RSJ May 25th, 2008 6:20 pm

"Lobo Gris [May 24th, 2008 7:09 am] there aren't enough Dems to prevent a filibuster by the GOP or override a presidential veto. Absent of that, a simple majority in the House isn't enough, and, what with turncoat Lieberman and the handful of conservative Dem senators, Dems have far less than a majority in the Senate that they could rely on to pass legislation and impeach BushCo."

You're wrong on all counts. All the Dems had to do was to prevent any funding bill from coming up for a vote which they could easily do since as the majority they control the committees. No bill, no war funding, nothing to veto. As for impeachment, the House impeaches where all it takes is a simple majority to vote to do so, which the Dems have. if the House votes to impeach the Senate has to conduct a trial, they have no say.

Lobo Gris

Dave Zirin continues to add to his legacy by writing about the Pat Tillman story. Mr. Zirin is the only sportswriter that sees a connection between sports and politics, and actively and effectively writes about it. It is a "natural" for Mr. Zirin to interview Mary Tillman, Pat's mother, because Pat was an athlete who gave up everything, including his life, to serve our country. For him to be disrespected by "the powers that be" is obscene.

No thing, 4thefuture [May 24th, 2008 12:10 pm], I reread my post and I came off snarkier than I intended.

cosmobilly [May 24th, 2008 1:27 pm], good post and Pat Tillman was, unfortunately, like some of my friends who were in Vietnam -- they had to be in the belly of the beast before they realized what a charade it was. Yes, they should have known better before joining up -- as some did in those days -- but we all have to follow our own path. I was told by someone who claimed to be 'inside' the Dem Party that the Dems are intentionally holding back things to use against the GOP in the fall. She hinted that the Tillman story was one of those things. We'll see.

braveheart [May 25th, 2008 8:09 am] your story is heartwrenching and I hope your cause becomes more public and you find the answers you seek. It's unconscionable and disgusting for the Pentagon to hide the true reasons for a son or daughter's KIA or MIA status from his or her parents.

If you don't vote Democrat, you are surely voting for McSame, even if you stay home, sooo your point is what?

Namaste

My heart is with the Tillmans in all their emotion and I am grateful that they have been able to focus attention on the Army's cover-up of the circumstances of Pat's death.

This is especially important to me, as I've been working very hard for seven years trying to untangle the lies surrounding my own soldier-son's death.

There have also been several investigations (reportedly) due to the intervention of my US Senators and Congressman and my own one-on-one interviews, FOIA requests, appeals, hiring of lawyers to petition courts for investigation reports, etc., etc. I am still waiting to see these investigation reports.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately) it was Pat's celebrity status which has brought his story to the forefront. His family is furious, but they can have some closure.

There are many, many families whose children were killed in questionable circumstances while on active military duty.

The military has a well-honed method of keeping the truth under wraps and families under control to keep these stories from going public.

We are trying to make a difference at http://non-combat-death.org

It is absolutely mind-boggling that the Tillman incident hasn't stirred more attention and demanded more justice than it has - frankly, a remarkably poignant testament to the extent of the hypnotic American trance state. The Tillman story is the story of we the people - strong, independent, optimistic, trusting, suckered by fine ideals, disillusioned, diminished, betrayed, denied, and eventually discarded.

Generally, with perhaps a few exceptions, believing in fine ideals in this country - American Idealism, mom, apple pie, truth, justice and the American Way - whether at home, in school, at work, in government or the military is to be hoodwinked into playing the role of the fool. A pragmatic stupor has well taken hold, and once realized in your personal life, the best you can do is flail against it with insubstantial chatter and touchy-feely attempts to engage with others in pseudo-support groups. AND THEN REJOIN the mindless pursuit and consumption that results from a pervasive secular materialism.

If Pat Tillman had any real sense of what was/is actually going on in the world, who Bush and his family represent, what Cheney stands for, of the values and objectives that underlie both the causes of corporatism and terrorism, then he could never have given himself to their cause, and America would never have subscribed to the neocon agenda, or the transnationals version of globalism.

The sadness is that it took the death of his brother to waken Kevin Tillman's eyes to the truth. But the truth had been there all along.

The dream is over - time to wake up.

Yes, RSJ, I defer to your tally. I was simply looking at the specific letters, "z" "i" "n" versus "z" "i" "r" "n" and not the number of times they were used. My bad.

josephmorton [May 23rd, 2008 9:45 pm], you need professional help. The Iraq War isn't the fault of Pat Tillman and his reasons for enlisting to fight it weren't dishonorable. Perhaps he was gullible for listening to Bush in the days after the shock of 9/11, but the majority of Americans are guilty of that. He was certainly no 'clown,' 'idiot' or 'war criminal.' My God, the Tillman's lost their son and you're calling them 'stupid' and money-grubbing? You should be ashamed of yourself.

blessthebeasts [May 23rd, 2008 11:47 pm], since he was shot in the head at point-blank range, it's pretty certain that he was killed by his own troops. Plus, I believe I heard on the radio that the conclusion of some quickly buried Army investigation of the matter was that his openly espousing his anti-war and anti-Bush views, and his intention to share those views when he was out of uniform, was a contributing factor to his murder.

Actually, 4thefuture [May 24th, 2008 6:53 am] the difference between 'Zirin' and 'Zinn' is TWO letters, not one. I agree, details are important.

Lobo Gris [May 24th, 2008 7:09 am] there aren't enough Dems to prevent a filibuster by the GOP or override a presidential veto. Absent of that, a simple majority in the House isn't enough, and, what with turncoat Lieberman and the handful of conservative Dem senators, Dems have far less than a majority in the Senate that they could rely on to pass legislation and impeach BushCo.

Daniel David May 23rd, 2008 12:49 pm

"Yep, sure enough, the votes in 2000 and 2004 for Nader (those outside the Dems/Repubs) went a long, long way toward stopping the madness."

Ah yes just as electing Democrats in 2006 did so much good.

Democrats who stopped the war in Iraq, just like they promised

Democrats who impeached Bush and Cheney for all the violations of law and the Constitution which they swore to protect in their oath of office.

Oops! They didn't do those things or many others that they have promised to do.

Yep that makes the Democrats the logical choice (all sarcasm fully intended)

Lobo Gris

His name is "Zirin" not "Zinn." See, "Zinn" that's someone else, someone I also like, but I can tell them apart.

If we can't get the obvious details right, how can anyone have any confidence in the rest of what we are saying? I know, it's just one letter, so get over it. What difference could one letter be? Iraq/Iran? Paying attention to details is important. That's what life is ... details.

Wow, the crazies have high-jacked this post.The Tillman story will turn out to be the metaphor for the Bush administration.

Had the Titanic hit the iceberg head on, it wouldn't have sunk.

And the truth is that the democratic party would rather hit an iceberg than start supporting some basic 'democratic' principles: ending the war, impeaching the president, decrease military spending, universal health care etc.

And what I would ask her is when she knew that she was getting betrayed by her country, and if she has talked to Cindy Sheehan.

PS - Lies work. People who don't lie do so because it is the wrong thing to do, not because they don't think they can get away with it.

Pat Tillman was a marked man for his intolerance for the Iraq war, which he was quoted as saying, "You know, this war is F***ing ILLEGAL", and for his no bullshit expectations of his fellow rangers. He was disliked by his naive gung-ho fellow soldiers for his outspoken views and he was going to speak with Noam Chomsky as soon as he got leave and was advertising it.

Bushcon wasn't going to tolerate their postboy soldier who gave up millions to go fight terrorism - to his anti war views. He would be hero dead, and a dead liability if he, became a high profile critic of their oil wars.

They had a BlackWater operative, dressed as a Ranger join Pat's squad and off him.

Thank you, Dave Zirin for an excellent article on Common Dreams.

Rich Griffin; Correct! I left the opposition party specifically because there isn't enough "real opposition" and invite all liberal/progressive people to join us Greens.

I wish the Tillman family would join with Cindy Sheehan to demand the truth about their sons' deaths. I think there's a very good chance Pat Tillman was murdered for his anti-war views.

I hope you do ask those tough questions about Pat Tillman coming to question things about the war.

I kept waiting for Amy Goodman to go in that direction on Democracy Now!, but was completely disappointed in that regard with Amy.

Josephmorton, talk about mush headed.........
You are one uncaring, mean spirited person!

My heart goes out to the Tillmans and all parents that have lost a son or daughter in this unlawful occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. That said, I could never understand why anyone, especially someone in Pat Tillman's position, could have believed all the lies that enabled Bush to get us into this situation. It is obvious that the Army used Pat as a recruiting tool and wanted to continue using him, even if it
required a cover-up of his death. It should be apparent to everyone that our government is just as corupt and dishonest as any other in the world. Dems and/or Repubs, it makes no difference. The only way to tell them apart is,
the Republicans preach values and morals, then whine when they get caught with their fingers somewhere they shouldn't be. They are kinda like a preacher who tells you how to live your life and then runs off with the church secretary, or gets caught with some road whore.

who cares what they do?

I had never heard of Pat Tillman until the military started using this clown for propaganda purposes, and now the stupid family is trying to cash in on this idiots death. He was a war criminal caught by the incompetents who are given guns to kill children. He got killed; so what? How much concern does this mother, trying to exploit the American suckers by selling a stupid book, have for the poor people killed by these mindless soldiers? Boots on the Ground, what a stupid title. How about "war criminals who get killed by their fellow war criminals should stop trying to get sympathy that none of these war criminals deserve. And why would the mush headed liberal Amy Goodman contiribute to the nonsense? The family has no shame but mush heads should not be used to promote the nonsense of this misguided Tillman woman.

I had never heard of Pat Tillman until the military started using this clown for propaganda purposes, and now the stupid family is trying to cash in on this idiots death. He was a war criminal caught by the incompetents who are given guns to kill children. He got killed; so what? How much concern does this mother trying to exploit the American suckers by selling a stupid book. Boots on the Ground, what a stupid title. How about "war criminals who get killed by their fellow war criminals should stop trying to get sympathy that none of these war criminals deserve. And why would the mush headed liberal Amy Goodman contiribute to the nonsense? The family has no shame but mush heads should not be used to promote the nonsense of this misguided Tillman woman.

Daniel David [May 23rd, 2008 12:49 pm] and KaneJeeves [May 23rd, 2008 12:59 pm] I agree and, just to extend the Titanic analogy, we need to replace the captain with someone steady and rational who can command the ship, understands the rules of the sea, and has the intelligence to avoid future icebergs. That would not be the obtuse old duffer cheating at cards in the First-Class Saloon, nor the arrogant Grande Dame residing in the luxury DLC Suite. Neither would it be the old man and the young woman floating adrift in the open water, trying to direct the ship through a megaphone that the passengers and crew on the ship can't hear.

william street [May 23rd, 2008 3:03 pm] wrote: "I also hope that in the months to come (and perhaps in Mr. Zirin's upcoming interview) some light is shed upon how Pat Tillman's tragic death was temporarily seized upon and shamelessly packaged up in red, white and blue for purposes of pro-war propaganda by the Pentagon's faceless psy-ops boys."

I hope so too, Bill. It's disgusting that the Pentagon tried to use Pat Tillman as a recruting tool for the war in Iraq that he was against.

hazmat [May 23rd, 2008 3:24 pm] wrote: "presumably you two did your parts toward stopping the madness by voting gore/lieberman in 2000 and kerry/edwards 2004. how's that working out?"

Actually, Hazmat, Gore and Kerry won, they just didn't want to fight for it. In the fullness of history, this may turn out to be a good thing -- since 2004, Bush and his cronies have been exposed for the liars and profiteers they are; had he been replaced in the last election, the madness of the neocons might have continued and even been emboldened by a weak president like Kerry. Bush also wouldn't have been rated by historians and considered by the public as the worst US president of all time, and there wouldn't have been an opening for a black or woman to make a serious bid for the presidency.

lcotler [May 23rd, 2008 5:09 pm] wrote: "I want to know the real reason the Tillman boys enlisted?
"If they thought the war was just and they wanted to do their duty to God and Country, well, they were duped. But — they did have their eyes opened. How did that come about? Other young women and men ought to have the benefit of that turn-arond."

Icotler, from what I've read Pat Tillman, like friends of mine who were in Vietnam, patriotically enlisted because he sincerely believed he was fighting the enemies of his country and to maintain freedom and democracy. (Of course, Pat went the extra mile by giving up a multi-million dollar career in pro football.) Similar to my Nam pals, he found out once in the war that it was all flag-waving BS propaganda to get the yokels back home to support handing their money over to the military-industrial complex for expensive new weapons, and to replace the ones that were destroyed in combat. They also discovered that there was a very lucrative US drug-running operation in Southeast Asia, but they never found out exactly who was getting rich off of that -- the CIA, the military brass, politicians, all three? Today, there's a very lucrative contractual operation in Iraq to transfer our tax money into profits for the corporate friends of Bush, Cheney and other honchos of the GOP. And it's probably no accident that poppy production levels in Afghanistan are at record highs. In Iraq and Afghanistan, as in Vietnam, our troops only serve to guard the profits of the multi-national corporations and use up the military hardware that will need to be replaced. There is no other reason for them to be there -- even Israel is now fully capable of protecting itself.

andrew.herman May 23rd, 2008 6:03 pm wrote: "We need a new political party. Green or whatever! We need to have a government system that stands up for the workers."

I agree, but for a third party to be successful, they are going to have to organize and raise money; establish themselves and put up candidates for office in all 50 states; be realistic in their agenda, i.e: don't claim they are going to magically convert the country from oil to green energy instantly if their presidential candidate is elected; appeal to the middle and working class; form a coherent media strategy and learn how to effectively advertise and attract free media; and find a serious high-profile candidate for president -- such as a Robert Redford -- that can get free media. So far, the only third party that has come close to fulfilling these requirements is the Libertarian Party.

The satanization of independents (as socialists and liberals) is BS. Dismissing them is BS too. If you are not democrat or repub then you can't play the game? The game is not working very well for us, is it?

They want us to believe all this God Bless America's two party system crap and it's a load of crap.

We need a new political party. Green or whatever! We need to have a government system that stands up for the workers.

In France strikers would have shut down the whole country by now if the price of groceries and utilities shot up 50-400% as it has here in America.

We need a brand new Boston Tea Party idea. This time it must target our corrupt leaders in Washington DC (those who attended Cheney's top secret energy meetings).

I want to know the real reason the Tillman boys enlisted?

If they thought the war was just and they wanted to do their duty to God and Country, well, they were duped. But -- they did have their eyes opened. How did that come about? Other young women and men ought to have the benefit of that turn-arond.

If, however, they knew the war was unjust and criminal and they wanted to see and experience it first hand in order to come back and tell the truth as they saw it, then that, too, ought to come out. They (Kevin and family now, and Pat from the grave) can perhaps now get the media's attention long enough to connect with the People. Only the People can save our country now. The Three Branches of government are corrupt and irresponsible. The Fourth Estate, the media, is lost to the People, too -- they've sold their souls to the corporations that own them who have, in turn, sold out to the politicians (or is it vice versa?).

Only the People can save us now. And that is a long, long shot.

Nature bats last. And I believe she's going to bat us right out of the ballpark.

In the hopes of clarity.

To be brief-----when everyone's son and daughter is at risk, then the importance of "freedom" and "liberty" for others will fade.
Let the "others" who want "freedom" and "liberty" risk their own sons and daughters.

Thank you for your time-----I apologize for not being clear enough.

The Titanic control room metaphor breaks down in that we, the people, are carrying the ship of state on our backs towards the iceberg.

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/Update/Update2008-05-22.htm

re 12:49pm and 12:59pm

presumably you two did your parts toward stopping the madness by voting gore/lieberman in 2000 and kerry/edwards 2004. how's that working out?

...serial enablers...

(non sarcastic beginning, as opposed to my last post)
I -WOULD- agree with NativeSon if it weren't for the fact that we can see the results of Vietnam-era conscription in our military still today. The children of the rich chosen to go to war either got out of it by being able to "grease the wheels" in various ways or they got into officer positions the same way, and now we have a military chock full of officers that got their positions not by being competent, but by being well connected.

I feel a universal government service program would be an excellent idea, but there would need to be a serious readjustment in the methods used in determining rank and promotion selection.

I agree with NativeSon except that "Mandatory service for all Americans..... would keep these same sad stories from being told with every generation."

Speaking as one who was drafted in the summer of 1968 and lived to come back from US Army infantry service overseas (the Pentagon computer sent me to South Korea rather than to South Vietnam), I retain a firm belief that universal conscription would exacerbate the mindless misuse of militarism rather than further the cause of peace. If the goal is to do justice, spreading yet more injustice throughout the entire population without regard for race, background, or social class seems to me a twisted and counterproductive technique to ostensibly further that end.

If the Tillman family feels more comfortable seeking truth through the efforts of John McCain or Wesley Clark individually, rather than through affiliation with antiwar groups like Veterans for Peace, then I certainly respect their decision and wish them all the best.

I also hope that in the months to come (and perhaps in Mr. Zirin's upcoming interview) some light is shed upon how Pat Tillman's tragic death was temporarily seized upon and shamelessly packaged up in red, white and blue for purposes of pro-war propaganda by the Pentagon's faceless psy-ops boys.

That tasteless, self-serving, and eventually abortive cover up is a genuine insult to veterans, their loved ones, and to honest citizens everywhere - more food for thought on this Memorial Day.

Bill from Saginaw

I agree with Daniel and Kane, if we can all just bury our heads in the sand and pretend that we're changing things 'slowly' or 'from the inside' while completely ignoring the ample evidence that the people we support are working against us while talking to us like we're children, everything will turn out like sunshine and pink unicorns.

Yep, either that or we'll have a repeat of the last Democratic administration, a lot of platitudes and a lot of catering to the 'ownership society' types. I mean, with results like Clinton welfare reform and NAFTA, we should be a bit more leery in thinking that the Democratic 'leadership'is anything but supportive of the technocratic authoritarianism that many of you mistakenly think of as 'right-wing'. Oh, it may be rightist, but the term 'wing' inspires an image of balance, which is a ludicrous notion to anyone who's not drinking the Kool-Aid.

My heart breaks for the Tillman family, but I applaud them for carrying on in their search for truth. I hope it helps.

Unfortunately this tragic result is what comes from so many who are willing to allow these illegal wars to be mounted at every generation's beck and call.

To complain of a corrupt Military, under the direction of a corrupt Government is much like "smoke in the wind", it soon disappears from sight. Instead, why not make young Mr. Tillman's sacrifice be expressed in the manner that will cause future generations to refuse the call for volunteers to participate in an illegal war*, and leave the Military no other choice but to complain about having no one to sacrifice.

Mr. Tillman was a "citizen soldier", who allowed himself to be duped by a corrupt group of Professional Politicians and Multigenerational Social Parasites, who had total control over a corrupt Professional Military. I did the same, thirtyfive years ago, and was spared to share the futility of such a sacrifice. Mr. Tillman may have believed in the war in Afghanistan, which by law was a UN act, and legal, but he also put himslef in line to be sent anywhere the "corruption "wanted him to be. When it turned out badly for the propaganda machine, the corruption, well practiced as it is, went into "full throtle"----this should be no suprise, except to those who are duped by them.

Mandatory service for all Americans, without exception,but for the mentally or physically disabled would prevent these same sad stories from being told with every generation.
In retrospect, how important would those "weapons of mass destruction" have been if the Bush twins and others from the "ruling class" been subject to hostile fire, whether enemy or friendly? Even if those WMDs had actually existed.

* The Nuremburg Tribunals defines any war of aggression as illegal, and anyone who participates in them via support of any kind, as "War Criminals"----even the United Nations.

Rich, you are right. It is the dems/repubs who got us where we are now. Anyone who continues to vote for the Democratic or Republican candidates is an accomplice to war crimes.

I agree with Daniel. You don't stop the Titanic from hitting the iceberg by going to the back of the boat and building a new control room. You work your way into the existing control room and change course enough to save the ship. THEN you build a new control room.

Yep, sure enough, the votes in 2000 and 2004 for Nader (those outside the Dems/Repubs) went a long, long way toward stopping the madness.

I usually don't do cynicism, but good grief.

I saw Mary Tillman on Democracy Now! this morning. The truth is that the only way this madness will ever stop is when we stop enabling this (alleged) two-party system, and start to hold them accountable by voting outside the Dem-Repub axis of evil.

I saw Mary and Kevin Tillman at Changing Hands Bookstore in Tempe, AZ last Friday. They are genuine people and after having heard them talk, it is no wonder Pat was the way he was.