Peace marches are good, but they need support from democratic media systems that allow people to understand what the marchers are marching for.

If all we see is prowar messages on our monopoly controlled televisions and in our monopoly controlled newspapers, then antiwar messages on the street will appear to be a minority or even an unpatriotic position.

Forget the tyrant's friend and the people's foe, just march.

ALWAYS march through new towns.

Here's another article about the march: http://unadillaramblings.blogspot.com/

I hope the link works.

Keep on rockin in the free world.
Hoa binh

"Carmen Viviano-Crafts, 23, of Syracuse, who was carrying a small cardboard sign that read, "Bring home my boyfriend," said that some people "gave us the finger and stuff like that.""

So this young woman was carrying a sign that told people that she wanted her boyfriend to come home from Iraq, and people gave her the finger? What kind of person would do that? Might as well just yell at her: "Hey, girly, I hope your boyfriend gets shot and dies!"

Guess this is what happens when a society is inundated with glorification-of-war propaganda for decades.

Long live the one-finger salute. Works in all languages, no transalation needed.

I hate to be a pessimist but I have been to probably a dozen peace marches since Cheney/Bush's 2002 war of aggression against Iraq and we even turned the tide and have a solid majority of U.S. citizens calling for withdrawal and pRedident Cheney's reaction recently was "so?" As I said in another item non violent change requires a press that accurately reports demonstrators demands and a responsive government nether of which sadly apply in the U.S. empire. Although I think peace marches are extremely noble and may give US hope sadly I don't think they will change U.S. government policy. To keep repeating something that doesn't work is one of the text book definitions of insanity, thus I think we need to have a discussion on the left of what would ACTUALLY work to stop the war. And no I don't think working within the system is the answer either, electing Dimorats in 2006 accomplished exactly nothing for us. Thus sadly I think we are left with either sustained direct action blockades that hopefully would work, and if that doesn't work revolution which would involve eek scary guns. Obviously I would hope non violent blockades would work and ought to be tried FIRST but I also think we ought to keep our powder dry if they fail and thus I thus I disagree with the CD near consensus favoring gun control.

I had the distinct pleasure of participating in this walk. Although I don't believe that peace marches will have any positive effect on the ending this occupation, I do it anyway because I believe and know that our government is criminal and we must try to make as many people aware of this as possible. And if there is anyone protesting within a reasonable driving distance of where I live I have to go there and stand with them. I should do more.

You certainly have a point, mrraven500, but peace marches are still important, IMO. Although they certainly aren't going to fix things all by themselves, they're still important, for a number of reasons: if done well, which means with as much publicity as possible, they can help to make people in individual areas aware of just how wrong the Iraq War is, and they can also inspire people.

More importantly, though, we can't give up on them because if we do the government will think we've given up. But we can't rely on peace marches only; we still have to try as many nonviolent things as possible, such as inundating our elected officials with as many letters and emails as possible, sending editorials to our local papers and, most importantly, using the power of our diminishing purses by not buying what "they" want us to buy. If we stop buying gas-guzzling vehicles and drive as little as possible and grow our own food and buy food from local people and convince young people to STOP JOINING THE MILITARY, sooner or later the big corporations and the military will have no choice but to tell their puppets, the politicians, to do something for us so we'll buy their junk again. The thing is, they need us as much or more than we need them, because if we don't buy their stuff they'll go out of business. To distill all this, since Bush wants us to go shopping, shopping is what we should do as little of as possible.

Whatever we do, though, we're going to have to get together to do it, and peace marches are a symbol of solidarity, if nothing else.

I believe in the "Butterfly Effect".

You know it... a butterfly flaps it's wings in New York, and contributes - years later - to a typhoon in Asia.

When I stand on the sidewalk with my anti-war group, I'm making an imperceptible dent in the conciousness of the folks driving by.

Some honk their horns. It's the safest, most anonymous form of protest you can do... but for them, it is the first step, the hardest step.

Maybe the next step will be to say, "Well, I'm not so sure..." when the right-wing bully at the office starts spouting off at the water cooler. And maybe the bully will feel a little reluctantance before sounding off next time.

Maybe the step after that will be to sign a petition, write a letter to Congress, talk about the war with a neighbor.

An avalanche begins with the fall of a few tiny pebbles.

It's taking a long time, but I see it happening, right now.

jjojnjj that is frankly self delusion, as you typed that an Iraqi child was likely blown to bits by an American made bomb paid for by all our (U.S. citizen here) tax dollars. Sorry but the peace march did exactly nothing, the bombs fell yesterday and day before and will fall tomorrow and the day after. If we are naive and self deluded and continue to pursue ineffective "solutions" more people in Iraq will die period, end of story. Some things ARE zero sum games much as we would like to delude ourselves and think different. Although I used to think differently I am beginning to believe peace marches are naught but a mental palliative to soothe our own consciousnesses that we have done SOMETHING rather than searching for more effective solutions. This is sad to me BTW as someone who has done non violent activism for over 20 years. The beautiful movement of Dr, King worked because we had a responsive government in the U.S., sadly I think that is no longer the case, that the powers that be have learned to simply igonore us. Unless we make ourselves IMPOSSIBLE to ignore I believe they will simply continue to igonore us. Again I hope this is possible through non violent blockades or whatever but again sometimes even that level of escalation doesn't work. I spend a year on a mountain in Northern California in a attempt to save a small grove of old growth Redwood trees, we build tall barricades across the road, had tree sitters at 200 feet, dug a tunnel in the logging road and locked down at the lumber company and STILL the trees got cut. In other words with the best of intentions we failed to protect the weak through our non violent activism.

We need to brainstorm, people! Maybe computer hacking would be more effective and we need to recruit geeks, maybe billboards, who knows but I think we need to get over our denial and admit that the old tactics from the 60s aren't very effective in the 21st century. Any ideas of other things we could try?

Back in the '60's, or so I've read, the FBI used to infiltrate peaceful protests in an attempt to instigate the protesters to commit violent acts so the public would take a dim view of political protesting.

I read more than one website. So, today I am really struck by the story that is not on CD today.

Yesterday, the House voted to deny more funding for the war.

Yes, it was a proceedural thing. The Republicans are mad at Pelosi because she acts like a dictator, so they all turned around and voted against Pelosi's war funding bill because they didn't have a say in crafting it. Surely they'll turn around and vote in favor of some money for more death and destruction.

The fascinating part of the articles about this are the quotes from the Dem leadership. antiwar.com links to this WaPo article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/15/AR2008051502874_pf.html

Read the quotes from the Dem leaders. Read how upset they are that the war funding did not pass.

The key thing I've been trying to point out ever since the 2006 elections is that the Dem leadership has been publicly committed to making sure this war remains funded. They make noises opposing the war sometimes. That's surely because they can read the polls that say almost 80% of Americans now oppose the war. But the Dem leadership has been completely steady and predictable in their constant SUPPORT for more war money for death and destruction.

The best thing when I read this article earlier today is how it all comes out when the are mad that the war funding didn't pass. The Dem leadership is constant liars. They try to pretend they oppose the war while doing everything needed to make sure it continues. That phony facade slipped for a moment when the Republicans pulled their little maneuver. Now you get to see the truth ... the Democratic leadership mad and upset that the war funding didn't pass! Its priceless.

Thank you for marching. Don't be deterred, we, in Sunnyvale, CA, who stand on a street corner, which has a good deal of crosstown traffic, got the nasty behavior as well but it seems to be changing, ie, there are more folks that honk their horns in support than behave in an ugly manner. We just need to keep on and change who we vote for in November, ie be aware of those Democrats who are not acting as we wish re this War and who need to be replaced by someone who will, among other things, stop this carnage.

mrraven500 ... that's a brilliant little bit of writing.

You touch squarely on the truth. The society that could react to the 60's protests about civil rights and the Vietnam war doesn't exist any more. In fact, my take on it is that those bits of democracy have been deliberately destroyed by the people who want these policies and can't tolerate the idea that the American people might have other ideas.

I think the core of the American people is still good. What's been destroyed is all the mechanisms by which they could come together and act. In the 60's, we still had journalism. We still had news organizations that felt their most important duty was to inform and educate citizens. We still had a political process that would respond to the desires of citizens. We have none of this today.

I'm reminded of a time when I heard Ralph Nader talk. He was talking about how he used to be able to have a positive impact on society by doing the research, documenting what was wrong, and then presenting this and exposing the problem. From there, the media would cover it, citizens would demand action, government would act. Mr. Nader has said that the reason he runs for President is because this doesn't happen anymore. Nowadays, he can document and expose corporate crime, but then nothing happens.

We do need to organize something new. We can't keep repeating the tactics of the past because today is a different world from the past.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the protests. One thing we always have to be doing is to try to communicate with our fellow citizens. Since we are banned from corporate media, we have to find ways to do this. Protests ... standing by the road holding a sign ... are still a good way to do this.

But, do it knowing that's the impact you might have. Don't do it thinking the protest will change anything. And don't make me laugh about talking about signing a petition or writing a letter to a congresscritter. The message is clear that they don't give a damn. That's the society that's dead and gone.

We do need to act legally. We live in one of the most advanced police states in the history of the world in terms of the government spying on its citizens. Or, even if we might have to act outside the law because the law is crooked to make sure we are ignored, we have to make sure our actions are morally sound such that when the American people do hear about what we do that they react thinking "I could agree with that" or "that's not bad".

But, at some point, we are going to have to take on the existing economic and political systems. We are going to need to have mass actions that makes sure the economy can't just chug along with business as usual. We are going to have to abandon the corporate parties and the corporate candidates and try in mass to elect candidates that represent ourselves.

Read the last line of the Declaration of Independence some time. To create the free country that was once America, they had to pledge their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to that cause. Nothing less will do. Everyone who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776 knew that the King would hang them for it if they did not succeed. So that bit about pledging their lives was not just rhetoric. Somehow, we are going to need the same level of committment again if we want America to once again be a free country and a country with a government of the people, by the people and for the people.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

I am not discouraging people to go to to peace marches if it makes you feel good go for it, just don't deceive yourself that you are stopping the war when DICK Cheney says "so," shrug. Further I'm not encouraging anyone to throw bombs, at least not yet, as I said before I am unarmed, and I don't think it is yet necessary to engage in those sorts of tactics. What I am asking you to do is RETHINK our strategies because what we are doing now isn't working. The usual response to failure is regrouping and thoughtful rethinking of what happened, what can we do different, how can we improve? Etc. The left is supposed to be about questioning yet rarely do I see any questioning of whether the same old stale 60+ year old tactics of marches, etc, are actually helping the people we want to help. Violence of course is the LAST resort, what are some nonviolent things we could DO first to actually stop the war machine?
My intuition is , is that there is something we could we networked computers to STOP them, but what it actually is I haven't a clue. Does anyone else, or do you have any other ideas about non violent actions we could first besides marching and locking down? Serious question... Are we mature enough to question ourselves and our tactics? Or will we just repeat our mistakes because we can't think of anything different to do? Dedication is excellent, stubbornness in repeating things that aren't working? Not so much...

BTW keeping your powder dry and being against gun control does NOT equal advocating violence now or even soon, rather I see it as an insurance policy for if things get much worse and we see concentration camps, curfews, etc.

Last Friday, the walkers rested overnight in Cortland. we of the Cortland Community for Peace fed them with a potluck supper.

The protests don't have the effect we wish. But, we've got to try. All of the efforts, to varying degrees, are registering upon the conscious and the subconscious, helping to drive opinion on the occupation; enabling people to dare oppose government policy. Maybe it's becoming a landslide.

"...conservative and largely rural reaches of upstate New York - small communities that have sent many of their young men and women into the military right after high school and have paid a disproportionate price."

Disproportionately high, compared to Beverly Hills; Disproportionately low, compared to Fallujah.

Are the Democrats trying to keep the war going, despite their protestations to the contrary? Of course they are. We don't need to know that they're mad that their war-funding bill didn't go through to know this. It's been obvious for a long time.

What I'm not sure of is why they're trying to keep the war going. There are three different reasons that I can think of, and if we can determine which one of those it is we will be better able to figure out what to do about it:

Worst case scenario is that they're trying to keep the war going because they want to steal Iraq's oil just as much as Bush and Cheney and the neocon fundies do, and won't leave because they're afraid that other countries will be able to work out oil deals with Iraq if they do, and the US won't get any Iraq oil at all. If this is the case there may not be much we can do, UNLESS everyone currently in the military decides not to fight anymore, and nobody else is willing to enlist.

Another possibility, though, is that both the Republicans and Democrats realize that this war is ruining America and the world and they want to end it, but aren't sure how to do it without losing political power, so each side keeps on funding the war, waiting for the other side to make a mistake so it won't look like it's their fault. I think this is the most likely scenario, simply because no matter how corrupt our elected leaders are, they're not stupid (except for maybe Bush), and they know perfectly well that this war is destroying America, and the world, and they also know they'll go down with the ship unless they do something. Each side might be afraid that if they're the ones who cut the funding and something goes wrong when America leaves Iraq, they'll be blamed for it. So each side waits and waits and waits for the other to take the risk, and the soldiers are held hostage because our political leaders are afraid to make a mistake.

A third possibility is that the Democrats are afraid to end the war by cutting the funding, which is the only way they can do it right now, because they know the Republicans will use the old "you're not supporting the troops" tactic against them if they do, so they want things to get bad enough so that they get a really big numerical advantage after the 2008 elections and can use that advantage to end the war by passing a bill to fund the war enough to bring the troops home safely, even if all the Republicans vote against it. They could be thinking that if they can do this they'll be heroes and will be in political power forever.

What we can and should do if it's either of the last two reasons is far different than if it's the first one. If it's the second or third reason we should keep on protesting and start boycotting major corporations, including the media, and also educate each other so that we all realize that cutting the funding is not synonymous with not supporting the troops, and then make sure our representatives understand that we know this.

If it's the third reason, we should, besides doing the above, vote in as many Democrats as possible so they have the numerical advantage they need to end the war without cutting the funding to it. If we give them this and they don't end the war, then we'll know for sure that the first reason is the right one, and then the only way out would be if the troops refuse to fight anymore or if we get together and abandon both the Democrats and the Republican, and vote third party all the way across the board.

So what do we do now? First thing maybe, besides what we're already doing, is to educate each other so that we all know what is going on, and start doing every single damned thing we can do to convince America's young people not to join the military. Take the soldiers out of the equation and there can be no war. Teach young people that war is not a noble thing. Stop glorifying it. Teach them that it's better to be flipping burgers at McDonald's than it is to be killing people who didn't do anything to us in another country on the other side of the world. No soldiers = no war. Period.

Sorry for the ridiculously long post, but if we're going to start some kind of internet "educate each other to end this war" plan, I don't think we're going to get anywhere unless we can get people to stop joining the military. This is the simplest and most straightforward way to do this. It seems to me that parents and teachers ought to have more influence on what young Americans do than military recruiters do. This is something that every American adult who has a son or stepson or a daughter or a stepdaughter or a niece or a nephew can do, without needing to go off to a protest or whatever. And if we can do this, not only will we be able to end this war, we will be able to end all wars. New equation: no soldiers = no wars.

Why can't we make it cool to be nonviolent, to NOT be in the military?

Protest in a mad world is essential for some of us, although a minority. Of course it can be analyzed as just a way of obeying an internal need, call it a conscience. I am sickened by the lack of support I see around us street protestors week after week, year after year. Near complete apathy and resignation, except for those williing to risk a wave or smile. But if the masses don't support you, what the heck, gotta laugh it off. Some see the end approaching and have made their peace with that. Good. We will get what we deserve karmically. Goddess is just. It wont be pretty and we tried to tell you so.
In the meantime enjoy life and all that's in it. Om mani Padme Om....

Hmmm thoughtful post Ticonderoga, question though, do you have ANY substantive evidence that the corporate funded Dimorats want to end the war? If they really did so why don't they filibuster, EVER?

estebandido So if "Protest in a mad world is essential for some of us, although a minority. Of course it can be analyzed as just a way of obeying an internal need..." is that really helping? It's EXACTLY that line of feeling that makes me question what we are doing, if the war is to be stopped we need to figure out something other than just what makes us feel good. That is going to require discipline and reflection. Here's a thought, something perhaps we could learn from the capitalist world is to have quarterly and annual reports. Large groups like CD, counterpunch, democracy now, etc ought to issue frequent reports of where we won, where we lost, and solicit advice how we could do better perhaps in discussion forums separate from the news articles. Without accountability and feedback people tend to drift and IMO the very vital and important peace movement is drifting and repeating itself right now.

Here's a thought, maybe it wasn't "groovy man" to think such thoughts in the 60s and thus it's not part of our tradition to have formal written reviews, but it's no longer the 60s and we are losing so time for a rethink, right?

mrraven500, to answer your question, no I don't have any actual evidence that either party wants to end the war. The only reason why I think that both MAY want to end the war (but want to do it without losing political power and haven't figured out how to do this yet) is because this war is destroying the world and bankrupting the US and if I understand this then so must the republicans and democrats because they're intelligent and college educated people and I'm a unemployed guy who only graduated from high school. If I know it, then they know it.

Filibuster? I'm pretty sure Kucinich would have tried that if he were a Senator, instead of a Congressman. But why hasn't anyone else tried to do this? My guess would be because of how powerful the "support the troops" tactic is. That's what really prevents anyone from bringing the troops home.. And that's OUR fault. If that tactic didn't work the politicos couldn't (and wouldn't) use it. Every single damned time ANY politician says anything about trying to end the war all his or her political opponents have to do is fire out a "you're not supporting the troops" barb and that politician is made to look like a bad guy. Again, that's OUR fault, so this is why I think we should keep on protesting and writing letters to our local paper and etc: not to convince the politicians to do the right thing, but to convince our fellow Americans to do the right thing. What's the right thing? Getting it through our collective goddamned thick skulls that cutting funding to the war is not the same thing as not supporting the troops, and that keeping the troops in Iraq to kill and be killed and get PTSD in an unjust war is not supporting them. It's OUR stupid patriotism that's the problem. Protesting is about sending a message to US, not about sending it to the goverment. Okay, so we've been the targets of a decades-long propaganda program to glorify war, so it's not completely our fault that this "support the troops" tactic works, but there's enough of us that know better, so it's our responsibility to educate the ones who haven't figured it out yet. This is what protests are really for and is also why they have to be nonviolent.

We drive around in message T-shirts, with those cute little "support the troops" yellow magnet things on them, and as long as our politicians see those things they know that all they have to do to make one of their opponents look bad is to accuse that person of not supporting the troops. We buy these little yellow magnet things and we fall for this garbage, so it's our fault. We have to talk to each other, tell each other not to fall for this garbage. And protesting, done correctly, is one way to do this. So I don't think we should give up on protesting. I don't think we should give up on anything. But I do think that we have to realize that the key to this is to educate each other, and to make sure we stay educated. Education means learning that war is wrong and we can't do this, ever again. We got educated to a degree back in the Vietnam era but we didn't stay that way. We forgot what we learned. We got complacent and thought our government would never do anything that stupid and evil again. We were wrong, weren't we? Well, this time, if we can educate ourselves again, we can't forget again.

Sorry again for the long post. I guess I'm a little angry, although not at you. I'm angry at the government for conning us and I'm angry at Americans for falling for it and maybe I'm a little bit frustrated because progress is so slow. But we shouldn't quit. We've got to do whatever we can do, whether or not we can win.

ticonderoga May 16th, 2008 11:10 pm - "No soldiers = no war. Period."

Gotta take issue with that belief. I guess you have never heard of private armies like Blackwater. Right now, there are more people employed by Blackwater in Iraq than there are regular Army soldiers. They don't have to answer to anyone in our government. They are better paid and better equipped.

I'm all for doing everything we can to stop the recruiting (by the U.S. military) in our high schools, but it has to be combined with LOTS of teaching moments to raise awareness, using videos, speakers, discussion groups, etc. Otherwise, these kids who can't find decent jobs won't be able to resist either the recruiters for regular Army or the recruiters for Blackwater.

I think the Iraqis know there are two different classes of military over there, and one class is far more destructive than the other. BUT also they know both armies represent the United States.

We need to know that too.

I took a lab psychology course in college and the initial goal was simply to get the rat to press a bar. If the rat looked in the direction of the bar it was reinforced with food...just to get the rat to approach the bar was a beginning.

Applying that rat to America and its militarism...at this point in time...simply getting Bush out of office is a beginning.

Imo if the US continues along its present course of using war and violence for profit it will destroy itself. No one will have to do anything...except just watch it happen...

I'm disgusted by the use of torture by the US government against innocent people and by the use of war for profits.

Overall the US population cares more about its own economic security than about human rights values, while so many of them are going to church and declaring the US follows Christian values.

"It is 'better to jaw-jaw than to war-war,'"
Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill (1874–1965)

remarks at a White House luncheon, June 26, 1954

(And I did protest against the war early on and I am now quite bitter about what I saw from fellow Americans who opposed my views. America has many bullies.)

Of course I've heard of Blackwater. Doubt anyone who frequents this site has never heard of Blackwater. I guess I've got to take exception to something you said, though, and that is your statement that there are more Blackwater people in Iraq than US soldiers. I doubt that very much. Can you verify this somehow? A link?

And as far as Blackwater goes, my guess, and I admit this is a guess, is that the vast majority of Blackwater's employees are ex-soldiers, so if people wouldn't join the military than Blackwater wouldn't be able to hire them after they got out. So, again, no soldiers = no war.

Good point about the jobs. Fighting poverty would take care of almost all of our problems, actually. Why would anyone join the military if they could make a decent living outside the military?

Oh, and here's another link to the protest march that started this thread:http://nysmarchesforpeace.org/

Yo Ticoderoga & AuntEm,
I am a retied Army officer, aged 66 yrs young,
3 full tours in South Viet-nam, 27 years of service
for you & our nation. 4 tours to Turkey (lived
mostly off post, went to weddings, B-B-Qs etc), pass for a Turkish person) So I know a little about the
middle east. From this back ground, American is helping set a people (Iran) free AND giving hope for
all in the middle east. Isral & Turkey are really the
only FREE (like us - people can vote) in this area.
But now the common person has hope. Forget the oil
trip (maybe be true but what else is happening is a
wonder - freedom - common folks CAN vote - women are
respected, as they should be). Years from now history
will say this was one of Americas best ideas.
No troops - no Army, you say! Wow! have either of
you ever been overseas? Why do you think every one
comes to the USA. We are free with respect for all,
even if you disagree with them. To keep this way of
life requires some to become military folks, even if
for a few years. So when you try to get the young men
& women NOT to join you do them, yourself & your nation
a wrong. When good men & women do nothing, evil will
grow. Cost of freedom requires free good men & women
to step forward. Our way of life is NOT perfect BUT it
is the best system in the whole world. So please do
think before you block good folks coming into the military. We (you & I) need them to come stand at the
wall before the barbarians & go forward to being peace
& freedom for the whole world one day. Otherwise
darkness will fall, evil will grow & you will become a
slave. Hope you will vote & thank a vet or military
person for your freedom that cost you little but them
a lot.
respectfully,
George
your favoright neocon, combat retired army officer vet
& Texican

Go Protestors!

"Major Hutton" American soldiers are killing civilians in Iraq by the hundreds of thousands which is the same sort of war crime the Nazis were prosecuted for at Nuremberg and a waste of our precious resources we should be using to build a sustainable infrastructure for the 21st century. This war and Vietnam will forever be a stain on our (U.S. citizen here) history, so I feel no pride or support for U.S. soldiers at this point in history. If the military stayed at home and stayed out of entangling foreign engagements as the founding fathers advised then perhaps the military would be worthy of pride as it stands now as an imperialist conquering army most certainly not. The U.S. went off the path of being a small self sustaining Republic around the time of the Spanish American war and we have paid the price of the rest of the world rightly hating us ever since. Some of us are trying to right things and bring us back to a sustainable society that feeds and clothes all members in our society and is more decentralized in it's scope of power, but it seems it will be a long hard slog, and people such as yourself who shill for empire are NOT helping.

The barbarian is first and foremost the human that believes in barbarity. The first casualty of war is the truth- as the old saw goes and has been AMPLY PROVEN.

The assertion that our system is not perfect but it is the best system in the world is a tragicomic denial of history. We DO have good aspects and bad.
WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.

Not all wars are the same, major hutton. You (if you are a major) should know this. Plenty of Iraq veterans know this; that's why Iraq Veterans Against the War exists.

So, when the US stops using the soldiers as pawns to satisfy the financial desires of Big Corporations and Oil Companies and Weapons Manufacturers, I'll stop writing posts about trying to convince young people not to join the military. And maybe you can use your influence as a long-time military man to convince your local military recruiters to hold off on recruiting young people at least until they graduate from high school.

major hutton--You said "America is helping set a people (Iran) free. . ." I guess they're all the same to you: Iran/Iraq, Sunni/Shia--what's the difference? They should all be grateful to our great armed forces for liberating/slaughtering them.

If we never act unless we can feel certain our actions will have an effect, we will never take any action. It is good to do what you feel is right and detach from outcomes. It really isn't about whether or not you are effective, whatever that means---it's about standing up and doing what you feel is right. It's called having integrity. It's called being couragreous.

guliper:

Since you feel that way, here's my middle finger salute to you en englaise (!)

major hutton:

That's a load of jukejive!
You're a chowderhead if you believe everything they taught you all that phony patriotic claptrap.

I did a couple of tours in`Nam as well as assignments all over the globe...as someone who was there, I can tell you that you're either the dumbest motherf*cker who put on a uniform or someone who volunteerily put on the blinkers to get fast tracked up the ranks.

You've been conned by your Imperious Leaders, teachers, clergy, Mr. Sheep in military garb. How does it feel knowing you actually worked for the Scum of the Earth, whose kids were enjoying the perks on your dime?

Major hutton

Turkey was one of the nations most opposed to the war in Iraq. Economic screws by the Bush administration were placed on Turkey to let American planes fly overhead to go into Iraq. They did not give in..and they were hurting economically at the time...so this was real pressure.

Part of the reason for not wanting to destabilize Iraq was probably the Turkish concern about their southern border with Iraq and the PKK and the Kurds.

People often come to the US because they want to make money in dollars...but that is changing a sthe dollar diminishes in value. There are many nations around the world that give freedom and they have universal health care...unlike America.

Yo diablorojo, ticonderoga, mrsaven500 & blessthe
beasts,
Is not freedom great, thanks to your vets of course. Yep, I am a Major, from E1 to E7 then O2
to O4. Did 3 full tours in Nam, dinke dow.
You all are free to "finger" & BS again, thanks to
your vets. Sure NONE of you ever served or you
would know better. True, we do have our problems
but in time we do work them out. Vote, try it, may
surprise you. Been to the middle east, anyone?
Did 4 tours to Turkey. Yep lived off post &
trained Turkish & Greek military folks. Speak
Turkish. Been there - done that. Freedome is never
free, of course you never served so what do you
know? Parsite is one who lives off the work of
others. Know what I mean. Why do you think everyone in the world wants to come to the USA?
Cause we are free, parsites would not understand
me. Only decent thinking folks would. Sat for
you who uses the "finger", shows your level of
intel.
by by
George
your favoright neocon, retired army combat officer
& Texican

What happened when the US wanted Turkey to support the invasion of Iraq?

This is from March 3,2003

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june03/turkey.html

You can read it in detail at the link..but here is a quote:

......................

"In return, Washington offered a financial package of $5 billion in aid and $10 billion in loans to cushion the Turkish economy from the impact of any war.

The money would be important to Turkey, which suffered severe economic losses following the 1991 Persian Gulf War. The war kept tourists from visiting the region, shut down an oil pipeline from Iraq, and dropped the country's economic growth rate from 5 percent to 1 percent.

On Saturday the Turkish parliament rejected the arrangement by three votes, but senior Turkish officials indicated that the head of the ruling political party, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, would ask parliament members to reconsider their decision, according to the New York Times"
.......................

So Turkey was not one of the coalition that went into Iraq..and the invasion did not start from Turkish soil...even after being offered 15 billion dollars.

Also now Turkey has military incursions into northern Iraq because of activity by the PKK and some of the weapons being used in violent crimes in Turkey are traced back to weapons given to Iraqi forces by the US.

Also of concern are the oil fields around Kirkuk ..there are many people who are descended from Turks who live in that area of Iraq.

Mjor hutton if he was in Turkey imo was meeting with like minded people..his personality probably would exclude people who think differently from associating with him...

Major hutton, you're not the only person who has served in the military: http://ivaw.org/faq

When I protested against the war others there were military veterans. One was a retired military doctor. Another not only was a vet but also had his children in the military and stationed in Italy.

But people driving by in old cars would shout out.."Get a job" to retired vets..because the news media never took the time to interview the people protesting, to find out who they were.

major hutton

I have a friend who is turkish and living there now. She sends me by accident sometimes things written in Turkish. If you know Turkish, can you translate this:

Gönderin, blog oluşturun ve dünyanızı aileniz ve arkadaşlarınızla paylaşın - Windows Live Spaces, hayatınızı paylaşmak daha da kolaylaştı! Şimdi ücretsiz Windows Live Alanınıza gidin Buraya tıkla!

And imo your nationalistic militarism is not proptecting the US. You are endangering us.

Yo Boo,
ticonderoga, yep you are correct, "I am not the
only one who has served in the military", sorry if I gave you that impression. I did serve 4 tours in
Turkey, do speak Turkish & trave most major cities in Turkey to include easter Turkey. First NATO
command/comm group to do so. Did you serve? Guessed that. Ever been to the middle east? Guessed that too. See I have been there - done that.
colleen, the Turks are moslem and have to live in
that area. Next to the Jewish nation, this nation
likes America. It does have it citizens vote & keeps Islem & state apart. The Kurds are in the
easter part of Turkey. Some not all, want their own nation carved out of Turkey. Sort like Mexico
wants Calif & Texas back. Can't let that happen
of course. So the PPK (a hard core commie party)
is trying to do it by murder & force. So they are
put down - hard. Reasonable to me. Keep in mind
Kurds - Turkish ones, are allowed to become
Turkish citizens. Like we do with those south of
the border. Given time & the right way they too
become US citizens. Fair is fair. And yes Colleen,I did serve 8 years (4 tours) in Turkey,
do speak Turkish & could pass as a easter Turk.
Did go to weddings, BBQs etc & live out in my own
apartment. Know customs, respect the commone folk
as well as their decent government.
Now I am just trying to discuss this in a respectfull manner with all. Let you know, from one who has been there.
diablorojo & ticonderoga<
The whole world does not hate the USA, most really want to come here & live. It is true & very
sad of many things in our past we have done that
was wrong. But human beings are not perfect.
Hopefully, in time we too will grow and do right.
That is why we can vote - thanks to all that did
serve & sacrifice in the military to GIVE you this
gift "freedom". If you have been in the middle east or other parts (red china - red cuba) you
would know & help make the whole world a better
place by helping with education for all (women and
men) and freedom with a vote. No we are not hated
envy, yet but if we are so hate why do everyone -
everone - want to become a American? If you feel
this is such a evil place - go to North korea & see
the big difference in BS & truth. Even now you
are free to BS or speak the truth thanks to your
past - present - future military folks that do
sacrifice for you ALL. This it the only hope for
human kind or else the darkness will cover us all
and you will be slaves.
GOOD DAY,
George
your favoright neocon, retired army combat officer
E-1 to E-7, O2 to O4 vet, & Texican

Did you, major hutton, take the time to check out the link I provided? It led to a statement by military men as to why they think the Iraq War is wrong. If you did, it would be interesting to hear what you have to say about what they say. If you didn't, maybe you should.

From the Turkish Daily News

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=76984

Turkey 'most anti-US country' in world, poll says

Friday, June 29, 2007

quote from linked article:

Favorable views of the United States have fallen to single digits in Turkey, which emerged as the world's "most anti-US country" in this year's annual global poll by the Pew Research Center.

But as the Turkish dislike and distrust of the United States strengthens, the standings of other leading countries, entities and leaders, including the European Union, Iran and Russia, have also suffered in the Turkish public's eyes, according to this year's results of the Pew Global Attitudes Project announced here on late Wednesday.

Only nine percent of Turks have favorable views of the United States, while a vast majority at 83 percent holds the opposite understanding, Pew said. Similarly, U.S. President George Bush's foreign policy is favored by only two percent of the Turkish public.

Turkish backing for the United States, which was 52 percent in 2000, has since then declined steadily in following years.

Pew director Andrew Kohut told PBS television that when last year's poll indicated 12 percent Turkish support for the United States, he did not think the figure would fall down further. "But it did," he said.

Major Hutton there are other countries than "North Korea" or the U.S. Sweden comes to mind as a country that takes care of it's people, promotes free speech, and stays out of others countries pointless wars, and yes I would consider going there if I had the money and ajob lined up.