This is news?

We could have told them without the study.

Nice to see in print and quantified just how clueless we are.

Funny to see China 12 points ahead of us, when most of the junk we have offered to purchase is made in China. Guess the Chinese can't afford to buy the American brand name stuff they produce.

And we're almost 3 and a 1/2 points behind Canada. Oh boy, here comes ~CanuckChuck~ to harrass us Americans again. And this time he'll be right for a change.

Where's the surprise? USA citizens are 5% of the World's population - yet we consume 25% of the world's resources.

Our consumption lifestyle is causing global warming.

We have met the enemy and the enemy is us.

Ramsay

I scored a 56.

Go to the link in the article and take the test.

I think I could have scored higher but there is no entry for "electric motorcycle" which is my primary personal transportation. And, while the house I bought came with AC, I almost never use it.

Must... resist.... im...pulse to... say: 'I told you so.'

Kem,

Chinese live in small homes, rarely have A/C. They walk, bicycle, transit of use motor scooters (few own cars) for transportation; electric scooters and electric-boost bicycles are popular. They eat locally, and eat little meat. A large majority express considerable concern about the environment. Sounds environmentally responsible to me.

I scored 51, the low score largely a result of living in rural/remote NM (little local food stuffs, no public transport, no recycling, large distances to cover, dirt roads and need a truck for property management and snow mitigation).

I scored 76. Of course I'm soooo good I even hate myself. I never fart either, our cat does.

One has to wonder if we should posit that the quantity of goods and energy we consume has a direct relationship to the quantity (and negative quality) of MARKETING messages that we consume.

Amazingly, we had not long ago a million realtors in America pushing houses at us with heavy emphasis on granite counter tops, pot shelves, "dream" kitchens, huge (energy wasting) windows and rooms for ping-pong tables. Where were the messages to buy small, buy thrifty, minimize debt, conserve energy, share with the world?

Amazingly, even with today's fuel crisis, Cadillac says your car should "turn you on" and Mercedes is advertising the highest horsepower they have ever put in a car.

Amazingly, WE PAY cable companies to run consumer ads into most households on 60 channels----24/7.

Amazingly, corporations have "freedom of speech" to do all this in ways citizens cannot seem to control. Multi-nation surveys on the marketing side might be more enlightening on the question of "why".

Gee Kem, I was able to score 77 by living alone in a 1-room cave with no electricity, owning no consumer goods, and consuming only vegan foodstuffs that I grow myself. Maybe you are a saint.

Great post Daniel David. I scored 68, and I am planning to move closer to work so I can bike every day.

I'm guessing the mass poverty in the first half-dozen countries on the list has a lot to do with what we might mistakenly see as eco-consideration of the consumers in those countries. Don't believe it for a second. When given the chance, all peoples will behave like complete pigs ...I have no doubt. Let's not get some kind of message that Brazilians or Indians are genuinely more thoughtful of mother Earth when the truth is, they simply haven't as much access to her rape as North Americans and Europeans do.

This problem is not going to be solved by individual conscientiousness because human beings are, like all animals, inherently selfish. If it makes life easier, any people anywhere will take it and run. To balance this, we require a solution from the top. Clean energy and sustainability will have to be imposed upon the people of the world, otherwise it's only going to remain the fad that it is.

At any rate, the scoring system isn't sensitive enough.

If you visit the site, large changes in energy consumng habits only buy you a few points. Europe uses half the fossil fuel energy per capita as the US, but only scores 5-6 points better.

In another attempt, adjusting a few things, but still reasonably realistic, (Lots of local stuff available in Pennsylvania) new score 62.

Stilba: Not everyone behaves like pigs, even when given the chance. We have the means in terms of affluence to live like pigs. We live in a small house, so insulated that we never use the AC and we live without heat in the winter (not that hard, I admit, in Northern CA -- never colder inside than 55 deg. F). We make do with one small car. We grow food. We do without modern toys -- no digital camera, no flat-screen TV, no TV at all, in fact. We do have one cell phone for emergencies. All appliances energy-efficient. We use no plastic bags. We recycle all metal, paper, and plastic. We have a compost pile. Xeriscaped yard so all we have to irrigate is the food garden. We are going solar this summer. I could go on but you get the picture. I admit our lifestyle demands computers; we have five laptops between the two of us, and all are in constant use.

It IS possible to listen to one's mind and not one's greedy little id. It IS possible to act like an adult and not a selfish child. It takes time to act like an adult -- it isn't always easy or convenient having only one car -- we have to schedule things carefully. It takes time to compost, time to sort the recyclables and set them out for pick-up. Tending a food garden takes a lot of time, which I recognize not everyone has. Not everyone can afford to install solar panels on the roof. But anyone can say no to digital toys, and it doesn't cost that much to insulate your house, or turn the heat down to 55 degrees. With enough clothes, 55 deg. can be perfectly comfortable.

Not everyone is a selfish monster.

!ENO REBMUN ER'EW
!ENO REBMUN ER'EW
!ENO REBMUN ER'EW
!ENO REBMUN ER'EW

ACC - I agree with all that you said, but you can't deny that the majority of people don't give a goddamn about growing their own food or not buying electronics they don't really need. By what you say, you are in a small minority. Yes, I agree completely that it IS possible to behave as an "adult" on this matter, and maybe we're all getting better at that; but most people don't, and won't, until they have to. This doesn't mean people are selfish monsters ...but they are selfish, and there's initially nothing wrong with that...

It didn't have a place to put "don't own a vehicle." What's up with that?

I just took the 'Greendex' test.

Scored a 65. Worse than I thought.

But WAAAAAAAAAY better than the entire USA.

Snicker.

I got a fifty one! I thought I was so virtuous. Basically I was betrayed by my van. Could someone explain to me why they can't make a hybrid van? I'm not even a car designer and I have a plan how it could be done. Put a metal box on the back of a Prius. There. I've done it. I've invented the hybrid van. I'm being sarcastic. Okay?

KEM PATRICK, WTF, GALEN ET AL

something funny here. i only scored 67 and i don't have a t.v., a car, a washing machine, an a/c; i only have 2 rooms, i don't eat any meat/fish, i buy locally, walk, recycle, never buy imported foods, live alone, wash clothes in cold water most of the time, use electricity generated by windmills, and only have 1 computer. i know kem has a t.v. and a car (probably a lamborghini to chase all the gals!!) and he grows his own food. but sometimes buys from the store. so where did i go wrong? and why do i keep getting messages from the canadian pharmacy to buy 'secure viagra'.? what the hell is secure viagra? and what would i do with it? (don't answer that kem.......)i must say, i'm disappointed with my score relating to others who have more environmentally 'unfriendly' contraptions. i must try harder.............. i'm surprised to see france so far down on the list, but then they do kill millions of animals a year for consumption. poor frogs............

CACTUSPIE

yes, if you're from brazil, then !eno rebnum era uoy.........snoitalutargnoc

"Our consumption lifestyle is causing global warming.

We have met the enemy and the enemy is us."

I beg to disagree...

We are hardly any different than people around the world. We fuction inside the systems in which we are born.

And Americans are born into a corporate defined reality. Foodstuffs are largely only available by car trip... and what is on the shelves originates today, more and more, from agribusiness concerns in distant lands...

Independent and local operators are rare in our society. Everyone is scripted to operate as some sort of drone in the corporate/military state. And, of all the lifestyles, the military one is the least ecological... and our corporate lifestyles are largely defined by this 'efficiency' model.

Americans are certainly NOT the problem. The systems (corporate/military controlled) in which we operate coerce everyone!

Tap water is filled with recycled pharmaceuticals... so we must buy bottled water to avoid drugging ourselves…

In my neighborhood, biking is almost as dangerous as hang gliding… either you drive everywhere, or you get used as target practice… parks are far, not near… and those that exist are hardly invigorating with patrols everywhere and pesticides being sprayed to tame 'invasive' species! All, of course to keep the 'wild' places 'wild'!

America the beautiful is indeed America the corporate controlled, total surveillance society. In the seventies, some folks thought support of organic farmers was important. So, after opposing this concept for decades, corporations today embrace it and use it to sell even more agribusiness crap.

Whole Foods, Trader Joes? Alternatives? To what? Shelf space is controlled. Prices are out of sight and the foodstuffs are getting even less healthy… while the independents now have no one to market their goods to the public.

STOP BLAMING THE PEOPLE!!!! There are NO choices for most of them! Sure, if you are independently wealthy or pulling down outrageous salaries for being able to make your personal uselessness look interesting, you may be able to pick and choose… but most people have no such option!

Finally, businesses that provide really eco-conscious solutions are widely opposed by traditional interests, including access to capital. Even the smallest footprint gets opposed even by police and government agents… I have been told, "Well, we must be careful that you do not compete with Starbucks!!!!" Later, we were denied permits and then told that others, not doing eco-businesses were awarded them!

The corporations love that everyone should blame themselves for the state of affairs… that way you simply never understand, this mess is by design… and if you try to affect it, in any real way, you will be stalked, your home will be vandalized, you will be slandered, and in many cases, your life will be threatened, repeatedly!!!

I know.

The public is entirely innocent and simply has NO idea why they do not have better communities and healthier more ecological choices readily available without unnecessary trouble.

INWO- With the coming food riots in the States, there is s simple solution.

Cannibalism.

Ted Turner has no illusions and expects it to start very soon.

Heck, he sounded like he couldn't wait to start.

So, eat the rich.

It will be self defense.

And they will be easy to find. They will be the only one's who will be able to afford the gas for their SUV's.

To those who said (or tried not to say) "I told you so," here's a quote from the Green Index report that I found surprising:

"Chinese and Indian respondents are ... more likely than people in other countries to say they have installed solar panels at their residence to heat water. Consumers in China, Brazil, Hungary, India,Mexico, and Russia, all emerging economies, are also more likely than others to say that they plan to make changes to their residence that will reduce its footprint, such as installing insulation and thermal windows, solar panels, and energy saving appliances and heating systems."

So, it's not just that "developing" country populations have a lower standard of living causing them to consume less. It sounds to me like they have a higher environmental consciousness.

I agree with Daniel David that it would be interesting to see the degree that different societies are cramming environmentally damaging goods and practices down the throats of their citizens.

I'm a breatharian, requiring no food or water, and live in a temperate climate tent, so although I actually scored a 100, I am giving myself a 97 for psychological self-indulgence because occasionally I float over to a friends house and just for amusement watch Billy Orielly on TV screaming about something.

I scored only slightly better than the average American, despite being highly aware of our problems. The following is a frank look at our slice of life perhaps some of you will identify with.

First of all, NO CHILDREN!!!, but the Greendex doesn't ask about that. Never will have children, by choice.

I drive no more than 8000 miles/year and fly maybe once/year. We don't take exotic vacations - a few local ones per year. The Greendex doesn't ask about that.

Our incomes permit us to pay our mortgage, buy food, clothes, and other necessities, and save a little, but we don't have a lot of money left over for major improvements and projects.

I suspect one of the biggest killers for me is the car - I drive alone to work five days a week. The route is too difficult to bike, and public transportation is not an option, unless I want to spend over 1 hour each way, vs. 15 minutes by car. No thanks - free time is highly valuable - could specifically seek out a job within biking or public transpo distance, but getting a decent, enjoyable job is hard enough in the metro area without heaping on that restriction. We have a few toys, the "standard" US ones - 2 computers, 1 tv, 1 dvd, 1 dvr, 1 digital camera, 1 mp3 player. The computers and the tv/dvd/dvr get a lot of use. My household's 2 cars are both compacts - could buy hybrids or other higher-mileage cars, but that benefit requires significant money outlay. We live in a small house by American standards, 900 finished sq. ft. and 200 unfinished - I still had to answer 7 rooms, but the rooms are all small. We have 1 washer/dryer/stove/fridge/microwave, none specifically energy efficient. We keep the heat at 70 in the winter - we can improve on that, but the house feels cold otherwise despite extra clothing and blankets, probably because we live in an old house with old insulation and single-pane windows - significant money outlays to improve. Our 1/3-acre property is a mini-forest, almost entirely shaded, and therefore not good for growing many crops - tear down peaceful trees to grow a better garden? We've cut back to very little red meat, still much chicken and fish - working on vegetarianism. I buy convenient though simple foods at the store and I shun excessive packaging - could work on farmer's market food, though there will be a premium for that. NO bottled water. We recycle all of our packaging etc., but we don't compost. No solar, xeriscaping, or other more exotic energy-saving measures, mainly because of cost and lack of know-how. We tend to use our appliances and electronics for a long time, until very worn out. I hate spending money on clothes and wear the same simple things until ragged.

I spend most of my discretionary money on books (often used), board games now and then, or a new part for the computer now and then - admittedly all luxuries, though I don't consider us to be trapped in a consumer mindset, because we're aware and because we don't feel the need to accumulate material things for status or because of commercial duping. We mindfully buy specific things because they fulfill our specific wants. We rent Netflix. We spend most of free time using the computer (energy usage, though I adopt power-saving computer parts when the price gets low enough), reading, watching cable tv or movies, petting the cats, looking out the window.

#1 in cruelty, conformity, war crimes, and stupidity though...

USA
USA
USA

Oh wait...

It was our cat that brought us down WTF. Not a Saint but am workng on it. I watch a pretty neighbor gal with my binocks when she wears skimpy shorts and halter and shampoos her vet. ___ A blond too. That's 12 points off.

"I'm a breatharian, requiring no food or water..."

Actually, you are (and so is the rest of your species) an herbivorous human monkey...

The Herbivore Awareness Project http://allinharmony.org

requiring quite substantial amounts of fresh (tree and/or bush ripened) produce... and, were you (and the other members of your species) indulging such...

The end of human ecological blindness and consequent environmental destructions would be predictable.

Hi ~COCO~, what kind of geese can't fly?

~Portcha-geese~.

Hey that "secure Viagara" is to be used in a secure place. You give it to a handsome friend you have invited over to play chess.

I scored a 53, I think it was mostly due to having no control over my housing situation. After losing our house because of the housing market in MN. (No we didn't get "creative" financing, my husband was a realtor, lucky us). Anyway many of those questions were aimed at home owners, where are the majority of citizens living ? After the housing crisis, we're all renting, and don't have much control over how insulated, efficient etc. our residences are. We had no choice but to find the cheapest housing we could (that of course, took pets, can't leave your family behind), and we have no choice about transportation there are about 20 jobs available in a county of hundreds of thousands of people. Life is a series of tradeoffs. When you're eating from the local food shelf, you don't get to even choose where your food comes from, you're just happy to be able to eat for one more week. I agree we can't blame people (well maybe a little) but it is the system that's broken, in turn it breaks the people in it. Let's not burden each other with blame.

HI ~COCO~ If you use my formula, you would be way over 100 points. We have cut our drivig down from an average of 10,000 miles a year to 5,000 and we drive 58 mph max. That's +10 points. Can't afford the gas to drive 10,000 miles.

I use an electirc weed eater, +5 points. We have a garden and orchard +15 points, no power tools or tractor there either. We have a solar water heater +10 points. We have a Franklin wood burnng stove, but only use wood from dead trees. Minus -5 points for the smoke, plus +10 points for not using oil or gas.

We have a Boneville and a Ford F-150, but they are critial necessities as are our electric stove and oven, micro-wave, fans lights, dish and clothes washers, vacumn and power tools, computer, TVs, sterio, toaster and blender. No lost points there for absolute necessities.

We use a solar oven half of the time, +10 points. We don't drive 50 miles every Sunday to attend a church, +10 points. We feed the birds and fill their bird bath every day, +4 points. We buy our clothing at the thrift stores, +6 points. We don't ever fart, +2 points, but our cat does, -1 point. TOTAL: +76.

itsaNaziWorldOrder May 8th, 2008 2:43 pm, I agree with your post, this survey tells us nothing. I live in Mexico and the Mexicans I know buy what they want and never even think about "green". OK, go out into the poor sections of town and people don't eat and live like the affluent Mexicans so I guess if your are poor and live with a tin-can roof and walls of scrap lumber with enough to eat to meet the minimum calories of survival you will rate high on the green index. Another thing, in Mexico recycling, although they are at least talking about it in the schools is basically done when stuff is scavenged from trash. One can collect enough aluminum cans to recycle if you have a car to move it but other than that there is no little handy recycle bins for you to sort things or any way that I know of to recycle glass, paper, tin and cardboard like there is in the U.S.

Stilba says:
"I'm guessing the mass poverty in the first half-dozen countries on the list has a lot to do with what we might mistakenly see as eco-consideration of the consumers in those countries."

Dan (rocyahsoul) says:
Agreed, poverty is why these people are today not overconsuming.

Stilba says:
"When given the chance, all peoples will behave like complete pigs…"

Dan says:
WHAT!? How does this flow naturally forth from "poverty as a barrier to consumption"? I fail to see the connection, nor detect any factual basis tieing poverty as a barrier to consumption and greed nor waste nor gluttony.

Stilba says:
"I have no doubt. Let's not get some kind of message that Brazilians or Indians are genuinely more thoughtful of mother Earth when the truth is, they simply haven't as much access to her rape as North Americans and Europeans do."

Dan says:
I see you're setting the consumer up as the rapist in this statement.

STilba says:
"This problem is not going to be solved by individual conscientiousness because human beings are, like all animals, inherently selfish."

Dan says:
While inherited selfishness is a possible truth, due our being born feeling our own emotions most keenly; when dealing with those who recognize their self is hugely dependent on the actions, habits and concern of others, it becomes abundantly clear that our lives WILL be impacted by others; others whom if well doing tend to do well by others. This truth has the effect of benefiting those who benefit many. Compromise toward mutual benefit is not incompatible with industrial society, nor division of labor, nor satellite technology. Capitalism enforces division, not of labor, but of people. Governments today enforce division of people. Governments need to submit to the people's will by referendum. Your top down solution is the problem that made this mess in the first place. The People are not deciding industrial policy, enforcing green energy solutions, making vehicle production decisions! Hydro power could have been tapped across the whole of the ocean and the length of every river in America, instead we're 51% dependent on dirty burning coal for electricity!

Silba says:
"If it makes life easier, any people anywhere will take it and run."

Oh, OK, the rapist thieving everybody... Let me guess what's next, the reality less than a tenth of a percent of people who murder in their lifetime is to be made out to be everybody as a murderer...

Silba says:
"To balance this, we require a solution from the top."

Dan says:
Top solution is a solution that will maintain and benefit the TOP. Which might also be said, the VERY worst people of all time.

Silba says:
"Clean energy and sustainability will have to be imposed upon the people of the world, otherwise it's only going to remain the fad that it is."

Dan says:
Clean energy is not what's being imposed. Death by pollution and climate change (ice age) and nuclear weapons and robot attack jets (ucav) and satellite weapons, death is what's being imposed on the world. It's pretty obvious to those who've been paying attention so far, what's up, and it's not some government program to build Wind Turbines for everyone.

I agree with those who say the tool is imperfect, or you have to manipulate it to get the answers you want. I had to answer "no" to all the questions about energy-efficient windows, etc because I did that 11 years ago, not in the last 1 or 5 years. And I do have an air conditioner, but I use it once or twice or never each summer.

Having is not the point. Having a Prius and driving it across the country for vacations is probably worse than having an SUV and driving it seldom. It's how you use the things you have, and minimizing the amount and volume of things you have, that really matters.

I don't blame the makers of the index, but I can surely see a lot of flaws in the questions.

itsaNaziWorldOrder writes: "STOP BLAMING THE PEOPLE!!!! There are NO choices for most of them! Sure, if you are independently wealthy or pulling down outrageous salaries for being able to make your personal uselessness look interesting, you may be able to pick and choose...but most people have no such option!"

-

They had the option of kicking Bush out of the White House in 2004, but chose not too.

maplefudge wrote: I got a fifty one! I thought I was so virtuous.

Ditto. This makes me suspect that the poll is grossly inadequate. I am very respectful of others that do well in the poll, but just a few items (e.g. my truck) killed my score. Given that EVERYTHING I have I purchase/barter/find is used (except socks, underwear, articles of hygiene and food), I expected to have done better.

The poll could be better by considering:
- electricity consumption (KwH) both at home and work;
- # of pounds of new consumer goods purchased each year;
- percentage of owned goods (measured in pounds) that were second-hand when purchased/bartered/found;
- number of friends who are like-minded
- number of Republican friends (just kidding)
- volunteer work
etc, etc, etc.

I'm sure y'all have many suggestions as well. Regardless of how the poll is framed, the US will be near the bottom anyway.

OK, I got a 66 and am considered a rather eccentric oddball when compared to the rest of my community. Since I just heard a Prius ad stating 40mpg and my little 1993 Honda Civic can get 49mph (when I am driving out of town and about 39 when driving in town) because I drive rather slowly and have a standard, I checked the box for "hybrid car" since mine actually does better than the advertised mpg for a hybrid. So why in the world can't hybrids get better mileage than that??
I totally agree that unless we are willing to be labeled a bit odd, we are trapped in a society owned and operated by corporations for their profit. I buy everything except food and computers (sorry) used. I will not be totally owned by the corporate thugs running this country or believe their ridiculous ads based on fear, personal greed or the need to prove myself better (more stuff that is newer than anyone else's stuff around me). I shop at the Goodwill, flea markets and yard sales and there is an abundance of stuff available to please everyone in these places! Because of the high price of gas flea markets are suffering- the sellers and buyers are thinking twice about using the gas to get there- luckily I have some great ones nearby. Years and years ago I quit buying new stuff, recycled, always had a tiny car, use a water filter- these are not hard things to do and don't cramp my style a bit!

Soylent Green, anyone?

And no more Charlton Heston to save us.

Dan, I wish I had more time, but here goes, misspellings and all:

Dan (rocyahsoul) says:
Agreed, poverty is why these people are today not overconsuming.

Stilba says:
Ok, I see already you're going to take apart every bloody sentence, even the ones you don't need to, just to be kind of a prick.

Dan says:
WHAT!? How does this flow naturally forth from "poverty as a barrier to consumption"? I fail to see the connection, nor detect any factual basis tieing poverty as a barrier to consumption and greed nor waste nor gluttony.

Stilba says:
The point was simple enough, and hardly called for any caps, let alone an exclamation point. Poverty does not allow people to overconsume, but in the more prosperous parts of the world, we see only consumer-madness. In China, Russia, and India, aren't you following how new prosperity is allowing the people to buy all the crap they don't need ...just like in N. America? Look into it ...those who can are buying as fast as we (as a society) are.

Dan says:
I see you're setting the consumer up as the rapist in this statement.

Stilba:
I see you're catching on with this statement.

Dan says:
While inherited selfishness is a possible truth, due our being born feeling our own emotions most keenly; when dealing with those who recognize their self is hugely dependent on the actions, habits and concern of others, it becomes abundantly clear that our lives WILL be impacted by others; others whom if well doing tend to do well by others. This truth has the effect of benefiting those who benefit many. Compromise toward mutual benefit is not incompatible with industrial society, nor division of labor, nor satellite technology. Capitalism enforces division, not of labor, but of people. Governments today enforce division of people. Governments need to submit to the people's will by referendum. Your top down solution is the problem that made this mess in the first place. The People are not deciding industrial policy, enforcing green energy solutions, making vehicle production decisions! Hydro power could have been tapped across the whole of the ocean and the length of every river in America, instead we're 51% dependent on dirty burning coal for electricity!

Stilba:
While you agree inherited selfishness is a possible truth, you feel the need to emphasize empathy over capitalism and "government". More or less, we agree to this point, and maybe beyond. While top-down may have created the problem, top-down's going to fix it ...you're probably right-on further down when you call that top-down "death by pollution and climate change." I'm a cynic, but I'd hoped it could be done human-wise. As an afterthought, you tackle inefficiancy. Again, we're agreed, though I didn't get around to it in my original post.

Dan says:
Oh, OK, the rapist thieving everybody… Let me guess what's next, the reality less than a tenth of a percent of people who murder in their lifetime is to be made out to be everybody as a murderer…

Stilba says:
Here you compare consumers and murders, but that doesn't square very well. One finite, terrible act is not the same as little, tiny, numerous events over decades. I mean, I'm not trying to be all hostile to you personally, Dan, but you kind of have to accept that we're all part of this problem, even if you do bike to work (or whatever the case may be). Your words come off smug here. Well, maybe rape's a strong word. I hear it thrown around a lot here on CD, and elsewhere, so I used it.

Dan says:
Top solution is a solution that will maintain and benefit the TOP. Which might also be said, the VERY worst people of all time.

Stilba says:
As long as there have been people, the TOP have always been benefitting from ...whatever we've been doing. Someday, maybe, maybe, maybe, we can get past that evil. However, what I'm getting at is a matter of priority (kind of like Gandhi's "Sanitation is more important than independence"). Beggars can't be choosers; and while I hope that's not what it comes to, my anxious wait for the sheeple (with a raised right fist) to get right on top of this global warming thing ...has thus far been a little disappointing.

Dan says:
Clean energy is not what's being imposed. Death by pollution and climate change (ice age) and nuclear weapons and robot attack jets (ucav) and satellite weapons, death is what's being imposed on the world. It's pretty obvious to those who've been paying attention so far, what's up, and it's not some government program to build Wind Turbines for everyone.

Stilba says:
You wrap it up with a list of modern evils. Clever. Yet again, I think we agree. As said above, I concede the pnotion that death may be the great top-down. But at the end of your shredding my original post, I had really hoped you'd have left us with some sort of solution (or even a cliche, a power-to-the-people, or something). Instead, just a list. I mean, man, you could've just typed up your list. A lot of work for ...what?

Right you are, gellero. I can report from North Africa and Russia that the problem is absurdly bad ...garbage flies into people's faces on the streets. Coming back to an American city, it seems utterly pristine in comparison to anything abroad, excepting a few spots in west Europe.

Stilba is right. People look out for themselves. How they accomplish that depends on how their respective society is organized. The US has organized around self-agrandizing, adolescent values and, unforutunately, is vigorously exporting that model world-wide.

I disagree with those who claim 'the people' are at the mercy of 'the corporations'. Just who do you think owns, manages and operates these corporations? The very same people, millions, in fact, who are, supposedly, being helplessly victimized by the same. Which supports Stilbas contention; I'm not holding my breath waiting for the revolution, either.

Statistical BS.......Having been to China 6 times over 15 years, I can attest that the Chinese have no environmental consciousness at all. Garbage strewn anywhere, industrial waste everywhere. Truth, lies, and statistics. Unfortunately, the Luddites of the USA fall for this bullshit.

"They had the option of kicking Bush out of the White House in 2004, but chose not too."

And that would have accomplished what? Granted Bush is insane and quite unethical... but Kerry too is an elitist and fully supported the war corporations (as did all the other Dem candidates… ("I don't know why everyone is so critical of me, all of us (referring to the democratic primary candidates) have the same (corporate) advisors except Kucinich" Dean).

Political offices do not affect policy. That understanding comes after years of efforts to work within the system... and then some 'lucky' inclusions in 'closed door' sessions.

Forget the vote. Demand that lifestyle changes be supported... and then you will meet the 'real deal', the military and corporate elite and the secret service jackboots who keep resources and opportunity unfairly under their control.

It works that way here, it works that way in South America, and it works that way in China. Same system, different lies to cover up the totalitarian infrastructure.

"Statistical BS…….Having been to China 6 times over 15 years, I can attest that the Chinese have no environmental consciousness at all. Garbage strewn anywhere, industrial waste everywhere. Truth, lies, and statistics. Unfortunately, the Luddites of the USA fall for this bullshit."

And the fault for this situation should be placed where? There is a good video called "China Blue" http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22China+Blue%22&sitesearch=

In the early seventies a group of corporate business and military planners visited China to begin its restructuring, of those present, I knew two of them; Ms. Kallgren, a professor from Berkeley and Jim Yosten, a high level no-nonsense 'turn-around' expert for United Corp who also had strong Air Force and mafia ties.

There is no question in my mind that China's revisioning was just as planned as Indonesia's (look up Sukarno and genocide of 1967) and planned by the same interests.

If you think the Chinese people can affect a better outcome, then you have never tried to implement community programs that were in conflict with the state of controlled ignornance, poverty and disease desired by the world's elite for so many.

Wait a minute...

There is something wrong here. China and Mexico are at the top of the survey? I have been to Mexico, but not Mexico City home of 19.2 million people. China in itself is 3 times the population of the U.S.A. at a staggering 1.25 billion people. Both of these geographical areas are shinning examples of how to ignore the ecological ramifications of modern societies, following in our footsteps of course. You see very little "GREEN living" in Mexico. I would have to guess that this is the same for China - taken from a friend's description of China's large dirty cities.

I get what the survey intended to produce, but it is seriously flawed. 90% of peopled survey always tell you what they think you want to hear. If you follow the same people around and watch what the actually do and you will see it differs from how they portrayed their habits in the survey, this is well known information. The truth is always in anonymous observation techniques not surveys.

A lot of people like the idea of green, but they have no idea of what it takes to live green. Want to know what it feels like to live green: cut your electrical consumption by 2/3rds and use your car once a week.

Repeat this mantra every day upon rising: Wood is bad. Bamboo is good. Hemp is good. Tesla sports car good. Hummer is very bad.

KEM-so YOU'RE the creepy dude watching me with the binoculars....

I scored a 69...go ahead...get your adolescent chuckles from that.

COCO-I think the amount of people living in my house gave me a higher score, we do the same types of things you mentioned doing.

"When given the choice between two, always pick the third."

The third option is; build sustainable communities.

Create reasonable methods to accomodate exchange (redefine currencies to reflect ecological requirements, etc.)

Support local production as much as is possible.

Outlaw government and corporate collusion such as the phony 'redevlopment' plans and projects for towns, cities and regions that essentially remove the poor and independents (and/or further disenfranchise them) and give huge handouts to major corporations.

The survey tests a combination of envoronmental (particularly fossil fuel) footpring plus attitudes. An average Chinese, Mexican or Brazilian has a vastly smaller carbon and most other pollutant footprint than a USAn, period.