A "mythical condition?" How about cops who use tasers being handed mythical paychecks-followed by mythical pensions? Do you think that would work?

Yes, that would work.

5 yrs ago tactical teams had tasers. 2 yrs ago all supervisors had tasers. Next, all front line officers will have tasers. All officers must fire a taser twice a year for certification at $40-50 per training round . Simple math, minimum $80 per officer a yr. How many cops are in The U.S. and Canada? Taser International can afford the best lobbyists and the best lawyers.

Follow the money trail.
It will always lead to the political trail end.
Such is our way of life . . .

don't taze me bro.....

Pigs.

Years ago it was the billy, black jack, etc. Then martial arts weapons, dumbchucks, ASP, etc.
When departments got tired of paying out lawsuits for police brutality they found other aleged "Non-Lethal" weapons, pepper spray, sticky foam, tear gas, Tasers, etc.
No matter what the cities did, the law suits continued.

The thing that the cities failed to see is that the lawsuits are caused by poorly trained, violent, or sadistic police, not by the weapons that they use. It also appears that police administrators are sold a bill of goods by manafacturers of these IMPROPERLY tested aleged non-leathal weapons. Everybody is looking for the 'magic bullet', and there's no such thing.

There's no such thing as a completely non-leathal weapon in the hands of a improperly trained person.

But as I said in a previous post on tasers; I'd still rather get hit by a taser than by a bullet.

Of course we would all rather get, "hit by a taser than by a bullet", and that is the point that Taser keeps making. Unfortunately that is not the point. The cops are there to improve on situations not cause death. Sometimes the best way is to back off and let things cool down but cops are trained to deal with situations NOW and backing off does not seem to be part of their training. They need to be taught that a guy going berserk at the airport is not the end of the world or that a confused 82 year old with a pocket knife is not going to kill anyone. If cops took their time and didn't use potentially deadly force in non life threatening situations most of the 300 people killed by Tasers would still be alive.

I don't care about the volts, I can do 50k easy. It's the Amperes...that's what puts the tingle in your toes.

You put ANY weapon in the hands of marginally literate high school graduates who identify themselves as a POWER figure with a gun, that person will lose any humanity they might possess in a NY minute - they kill people - it's the culture. That's why you get the smiling Officer Bill and his friendly K-9 buddy, Rex - in the white suburbs, then you get Viking Sarg and Max the killer Shepherd - for poor people and minorities - containment and suppression for the masses.

Any Citizen exercising any Rights 'guaranteed' under the BOR can EXPECT to be tasered at the very least by some snarling animal with a badge and gun. At the very least. Ask the kid that Mr. Kerry, our former presidential candidate, had tasered for asking him impolite questions. If they are not one of the CHOSEN people with the melanin deficiency, then they get the broomstick and the 12 volt interrogation in the basement.

Cops are TRAINED under SOP to ESCALATE any situation and then respond with overwhelming force - THAT IS STANDARD POLICE OPERATING PROCEDURES FOR LA TO NY. America.

What's your number.

Peece.

Easy enough to fix. If using a taser kills someone, charge the person who used it with murder. Don't give them a free pass just because they are a police officer.

We always hear from the law and order types that tough laws are needed as a deterent. Well, lets apply that here. Along with the fundamental American concept that 'no man is above the law'.

Do the crime, serve the time.

If the user formed part of the circuit the "ridiculously inappropriate" uses would cease.

It's absolutely true, cops always go for the taser, even when people are just ignoring them.

The local police here just killed a guy with a taser. This article is right on the money, cops don't think to use any kind of force OTHER then a taser these days. If you don't listen to a cop, they taze you.

Take the tasers away.

Excited delirium?!? Sounds like the state the Bush crowd has been in since September 11, 2001.

Something too many forget is that by it's nature, police work attracts people who are arrogant bullys, power-and-control freaks, racists, and politically fascist.

I've been to too instances of cops gratutiously using their pepper spray, tazers, and dogs on nonviolent political protestors to conclude anything else.

Luckylefy is so right; the SOP is escalate to create a pretext for attack.

It is clear that Edward1793 is not involved in much street-based political activism.

USAn:
You're right about not being involved much in "Street Based Political Activism". Not much anymore. I was during the 60's, 70's, before tasers. Now I got a bit old to get in the trenches.
Unless the protests are in my small town, or close by I don't do it. Much rather write letters to the editor, (due to my being in the bible belt, they seem to ignore most of them), support the effort through donations, and voice my opinion on sites like these.

Sorry that you probably think that I'm an armchair activist but after many confrontations with the police during V-N protests, unfair pot laws, and minority abuses, I felt that I've been there, done that, and don't see that it's caused any long term change, so I thought I'd try another way.
FYI: it don't matter what party is in office, minority abuses continue, pot laws got more strict and costly, police have not changed, they've just got a bigger array of weapons to hurt people with, and political/economic based war still continues.

I appreciate those that see fit to be a street activitist, and travel over the country to protest but I did my time and now I don't.

The taser is not a tool, like a hammer a screwdriver, or a saw. It is a potentially deadly weapon like a gun, a bomb, or a missile.
*************************************

"It is estimated that approximately 1% of the general population are psychopaths. They are overrepresented in prison systems, politics, law enforcement agencies, law firms, and in the media."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath

RE: Excited delirium is not a recognized medical diagnosis, he said, but is a "dubious disorder" used by Taser International in its training of police in Canada and the U.S.

I wonder who invented the phrase "Excited Delirium" to fit a specific set of symptoms. The cops would not know a real disorder from a fake one and, if they hear this phrase from more than a couple of sources (all conveniently tied with Taser) they will just automatically assume that it's real.

Taser is going after medical examiners:
Judge rules for Taser in cause-of-death decisions

The Arizona Republic

Taser International has fired a warning shot at medical examiners across the country.
The Scottsdale-based stun gun manufacturer increasingly is targeting state and county medical examiners with lawsuits and lobbying efforts to reverse and prevent medical rulings that Tasers contributed to someone's death.
That effort on Friday helped lead an Ohio judge's order to remove Taser's name from three Summit County Medical Examiner autopsies that had ruled the stun gun contributed to three men's deaths.

"We will hold people accountable and responsible for untrue statements," Taser spokesman Steve Tuttle said earlier this week. "If that includes medical examiners, it includes medical examiners."Many medical examiners, who are charged with determining the official causes of death, view the Scottsdale-based company's efforts as disturbing, the spokesman for the National Association of Medical Examiners says.

"It is dangerously close to intimidation," says Jeff Jentzen, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners. "At this point, we adamantly reject the fact that people can be sued for medical opinions that they make."

In the Ohio case, the judge said the county offered no medical, scientific or electrical evidence to justify finding the stun gun was a factor in the deaths of two men in 2005 and another in 2006. Taser and the City of Akron sued the medical examiner, saying examiners in the case lacked the proper training to evaluate Tasers.

Chief Medical Examiner Lisa Kohler said that her examiners rightly concluded Taser contributed to the deaths and said county lawyers will appeal the judge's ruling.

"I would not be going forward with this if I did not believe in the rulings," she said.

The judge's order could have an immediate impact on criminal cases against five Summit County sheriff's deputies who were charged in the 2006 "homicide" of a jail inmate. Instead of homicide, the judge ordered the cause of death changed to "undetermined."

Laying a foundation

Before Friday's verdict, legal experts said Taser's victory could lay the foundation for other cases against dozens of medical examiners who have ruled that shocks from the 50,000-volt stun gun can be fatal.

Medical examiners say they're concerned that Taser's aggressive moves could have a chilling effect on doctors, preventing them from blaming Tasers for deaths even when evidence exists.

Taser still faces lawsuits from family members of victims who claim the stun gun is deadly and the company has not done proper medical research. They allege police officers are using the weapon as a compliance tool against people who do not pose significant threats.

But the company has won an impressive number of legal victories and said it has only paid out settlements in a few cases involving police officer injuries. To date, the company says more than 60 cases have been dismissed.

Taser stun guns are a fixture among police. It is used by more than 12,000 police agencies across the country, and by every major law enforcement agency in the Valley. Many police agencies credit the gun with preventing deaths and injuries to officers and suspects.

Taser maintains they are safe

Taser maintains that its guns have not caused a death or serious injury. Officials say company-funded and independent medical studies show the stun guns are safe.

More than two dozen medical examiners across the country have found the stun gun at least partly responsible in the deaths of suspects.

Since 1999, more than 300 people have died in North America following police Taser shocks. The vast majority of those deaths have not been linked to the stun gun. But medical examiners have cited the gun directly or could not rule it out as a factor in nearly 10 percent of the cases, an The Arizona Republic investigation found.

Medical examiners, who typically work for the county or state, are supposed to provide independent scientific analysis about the cause of someone's death. Their rulings are recognized by courts and the police as the official cause of death.

Taser officials have repeatedly said that medical examiners who rule against the stun gun are not qualified to judge whether a Taser was a factor in someone's death. In court disputes, it often presents opposing testimony from company representatives, doctors and medical examiners paid by the firm.

"The qualifications of a medical examiner depend on their professional and educational background as well as their level of understanding of Taser technology and the underlying effects of electricity upon the human body," Tuttle said.

The company's tactics worry Jentzen, a former medical examiner and current director of autopsy and forensics at the University of Michigan.

"I am concerned any time there is a person who is an advocate who may have a conflict of interest," he says.

Jentzen says there are few cases where companies have taken the position that coroners can't be trusted to evaluate their product's involvement in someone's death, and none so aggressively as Taser.

Taser targets rulings

In addition to Ohio, Taser sued a coroner in Indiana who had ruled that Taser caused the death of a man in 2004.

Several coroners have also reported being challenged by Taser, says Jentzen. Among them was a Cook County, Ill., medical examiner who ruled Taser shocks contributed to the death of a 54-year-old man in 2005. Taser dismissed the autopsy report as not credible and said the medical examiner was unqualified. The company demanded a judicial review.

Taser also has asked coroners to reverse opinions. An Anderson, S.C., deputy coroner said Taser representatives showed up in his office on the same day that he ruled Taser shocks contributed to a man's death in 2004.

Charlie Boseman said Taser wanted him to remove any reference to the stun gun from his report. He refused.

Coroners told to bone up

Taser officials have provided coroners reams of medical research in support of the stun gun following a death.

Tuttle says it is up to medical examiners to do the proper research, read the papers and perform tests before making a ruling on a death involving a Taser.The Las Vegas Review-Journal reported in 2007 that a county medical examiner based half of his testimony at a coroner's inquest on information supplied by Taser. The medical examiner did not disclose to a jury that he met with Taser officials and reviewed the company's literature before testifying that the stun gun's role in a death was debatable.

In Summit County, Kohler said she has received volumes of medical studies and literature from Taser, all suggesting that the rulings in her cases are wrong.

In Maricopa County, at least 10 people have died following police Taser strikes since 2002. In a 2004 case, the medical examiner's office ruled that Taser shocks contributed to a Mesa man's death. Autopsy reports were unavailable for review this week by The Republic.

Neither Chief Medical Examiner Mark Fischione nor Taser would discuss what, if any, involvement the company had with medical examiners performing autopsies in the cases.

Fischione did not respond to repeated interview requests.

Taser for years touted autopsy reports as proof of the stun gun's safety. Company officials told police departments and shareholders that no medical examiner had cited the stun gun in an autopsy report. But The Republic's investigation found that 27 medical examiners concluded that the gun caused, contributed to or could not be ruled out in deaths.

'Excited delirium' blamed in Taser-related deaths

Taser advocates an alternative cause-of-death scenario called excited delirium. The condition, which is not recognized as a diagnosis in official medical manuals, is used to describe deaths of suspects who become so agitated by drugs, psychosis or poor health that their bodies shut down during struggles with police.

Excited delirium has been cited in police custody-death cases for decades. It is now being blamed more and more by medical examiners for deaths that occur following a police Taser strike, including at least one in Maricopa County in recent years.

Taser has funded excited delirium studies and has been involved in promoting its research. The company maintains that excited delirium is a valid syndrome, and some doctors say it will gain acceptance as more research is conducted.

Mark Schlosberg, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California who has worked on several Taser cases, argued that excited delirium has become a convenient way to explain away deaths that occur at the hands of police.

"There are plenty of medical examiners who are very skeptical of excited delirium," he added. "But that is not what Taser is promoting . . . They attribute almost all of the deaths following a Taser strike to excited delirium."

Civilian lasers can be bought over the web by anyone having no criminal record. These cycle for 30 seconds rather than the much shorter police cycle, as the longer cycle time gives the user time to escape from a hazardous situation. Reloads are $25, but the cheapest taser unit (the C2) runs about $350. So they're available, but not cheap, and there are thousands out there owned by more or less regular people who have been sold on the concept of personal protection by Taser, Inc.. How many taser deaths have you heard about that resulted from actions by an ordinary citizen? I think the number is zero. The problem isn't the weapon: it's the user. Our police have morphed into a bunch of bullying thugs. If you think it's bad now, wait until all the Blackwater types come home, when and if we ever manage to stop fighting mideast wars. We need some serious laws to control these thugs.

The objective of the sales is to continue denying that tasers are lethal. When police and civilians use tasers, they do not believe they would kill anybody. As the mother of a developmentally disabled mute young man with a seizure disorder who takes a psychotropic drug and gets stressed easily, I can tell you that I am scared. The police where he lives have tasers. He has a medical profile that would make him more likely to die from the use of a taser.

F the fascists. Our country is in danger and we are being lulled to sleep with gas tax cuts and stimulus checks. Rise up, vote out your local sheriffs; support anti-taser police forces. For f**ks sake can't we pay police a decent wage so they can recruit something other than neocon neanderthals?

rocker68:

Don't know where you live but most police in the North and large and medium sized cities are making a decent wage with good retirement and full medical.
With OT and other income, $40K-$70K is common, and that's for patrol officers. Supervisors and administrators make a lot more.

The problem is in the recruitment system. Detroit police in the 1980's hired non-violent felons. I'm sure that other cities went through the same problems.
Many small and medium sized departments don't have the money for in depth psychological testing.

Higher pay isn't the way to recruit and keep stable, emotionally mature, level headed officers.
1. Change the Military structure of police depts.
2. Change the macho self-image of depts.
3. Enforce the department rule and regs.(if any, if not get some written up)
4. Have a State run testing facility for all police. (That would eliminate the favoritism and politics in hiring.)
5. Increase educational standards for hiring police.
6. Require continuing education for police, in both law, phycology, and minority relations.

Thats a start, enough to get things going.

What a bunch of idiots. You obviously have never read a Departments Policies and Procedures to DE-ESCALATE situations, etc. Training is continous, Continuing Ed. is encouraged and re-imbursed. Internal Investigations are exhaustive and punishments are swift and often harsh. You crybabies only want a cop when someone steals your backpack and granola bars. You have no clue what goes on. As a former law enforcement officer who has been tased during training I know first hand the extensive training that goes into certification and the responsibility that comes with it. (Also, the ride is quite a rush! I actually volunteer to take the hit, should a case go to court). Yes, a few misuse authority. But to lump all L.E. into the knuckledraggers club shows just what a bunch of phony a**holes you are, with your snide remarks. Anyone who calls cops facists can blow me.

legmanlar is spot on - The cops are not fascists, they are just a bunch of dumbasses in a state of excited delirium. Let's taser them!!

RE: - The local police here just killed a guy with a taser.

Do you have a link to the coverage on the incident?

RE: - "We will hold people accountable and responsible for untrue statements," Taser spokesman Steve Tuttle said earlier this week. "If that includes medical examiners, it includes medical examiners."

Heard about this story. Posted Canadian coverage of it on the previous Taser thread. The judge heading the taser inquiry in BC was very upset by this practice of what he referred to as "intimidation".

RE: - The judge's order could have an immediate impact on criminal cases against five Summit County sheriff's deputies who were charged in the 2006 "homicide" of a jail inmate. Instead of homicide, the judge ordered the cause of death changed to "undetermined."

Heard about this too. I hope this company goes down big because it seems to be treating research as more of a PR tool and less as something that should be subjected to scientific integrity.

You heard of the person who testified that the shocks in one study were delivered in the back - and the guy figured that it was done this way to avoid hitting the heart. Seems that where one is hit by a taser makes a difference.

RE: - You obviously have never read a Departments Policies and Procedures to DE-ESCALATE situations, etc.

Speaking of inproper use of a Taser - did you hear about the Brandon Police officer who brought his taser to a party and demonstrated the taser on anyone who wanted to see what it was like.

Police Taser allegedly used for party fun

Police pulled out a Taser weapon at a house party and zapped people who wanted to feel the jolt, officials have been told.

The stun gun was reportedly brought by an on-duty officer to the party, where civilians were socializing with off-duty officers. Some partygoers asked to be Tasered, and allegedly they were.

The report of recreational Tasering has prompted a high-level performance management review that involves as many as four officers.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4093750p-4691874c.html

It's not a party til someone gets tasered

he Brandon police department is investigating allegations that some of its officers agreed to Taser people at a party, simply because they were curious about what it would feel like. ...

Some officers don't consider the incident a big deal, noting a member of the Brandon media was Tasered as part of an organized demonstration when the force introduced the devices in June 2006.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071214.wtaser14/BNStory/National?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20071214.wtaser14

Tasers save lives, police chiefs tell public inquiry

here is no uniform policy among municipal police forces in British Columbia on the use of the Taser, says the president of the B.C. Association of Municipal Chiefs of Police.

Bob Rich, who is also deputy chief of the Vancouver Police Department, told a B.C. public inquiry into the use of Tasers that steps are being taken to address that, but right now policies on the use of force are left to each municipal department.

"The lack of clarity, the lack of a provincial policy, and different opinions is something that has made it more difficult and I look forward to the process of making it clear for our officers what we actually expect them to do,'' Rich testified Wednesday.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080514/taser_police_use_080514/20080514?hub=Canada

"What a bunch of idiots."

"You crybabies only want a cop when someone steals your backpack and granola bars."

"But to lump all L.E. into the knuckledraggers club shows just what a bunch of phony a**holes you are, with your snide remarks. Anyone who calls cops facists can blow me."

legmanlar, I'm not really sure if you were serious or satirical with the above statements, but if you were serious you certainly have done your best to convince people on this site that at least one police officer belongs in the "knuckledraggers" club.

Legmanlar,

I don't think anybody around here wants to blow you, though the cops are fascists. Could I tase you instead?

During any altercation both parties are subject to the effects of adrenaline. This begs the question as to which side is suffering "excited delerium". LEO's are generally well trained, they do not wish to be injured in an altercation any more than anyone else. TASERs have reduced the "need" for dialog and crisis management. By simply zapping the "suspect' the situation is stabilized. This frees up the LEO so they can hit the street sooner and Police Depts do not have staffing issues. TASER sells more product. Departmments need fewer officers. The general public is furtur trivialized in the name of expedenency,profits, and budgets. Gotta love it

Sounds like legmanlar is in a state of excited delerium. Seriously, what other kind of person would actually enjoy being tasered?

However, thanks once again for helping to disprove the myth that police officers are nothing more than semi-literate bullys who wear a badge instead of a swastika.

Some people will be brutal all the time. All the people will be brutal some of the time. And that's enough to create a fascist state.
Thank Hitler there are insightful, honest judges out there to protect us.

This is a point of despair: for so many years we, the people, have been trying to subdue our own police departments across this nation. I think it proves that if you give a man a stick he will hit you with it.
Denmark only hires cops who complete a four year degree in a university for police studies. That is a prerequisite. In England for decades cops carried nothing but a stick. No gun. That may have changed with the spread of weapons worldwide. But the concept worked for a long time.
Most situations of violence can be snipped off at the beginning. It depends on how the police approach each situation. there should be a prohibiton on tasering anyone over 70 or under 12. No pregnant women, no white-haired grannies, etc. Any tasering of screamming maniacs should be prohibited also. Suicide bombers do not scream maniacally. People screaming maniacally most likely do not have a gun either. IF they did they would be shooting maniacally way before the police got there.
Police have guns. Let's watch and remember how they use them. 51 bullets in a car or a body is over-kill. It shows intent to kill. At what point to you feel safe? After 100 bullets have been fired into a person? Or 10, or 1,000? How about a single shot into a thigh?
How about letting Sean Bell just drive away with his best man and his groomsman? How about taking his license number down and going into the club and asking if any crimes had been committed. OK. None. OK. Adios.
How many cops does it take to shoot a man openly answering his door?
Hello, may i help you?
BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM...250 times. what? you say he went to scratch his balls and you felt threatened. Cops feel threatened too much. They are cowards.
I drive a taxi. Total strangers sit behind me. there is no bullet-proof glass in my town. Some people are jerks. We have a button and a TV camera in every taxi (both probably fake) and if you depend on those items you are probably already dead.
if i get scared, i stop, get out, and go for coffee. they can try to rob the whole cafe with me in it. but they squawk a bit and i tell 'em i'm off. i had a gun pressed to my head one time. i gave up the money and i was scared.
imagine a cop with a gun pressed to the back of his head! unarmed. cry like a baby.
they are cowards. scared shitless babies. and probably pumped up with fear...of the people...they are suposed to serve...who are all scared of them as well.
this is fascism on the street level.
marines and army brats blow up cars full of....families, in Iraq. They might have been terrorists or bombers....oh yeah, suicide bombers who bring their whole familly along for the end-all. 800 bullets into a car ful of mom, dad, 3 kids and one grannie. cowards. cruelly maniacal gun-happy lunatics. we're breeding them over there. and hiring them over here.
we need to address this issue, raise taxes on the rich and train our cops on how to be better and smarter at dealing with the people they serve.
ever watch a nurse walk up to a crazy man and see him sit down mumbling to himself. imagine, a woman with no gun would make a better cop than any man in almost every case. she could always duck and cover or call for backup. do we need cop-murdered people littering our streets?
we also need to get the insane off the streets and into treatment.
there are no homeless people in Denmark, or maybe all of Europe.
how about that?
could it be unrestained capitalism we're talking about?
we need a lot less fear in our lives, that's for sure.

Legmanlar has provided us with an excellent illustration of the ignorant, combative, macho, arrogant, brutal, AND crude nature of all too many law enforcement "officers". And of course I don't mean all of them, but there damned well shouldn't be any, given their powers and responsibilities. Ya Sure ... Fat Chance.

These sorts shouldn't be tased. They should be emasculated to shut off the testosterone, then perhaps they could become legitimate members of a working society.

RE: This frees up the LEO so they can hit the street sooner and Police Depts do not have staffing issues.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one - tasering for next to nothing frees a cop up sooner to go to the next call.

I think that most cops have at least slightly more integrity than they had in Super Bad.

Many cops are completely convinced that tasers are harmless. One is more apt to use a tool one deems completely harmless than a tool that could cause either long term health effects or even death.

RE: imagine a cop with a gun pressed to the back of his head! unarmed. cry like a baby.

I would be crying like a baby. There is a spot on the back of my head between the neck and where it curves out that is painful to the touch. If I lay on my back, it hurts. If I lean forward for more than a couple of minutes it hurts. And if I chew down on an apple (or something equally as hard) it hurts. I don't see a gun being pushed against it as less painful.

You obviously have never read a Departments Policies and Procedures to DE-ESCALATE situations, etc.
______________________________________

I almost read the Philadelphia (PA) PD's Policies and Procedures to de-escalate situations-- but a gentle breeze came and blew it clear away.

It's a shame, too; I would've been the first one to read it.

It's touching, though, that a "former law enforcement officer" would still display so much devotion and respect for the job left behind.

Taser is not doing very well at the inquiry in BC right now (watching it on TV).

I remember the incident where a 9 year old school girl was tasered for sassing her teacher...

Galen, this is not as bad as the tasering teacher:

B.C. transit cops deny Tasering non-paying rider

Metro Vancouver's transit cops are denying charges that they Tasered a non-paying rider despite their own incident reports that said they did.

Insp. Bob Houston of the Greater Vancouver Transit Police said in a news conference that they "would never Taser those in our care for the non-payment of fare."

But the reports released under the Freedom of Information Act say the opposite.

One report stated: "subject ran from officer during a fare blitz . . . Taser was deployed when subject fled."

"We don't believe they did anything wrong," Houston said. "They followed the policy."

As Canada's only armed transit police, Greater Vancouver Transit Police's Tasers "may be utilized over a non-complaint individual."

When asked if the definition was too vague and if the policy might be wrong, Houston responded, "We depend on the judgment of our members."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080418/trransit_bc_080418/20080418/

Most police officers are good people who try to do a good job. However, they are a gang, just like the military, firefighters, street gangs, etc. When one of their own goes too far, they all line up to support him. That is where they are all at least somewhat bad. (Of course, they create a lot of crime via the war on drugs, but that is another story.)

It would be interesting to tabulate suspect and bystander deaths due to various causes. I suspect deaths due to gunfire have not gone down, just taser deaths have gone up.