High Oil Prices for Obama and Clinton
The arguing between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton over the inane gas-tax holiday is more telling for what is not said than whether Obama is elitist for snubbing it or whether Clinton is a pander bear for supporting it. Both are still cubs nursing in big oil’s den.
When Exxon Mobil last week posted its second-highest quarterly profits ever, $10.9 billion, Clinton said, “This is truly Dick Cheney’s wonderland. But on Main Street, middle class families are facing devastating choices every day between buying groceries and filling up their gas tanks . . . We need to set a new course for our long-term energy strategy and move away from oil.”
Two days before Exxon’s profits were announced, Obama said oil companies “are making billions and it’s time we made them give back . . . what we’re talking about now is a Washington con game, and I think the American people are smarter than Washington and will see right through it.”
Unfortunately, it is easy to see through the posturing of Clinton and Obama. They need to do some gas rationing of their own.
Historically, political contributions from oil companies are owned by the Republicans. All top 20 recipients of cumulative contributions from Exxon Mobil since 1990 are Republicans with President Bush at the top, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics. But with a Democrat having a real shot at the White House, Obama and Clinton reside in their own wonderland, railing against the oil companies while taking money from industry employees.
In the 2008 election cycle the second-biggest recipient of contributions from Exxon after the $39,730 for Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, is Obama at $23,550. Clinton is in fourth place at $15,700. Both are ahead of the $8,450 for John McCain, the virtual nominee of the Republican Party.
Then there’s Chevron. The all-time leader in contributions from that company since 1990 is former California congressman Richard Pombo. Pombo was ousted from his House seat in 2006 in a fierce campaign by environmentalists enraged by his attempts to gut the Endangered Species Act. But guess who is now number three in money from Chevron in the 2008 cycle? Clinton, at $9,350. Obama is seventh, at $7,263. Again, both are ahead of McCain’s $5,500.
How about British Petroleum? Its top-three all-time recipients in contributions since 1990 are Representative Don Young of Alaska, Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska, and Bush (uh, could that have anything to do with drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?). But look now who’s doing the drilling. The number two recipient in the current cycle is Obama at $10,196, more than double what BP has given to Stevens.
Now, what Obama’s and Clinton’s handlers will be quick to say is that these few thousands of dollars are a pittance in the millions being raised by their campaigns, well below the threshold of influencing their political stances. Obama may say that his cash from Big Oil must be put in perspective with the fact that he is also the top recipient in the 2008 cycle of contributions from the alternative energy industry, $45,650.
But the symbolism of Clinton replacing Pombo at the top of the Chevron food chain, Obama replacing the Alaska congressional delegation at the top of BP’s charts and Obama being number two in current Exxon cash is ominous. How far would Clinton really go with energy “solutions,” and how much would Obama actually “change” the oil-to-policy pipeline in Washington?
According to the Center for Responsive Politics, McCain is still the overall leader in money from the oil and gas industry at $515,486. But Clinton and Obama are on their own slippery oil slopes, at $353,723 and, $266,097, respectively. The Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania recently reported that Obama has also received nearly $10,000 from employees at Shell. Clinton can blabber about Cheney’s wonderland. Obama can talk piously about Washington con games.
Until they announce they will reject any oil money, this is a Shell game.
Derrick Z. Jackson can be reached at jackson@globe.com.
© Copyright 2008 Globe Newspaper Company
Nationalize’em.
Thank you, Mr. Jackson, for an almost unprecedented story on this website that is an “equal opportunity” critic of the rhetoric of both Clinton and Obama. When people make their choices of “lesser evilism” between these two candidates, articles like yours will give them pause to think their voting reaction should be “neither of the above.”
OK.
So, it’s time to replace oil.
With what?
Wind? Nope. Dependent upon weather. No wind, no power.
Solar? Nope. Needs sunshine. No sun, no power. Even during the day, if it rains, no power.
Bio-fuels? HAH! Besides being BLENDED with PETROLEUM, they take food out of the mouths of people. And hungry people get mean in a hurry. As we are presently observing.
Pure alcohol fuels? Same problems as above. Besides, it takes took much acreage that NEEDS to be used for human food production, never mind if you are using wood chips or whatever.
Nuclear? Sure. Why not? But where do you put the million year plus dangerous waste?
Coal? Dirty, dangerous to extract, and all the best coal beds are already played out. We’re going after the scraps right now as it is.
Geo-thermal? Bloody inconvenient, because you have to source it from geological hotspots.
Hydrogen? Total noodle doodle. It takes more energy to get the hydrogen out of whatever source you are using that the energy you obtain. It’s a net LOSS of energy. The ‘hydrogen Economy’ is a PR fantasy promoted to distract you.
Besides, with all of these ‘alternative’ energy sources have the same set of BASIC flaws: They cannot be used to make fertilizer. They cannot be used for the production of plastics. They cannot be used for the production of pesticides. They are not anywhere as energy dense as oil. Thy are not as easily portable as oil.
AND THEY ARE ALL DEPENDENT UPON OIL FOR EXTRACTION AND PROCESSING!
GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS DAMN IT!
NO OIL, NO MODERN TECHNOLOGY! NO MODERN TECHNOLOGY, NO MODERN SOCIETY!
No habitable planet, no people!!!
Galen, that’s one way to frame the arguement.
Here’s another.
We can reduce the amount of oil we need, starting now, every year, forever, and keep our internet and our way of life.
First, we have to waste less. Smaller vehicles, less driving/shipping, more rail, more efficient buildings. Huge reductions possible right there.
Geothermal can work almost anywhere, with a heat pump, and can produce significant savings, heating and cooling.
Hydroelectic is a delightful option you don’t mention. In some cases, it can store up potential when solar or wind are doing hard work.
You’re right to say that no one source can do it, and that it can’t be done right away. But you’d have to be an idiot to not be able to think more broadly or beyond right now.
Galen, why would you think that we would use just one of those technologies to produce energy?
The answer will be cutting out the waste and using as many different energy producing techonologies as we can, not just one.
Sounds like you are praying for the end to me. If modern society is going down we might as well at least go down trying.
Exactly Galen, as much as we wish for an alternative to oil & natural gas, there is nothing, absolutely ZERO, no product and/or process which can replace fossil fuels, particularily oil….anywhere on the horizon - PERIOD!! We have entered a new and frightening age, the fact 99% of people don’t realise this surprises me not at all.
Derrick sounds very naive. Anybody with an IQ above a shoe size knows you can’t keep big oil money out of a politican’s hands whether they seek it or not. If the money doesn’t come through the front door, it comes through the back, or from the side, or from the freakin’ chimney.
There’s nothing ordinary citizens can do about it but complain.
You can bet your sweet dollar that any technical advantages to be made using alternative resources will be controlled by those same oil giants we despise. Thus, the corporate players will always be the same, the energy costs will always be the same, the politicans will always be the same. Get over it.
Oil rules!
PhoenixDown May 6th, 2008 2:17 pm ~~There’s nothing ordinary citizens can do about it but complain.~~
Ordinary citizens are the ones burning the oil. Driving the SUVs. Commuting. Heating the big drafty homes. Eating the tomatoes trucked up from Argentina. The governments and the oilcos can’t force them to keep doing it.
Bad news for the Obama faithful:
“Obama’s Money Cartel”
http://www.counterpunch.com/martens05052008.html
I haven’t yet read the complete article, but the following seems reality-based on the topic of today’s petrol. prices.
“‘Perhaps 60% of today’s oil price is pure speculation’
by F. William Engdahl
Global Research, May 2, 2008″
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8878
Ms Billary also seems likely, if not definitely, to be guilty of breaking U.S. laws regulating political campaigns, or those for presidential [administration] (not supposed to be empire, but only admin. stuff) anyway. This is briefly described in the following article, which is short, but mostly about McCain also seeming to be guilty for accepting foreign support, financial and other “services”. McCain-Rothschilds vs Billary-Elton John (clown).
“McCain accused of accepting improper donations from Rothschilds
Global Research, April 30, 2008
guardian.co.uk - 2008-04-29″
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8856
Many people seem to have a problem accepting the fact that a black presidential candidate cannot also be a shill for the corporate Draculas running this country through the office of Dick Cheney. But Obama is such a shill. He won’t get us out of Iraq; he won’t get us off of oil by creating an all-out domestic Marshall Plan to create alternative and sustainable energy sources in this country; he won’t espouse national health insurance; he will not attempt to save the public school system; he will not bring back the idea of a common good. He is a contemporary, post-Bill Clinton Democrat which means . . . well, not much. However, things are now so desperate and seemingly hopeless that if HRC doesn’t steal the nomination, I’ll hold my nose and vote for him, if for no other reason than that any Obama nominee for the Supreme Court won’t be a Scalia or a Thomas.
I for one am pleased that energy prices are finally reaching these levels - and I hope they continue to climb.
The politicians - with the exception of Rep. Dingell - don’t have the courage to raise energy prices in the face of our huge carbon consumption problems.
A higher price for gasoline, home heating oil, electricity generated from carbon sources - all of it - is a GOOD thing. It is the one signal that common folks can understand that will lead them to use less energy.
Please bear in mind that oil production in Mexico and Russia is in sharp decline.
That means there is even less oil to go around.
Mexico was the number three exporter to the US for oil. The Caspian Basin oil field (the tactical basis for the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan) was FAR smaller than predicted, and is on Russia’s doorstep.
And oil just popped over $122 /bbl. And is EXPECTED to go MUCH higher.
Peak oil is no longer coming.
It is here.
Mike Corbeil May 6th, 2008 3:41 pm
“‘Perhaps 60% of today’s oil price is pure speculation’
Nice! Use less oil, wipe the speculators out. Oops… Then they speculate into food… Darn!
See what happens when investment banks get hundreds of billions of dollars to play with to cover their most recent round of losses? Never shoulda happened. They used to give liquidity injections - now I hear they just have a “window” that the liquidity comes gushing out. In the UK, there’s even a media blackout regarding which banks are lapping up which liquidity. Don’t want to start a panic, you know. I’m fine with oil getting harder to get. But Billions of hungry people should not have to outbid investment banks oozing fresh free money, just to feed their families.
re: Galen May…”GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS DAMN IT!
NO OIL, NO MODERN TECHNOLOGY! NO MODERN TECHNOLOGY, NO MODERN SOCIETY!”
I live in a house that uses solar and wind power to create hydrogen gas. I use that hydrogen gas to heat my home, power all of my appliances, cook my meals and fuel my car. I am independent from the energy grid and produce a surplus of electricity (which the hydro-electric company refueses to buy!) that at least I can store in the form of hydrogen in the meantime.
The cost of the wind turbine was peanuts as I made it myself. The solar panels were purchased ‘used’ on Ebay. I converted the car and would have used a PEM fuel cell, but unfortunately they’re not available in the U.S. so I use the less efficient system of burning it in a converted, internal combustion engine car.
The hydrogen economy is NOT a PR fantasy as my own experience proves. However corporate America continues to facilitate the lie that it is nothing more than a pipe dream despite the fact that Japan has invested billions of dollars towards it, Iceland is a hydrogen economy, Germany is following suit and South Korea plans to market 3 kwh hydrogen fuel cell generators (for home electricty) for less than $10,000 a pop some time next year.
I’m not saying it is easy, but it is definitely possible. The biggeset obstacle to energy independence should be obvious though in that a hydrogen economy would result in the death of the utility companies and Big Oil. We could become a society in which each home owner is a surplus producer of energy within five to ten years if the whole country were on the same page. But I admit that I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
Bush saying that we are “addicted to oil” is a bit like a pusher saying that you really should cut back. He was put there to increase profits for oil companies and he did just that. It was no wonder in 2000 that he raised $50 million for his primary campaign with no effort at all. His dad’s friends in the oil business stepped right up and the rest followed. They got their money’s worth and more. It is the rest of us that got the shaft for that bargain.
Alexnosal- And how much OIL was used in process of EXTRACTING AND PROCESSING the MATERIALS used for your solar/wind/hydrogen hybrid home?
Have you worked out how much energy you expend to crack your hydrogen versus how much energy you get in return? And you never state what your SOURCE material is for the hydrogen.
The Platinum you need to run a fuel cell is extracted using OIL POWERED machinery. The Silver needed for your SOLAR CELLS is extracted by using OIL POWERED machinery. And all the platinum in the world would supply ONE years production of fuel cells. Oops.
And your food. Do you grow ALL of it yourself? Do you use any chemical fertilizers or pesticides? If you do, they are made from OIL. If you don’t grow all your own food, it has to travel an average of 1400 miles to reach you, and is planted, harvested, and transported using OIL POWERED MACHINERY. If you eat any meat, it takes 800 calories of oil to produce 100 calories of animal protein. Which then has to me taken to slaughter by oil powered trucks, killed in oil powered factories, with tools made using oil, wrapped in oil based plastic and styrofoam, then sent to market on oil powered trucks.
What abut your clothes? Do you wear any synthetics? They are made of oil byproducts, on oil powered and maintained machines, moved to the consumer by oil powered transportation. even natural fibers are made on oil powered and maintained machines. That is, of course, unless you raise your own sheep or llamas for wool, and hemp, flax or cotton for vegetable fibers. And then spin and weave them yourself into cloth and sew it into clothes by hand.
Is your furniture made completely of wood? if so, then it was harvested by oil powered machinery, or with tools manufactured by oil powered machinery. If it has any synthetic or plastic components, they came from…oil.
All of the materials used to build and insulate and power your home were harvested, extracted and processed by oil powered machinery.
Do you need any medications? Even aspirin? Most modern pharmaceuticals are oil derivatives again, produced and moved by oil powered machinery.
You obviously have a computer (duh). It’s production REQUIRED the expenditure of ten times it’s own weight in oil, and an average of 1000 liters or more of water.
Your converted car was built out of steel made from iron ore extracted by oil powered machinery, was assembled in a plant that used hydrocarbon based energy, ran on oil previous to your converting it to hydrogen, rolls on OIL based synthetic rubber tires on an asphalt (oil byproduct) road. And it still requires OIL based lubricants for maintenance.
How do you store your excess hydrogen? In a pressurized tank? If it is made of steel or plastic, it was manufactured using hydrocarbons and oil. To run the compressor (made with oil based machinery) takes a fair amount of power I would guess. And you have to maintain it, using more oil based lubricants.
And Germany, Japan and Iceland, for all their crowing about their ‘Hydrogen Economies’ have not replaced THEIR ENTIRE OIL BASED INFRASTRUCTURE with the appropriate technology for hydrogen. And what are they using as the source stock to extract hydrogen? Oil? Natural Gas? Water? What? Billions of dollars have been invested in Hydrogen. And even IF they are able to overcome MASSIVE engineering problems of generating and storing the necessary amounts of hydrogen, to become a primary power source will still take another 25-50 YEARS! Time that we don’t have! And those economies STILL need oil for the aforementioned fertilizers, cloths, plastics, pesticides and pharmaceuticals.
Peak Oil will affect more than just making your car go vroom.
PEAK OIL IS THE END OF TECHNOLOGICAL MAN!
I repeat:
NO OIL, NO MODERN TECHNOLOGY! NO MODERN TECHNOLOGY, NO MODERN SOCIETY!
Do you begin to see just how pervasive oil is to our very way of life? How we have built our ENTIRE CIVILIZATION on one vanishing resource? When it goes, it pulls the very foundations of our ENTIRE society out from under us.
A gas tax holiday does nothing to resolve the underlying problems. If anything, it would simply allow us to continue our “who cares” attitude about our unsustainable use of oil throughout the summer.
It’s nothing but a political carrot that Hillary is holding up for the voters in Indiana and North Carolina. Let’s hope those folks are smart enough to figure out that the carrot is fake.
Obama has his head screwed on straight and is opposed to the gas tax holiday even though that idea isn’t popular with the people who can’t think past this summer.
Scientist lights frozen Siberian lake on fire.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025174618.htm
If we could only run our cars on the 500 billion tons of global warming gases now being liberated from our polar regions! Wouldn’t it be nice to put a saber-toothed tiger in your tank!
Well, Galen, wouldn’t it be better slam on the brakes and quit burning oil to power trucks instead of trains, cars instead of light rail and government subsidized air flight? Not to mention the oil used by the military. We waste so much energy that we could cut back enormously and use the remaining oil for essentials as you point out.
“(the tactical basis for the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan)”
I couldn’t let this go. If the above is true, and I’m not saying it is, it’s *strategic*, not tactical.
PEAK OIL IS THE END OF TECHNOLOGICAL MAN!
Hey uninformed : Now that youève drivelled on for a long time let me explain something : Cuba went through their own PEAK OIL in the Special Period 1990-1994 when the Soviet Union pulled and took all their oil and cushy sugar quotas with them . Get a copy of The Power of Community ; How Cubans Survived Peak Oil . I would not describe Cuba as a technolgical giant but neither would I describe plowing fields with oxen and growing vegetables in the smallest of patio flower boxes to eat yourself or sell to your neighbour next door , not 1000 miles away , the end of technological man.
Is 100% country-wide literacy indicative of your end of technological man.É
Same question applies to healthcare , biomedical research , plant genetics, ophthamological clinics , music schools , tourism-marketing… and the only one that most
Americans have ever heard of ,recycling : the uncanny ability of many people , probably women and men , to keep vintage automobiles running .
The purpose for making the docmentary was say to the rest of the world : For you , PEAL OIL is coming ; for us itès past . Hereès what we are doing ; ignore our suggestions at your peril .
PaulK–Putting a “Tiger in your tank” was an Exxon slogan. And there were Tiger Paw tires by Uniroyal.
Galen–Buddy, you need to keep your wits. Peak Oil is a part of Peak Energy, not the other way round. It remains possible to Power Down. Behavior by the masses is beginning to change, which is far more important than whether any of the candidates has a clue. At times it seems as if no one is doing anything of substance, but my involvement with the issue of Peak Oil informs me that in the USA alone several million people are aware and trying to increase that awareness. The recent polls showing folks understanding that gas is going to go to $5 and beyond is an indicator of the behavioral change process. But at least you are brave enough to say we won’t have as much in the future as we had in the past. IMO, that is THE message needing to be broadcast far and wide.
In America it is about the freedom to drive as much as I want and when I want to.
Oil saved will go to the rich, china and India.
We need “equal” gas rationing if the consumption is a problem. If not, we need gov. subsidies just like other countries recieve.
A lot of people drive for a living. Where are the good-paying jobs to replace these jobs?
evelyna May 6th, 2008 8:35 pm ~~ A lot of people drive for a living. Where are the good-paying jobs to replace these jobs? ~~
I’m inclined to say, who cares? Remember the fufurah about buggy-whip manufacturers going out of business when the automobile was on the rise? Or, Most people who drive for a living would love a good-paying job.
The good-paying jobs will be working on the railroad (just like in the song), installing heat pumps, decomissioning coal-burners and erecting windmills and such. Germany, among others, dared to race off down this road and they’re having a merry old time.
If you want to understand oil and oil prices, this article may enlighten you.
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2008/3519crude_game.html
Some of the comments are overblown; especially the loudmouthed rhetoric and parroting of the oil companies’ propaganda, to wit:
Other energy sources won’t work.
That is Exactly what Exxon billionaires want folks to think so millions of bamboozled Americans will drive off to the paymaster every day and turn billions of their pay over to oil barons.
A mass transit system could be built that would yield billions of savings to reduce oil consumption by one third.
The destruct mechanism has been engaged and the countdown is on while Hillary and Barack are slugging it out in the playpen over the gas tax. The answer is yes it can get worse. They may decide to make up and run together.
Thadeusstephens- You obviously didn’t pay attention.
It isn’t -just- the oil and gas used to make the cars go vroom that we are running out of.
It is everything in your home and in your environment that is touched by oil and it’s byproducts. think about it for a moment. What is it made of? How was it made? How did it get to you?
Modern technological society -depends- on one dwindling resource.
The Saudi’s and OPEC admit this. The oil companies admit this. They have known the truth for thirty years or more, and hidden it from the general populace. They are bound by law to make profits for their shareholders, by any means, fair or foul. Lie,cheat, steal, kill, supply weapons to both sides in a civil war. Anything. Just ask the CEO of Royal Dutch Shell.
The oil is running out. Or rather the cheap, easy to extract and refine oil -has- run out. Why do you think the tarsands project in Alberta, Canada is under so much pressure to produce? Domestic oil production in the US peaked in the 70’s. North Sea oil peaked in the 90’s. Russia and Mexico just peaked. All of the major oil fields are at least 50 years old. The Saudi’s have been pumping massive quantities of sea-water into the monster Gahwar field for the last decade to keep production at current levels. But they too are encountering production drop off.
The 150 year boomtime that oil enabled is coming to an end.
And that’s not ‘Exxon propaganda’.
I guess big oil feels it should grease everyone’s palms.
What happened to “jaw boning:” and “arm twisting”? The oil companies don’t have to make huge margins on the crude. Do they double the price? Why can’t the next president use some influence? Carter’s price controls resulted in long lines, but he tried.
For energy we can do almost anything with electricity and hydrogen (from electrolysis of water) that we can with fossil fuels. The problem is without a crash program, it will take decades to make the change to nuclear and renewable power sources.
Bbr-001- What about everything we derive from oil as I have detailed in previous posts? And how do you generate the electricity and extract the hydrogen without involving oil at some point in the process?
I agree with PhoenixDown regarding Derrick Jackson’s naiveté. An analogous situation might be Enron back in the day. You refuse their money (and lobbyists) and they put it all, plus some, toward your opponent in the ensuing election. At this point, honestly, Obama can take money from whoever he pleases if by doing so he keeps it out of Clinton’s hands.
I mean, it DOES bother me that he takes that much from them, but it really isn’t THAT much in the grand scheme of things. I’d guarantee you there’s a street in my town that has given at least that much to McCain this year. Hell, I’d wager there are several such streets here. The fact of the matter is that Obama, youthful and not part of the Washington/Democratic Party establishment, gives me more hope for the future. Clinton will enter her first term and immediately start running for her second, whatever must be done to win. People say that Obama isn’t liberal enough on this, that, or the other, but I believe he will move left if we make our voices heard. I think he’s at least open to change. Clinton won’t be able to hear our voices. The sniper fire is too loud.
Goddammit Galen, would you shut the Hell up already? YES, oil is necessary. No one is arguing otherwise. But I CAN put solar panels on my roof or a wind turbine in my yard, I CAN drive a hybrid or otherwise high mpg vehicle, I CAN use mass transit, I CAN switch to CFLs, I CAN try to eat more local foods and buy more local products, etc. YES oil is necessary, but we CAN take steps to reduce our consumption of it.
The whole point is to develop oil-free ways of doing things that CURRENTLY require oil. Nationalize the oil companies, remove their profits from the equation, keep the current gas tax for road upkeep, and tack on another 10 or 15 cents directed explicitly to the development and implementation of mass transit and alternative fuel sources.
HOLY FUCK PEOPLE
another web story that has turned into BS
GOVERMENT IN america is controled period full stop. end of story. you can post all you want you sheep but until one of you shows some nuts…………….
Huzzah- To quote John Loeffler: “Your failure to be informed does not make me a whacko.”
If oil peaks and goes down, we can just switch to natural gas. The technology to run cars on natural gas is already mature. We will be saved by the economists and Adam Smith’s invisible hand. We have about 150 years worth of oil, 600 years worth of natural gas and 2000 years worth of coal left, at current rates of usage. We also have a couple of hundred years worth of uranium. We will burn these up because that it what the corps who want to sell the fossil fuels to us want us to do, and we are too stupid to do otherwise. So we have a window of a few hundred years to solve the energy problem or we revert to pre-fossil fuel living-in all of it’s beauty. Unless, peak oil causes a total social breakdown before this comes down. I hear they got some FEMA camps ready for us in that case. But it is all good because the megarich will still be flying in their biodiesel fueled Virgin 787s. I will be cutting cane on the plantation.
For the poster comparing Cuba’s experience to the future of a mega consumer of oil (U.S. and Canada, for example) is completely and totally unrealistic. You need to look at per capita oil consumption. Two countries, Canada and the U.S. are voracious oil consumers with about 70% of total oil consumption devoted to transportation (gasoline, diesel, aviation fuel, marine fuels etc.) This is the area where we seperate ourselves from the pack and this is the area that simply must be addressed. These 2 nations are Western industrialised nations however they consume at least double or more oil per capita than do other Western industrialised nations. Comparing oil consumption in Cuba to a “what if” in the States is like comparing night and day. For a real success story check out Denmark. Their success came at a price very few of us over here would be willing to pay.
For the poster who said we have 150 years of oil, 600 years of natural gas and 2000 years of coal left, please back that up. For example current world oil reserves are about 1 trillion barrels. Assuming we can get all of this oil (we can’t), that gives us about 33 years worth at the current burn rate of 30 billion barrels per year. With peak oil discovery occuring in 1964 how did you compute 150 years left? We actually have very little time left to solve real problems.
Oil will continue to be discovered and continue to be consumed. The real problems are the rate of discovery, the attainable amounts at what cost and future production rates of this oil. The “cheap and easy” oil is already in severe decline.
Time to get our hands on the problem.
Yes nationalize the oil companies, impeach
Washington, and throw the greed head oil people into jail. That includes execs, investors, and speculators. This is national security folks and these people are traitors to the national good. We also need to seriously be thinking about birth control.
(Read Overpopulation)
The article at Executive Intelligence Review that was linked is terrible. It assumes things to be true that it should be *demonstrating* to be true, and cites no references. Utter garbage.
jakenewton, agreed -the article is a joke. Imagine, the rebirth of the British Empire, I’m still laughing :).
Like it or not, the age of the big car, truck, suv, etc. is over for the U.S. This will cost the domestic car manufacturers a huge amount of money, but they are going to have to totally re-tool (kind of like WWII, when they stopped making cars and made military vehicles)and make really fuel efficient engines (which they can do)and small cars that can seat four comfortably. They can do that too. Sorry about those people who have large numbers of kids like they don’t know what’s causing it, but this is an epochal change.
alexnosal: Do you host a website describing your hydrogen generation systems? If not, you should.
Meanwhile, some of you might be interested in the new power plant proposed for Tallahassee. It gasifies wood chips.
http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080507/GREEN/805070385/1075
When Common Dreams decides to get serious, they will have a writer interview David Blume and do a review of his revolutionary plan for American independence
It is possible to leave oil behind - you just don’t know the facts yet. That’s okay, I blame your ignorance, not your lack of desire to understand. Once you get in the know, you will see that there are many ways to fix this mess.
If you can’t buy a copy of the plan, you can request it from your local library.
WmC, every little bit helps and this is a “feel good, look at us do the right thing” kind of deal. This plant will produce ONLY 42 megawatts, Florida’s current electrical production capacity is around 53,000 megawatts. Care to guess how many wood chips are required to make any kind of dent in this amount of electricity? Or how many train loads of wood chips required to have any meaningful impact.
I guess anything is better than nothing but this little effort is little more than a PR stunt.
On PBS this morning, industry pundits expect oil prices to hit $150-$200/barrel by the end of the year.
Galen wrote: Why do you think the tarsands project in Alberta, Canada is under so much pressure to produce?
As I understand it, Canada is under ZERO pressure to develop the oil shales, because of the obscene inefficiencies required. It is far more efficient for Canada to use it’s natural gas for energy, rather than wasting it in the extraction of oil from the oil shales. But where there are inefficiencies, there is money.
The end of technological society and the oil fueled industrial boom is not necessarily the end of the world for us, and not necessarily a return to pre-industrial squalor. If we survive to do the next thing, it will be something entirely new. We’ll do what we can with what we have to work with. People got around pretty good before oil wells. They fielded armies (so we won’t have to give up mankind’s favorite pastime), they traveled by mule and hauled stuff around in wagons pulled by oxen, they built houses and cities with stone paved streets. They wrote books and played violins and dressed up in fancy clothes. Mother Nature will see to it that our population is optimal for the amount of food we are able to produce. We should be able to keep our bicycles for awhile. I wouldn’t mind it if there were no more of us than porcupines or ferrets or any other species, and I wouldn’t miss freeways or urban blight or television one bit. The next sustainable status quo for us might be quite pleasant. The transition from here to there, I think, could involve some stress and is the thing that has us worried.
galen
By the time this zit pops you’ll be dead.
so what?
Who are you and by what authority/expertise do you call us “anti-oil-people” thick-headed? From your posts I gather you are not a scientist, but a wannabe know-it-all.
First of all, so what if the era of wasteful mass consumerism is coming to an eventual end. It might be good for humanity to lose all the unnecessary crap we have right now. Riding a bicycle to work would be a healthy improvement over a gas-guzzling hummer, even though it won’t get you a date with the bimbos.
For future generations’ sake we are working on combinations of alternative energies/technologies/policies that will make your precious fossil fuels obsolete: solar collectors that can concentrate sunlight enough to boil water and hence run a generator, high efficiency stds for all homes and cars, solar cells in roofing materials, wind and hydro power, geothermal (that does not depend on hot spots),fuel cell/solar/biodeisel hybrids, LEDs, recycling laws,and by then they will have the bugs out and the efficiency improved.
Use your imagination galen.
Actually, galen, I apologize. I just read my post and it was too harsh. I’ll be dead then too, just so you don’t take it personally.
It is upsetting, however to hear your doom about wonderful irreplaceable oil.
Oil is very convenient but it will run out. DO you believe people are so uncreative that we will accept living primitively? New technologies will emerge and efficiencies will improve. Don’t panic and please don’t insult people about a future neither of us can know much about.
If a river runs downhill for several hundreds of feet, why must we settle for one hydropower plant? Suriname has an electricity surplus because of hydropower.
I do happen to know a scientist who thinks exactly as you do, but he gets invited by the oil/coal people to conferences so I don’t trust him. He won’t even listen to alternatives. He claims there is enough stuff to burn on earth for 500 years (frozen methane, oil. gas, coal). Trouble is, a lot of it is buried and difficult to retrieve, as you said without burning fuels.
Life on earth does pretty well with solar energy. Look at the rainforests.
Fuel cells mimic photosythesis better than the other sources of power. I say we improve fuel cell efficiency until we become sustainable.
Andrew- What you refer to as ‘living primitively’ is actually ‘living within our means’. humans lived for thousands of years without oil or it’s byproducts. Our society is a statistical anomaly, fueled by oil. Once the oil is gone, so is our massive, and wasteful, production capacity that supports our society.
If you want a good look at what the future will be, visit the Amish.
One of the best uses for fossil fuels is to help us develop renewable energy sources. That is a smarter and more leveraged way to proceed. We like to think that we are so clever and will always figure things out, but recent events on the oil markets say otherwise.
Let’s get as much renewable energy today by using the energy left to us yesterday. If we do not we will be in a bind that we may never get out of. With renewable, as long as the sun shines and the wind blows we will have plenty, unlike that stuff in the ground that we keep digging up.
Although I am concerned about contributions from Industries I really do not think it is fair or accurate to assume that just because somebody works for an Oil Company, Bank, Telecom giant or whatever that their contributions represent that industry.
When I worked for a major bank which I assumed would be staid Republican conservatives, the majority of workers,
even first and second level management were disgusted with Bush, Republicans, outsourcing, offshoring and their own very top management. They were very upset because they took the brunt of layoffs from mergers, consolidations, outsourcing and offshoring while basically seeing stagnant wages like the rest of the middle class.
It should be no surprise that those people would be among the hundreds of thousands who have been small online contributors to the Obama campaign.
The Amish around here use a kind of “white gas” kerosine that doesn’t barr them from tax exemption status. They have power washing macjines and dryers and more.
Still, fossil fuels are over-rated. We will find a way to make hybrids, probably fuel cells “kick-started” by solar/wind/biodeisel.
The physics of photosythesis is astounding. A photon (all energy-no mass) knocks loose an electron in chlorophyll(energy and mass) that eventually gets converted into stable chemical energy (food). Why can’t we copy this on a larger scale? Fuel cells need a little energy to get started and are expensive to build at this time in history, but they produce a lot of energy that is safe and clean and not even noisy.
Hydro and wind power are free once
you set up the turbines.
We may be able to make algae or bacteria that produce huge quantities of oil too in ditches. There are more potential solutions than I have time to post here without us becoming Amish.
having said this much, it would be nice to be Amish as long as you could get the tax exemption. I know a guy who bought a farm with the intention of self-sufficiency. He said, “By the time you farm enough to pay your taxes, you are beyond a work-a-holic. Farming out a life is a hard, mean existence.”
I lived in a Third World agriculture-based society for four years. They don’t pay any taxes and the land is free to farm. If it is not in a city and nobody is currently farming it (100 acres if you will), then its yours to farm. It didn’t look like a bad life to me (besides the poverty and troipical diseases w/o modern medical equipment).
WHEW! A long and interesting debate, here. Of all the posters, I think Galen has it most nearly right. Alternative technologies can help but, as he points out, all the raw materials to produce these “solutions” are available only because of cheap, readily available oil.
Oil is, indeed, the lifeblood of modern civilizaton. No solution, or combination thereof, is going to stop the hemorraging we’re now experiencing. The lifestyles we’ve chosen, the expectations and demands we cling to, are the real culprits…especially in the US, where 5% of the world’s population thinks it’s entitled to consume 25% (or more) of the world’s resources. To think any significant number of these people are willing, or able, to modify their behavior enough to make a difference is delusional.
Sooner than we expect, oil is going to be too scarce and expensive to allow a continuation of daily life as we know it. Our minds just can’t envision what life would be like…too frightening…so we continue to ignore reality and plunge onward in denial. The recent “oil shocks” ought to be enought to open the collective eye to the future. To think escalating oil prices are a temporary phenomenon is, also, delusional.
Cheap and plentiful oil has been a part of life for everyone alive today, so we can’t imagine it being otherwise. Well, it can be otherwise…it is moreso every day…and the world described by James Kunstler in “THE LONG EMERGENCY” (www.kunstler.com) isn’t fantasy or an illusion. Nor is the world described in his novel “WORLD MADE BY HAND”, although I think he paints too rosy a picture.
Life as we know it isn’t sustainable by any sort or combination of “technologies” and it’s becasuse of the lifestyles we’ve chosen (actually, we really haven’t chosen much..it’s all been sold to us and we’re all…myself included…sheep of one breed or another who’ve blindly followed the flock). Returning to a pre-industrial life is probably the ultimate answer, but is possible for only a very, very few.
What we call “primitive” cultures probably won’t miss the oil age much. As for the rest of the passengers on this finite earth, the joy ride is about to come to a screeching halt. The crash will be clamitous for the most oil-dependent (think city and suburbia), and harsh for those less closely tied to oil.
If you’re in doubt or denial, read Kunstler.
Galen: your post has drawn many responses. Thanks for holding the focus on the fundamnetal problem(s).
Emaho- You’re welcome.
The people of the USA have been so ill informed as to what a change would really do and mean to this country and the change in leadership that is necessary, they have forgotten that no one could be worse than George Bush . . . No one, not even a dogcatcher, at least the dog catcher has compassion for
Animals!
The future leaders, Obama or McCain, should discuss the problems America and the world faces. The problem of public ignorance of the issues caused by the media is serious. In the heat of elections the media panders to voter ignorance. The emphasis, as we see on nightly, so-called news, is constant repetition of candidate’s miscues. The result of the media sensationalism becomes, the wrong problem and the wrong message at a crucial time in world history. The emphasis on having the politicians address a credible platform of ideas based on an American and global interaction in the world is critical.
There is not enough time left for civilization to focus on rubbish. The energy and environmental issues for example or food and health care are the problems the media should be focusing upon. But to use the Rev, Wright issue for one week, to try and hurt the candidacy of Obama is a travesty. The issues most pressing are once again avoided, those really important issues that must be put before the congress; the environment, continued funding of Iraq, energy issues, education, health care and so many others not dealt with, all impacting upon the economy, the failure of public dialog is outrageous!
The issue of this election will impact on the environment, economy and the future of the USA as no others. Still, if more than 50% of eligible voters cast their votes it will be a miracle, as a result of regressive US election laws and media obfuscation. It is compulsory for everyone to vote in Australia it should be so in the USA as well. Few of the candidates are really talking about the major points, even those who are the most erudite. The environment in association with the economy or health care and elections reform, to name some, are kept out of public dialog as a result of the nonsense punditry hours on end. The world looks at America and its “star struck reality” in wonder.
The political discussion rests on the complete lack of talking points in isolation, such as, Clinton’s health package or the nonsense gasoline tax rebate and it’s cost, rather than what is really at stake with energy issues, human survival. The candidates for the US presidency rarely talk about the complete interrelated package of the issues combined. Obama alludes to this deficiency in the media and public issues. When he asks for this to occur it lands on deaf ears because the media and special interests do not want this to occur.
The media reduces the public debate to its most simplistic level with pundits arguing about one inconsequential issue or another rather than the truly important issues of our time. The American people are kept from hearing and understanding the relationship of the entire package of issues, which a true leader must address and deal with for the very survival of America in the world within a global economy. The costs for the war would pay for every single need from health care to American infrastructure repair and education, as well as the alleviation of world hunger and energy research this is what is what is at stake.
The media deals with Rev. Wright and American Flag lapel pins instead.
The media keeps the public dumbed down for obvious reasons they represent the moneyed people. As a result the public becomes unable to talk about moving radically toward change and the related issues affecting their very life and the future. The issues of climate change, energy issues and the global economy not only American economy is the part of the mortgage crisis created by the “free market” system. All the other issues like people losing their homes as a result of Wall Street manipulation are tied to these fundamental problems. These is the first and major issue which affects all other issues and is completely related to the economic changes which must take place.
The media board rooms instruct their so-called journalists (news/opinion readers) to stay clear of those subjects that would attack advertising, consumption, tied together in the media collusion with special interests to maintain the consumer system killing the world. Media in collusion with government does not want the change that would result in the decline of their hundreds of millions of dollars in profits.
All environmental problems are in one way or another associated with the Western world’s consumption based lifestyle led by the USA. These issues are affected by consumer advertising much of it coming from the millions spent on advertising of irrelevant product and campaign advertising. The media should be dealing with true American and global issues in this campaign affecting the very basis of the so-called American Dream, fast becoming the global nightmare. This is what the next president of the USA must address!
“Take their money, drink their whiskey, sleep with their women and vote against them anyway.”
LBJ