The Loathsome Smearing of Israel's Critics
In the US and Britain, there is a campaign to smear anybody who tries to describe the plight of the Palestinian people. It is an attempt to intimidate and silence -- and to a large degree, it works. There is nobody these self-appointed spokesmen for Israel will not attack as anti-Jewish: liberal Jews, rabbis, even Holocaust survivors.
My own case isn't especially important, but it illustrates how the wider process of intimidation works. I have worked undercover at both the Finsbury Park mosque and among neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers to expose the Jew-hatred there; when I went on the Islam Channel to challenge the anti-Semitism of Islamists, I received a rash of death threats calling me "a Jew-lover", "a Zionist-homo pig" and more.
Ah, but wait. I have also reported from Gaza and the West Bank. Last week, I wrote an article that described how untreated sewage was being pumped from illegal Israeli settlements on to Palestinian land, contaminating their reservoirs. This isn't controversial. It has been documented by Friends of the Earth, and I have seen it with my own eyes.
The response? There was little attempt to dispute the facts I offered. Instead, some of the most high profile "pro-Israel" writers and media monitoring groups -- including Honest Reporting and Camera -- said I an anti-Jewish bigot akin to Joseph Goebbels and Mahmoud Ahmadinejadh, while Melanie Phillips even linked the stabbing of two Jewish people in North London to articles like mine. Vast numbers of e-mails came flooding in calling for me to be sacked.
Any attempt to describe accurately the situation for Palestinians is met like this. If you recount the pumping of sewage onto Palestinian land, "Honest Reporting" claims you are reviving the anti-Semitic myth of Jews "poisoning the wells." If you interview a woman whose baby died in 2002 because she was detained -- in labour -- by Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint within the West Bank, "Honest Reporting" will say you didn't explain "the real cause": the election of Hamas in, um, 2006. And on, and on.
The former editor of Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz, David Landau, calls the behaviour of these groups "nascent McCarthyism". Those responsible hold extreme positions of their own that place them way to the right of most Israelis. Alan Dershowitz and Melanie Phillips are two of the most prominent figures sent in to attack anyone who disagrees with the Israeli right. Dershowitz is a lawyer, Harvard professor and author of The Case For Israel. He sees ethnic cleansing as a trifling matter, writing: "Political solutions often require the movement of people, and such movement is not always voluntary ... It is a fifth-rate issue analogous in many respects to some massive urban renewal." If a prominent American figure takes a position on Israel to the left of this, Dershowitz often takes to the airwaves to call them anti-Semites and bigots.
The journalist Melanie Phillips performs a similar role in Britain. Last year a group called Independent Jewish Voices was established with this mission statement: "Palestinians and Israelis alike have the right to peace and security." Jews including Mike Leigh, Stephen Fry and Rabbi David Goldberg joined. Phillips swiftly dubbed them "Jews For Genocide", and said they "encourage" the "killers" of Jews. Where does this come from? She says the Palestinians are an "artificial" people who can be collectively punished because they are "a terrorist population". She believes that while "individual Palestinians may deserve compassion, their cause amounts to Holocaust denial as a national project". Honest Reporting quotes Phillips as a model of reliable reporting.
These individuals spray accusations of anti-Semitism so liberally that by their standards, a majority of Jewish Israelis have anti-Semitic tendencies. Dershowitz said Jimmy Carter's decision to speak to the elected Hamas government "border[ed] on anti-Semitism." A Ha'aretz poll last month found that 64 per cent of Israelis want their government to do just that.
As US President, Jimmy Carter showed his commitment to Israel by giving it more aid than anywhere else and brokering the only peace deal with an Arab regime the country has ever enjoyed. He also wants to see a safe and secure Palestine alongside it -- so last year he wrote a book called Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid. It is a bland and factual canter through the major human rights reports. There is nothing there you can't read in the mainstream Israeli press every day. Carter's comparison of life on the West Bank (not within Israel) to Apartheid South Africa is not new. The West Bank is ruled in the interests of a small Jewish minority; it is bisected by roads for the Jewish settlers from which Palestinians are banned. The Israeli human rights group B'tselem says this "bears striking similarities to the racist Apartheid regime". Yet for repeating these facts in the US, Carter has widely called "a racist". Several universities have even refused to let the ex-President speak to their students.
These campus battles often succeed. Norman Finkelstein is a political scientist in the US whose parents were both Jewish survivors of the Warsaw ghetto and the Nazi concentration camps. They lost every blood relative. He made his reputation exposing a hoax called From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters which claimed that Palestine was virtually empty when Zionist settlers arrived, and the people claiming to be Palestinians were mostly impostors who had come from local areas to cash in. Finkelstein showed it to be scarred by falsified figures and gross misreading of sources. From that moment on, he was smeared as an anti-Semite by those who had lauded the book. But it was when Finkelstein revealed two years ago that Alan Dershowitz had, without acknowledgement, drawn wholesale from Peters' hoax for his book The Case For Israel, that the worst began. Dershowitz campaigned to make sure Finkelstein was denied tenure at his university. He even claimed that Finkelstein's mother -- who made it through Maidenek and two slave-labour camps -- had collaborated with the Nazis. The campaign worked. Finkelstein was let go by De Paul University, simply for speaking the truth.
Are the likes of Dershowitz and Phillips and Honest Reporting becoming more shrill because they can sense they are losing the argument? Liberal Jews -- the majority -- are now setting up rivals to the hard-right organisations they work with, because they believe this campaign of demonisation is damaging us all. It damages the Palestinians, because it prevents honest discussion of their plight. It damages the Israelis, because it pushes them further down an aggressive and futile path. And it damages diaspora Jews, because it makes real anti-Semitism harder to deal with.
We need to look the witch-hunters in the eye and say, as Joseph Welch said to Joe McCarthy himself: "You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"
--Johann Hari
©independent.co.uk
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99 Comments so far
Show AllThe Little Dickie Silverstein Marching Song
I am a little kapo,
It makes my mommy mad,
Cause when I am a kapo,
Those Zionists get sad!
I celebrate the jihad,
and terror all the while,
I fill my blog and web page,
With loud salutes of Sieg Heil!
I want to see them Zraelis,
All dumped out in the sea,
My swastika a waving,
Cause everything's bout me.
(from the Kapostein blog)
I stand corrected, sort of:
"Some sources claim that the number zero was invented somewhere around the mid 2nd millennium BC. It seems to have been invented by Babylonians, who had a complicated sexagesimal positional numeral system. The space that lacked the positional value, which is considered to be zero, was shown by a space amid sexagesimal numerals.
However, some records of the ancient time also claim that the ancient Greeks were very uncertain about the status of the number zero. On the other hand the Indian scholar named Pingala , had invented the number in the binary system but it was known as zero then, it was called a śūnya."
Ok, so it looks like the 'ancestors' of Arabs & then Moslems invented the zero, but it surely wasn't so called Khazars, the ancestors of most current Jews. Considering the Rothschilds, converts to Judaism at one time were reputed to own half the assets of the entire world, though, it looks like Jews became very adept in its use.
BTW, Arabs (or Muslims) did NOT invent the zero.
It's another urban myth, happily taken up by people who are absolutely desperate to find *something* good in Islamic culture.
People who read CommonDreams need more background in history.
Actually, I've seen just the opposite. Israel is the sole Jewish state on Earth, in the midst of Arab states. And there are those who think this is too much, i.e., that the Jews should not be permitted a homeland. Who can rightfully claim this piece of land? That depends on which particular period of history you choose to focus on.
One must wonder why the Palestinians have not been welcomed into the Arab nations, abandoned instead for decades, languishing in refugee camps.
What I've seen here is a consistent stream of condemnation of Israel, virtually all of which appears to be in the "knee jerk" category. If Israel does it, it's wrong. If an Arab nation does the same thing, it's "understandable". If Israel is attacked, we don't condemn the attack, but the measures taken in response. And if Israel did not respond, is there any doubt that the nation would be obliterated?
Is the US a "staunch ally" of Israel? Consider the vast amounts of US weapons going to the Arab nations. Today, American troops are being killed by those weapons. Keeping the war(s) going in the Mideast has been very profitable for US corporations.
Is there any doubt that the US would sell out Israel at the drop of a hat, if there was something to be gained? Indeed, claiming a Mideast ally has given the US excuses to "intervene" repeatedly. Does anyone doubt that the US is much more interested in protecting oil wells than Israelis?
To sum this thread up in a word:
WHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
You lefties could give jews lessons in whining about nothing! Don't worry guys, the destruction of israel is still at the top of the agenda across most of the world, including the UN general assembly. A few jews can't stop it, so there's nothing to whine about here.
Right on the money Apollonius. How can you "progressives" support these people?
"Enslavement": This is a good translation of 'Islam'. The Middle East has had nearly 15 centuries of Arab imperialism. Time to resist these slave drivers.
RE: Apollonius May 13th, 2008 9:01 am
"Apollo is a god." and since people are judged by their words I can only conclude Apollonius must also be a severely bigoted idiot.
"...contemptable ideology known as Islam has spelled out explicitly: the Qur'an is junk,", and the warped philosophy springing forth from any other archaic religious manuscript is any better? Reading is a basic skill, but comprehension of what is read is far more important.
"...the Harlequin romance of religious writing, except profoundly evil instead of simply being gauche and in extraordinarily bad taste.", and adherents to the Old & New Testaments have been less violent & nasty to fellow humans? You either jest, are delusional, or completely ignorant of history, take your pick.
"Muslims and Islam flunk both the arts and sciences…", just tell that to the people who built the Taj Mahal or invented the concept of the '0' (zero), and see how far you get.
"How 'Nakba' proves there's no Palestinian nation", I could give a rat's ass about the article you cited. So friggin what? Here's something to consider. Arizona didn't even exist as a state until 1912. Does this mean that there weren't people already living there (and before the United States was even founded at that)? No! Does this mean the people from (say) Virginia had a right to come in and tell them, "Move away, we're taking your property"? I don't think so, and neither should/would/will any self-respecting Arizonian or Palestinian, nor should anyone have the unmitigated gall to ask them to do so. Such an attempt is the height of arrogance and outright thievery. The majority of Isrealis & Palestinians already have expressed a desire to peacefully co-exist as one or two states, no matter, as long as it ceases this constant bickering/fighting, but the thing standing in opposition is not religion, but a warped perverted secular Zionist ideology intent on domination, greed, and enslavement.
In the future don't try whipping out the 'anti-semitic' dick again. It's puny, and a dog that no longer hunts.
Definitely mortal enough to make mistakes. Insert the word "merely" in front of "gauche" to read: "the Qur'an is junk, the Harlequin romance of religious writing, except profoundly evil instead of simply being merely gauche and in extraordinarily bad taste."
Back to the article. It should be entitled 'The Loathesome Smearing of Israel'.
Israel is not a perfect country. No country is. Apart from Israel the Middle East doesn't have a country that even makes a passing grade.
Who makes selections for articles on the Middle East for CommonDreams? The reporting here is so unbalanced it has sunk to the bottom of the compost heap. This publication desperately need a new international affairs editor.
Back to the article. It should be entitled 'The Loathesome Smearing of Israel'.
Israel is not a perfect country. No country is. Apart from Israel the Middle East doesn't have a country that even makes a passing grade.
Who makes selections for articles on the Middle East for CommonDreams? The reporting here is so unbalanced it has sunk to the bottom of the compost heap. This publication desperately need a new international affairs editor.
Definitely mortal enough to make mistakes. Insert the word "merely" in front of "gauche" to read: "the Qur'an is junk, the Harlequin romance of religious writing, except profoundly evil instead of simply being merely gauche and in extraordinarily bad taste."
Apollo is a god. Apollonius is a mere mortal, and although posessed of no supernatural powers, I do have the ability to read, and I simply reiterate what virtually every observer whose mind is not totally rotted from the contemptable ideology known as Islam has spelled out explicitly: the Qur'an is junk, the Harlequin romance of religious writing, except profoundly evil instead of simply being gauche and in extraordinarily bad taste.
Muslims and Islam flunk both the arts and sciences... and religion.
I don't expect the trolls here to grasp this. Their minds are poisoned by the Qur'an and, in the case of non-believers, through romanticized identification with doomed civilizations.
For those who *can* read, here is an essay which traces the origin of the term 'nakba':
How 'Nakba' proves there's no Palestinian nation - by Steve Plaut, History News Network, 30 April 2008
http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/50197.html
'Over the past few years, the term nakba (also spelled naqba) has become the favorite nonsense word of the Anti-Israel Lobby. Meaning "catastrophe" in Arabic, it has been embraced by anti-Semites all over the planet to refer to Israel's creation, which supposedly imposed a "catastrophe" upon the "disenfranchised Palestinian Arabs."
Of course, the real catastrophe that befell the Arabs in 1948-49 was that they failed in their attempt to annihilate Israel and exterminate its population, and for that they paid a price.'
What about The Palestinian Holocaust?
Anyone heard of that?
To the rascist (Appolanus) who insulted the Koran; that reflects grade school mentality, like maybe 2nd grade. And your god-like screename is making us laugh-what, are you a Greek God! WOW!
Palestine For Ever.
A Holocaust is a Holocaust no matter who it happens to, and the Jews should not act as if the word is their personal, trademarked property.
April 15th, 2008 was the fourth observance of the Aboriginal Holocaust Memorial Day. Anyone hear of that?
I only read about it a few days ago, in reference to a press conference about mass graves associated with Indian Residential Schools (their motto -- to Kill the Indian within the Indian) in Canada.
MiMiCcS -- why don't you take the OT literally ? It makes perfect sense that way, starting with the genetic engineering described in Genesis. And how do you keep track of your genetic experiment ? Oh yes, you require the baby boys to be 'circumcized in the flesh of their foreskin'. A simple way to mind-rape. And see how faithfully it has been done for how many millenia ? The OT is basically a geneological history of the race the gods 'made in their own image'. Well, that tells us something about the gods, doesn't it ?
Zechariah Sitchin has written lots of books about this, especially interesting is his Wars of Gods and Men.
Osgoroth,
"You say that Israel can never be pressured into allowing the return of refugees."
I said no such thing. Not to be testy here, but on this board I have said the exact opposite and you are the second person to claim I have said this, so let me waste some more space repeating myself:
I think it is a positive development when polls done among Palestinian refugees show that only a very small minority want to exercise their right of return to Israel proper. Israel balks at allowing 3 million plus refugees to return, but 300,000 or less, with reparation payed in some form to the rest is a much more palatable solution to this very sensitive issue. The right of return issue has always been one of the more contentious issues and I believe that, if this poll is accurate, it is a positive step towards resolving this issue.
Now, for the issue of one-state versus two-state solution:
In theory, a one-state solution is the best answer. Everybody gets citizenship in one state with Jerusalem as it's capital and we all live happily ever after. However, looking at the issue pragmatically, Israel will never allow this to happen. In a perfect world, all the pro-Israel US politicians would reverse their stance, put actual pressure on Israel to accept a one-state solution and the problem would be solved. But we don't live in that world and the US will never, in the foreseeable future pressure Israel in this way. For God's sake, I put in a lot of time doing activist work in an American-Jewish peace organization and with all of our lobbying, we can barely get any politicians to pressure Israel to consider any concessions at all, let alone a complete reversal of their entire foundational philosophy! Imagining that this will occur is like imagining that George W. Bush is going to wake up tomorrow and go o live TV to say "Oops, I sure f-ed up in Iraq, I think we'll pull out now" - in short, it isn't going to happen. I understand and commend the ideals behind such a solution, but I'm more concerned with coming up with solutions that might actually be plausible in ending the violence in Palestine and end the suffering of Palestinian civilians sometime in my lifetime. To make any progress at all, we have to first attempt to pressure the govt to engage at all in an even-handed peace process. But until we are even successful at that, jumping to a one-state solution is only going to hurt the cause of peace by alienating half the people whose engagement is critical for success. What's that old cliche, "putting the cart before the horse"?
Just for clarification so that I don't have you all jumping down my throat:
1 - I think the right of return, particularly in light of new circumstances, can work and be effective.
2 - I don't disagree that a one-state solution is perhaps superior to a two-state solution, but I don't think that it is a plausible goal given the political climate at the moment and I can't see the political climate changing that dramatically any time in the near future.
MiMiCcS
You left out:
1 Samuel, Chapter 15
http://www.biblicalproportions.com/modules/ol_bible/King_James_Bible/1Samuel/15/
Begin Quote
Samuel also said unto Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD."
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley. And Saul said unto the Kenites, "Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments." And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, "Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal."
And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, "Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD."
And Samuel said, "What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?"
And Saul said, "They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed."
Then Samuel said unto Saul, "Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night." And he said unto him, "Say on."
And Samuel said, "When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?"
And Saul said unto Samuel, "Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal."
And Samuel said, "Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."
And Saul said unto Samuel, "I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD."
And Samuel said unto Saul, "I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel."
And as Samuel turned about to go away, he (Saul) laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. And Samuel said unto him, "The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou. And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent."
Then he (Saul) said, "I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God."
So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD. Then said Samuel, "Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites." And Agag came unto him delicately. And
Agag said, "Surely the bitterness of death is past."
And Samuel said, "As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women." And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.
Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul. And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
colleen;
"In Israel and the US any critics can be a called anti American or anti semetic. Do any other nations or groups call their critics anti? For example do the british call their critics anti British?"
No, such a thing would be laughable. You could call your opponant anything from traitor to a deluded fool, but if you tried to use the term 'anti-'whatever you'd become the subject of ridicule. Up in Canada we've had, as an opposition party in the gov't, a group of separatists (anti-Canadians if ever there were such a thing) and yet not one critic of theirs ever called them anti-canuck. I suppose the very young could get away with using the term, but don't know any of the anklebiters to be able to tell you.
It's not just the right wing Jews. The diaspora of Jews are guilty too. To many American Indians Jewish People have directly and indirectly participated in continuing genocide. Jews have used the Holocaust to advance themselves politically to a status beyond criticism. The constant drumbeat of Holocaust films on tv and movies enhances and extends their victimization status. The suppression of the American Indian Genocide that in numbers of dead was twenty times worse than the Holocaust could not succeed without Jewish participation. The Jewish influence in media is well documented and never is there a serious effort to present evidence of the continuing genocide of American Indians. National Jewish Radio, sometimes known as NPR, absolutely refuses both locally and nationally to air serious charges of American Indian Genocide. I am happy to see such single mindedly selfish people receive some factual criticism. It is long overdue.
mikep: screw your emotional blackmail and screw you for playing the phony "anti-Semite" card. Israel is a phantom nation and it needs to be exorcised from Palestine once and for all. Hamas has been more than kind. They will accept Israel as a neighbor. That is more than what I would be willing to put up with after all the grief the Zionists and their American and British pimps have put the Palestinians through. Good day.
And if I did not care about Israel I would not be posting these views. I want to see Israel and Palestine side by side in peace.
I think people like Dershowitz believe that in order to survive they must use violence and war. They believe in war as a tool for change.
I think war and aggression will destroy Israel eventually. Its too little and surrounded by too many people who are enemies.
The solutions will take a long time and it will be slow imo. The people who like war want quick solutions and do not have the patience to work for peace over a long time period.
It is people like Dershowitz who fuel the anti-Semitic fire. Where is his conscience?
Where there is repression and injustice, there will be tenacious fierce resistance. The US lost in Viet Nam because of sustained sacrifice and resistance by the heroic Vietnamese. The ideologically blinded Israelis will eventually lose in Palestine - demographics and history are against them. The US will lose in Iraq - they just cannot kill everyone like some Biblical myth in Deuteronomy. Despite self-deluding racism a colonial society ,like Israel and a militarist empire, like the US - cannot sustain the fight forever because of the internal domestic costs - whereas the Palestinians and Iraqis, like the Vietmanese, have nothing left to lose and something very tangible to win.
Also if there is a suppression of views and a suppression of crtiticism. the result will be a build up under ground of resistance. To have a vibrant society there must be an open expression of views and honest discussions.
If there is a suppression then the opposition will erupt or the society will be stagnant. Take your choice
And this suppression of criticism of Israel will imo result in an underground resistance to helping Israel..and there will be people who will call this resistance anti semitism..but imo there are grounds to criticize Israel...just as there are grounds to criticize any nation.
In Israel and the US any critics can be a called anti American or anti semetic. Do any other nations or groups call their critics anti? For example do the british call their critics anti British?
This labeling a critic as anti is an attempt to ignore the criticism, as being not based in fact but based in irrationality.
This labeling of critics of Israel as anti semetic won't work and what is happening is that the left has segments now that are very critical of Israel...and imo the criticisms are growing..and that is not good for Israel and its future.
There are, simply put, principles that work and violence leads to a cycle of violence.
People who support violence often turn to history and say it has always been like that for humans. Well yes..once people use violence it does lead to multiple wars. Which are the societies that have avoided wars though? What have they done to be successful? Why look at the failures to judge what should be done? Why the glorification of war when it's use is a failure and leads to pain and death?
mikep quote
"Because you have absolutely no international support whatsoever"
You do not realize how little support Israel has.
Work from principle...even let's assume that there is within the Palestinians, groups that are human rights violators..based upon principles how should the Palestinian people be treated? and folllowing principles I believe one would be critical of some actions by Israel.
The same human rights principles work world wide for all people. If you use violence you will not succeed. There will be a multitude of problems that come with violence and not following principles about how human beings should be treated.
Forget honest debate, AIPAC and JINSA own our government, and Zionists control our press. Zionists are steering us "hillbillies" into Mideast wars, bankrupting our treasury and world credibility. Mark my words, this will create a backlash against Jews in the US that will make any gains from Zionist meddling in our government pale by comparison. This is so sad, because all Jews will be smeared by the actions of a minority of committed Zionists, and we will lose an intellectually strong and vibrant segment of people supportive of progressive political action.
Speaking of Texas, back in the late 1980s, I had the opportunity to speak about this issue with an elected official when I was living in Texas. There were several of us in a group. He really didn't get it, didn't understand why the Palestinians didn't just move over to Jordan. I finally asked him how he would feel if tomorrow he was forced to move to Oklahoma. He blanched at the thought and said, "Oh, I see."
Now that wasn't enough to get him to straighten out his voting record because he, like many another elected official, is fully aware of the truth but is afraid of the consequences.
My own congressman, John Bryant, actually said that he knew full well what was going on over there but that it would cost him the election if he ever said or did anything about it. That was an eye-opener for me as I guess I hadn't realized that some of the pro-Israeli politicians were that merely for the sake of political expediency, rather than being true believers.
I have read that later Bryant did introduce a bill that was slightly even-handed on the matter and that doing so did cost him. I haven't kept up with Texas politics much since I left in 1990 so I am not sure exactly what happened.
I'm not sure what the point of attacking UNRWA is supposed to be unless, to help in a movement to end this dedicated agency. And I do mean dedicated in the sense of solely committed to working with Palestinians. Other agencies have to do refugee triage in order to balance their funds against the need. Getting rid of UNRWA would make it easier to stop aid to the Palestinians.
Not that there might not be a need for some improvement. And as for some of the charges, there is a difference between people who are refugees who want to go home and are permitted to go home when the waters recede or the war ends, refugees who want to leave their home and go to a new country, and those refugees, such as the Palestinians, who want to go home and are not permitted to do so by an occupying power. There are some rules of international law that govern what/how such refugees must do in order to preserve their rights. Some of which is not to be resettled as permanent immigrants in the host country. The commentary doesn't really provide much in the way of facts, mostly a lot of opinions and conclusions aimed at undermining the rights of Palestinians in the guise of "concern."
And as for Dr. Said, what possible connection to the question of the Palestinians, could this bit of literary criticism have? Well one thing comes to mind and that is an article he wrote for The Nation magazine many years ago in which he asked why there were so few translations of literature and poetry from Arabic into English. In discussions with publishers and writers, it seemed that if the American public were to know that Palestinians and Arabs in general were real people, then that would undermine the wholesale demonization of the Arab culure and therefore wouldn't be allowed. Not by fiat, but by unspoken consensus.
I'm feeling like smashing icons today:
Two timely books on Edward Said and post-colonial theory:
Edward Said's shadowy legacy - by Robert Irwin, Times Literary Supplement, 7 May 2008
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article3885948.ece
Review of: Reading Orientalism: Said and the Unsaid by Daniel Martin Varisco (University of Washington Press) and Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism by Ibn Warraq (Prometheus)
A couple of highlights in tthe discussion of the volume by Ibn Warraq:
'Ibn Warraq shows how, lacking a background in history, Said was as ignorant of the chronology and geography of the Arab conquests, as he was of those of the British and French empires. Said was obsessed with sexual readings of apparently innocent texts. He managed to find an erotic subtext in Vatikiotis's slightly dull article on revolutions. Alphonse de Lamartine does not travel in the Middle East, but he "penetrates" it. In discussing Kipling's Kim, Ibn Warraq remarks that "Said has the irritating habit of claiming to know how the 'Indian reader' will react to the novel. I am an Indian reader, and do not read it as Said's ideal Indian reader does, and I shall quote other Indian readers who do not either". Ibn Warraq finds Said's characterization of Thomas Carlyle and John Henry Newman as "liberal culture heroes" quite absurd.
Said had a problem with languages. For example, when discussing the writings of Sir William Jones and Friedrich Schlegel, he was mysteriously determined to deny that Sanskrit, Persian, German and Greek all belonged to the same broad group of languages – a sort of club to which Arabic could not belong. Ibn Warraq, in discussing Said's attitude to Orientalists, remarks that he was "particularly jealous of their mastery of languages". German scholars dominated Arabic, Hebrew and Sanskrit studies in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, yet Said avoided any substantial discussion of their work. Some critics have argued that this was because the pre-eminence of German Orientalists did not fit his thesis about the interdependence of Orientalism and imperialism in the Middle East, but others have suggested that it was because his German was not very good. Varisco has noted how Said mistranslates Goethe's famous line "Gottes ist der Orient!" as "God is the Orient". He has also spotted that Nerval's "La mer d'Ionie" was mistranslated as "the Ionian sky". Ibn Warraq is unhappy with Said's English, specifically with his misuse of the adverb "literally" and his confusion of scatology with eschatology. Other critics have wondered about Said's Arabic.'
[...]
'Moreover, Ibn Warraq has a remarkably wide knowledge of Indian history, Classical literature and art history. Knowledge of the latter serves him well when he turns his attention to an ally of Said, Linda Nochlin, the author of a brief and under-researched but influential article "The Imaginary Orient", which appeared in Art in America in 1983. In this article she attacked the Orientalist paintings of Gérôme and others. According to Nochlin, we have to understand those paintings in terms "of the particular power structure in which these works came into being".
Gérôme's "Snake Charmer" was, according to Nochlin "a visual document of nineteenth-century colonialist ideology". But why Gérôme should have wanted to produce such a document is not clear. Moreover, the painting is set in Constantinople, the capital of the Ottoman Empire. The picture was completed in around 1883, when neither France nor Britain had any colonies in the Middle East, except for a British coaling station at Aden. Nochlin condemned the background of the painting for its "ferociously detailed tiled wall", but what is wrong with detail? Nochlin disliked the licked finish of Gérôme's painting, but that seems to be merely a matter of subjective taste on her part. According to a note in Nochlin's article, "Edward Said has pointed out to me in conversation that most of the so-called writing on the back wall of the 'Snake Charmer' is in fact unreadable". To which Ibn Warraq responds that the wall bears a clearly legible quotation from the Koran's Sura of the Cow in thuluth script. (Hence, perhaps, doubts about Said's Arabic.) '
Speaking of loathsome:
'On the surface, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) seems a humanitarian group helping Palestinian refugees. In reality, it actually helps destroy the chance of Arab-Israeli peace, promotes terrorism, and holds Palestainians back from rebuilding their lives.
Unique in history, UNRWA's job is to keep Palestinian refugees in suspended animation--and at low living standards--until they achieve the goal set for them by the PLO and Hamas: Israel's extinction. In the meantime, their suffering and anger is maintained as a weapon to encourage them toward violence and intransigence.
UNRWA schools become hotbeds of anti-Western, anti-American, and anti-Semitic indoctrination, recruiting offices for terrorist groups. UNRWA's services are dominated by radicals who staff and subsidize radical groups while potentially intimidating anyone from voicing a different line. UNWRA facilities are used to store and transport weapons, actually serving as military bases.
In this process, UNRWA has broken all the rules that are supposed to govern humanitarian enterprises. Consequently, UNRWA is the exact opposite of other refugee relief operations. They seek to resettle refugees; UNRWA is dedicated to blocking resettlement. They help refugees to live normal lives so that they can move on with their existence; UNRWA's role is to ensure their lives remain abnormal so they are filled with anger and a thirst for revenge that inspires violence and can only be quenched by a victorious return. They try to create stable conditions for refugees; UNRWA's mission is to enable radical political activity and indoctrination by armed groups which ensures a continual state of near chaos.
The time has come, especially given the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip, which also signals a Hamas takeover of the UNRWA facilities there, to reevaluate the role of UNRWA. If it is indeed very much a part of the problem--a barrier to resolving the refugees' status and returning them to normal lives; a barrier to resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict; and a source of violence--it should be dissolved and replaced by something better.
Three basic steps are required to do this. They would improve the refugees' lives and strengthen moderate Palestinian forces.
First, UNRWA should be dissolved.
Second, all services it provides should be transferred to other agencies within the UN, notably the UNHCR, which has a long and productive experience in this area.
Third, responsibility for normal social services should be turned over to the Palestinian Authority. Most UNRWA staff should be transferred to it. Donors should use the maximum amount of oversight to ensure this be done effectively.
People often wonder why violence and instability persists and why the Arab-Israeli conflict is so seemingly impossible to resolve. One important part of the answer is that UNRWA perpetuates the problem. All those seeking real progress toward peace between Israelis and Palestinians need to take a close look at this unacceptable situation. All those with responsibility for the management of these issues need to work for a change of course.
INTRODUCTION
What could be more appealing as an agency to help refugees? The image summoned up is one of suffering people bereft of homeland, traumatized, insecure, and badly in need of help receive humanitarian assistance given altruistically to ease their plight. Who could object to such an enterprise, when presented in those terms?
And indeed the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) has done some good work of this nature, at least in the narrowest possible definition of immediate relief, over the long decades of its existence.
But the problem is that UNRWA is much more than that. It has become an agency whose bottom line could be called anti-humanitarian, most of all for those who it purportedly serves. There are two basic issues here.
First, UNRWA has become a vehicle for perpetuating the conflict and thus in delaying the successful resettlement of Palestinian refugees. In this sense, it has worked to keep them in a permanent suspended animation, in which their plight becomes a weapon in the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Second, UNRWA has become, at least indirectly, a revolutionary tool used by radical and terrorist forces for obtaining resources, providing bases, and ensuring recruits. This was true for all the groups in the PLO, though most importantly Fatah, and it now applies for Hamas and other radical Islamist groups as well.
In this process, UNRWA has broken all the rules that are supposed to govern humanitarian enterprises. Often, this has been due to intimidation though at times also to the politically committed positions of its officials, and especially employees, who agree with the two principles outlined above.
Consequently, UNRWA is the exact opposite of other refugee relief operations. They seek to resettle refugees; UNRWA is dedicated to blocking resettlement. They help refugees to live normal lives so that they can move on with their existence; UNRWA's role is to ensure their lives remain abnormal so they are filled with anger and a thirst for revenge that inspires violence and can only be quenched by a victorious return. They try to create stable conditions for refugees; UNRWA's mission is to enable radical political activity and indoctrination by armed groups which ensures a continual state of near chaos. It is in effect nothing more than an internationally subsidized recruitment base for terrorist groups or, to put it in the most generous way, is a hostage of the terrorists.
The time has come, especially given the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip, which also signals a Hamas takeover of the UNRWA facilities there, to reevaluate the role of UNRWA. If it is indeed very much a part of the problem--a barrier to resolving the refugees' status and returning them to normal lives; a barrier to resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict; and a source of violence--it should have no future existence. The well-intentioned Western finance and UN sponsorship should come to an end, with alternative means being found for providing necessary functions.'
From: The Gloria Center
http://www.gloriacenter.org/index.asp?pname=submenus/articles/2008/rubin/5_8.asp
Well mikep and other supporters of Israel's actions - you may be successful in your PR efforts for most of the US public, but at least I have the personal satisfaction of a deep, lasting hatred for the kinds of violence that Israel commits against Palestinians, including the illegal raining down of cluster bombs on half of Lebannon in 2006. I can well believe the settlers are pumping sh*t into Palestinian resevoirs. The actions of Israel are the actions of Facists, and I will continue to hate Fascism whether its committed by Israelis, BushCo, or the Brits (who screwed up the middle east just as they did India / Pakistan). Israel is a rogue state - the only reason the security council hasn't jacked them up by the back of their collective collars and smacked them down is that the US always blocks resolutions to do so. But, like all Fascist states, eventually blowback will end their violence. Now, I'm sure I'll be called anti-semetic - if Israel were to become law-abiding and peaceful - I would have no problem with them at all. It's their actions, not their heritage or religion or history - it is their actions.
Someone here quoted the Bible.
Take a look at the Qur'an. What a bag of filth.
But, Israel is a great place to live... if you're Jewish.
And Israel is such a "peace" loving nation.
… Just be sure to shout that loudly, so you'll be heard over the Apache helicopter gunships strafing Gaza.. and to be heard over the IDF's 155 mm artillery shelling Gaza.
And to be heard over the IDF armored bulldozers, crushing the life out of the West Bank by knocking down Palestinian homes and smashing down their olive groves and running over the occasional peace activist.
And to be heard over the deady barking sounds of the numerous IDF sub-machine guns, ripping and tearing into the flesh of Palestinian kids.
Yep, Israel is one peaceful nation, alright.
The only peace Israel wants is: a "piece" of Jordan; a "piece" of Syria; a "piece" of Lebanon; a "piece" of Egypt; a "piece" of Iraq; a "piece" of Saudi Arabia and whatever "pieces" are left after Israel finishes it's genocidal extermination of the Palestinians.
Well, we had to have mikep join us to illustrate this point, didn't we?
For what it is worth, this demonization of the Palestinians and the Muslims, mikep, is rather reminiscent of the demonization of the Jews - secular and religious - in Europe and America during the first part of the Twentieth C.
And as to how the Palestinians started it - in the 18880s? When the First Aliyah arrived in Ottoman Palestine? How do you "start" something when somebody turns up and says that they're going to kick you out of your own country?
Thick as a brick? Of u238, definitely.
The Israel propaganda machine in the USA must be crushed.
sphinxheru May 8th, 2008 4:25 pm
>>There are people in America that take advantage of "duel citizenship". They call themselves American out front but undercover do everything in their power to undermine America in the name of israel! In the last twenty/thirty years more people in America have been arrested for "spying" for israel then all other countries combined. israel(I have deliberately "not capitalized" the word israel because of my disdain for its misguided policies).I believe that congress should pass laws banning duel citizenship and making the punishment for spying, especially nuclear spying, more stringent.<<
This is not an attempt to criticize your spelling, but a "light-hearted" reference to the "Freudian-Slip" of "duel vs. dual". For it indeed more accurate to point out the duel inherent in dual nationality. I agree that elective or appointed positions must require irreversible choice about nationality, and in any event, potential conflict must be disclosed.
And to CONCORD56 May 8th, re your suggestion about "...a very little" piece of land. I'd even be willing to suggest that America give-up an equal part of Texas, if it would make a difference."
I have often reflected that this would be an forceful and undoubtedly an unacceptable way to bring home to Americans the impact of such a challenge as that made over Palestine vs. Israel". For what it is worth, Texas has my first choice also, a choice deliberately including Bush and/or any Cheney/Halliburton property. It would certainly alter points of view.
"...in my opinion, justice can be served only by a one-state solution."
-posted by fresh1 @ May 8th, 11:57 pm
"I disagree that a one-state solution is a plausible one if only for the pragmatic reason that Israel will never allow that to occur."
-posted by BreeMass @ May 9th, 12:35 am
___________________________
BreeMass, your posts are usually articulate and thoughtful, but I think fresh1 is right. The only plausible solution is a one-state solution, i.e., the right of return for all refugees and conversion of the present Jewish theocracy into a secular democracy with equal rights for all religions and races. The alternative is permanent injustice for Palestinians and eventual nuclear holocaust in the ME. Only Christian Zionists want that outcome.
You say that Israel can never be pressured into allowing the return of refugees. On the contrary, the only way Israel will allow the return of refugees and the restoration of a secular democracy is through economic and diplomatic pressure by the US. A two-state solution is no solution at all. It's tantamount to a protracted national suicide for Israel.
Mikep: truly Liberal Jews are starting to speak out. This is often done against a backdrop of intimidation meted out in synagogues across the country. These are the "self-hating Jews".
I love my people which is why I oppose the morally bankrupt policies of the Israeli government which help build anti-semitism.
Stop hiding behing the 6 million everytime someone utters remarks critical of Israel. It is offensive to those who lost family in the camps. You do not speak for my aunts, uncles and cousins who perished. Stop pretending you do.
Arvy May - Thanks!
Fresh - I mentioned a recent survey that was done among displaced Palestinians and only a very small minority (around 10%) would actually be interested in returning to Israel proper. The rest would be happy with some sort of reparations. Contrary to what I may have implied, I think this marks a very positive step being as how the return of so many refugees is unpalatable to most Israelis. However, if only 300,000 or less actually care to return, this is manageable, but it must be handled during the peace negotiations and I think this is still a long way off.
I'm not sure if the rest of your post was directed at me, but I will say that I don't by any means think the problem is too complex to solve. I just despair at the US ever putting actual pressure on ISrael to take the steps they must take for a just solution to occur. I don't see this happening anytime soon, much to the detriment of civilians on both sides and in direct contravention to the wishes of the majority of said civilian populations.
I disagree that a one-state solution is a plausible one if only for the pragmatic reason that Israel will never allow that to occur. I agree that the US needs to put pressure on the Israeli govt to come to the table with Hamas for actual peace talks, but the way to get this done is not to pressure the Israelis to consider a one-state solution.
It's too late and I'm too tired to explain why, but as simple as it sounds, the reality is much more complex if only because of the political situation in the US.I wish it were as simple as pressuring the govt, but it isn't because if it was, those of us who have spent years trying to do just that wouldn't be so disheartened by the current situation.
Hypocracy in action. If a Jew is killed for whatever reason or spoken against simply because of disagreeing with policies...it is rascist and anti-semetic...anyone else of another race or religion....people turn their head away and ignore it.
Genocide is genocide....doesn't matter who it is. Anyone committing genocide should be held accountable...period.
This business of do as I say, not as I do...is just wrong.
It does not matter if the crime is committed with a bullet or stavation...the result is the same...lots of dead people.
I don't condemn the Israeli people...just the corrupt and cruel leaders who make these decisions.
There is an ongoing peace movement in Israel...people who do not agree with the policies there. I believe the people, Israeli and Palestinians could live in peace were it not for the leaders...there and here...who spread the propagand and push for violence and war.
Any of see the play about Rachel Corrie? (it was banned in some places. She was the American killed by Israelis when she tried to stop them from bulldozing a Palestinian home.
There is a great book about her as well: Let Me Stand Alone, The Journals of Rachel Corrie
Worth the read.
BreeMass, all of what you say is reasonable, but it leaves out the refugees, whose situation makes it impossible to respect universal human rights and still hold to the dream of Israel as a Jewish-majority-controlled state.
The Jewish majority was created by violence, by forced dispossession, and the dispossessed victims (and now, their descendants) are the 4 to 5 million Palestinian refugees, over half of whom live in destitute camps in Jordan, Lebanon, and the occupied territories. Respecting their right to return (under the universal declaration of human rights) would mean the end of a Jewish majority, thus the end of Israel.
I don't have a problem with that personally-- in my opinion, justice can be served only by a one-state solution. But its not just Zionist loonies like Dershowitz who oppose the right of return-- its also alleged progressives like Rabbi Michael Lerner. For them, Palestinian rights are not as important as having a Jewish-majority-controlled state on the land where these Palestinians once lived. That's the crux of the matter.
Perhaps most of the Palestinians would agree to compensation in exchange for giving up the right to return, but the question has never come up because Israel and the its US backers still refuse to acknowledge this right.
I don't agree that this situation is too complex to be solved. It all comes down to a huge power imbalance due to the US backing the stronger party. Its blindingly simple if there is a political will here in the US. For instance, the only thing that is stopping the placement of UN inspectors in the occupied territories is the US. If the US simply with-held its political support and its 5 billion in annual aid until Israel complies with international law, then suddenly we would see all sorts of progress. The first effect would be to empower Israeli politicians who want to be part of the solution and who will settle for peace with justice, then a just solution will begin to emerge.
I am perplexed as to why my post was blocked. I resubmitted and was told it was a duplicate, that I had done it already. That was true, but then I changed it and tried to post it with amendment to another article and could not do it.
I have one posted above: notgoingalong May 8th, 2008 6:11 pm
And I would like to know what the difference is. I had links to validating sources, and wonder if any of "flagged" for some reason. To resolve this in my mind, and try to place this links again, here we go again!:
Who were the Inside Job conspirators of 9/11?
Who drafted the scenario of a new Pearl Harbor?
Who are the super-hawks with dual citizenship with what country?
This is an open question, albeit rhetorical for just about anyone who has objectively given this casus belli (occasion for war) a fraction of the time it urgently deserves would easily and logically be able to reach the inescapable conclusion that hardcore zealots we call neo-conservatives or neocons, and are political Zionist positioned in government and the private sector as a clear and present danger to all of us, regardless of our ethnicity, nationality, or religion. There is more to unite us than divide us, but it is an acquired perspective that has been neglected and the consequences are tragic!
Now, none of the above has been posted apparently by me here, and that is an edited version at that, so let's see...
FOR SALE BY OWERS
All three senators in the contest to succeed President George W. Bush in November's election appealed to voters, particularly the powerful Jewish-American voting bloc, by highlighting America's support for Israel.
Meanwhile Olmert admits to taking bribes but won't resign. There's nothing quite like poking his 'opinion' finger in the eye of every honest man...
Our American government obviously approves of this corruption.
The man who proved that the square root of 2 is not rational was killed for this idea. Galileo was forced to recant the idea that the earth travels around the sun. The Tennessee legislature decreed that PI equals 3.14 exactly.
The nature of all governments, all religions and all movements is sometimes to say that something is too hard to understand, and then ignore it. Peace in the Middle East is hard to understand, primarily because not all Palestinians think alike, not all Jews think alike, and a surprising number of others are caught in the middle.
The Israeli government is forced to say that Israelis will live in peace with Palestinians forever on Mondays, then say that every last scrap of Palestinian land shall slowly be stolen by Israel on Tuesdays, then vow vengeance on the Palestinians on Wednesdays. I'm not so sure of the holiness of this compact with the Palestinians.
Lumping the others, outside observers, with the Palestinians is very simple.
"Dershowitz is a lawyer, Harvard professor and author of The Case For Israel. He sees ethnic cleansing as a trifling matter..."
Well, I don't think that relocation of a race is the same as ethnic cleansing, but if it is? And Dershowitz thinks it trifling? I wonder how he views Hitler's attempt at ethnic cleansing?
I am so tired of hearing about Israel as the victim...they have occupied center stage for as long as I can remember and I'm 70. They control the dialog and are a vicious lying loathsome lot with the help of the USA of course and they will reap what they sow. Time wounds all heels.
Last time I looked both Jews and Arabs are Semites...so to be anti-semitic has little meaning linguistically. I think we need a new pejorative phrase that is specifically directed at Israel...so when its uttered Israelis will get it.
Israelis have became the worlds pariahs...not many can fathom their sense of superiority or their awful leaders
Most Jews I know can't stand Israelis...and certainly don't identify with them.
Hari, as usual, attempts to be even-handed. The problem is that as long as Zionists control the media, his voice will be one small unheard squeak.
But nice to see mikep being ripped to shreds. And probably a good thing for Jews in general, as it is his sort of supremacist propaganda that foments real anti-Jewish sentiment.
anne faith May 8th, 2008 1:58 pm
"The irony is that people such as Dershowitz and Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, in brooking no dissent or criticism of Israel whatsoever, actually only foment hatred of Jews."
I couldn't agree more. These people are causing so much animosity toward Jews around the world. THEY are the true threats to Judaism.
According to the state department, the New testament is considered to be anti-semitic material.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf (7.4 mb)
Just a matter of time before criticizing Israel is a crime. You go to jail just for questioning how many died in the holocaust in Europe.
Those unable to take criticism, and attack those who question them most strongly, are likely to have a secret.
Those who have secrets that must be strongly protected, are likely to be involved in a conspiracy.
Those who conspire in secret, are up to no good.
In the Bible (Old and NT) and Quran, there are some disturbing things if you presume they are to be taken literally (I don't)
From the Old Testament then.
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:6
When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the LORD your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourseves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you. Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save nothing that breathes ...
Deuteronomy 20:10-16
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break into pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever ...
Daniel 2:44
[The Israelites] warred against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and slew every male.... And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and they took as booty all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. All their cities in the places where they dwelt, and all their encampments, they burned with fire, and took all the spoil and all the booty, both of man and of beast ...Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live? ...Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
Numbers 31:7-18
He [the Jew] should not press his fellow [Jew] for payment ...the foreigner [Gentile] you may press for payment."
Deuteronomy 15: 2-3
You must not make your brother pay interest, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything on which one may claim interest. You may make a foreigner [Gentile] pay interest but your brother [fellow Jew] you must not make pay interest.
Deuteronomy 23: 19-20
Foreigners (Gentiles) shall rebuild your walls, and their kings shall minister to you ...Your gates shall be open continuously; day and night they shall not be shut; that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession. For the nation or kingdom that will not not serve you; shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste....
Isaiah 60:10-12
You shall suck the milk of nations, you shall suck the breast of kings; and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 60:16
And strangers [Gentiles] shall stand and feed your flocks, strangers shall be your plowmen and vinedressers; but you shall be called the priests of the LORD, men shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory.
Isaiah 61:5-6
If literally taken to be Gods word, then the Palestinians are being humanely treated by Israel ("you shall save nothing that breathes" .
"When the Palestinians put down their arms there will be no more war; when the Israelis put down theirs, there will be no more Israel."-- Benjamin Netanyahu
@BreeMass: I suspect there are times when you must wonder whether people of moderate sensibilities are even listening. So this is just to thank you for your contributions to the disucussion.
Bup, actually the Jews who founded Israel were fiercely secular and the majority of the population today is secular. However, the selection of the location for the state of Israel is based on biblical sources and that is used by Orthodox Jews and Israel and other Jews outside of Israel to rationalize Israel's position. But, by and large, Israelis don't feel connected to the land solely for religious reasons. They are connected because it is supposed to be a safe haven for Jews, which was sorely needed after the Holocaust.
Just for clarification, I'm not defending anything, just giving background for a poster...
I've lost several lifelong "friends" because I disagreed with Israeli policy. They were not interested in debate. Apparently, Israel can do no wrong, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an anti-semite.
Every time I read more and more about what the Isrealis are doing to the Palestinians I think about this song that was written back in 1993 and it still holds true.
HAILLIE SELLASSE, UP YOR ASS by Propagandhi
"You speak of Rastafari, but how can you justify belief in a God that's left you behind. You simply fill the gap between the upper and lower class and your faith merely keeps you in line. An amalgamation of jewish scripture and christian thought. What will that get you? Not a f***ing f**k of a lot. Take a look at your promised land. Your deed is that gun in your hand. Mt. Zion's a minefield. The West Bank. The Gaza strip… Soon to be parking lots for American tourists and fascist cops. F**k zionism. F**k militarism. F**k americanism. F**k nationalism. F**k religion."
Are the (non-miraculous) events in the Old Testament even approximately true? (Some of us already know about the supposed 'miracles' -- they didn't happen.) Wouldn't it be even sadder than it already is, if all the present day strife in Palestine can be traced back to campfire stories, myths and fables of people who have been dead for millenia, and who never intended for their evening entertainment to be taken as true descriptions of actual events? I'm reminded of the movie 'Zardoz'.
I have a two important items to share with this forum. The first I am proud to say I brought to the attention of Common Dreams and requested they post on their site, and they did, in think 6 years ago. Secondly, a one-minute You Tube video clip I found on Cyrano's Journal on HR 1955 that ties-in with this article by Johann Hari ominously.
Common Dreams' homepage has at the bottom right, 'Middle East in Crisis - Links' to the 'Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. Where you will find -
The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict Published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East. It is more than a powerful resource in its concise and unimpeachable quotations that put to rest fallacious arguments otherwise hard to dispute for most of us. Each chapter ends with the table of contents, and as today is the 60th anniversary of Israel, that chapter Statehood and Expulsion - 1948 would be of most interest, from which you can easily go chronologically to 'Early History of the Region' or to the 'Conclusion I For Jewish Readers or Conclusion II.
DESCRIPTION: HR 1955, proposed by Jane Harman (D-Calif.) criminalizes all dissident freedom of speech as essentially seditious and supportive of "terror" or some other bogeyman being trotted out by the system. It was passed by near unanimity in the House, with only 6 votes abstaining or not voting. Trust the Democrats!
Nay HI-1 Abercrombie, Neil [D]
Nay IL-12 Costello, Jerry [D]
Nay TN-2 Duncan, John [R]
Nay AZ-6 Flake, Jeff [R]
Nay OH-10 Kucinich, Dennis [D]
Nay CA-46 Rohrabacher, Dana [R]
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no lawrespecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Therefore, HR 1955 is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and is 'Null and Void' beyond a reasonable doubt, and We, the people. will not submit to repression and tyranny. Who was Rep. Harman's legislative assistance on this, Alan Dershowitz!
Unionguy - I agree with most of your post, but I need to point out a critical error in your argument. "Those stinking bastards" are not Israelis coming to the US to influence our government. They are American citizens, Jewish and Christian, who blindly support Israel. Hell, most politicians in Congress and our so-called president can be termed Zionist and I agree that this is the greatest threat to Israel and Jews outside of Israel because it justifies and kindles real anti-Semitism. But it's important to recognize that AIPAC is an American organization run by Americans and not to cross over into xenophobia about foreigners.
mikep (above) gives a very good exhibit of the stinking zionist assholes that smear everyone who tries to speak up about injustice in the middle east.
I'm a 30 yr steelworker from the Cleveland area, and I worked, along with hundreds of other trade unionists supporting Dennis Kucinich's reelection bid. His opposition was heavily funded by AIPAC (and it was published by the World Jewish News). The reason was that Dennis had the audacity to state that the US needed a more even-handed approach toward middle east diplomacy, that Israel should withdraw to its legal borders and that there should be a Palestinian state. Well, we kicked thaose bastards' asses. Jerks like Mikep should be aware that, far from "defending Israel," those zionists that came to Ohio, pockets overflowing with bribery money, opened a great many eyes to the real role that Israel is playing today---supporing the most pro-corporate, most war-like, most racist and reactionary forces everywhere on the globe.
Those forces are the same forces that, a generation ago, opposed allowing jewish refugees into the US, opposed the state of Israel and were the pervaors of anti-semitism (the 'real' variety) in their own lives. It is not the progressive forces world-wide that are against the state of Israel. It is the most racist and reactionary forces within Israel, and supporting that state, that have chosen to tie their national star to forces that, a generation ago, supported Nazism and the extermination of the Jewish people. It is ONLY those forces that will, today, support the aparteid state that the Israeli racists are building where the state of Israel previously existed.
It is these zionist forces that are pitting Israel against all decent, peace loving peoples of the world. Don't occupy Arab lands, deny them their most basic human rights and then blame the world for recoiling in horror.
A few years ago, I was on security at a large event sponsored by churches, peace groups and unions in Cleveland which had an Israeli peace leader and the mayor of the city of Nazareth spoke. JDL types appeared (to "defend" Israel), sporting knives and clubs. When they attempted to attack the stage we had to forcefully remove some of these terrorist filth. I was attacked with a knive. When the local Jewish nationality press appeared however, the story was about how "poor jewish youth were assualted by vicious Arab thugs!" Well, it wasn't "vicious Arab thugs" that removed those provacators and it is not anti-semitism when the entire world sees Israeli racist repression against the Palestinian people and speaks out against it!
Israel is facing a growing danger! However, it is actually coming from those right wing elements that want to use Israel for their own battering ram against the Arab peoples. The more those stinking bastards come to our nation, attempting to force extreme right-wing, pro-corporate rulers on us here, the more they make real enemies for that deformed racist theocracy occupying the middle east!
"All the Palestinians have to do to end the war they began in flagrant violation of international law and the rulings of the UN is to formally recognize Israel, and change their charters to reflect their permanent acceptance of Israel. Once that is done, negotiations for a permanent peace treaty may begin. But blaming Israel is just insane, and a complete waste of time."
Yes, and all Israel has to do to end the occupation they began in 1967 in flagrant violation of international law and continue in flagrant violation of UN rulings is to formally recognize a State of Palestine at pre-1967 borders, change their governmental charters to reflect their permanent acceptance of Palestine and dismantle the settlements, which are built in flagrant violation of international law. Once that is done, negotiations for a permanent peace treaty can begin.
This cuts both ways people and blaming either side without recognition of the faults of the other is insane. But Israel holds the power to create peace and refuses to do so. And although the Israeli govt constantly demands that recognition be a precursor to peace treaties, this is merely a smokescreen to prevent real negotiations, not to mention hypocritical since they refuse to recognize PAlestinians rights to the same thing. Hamas has offered a long-term cease-fire under which to begin negotiations towards peace, which implicitly include recognition of Israel. Israel also technically doesn't have an official State to recognize since it has never formalized it's own borders in an attempt to annex as much land as possible. As such, this makes their demand for recognition even more disingenuous and transparent.
2/3 of the Israeli population want negotiations with Hamas to start now, without even a cease-fire if necessary and it is exactly this that Hamas has offered. So who is it that is standing in the way of peace? That would be the Israeli govt, which, much like the US govt, has been hijacked by the extreme right to the detriment of all...
Full disclosure for those who don't know me on this board - I am a pro-Israeli American Jew. I just don't believe that being pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian are mutually exclusive concepts.
Israel does not want to resolve this conflict unless it means making the Palestinians go away, and that just ain't going to happen. Unfortunately for the Zionists they were a little too late. The twentieth century didn't have quite the stomach for displacing indigenous peoples and stealing their land as just a couple of decades before. The fact that the average Palesinian has about 5 children as opposed to two for the Israeli makes them rather nervous. I believe this is one of the reasons they try to make life so unbearable for them. However, nature works quite the opposite.
Locust - do you have a point other than to point out that every group and religion on the planet breeds crazy extremists who are, at one time or another, given entirely too much attention?
Chet - this is true, but fortunately, the Haaretz boards aren't actually indicative of public opinion. In fact, if you pay close attention, you'll see its a handful of radicals, many of them American, who plague the Haaretz boards. They are all isolated rabid Zionist loonies that have to resort to being so on an internet forum because regular Israelis are sick of listening to them...
"A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail"
Dov Lior, Rabbi of Kiryat Arba.
"We will carry out a greater holocaust against the
Palestinians," Matan Vilnai, Deputy Defense Minister,
1 March, 2006
"All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts", Rabbi Yisrael Rosen.
John Wycliff - this is the crux of the problem for us Jews who want a peacefu solution. Unfortunately, the only real solution requires steps that Israel (the gov't) shows no inclination of taking. However, most Israelis see that a pullback to pre-1967 lines is a first step, along with the dismantling of all outlying settlements. Where the issue gets sticky is with the larger settlements and the issue of the right of return. However, I think the larger settlements could be part of a land swap worked out under negotiations. The right of return may be less complicated if a recent poll suggesting that a very small percentage of Palestinian refugees actually want to return to Israel (less than 10% were the figures I saw). But again, I think these can be worked out eventually. It's getting the Israeli governement to come to and stay at the table that is the pressing issue right now. Even though most Israelis want negotiations now, the govt seems to be held hostage by extreme factions on the right.
If anyone believes that "mikep" is an isolated rabid Zionist loonie, please check out any Talkback forum at haaretz.com and be amazed as to how common his views are.
"All the Palestinians have to do to end the war they began in flagrant violation of international law and the rulings of the UN is to formally recognize Israel, and change their charters to reflect their permanent acceptance of Israel. Once that is done, negotiations for a permanent peace treaty may begin. But blaming Israel is just insane, and a complete waste of time."
I honestly cannot tell whether this statement is naive or disingenuous. The truth of the matter is that Israel is creating facts on the ground, such as expanded settlements, gerrymandered boundaries, etc that make a Palestinian state virtually untenable even if a peace treaty with full recognition of Israel's legitimacy were to be signed tomorrow. It is also a sad truth, that Israel has done nothing over the past 6 decades to encourage the development of Palestinian social, political and economic institutions and structures that could support a meaningful peace between the parties.
I am exceedingly discouraged about the prospect for a settlement of Arab-Israeli conflict within in my lifetime.
Israel has violated - and is currently violating - dozens of UN resolutions over the last 30 years. Here is just one, Resolution 446:
"(The Council) Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East; Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind it's previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories."
Israel is currently violating any number of nuclear treaties by illegally possessing an estimated 600 nuclear warheads. The entire world knows that Israel is a nuclear Power, yet they refuse to either deny or admit to it, and thus they escape the requirement of joining the Non-Proliferation Treaty, as all nuclear powers are required to do by law. They are the only mid-east nation to illegally possess nuclear weapons, and yet the US - instead of viewing them as a "rogue nuclear state" as we do North Korea, which also posssesses illegal nuclear weapons and refuses to sign the NPT - we call them our allies and demonize all the other countries in the Mideast. All because Israel is the "holy land" in the bible.
So while Israel goes on blatantly defying UN and international laws and treaties, treating the Palestinians almost exactly like they themselves were treated by Germany before they were given Israel as their own nation, and basically behaving like a nation full of despotic, above-the-law thugs, the US goes right on blindly supporting them no matter what they do. And anyone who dares to speak ill of Israel, or to point out the TRUTH about its lawbreaking and hypocrisy, as this article points out, is called an anti-semite Jew-hater.
Here's some fuel for those like Dershowitz and Phillips and the Bush cabal: fuck Israel. The best thing that could happen to the Palestinians would be for the other Mideast nations to band together - Iran, Syria, Jordan, Lebannon - and attack Israel back into the stone age for its lawlessness and apartheid. I for one would be applauding. Israel needs the world, and the U.S., but the world does not need Israel. If the Jews in Israel want to emulate their Nazi captors of 60 years ago by treating the Palestinians like they were treated in the 40's, then let's have a new war to wipe these neo-nazis off the map like we did back then.
john wycliff
the Sinai pennisula could be irrigated and converted into Palestine. Who lives there?
I believe the Jews can make a very good case that people should handle Israeli topics with kid gloves and be very politically correct and sensitive. However, the truth is the truth and there is no reason to hide it.
Anti-semitism is hideous, but accurate criticisms of Israel are by no means anti-semitism.
That's why I don't like the idea that Israel is "The Jewish Nation." That is BS. That is how they can make those bogus argument that a critique of Israel is anti-Jewish. If Israel was just a nation where mostly Jewsish people lived, then they couldn't turn political commentary into religious persecution so easily.
It's that Holy Land scam again. Show me one nation on earth that God has forsaken? I have been around the world and there is good and bad everywhere.
In the 21st century, there should not be any nation on earth that calls it self a(religion)______ country.
Humanity is one.
I am stuck on the problem in Palestine.
I cannot see a viable Palestinian state given the facts on the ground: settlements, water control, roads only Israeli Jews can use, no foreign affairs for Palestine, the wall,...
So no two state solution that has any kind of justice for the Palestinians.
I cannot see a one state solution either, even a de centralized federation: we in the West will not allow non Jews in such a stae to have a say over those nuclear weapons in Israel.
Anybody see any other possibilities?
There are people in America that take advantage of "duel citizenship". They call themselves American out front but undercover do everything in their power to undermine America in the name of israel! In the last twenty/thirty years more people in America have been arrested for "spying" for israel then all other countries combined. israel(I have deliberately "not capitalized" the word israel because of my disdain for its misguided policies).I believe that congress should pass laws banning duel citizenship and making the punishment for spying, especially nuclear spying, more stringent.
MikeP - Pull your head of the stolen sands of the West Bank and realize that the cause of the Palestinians has enormous support around the world and that such support is not anti-Semitic, but actually good for Israel. The conflict started because the British gave land that didn't belong to them to somebody else and those who were still on the land rightfully objected. Since then, both sides have made mistakes and caused bloodshed. However, the past is just that and in the present, the current Israeli and US governments are nothing but an obstacle to peace. I am Jewish, I love myself, my faith, my country and Israel, but I ashamed of what the last two are doing supposedly for my benefit.
I agree wholeheartedly with the poster who said that the actions of Likudniks in the US only increase anti-Semitism. The more they defend atrocities the more they endanger Jews worldwide.
Concord,
Actually, Hamas and the palestinians have extended truce, but it has been the israelis that does not accept it. have you ever noticed that all the ceasefire agreements have been broken by the Israelis when they use the ceasefire to commit extra-judicial killings?
Mikep, you are nothing but an ignorant racist zionist stooge.
Every time I hear of the plight of Israeli Jews and Palestinians, and how they continue to rationalize their "right" to a home-land, I want to scream. Just because American Politicians are easily intimidated by Israeli Lobbyist doesn't mean that the American people are.
The struggle for peace in the Middle East is tired and pathetic. Most Americans couldn't tell the difference between an Israeli and Palestinian if their life depended on it. Hell, most Americans can't even find the middle-east, much less Israel, on a map.
Israel is about the size of New Jersey (where Jews and Muslims live in peace!). Please tell me why Israelis and Palestinians think the American People seriously give a damn about two self-serving, intolerant cultures that live halfway around the world? Americans and the International community have "much bigger" fish to fry, such as global warming, for starters.
If you wonder why Americans are about to elect Obama as our next president it's because they're also tired of the petty divisions and ignorance of their own people.
What part of the Holocaust don't Israelis and Palestinians understand? -- the part where the European community recognized their culpability in turning a blind eye to its bigotry and related atrocities, and the reason why European Jews live in peace with their neighbor today. Why is it so hard for Israelis and Palestinians not do the same? Have we not learned anything from history?
To my Jewish and Muslim neighbors: please do the right thing and pressure Israelis and Palestinians to make peace with "their brothers," even if it means giving up a "very little" piece of land. I'd even be willing to suggest that America give-up an equal part of Texas, if it would make a difference.
And yes, Jimmy Carter is God sent, and deserves all the love and respect the Israeli and Palestinians can give him. Frankly, they don't even deserve his continuing concern and kindness after all they've put him through.
We, the majority of American people, are VERY TIRED of this stupid affair. Get a clue, and get over it already!
"You have taken everything, and what is left for me?" said the old man Micah (Old Testament, Judges 18). "Let us hear no more from you...or you may bring about your own destruction and that of your household," replied the Danites [one of the early Hebrew tribes 'looking for a home']. "So taking with them the god that Micah had made and the priest who had served him, the Danites marched against Laish, against a peaceful and trusting people. They slaughtered all the inhabitants and set the town on fire. There was no one to help the town because it was a long way from Sidon and had no relations with the Arameans [to their west and north]. The Danites rebuilt the town and settled in it...." Now we have archaeologists who tell us none of this ever happened, either---you know, everybody else living there just "went away" like "Indians" who were just "disappearing like the dew on the grass before the rising sun" of empire, in Washington Irving's words. NO OTHER NATION ON THE PLANET WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BEHAVE AS ISRAEL HAS AND DOES.
Thank You Johann Hari for speaking up and telling the truth. There are honest Israelis out there like Uri Avnery, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass who do the same. Not surprisungly they are smeared (along with Chomksy and Finklestein and others) as self-hating Jews! Look at those who do the smearing.... Alan Dershowitz, Melanie Phillips, David "Horrorwitz", Daniel Pipes and the morons at Commentary. The quote from Dershowitz supporting ethnic cleansing could have been taken right out of Mein Kampf!!
Israel,if it wanted, could have achieved peace with the Arabs a long time ago, but they keep rejecting it, preferring to use their military to solve political problems. This is bound to fail in the long run. The Palestinians are not going anwhere (unless Israel exterminates them). I have said this before and I will say it again now. Israel's biggest problem is Zionist arrogance coupled with unlimited American stupidity. These are the real threats to Israel's existence. Arabs cannot drive Israel into the sea even if they wanted to (never mind how many times David Hornik says so). Henry Kissinger (one of the world's most pathological liars)once made one accurate statement: "It is far more dangerous to be America's ally than America's enemy". Israel should think seriously about that!
I have a friend who is an award winning non-violent peace activist with a strong academic and engaged background in human rights. A kind and soft-spoken person.
Two years ago he sponsored a non-violent Palestinian activist to speak at a local peace event on human rights. Shortly after the event local Jewish activists accused the sponsor of being "anti-Semitic". The peace organization that he worked with,that relied on minimal funding to operate, was threatened with a lawsuit by a national Jewish organization.
All oppressive and unjust political systems rely heavily on propaganda and intimidation to further their goals and justify their methods and existence. Israel and global supporters of Israel have taken the dark science of media manipulation and the political intimidation of honest critics to unprecedented levels.
Goebbels would be impressed with the global reach and effectiveness of the Zionist thought police.
And whether the rationalizations for such actions are belief in an "Aryan nation" or belief in the ethnocentricity of "God's chosen people" makes very little difference. The end result is a pervasive and cruel human cancer resulting in unnecessary human suffering.
mikep May 8th, 2008 2:11 pm -- "Virtually no one agrees with your position."
Wow! That's either an utterly ridiculous attempt to persuade others that anyone who does not agree is a nobody or just fantastically wishful thinking on your part?
Whatever you may believe (or pretend to believe) the world doesn't actually end at the borders of the U.S. and it's certainly not limited to the so-called "Judeo-Christian" population. In fact, even some USans are beginning to reject the AIPAC propaganda despite all the media complicity. For that matter, support for Zionism has never been universal amongst Jews themselves.
mikep,
Your charges of anti-semitism won't prevent the posters in this forum from speaking the truth.
It is Hamas who has offered cease-fire in several ocassions and the Israel government has refused.
Talk about being braiwashed, it is Israel who is in several violations of international law, e.g. illegal settlers in the West Bank, or the abuses of the occupied peoples, which is in violation of the Geneva Convention.
It is true that in every conflict there are guilty people on both sides, but that doesn't justify defending the actions of a country founded on the blood of the native peoples.
And obviously you have a reading comprehension problem, the article states that 64% of the Israeli population wants their government to start talks with Hamas, so don't say that nobody else agrees with our position.
But of course, every time there is an article about this issue a troll like you appears in Common Dreams, thinking he is going to make us afraid from voicing our opinions, by just spitting the word "anti-semites" and then lots of non sense propaganda.
we must end the anglo/american occupation of the ME, first off by cutting the billions going to israel, else we will continue to be the target of terrorist attacks. the real price of aid to Israel, is 9/11 and the threat of more like it.
mikep; its clear by what you wrote that any discussion with you is hopless. Keep up your narrative based on no truth; you will be ignored, no matter how aggressive you become with your baseless claims.
Hmmm... I wonder which history mikep has been reading? Seems like it's the 'blame the victims' version.
anne faith: The irony is that people such as Dershowitz and Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, in brooking no dissent or criticism of Israel whatsoever, actually only foment hatred of Jews
That's exactly right. In fact, the name Anti-Defamation League is an oxymoron in itself... Anyone who dare critisize the actions of the Israeli government, gets defamed viciously by the ADL. They should just drop the 'anti' from their name.
Also, the charges of antisemitism is thrown around SO quickly and easily that it's really losing any sense of meaning. Whenever anyone calls me antisemitic because of what I say, I just respond with "Yeah, So?". Doesn't mean anything anymore. I'm not a jew-hater or truly anti-semitic, but I do oppose Zionism in all it's forms. Any ideology that places one group above another is morally wrong. We're all human beings for cryin' out loud.
I thought it was the Roman's who started the diaspora from what was the Kingdom of Isreal a few thousand years ago...
The arabs and Palistinians were offered the same sort of peace deal that the native americans were offered, sign a treaty and die in reservations, or just die. Mikep and others ignore the fact that before the Romans sacked Jerusalem the ancestors of the palistinians lived in what is Isreal. Before the Isreali's started their war of independence (using terrorist bombings which killed arabs and englishmen) the palistinians lived in that country. Did the Isreali's offer to buy the land they took by force of arms?
Does one really expect anything less from Alan Dershowitz, the man who defended Klaus von Bulow?
What's loathsome is this never-ending anti-Semitism, and these bizarre one-side views of the war. Once again, the Palestinians and Arabs began this war, and are entirely responsible for it. They have been offered peace many, many times, and have continually rejected it. They simply care more about hating Jews than they do about their own people.
All the Palestinians have to do to end the war they began in flagrant violation of international law and the rulings of the UN is to formally recognize Israel, and change their charters to reflect their permanent acceptance of Israel. Once that is done, negotiations for a permanent peace treaty may begin. But blaming Israel is just insane, and a complete waste of time.
"Why don't we create & organize a sweeping boycott movement"
Because you have absolutely no international support whatsoever. Only a lunatic fringe of anti-Semites. Virtually no one agrees with your position. Go ahead and start your boycotts. Then watch just how little support you get.
Very true, Ken Mitchell.
Sadly, while Hitler was the worst thing that could have happened to Europe's Jews, it was also the worst thing that happened to the Palestinian Arabs.
Pardon my own ignorance of the topic, but aren't the people who lived in Palistine Semetic in origin? If you buy into the creation story aren't all people Jewish?
Whatever the case may be...
The irony is that people such as Dershowitz and Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, in brooking no dissent or criticism of Israel whatsoever, actually only foment hatred of Jews.
Why don't we create & organize a sweeping boycott movement that includes a list of demands of the mainstream media, which would include accurate reporting of the plight of Palestinians and Israel government policies; the embedded Pentagon "experts", and all of the long list of our grievances?? We do have the power, the question is who will provide the leadership? I'm certain tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands, would do it IF they were provided with HOW to do it by leaders.
Another very excellent opinion:
5 Myths About Being 'Pro-Israel'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/08/AR2008050801521.html?hpid=opinionsbox1