Iraq Veterans Describe Atrocities to Lawmakers

This is how Bush-Chaney & Co . wants to win hearts and minds of people in Middle East and Moslem world; just don't be surprise if GOD FORBIDEN there will be another Sep 11 in our beloved country.
Now Bush-Chaney & Co. is preparing us through their media for another war in Iran despite numerous testimony by top military and civilian officials that Iran does not send weapons to Iraq and we should talk to them; even his own Defense Secretary (Robert Gates) says our diplomacy towards Iran is a SHAM… (http://www.payvand.com/news/08/may/1179.html)

May God helps us all in these next few months that is left from Bush-Chaney & Co. régime.

Listening to Muslims

by John Longhurst, WPG Free Press, May 18, 2008, A13

When it comes to Islam, it sometimes seems that Muslims and non-Muslims are talking past each other.

A poll last year by the Environics Research Group found that 57 per cent of non-Muslim Canadians believed Muslims want to remain distinct from everyone else -- but only 23 per cent of Muslim Canadians said they felt that way. A full 55 per cent said they want to fit in.

Or take the role of women. Among Canadians who report a negative impression of Islam, the single most commonly cited reason is "treatment of women." But 72 per cent of Canadian Muslims say they are not worried about Muslim women taking on modern roles.

These misunderstandings are not unique to Canada; non-Muslims in many countries have misperceptions about Islam. But now a new book by the Gallup research organization has been published to try to bridge that gap. Called Who Speaks For Islam? What A Billion Muslims Really Think, the book is based on six years of research and more than 50,000 interviews in 35 predominantly Muslim nations, or nations with sizable Muslim populations.

Although the book seems aimed mostly at Americans, others will find it interesting. Among other things, it shows that Muslims and Americans are equally as likely to reject attacks on civilians as morally unjustifiable; that Muslims of all ages say they want better jobs and security in the future -- not conflict and violence; that Muslim women want greater equality in their own culture, and resent it when westerners set out to "liberate" them; and that Muslims want the same kinds of freedom, rights and democratization that we enjoy.

When it comes to how they perceive the West, Muslims around the world say what they least admire is the West's perceived moral decay and breakdown of traditional values -- the same answers that Americans themselves give when asked this question.

In terms of what westerners can do to improve relations with the Muslim world, Muslims say they'd like us to change our negative views of Islam and show greater respect for their religion.

The study also found that only seven per cent of Muslims can be considered radicalized, and that their radicalism is driven by politics, not religion -- they are less likely than other Muslims to attend religious services, or to say that religion is an important part of their lives.

In an interview about the research, co-author Dalia Mogahed noted that the anger of radicalized Muslims is more about western foreign policy toward the Islamic world.

"For those who sympathize with extremism, it's not about piety, but perception of policy," she said. "They are not more religious. They are, however, much more intense in their critique of U.S. policy."

Even those who felt the 9/11 attacks were justified did not cite religious justification for that position, she noted. Rather, "they talked about their perception of geopolitical realities and their perception that the United States was an imperialist power, controlling other countries."

If that's the case, why do so many Muslim extremists use religious language when issuing threats and making pronouncements?

According to Mogahed, it's because religion is an important factor in majority-Muslim countries. "Religion is the dominant social currency of Muslim societies around the world," she says, adding that "any movement that wants to gain legitimacy will speak in terms of that social medium, which today is religion."

But what about the West's arch-enemy, Osama bin Laden? Doesn't he use religion to whip up hatred against the West?

"In a bin Laden speech, if you take out the introduction where he blesses the Prophet, and the end where he says "As-salaam aleikum," you've got Che; you've got any revolutionary," says Mogahed. "The rhetoric is about perceptions of imperialism and oppression and humiliation."

Analysis of bin Laden's rhetoric, she notes, shows few Qur'anic verses. "They're evident mostly in their relative absence," she states.

As for radicalized Muslims, they aren't "hardened terrorists," she says. "They are what we call the cheering section. They're people who sympathize with terrorist action, which is very different than being willing to carry it out themselves."

But, she cautions, they do "represent a potential pool of recruits." But that's "very different than saying a 100 million people hate us and are getting ready to kill us."

As for the future, Mogahed says that conflict between the West and the Muslim world is not inevitable. But, she adds, "if we continue to ignore what people are really saying, extremists will continue to gain ground."

Taking note of the findings of studies like these is a good place to start hearing what ordinary Muslims have to say.

More information about the Gallup poll can be found at www.gallup.com.

Jdl562000@yahoo.com'

I don't believe C-Span or any of the bogus enterdrainment news thingys covered the hearing last week.

We must complain to each network . . . and demand coverage.

Lastly, I get the distinct feeling that Obama and Hilarity Clinton have no plans to end the illegal war in Iraq; nor have I heard any politicos state the US will help the people of Iraq for basic necessities and other humanitarian aid.

American GI's don't know who to shoot, or when because they envision every Iraq as a potential suicide bomber. What kind of war is this that endangers so many civilians and innocent children, and families. This war is a disgrace and I hope that these Veterans get their stories out regularly as most citizens have a short memory. All wars are atrocious, but the amount of civilians being murdered in this illegal war is appalling. Weren't we just supposed to get rid of Saddam? We did and should have left years ago. McCain will have us over there for over 10 years.

civil behavior,

"...The core is rotten and the tree is dying."

I had a vision of this un-beckoned a few months ago...

It seemed to be saying...

When I look, I still see a tree (the state of our corporate/military world government)... but that tree was long ago dead... and so dead that the entire inside has now become putrefied and liquid with rot.

I understood the vision to be a sign tryint to tell me what to do next...

Later I had the thought, pick up a strong beam, position it just under the roots, and lift ... and the entire rotten structure will up-end.

(I still don't know exactly what the beam represents but the tree is pretty defined)

So, what we may be looking at may be far less formidable than we ever imagined… its appearance, like the Wizard in OZ, being all that is left... just an ability to still trick us into believing it has power.

And,

"But for a very small minority, most still believe the government. They have been trained to have faith. To trust. They are told some new politician is just around the corner that will make all this better. Have faith, we're making progress towards a new beginning."

if the corruption is actually easy to up-end (like seemed to be implied in that vision), maybe the people of this country are keeping silent but are not as fooled as they appear to be.

I believe every word they're saying, and they didn't place themselves in the situation.

Now, will the corporate mainstream media cover this?

Didn't hear anything about it on CNN radio all day today. They did keep me up to date on hockey and NBA scores, though. Like I really need to hear that crap in a four minute newscast.

JB Westwood,

I think your maturity shows great wisdom. Criminals belong in jail not on the government payroll. Unfortunately because gang members stick together we have lost the biggest opportunity to adjudicate the largest crime in history.

We bust dope pushers. We prosecute shoplifters. We jail prostitutes. Yet the most corrupt thugs in all of American history are free to punish the rest of us for decades to come?

But for a very small minority, most still believe the government. They have been trained to have faith. To trust. They are told some new politician is just around the corner that will make all this better. Have faith, we're making progress towards a new beginning.

I have no faith. I do not believe that anything will get better. We have rounded the corner. The problems are too deep, too widespread. We cannot make the amount of changes necessary quickly enough to save the day, much less the planet.

Think about the signals we have been getting and many of them have been flashing red for quite a long time and still the people are silent and unmoving.

This empires day is over. The core is rotten and the tree is dying. We had many chances to make it different but we were just too damn busy talking on the phone. I have no sympathy for foolish Americans. They have brought most of this on themselves. Now they are scrambling to find a way around the dangers.

Buckle up. The ride is going to get really bumpy.

This anti-war veteran organization should point blame where it belongs. Enlist Dennis Kucinich. and probably thousands like me and the above poster,"old civil behavior", to target Rep John Conyers/Nancy Pelosi in the start of impeachment procedures NOW before fall elections.

Repr Jon Olver (D-MA) last year told his angrily impatient constituents that impeachhment would bring a Bush attack on Iran. I'm also "old" and my reaction to that threat is "make it happen if Congress and the General Staff will agree"! The sheeple nation needs to test its crotch and get on with dispatching Bush/Cheney to their supposed Paraguayan refuge.

Everyone, at home and abroad, needs to see if Americans are up to an apology. Personally, I have later-in-life regrets about many things I did in more that 200 ground support fighter pilot missions in WWII and Korea.

We are not at war with Iraq, but with Iraq's poor.

Iraq was a US ally in the Middle East until it was decided to re-script its position as a 'rogue' nation. (Saddam requested permission BTW from the Bush administration before invading Kuwait.)

This is true of Iran as well. Did you know that Brezinski was in on the planning to take the 'hostages'? Did you know that Khomeini's first choices for hos top officials were Iranians who were also CIA operatives?

Demonizing populations is an art and it includes retraining those who are slated to be demonized so that they will portray easily identifiable negative stereotypes.

If you question this, remember, Saddam's government was secular initially and for years. Afghanistan's conversion to radical and nationalistic Islam was a program developed by British and American intelligence agencies working with Pakistani agencies, Saudis, etc.

" "I don't think Americans should single themselves out, thinking that they are the only country in the history of the world that ended up falling into the trap of resorting to these sorts of practices during a long drawn out military occupation.
Just in recent times:

French in Indonesia, and in Algeria
If we look at dictators as "occupying powers" then we could include the Shah of Iran, and countless military dictatorships in Latin America." "

Actually, it is the elephant in the room that everyone has failed to see.

_________

Once there was an elephant in a room...

And five blindfolded men were sent into the room, one at a time, to determine if they could correctly identify the type of animal it was...

The first entered and felt the tail... and proclaimed it was the regime of Hitler that was killing all the Jews… and wanted to control the whole world!

The second entered and felt the ears... and proclaimed it was the French and their colonial excesses in Indochina, Algeria, and elsewhere.

The third felt the trunk and proclaimed that it was the Japanese with their genocides of the Chinese in the thirties...

The fourth felt the legs and proclaimed that it was the English with their meddling all over the frikkin' place including India, the Americas of the thousands of Indian nations, Africa, etc.

The fifth felt the belly and said it was the US and its distrust of the communists that got it involved in continuing the war on all sovereign and indigenous communities and democratic expressions...

When the blindfolds were removed, men and women from every land realized that all these genocidal practices were part of the same operation; of a fully syndicated elitist corporate/military world order.

We are a one world elite-run corporate order. We were that even when the US was founded. The 'enemy' is reinvented for every generation so that the genocide will continue because the One World Order has no more brilliant thought than to keep everyone convinced that wars are necessary and consequently a way to 'organize' (control) everyone is required… and ways to insure that the enemy has not 'infiltrated' us… (so a surveillance society in the event that someone catches wind of how things are really working and against whom (the masses of non-elite) and tries to spill the beans so to speak)

Hmmm… what was the purpose of 9/11 again?

Remember, Saddam was an ally until he was tricked (yes, tricked) into invading Kuwait! As for his 'excesses' please lay the blame where it belongs, at the feet of the international secret services running his government for local and international show!

Also, please notice how integrated and well-coordinated military and corporate management of pre and post 9/11 events were. This is NOT an ad-hoc development. It is the stuff of government since long before you were born…

And the result (desired and planned) is war, genocidal war! How else to keep the masses defeated? And ALL war is against the common person! Control of nations is and has been a fait accompli for some centuries!

tech2 says:

"I don't think Americans should single themselves out, thinking that they are the only country in the history of the world that ended up falling into the trap of resorting to these sorts of practices during a long drawn out military occupation.
Just in recent times:
French in Indonesia, and in Algeria
If we look at dictators as "occupying powers" then we could include the Shah of Iran, and countless military dictatorships in Latin America."

Please, remember that every single one of those "countless military dictatorships in Latin America" has been supported and aided by the United States (and the Shah too).

US presidents and diplomats gave political support to Latin American right-wing military, US business financed them (and profited from it), US Army trained and armed them, and, more to the point, CIA operatives taught them "scientific" torture (they were already very well versed in the non-scientific, brute-force version). Our awful dictators were, in fact, just US puppets in the Cold War.

Back then, it was called "interrogation under duress", not yet "enhanced interrogation practices" or something like that. Sad to say, torture is not a new thing to the US. The difference, this time, is that it is closer to home, and your boys are doing it themselves, not outsorcing third-world thugs.

Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them. Weapons are the tools of fear; a decent man will avoid them except in the direst necessity and, if compelled, will use them only with the utmost restraint. Peace is his highest value. If the peace has been shattered, how can he be content? His enemies are not demons, but human beings like himself. He doesn't wish them personal harm. Nor does he rejoice in victory and delight in the slaughter of men? He enters a battle gravely, with sorrow and with great compassion, as if he were attending a funeral.

Unless I'm greatly mistaken, Kernel, most vegetarians and animal rights activists are also against war, and killing people in general, so I don't see the dichotomy you're alluding to.

The Hessians and Germans were real people. Those sub-humans of other skin tones need not apply.

After helping themselves to the food, shelter and probably the women of colonial NJ and PA, the Hessians in Trenton were pleasantly surprised when Washington and his rag tag army didn't kill them to a man, but managed to have them fed for the rest of the war. They probably would not have been so lucky in Europe.

As WWII closed, German officers fled to the west expecting Geneva Convention treatment and knowing what the Russians would probably do to them. (Of course, what the Germans had done to the Russians, Jews and others redefined the depths of evil.)

These should be the behavioral traditions of the American military. Not My Lai, random shootings and torture for sport. Accidents happen when you can't tell friend from foe, or in the middle of a firefight, but this goes way beyond that.

As counterpoint, there has been any number of stories on the networks and npr of soldiers helping Iraqi civilians and trying to make a difference in their lives.

Is there some nonuniformity of leadership? Or has the neocon hubris infected the officer corps? West Point is a great school, is all about honor, and its shocking that any Academy grad would tolerate such behavior.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were scalping some of their innocent victims as this is not much different than the army of the eighteen hundreds where viewing the enemy as less than a dog would be commonplace. Nothing's changed much since that time in the collective mind as killing seems more appropriate than any serious spiritual introspection. The seventh cavalry marches on and if not for the warmth of the sun the dead would still remain frozen on the battlefield or the killing fields as it were. And all of it for oil; material goods to empower the empire. And all of it in the face of the god that is called the prince of peace. It truly makes one wonder at the hypocrisy of the word of man and the religions they have established. It's a shame these 'Winter Soldiers' didn't have the balls or the moral compass to realize their wrongs before they were committed but better late than never in their case. It doesn't help their victims much though in this world save to free them from their persecution. Tortured souls all around and no sign from the heavens…

Currently there is no "Draft" with all enlistments being voluntary. The Bush Administraion has not and, at this time, probably will not reinstitute a draft as a way to provided the Military personell needed as the sabres rattle louder and the threats of war rapidly escalate. Because he(they) can soften the alarm often sounded over the wounded and slain in Iraq and Afganistan by simply stating, which they have done, "They volunteered to free the people of tyranny in Iraq and our Country of terrorists. These young men are our Heros". I am a Veteran of the Korean Era and our old Sergeants favorite phrase was, "The cemetery is full of Heros". Tour after tour after tour in active duty causes the odds to be greater in each instance that you will not come home, once again, safely. It is high time and proper for the soldiers to complain about the treatment of Vets and also the lowering of compensations for being on active duty. With the current talk of incresing the Military personell with "Felons" (avoiding Prison) could very well increase the instances of sadism mentioned in the above article.

My intent is not to divide and conquer. It is to provoke. Almost to the point of revolution. Tech you are right. There is no substitute better than what the Founding Fathers established as a document for governance.

One problem. We have strayed too far from it.

Here are some of my solutions. None of which have even half a chance of succeeding.

Deconstruct the military. Throughout my life I have seen nothing but anguish result from killing in the name of freedom or national security. It is a lie. A very costly one. The best defense we can have is a foreign policy that keeps our nose out of other nations business and lead by example not by the backside of a bomb. Use that 600+billion dollars for a national service corp and R&D into clean sustainable resourcing.

Outlaw lobbyists. That one is simple and the result would be powerful. Take them out of Washington. Do not allow staffers to have outside interests (which are all special interests) write the laws.

Rationing. Because of where we are today it is now time for rationing of our precious resources. Prices will not mitigate the disaster unfolding. The rich can still afford it. They are the most egregious users. They must be dealt with. Now.

Pay as you go. There should not be a system of spending on credit. It has become a ponzi scheme of gargantuan proportions. Bleeding us dry. This is a funnel to the top. It happens from the federal govt down to the common persons Visa card. Slaves to usury. A centuries old con.
Legalize pot. It is ridiculous that we are spending time, energy and money on fighting the least injurious vice. Bring it into the sunshine like CA has done with medical pot. I'm not advocating legalization of all drugs but pot needs to be grown and distributed outside of the shadows of the underground market.

Turn off your TV and when you watch it watch Free speech tv. Link tv and cspan.
I could outline more but it is creeping toward our Sunday breaksfast and I'm hungry. There is plenty more I could type and explain why and how these positions I take have a basis in what I believe to be an imminent need for radical change starting with provovcation because it seems to bet the only way you can rouse people to the challenge that we all face.

Trust me, I am the first one to advocate for Earth Community but I am also a loud proponent of busting up Empire. I'm the one who thinks we shold all wear bandanas to start to identify ourselves to each other and to the powers to be that we are many and they are few and we mean business.
The more I read, the more aware I am that our time is short to mitigate the damages that have been brought to bear. This is a planet. You don't just patch it up to fix it. The greatest mother of all times is sending signals. We aren't listening. And it concerns all of the things that our republic has done to the web of life on this what we call home.

I live in West Palm Beach. Anyone here want to join me in the "revolution"?

War is hell-on-earth and anyone who describes it differently is a fool.

tech2, This country is too big. Why do you think people call it an empire? Vermont please take the Lead and Secede.

Civil Behaviour,
Your language sounds revolutionary. Do you really think America is in a position where a revolution is necessary??

You already have a well thought out constitution and a congress designed to give the voters great powers. What could you possibly replace it with that would be any better? That is without resorting to the same sorts of fantasy land Utopian concepts that mankind has talked about over the centuries.

Maybe your government has just made a mistake. Big powerful country, big mistakes. The poor soldiers testifying before congress, telling of the unimaginable stresses they have beens subjected to is the fallout.
These poor boys are "where the buck stopped." They along with their victims are paying the price.

So now that the mistake is obvious, and its ulimate result is staring the entire world in the face - what do you do about it? How do you recover from this mess? The fact that it has now happened twice (Vietnam, and now Iraq, points to a more fundemental questions to be asked.)

When I read about the Chicago city council making resolutions about the Iraq War, I just listen in amazement... That sort of thing sound pretty cool, very gutsy, very American. I can't imagine any other country doing such a thing. Such an act points to an underlying belief that the individual citizen has power. That is a great example to the world.

Maybe your country is so big, change takes a long time, and therefore requires more perseverance.

"I watched part of that hearing.

It was a perfect example of how utterly disconnected the members of Congress are from the leaders of a very important movement."

"This is a dog and pony show in DC. It must stop."

I saw the same things in Washington in the early seventies when I was a Vietnam War protestor.

Up until then, I had some faith in the electoral process... later I would discover that our government is a complete sham. Who in Washington admitted that the twin towers were imploded? Does that tell you anything? Congressional representatives and their staffs are paid to deceive us... and that is all there is to it.

These hearings are to placate the restless masses... nothing more. They have NEVER had anything whatsoever to do with affecting policy and ALL members of congress know this.

The USA is a non-sovereign corporate military dictatorship, it began that way and continues to this day... with a congress and a fake president to disguise blatant and rapacious totalitarianism.

Are there crimes being committed? You bet, continuously!

And these crimes are basically two: deception and violence (genocidal violence that is, the kind that every empire since the dawn of military society has been engaged in.)

The answer is NOT in the political process. The answer is in a making a rediscovery about human nature. http://allinharmony.org

Because ALL military orders have depended to the ability to desensitize people (namely its would be soldiers) so that they could be used to commit genocide... and the first part of the conditioning process was to disconnect them from their own natures (wise and compassionate) and from the rest of nature by getting them to violate the most fundamental aspect of ecological interaction, what we ingest.

Sounds strange, random, improbable… but it is fact. Humans are natural herbivores with NO instinct to kill! http://allinharmony.org

Cultural indoctrination has completely transformed humans into disconnected and ecologically insane creatures, capable of killing on order or by programmed triggers.

Wars CAN only END when the facts of human nature are understood (and why these facts have been obscured and hidden consistently throughout history by the elite rulers in all military societies).

It is interesting that many articles and posts in Common Dreams rave about the evil of killing animals for food, and then we read others that are all about war and the need for having guns to protect ourselves by killing people. One gets the impression that people`s lives are not as important as animals.

I believe a rifle or shotgun is appropriate for any home if well cared for and safety measures taken, but what on earth does anyone need an assault weapon for except to kill humans or elephants? I do not think the 2nd amendment visualized automatic machine guns as being necessary to own.

David, a rifle is the only thing keeping you free, and I don't mean from the iraqis. I would think after eight years of Bush you lefties had become more sympathetic to our precious freedom to own firearms. They are the ultimate democratic instrument.

Of course this awful war is producing awfulness. Of course its spreading to our troops. They see wickedness every single day and its only a matter of time before they respond like this. The men who are speaking out like this are true heroes.

There's only one solution here, pull all our troops out right away, and let the iraqis kill each other!

The horror of war and what humanity does to humanity in war is brought home to those who serve. This is why those who serve are so often reluctant to engage -- except as a last resort.

Leaders like Bush, Cheney who dodged or blocked thier own service are all to eager to engage because they are clueless to war's realities. And since Bush and Cheney and the other members of this club of horror use other people's children for war -- they don't give a damn.

What too much of America fails to grip is that it is not that Bush and Cheney don't get it. It's that they want it -- ALL of it and everything for themselves and their friends. While most American's are bent over picking up the pennies -- these human criminals are picking America's pocket.

civil behavior,

You said it very well and I'm with you in this ongoing battle.

Well, the debate between Arvy and CB is an important one. Following WW2, much of the left became utterly demoralized and blamed the "world public"; much of the attention of scholars focused on the ways in which bourgeois governments gained the consent of the ruled; Marxism, with its belief in the masses attaining "class consciousness," fell out of favor, in favor of closed, totalitarian systems in which even protest and dissension was used to strengthen bourgeois regimes (e.g. Foucault, de Certeau, Bakhtin et al); or else, the rise of postmodern identity micro-politics.

I come down of the side of Arvy: we just cannot give up on mankind, there are certainly millions out there who are not happy with the state of things and are doing what they can to resist.

Good grief, CB, how could you possibly construe my comment as supporting the war machine? I was merely questioning your very broad assertion (overly broad IMO) about the "world public" having capitulated.

I can certainly understand your outrage and I share it in large measure, but we ourselves need to exercise some of that self-disipline if we hope to express it effectively and not alienate those who may well be our best allies.

Measures?

At this point nothing short of self imposed discipline. That is the highest price commodity in todays "free" marketplace. Supply is nonexistent and demand is off the charts.

We've chained ourselves as cheap chattel to an empire of worthless paper buying the worlds resources and opinions through the use of ilitary force as though the expansion of economic success is mans greatest "measure" and we are somehow entitled.

Change the measure. Change the man. But first and foremost the need for self discipline. Reject Empire. Choose Earth Community.

Your assessment that other "representative" govts are not much better? Exactly, which is why the worlds public is responsible. No one wants to own up to the failure of the system because each of them has had a mighty hand in its demise.

Enter 2004 and morally dubious nationalism. Connect the dots and you'll see a familiar scenario playing out today.

Do you support the war machine? For what noble cause? What purpose? Killing for freedom is a lie. Killing for energy is worse.

So?
Where do I buy some self discipline?

civil behavior May 17th, 2008 9:15 pm -- "Even the world public has capitulated."

Hmmmm. That might be just a little too broadly stated if one accepts the fact that so-called "representative" governments elsewhere aren't always any more truly representative of their citizenry than is the U.S. government. Besides, what measures would you suggest that the "world public" take when the U.S. president dismisses your own protests as mere "focus group" commentary and then gets elected for a second term?

I listened to these soldiers speak about their experiences and this makes the Hillary vote to go to war so wrong: she did this because as a woman she has to prove how tough she is and she would have endorsed any war! She refused to read the intelligence report because she had made up her mind without the facts. She then required 4 years to admit she had been wrong. We do not need this type of leadership when we have a skilled, smart man with good values OBAMA.

Bill BRG,

I am not, I repeat not, some sit-at-home armchair guerrilla. My reputation in this community is and will continue to be one of the most outspoken, unafraid and knowledegable of the issues that are affecting this troubled, verging on imploding nation.

Your resistance is to be applauded. Do not discount the possibility that others have been as active.

I do not and will not allow any congressperson, male or female, to be so ignorant of the name of a figurehead in a very visible position of an opposition movement that is probably more important than most of what these congress members do in a years worth of governing without pointing it out as another example of the level of disconnect congress members exhibit. "Progressive Caucas" included. The soldiers testimony was riveting. Woolsey's response to it was casual deference.

I no longer allow any small or large oversight to escape my wrath. I am old. I am tired. I am pissed. We have been fighting these battles for years. I participated in these battles in the 60's and early 70's, war, civil rights, women's rights, gay and others. We have allowed ourselves to be lulled into believing Empire has had our best interest in mind as long as we remain polite. Look where that has gotten us. We have been "media"cated into somnambulance.

No more. I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. It cannot be accomplished within the system. The system is broken. I make no excuses for my anger. This world belongs to all of us. An ever increasing, egregious, greedy politico has usurped the earth community and they have no intention of changing their ways until we hold their feet to the fire. All the time, for everything. Even at that we are probably destined for elimination.

My disgust covers all of them anymore. One exception.

Even the world public has capitulated. This is beyond republicans and democrats. This is about abdicating individual conscience for a morally dubious nationalism.
No need to lecture this elder. I've been there. There is no room left for civility until the empire has fallen.

Times have drastically changed. Different methods are necessary. You don't need to join me in my disgust, my vote of no confidence, my desire for a complete and thorough washing of the halls of power. Throw them all out but one. Russ Feingold. All the rest can go.

They have sold this nation to the highest bidder. And they don't care. I reject them and their empire. It's all show, every hearing, every committee, every meeting, every report. They lie, we die. Katrina was enough to break the very last of what civil behavior I had left. The plutocratic militaristic oligarchy knows exactly what they've done and what they plan to do next and to my dying breath I will hold them accountable for every single action they take that continues the Empire unlike this do nothing congress. Sorry Bill,they get nothing from me anymore but scorn.

It's the nature of war. I remember debating a right-wing lunatic in a political online forum, before the US invaded Iraq. He went on and on about the "nobleness" of the cause and the moral "uprightness" of the American military. I told him candidly: this war will mean widespread and systematic massacres, rapes, tortures, and looting. He scoffed. As the reports began to trickle in, he disappeared. I just can't get over the fact that it's now the 21st century, and people still live with their heads in the sand. Only children can afford to be innocent.

What else would you expect from a country that is run by the NRA, a country where arsenals of weapons for killing are found in every home.

America is sick. The gun is its symbol. It profits from killing.

P.S. Should McCain wear a coonskin cap? Check my blog for details.

Civil behavior- is that that civility of the Ante Bellum South?

You want to see a dog and pony show? Go to the DOD hearings on mental health, the VA witnesses and lawyers in Veterans for Common Sense v. Peak, etc. I was there.

Having met more resisters and worked on more resister events than you have attended or read about, your petty criticism of mispronouncing someone's name or not knowing who Adam Kokesh is is very close to irrelevant and seems to be disingenous.

There's a war/occupation that was perpetrated on Iraq and this country. The treasury's being pillaged, the harm done here and abroad severe and your misdirected criticism doesn't hold water. The members of congress who are in a bubble don't include the Progressive Caucus. Try the vast majority of Republicans, many Democrats, including the DLC and Blue Dog Democrats.

civil behavior, it's a start at least. I listened to most of the testimony, www.pacifica.org and was very moved, both angered and saddened.

I watched part of that hearing.

It was a perfect example of how utterly disconnected the members of Congress are from the leaders of a very important movement.

The very chairman of the caucas wasn't able to pronounce Adam Kokesh's last name. Adam has been on the forefront of the IVAW movement. I've heard his name mentioned in several venues more than a dozen times.

She'd never heard his name before. She didn't know him at all. One of the more visible and outstanding leaders of an organization of veterans against the war and she had obviously never heard his name.

What does that tell you?

I'll tell you what it tells me. It tells me these people in Congress are clueless and actually could care less what happens outside of their bubble. They are going to do whatever they want and please to do because they are totally disconnected from what is taking place out here. They don't know. What they do is all for show. They have no clue.

If she had read anything or been listening to anything outside of MSM or staffers briefs which are also out of touch with the outside world she would have known how to pronounce his last name.

The chairman did not know how to pronounce a mans name who has been highly, visibly engaged in bringing attention to himself and their organization in order to try and stop the war after having served in it and she didn't know his name. That should speak volumes to each of us.

This is a dog and pony show in DC. It must stop.

We need our good intentions..let's just get off our fat asses and DO something......IF it's not too late!

We need to oppose torture and war, not just in our minds and morals, but in actions EVERYDAY. Be it big or small, we need to do something, keep doing things, and get others to do things as well.

Get off your good intentions and help stop this insanity/immorality!

If you feel like you are drowning, you are.

George the second hanged Saddam Hussein (by proxy). The result...he took Saddam's place as a killer and torturer of Iraqis on an even more massive scale. Some call for Bush's similar extermination. Do it and I assure you, you will take his place. Violence breeds more of the same. I pray for his enlightenment while simultaneously rousing my own body, speech and mind to the practice of virtue. Perhaps George will follow my example...I don't know...it could happen. I do know that if George were to wake up enlightened tomorrow morning, the result would be 1000 times more powerful then any violence we could commit on his person. So far, no luck...but I remain hopeful.

What do the people who run America care about atrocities or making war criminals of our young men and women? Absolutely nothing!
How I wish the tyrants-in-charge would move themselves and their lackies to Jerusalem where they belong.

tech2 May 17th, 2008 2:54 pm -- "The only reason I can see for such shock over revelations like this is that Americans think they are so different, and to be faced with the fact that maybe Americans are just like everyone else that has lived on this planet, and subject to the same faults… that really is hard to take."

You said a mouthful brother/sister. Unfortunately, that USan "exceptionalism" translates into an awe approaching reverence for the authoritarian institutions and symbols that are, all too often, confused with nationhood itself.

I doubt, for example, that any erstwhile European monarch, not excluding George III of England, could ever have dreamed of the unfettered sovereign power that USans have invested in the institution of their presidency. And it seems quite unlikely that that investiture will ever be reversed in any (bloodless) revolution against tyranny today. To the contrary, many USans seem to consider such imperial presidential authority to be quite consistent with what they regard as their appropriate position on the world stage, little appreciating its corrupt and corrupting influence on their own lives.

Reps. Woolsey, Waters and Lee, Aaron Glantz and members of the Armed Services who testified, thank you, that does not seem adequate but please know that I am grateful for your courage and am hoping that the members of Congress who can stop this nightmare will, by stopping the funding this minute, bring all US Personnel home, in addition to those Iraqi People who want to come with the Armed Forces and design a plan that reimburses the Iraqi people for the damage done to their homeland and assists them with the immense work of recuperating from this dreadful nightmare.

I don't think Americans should single themselves out, thinking that they are the only country in the history of the world that ended up falling into the trap of resorting to these sorts of practices during a long drawn out military occupation.

Just in recent times:
French in Indonesia, and in Algeria
If we look at dictators as "occupying powers" then we could include the Shah of Iran, and countless military dictatorships in Latin America.

Japanese occupation of China in WWII, the German occupation of Europe in WWII (anyone know the story of the little village of Lidice?)

Going back further is easy, but given America's close parralel with the Roman Empire - how about the techniques of Rome for keeping the locals in line - publicly crucify political enemies and you can keep the empire going for several hundred years easy.

After all, is this not why so many veterans throughout history come back from wars hating it all so much, and being scarred for life.
This is not something America invented. Its just something that mankind does when it goes to war.

The only reason I can see for such shock over revelations like this is that Americans think they are so different, and to be faced with the fact that maybe Americans are just like everyone else that has lived on this planet, and subject to the same faults... that really is hard to take.

Namaste,

thanks for your very powerful post. Helps us understand why they destroyed those torture tapes.

Less than one mile away, contractors for Lockheed Martin and Northrup are out on this fine Saturday buying supplies and food for their families.
If you ask some of them they'll remind us of how "they got us" on 9/11, "that's what this is all about, if we don't get them, they'll get us."
Ignorance is bliss, and there is strong evidence that this survival mechanism keeps people healthier. The War of Terror continues to be such a natural cathartically entrenched mechanism, one would come away convinced that we really do know ourselves quite well and how to control large groups of people with fear.
McCain's speeches this week were elemental, pure in their appeal. Similar to Lil'Busch leaning over his podium, drawling on about the annihilation of bad guys.

political.. they dont really care about a few "enlisted" whistleblowers concerns.. not in a systemic way. this is a zero-gain regarding policy shift. it is however, illustrative of certain USmilitarymindsets/culturalcharacterweaknesses. it is this unhealthy psyche, manifest through posting kill-pics on myspace, etc., that resulted in the complete loss of the cultural-system battle in iraq. what its called people, is shittay administration from fukhead leaders top-2-bottom. the victims are we-all, culturally. they were so bad at leading us, we (our cultures) lose.. on so many levels.. thats what these vets have taught us.

The hope is that the testimony of these veterans will not have been in vain. The only way to make sure that no more atrocities will be committed against Iraqis and Afghanis is to remove all U.S. troops from those countries as quickly and as rapidly as possible. Members of congress may wish to ask themselves how they would feel if foreign soldiers were kicking down their doors or having a five hundred pound bomb being dropped down on their homes. Financial reparations should also be paid to the members of the Iraqis and Afghanis families who have lost their loved ones to American bullets and bombs.

I praise and honor these veterans who have the courage to speak the truth to power regardless of what the consequences will be for them. We need more truth tellers. George W. should be made to sit through these hearings, as well as Cheyney, Rumsfeld and all of the other war criminals who are responsible for this horrible tragedy.

yeah bane. maybe tru. elemental, if peeps MUST be fear-based. were we so fearful before the dozen guys with boxcutters attacked us on 911? or were we just culturally empty-enough to follow-the-leaders into bush fear policy (the so-called "the war on terror") to hit iraq. but the same fear-mentality, enlisteds poppin civilians for kill-pics while superiors smile included, is WHY we lost iraq. we shouldnt have entered the war if our leaders didnt have the cultural integrity to win the real battle overseas.