point.

Money is NOT the problem. Who controls it and for what programs it is used to support is.
______________

Everything we do in this country is tied to corporate control.

Not long ago, I was asked about childhood obesity amongst the urban poor and what types of studies I thought might be useful since many children could not obtain fresh produce, nothing but convenience markets where they lived and no fare to get to markets outside their neighborhoods.

My answer was…

No studies needed, just place some carts (stands, kiosks) in the places where fresh produce is needed and hand it out. It will be much cheaper and accomplish the goal without further ado while supporting local organic farmers.

Is it happening? Do you really think this is Israel's fault?

If you do, I hope you understand the actual manner in which these realities are linked and that Israel is a very small part of the total and world wide corporate military program. It is critical facet of course, but, it is certainly not deterministic in the way many are attempting to spin matters.

Here's a thought:
Ask Obama show some sack. Demand that he condemn Israel for this outrageous act. I guarantee you he will not stand up for principle, show some leadership and rebuke this pathetic. You see, he wants to be president.

That's like saying the problems at Dachau could not have been solved by the Nazi's.

Or that the torture 'problem' at Gitmo won't be 'solved' by the US armed forces.

mikepeters,

You mean the soldiers who operated Dachau and those who operate Gitmo should just stop? Just up and disobey their commands and just stop? Knowing full well that they'll suffer the consequences...and just stop?

How far up the chain of command should the orders be given to just stop? How far up the chain of command in any military organization is far enough? Is the military chain of command even far enough? Who really runs the show?

You may want to look at your own logic for the flaws.

So much for the anti-Semitic myth that all Jews are rabid supporters of the Israeli far right.

I just wonder why the US is subsidizing the Jewish state to the tune of $9,000,000,000 plus plus plus/year and supporting their nuclear program (150 nuclear weapons) if Isreal is an independent democratic state? Doesn't anyone work over there?

Then I wonder how any government can expect such largesse if they themselves don't run the US government?

I think the US should stop funding Isreal. Not one more red cent for that dishonest, lying government.

If Isreal is so wonderful and so capable and so self sufficient, let's keep the money home and feed our poor kids and provide health care for the poor and elderly, let's get our schools back on track and let's repair our roads and bridges...just for starters. $9 billion goes a long way, a very long way.

The actions of Israel will eventually bring our whole world down. 6.5 billion people will be sacrificed to suit the deranged fantasies of 6.5 million fanatics. Sound reasonable?

I've just posted an item on my blog about digging a very deep bomb shelter. Be warned - it's only for realists.

I hadn't heard that about Illan Pappe's situation before. Read his book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine if it is still available.

The problem is not Israel, but it's leaders. The problem is the psychopathic neo-malthusian elite who control Israel the US and Britains leaders, as well as much of Europe, and every major institution at the top levels, including organized religions.

Jews, Christians, Muslim, Black, White, Hispanics, Asians, etc, of all nations, are all victims, and should unite against this evil, and not be diverted by their divide and conquer tactics. Israels actions, and Americas actions are not consistent with principles held by their people.
The people do not support war crimes, yet both countries are guilty of war crimes.

Mike Corbeil. I live in the town where Annett started living this fantasie. He is a KOOK & it sounds like you are well down the same road.

Well, I believe Ilan Pappe is among the Jews who, like some bright non-Jews, argue against the two-state solution, saying that it's NOT what is really needed; saying that what would be far better would be for a one-state solution in which both Israeli Jews, Muslims, Christians, …, and all Palestinians would live in peace, mutual accord, and so on.

That's what Canada and the USA are [supposed] to be, instead of establishing border divisions based on religion, and so on.

Mike,

Well, if I were the democratically elected emperor of the world (huh?), I'd do away with nation-states. Far too much blood has been spilled in defense of these absurd creations. Nope, we would live in symbiotic bioregions, with our needs met within our communities within our bioregions. No more keeping people in or out.

As far as a one-state solution - from far above our Earth, that's the only thing that's real. You know, maybe we all need a little ride into space to make this sink in...

Mike Corbeil wrote a very important post above relating to the continuing and aggressive genocide against the Canadian First Nations Peoples. Kahentinetha Horn has written and emailed us for many years now keeping us up to date regarding the struggles of the First Nations Peoples. I did write to Common Dreams Editor in the hope of carrying her articles and updates. They unfortunately chose not to do so. Kahentinetha speaks in unvarnished language about the active genocide. It would be wonderfully instructive for CD readers to understand the nature of this genocide and to see the non-violent strength shown by the Six Nations Peoples in combating it.
I would encourage them once again to give voice here to Kahentinetha on CD. It's the same old story of exploitation by guns. Uranium mines, tar sands oil, forest wood products, real estate and all the rest including the brutal treatment of the rightful owners of the land the Six Nations Peoples. And wouldn't you know it, America is right there assisting the Canadian Government.

A slap on the face might be necessary to wake some self-deluded cocooned people from their hypnotic trans and hysterical state of mind"

I see no cruelty in a sharp slap that is meant to awaken. The only issue is to get the intended result.

And that is why I asked nahida what she meant by "justice."

If the goal is peace and restoration of land so that ALL in the region can live freely, I'm all for it. If the goal is retribution, then I'm against it with my heart and soul.

For your information - Jews are not my people. Everyone, is my people, including you and your family and your people and the Israelis. What happens to you, and to the Iraelis happens to me. That's the truth! Everything affects everyone. That is the truth!

You could say that "my people" came to this country, America, and massacred people and created an apartheid system, and you would be right. So, what do you want me to do about that? Suppose the Lakota people say they want their land back. What should I do? And what if the ancestors of the people who were here before the Lakota tell them that they want their land back? What should they do?

Do you see the insanity? This is insanity! A culturally devised insanity! itsaNaziWorldOrder is right - people are people and our plights are the same. There is a flawed, bad culture at work here and most of us are caught up in it. We can only break this cycle of violent insanity when we see that we're all the same people, caught in a failed culture. Our culture, yours, mine, and the Israelis, is flawed and it is working against the natural order of things. Believe it or not, you and the majority of Israelis and the majority of Americans have much more in common than we realize. The Nazi culture (to borrow some of itsaNaziWorldOrder's handle - good one, BTW) is what we should all be allied to fight, not each other.

nahida, I'm with you as far as human rights and humane justice and living free and tearing down the walls and tearing down the settlements and withdrawing to a long-ago treaty goes - but if you want the Israelis to pick up and leave, that's not going to happen - it will just keep the flames of violence going, and I do not support that.

Seaweed,

Religions exist for the purposes of state (actually to help disguise those purposes). That was made clear in past centuries where, who filled the office of pope was chosen by the dominant empire of Europe.

Today we have TV and many other distractions to help control the masses... but once upon a time, the church was the main seat of the contrived realities used to deceive and help control the people.

But, 'God' did not invent religion (the temple did) so why do you lump him/her/it/them (in my view, natural consciousness and its laws) with it?

Countries are not countries, they are privilege hierarchies established for control with specific positions in the greater hierarchy of privilege and elite rule... maintained by violence and deception.

Who runs the CIA, the NSA? NASA? What is the role of MI6, the drug trades, human trafficking? Who runs Interpol? What is its history? Who was behind the revision of Japan prior to its invasion of China? Who was there to witness the ensuing atrocities and use them to foment war with Japan and the demonizing of the Japanese?

Social and political engineering is not new. And deception scripts to create an artificial culture to protect elite interests and machinations from public view is also not new.

"Truth is the enemy of the state."

If the only enemies which might exist on this earth could be counted but on my right hand - God, Jehovah, Allah, Krishna, Great Creator; please give me the strength that I might cut off my right hand.

"a STATE, a political system, a racist government, an apartheid, a colonial project, a NWO creation, a obnoxious entity, an aggressive regime..."

These things are true about Israel.

(But, they are NOT a reflection upon me or the things I support, I am a Jew (not religiously but by birth) and I have no problem calling anyone on racist support of elitist and genocidal programs; Jews, Arabs, Whites, Blacks, etc.).

Why would anyone deny these things about Israel? It won't help the Jews (even Israeli Jews) to pretend otherwise nor anyone else.

Isn't it time to recognize that most Jews who finally settled in Israel were driven there not by preference to go there but by Nazi inducements to leave their homes elsewhere?

Those who induced them are one and the same as those whose genocidal programs many Israelis and Jews today serve.

If you really want the right answer, argue also for a return to the Jews of that which was stolen from them. If everyone tells the truth, very few will lose, most will gain.

If 1% of the world owns over fifty percent of all the resources, do you think those from whom it was taken will be sad to have it returned? (Go ask the landless peasants living in the ghettos before you answer.)

Sometimes I think that Israel perfectly expresses the bully syndrome. Most fear those who are able to torment them with impunity… and some try to assuage their rage (and recover a sense of personal power) by taking it out on those who are even less protected than themselves…

The truth could unite everyone.

p.p.s My opnion is that the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians will NOT be resolved that the rage and irrational hatred is too deep, and that we oughtt pull the plug on the whole area and spend U.S. tax dollars in America rebuilding our infrastructure to be sustainable and taking care of ALL people in our communities regardless of race sex, sexual orientation, income, etc. That would be shining example to the world and perhaps the people in the middle east might come to see that their irrational religious conflict is pointless, useless and destructive. Wake up there is no Yaweh, there is no Allah, and there is no God, stop being irrational and fighting over ghosts of the mind and start taking care of people and the land in your local communities pretty simple.

"And some times one has to be cruel to be kind

A slap on the face might be necessary to wake some self-deluded cocooned people from their hypnotic trans and hysterical state of mind"

I see no cruelty in a sharp slap that is meant to awaken. The only issue is to get the intended result.

"And now they are pushing for another criminal disastrous war with Iran, which could prove to be catastrophic for our beloved planet and the amazing life forms on it

Therefore, I am fighting vigorously with my pen (sorry keyboard) like mad, because I hope to see an end to this insanity,..."

I share your concerns and motivations.

"I am aware of that, and share your understanding

but the snake's head is well hidden

we can only see its tail.."

But, the tail (tale and its designated purposes) is connected to the head, and it is time to reveal the head that is wagging these destructive tales...

Enough is enough! Off with the head!

P.S. nahida if I were to say black Muslim nationalists were

"...a STATE, a political system, a racist government, an apartheid, a colonial project, a NWO creation, a obnoxious entity, an aggressive regime …. Bla bla bla" and a cancer to be eliminated.

And then weakly responded but African Americans are people I hope you'd call me on my sophistry and racist bullshit. Well guess what I am doing the same on you.

nahida Zionists are people too, we may vehemently disagree with their viewpoint (I do in many ways) but to call them a "cancer" is to strip them of their humanity and to engage in fascist thought patterns whether you chose to acknowledge that or not. It's no better to call Zionists a "cancer" than Israel's own racist policies of having Jewish only roads which is ALSO fascist.

If we can't see two wrongs don't make a right and figure out how to criticize Israel's terrible policies without calling large groups a "cancer" then we are in serious trouble and will be easy prey for actual Nazis if the shit hits the fan. Again it scares me terribly that people can't seem to see the difference between the rational critiques of a Robert Fisk, Amy Goodman or Noam Chomsky, and the demonization Nahida engaged in.

This BTW is why I think rationality is incredibly important and undervalued, I'm quite certain anti-Semitic Russian Orthadoz Christians considered thmselves "spiritual" as they made false blood libels against Jewish people. Is the veneer of rationality we struggled to obtain for hundreds of years really so thin that it will be blown away unmourned by the proliferation irrationalist nonsense on the internet? If so that makes me want to cry for how weak humanities grasp on reality is.

Without sharing there can be no justice
Without justice there can be no peace
Without peace there can be no future.

Maitreya

The reason Prof Finklestein is bounded, harassed, and discriminated against is his, '"Speaking Truth To Power!"'

His lectures and books is the reason for the conspiracies to violation his Civil Rights and to teach.

So, I propose to let him speak, teach, have our attention, and see and share it. The video of many, that I picked, may not be the best, but this is so good, it must be heard by all of us. He speaks for an hour, then takes questions for 45 minutes. He was on C-SPANS Booknotes, and this to his lasting glory, was deported as persona non grata in Zionist Israel.

Norman Finkelstein talks about his book, The Holocaust Industry, and on the on the Israel Palestine Conflict on Cspan
- 103 min

I have learned greatly from this man, not only in substance, but in grace of delivery, his heart and soul, is not in conflict with his mind, he is the whole man, with the whole picture, who did fantastic research, homework, thinking, writing, teaching, and is a role model for a coming generation of what a principled man is really like.

What a rotten article - so bent in favor of Izrael. It say's that Lebanon waged war on Izrael in 2006. That's a lie! Izrael invaded Lebanon (again) and destroyed innocent lives.

nahida,

Please see that your plight is no different than the plight of so many others around the world. And the dynamics that cause you to suffer are the same as the ones that are causing and have caused all others to suffer.

The problems of the Palestinians will not be solved by Jews. Because the Jews who are committing crimes are simply programmed in the same corporate/military order that has produced similar criminals (and psychopathic organizations) and unleashed them all over the world... the methodologies are well-honed and standardized. But Jews do not control them nor even understand them.

See this and you can tear down every barrier to peace.

The answers for Palestine are the same as for American Blacks falsely incarcerated, for India's farmers being driven off their lands, for Iraq's poor, and so, so many others.

Genocide IS what elite rule is about. That some are set-up to perpetrate the genocide and others are selected to be the target is repeated, again and again, all over the globe...

This system of genocide rests upon a few very critical fallacies... that there is a 'right' of some to privilege. This right is usually defined in terms of heredity, eugenics as it has been called.

But, the right to rule can be temporarily 'assigned' (extended) to those who 'serve' the interests of the elite. In the case of Palestine, that temporary assignment of elite right is being extended to certain Jews who commit genocide in the interests of the war-makers.

When the usefulness of these Jews has been exhausted, they will again face genocide themselves… and the ones encouraged to genocide them will of course be Arabs (and then Palestinians and other Arabs will be funded and given whatever weapons are necessary… and on and on it goes… )

Here's a call for U.S. disengagement from Israel - to save both of us!
Especially the U.S.

It`s Time for a Declaration of Independence From Israel
http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=2137

Filed under Israeli politics, Christian Zionism, Opinion Editorials, Anti-Israel academics, Iran's nukes, USA foreign policy, Iraq war, Christian Fundamentalism, Iran, Zionism - on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - By: Hedges, Chris

Speech delivered on Thursday, May 22, 2008, at Princeton University by Chris Hedges

This speech was first written as an article in 2007 in truthdig.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070702_a_declaration_of_independence_from_israel/

It's Time for a Declaration of Independence From Israel

Israel, without the United States, would probably not exist. The country came perilously close to extinction during the October 1973 war when Egypt, trained and backed by the Soviet Union, crossed the Suez and the Syrians poured in over the Golan Heights. Huge American military transport planes came to the rescue. They began landing every half-hour to refit the battered Israeli army, which had lost most of its heavy armor. By the time the war was over, the United States had given Israel $2.2 billion in emergency military aid........

p.s. I find it interesting that my links to Lakota elders objecting to new age hucksterism were censored over in the "Earth community" thread while Nahida engages in eliminationist rhetoric against Israel such as:

"This evil entity, this malignant cancer, if not surgically "treated", is going to die and exterminate the whole world with it"

uncensored.

That's some Nazi bullshit and ya'll know it. Now I have serious problems myself with the Likud faction of Israel's government and I think it's very legitimate to criticize those anti Palestinian polices and agitate for a proper contiguous Palestinian state, like Rachel Corrie did.

That is however very different than calling Jews err excuse me Zionists (code word) a "malignant cancer" if we can't see the difference between legitimate humanistic oriented left criticism of the state of Israel's policies as offered by Noam Chomsky and Amy Goodman, and crude neo-Nazi eliminationist rhetoric then we are in deep trouble on the left IMO.

If I were to say black nationalist Muslims in the U.S. were a "cancer" to be eliminated I would sincerely hope I'd be called on it ASAP that that was racist and unacceptable view point to hold. And if I said but I only mention Nation of Islam (analagous to Zionists) I hope again I'd be called out and be told that was some code word bullshit. Now again to be clear I think what happened to Finkelstein was atrocious and I think we ought to protest those policies and Israel's attacks on Lebanon, etc. That is different than calling a huge group of people a "caner" can y'all really not see that?

BTW It seems I have been labeled a "hater" or some such for defending Lakota elders right to protest racist New Agers appropriations without permission from the Lakota's sacred ceremonies, but Nahida can call Zionists (Jews) a cancer on the world, what's up with that?

LouisAlemayehu,
Wold War II was a self inflicted trauma designed to precipitate the Holocaust which in turn was manipulated as a justification for all the horrors that Zionists are inflicting upon innocents all over the planet in their quest for world domination.
As itsaNaziWorldOrder rightly pointed out Hitler was a stooge, a fabrication of the Zionist Establishment who was armed and prodded and pushed into a war that he had not intended to wage nor desired the way it was forced upon him. History books are written by those same people who conrol the main stream media (MSM). It is all distortion of reality. Nothing but lies. We have been lied to about the origin and root causes of the 2 world wars. Both were Zionits wars for domonation, Europe first, the whole world next.
The aim of World War II was creation of the state of Israel. Millions died including 6 million Jews, by Zionists'scheme and design while Hitler was blamed for the crime.
These blood thirsty criminals are unique in the history of mankind in brutality and cruelty and madness. May God curse them.

"Israel is and always was an Ashkenazy dream."

Really?

So what were the Masons doing there prior to the establishment of Israel and what about this declaration from a prominent Mormon (some claim they were the real impetus behind modern day Zionism), a religion that was itself created by the Masonic Order?

Russell wrote:

"There are now in the world more than ten million Jews, about three-quarters of whom are in Russia, Poland, the Balkan States, and Turkey. If the movement toward Palestine should get the impulse that the Hirsch committee is able to give it, an imaginative person can conceive of the country's doubling or trebling its Jewish population before the close of our century, and of its having a larger Jewish population fifty years hence than it had in ancient times, when its census ran up to three millions. Should the restoration be accomplished, all hail to the New Jerusalem!" Watchtower 1892 November 1 p.329

"The more closely we investigate the New Covenant, the more we must be convinced of this fact - that it belongs to Israel alone." Watch Tower 1909 January 15 p.28

____________

So, "Israel is and always was an Ashkenazy dream."

is just another constructed version of events... 'spin' to cover up the machinations of the real architects behind 'nation building' that have designed for all a place in their games of war... winner takes all of course.

Colleen we aren't just being divided we ARE divided and no New Age la, la, la is going to change that. We can either let our oppressors roll over us or fight back pretty simple.

Israel is and always was an Ashkenazy dream. The Sephardim (Sabras) who were in Palestine prior to the arrival of the militant European Jews lived in peace with the Arabs. When the Ashkenazy eventually took over, the Sabras found themselves victims of Eurocentric discrimination by their so-called fellow Jews. Large numbers of them fled (ironically) to Europe where they found work in factories. Very few of them have returned to Israel and they have refused to fight in the Israeli Army when called upon. The largest number of Jews presently moving to Israel by far are American Orthodox fanatics who regard the people who have been living there for centuries as interlopers. There is no chance these fruitcakes will ever negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians. After all, they have a deed from God.

"Pinochet vs Canada, what's the real difference? Well, I guess Canada has GENOCIDED far more than Pinochet achieved, and unlike Pinochet, whose reign of hellish horror ended not all that many years after it started, GENOCIDE is ONGOING in Canada, while FEW, very few North Americans are aware of this; and for those who are aware, it's LITTLE."

The point is that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

And, Canada's natives are being spied upon (and sorted) with ruses of some very sophisticated (and invasive) info gathering techniques... in which their 'elders' are being convinced to participate.

I know; my daughter was involved in one of these 'public health' research projects!

Many are unaware how real the surveillance and sorting in our societies (US included) is and that MANY 'liberal' and 'progressive' programs are serving not the interests of the poor and needy, but rather the information-gathering and social control programs that support and protect elite rule...

so that the most promising of the youth can be neutralized early and potential psychopaths can be encouraged and if successfully developed, plucked for services to the elite (tokenism being itself a very powerful use to promote the erroneous conclusion of a democratic open society) controlled order...

The rest are 'inexplicably' (just lazy, dumb, stubborn, etc. being the orchestrated assumptions) and continuously defeated... while public and government 'efforts' to help are seen to be continuous...

"Saudi Arabia is hellish for govt, but, afaik anyway, it's not committing genocide, or not like what we have going on here; I think, anyway."

This is not true. Saudi Arabia has usurped the rights including economic of an entire people. That is the Saudi program; economic genocide held in place by a draconian police state.

"I think if Israel invaded Saudi Arabia, it would result in liberation for the people there."

Spoken by a Tunisian (and former committed anti-Semitic) just after he returned from Saudi Arabia where he was interviewed for a prestigious position by the Saudi royal family. (He had been offered the job, complete with a palace of his own... and this was the reaction of a man who had been raised in a mud hut!)

"staying_sane_in_an_insane_world May 26th, 2008 11:01 am

Just to add to my post above, an analogy would be Osama bin Laden touching down at a U.S. airport, the police refusing to board the plane, fearing a shoot-out, and then permission granted for the plane to fly out of the airport, taking bin Laden with it."

I understand the logic of that post, but it's OFF-BASE.

Why? The U.S. has NO criminal charges against Usama Bin Ladin, and you don't go around arresting people you don't have criminal charges against unless they're acting violently.

The son of a Holocaust survivor being banned from Israel for not supporting Israeli policies.

American veterans being banned from a Memorial Day parade for not supporting American policies.

Symbols such as the Holocaust and supporting veterans are used to manipulate the public into supporting evil policies that they would normally find abhorrent. These sorts of events just expose the lie.

"Shit, the totalitarian Israeli govt was awarding considerable sums of money for all Jews across this planet to move to Israel, for the hellbent project of ever expanding Israel by expropriating ever more Palestinians from their ancestral land; and a lot of scum accepted this bs bribery, because they're clearly of evil nature."

Why is this any different than the settling of North America? Same interests sponsoring the same genocidal programs... not to further the interests of the settlers, but to advance the territorial and resource interests of the European ruling elite...

I see no difference in the story of Israel except that there had been much more European meddling for centuries prior to the decision to create a perpetual thorn to be used (and in many cases blamed) for all sorts of continuing mischief in Middle East affairs.

Today, Jews are appalled still at Nazi behavior but are generally unwilling to address the fact that Hitler himself was a servant of the German army and elevated to his position by Queen Victoria's grandson, Kaiser Wilhelm...

And that numbers of US and English political, industrial, banking and media interests assisted him in establishing his Third Reich.

The same is true of Israel. Israel has never been independent of the war-making designs of the elite; it was founded to further those designs.

And war should never be understood to be a limited goal. It has always been a regular pastime of the elite...

"War is still the only game worth playing."

Cyrus Samrad, Iranian industrialist and Israeli, CIA, MI6 collaborator

iammyself says:

"As a person of Jewish descent, I do what I can to support a peaceful two-state region."
***************
It is much too late for a two-state solution.

Only if the Jews get lucky, will they possibly be allowed one day (undoubtedly far in the future) to live in peace in a single democratic State of Palestine. A state that might (despite their undeserving past deeds) afford them equal rights with Palestinians, and where there is total separation of church and state. At that point the State of Israel will be history, while Jews (if they are lucky) may live a happier life in the State of Palestine.

In the meantime, Israelis will live with relentless and unending terror attacks, and mounting anger against them in the world, and in America.

Such will be the legacy of the usurpation of the Zionism of Theodore Hertzl (its founder) by the later David ben Gurion and Chaim Weissman faction of Zionism - the faction that adopted ethnic cleaning as the road to a "home for the Jews".

Despite their lack of military power and outside support, the Palestinians are not lacking in superior patience, unending perserverance, and a very high birth rate - all key factors that will ensure success.

It will be the same hard lesson that the French learned in Algeria, and that the Boers learned in South Africa.

When I was an active academic on a relatively peaceful campus in upstate New York, hardly a decade ago, I circulated articles and arguments by Edward Said, because I thought they might be overlooked, or easily ignored. In response, I received acerbic attacks--on paper--accusing me of supporting terrorists and of being dishonorable to my Armenian heritage. I wanted dialogue, not diatribe, and was deeply hurt and saddened. but was also reminded of the heritage of hate engendered by violence, on all aides, and which a few neutral words could not easily sweep aside. So where does that put me? Somewhat corrected, but still darkly disappointed that otherwise humane and civil thinkers--themselves outside the active violence--were powered by the hate of others.

Clearly the Jewish authorities, as are the Amerikan authorities, do not want a truthteller in their midst.

Saudi Arabia is hellish for govt, but, afaik anyway, it's not committing genocide, or not like what we have going on here; I think, anyway.

" iammyself May 26th, 2008 3:37 pm

...

The key is:
Justice

... I've said nothing about what kind of two-state solution I represent. I'm not familiar with the specifics, and would support giving land back to the Palestinian people.

What kind of justice do you want?"

Well, I believe Ilan Pappe is among the Jews who, like some bright non-Jews, argue against the two-state solution, saying that it's NOT what is really needed; saying that what would be far better would be for a one-state solution in which both Israeli Jews, Muslims, Christians, ..., and all Palestinians would live in peace, mutual accord, and so on.

That's what Canada and the USA are [supposed] to be, instead of establishing border divisions based on religion, and so on.

Either way, however, it sure seems that the power elites aren't going to allow humanity any kind of real justice whatsoever. And my above post provides a very strong example about Canada.

Canada's indigenous peoples are [sovereign] peoples or populations over which the federal and provincial Canadian govts are NOT supposed to exercise imperialist, colonialist, ... West govt against or upon.

In the case of Israel and Palestine, I believe that most, if not all, Palestinians are indigenous and their sovereignty is also denied, brutally so (not unlike in Canada); while certainly NOT all citizens and non-citizen residents of Israel are indigenous to that area.

Shit, the totalitarian Israeli govt was awarding considerable sums of money for all Jews across this planet to move to Israel, for the hellbent project of ever expanding Israel by expropriating ever more Palestinians from their ancestral land; and a lot of scum accepted this bs bribery, because they're clearly of evil nature.

Anyway, we definitely don't need to point out Saudi Arabia and so on when we can point to the Canadian and U.S. govts operating within national borders. Pinochet vs Canada, what's the real difference? Well, I guess Canada has GENOCIDED far more than Pinochet achieved, and unlike Pinochet, whose reign of hellish horror ended not all that many years after it started, GENOCIDE is ONGOING in Canada, while FEW, very few North Americans are aware of this; and for those who are aware, it's LITTLE.

"Isreali Soldiers Abusing a Palestinian Child:"

This is NOT an exclusive Jew vs. Palestinians problem. It is being replayed all over this world!

By a human culture that promotes power over natural connection.

I have just such a memory emblazoned in my mind... of a tall Argentinean cop harassing young children on their way home from school... in particular a very frightened and confused little girl... and he was laughing and enjoying himself.

I was also told about police programs where the poorest barrios were routinely attacked and everyone was thrown out of their homes in the middle of the night just to keep them in fear and intimidated.

These intimidation tactics and those humans chosen to execute them are always borderline psychotics driven insane in the social orders that everywhere express on this planet, from Taiwan, to Indonesia, from China to Russia.

Such things are happening in all elite run police state societies... and that is the model of all societies with only superficial differences.

As long as we live inside an elitist power/privilege social structure, such crimes will be the norm, not the exception.

It is easy to hate the perpetrator of a crime, especially when their faces are so close, their sadism so palpable… and much harder to discern the process that produced their insanity and dictated that they would attack us personally.

http://allinharmony.org

NO "iammysef" NO
stop deluding "yourself"

The key is:
Justice

What kind of justice do you have in mind, nahida? I've said nothing about what kind of two-state solution I represent. I'm not familiar with the specifics, and would support giving land back to the Palestinian people.

What kind of justice do you want?

"Great democracy that the US is supporting, isn't it????"

We have NEVER supported democracies, only totalitarian police states that we help create. Why do you think we overthrew Allende and so many others? Where have you been?

We support those totalitarian regimes that help administer our interests. We support Saudi Arabia. Can there be anymore draconian government? We supported Pinochet and so many other butchers.

And, we have all the Euro elite backing (often directing) us. Because rule is about privilege and power, not the interests of the majority (that are always the target of some (usually many) subversive programs).

Lobster, perhaps Judaism is a cult. I have experienced the misfortune of not being Jewish enough; by having a Jewish father and a German Catholic mother. I have Never been accepted by the Jewish people, nor the Catholics. It is an ugly side of life for anybody to live and witness. It seems particularly emasculating for the Jewish men whose seed is worthless unless it is put to good use by a Jewish woman. The idea that Jews would engage in ethnic cleansing does not shock me.

Nothing surprising was done to Norman Finkelstein. It's to be very expected. It's totalitarianism, most obviously, but no law of the Universe ensures that we have true democracy when our govts pretend, to us, the "little" people, that we supposedly do have real democracies; and our corrupt govts, sure as day and night seriously differ, are guaranteeing that we do NOT have real democracies.

But, let's have a serious look at the Canadian govt, and Canada's three principal and so-called Christian churches.

Kevin Annett's www.hiddenFromHistory.org

He is a former United Church of Ca who was outed in antiChrist fashion, i.e., by members of the antiChrist "movement", infiltrators of the churches and operating from within them, after he publicly denounced and refused to stop exposing the extreme crimes of GENOCIDE against the First Nations (FN) peoples of Canada. Wherein the churches are extremely guilty, this has MUCH to do with the very hellish (so-called Christian) Residential Schools system, which the Canadian govts, along with the Canadian gangster unit or thugs most people call the RCMP, worked to enforce, including the criminal abduction of many tens of thousands of FN children. And that's over the 20th century, up to and/or into 1970s, but while related crimes continue to be committed by all of these criminal elites of Canada.

Annett's two websites, the above one, and another linked in this one, a full documentation website, are two very important resources.

A currently related, strongly enough anyway, news article from MNN also is very important.

"RCMP evict hereditary chief Kiapilano and supporters Squamish Band Office, Vancouver",
May 25 2008, originally May 24th,

http://www.mohawknationnews.com/news/news3.php?cat=-1

I'd provide the link to only MNN's homepage, but tried loading it earlier this morning and it crashed all of my open browser sessions, in which I had many enough articles open in separate tabs. And I don't know if it's related, but you'll find another article linked in this above MNN News index about the Canadian elites crashing the MNN website some months ago, while also claiming that the host of MNN supposedly abandoned use of this website, which she most definitely did not do.

The above article is about Chief Kiapilano and other members of his FN Rights movement being evicted from their own land. In the same article, or in other recent ones posted at MNN, we learn that Chief Kiapilano and Kevin Annett, who I learned (this morning) is the person the FN have given the name of 'Eagle Strong Voice'; well, they held an eviction demonstration at the 'Holy Rosary (Roman) Catholic Church' in Vancouver in March, to post notices of eviction against the three main Canadian churches, or at least the RC Church, to be evicted from the Squamish tribe's land(s).

They, these criminals, are trying to STEAL the natural resources (the profitable ones) from the Canadian First Nations and ... like "all over" the country; there being plenty more information on this at MNN.

If we cannot provide the long overdue Justice to the indigenous peoples of North America, then what does this leave us for any real hope for Iraqis, Afghans, Haitians, South Americans, Africans, the expropriated population of Diego Garcia, the populations of Lebanon and Palestine, and ... so on? NONE, NO real hope.

I'm not a historian, but it seems like there have NEVER, before, in human history, so many GENOCIDES being committed by the imperialist, colonialist, ... West; and based on a short article I read just some minutes ago at www.JoinTheFederation.org , which is for the Federation of Sovereign Nations in Canada, these genocides are much due to the British Maritime and Rothschild(s?) system of so-called law.

"Letters: Dear Chief Kiapilano, from jule du varrens", April 16 2008

http://www.jointhefederation.org

Du Varrens is of the Institute of Communication Ethics, and says he asked media colleagues to follow these events very closely.

I state that from from the above letter, but while now meaning with respect to the news media, due to what Kevin Annett states at the beginning of the following article.

"First Nations: Why an Apology is Wrong, and Deceptive: Bringing Humanity to Bear on the Residential School Atrocity

by Rev. Kevin Annett

Global Research, May 25, 2008
www.mohawknationnews.com "

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9066

He says that he submitted that article, which is surely important, just that I came across it only this morning and haven't read it yet; well, he submitted the article to [many] Canadian newspapers, and they ALL IGNORED, disregarded, "shredded" it.

Obviously a strong example of Canadian "news" media editors criminally censoring critical news, perhaps the [most] critical in all of Canada right now; besides being criminally partner in the war on Afghanistan, but which has been reported many enough times, definitely when compared to the disgustingly constant censorship of the ONGOING GENOCIDES against Canadian First Nations peoples anyway.

Noam Chomsky, who's another critic in the same group as Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe, among others, has basically made Kevin Annett a Nobel Peace Prize award recipient; just that it's unofficial. It's quoted at Annett's website.

Lastly, I sure hope Western activists against foreign crimes of the West will start paying considerable attention to the ongoing genocides happening HERE!

This world is an awfully bad, tragic state. It is all incredible; only it is all and really happening.

Not just Palestinians and Professors are suspect at Ben Gurion, middle aged American women leaving there can also interest the authorities.

Telling the Truth at Ben Gurion

[Tel Aviv, Israel , July 28, 2007 ] I left the American Colony Hotel in East Jerusalem: Occupied Territory at 8 AM and arrived at Ben Gurion Airport fifty minutes later.

I only hire Palestinian drivers whenever I travel in Israel Palestine, and for the first time in all my five journeys, my Palestinian driver did not have to leave his car and go into the interrogation building. Security asked me politely for my passport and to get out of the car and identify my luggage in the trunk. I did as I was told and then security returned my passport with a round blue sticker and the number 78 on the back cover. The sticker marks one as being with a Palestinian and triggers a more in-depth interrogation inside the terminal.

I told Samir, my driver, "I am not removing the sticker this time. I am livid to the point of over boil at all I have seen and heard these past two weeks and I will not shut up until I get it all out. I will be writing for the next week about what I have learned and I am going to tell airport security exactly where I have been and that I have been reporting it all on the web. I am flaming mad at my government and pathetic mainstream media who do not tell the truth about what is really going down in the Holy Land, which is all in pieces; Bantustans! Bush and Olmerts concept of a contiguous Palestinian state means connecting the unconnected enclaves with underground tunnels while the illegal settlers; colonists; squatters get to use the well paved apartheid roads and my tax dollars support this occupation and injustice! I am totally pissed off and whipped and worn out with misery and grief at all I have seen, heard and it has gone to my gut; my heart in other words, and I will not be silent; I cannot shut up."

Sam just shrugged.

The very first Ben Gurion employee, who questioned me, was the very same young trainee I had encountered in November 2006, but I didn't tell her that I remembered her. Eight months ago she was hesitant and apologetic in her questioning, but she had now mastered the routine, and there was no joking around. She was very concerned if anyone had given me anything that could be a bomb.

I told her nobody gave me anything except coffee, tea, water, soda, cookies, fruit, hummus and bobaganouh during my visits in Palestinian homes in Ramallah, Bethlehem, and in the Dasheish, Aida and Jenin refugee camps.

"How many times have you been to Israel?"

"This is my fifth trip."

"Do you have family here?"

"Not blood family, but friends who have become like family."

"What was the purpose for your trip?"

"I am an Internet reporter and I came to investigate what my government and the USA media doesn't talk about."

"So, have all your trips here been for business?"

"You could say that."

She then led me to the first x-ray machine, and after my bags passed through, she returned to me accompanied by another young woman and a young man in a suit.

He asked me; "How many times have you been to Israel?"

"This was my fifth trip and I spent all my time in occupied territory."

"Where have you been?"

" East Jerusalem, Bethlehem , Ramallah and Jenin. I am an Internet reporter and you can read all about my journey on my website," I replied as I handed him my card.

He looked at it carefully, smiled and replied, "Very nice, very interesting."

"Thanks. I hope you will read what I have to share."

"Oh, I will. May I keep your card?"

"Of course, it is yours and tell your friends to read me too."

"Thank you for your cooperation. There was a problem with your bags, they must go back through the x-ray machine."

"OK," I said and returned once again to where I had just been.

After the bags came back out, the young man in the suit informed me, "Your bags need to be further examined."

He led me to the next phase, a large rectangular space of tables with x-ray equipment in the middle and delivered me to station number 9, where three females were waiting for me. They asked me to open up all my bags and with plastic gloves on their hands; they swabbed and examined every surface and every article. My sunscreen lotion and Pink IPOD shuffle caused them some concern, but what really got them nervous was a stain on an old suitcase and they wanted to know, "How long had it been there?"

I had no clue as I borrowed the bag from my daughter and hadn't even noticed it until they brought it up. It took 35 minutes for them to go through all my stuff, and all my careful packing was for naught. They were pleasant enough, but nobody responded to me when I said, "All of this happens just because I have been to occupied Palestine? Oh well, every experience is writing material."

After they were satisfied I had no explosives in my luggage, one of them offered to help me repack, but I declined. As soon as I was zipped back up, one of them told me without making any eye contact, "Now I have to check you for metal."

"OK, sure, but I think you mean a strip search?"

[I had my first Dec. 2005, triggered because I had Palestinian NONVIOLENT literature in my suitcase.]

She didn't respond and led me to the examining room where my shoes, belt, and jewelry came off and she told me to sit down and she would be right back. After my shoes and belt passed the x-ray inspection, she returned to me and told me to extend my legs so she could pat them down. Then she instructed me to stand up and hold my arms out so she could wand me all over. The wand kept alarming in the vicinity of the metal buttons and rivets on my jeans. She said, "Have a seat; I must get my supervisor."

She returned with a young woman, who also never made eye contact with me and commanded, "You need to drop your pants around your knees."

I complied and after she wanded me all over she turned and left, and I called to her back, "Did I pass the inspection? Can I get dressed?"

She never responded but my first 'companion' said "Yes."

I was then led back to my luggage and another female; one who did make eye contact and smiled a lot. "Come with me," she said and I followed along.

She led me to the front of a line of about twenty travelers' at the Continental check in desk.

Two American women [I imagine of the Zionist sort]had been first in line and behind them was an angry looking man who yelled at my 'companion' in Hebrew. She responded without a smile in Hebrew back to him, and then smiled when I said to the Americans, "I got to cut in front of you, because I am a security risk. I have been to occupied territory and have been writing all about what I witnessed and learned on the World Wide Web. Have a card and tell your friends."

After receiving my boarding pass, my 'companion' led me on, and as soon as we were out of ear shot from the line of travelers she remarked, "Israelis can be so very rude."

I responded, "So, all this personal attention is just because I told the truth?"

She smiled again but made no comment until we passed through the employees security check and arrived at Passport control. "Sorry to have put you through all this, but it's just our job."

"I know how that is for I have been doing mine in occupied territory and this morning's experience has provided me with my next article."

PS-The morning I left Jerusalem, Israel was in 15th place out of 70+ countries that hit on WAWA daily. Upon my return to the USA the next day they had jumped to 3rd place and remained in the top 6 for the following 6 weeks and top 10 ever since.

BTW, USA Govt. and Military are consistently in top 20. Nice to know that i know Big Bro is interested.

WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

Great democracy that the US is supporting, isn't it????

The role of the British Euro empire in the establishment of Israel and the empire's continuing role to foment unrest and genocide in the Middle East must be understood.

Israel is not a sovereign country anymore than Iraq, Iran or Saudi Arabia is and censorship throughout the empire is extreme... though some countries have semblance programs that are meant to substantiate a general belief in government being democratic, such as in the US, France or Israel...

But, we are clearly a military police state with the only freedom allowed being conformity to the stupidities promulgated by the military corporate elite.

The Jews of Europe who generally never wanted to be settled in Israel were given 'refuge' there after some pretty intense handling by the empire (don't forget the role of Britain in establishing the Third Reich)... and their first orders were to begin the genocide of Palestinians.

(The empire rules, and extends rule, by genocidal policies... always.)

In many ways the Jewish story is not unlike the recruiting of the poor and the minorities in this country for military service.

How many would have chosen to give up all their freedom (even to think for themselves and even about the act of killing another person, even a child) and become a soldier had any other opportunities been available? Not many is my guess.

Our military has a very strong presence in poor neighborhoods because that is where the created destitution can be harvested to advance the genocidal and control interests of the empire.

The Jews are victims of this process. The problem with many Jews in the US is that they are fearful of facing these facts and believe that their resistance to looking at them will afford them individual protection. And like the greater society, here and in Germany during the holocaust, they tell themselves that the genocides in the Middle East (of Palestinians, Iraqis...) are not their responsibility...

And then they shout the justifications for genocide to keep themselves protected from guilt..."Arabs are terrorists!"

But, wars are fomented and acts of terrorism do not just happen... they are incubated... not alone by created iniquities but by those who train the terrorists after they have been 'made ready' (impoverished and violated)... and the trainers are the secret services such as MI6 and the CIA.

Good old democratic Israel. It frosts me that my tax money is keeping that nasty state in business.

To Norman Finkelstein: Dude you rock! Don't let the bastards get to you. Like Nahida I thank any Jew who is against injustice against Palestinians. I know it may seem lonely, but I love you all for it!

We need much much more Jewish people to wake up and try to reverse the damage that was done against Palestinians, against the Jews, and the world- by Zionism

nahida,

What Israel is doing to the occupied land is criminal and should stop. Many of us here know this and support the cause of a two-state region. As a person of Jewish descent, I do what I can to support a peaceful two-state region.

The key, in my opinion, is peace - it must be practiced by both sides. I am doing my part on the Jewish/Israeli side, I hope you are doing your part on your own side too.

Best wishes for our success.

Shalom.

A commenter on CD once said that democracy cannot function in any nation with a population over 20 million. Israel has a little over 7 million people and apparently it doesn't work there either.

Listen, Israelis! You're destroying yourselves as surely as the people of the United States are destroying themselves. Human beings are fickle; their attention spans are short. One of these days, most of the people in this country will be eating dog food because that's all they will be able to afford. They'll throw you overboard without batting an eye. Then what will you do? You can't keep up this Zionist crap forever.