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Federal Judge Rules Iraq KBR ‘Rape Victim’ Can Seek Trial In US

by Sonia Verma

An American woman who claims that she was gang-raped by coworkers in Baghdad while employed by Halliburton/KBR, a defence contractor, can take her case to trial, a federal judge has ruled.0512 03 1

The decision has opened the door for other American women who have reported sexual assaults in similar circumstances to challenge clauses in their employment contracts restricting such claims to private arbitration and keeping them out of court.

It comes at a time when the US Congress is examining whether the Government is adequately protecting contractors who allege sexual assault.

In Britain, MPs are investigating allegations of sexual harassment and abuse at the Embassy in Baghdad. The allegations also concern employees of KBR, which was hired to maintain the Embassy’s premises. The Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee has written to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to ask for a full explanation.

The ruling in America centres on the case of Jamie Leigh Jones, a 23-year-old Texan who alleges she was drugged and raped in her mixed sleeping quarters by fellow contract workers while working in technical support for KBR at Camp Hope in July 2005. “I woke up naked and I knew something really wrong had happened to me,” Ms Jones told The Times. “I threw on my robe and I went to the restroom. I was bleeding between my legs.”

After she reported the alleged assault, she said she was confined to a shipping container and told that if she left Iraq to seek medical attention she would not have a job on her return.

Ms Jones said she convinced one of the men guarding her to lend her his mobile phone. She rang her father, who contacted a US senator to secure her release and return home.

Back in America, Ms Jones tried to file a lawsuit against her employer. However, KBR, which split from Halliburton last year, requires its Iraq-bound employees to agree to take personnel disputes to private arbitration rather than sue companies in the US’s public courts. Critics say the arrangement has discouraged some women from going public with allegations.

Ms Jones’s lawyer argued that the clause should not apply to a claim involving sexual assault because it was not a “work-related” matter. In his decision, US District Judge Keith Ellison found in her favour, writing: “This court does not believe that plaintiff’s bedroom should be considered the workplace, even though her housing was provided by her employer.”

Asked how the decision could affect Iraqi employees of KBR who have alleged sexual assault, Stephanie Morris, Ms Jones’s lawyer, said it would encourage others to come forward. “The decision means that anybody who is sexually assaulted can bring the claim against their employer to a court of law.” It is unclear if Iraqi employees of KBR are required to sign contracts binding them to private arbitration.

When Ms Jones’s story captured media attention in December it led to Congressional hearings, with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee convening this month to discuss closing the legal loopholes for prosecuting over violent crimes allegedly committed by Americans in war zones.

Dawn Leamon, an American paramedic working for a foreign subsidiary of KBR at Camp Harper, near Basra, testified that she was abused by a soldier and a coworker after drinking a cocktail. She told The Times that KBR employees discouraged her from reporting the alleged rape and pressured her into signing a false statement.

Her lawyer, Daniel Ross, described the decision as “a crack in the wall of KBR’s arbitration fortress”, but said the company would probably appeal.

KBR issued a statement saying: “KBR in no way condones or tolerates sexual harassment . . . Any reported allegation of sexual harassment is taken seriously and thoroughly investigated.”

© 2008 Times Online

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52 Comments so far

  1. Daniel David May 12th, 2008 12:06 pm

    I hope Judge Ellison’s ruling stands. I have to wonder, though, if this isn’t the kind of case that corporations will put millions into appealing endlessly with a potential for the Roberts Court to ultimately overturn—maybe years from now.

    This is one I would “like” to be on fast forward so that all appeals are finished before the election of 2008, but, of course, that can’t happen. Judges matter. I don’t know who appointed Ellison, but I’ll bet a cookie that Scalia does not agree with him. The questions for voters are ALWAYS: What kind of judges do YOU want? How can you get them?

  2. KEM PATRICK May 12th, 2008 12:33 pm

    About time. Sure they’ll fight it. They have to.

  3. whatfools May 12th, 2008 12:56 pm

    For these sorts of crimes justice is normally served … with a kitchen knife.

  4. Nietzsche May 12th, 2008 1:11 pm

    Too bad Norman Rockwell is no longer around to do a painting of that photograph.

    That poor lady is a picture of the real America.

  5. zhongman May 12th, 2008 1:25 pm

    These companies have been using legal gobbledigook to get around responsibility for the conditions of employment. Just like the Bush administration’s legal arguments, these contracts are there to thwart the rule of law not enhance them. I don’t care what country you’re in, if you are an American working for an American company, then US law must reign supreme over your and their actions. You should not be allowed to contract around US criminal law. This neocon mob mentality that has been in control of the executive these past 7+ years must held accountable.

  6. AD May 12th, 2008 1:59 pm

    KBR is alying through its damn teeth!

  7. TheLorax May 12th, 2008 2:27 pm

    A war criminal is raped by other war criminals. So what? If you volunteer to work for Halliburton and support war profiteering, getting gang raped should be the least of your worries. It’s her fault for being over there in the first place.

  8. KEM PATRICK May 12th, 2008 2:31 pm

    I’m glad we don’t have to work or live near one another ~LORAX~.

  9. TheLorax May 12th, 2008 2:39 pm

    I’m sorry that you feel that way Kem.

  10. iammyself May 12th, 2008 2:50 pm

    That’s just ugly, Lorax.

  11. TheLorax May 12th, 2008 2:56 pm

    It’s cynical but this woman is no innocent victim. She joined a war profiteering enterprise to make money off the Iraq conflict. That makes her a war criminal. I’m not justifying rape but it’s annoying to see people gathering behind her. The people that raped her should be tried and sentenced. After that, they should toss her in prison too.

  12. iammyself May 12th, 2008 2:59 pm

    “A war criminal is raped by other war criminals. So what?”

    Well, it sounds as if you were justifying rape.

  13. iammyself May 12th, 2008 3:04 pm

    The thing I get from this article is the same old shit that happens in all war related endeavors - brutality.

    I still wonder why any woman would want to join in.

  14. bidelo May 12th, 2008 3:20 pm

    Lorax,

    What you are saying is that rape is a fair punishment for war criminals. I think most of us on the left would think imprisonment more apt.

  15. auspiciousbunny May 12th, 2008 3:23 pm

    I wonder why. Gee, she probably was not taught in high school that she would have to figure out how to pay to live in an expensive society where the cost of living is not necessarily based on an increase in her own earning power– or about how girls and then women are incessantly plied and assaulted with images that make them seem like sex objects, or make them seem infantile and the object of hostility, and/or ridculous.

    She probably wasn’t taught she might have to raise children alone, or that she would be gauged for her basic needs by corporations run by (male) billionaires and supported by (more or less male) congress, and that she would still make less money than a man at the same kind of work.

    Or maybe she knew this already and just needed to survive, my fellow progressive intellectual.

  16. iammyself May 12th, 2008 3:32 pm

    “Or maybe she knew this already and just needed to survive, my fellow progressive intellectual.”

    Point taken.

    And my point was on the brutality of war. IMO, war is not a means to a good or sane occupation. What happened to her was heinous and wrong (did you read my other posts?) and the law should deal with her rapists. But war as a profession - for any gender - is not valid, sane, or a means to a decent survival.

  17. TheLorax May 12th, 2008 3:36 pm

    auspicious-
    War Profiteering is criminal regardless of the reasons. If she “just needed to survive” she could do just about anything. Working for KBR is NOT “just trying to survive”. She made a conscious decision to try to make money off Iraqi blood. Are you justifying KBR/Halliburton operations in Iraq? Please elaborate.

    “So what?” was a poor choice of words on my part and indeed it does sound like I am justifying rape. What I meant by “So What?” is that I don’t feel pity for what she is going through because the only reason she was in that circumstance in the first place is because she herself is a criminal. Rape is never justifiable and imprisonment IS the appropriate method of punishment.

  18. KEM PATRICK May 12th, 2008 4:13 pm

    If you pay taxes, you are supporting the war in Iraq also Lorax. Are you a war criminal? You know what? All Iraqis may think that of every American.

    Do you honestly believe that every person who applied for a job with Hallivurton or KBR did so with the thought that they would be able to go to Iraq and murder Iraqis and deserved to be raped by co-workers?

    And any woman who applied for a job with any company deserves to be raped, they are asking for it? I always thought you were more decent and sensible than that.

  19. KEM PATRICK May 12th, 2008 4:43 pm

    22

  20. TheLorax May 12th, 2008 5:09 pm

    Kem-
    Please re-read my 4:13pm post.

    If someone decides to walk down an alleyway alone at night in a bad section of town and is subsequently robbed, do you feel so much sympathy for that person? They should know better than to do that. Anyone with sense knows it’s a bad idea. It’s a lesson learned.

    If 2 thieves commit a brutal robbery and afterwards, 1 of them stabs the other in the back to get all the loot for himself where is all the sympathy for the “poor victim”? If he hadn’t committed the crime in the first place it wouldn’t have happened.

    Jamie Leigh Jones had NO BUSINESS being in Iraq or working for KBR. The fact she was raped is notwithstanding. She could just have easily been killed by insurgents. She put herself into a dangerous situation knowingly and willingly. It is not our country, we are not wanted there, and we need to remove our presence. PERIOD. I don’t believe for a second that this woman is blissfully ignorant of her company’s operations and that she’s a poor little victim in this case. Only an idiot runs out into a highway and is shocked when they get hit by a car.

  21. Doug Lago May 12th, 2008 6:44 pm

    Whew! Now THAT’S a discussion.

    A few points:

    We Americans are compelled to pay our income taxes, which the criminally elected government chooses to use to wage a murderous campaign in Iraq. If you refuse to pay your income taxes you get thrown in jail, probably raped and then get told “We have no sympathy for you becuase you should have known better than to not pay your income tax, dummy” So no, paying the gov some dough at knife point doesd not make anyone a war criminal. Though if you voted for Bush TWICE you’re just as guilty as the planners and perpetrators of this war.

    Working for a company so entrenched in the blood for money business, however, is a choice that can easily be avoided. (and no, they didn’t sign up to murder Iraqis Kem, just to make money off of other people murdering them) The Blackwaters and Halliburtons are all guilty of the same war crimes that the Bush administration is, as is anyone callous or stupid enough to work for them. The soldiers in the real military are another story entirely. If they went to Iraq as willing participant in the shadowy war on terror and support what the criminal in chief is doing over there then they too are war criminals. Otherwise they also serve with the point of a spear in their backs.

    At the crux of this biscuit I sort of agree with Lorax. Not that she deserved it in any way and not that the rapists shouldn’t be punished, but I feel WAY more sorry for your average Iraqi than I do for little miss war profiteer.

  22. Joni Rose May 12th, 2008 6:45 pm

    Lorax, how nice that you are so morally superior that you can sit in judgement of these rape victims. Whatever choices or circumstances that led them to employment with these companies do not matter. They are victims of violent crimes. Period. Their employers put them in situations that were potentially dangerous and failed to adequately protect them. And now KRB and Halliburton are trying to deny them justice. That was the main point of the article.

    And don’t forget that in some towns, the big defense contractor is the only place that provides decent wages, medical benefits, and a 401(k). Your implication that people who work for them are bloodthirsty war profiteers deserving of whatever violence comes their way is beyond reprehensible.

  23. KEM PATRICK May 12th, 2008 6:54 pm

    I feel just as sorry for the Iraqis but not any more so. You guys don’t have a clue of what her positon or reasoning was for taking a job with KBR, or tht KBR was affiliated with Halliburton, etc. That’s bullshit. That was an uncalled for comment, just downright mean and and nasty and you know it, or you should.

    No, I don’t feel like I’m a war criminal because I pay taxes, that’s because I don’t want to feel that way. But if one lives in a shit house, they smell like shit and I’d bet most Iraqis blame all of us Americans for what they are now enduring.

  24. Joni Rose May 12th, 2008 6:55 pm

    I have no patience for this “blame the victim” crap.

    So, Lorax and Doug, if the women had been working for some humanitarian aid organization in Iraq and had been brutally gang raped by their coworkers, THEN would they deserve justice? Or a least a little sympathy?

  25. Joni Rose May 12th, 2008 6:57 pm

    Thank you, Kem. I’m with you on this.

  26. wild_watcher May 12th, 2008 6:58 pm

    i think the point of this article is to point out the fact that there is limited ‘corporate justice’ as an employee stationed in a war zone. because of the authority of your company and all the legal clauses signed and agreed to that have eclipsed or set aside regular law. the point of congressional hearings was to bear that out..that KBR mismanagement of the incidence{s} has played out wrongly, or at least ineffectual and now judge Ellison’s decision will begin to set litigation into a different venue: regular law, based on the loophole in the company clauses: ” This court does not believe that plaintiff’s bedroom should be considered the workplace, even though her housing was provided by her employer.”
    So what if you run into the highway..YOU have the right of way as a pedestrian to not be runover. you could think of the posted laws upon our highways that says you will slow down or move over for any emergency vehicle..futher there is signage of our law that states: give em a break..hit a road worker and face prison and steep fines. It doesn’t make YOU and idiot if that is part of your occupational hazard. It makes you a law breaker if you hit the pedestrian.

    wild

  27. NateW May 12th, 2008 10:07 pm

    Perhaps the reason why the judge ruled for the former KBR employee raped in Iraq is akin to why the US Supreme Court ruled in Marbury vs. Madison, it set the precedent that the court has jurisdiction. Considering the legal nether world that Dubya, Cheney, & Co. established with the Iraq fiasco, it is not surprising that the judicial branch of the US government has decided to reassert itself as the Bush crime family’s time in the White House winds down. Congress may have and continue to abrogate its’ role in checking executive power, but it appears as if some of the judiciary has belatedly decided that enough is enough.

  28. twistoflex May 12th, 2008 10:59 pm

    Why didn’t she work at McDonald’s for minimal wage like the rest of us?

    She doesn’t need to work for KBR .

  29. angel2shine May 12th, 2008 11:04 pm

    ONE NATION UNDER GREED!

    It’s all tied together, the war mentally, rape, whores, pillage and plunder.

    God help us all, if we are not careful about who we vote for.

    Their is no flag grand enough to cover these atrocitys.

  30. wishiwasinagreenstate May 12th, 2008 11:45 pm

    Kem Patrick and Joni Rose, I am with you all the way. I can’t believe there are posters on common dreams arrogant enough to blame the victim. Women who are abused by contractors or the military are victims of the war machine. Period. It does not matter if they are Iraqi or American and shady legal loopholes for contractors should not prevent women from getting justice for crimes just because they took place on foreign soil. With posters like TheLorax maybe they should change the site name to Common Nightmares. While we’re at it, maybe you could declare that all our mangled young soldiers joining up for college money deserved what they got too, according to your line of reasoning.

  31. Edward1793 May 13th, 2008 12:35 am

    OK now that she can have her case tried in U.S. courts, KBR is sure to hit her with a SLAPP suit for violating confidentially agreements with them. Cheney and Prince will probably invoke “States Secret Act” and by the time her case actually gets to court, KBR will have hidden any evidence of any crime.

    Not trying to be the bearer of doom and gloom, but with the money and influence that KBR and Blackwater have, and the condition of our legal system, Dawn has little hope of actually getting anywhere. Chances are she’ll be paid hush money to go away.

    The good thing that this has done is to bring to light the horrible actions of the assholes that assume that contracting in a war zone gives them a license to kill, rape, and pillage without having to face the consequences.

  32. luckylefty May 13th, 2008 12:46 am

    Men always rape women they regard as gender slaves, second class humans, ordained inferior by the flat-earth genocidal blood god from the ME. Some men regard all women as gender slaves. You know the ones. The women who get $0.76 on the $ in wages, when they can get a job that pays more than $7.00/hr. The ones who cannot terminate a pregnancy in 85% of the counties in America even if they can afford it. The ones who can no longer afford the spiraling costs of the pill, that’s when they can find a (male) pharmacist willing to fill the damn script. Those gender slaves. Soldiers call’em, “Damn uppity bitches.” Or worse.

    For Aryan males to feel ’supreme’ women cannot be equals, they MUST be gender slaves - and the 30 cent weaseldick will kill for it. To the corp, to the bone. Now that’s what I call a deeply held American value. That’s a value that Patriotic American Males have been fighting for since the pill and abortion - total female suppression, gender slavery with a bullet. Pass the JD and the blow, and yeah, read me another bit from that Old Testament. They knew how to treat the damn bitches, fucking slaves man. The way its supposed to be, a Xrstian Nation, run by rich white men.

    Oh yeah baby, blame the bitch.

    Pieces of 8.

  33. KEM PATRICK May 13th, 2008 1:52 am

    I have the feeling she could not be bought off for any amount ~EDWARD~, but I’d fear for my life if I were her. If you heard the story, they were probably going to kill her in Iraq. They had her locked up in a metal conex shipping container. One guard took pity on her had gave her a cell phone to use.

    She contacted her father in the States and he contacted the American embassy in Iraq and they came and rescured her. They were likely going to murder her for reporting the rape. She’s very lucky to be alive.

    I’d say she has a good chance of winning too, when witnesses testify in court and how KBR has stalled the process so far and she’s not the ony one who suffered the same type of sexual abuse there with the same company. We’ll see.

  34. KEM PATRICK May 13th, 2008 2:00 am

    Hey ~Twistoflex~, if a person advances to a manager position at McDonalds, they get a dollar an hour raise. That’s better than minimum wage. Plus they all get a free meal and drinks.

    If it wasn’t for all of these fast food joints and Wal-Marts, our unemployment figures would be 20% or more. Thank god for the big corporations, it’s a job when one gets laid off from ATnT, Ford or GM, etc.

  35. 4thefuture May 13th, 2008 6:19 am

    The “They got what was coming to them,” attitude is one that I usually associate with the neo-con, fundamentalist point of view.

    I guess I understand that there is a sense of anger about people making money off of the US government’s war crimes, but it is never OK to say it’s OK to rape someone. Perhaps that anger momentarily clouded more considered judgment on the part of some posters. Being the kind of person who can only empathize with those most like (or in agreement with) me ends up making me the same as those I oppose; e.g., GWB.

    And certainly it is a good thing to start making Haliburton legally responsible for their crimes, any and all their crimes. I want to see this case continue.

  36. greatbear215 May 13th, 2008 9:42 am

    She should sue-and she should sue big!

  37. mo42 May 13th, 2008 10:26 am

    KBR..”requires its Iraq-bound employeees to agree to take personnel disputes to private arbitration rather than sue companies in the US public courts” Since when is rape a “personnel dispute”, rather than an ugly, violent crime????

  38. TheLorax May 13th, 2008 11:22 am

    Well I didn’t make any friends with my opinion that’s for sure. Some nice punches though. Actually I rarely find myself disagreeing with people on here.
    At 6:19am 4thefuture wrote : “it is a good thing to start making Haliburton legally responsible for their crimes, any and all their crimes.”
    Please ask yourself “WHO IS HALLIBURTON?”. As far as I’m concerned Halliburton is Mr. Lesar and all the employees that work for him. In order for KBR, Halliburton, Blackwater etc. to continue, they require employees. So how is the employee not responsible?
    I never said it was “OK that she got raped” or “she got what she deserved”. The posters above are putting those words in my mouth. I expressed and continue to have an indifferent attitude toward her ordeal because I consider her a war criminal. The people that raped her I also consider criminals and all of them should be thrown in prison.

    I do not understand how you can consider Halliburton a criminal organization that should pay for it’s crimes, but at the same time absolve it’s employees of wrongdoing because they “need a job”. That makes no sense to me. Somebody please elaborate.

    Let me be clear, there is no circumstance under which rape could ever be justified. Violent crime is never excusable under any possible or impossible condition. When you take it upon yourself to commit criminal acts, work for a criminal organization, or involve yourself in seedy affairs, it is HIGHLY LIKELY that you will become a victim. Common sense should tell you that. Ms. Jones did not deserve to be raped, but she put herself into a position that violence upon her person was likely. Either she has no common sense or she’s an idiot. I have no sympathy.

  39. jungleboy May 13th, 2008 11:49 am

    KBR issued a statement saying: “KBR in no way condones or tolerates sexual harassment . . . Any reported allegation of sexual harassment is taken seriously and thoroughly investigated.”

    Just like a seattle times article stated that Dyncorp has had 9 cases of sexual slave trading brought against it that have just vanished from the books and never seen in court.

    Hey lorax, you put your foot in your mouth, I know what you mean but if it was your daughter you might think differently…maybe. “She is gonna do what she is gonna do.” Its the corporation that makes the monster here. Just like other companies ease off saftey standards to make an extra dollar, they convince employees/managers that it is necessary to do the dirty deed.( not “that” dirty deed maybe)

    The real question is who is supplying the date rape drugs to these guys who are so far from home, it must be part of their supplies? Do you think its just carried at the local 7-11?

    Its illegal in the states to put razor blades around your car stereo and the (fingerless) car jacker can sue you if you do. She is an idiot. She should have used razor blades.

  40. JohnR May 13th, 2008 12:21 pm

    I think The Lorax is conflating two differenr moral issues with nothing useful as the result. If someone is allowed to be brutalized as a consequence of working for some company that is engaged in a destructive enterprise, then all of us would merit the same treatment. By what reckoning does complicity or tolerance of a small-scale crime justify or ameliorate the effects of the macroscopic one? Was Jamie Lee Jones a mercenary or was she a maid or janitor at the embassy? It’s a crass and sadistic statement to say, “she got what she deserved”.

  41. Treefrog May 13th, 2008 12:26 pm

    When you take a job always ask what happened to the person you are replacing. Don’t take a job if anyone that did it before you was gang raped and the rapists are not punished and there is no policy to protect it from happening again. If gang rape is considered a mediation issue then they need to put that on the job description.

  42. Bob K. May 13th, 2008 1:46 pm

    How many here know that Obama sponsored legislation that would sweep these rapes under the rug? And not just rapes. Murder and torture too.

    The article above is regarding civil lawsuits. But, what about criminal prosecution? Here’s the skinny: there’s a loophole in the law regarding criminal prosecution of contractors and mercenaries working outside the U.S. They can’t be prosecuted under the criminal laws of Iraq and Afghanistan, and many aren’t covered under U.S. laws either. For perspective, see this Salon article: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/09/18/blackwater/print.html

    So, Obama introduced the “Transparency and Accountability in Military and Security Contracting Act of 2007″ (S. 674) on February 16, 2007. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s110-674

    The bill would clarify the “legal status of contract personnel.” Section 7(a) places all contractors under the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 2000, which previously covered only civilian employees of the Department of Defense and contractors working for the DOD. The problem: in seven years there have only been one or two prosecutions under MEJA.

    Section 7(b) of Obama’s bill expresses the “Sense of the Congress” that the DOD should “arrest and detain” contractors who commit crimes. Two problems. First, “Sense of Congress” resolutions do not make law and are not enforceable. Second, it puts the DOD in charge of implementing the law. That’s putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

    In summary, the Obama bill addresses the legal loophole issue by “clarifying” the legal status of contractors in a way that shunts any possible criminal prosecution of their crimes into a dead-end system. Fortunately, Obama’s bill never made it out of committee. Still, Obamicans often cite the bill as one of Obama’s legislative “accomplishments.”

    Do you think it’s OK for U.S. contractors to rape women in Iraq and Afghanistan, including women who are U.S. citizens? Then support Obama. His bill whitewashes the problem.

  43. KEM PATRICK May 13th, 2008 3:03 pm

    Say you have a 20 year old daughter who is well qualifed with computer work and she applies for a good paying job with Halliburton, Exxon, IBM, Goodyear, KBR or whatever. She’s hired by KBR and they offer to send her to one of their branches in a foreign country where she will be working with mostly male co-workers. She’s a nice gal, pretty, intelligent and a good worker, fun and loves life and people.

    She accepts the position. __Automatically__, she is FULLY aware, that she is subject to be sexually abused, gang raped and or even murdered and therefore whatever may happen to her in that respect is her own stupid fault and deserves NO sympathy.

    I got it ~LORAX~. I understand where you are coming from now. ___ I just don’t agree with you on this issue however. And I usually do agree with you on many other issues. I’m very surprised at you being “mean spirited” and obtuse about it and you continue to be so.

    Also, your opinion that every person who has served in the military in Iraq, or has a civilian job and worked in Iraq is a war criminal is realy silly. You can say it and believe whatever you wish, that’s your perogative, but it’s silly in my opinion. If you are correct in your beliefs on that issue and you pay taxes, which our taxes indeed do support the war in Iraq, you are then also a guilty war criminal. ___ That’s just as silly as your premise.

  44. TheLorax May 13th, 2008 3:18 pm

    Kem-
    We are disagreeing regarding the definition of “war criminal”. The Nazi’s were just “doing their job” but got executed for it. They didn’t invent the problem, just went along with it.
    I ask you this: What level of support can you give to a war profiteering enterprise before becoming a war criminal? Janitor? Secretary? Supply Clerk? Financial Planner? Field Operative? CEO?
    Please elaborate so I can understand what acceptable level of support you can give to a criminal organization before being called a criminal.

  45. KEM PATRICK May 13th, 2008 5:05 pm

    ~LORAX~ There were over a million
    German soldiers who fought in WW 2 who were not tried, jailed or executed for war crimes. There were millions of German citizens who helped their war effort who were never chargedm jailed, or executed for war rimes. That appleid to Itlaian and Japanese citizens.

    We even broght many German people here to become citiizens of the United States who fought or workded with Hitler’s Nazis. Your argument in that regard is foolish and you should realize it.

    Exactly how many Germans were tried, jailed or executed for war crimes? How many Japanese, Italians, and French were tried a war criminals? Thosse were people who had committed war crimes.

    I have explained that I don’t beleive this woman is a war criminal and if she is according to your judgment, so are you. You may as well just forget it and believe whatever you wish. I believe you posted an ignorant and a very mean comment about her, and I’m not alone with that belief. I’m not going to rreply to any more of your posts on this issue. Rave on all you like.

  46. Uncorked May 13th, 2008 5:45 pm

    The flaw with Lorax’s argument is that not everyone sees the war in Iraq as a criminal act. I am sure Pat Tillman and other soldiers like him volunteered under the mindset that they were committing a brave deed. Lorax has obviously never known anyone who joined the U.S. forces with good intentions. Misguided, most of them believe their president’s lies. That takes nothing away from their individual honorable intent to serve their country and to provide protection to foreign soil.

    In that vein, a U.S. contractor is no more a war criminal than a Pat Tillman. Pat Tillman shouldn’t and didn’t expect to get fragged any more than this contractor should have expected to have been raped.

  47. bidelo May 13th, 2008 6:52 pm

    Lorax,

    I agree with Kem on this one. It’s a rather conservative argument to use. It’s similar to the innocent who has been executed, then people saying he did some other bad stuff anyway (say a robbery), so it’s OK. Conservatives use this argument all the time. It’s the question of the punishment fitting the crime. People like Rumsfeld and Bush deserve to be prosecuted for war crimes and then sent to jail for the rest of their lives, but a low level employee like this certainly doesn’t deserve to be raped. Kem’s right in this regard, there were millions of Germans who were never proscuted because they were less culpable, there’s degrees to this, it’s not black and white.

  48. peaceman May 14th, 2008 2:45 am

    The way I see it, rape cannot be justified, no matter what. But I presumeably understand The Lorax’s position and see where he’s coming from. After all these years of scandal-ridden Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater and the rest of these imperialistic companies who are taking over Iraq and taking part in the first ‘Holocaust’ of the 21st Century, why do folks seek employment with them? For the proverbial “thirty pieces of silver?”

    Of course the money’s good, tax advantages for working overseas, FTA (fun, travel, and adventure) and thoughts of bravado, working in a dangerous environment with all these tough, he-men there to protect you. Sometimes these male protectors prefer culminating their sexual thoughts with or without the consent of the female victim.
    No woman should ever have to fear men or rape in an ideal world, but we haven’t made much progress in personal developement.

    I think what The Lorax is saying is that by looking for some big bucks, you take the job, pretending the work you perform is okay and rationalize why you’re taking part in crimes against humanity (directly or indirectly) for the most corrupt regime in American History. Mind you: her male co-workers made the same choice and could care less about the Iraqi people, for the most part. DISCLAIMER: Not all these employees would assault a woman. I know that, but nonetheless she did place herself in an unusual position for whatever reason. Still, she is the victim of a violent crime and I feel for her.

  49. Jaguara May 14th, 2008 10:54 am

    No woman deserves to be raped, ever.

    One thing to think about…if this is what our soldiers and citizen’s are willing to do to our own…then what are they doing to the local Iraqi women? They probably don’t even bother to shoo the children out of the room…Actually, maybe I really don’t want to think about it.

    Another thought that someone else has mentioned in these threads…we are allowing this behaviour overseas…and the non-reaction and protection is even a form of endorsement…EMPOWERING this type of behaviour. What happens when these people come ‘home’. Do you think they will leave these habits behind? Do you really?

    Jaguara

  50. peaceman May 14th, 2008 7:15 pm

    Presence: 10:39am post-very good!

  51. peaceman May 14th, 2008 9:48 pm

    Presence: Don’t feel bad at all. You are doing much in advancing human evolution in personal development by your kind words and gentle nature. To my way of thinking, that’s real manliness, not the macho type. The latter has caused tremendous grief and an inestimable amount of suffering over the eons. In fact, I came up with a new slogan on Common Dreams last month and actually received a few compliments for it.

    “I’d rather be called a wimp than a bully.”

    The former doesn’t bother me, the latter name does.

  52. peaceman May 15th, 2008 12:04 am

    I agree. I agree! No more on this. Good post, Presence.

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