Hey Jewkins,

Jewbacca was not banned and nobody told you you could not say any foolish thing you want.

We want this war to End.... what do you want?

Now I never called you a Chicken Hawk, though you sound like a jerk because you imply Helen is one.

Do you think you are helping Israel by not caring about them not having any friends...why is it that they don't?

A chicken Hawk is someone who pushes and excuses war for others to fight the war and if you don't, then tell me what you are for.

I also think with Phony names like Jewbacca and Jewkins you guys are just here to make Jews look like nut Jobs and you are doing a hell of a job!

Work for peace if you don't want to be a Chicken Hawk, it is that simple.

Yes, at least you know times do change because War used to be popular, but the world has more important things to do these days.

Oh the times they are a changin...

I think we can agree on that.

No wonder George Bush is so "popular." I'm so glad I understand now. He sides with Israel all the time no matter what.

lillulu, no, I was just saying that popularity is no judge of morality or rightness. I would think you "progressives" would understand this more then anyone.

My, how things change.

Leeroy, so if people don't have many friends other than their own exclusive little group, and they are not popular, I guess that means they must be doing something right. Is that what your message is?

Gee, that really makes sense.

Jim, another thing, jews weren't put here to have friends and be popular, we are here to challenge whatever the reigning lies are. And right now, a lot of the reigning lies surround israel.

Jim, I;m responding for bacca, since he seems to have been banned.

I'm the chickenhawk? Why does that label never get put on, for example Nahida here, who is the Helen Thomas thread claimed "Israel has no right to exist as a political system or a nation, period."? Why is she not a chickenhawk for not being over there killing jewish people?

I am committed to saying what I feel is true, and censorship and insults will not stop me.

More on this later.

Thanks nahida for the video.

We can see for ourselves what democracy is like in Israel now.

I still have hope that things will change for the better.

Jewbacca,

You sound like a classic "Chicken Hawk".
It is so easy for you to talk tough and encourage war with Arabs when you are not in Israel.
Every Jewish voice for peace you put down ... What friends do you and your zionist chicken hawks have left in the world?

Can you name us some?

Here is another Israeli voice for peace, Israeli historian Ilan Pappe reflects upon the events of 1948 and how they led to 60 years of division between the Israelis and Palestinians" http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5C0036C5-83C9-4720-853D-0BFA9A4E1BC4.htm .... who unlike you, does have Friends in this World.

Arabs have good morals when it comes to sex. They keep men and women separate. They don't make pornographic movies in Hollywood and then distribute them worldwide and corrupt young people's morals. You've got to respect that.

I've heard that Bedouin Arabs are very hospitable to travelers and give them food and a place to sleep, and they don't expect money from the stranger. Money isn't #1 with them.

"He called for political changes that bring competitive, legitimate elections where leaders are held to account..."

In the US?

Bush encourages the hatred of Muslims. I bet this soldier figured that he was doing the right thing because he saw himself as fighting the Muslim threat. I wonder how long it will take before he is picked up by Blackwater:

U.S. soldier uses Qur'an for target practice

BAGHDAD -- An American soldier used a Qur'an, the Islamic holy book, for target practice in a predominantly Sunni area west of Baghdad, prompting an apology from the U.S. military, a spokesman said Sunday.

Iraqi police found the bullet-riddled Qur'an with graffiti inside the cover on a small-arms range near a police station in Radwaniyah, a former insurgent stronghold west of Baghdad, U.S. military spokesman Col. Bill Buckner said in an e-mailed response to a query.

American commanders then launched an inquiry that led to disciplinary action against the soldier, who has been removed from Iraq, Buckner said.

The shooting, which occurred May 9 and was discovered two days later, threatened to further strain relations between the Americans and Sunni allies who have joined forces with them against al Qaeda in Iraq in Radwaniyah and other areas. ...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080518/iraq_quran_080518/20080518?hub=TopStories

Arabs are good looking; dark and handsome. They have beautiful dark eyes.

Dura: Do you guys always do the "I bet jewbacca wants to kill all the arabs" thing just to hear me deny it over and over? Does this make you feel better about me? I DO NOT WANT TO DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT! So stop saying it.

Uri Avnery isn't a "self hating jew", he's a self deceiving jew. No one in their right mind supports Bush, however, when he comes to Israel and expresses support, suck it up and deal with it. Say thanks, and move on. It's just not right to slap in the face someone who is supporting you, especially when they seemingly get nothing out of it. Bush still isn't popular with any segment of the american population, lease of all jews, and this isn't going to change it. If anything, he's trying to prop up McCain with this crap.

Israel needs american support, so unless Avnery wants to tell me how israel is going to take on the entire arab world with no arms stockpile or UN support, he needs to deal with people like Mr. Bush. He certainly won't have to deal with him for much longer.

Israeli military superiority is not "unusable". Its the reason there still is an israel.

Mike, yes, if only the jews didn't hurt people, we'd have no enemies.

Let's all sing cumbaya now!

This kind of view is exactly what led us to disaster in WWII, and you can forget (most) jews ever going back to it. What all of you historical revisionists seem to miss, is that anti-semtism was WORSE when jews took exactly the path that MikePeters here would have us take, which I take it is to simply let the arabs and whoever else walk all over us.

Much better to be hated for a good reason then no reason, and always much better to fight back, if the hate is coming anyway, and it surely is.

Just to make Jewbacca's baccy taste like what it is - chewbaccy:
"
Uri Avnery
17.5.08

With Friends Like These…

LATELY WE are flooded with friends. The Great of the Earth, past and present, come here to flatter us, to fawn on us, to grovel at our feet.

"God, save me from my friends, my enemies I can deal with myself!" says an old prayer.

They disgust me.

LET'S TAKE for example the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, who made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Her pandering was free of any criticism and she reached new heights of obsequiousness in her speech to the Knesset. I was invited to attend. I relinquished the privilege.

I shall also pass the pleasure when I am invited to the session with the hyper-active Nicholas Sarkozy, who will try to break the flattery record of his German rival.

Before that we were visited by John McCain's mentor, the evangelical pastor John Hagee, the one who described the Catholic Church as a monster. Oozing sanctimonious flattery from every pore, he forbade us, in the name of (his) God, to give up even one inch of the Holy Land and commanded us to fight to the last drop of (our) blood.

However, not one of them has come close to George Bush. Approaching the end of the most disastrous presidency in the annals of the Republic, he really forced a lighted match into the hand of our government, encouraging it to ignite the barrel of gunpowder between our feet.

BUT THE list of present-day leaders who participate in the pandering competition pales in comparison with the long parade of Has-Beens who lay siege to our gates.

A world-wide swarm of Has-Beens is flying from place to place like bees, all for one and one for all. This week they alighted in Jerusalem, on the invitation of Has-Been No. 1: Shimon Peres, a politician who in all the 84 years of his life has never won an election, and who was finally handed, out of sheer compassion, the largely meaningless title of President of Israel.

The common denominator of this group is that their prestige at home is close to nil, while their standing abroad is sky-high. Their mutual adoration compensates them for the lack of respect in their own countries.

One of the senior members of this club is Tony Blair, who has been pushed from power in his own country but is not content to enjoy his pension and raise roses. As a consolation prize he has been granted the pleasure of playing around with our conflict. Every few weeks he convenes a press conference to present the good tidings of his phenomenal success in ameliorating the lot of the Palestinians, while the actual situation in the occupied territories goes from bad to worse. Our security establishment treats him like a bore who has to be thrown a crumb from time to time to keep him happy.

In the conference that took place this week there were also some good people, but the scene was stolen by the Has-Beens, from the retired war criminal Henry Kissinger to the dethroned peace hero Mikhail Gorbachev (whom I still consider a hero for preventing bloodshed during the collapse of the Soviet empire.) Pity to see him in this company.

All the participants in this orgy heaped mountains of fawning adulation on Israel. Not one of them had a word of criticism. No occupation. No settlements. No Gaza blockade. No daily killings. Just a wonderful, peace-loving state that the bad, bad terrorists want to throw into the sea.

Not one of the guests stood up to warn us against going on with the present policy. Not one of them stood up to proclaim the truth: that the continuation of this policy may lead our state to disaster.

He who has friends like these has no need for enemies. A person who sees his friend playing Russian roulette and offers him bullets - is he a real friend? One who sees his friend standing on the brink of an abyss and tells him "go ahead" - is he a friend?

AMONG THE fraternity of flatterers, the ones that attracted the most attention were the Jewish billionaires from America (who also paid for the extravaganza).

Several of them were summoned to police headquarters immediately on arrival to give evidence on the affair that is rocking Israel now - the corruption investigation of Ehud Olmert.

A smell of corruption has accompanied Olmert right from his beginnings in politics, 45 years ago. But this time, the smell is overpowering. The police has made it known that the American-Jewish billionaire Moshe Morris Talansky has been supplying him with cash-filled envelopes for years.

Where have we seen this before? Of course, in American movies and TV-series. Somebody opens a suitcase stuffed with bundles of banknotes. The donor invariably belongs to the Mafia, and the recipient is generally a corrupt politician. Can it be that Olmert has never seen these films - he of all people, who started his career with demagogic speeches denouncing "Organized Crime"?

But it is not Olmert who interests me in this affair so much as Talansky.

He belongs to a species of "Israel-loving" billionaires, most of them resident in the US, but also in Canada and Switzerland, Austria and Australia and other places.

They are all Israeli patriots. They are all philanthropists. All contribute millions to Israeli politicians. And almost all of them support our extreme Right.

What makes them run? What induces these billionaires to do what they are doing?

A research in depth discovers that a great many of them made their money in dark corners. Some are gambling barons, casino-owners with all the inevitable connections with violence, crime and exploitation. One at least made his fortunes from brothels. Another was involved in a scandal involving old people's homes. Yet another is a scion of a family who made their money bootlegging during prohibition days. Some are arms merchants of the most despicable kind, selling weapons to the political gangs which sow death and destruction in Africa.

But money, as is well known, does not smell.

Most of the multi-millionaires of this kind feel that they are not receiving the honor due to them. Their co-billionaires, high society people, treat them with disdain. A person reaching this position is not satisfied with money alone. He craves honor. Such honor can be bought in Israel, on the cheap.

Israel is selling honor of all kinds, no questions asked. For a suitable donation, even a gambling-hell owner will be received by the Prime Minister, dine with the President, put his name on a university building.

(Once I wrote a light-hearted piece about the Third Temple, may God build it soon, Amen: the Rosenstein Holy of Holiest, the Rosenzweig altar, the Rosenberg cherubim, etc.)

Just after the Six-day War, during the great days of our generals, a new fashion spread among the best Jewish billionaires: to keep an Israeli general, in order to present him to friends as a pet. Some generals found no fault in this. It was owed to them, after all.

One billionaire kept Ezer Weizman, the Air Force hero (who had to resign from the presidency when it came out). Two billionaires adopted Ariel Sharon and set him up in the largest farm in the country. Shimon Peres was no general (and not even a soldier), but at least three billionaires took him under their golden wings.

No billionaire ever lost money by keeping an Israeli general, supporting an Israeli politician or making a generous donation to an Israeli cause. Ego is ego, patriotism is patriotism, but business is business.

That's where the corruption set in. A person who donates millions to a politician in Israel (or, for that matter, the US, or Italy or any other place on the globe) knows full well that he will get it back with interest. When the politician becomes a minister, or Prime Minister, or President, the supporter has hit the jackpot.

In politics there is no innocent donation. One way or another, the donor will reap his reward - many times over. That's true in the US, that's true in Italy, that's true in Israel, too. If the donor declares to the police that he has no business interests in Israel, all it means is that they must dig deeper.

THE OLMERT affair confirms anew what we have known for a long time: the fuel Israeli politics runs on is not just money, but money from abroad. To win primaries and campaign in elections, a candidate needs millions, and these almost always come from foreign donors.

Foreign billionaires financed Olmert in the party primaries, and they financed him in the general elections, in which he was assured of becoming Prime Minister. After being elected, he started Lebanon War II, with all its death and destruction. It can be said: American Jewish billionaires killed the soldiers and civilians, Israeli and Lebanese, who lost their lives in the war.

In his speech to the Jerusalem conference, Shimon Peres lauded Israeli chutzpa. What we need is more chutzpa, he said. That sounded fetching and naughty, but was pure poppycock.

I want to speak about another chutzpa. Not metaphorical, but real. Simple chutzpa. The chutzpa of billionaires in New York and Geneva and all the other places who interfere in our elections and determine the fate of our nation. The chutzpa of donating for a war in which not their sons, but ours, are killed. The chutzpa of sending billions for the establishment of settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories, and especially in Jerusalem, which are put there for the express purpose of preventing peace and imposing on us a permanent war, a war that threatens our future - not theirs.

Let's be clear: I am not criticizing well-meaning donors, who feel a moral need to contribute to a hospital wing or a university building in Israel. I appreciate people who send a few hundred dollars to a political cause close to their heart. I object to foreign billionaires who aspire to dictate the direction of our state.

Perhaps in other countries, too, politicians receive donations from foreign sources. But it is generally a marginal phenomenon. Here it is a major factor.

That is one of the ill effects of the definition of Israel as a "Jewish State". Because of this, these donors do not look like what they are - impertinent foreigners who interfere in our lives and corrupt our state - but like "warmhearted Jews" who support a state that belongs to them as well.

Gideon Levy has recently written an article in which he begged them to "leave us alone". Being a less refined person than he, I shall say this in a ruder way: Go home and take your money with you. We are not for sale. Stop trying to manage our life (and death)!
"

Now, I expect Jewbacca to say either that Uri Avnery is anti-Semitic or a self-hating Jew; I expect him to say the same thing about Gideon Levy. I expect him to say that about me. In short, I expect him to say that about anyone who has a different perspective to his stock Zionista drivel.

And in the meantime the lowlifes buy their respectability from the Israeli establishment - and in supporting Israel as blindly and unswervingly as he does, Jewbacca ends up paying for them laughing all the way to the bank.

I can't think of anything more anti-Semitic, more Jew-hating than that - selling the hopes of freedom from fear, the hope of "national" normality, for the pottage of a terminally unusable military "superiority".

Which links are you talking about jewbacca? And why haven't you replied to the last thing I wrote you on this thread? Did you not like to read what you have written?

angel, you are right, because if jews didn't fight the arabs, they'd all be dead!

I suppose dead people have no enemies.

I have seen films and read about the Jews mowing down and killing Arabs destroying their homes, cutting down their olive trees, thus their lively hood, than when one is left, they claim that he tied bombs to his body and walked into the marketplace, so he could have so many virgins in heaven when he blew himself to bits.

Also I learn that my tax dollars are going to fortify the Isrealie Bulldozers.

Jesus was a Jew, He said; "Love your enemys." "Do good to those who hate you." If the Jews did that, they wouldn't have enemys, or terriorest for long.

Skippy read those links.

well said Mr. Glover.

I think the peace song says it best.

I don't think in my opinion most Jews think they are chosen as "favorites".... maybe someone should do a survey and take a poll but that would be hard to poll those who don't go to Temple regularly....

I think we have been thought of as "chosen" more as Scape Goats for the World's troubles..... while some of the Zionists like to Boost and think they have God's instruction and permission to Kill for a home land in Israel like they interpret the Bible, most Jews in my opinion are not into that kind of Illusion.

You are free to blame all Jews for the policies of Israel if that gets you off.

We might also blame ourselves for allowing the USA to use Israel for its own purposes and cause more war around the world for the benefit of the few...and the profits of the War Machine.

In America many have that same idea of "we know what is best and will kill for spreading democracy", but maybe the world hates us for that too, Ya think?
The defense mechanism of Supremacy is not just found in the Bible alone... Doesn't Imperialism, Capitalism and Socialism and most ideologies put themselves out as the "supreme Answer"?

Maybe we all are Chosen, in fact don't you ever wonder of all the infinite matter in the infinite universe of infinite time and space you are here now asking these questions and giving your opinions at the most recent stage of our little planet?

Actually I think we are all "Chosen" to be alive at this "Chosen" time in Space...now it is up to us to figure out what we have been chosen for...... or maybe not.

Maybe it is easier to put the blame somewhere else, but does blame really fix anything when we have to change so many things to get along?

Shalom

Ahuramazda;

Perhaps the Quran might shed some light on 'the Jewish god'? What did Muhammed (PBUH) have to say about that subject again? Oh, that's right he said that There is no God but God. The Jewish God is Allah.
Silly me having to remind a selfproclaimed muslim that the Jews, Christians and Muslims are said to be the 'peoples of the book'...

Even though the pope still can't count...

The Americans buying into the lie that Jewish people are "God's favorite" and experts on morality, theology, and reality perception is one reason the USA Government gives Israel weapons and money

Jews are the "chosen people" because Yahweh (the Jewish God) supposedly says so. Since it common knowledge that basically 20% of the world population, mostly from "the West," buys into the lie that the Jewish God is the only true God, and that Jewish people are the only true experts in reality perception, the Jews must be believed for all they say and they are always innocent victims. Maybe Jews deserved being the "slave race." After all most empires in the "known world" Millennia ago had the Jews as slaves. Having Jewish people as slaves was not unique to Egypt.

God chose Jews to do what? I am not sure. I guess to be the bearers of THEIR "truth" (the supposed only truth in the world...all other philosophical thought is false except the Jewish one) that unfortunately roughly 20% of the world buys into.

People speak of anti-semitism like it is a bad thing. Considering that Judaism and Christianity has an even longer history of mass murder conquest, and terrorism than Islam does, anti-semitism may perhaps be an appropriate response to Israel's BS. Both Jews and Christians, again so do Muslims, but ummmm...they have a shorter History of this than the former two, continue to commit religious persecutions in "the West" while being critical of Muslims for doing the same thing. For example, look what the IDF did to a gathering of homosexuals last year for Tel Aviv's first annual GLBT pride festival. Put it this way, there probably will not anymore GLBT pride festivals in Tel Aviv for a long time to come.

Thanks. you all who have made this a very informative discussion on all sides.
I think you will enjoy a song of peace...

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/81.html

Mike Peters, ..... uh, I think we are still trying to figure that one out.
Shalom

Thanks Nahida,

How much more diplomatic can Israel get?.

It seems there has always been a few "Self Hating Jews" to blow their cover.

Thanks Nahida,

Keep Scrolling!

Jewbacca,

So if you know so much about the Arab Cause, and you want peace why not let us in on your knowledge?

It better be something we haven't already hashed out or I must say you are doing more on this public forum to make the world hate Israel and Jews more than ever..... so it better be good.

hahahahaha 7.5 million refugees?

That's more then ten times the total that supposedly left in the first place!

You arabs are truly stupid, but those who are MORE stupid are those westerners who actually go along with this silly nonsense. And why do you want to return to "racist, apartied" israel in the first place? The second it becomes majority arab, you can forget about ANY democracy or any of the better aspects of the country still existing.

Like those idiots who run out of mexico, thenclaim they want the part of the US they live in to BE mexico!

Nahidia, stop scrolling.

Jim, yea, that all sounds great, but it takes two to tango. I can assure you I am ten thousand times more likely to accept peace then any member of hamas, the prc's etc etc etc, and the average palestinian.

I would love to buy into your happy view, but I know too much about the arab cause and what they are fighting for to be fooled. I wish I could tell you something better then this, but I can't.

This is reality.

OK major hutton, Jewbacca, and massud,

We all have heard both sides of this war for 60 years now.

You claim Israel has always been ready for peace..... Is it ready to negotiate with its adversaries now or just keep pretending?

We have good presidents like Jimmy Carter to get beyond your one sided view and most Israelis want to end this War and Hamas wants to end it also.

It takes both sides, the Jews and the Arabs to make peace.
I don't think Israel, The USA or Palestine has a moral right to exist as they are existing now.

We can't change the past...we simply can't, but are you ready to change for the future?

Wow, what 91? bad vibes, dudes & dudeits,
Lets get the facts. Jews were on the land long
before the Palestinians. Fact. Second, Jewish
groups were buying land there before WWII. Highest
price , poorest land. After WWII the UN (made up of
most of the nations of the world) voted to set aside
a small bit of land for the Jews to come to to live.
The Jews wanted to live in peace with everyone in this
area. The arabs did not! As soon as the land of Jews
became a nation, the arabs were to attack & rape/kill
ALL the Jews. This from EVERY nation in the area.
Sent in armys to do this. Over the radio told all
arabs in the Jewish nation to leave & come back later
after the rape/killing was over OR to join in & help.
Fact! The nation of Isral said "If you leave, you may
not come back later, if you stay & help, you will become a citizen too" Fact! Well we all know what happen, the Jews smashed the arab armys & set up their
own just nation. From there to now the Jews tried to form
peace with the area nations in the area, but few accepted. Nor did they help their arab brothers, ah
the Palestinians, even rich as the arab nations in the
area were. Sad there, huh? So the Jews have had to
fight 60 years because the arabs would not work out
things together with reason & respect. Sad, but the
Palestinians were to remain in camps, no aid or help
from their muslem brothers. One group did get accepted
by jordan but only to find them trying to overturn the
king of jordan so he tossed them out. Peace, huh?
Side note, Christians are not to murder. Kill, now
if it is a just cause, then that is ok. Read your
old & new parts of the bible. Fact. Don't you know
Jesus is coming back at the head of a peace march......
oh no...I mean head of an Army. He even ordered his
chosen to arm themselved, don't you know your bible,
folks? Jews, Christian & Muslems are from the same
source & yes non-members are still of the same RACE.
Human race, don't you know, that is the only race by
the way. Boodusism? Silly, better read up on that.
True those muslems who carried bombs DO NOT go to
a good place so say the Quran, don't you know. Nor
will Jews or Christins who murder. God does expect
the weak, old, young, helpless etc to be protected and
defended by what ever is necessary to do the job. Key
word is JUST way, then do it.
True oil is important to the USA, all the world if
you know the truth.
You all need to get your facts together. Sad but it is
true there has been wrong done by all sides. But look
at the start & see who caused war & keeps doing so.
Facts, get them or as you read above comments, silly
yet dangerous, sad so may folks have such bad vibes.
You know if good men & women do nothing, then evil
one will. Way of the world - read your history of the
Human race - not a lot of peace there, huh?
George
your favoright neocon, retired army officer combat vet
& Texican

Massud, yes, there was one, and the palestinians rejected it.

It would have been 1948 israel too, far less then what israel would have even at 67 borders.

Fox, the holocaust, for the umpteenth time, has nothing to do with this. Palestinians suffer for palestinian aggression, not european aggression.

Maybe all these problems will be solved should an alien race descended and point their laser guns at us and say "Look buddy, I don't give a damn what happened to you before nor how you feel about it now nor the reasons you will give, but here's what that you've got. Now I'd like to see you and him live together without disputes or my finger will slip."

Maybe that'll set our minds on a better path than what we have now.

HEH

forextrader,

You forgot Skokie, Illinois.

Jewbacca's pathetic musings would be laughable if not for the sad fact that many so-called "progressives" and neocons support that sickening point of view. I don't claim that Palestinians are perfect, but why the hell they should pay for a crime that was perpetrated by Europeans in WWII? Where's the justice in that? Hamas said that they would be willing to live side by side with Israel. That's more gracious than me. I agree with President Achmedinejad, "Israel" should eb relocated. Perhaps to Europe, Brooklyn, Miami-Dade or Mars.

Will some anti-zionist plz tell us all about the Palestinian state that was forming at the same time the Israeli state was? Oh wait, there wasn't one.

Lillulu :

To answer your question : Judaism is neither and is both. I think you are closest to the point and right to describe the phenomenon as a tribe.

BTW, I posted this for another CD article on "Palestinians Mark 'Catastrophe' of Israel's Birth" of 15/05, but I thought the comment would interest you here too.

One of the problems of this subject is how easy it is to be pushed into the two dimensional frame, a simplistic, dualistic argument on and about the justification of violence, a preferred direction of propagandists to avoid facing the underlying problem of a Zionist theft of Arab land, authorized by colonialists and imperialists. It may help to step back and broaden the perspective.

In fact, many Israelis have been made into and are as much pawns to a Zionist elite power game as are many Palestinians pawns for a much larger Arab elite power structure, dominated by the hang over of a colonial history in terms of potentates and dictators now supported by today's imperialist America.

Religion is over emphasised in the context and is not as much the cause of the differences or the problems as one might be lead to believe but it is used as a simple excuse again by propagandists for the irrational, in most cases as a short cut for the ignorant or brainwashed masses in America, Israel and the Arab world. There is no doubt that the issues surrounding the Naqba, and the wars, expulsions, and illegal occupation and Israeli war crimes since are not simple, but all must be addressed to arrive at a practical sollution.

Personally I found the following article in The New Statesman, "Talking to the Enemy" by Avi Shlaim, very helpful to understand how the Zionists were able to use the fears of both Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt and the Hashemite kings of Jordan to consolidate their gains of wars.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200805150024

"There can be no genuine or viable peace between Israel and the Palestinians without an end to the occupation. Peace-making and land-grabbing simply do not go together. Consequently, 40 years after its spectacular victory in the Six-Day War, Israel still faces the same fundamental choice: it can have land or it can have peace; it cannot have both."

For further interesting perspectives and especially an excellent commentary by Paul Woodward on "Talking to Hamas" (16/05) and "Bush Bullshit" (15/05) take a look at:

http://warincontext.org/

Many Americans can't afford proper health and dental care for themselves and their children, but we pay for the Israelis to have it free thanks to us American taxpayers. No wonder they think they're so smart. They've gotten away with a huge rip-off of our tax money. They're probably having a good laugh about it.

Jews are the most tribal people on earth, which is why they think they're entitled to a country of their own and to steal the Palestinians' land. Are Jews a race or a religion, by the way?

People in Israel were appaluding George Bush? Israel has a very short memory. The bush family fortune came from the misery of Nazi Germany. Some of bush's grandfather's money helped to finance Aushwitz.

Jewbaca

look up the declaration of Balfour and learn more about the new world order

None of this misery would be occurring if the numbers of people weren't
increasing. The seven hundred thousand Palestinians expelled from their homes in the Nakba are now seven million who want to come home. The growth in numbers of Israelis, almost all immigrants, has been less rapid, but quite substantial. People require water and land, which are not infinite. The survival of the Jewish State is in jeopardy mostly because of the burgeoning numbers of people, Jewish and Arab, and their survival demands.

No Jewbecaa....you are just a zionist racist jackarse ,,,,besides being a megaphone drone.

Jewbacca May 16th, 2008 12:29 pm

Skippy, they didn't evict anything,

*****

yes, you did refer to people as things. Had you said 'anyone' I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Jewbacca May 16th, 2008 3:32 pm

I agree, tit for tat is worthless. Its time to go into gaza with full ground forces and fight it out to the death with hamas.

********

How would fighting it out with hamas not lead to a wholesale slaughter? Especially when one side has such a disproportionate ability to slaughter people?

Jewbacca May 16th, 2008 11:37 pm

Peace in the middle east? I don't think anyone is ready for peace yet. I think both sides need to fight it out longer. Trying to put a premature end to this conflict just saves that anger for another day. I can tell you that I want those who were cheering in the streets for every suicide bombing to never know peace, and I bet they feel the same way about me. So its not going to end and you guys should put your energy elsewhere.

*******

There is no such thing as a premature peace, unless you think peace is a graveyard.

Well, it's been fun. But you're begining to bore me now. bye.

Bush always looks like a homosexual when he tries to kiss and embrace the Saudis, and I see in the picture he's caressing Shimon Peres' neck. What an azz kisser.

This one has been interesting. It's Israel's fault! It's Palestine's fault! And so on.

It's the Allies' fault for creating Israel in the first place, but now that Israel exists it can't be unmade, so it's imperative that the situation be resolved. So, since the Allies made this mess in the first place, they should take a hand in fixing it. This includes the US, but the US needs to correct its own warlike behavior before it can do this. Trouble is, the US likes to have bad relations between Israel and Palestine because that gives it an excuse to maintain military bases in the Middle East to onstensibly protect Israel, but the real reason is to control Middle Eastern oil. So there will never be peace between Palestine and Israel as long as the US is dependent on Middle Eastern oil. The last thing the US wants is peace between Israel and Palestine, but if it ever did, the only way to work it out would be to see to it that both sides made concessions, not just one or the other.

But Israel should make more concessions than Palestine.

I am descended from Lucy.

Skippy, sorry there is a LOT to respond to. A few things: First of all, I haven't talked about anyone on here being anti-semitic, except as a joke sometimes, and second of all, I have most certainly not advocated "wholesale slaughter of arabs". That's actually what THEY advocate, not me.

I don't refer to people evicted as "things", but I question your narrative on why they were evicted, and what events proceeded their eviction. I didn't say you support the enslavement of women either, what i said is that the oppression of women is a feature in arab culture, and this culture seems to have your sympathy. At the very least, it leaves you guys looking silly when you try and label me sexist. That's like trying to call me homophobic, while supporting people who set gay people on fire or crush them with walls.

Peace in the middle east? I don't think anyone is ready for peace yet. I think both sides need to fight it out longer. Trying to put a premature end to this conflict just saves that anger for another day. I can tell you that I want those who were cheering in the streets for every suicide bombing to never know peace, and I bet they feel the same way about me. So its not going to end and you guys should put your energy elsewhere.

Jewbacca;

I fail to understand why you pick out one point to disagree with in any of my posts only to ignore most of the other points I've made. You damn others for trying to kill all the Jews, then seem to advocate the wholesale slaughter of Arabs. Then claim we're anti-semetic...

You claim to honour female equality, yet refer to those whom the Isreali's evicted as 'things,' may I remind you that at least half of the evictees were female. You're nuts, dear boy. I made the analogy to a rape victim as you have been quite content to blame the victims of the Isreali gov't. Why would I think you'd do anything but blame a girl for getting raped?

Perhaps you'd like to back up your source for the claim that I, or any progressive, support the enslavement of women?

Perhaps you'd also like to explain how you would bring about peace in the middle east? Killing them all and letting God sort it out seems to be what you're arguing for, would you at least disagree with that?

The rest of the world gets it. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35383

Jewbacca,
I've read Common Dreams for a number of months now. This is my first post. I feel very sorry for you and everyone who has to share this planet with you and your hateful, ignorant posts. From my point of view, all religions seem to stand in the way of truth, justice and peace. Your posts sicken me and prove my point. It appears you need to get a life.
Thank you for listening

Bush's chutzpah knows no limits. He equates Barack Obama, with his willingness to possibly negotiate with Hamas and Iran, with Nazi appeasers while himself negotiating with North Korea, part of what he styles "the axis of evil," and giving aid to Pakistan despite its continuing involvement with and funding of groups that carry out terrorist attacks against US troops in Afghanistan and against Indian troops and civilians. But the most damning fact is that his own grandfather, Senator Prescott Bush, was undeniably a supporter of the Nazis and broke US laws in the process. Here is an account from the UK's respected Guardian newspaper:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

hahaha, you idiots think the fact that I post from multiple IP's means I'm multiple people??? You think I'm a "GIYUS drone"???

I am a man with multiple computers, several at work and one at home. I am not anything special, just a jew here to break up your disgusting circle jerk. We've been "trolling" as you seem to call dissent, all throughout history, so please get used to it.

Curtis: I agree with that comment by Ben Guirion, in that it is how arabs perceive things. However, I am no slave to arab perception. I think they deny the fact that they willingly allowed the british to become their masters and decide their fate, and they laid claim to the land in a way that they had no right to do. Keep in mind, no arabs were removed from their land simply by partition. They were removed during and after the war, which certainly did not have to occur had partition been accepted.

skippy, I'm offended you should mention rape like that, you have no idea what my feelings are on that issue. Furthermore, since so many of you "progressives" seem to support a culture that sexually enslaves women, I don't see how you can play the "empathetic to women" card ever again, not that that card should have been played in the first place.

USAn, I can see all of that, and of course you completely neglect to point out that ARAB actions that cause those israeli responses. Yes, my family might get blown up, if for the past 60 years I had been trying to kill those that were now trying to kill me! The hebron massacre was in 1929, before there even was an israel. Sure, if you look at this conflict in a completely one-sided way, it looks one-sided! Imagine that. At least I acknowledge what israel does, you guys never say a WORD about palestinian behavior. Why, in the context of posting in commondreams, would I be more balanced?

Jim, of course it wasn't arabs that funded Hitler's war machine, in the end it was the german taxpayer. I don't see what you guys hope to gain by always talking about these WWII conspiracies. They do not explain the situation in the middle east today. Look to the Balflour Declaration, or the reaction of the arab governments to partition, if you want to look at some more relevant issues.

There's too much to respond to here, I'll wait for some more. For those of you who wish me to leave... too bad!

first, mukimaine, you praise the israelis for taking in jews from arab lands as if that were some kind of sacrifice? they needed jewish bodies to make sure that they could displace the indiginous palestinians! of course they would take them in. what nonsense to give them credit for it.

second, i have been reading articles about the theory that the chosen people who consider that their ancestors lived in palestine 2000+ years ago. it seems that they are really a conglomerate of various converts, many from northern africa, i guess arabs. i think some from asia. etc etc. forgot the name of the person, an israeli professor. this really seems plausible.
so the joke is on all of us, the chosen ones, and the rest of us.

Telling A Story of Al Nakba/The Disaster/Catastrophe

I did just that after the first of my five journeys into Israel Palestine in "KEEP HOPE ALIVE"-a slightly fictionalized Al Nakba story of the well remembered memoirs of a 1948 refugee from the Upper Galilee who made his way to the USA and realized the American dream.

After a lucrative career in the Defense Industry during the Cold War and THAT DAY we call 9/11, Khaled Diab brought together American Jews, Christians and Muslims to respond to evil with good by founding the 501 3-c Olive Trees Foundation for Peace.

"Keep Hope Alive" tells his story as accurately as I could, and it is entwined with my spiritual journey as a child of the sixties told through six fictional characters who represent six ways to intuit that mystery we call God.

Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory" and the soon to be released "BOOM BOOM BENNY STORY"
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu"

and don't forget that hitler got his ideas for concentration camps for undesirables from the USA's use of reservations for our native peoples.

A major complaint against the zionists here in USA is how they try to hide the truth,
if there is a Palestinian suicide bomber you'll see film on every news channel; the
numerous daily dead Palestinians so seldom
are even mentioned, like they don't even matter. Another reason to check out Alison
Weir's "If Americans Knew" web site, to get
some true facts, especially on how the newyork times skews the facts in Israel's favor.

The light is beginning to pierce the darkness the zionists have so carefully constructed around their nefarious "experiment" of stealing another people's country.

He is a troll, I looked up the encoding of his comments and they are coming from different users, the id # is different for different comments.
If I may, just a complete verse from the Qur'an from 5. Surat al-MA'IDAH vs.32: This is why WE decreed for the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul, without[its being guilty of]manslughter or corruption on the earth, is as though he has killed all mankind, and whoever saves a life is as though he had saved all mankind.
Our apostles certainly brought them manifest signs, yet even after that many of them commit excesses on the earth.

So as the troll(s) repeated ad hominem on another article, "...'genocided' Israelis...", is that akin to 'Homicided', moronic statement. They deny Palestinians food, water, medicine, oil, electric any and all basic necessities for one to survive, use tanks to smash Palestinian homes to rubble in order to build 'Settlements' with Zionests armed to the teeth and when they shoot to kill they as judged by isreali courts are justifiable shootiings. I think they 'Homicided' some Palestians on Palestinian land, YA THINK?
As for the Sociopath in Chief total A**hole, which is where he speaks from, he had no Constitutional Authority to commit the anti-American(i consider us the americans on CD, that is the why i said anti0american)statements and his unjustifiable support of murderers of the persons of Palestine and the greatest mobsters of our era.

Let's get one thing straight: Arabs were created by the same God, gods, superior being(s), Great Spirit, whatever.......that everyone else was created by. They are not "dogs." No one is superior to anyone else.

Jews are no smarter than anyone else. They spend more time studying than others do since knowledge is power -- and $ money $. There's nothing wrong with getting a good education. However, there's no need to turn into a nerd or a geek and become twisted and unbalanced about it.

Using the Israelis' way of thinking as an example, the Native-Americans should reclaim their land. Don't the Jews claim that Israel was theirs hundreds of years ago -- and so it was okay to just kick the Palestinians off of the land, kill them, and actually commit genocide on them? It seems they learned the wrong things from Nazi Germany. What's smart about that?

Jewbacca:
The crimes are commited on both sides.. Peace means we go forward now and talk to all sides.

But since we are discussing history
You say "Jim, the Rothchildes were almost murdered by Hitler!"

Well you spell the name wrong but there were many many Rothschilds and their banking Empire goes back to Napoleon and most of the large Central banks in the world including the Fed were started by Rothschild agents.... also not all the Rothschilds were bad.

But you should realize that it was not the Arabs that funded Hitler's War Machine and anti Semitism is also Israel's treatmant of real Semites (Arabs) while most Jews are decended from Europe.

Now many of their American agents were Presott Bush, the Dulles Brothers, Fritz Thysson and with the German Steel trusts were funding Hitler the Brown and Black shirts and the steel and chemical companies of Hitler.

You can learn more about Rothschilds by googling "Rothschilds support for Hitler" and how the banks all tie in to the big picture and this article look up "Bush Hitler connections"

Shalom

"Chosen people" = racism.

chet;
I do it so as to see to what length the troll will go. Kinda like how a car crash will attract the eye as you're driving past it. Hopefully I've not caused a wreck by doing so...

lf it is a choice of motzah or oil, l'll take the oil. Give the Jews Arizona or Florida if they need an independent state.

Why do so many of you give this odious troll jewbacca the attention he so obviously craves?

My initial feeling was that he is a GIYUS drone, but his posts contain so many illiteracies that it would seem that he isn't smart enough to subscribe to their group.

FYI, here is the latest GIYUS tool:

"The Megaphone desktop tool is a Microsoft Windows application distributed by the World Union of Jewish Students and other pro-Israel organizations, through the Giyus.org website. It delivers real-time alerts about key articles, videos, blogs, and surveys to subscribers so that they can voice their opinions and work together to support Israel on the public opinion front."

First let me commend Jewbacca as it seems he is one of the few here that's still willing to defend Israel's actions (no matter what)...I appreciate your comments, although I don't agree with a lot of what you say...

Jewbacca, considering all the things you've said above can you please explain David Ben-Gurion's comment below, and how do you right that with what you've said?

In "The First Arab-Israeli War" by Benny Morris, David Ben-Gurion the first Israeli prime minister, confesses that he, too, would wage perpetual war with Israel if he were a Palestinian.

Morris quoted Ben-Gurion as saying:

"Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: We have come here and (have) stolen their country." - David Ben-Gurion

Was this a Freudian slip or the truth coming out?

Also I wonder why the US should be expected to always defend Israel no matter what...which seems to be the attitude of most pro-Isreali groups and supporters (including it seems you Jewbacca)...should we not condemn Israel if they do something bad just like we do with everyone else in the world? Say like how we used Iraq's refusal to follow the UN resolutions as one of the reasons for war...yet Israel has had dozens of UN resolutions that they have either ignored or completely refused to recognize or follow...what's the difference?...is it because one is Arab the other not?

I also wonder why the US is expected to always be Israel's "friend" and protector when Israel constantly treats America not like a friend but as a tool to be used...see the multiple examples of Mossad spies constantly getting caught spying here in the US (there's too many to list just type Israeli Spies in google and be prepared to be shocked)...look at the secrets (including nuclear) they've stolen from us their supposed friend...they have even killed and attacked us before (see USS Liberty)...had any other country done these things I think most would agree we would have already started a war with them...we've done it for less reasons before.

And please don't use the canard of "Israel is America's only friend in the region" since this is the case only because of the fact we've been so one sided in support of Israel for so long...Had we been more fair with the treatment of other peoples and countries in the region, we'd have far more "friends" than what we currently have, not to mention the attitudes of Arabs and Muslims (the world over) in general would be far different...

Lastly if Israel is so great and wonderful, fair and democratic, why have they refused to finish the Constitution which Israel's founders (including Ben-Gurion) said would be finished by now...could it have something to do with having to give equal rights to the Arabs in Israel? Or is it because the right wing in Israel is fighting with the liberals for control of the heart of Israel...one side wanting a secular state and one side wanting a theocratic state (not much different then Iran) based on Jewish Orthodoxy (meaning no room for non Jews)...right now the right wing is winning and has been so for a while...either way it doesn't look very good for your arguments.

I cannot understand why the usually clever people who comment on this site are wasting their effort having been baited into following the bias prattle of this JEWBACCA. (Baka is the Japanese for stupid)

The history is clear and no one needs the bias offered by this supporter of Zionist state terror and war criminals. The only way to deal with these propagandists is to totally ignore them and their pretence at argument in which they try to justify bigotry racism and the criminal theft of Arab land. The truth is they couldn't care less if you think them right or wrong as long as you let them get away with it. And so far with the help of American and British Zionists they have succeeded to "get away with murder and theft".

I was much more interested to discuss, this article and ask what is the significance of America being "Israel's greatest friend", according to Bush? Does that make for a good "intermediary for a balanced and fair peace settlement"? While Bush and therefore America is happy to completely ignore the plight of Palestinians and infringements on previous agreements, yet Hamas cannot be dealt with because (like the founders of the Zionist entity) they are considered terrorists. Abbas represents little more than a corrupt and unpopular minority yet he is the only one approved of by US and Tel Aviv only because he will do their bidding, the more he does the less support he has in the Palestinian community at large. It is masterly arranged to allow the criminals to go on thieving and killing while they play at pretending to do something about the stalemate in their fictitious peace process.

The people of Gaza are starving, being deprived of the basic necessities of life, socially and economically being persecuted, victimized and terrorized by a criminal Zionist entity.

While the US provides weapons, intelligence data, funds, and economic support to the criminals to help them illegally occupy territory that they have absolutely no right to, historically or legally or in any possible way one might like to put it, the same USA that is itself presently illegally occupying Iraq and Afghanistan, threatening Iran and participating in war crimes against Somalia.

Now all that preamble to ask this question… If you were 21 years of age and had seen your grandfather have his olive trees pulled out by their roots by an occupying army, his land stolen, his sister shot in the head by an Israeli sniper, his father and mother humiliated and deprived… And if you were he, and you had to listen to the war criminal Bush saying how much of a "friend" he is to these other criminals, would you not really wonder what is left for you to do? What would you do to get a life on your own land again, if you were in his place? Would you trust in a peace with these thieves and layers, or guns and rockets? I mean to ask is Bush, and are the Zionists, really trying to stimulate more and greater violence against their Zionist entity by their rhetoric? It sounds like these "men of peace", they really want a war, so badly. One should be careful what one wishes for. One might actually get it.

I'm neither Christian, Muslim, nor Jew, but :

Matthew 26:52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

and

the quran:
We ordained for the The table chapter(Surat Al-Ma'idah') 32:" Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or to spread mischief in the land – it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone revived him, it would be as if he revived the life of all mankind"

...

Jewbacca (what a nick),

Let me put it this way. If you:

1. had your homeland invaded,

2. the invaders bulldozed your home, bulldozed your shop, farm, and means of livlihood,

3. forced you into grinding poverty;

4. subjected to humiliation and shame on a daily basis;

5. then, (just to top it off), they murder your brother, son or daughter (practically every Palestinian has a family member or acquaintance who was killed by the Israelis)

Well, if this happened to you, might you, just might you, be willing to strap on a BOMB, and BLOW A FEW OF YOUR TORMENTORS TO KINGDOM COME?

But you can't see this, can't you Mr. Jewbacca, because in your filthy, racist, Zionist mind, Arabs are just DOGS, without human feelings, aren't they???

I am an agnostic, but it is cold, calculating amoral people like you that lead me to dearly wish there is a HELL!

The Arab countries expelled as many Jews as Arabs left the new state of Israel in the late 1940s. The new state,impoverished as it was, took them all in and eventually managed to build them homes and find them work. They and their descendents are now among the leading citizens of Israel in every imaginable field.

The Arab countries chose to keep those who left Israel in squalid refugee camps, festering swamps of poverty and resentment. The Jews did not receive compensation from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, etc., etc., etc. Why should the oil-rich Arabs receive any from Israel?

I agree that the State of Israel has not treated its Arab citizens well and has made millions of mistakes in treating the Arabs it acquired power over in 1967, but I will never agree that Israel does not have a right to exist.

nahida May 16th, 2008 2:24 pm

Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu told an audience at Bar Ilan university that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel.

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq,"

And that boys and girls, speaks to motive! He was not confessing, but subtly bragging I suspect.

The neocons are Lukidist and the history of Netanyahu is well worth reading, I am referring to the word of Barry Chamish, an Israeli author and right-winger, with whom years ago I had a running correspondence on the Rabin assassination.

Here the link from which to read the whole thing: http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1997/02/msg01038.html

'Even within the conventional story, it is clear that Netanyahu was groomed for leadership by the Council On Foreign Relations (CFR) in New York. In 1979, twenty-seven year old Netanyahu called a conference on terrorism and the ruling elite of the CFR, Bush, Shultz and Perle answered to his summons. One word will suffice: why?

In 1979, Netanyahu organized an anti-terrorism conference in Jerusalem,
dedicated to his fallen brother. Somehow, he managed to attract the
likes of George Bush, George Shultz, and Richard Perle (President's
Reagan's chief arms negotiator) to the meeting and was thrust briefly
onto the world stage'

The escalating danger of nuclear war is THE issue that WE not are irresponsible avoiding.

Planned US-Israeli Attack on Iran

And another point that should not be allowed pas unnoticed, but was, even in Israel, was the brazen hypocritical statement he made, as report in this article by Donald Macintyre.:

"President"Bush...'"supporters of appeasing the Nazis before the Second World War."'

Does George Jr, not know about his grandfather, Prescott Bush? Hitler's banker in the United States, before and during World War Two, even after a Declaration of War!

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.

The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz

Staggering!

First off, the commandment says not to kill, it doesn't give ANY circumstances under which killing is acceptable.

Also, I've been trying to force international law on the US for a while, but my congressmen have been unresponsive. I guess they're too busy figuring out how to keep baseball players off steroids. The US started an illegal war in Iraq on the pretense of upholding international law. In any case, nobody is going to get Hamas to follow international law because nobody will talk to them. In addition, if you sign the treaty you are supposed to abide by it. Jew, Muslim, Xian or otherwise.

As to "wanting it back", what is Israel's excuse? Flip-flop the names in your statement and you have the Palestinian point of view.

Lastly, opening fire on children for throwing rocks, starving massive amounts of people, and demolishing peoples homes are definitely not on the list of ways to overcome negative stereotypes.

The bottom line is you can't just show up and say "This land is ours now." and not expect the people who are living there to have a problem with it. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work that way.

Goodnight.

Ahhh, gotta love these debates.

jewbacca, you have not a shred of empathy in you. I'd hate to think what you'd say to someone who was raped... Neither the Isreali's nor the Palistinians are saints, but the violence advocated by the extremists on both sides will lead to total blindness in the end. Tell me how you expect peace to develop in a region where violence is now the norm?

You claim that the palistinians teach their children to hate Isreal, do you beleive that no one in Isreal is teaching their jewish children to hate the arabs? I think it's both sides of this conflict that have covered themselves in excrement.

Arguing that international law is moot because no one follows it, is a poor arguement to make. Scrapping international law will lead the world back to the good old days when wars were indeed the sport of kings and the bane of all other humans.

Right now the Isreali's are stronger and better armed than their neighbours. That is something that will change, the history of human conflict guarantees it. Eventually, unless the Isreali's and Palistinians make peace and learn to get along, one side will kill off and/or enslave the other. Given the current problems the usa is having with its economy and the ill-will generated by its foolish invasion of Iraq, not to mention foolhardy sabre rattleing against Iran, in time the usa will not be able to sell advanced weapons to Isreal. What then? Will Isreal use the nukes they claim not to have?

Note on the Holocaust, it was at least 11 million people killed by the Nazi's in their camps. Disagree if you want, but should you check out the archives you'll find records for all those people. The death toll wasn't exagerated, but the bare minimum. The number of that genocide doesn't count the Soviet pow's who the Germans executed/starved or worked to death.

Heck.

Both the Palestinians and the Israelis know that Bush will not contribute A JOT to peace. And then Dumbya has the gall to drag US Politics into Israel's 60s Anniv. It's like someone's Mom at a kid's birthday party qvetching about her old man or telling the rest of the kids how "her" boy messed his pants.

It is unconscionable. We are shamed. We are impoverished. We are a "superpower" in only rhetoric and nukes (and we can't use either and our money is gone). We have no "hand". We are no longer.

And this all started with that Nazi-lover Prescott.

Ugh. --UB.

Studios, I'm sorry, but "killing is killing" is just not something I agree with. Is a serial killer the same as a mobster who kills other mobsters? I'd say not even close. And that's just one example.

You are right, suicide bombing is a recent tactic. Before suicide bombing, they killed israelis with more "traditional" means, like planted bombs, sniper fire, or artillery fire from the west bank (back when jordan was in control of it).

I think the palestinians are angry becuase they see all of israel as theirs, and want it "back". They are taight this from birth, as well as a host of anti-jewish stereotypes such as jews drink blood and have horns. If I honestluy believed that blood-drinking satan worshippers had took my home, I suppose I would be pissed to. However, this is no excuse as its racist and historically innaccurate.

And don't even get me started on "international law". As far as I'm concerned, this so called law means nothing, as israel is the only country that people try to force it on. NO other country in the region follows "international law".

Last first, killing is killing, no matter what the excuse. Also not that the question was aimed at not only Jews, but Muslims and Xians as well.

As to the first, I'm fairly sure the demolition started long before the suicide bombings, but even so do you really think destroying people's homes to build your own is a good way to get them to stop attacking you? Do you really not have a clue as to WHY the Palestinians are angry? If so the stereotype mentioned earlier is definitely not true.

By the way, collective punishment (as in starving the people of Gaza) is illegal under international law.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not trying to say the Muslims' hands are totally clean in all of this, but Israel is in a much better position to start the peace process, and all they do is instigate. It's like 2 kids fighting in a sandbox, only Israel is super-power's pet.

Studios, israelis do not bulldoze anything because of old books, but because of very new suicide bombings and rocket firings.

Why would my kids be throwing rocks at armed soldiers? Oh yea, because I taught them from birth to hate jews and commit acts of violence? I must say I'm not very sympathetic.

The ten commandments apply to all, I don't get why you bring them in. In my mind israel is not stealing and murdering, when they have a totally legitimate security concern based on biggotted aggresion...

Jewbacca, how would you feel if somebody came in and bulldozed your neighborhood because they had a really old book that said they could? Think about it. How would you feel if somebody knocked on the door to the home your family has been living in for generations and said "You have 24 hours to vacate. This land is being turned into a Rasta-only highway to better connect our Rasta-only settlements."

Even better, how would you feel if you children, sick of being treated as a second-rate citizen, were shot by the IDF for throwing rocks?

Also, if any of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim posters could answer the following question for me I'd really appreciate it:
Why is it that the ten commandments only apply to people who follow the same version of the "Magic Pony in the Sky" story as you?

jxh: "The world"? Are you kidding me? The world has a coniption fit everytime an israeli looks at an arab the wrong way! There are whole UN agencies that exist to ONLY attack israel! Most of the world's media is totally in the pocket of arabs and will often print doctored photographs and data that supports the palestinian side. Remember the fake Jenin death toll, the fake funerals? Remember the faked photos in the hezbollah war? No, the world is on the arab's side.

I agree, tit for tat is worthless. Its time to go into gaza with full ground forces and fight it out to the death with hamas.

I'm not ignoring anything, it's the world that ignores the plight of the innocent women and children that get blown-up by air strikes against a besieged people.

It seems to me the Israeli government could handle this situation a little better if they wanted to. The tit-for-tat attacks are pointless and will only end when genocide is acheived. You know this they know this and that's the Zionist plan.

USN: Where have I talked about jews being "chosen people" or used this as an argument? Its you lefties who always say this, not me.

jxh: Well, I don't even agree with calling it "palestine" in that context, since palestine is a roman word. There have always been arabs in that region, but there have also always been jews in that region, albeit for a long time not very many. As for the british, they were invited in in 1917 to fight the Ottomans, and welcomed as liberators. The arabs in the region even collaborated with them.

I agree that life for SOME palestinians is not good, but why do you blame israel 100% for this and totally ignore palestinian violence and bigotry? As long as this is totally ignored, expect israel to do the same vis a vis palestinian "suffering".

True, but wasn't Palestine a British colony in 1948 not really British land now was it. History does tell us that there were always Arabs living in Palestine, correct?

I'm not here to argue or get into fights it would be nice just to agree that life for Palestinians is total hell and it isn't because they are a huge security threat to Israel and the West. There is clearly something else at play here and it isn't good.

Don't you agree?

BTW: Some of us crazy lefties do have bills to pay and families to feed just like you righties. I'm lucky because I develop websites for a living a mostly solitary job that allows me to work from home and work when I want to. Not all of us have to beg and collect cans.

Jim, the Rothchildes were almost murdered by Hitler! Jesus you guys are dumb sometimes. Most jews consider the Rothchildes to be Hitler supporters??? You guys bringing this stuff up is what proves this isn't just about israel.

Full, no no no, actually, in 1948, that land was british. It was the british that came up with partition, and the arabs who rejected it, which they had no right to do. Keep in mind also it was Ottoman land before that, and the arabs let the british in to fight the ottomans.

Learn some history guys, and give me a break with this "jewbacca just cares about jews" stuff. I could just as easily say you guys just care about the arabs and no other...

2cents: I didn't say the palestinians had the upper hand, I said they cheered in the streets when israeli civlians were murdered, and seemed far more nazi-like to me, which they clearly are.

jxh: The arabs in 1948 were not protecting their homeland, as it wasn't their homeland it was british palestine. They seemed to think that they would get all the land and it would be part of a pan-arab superstate. Sorry it didn't work out, but that's what happens when you allow europeans to plan your land for you, which is what they surely did.

I haven't skipped out just yet, I just have a job which takes a lot of my time. I know most of you probably don't...

nahida,

First, welcome to CD! I've enjoyed reading your posts on other fora, like informationclearinghouse.

But in the west anyway, Jews do seem to be a very smart bunch - Marx, Einstein, Feynman, Oppenheimer, Heisenberg, Bohr, Sakarov, Chomsky. Nearly all the greatest intellectuals and orgainzers in the US left are Jews(including the anti-Zionuists) are all Jews, from the Rosenbergs to Naomi Klein.

But the Jews REALLY need to get off of this "God-Chosen People" nonsense. Everywhere Jews emigrate, they move into a country and insultingly declare themselves a special, "God Chosen People", and then complain about being at the recieving end of pogroms and such!

The only place the Jews get away with this "God-chosen people" stuff is in Amerikka, because, of course, the Amerikkans (especially the Protestant WASPS who founded and largely run the place), are the only _other_ people in the world who consider themselved a "God Chosen People" too (that must be why the US remains the only place in the West where circumcision remains so popular, and the way we shun the SI measurement system, the UN, and anything that smacks of internationalism)

And don't get me started about this "Palestinians left because Syria/Jordan/Egypt ordered them to." Sure! They would flee their homes, belongings, shops, family, businesses, farms, ancient olive groves, pets, and everything they loved based on an announcement on the radio. Sure thing! Do you take us Goyim and our Arab friends for fucking idiots????

Banjo man,
There is more than one Israeli view which your link above does not even mention and most Jews in the world have known the truth of how the Rothschilds and the Bush's and the Fords and all the rest have supported Hitler and were against all the leftist Jews who wanted to boycott Hitler's Germany while the right wing Jews and Wasp war profiteers and bankers were covering up the Holocaust as it was happening for their own benefit.

Here is a new Jewish lobby group for Peace http://jstreet.org/

When he rattled the saber to Iran, the Knesset clapped happily.
Mabus intends to attack Iran, declare martial law, cancel the elections and implant biochips in everyone.

jxh261- The point that Jewbacca is trying to make is that the Palestinians never had a homeland.
They were essentially "squatters" for hundreds of years on land that belongs to the "Chosen People". If you have no homeland what is there to protect. Look at his arguement on them being nothing more than trans-jordanians. Talk about needing to learn history. Jewbacca is a zionist to the core and the only people that matter to him are his own. The trans-european jews who were the victimized are now the victimizers but you will never get that through to Jewbacca.

Looks like Jewbacca skippied away.

Jewbacca, you don't even try to be balanced, you make unsubstantiated blanket statements:

1. Skippy, they didn't evict anything, the palestinians left due to arab propaganda telling them they would get everything the jews owned after the war - SOURCE PLEASE

2. lillilu: Holocaust denial huh? Nice to see that's the latest tack of you "progressives"…

- When clearly he/she said they thought the number exaggerated

3. Do your observations about hitler and collective punishment apply to the palestinians who murder random israelis then cheer, by the thousands, in the streets? They seem far more nazi-like to me.

THE PALESTINIANS ARE AN OCCUPIED PEOPLE, THEY CLEARLY DO NOT HAVE THE UPPER HAND, SO THIS IS A RIDICULOUS CLAIM.

Do you have an intellectually honest bone in your body?