Just wait. It won't be long until we all get our scannable microchip implants with GPS tracking. At first it will be required by law that all newborns receive these at birth before being issued a birth certificate. Then it will take off from there.

So it took a little longer than expected to reach "1984". But we finally got there.

Disgusting.

Quote: "the court left open the door for voting-rights groups to bring lawsuits to prove that photo-ID rules are turning away voters."

Of course, this is after John McCain is elected, right?

Is there anybody out there that still believes we can diminish the power of corporate elites through corporate-elite funded elections?

Only by running for the small offices and building our way UP the ladder of power, slowly. But we have to DO IT, not just talk about it!

At the risk of appearing to be contrarian, I honestly don't understand why people, even poor people, would have serious problems in obtaining the required identification. I guess I suffer from having "a middle-class point of view" like the justices, but this post is in a way an invitation to anybody who knows better to educate me.

Of course I know that this is a Republican ploy to further suppress the vote among the poor. But even with that awareness, I cannot (honestly) find a convincing argument of why obtaining the required documentation constitutes an undue burden on people. Again, please somebody educate me.

Notice that this wasn't done when the Republicans had a majority...

Many people think that to advance to the national level in the Republican Party you have to sell your soul to the special interests but at the local level republicans have the best interest of the community at heart, but the Indiana Voter ID law is an excellent example that even at the local level republicans have no respect for the fundamental principles of democracy and the rule of law.

During Watergate many republicans had the integrity to speak out against the abuses of Nixon but today I can't think of a single example of a republican at the national level that has condemned the illegal acts of the Bush administration, torture, wars of aggression, illegal wire taps, politicizing the Department of Justice, shooting Harry Whittington in the face with a shotgun are all completely fine and dandy with today's utterly corrupt republican party.

Unfortunately the Democratic Party isn't much better; those who oppose the abuses of the Bush administration are a small minority in the party.

"Just wait. It won't be long until we all get our scannable microchip implants with GPS tracking."

Sorry, dmia, we've already got it for the most part. Its called a cell phone. And its likely every member of your family has one.

Its a done deal and WE got to pay for it! You have to give 'em credit, that was one brilliant strategy between telcom and the feds! Along with your email, they know everything--all the time.

"Unfortunately the Democratic Party isn't much better; those who oppose the abuses of the Bush administration are a small minority in the party."

Tell me about it.

In Maine, the Democratic governor threw his weight behind the Real ID act (Maine was one of the few states to originally reject it) and the legislature (led by Democrats) voted to pass it.

I really don't want McCain to win, but damn, those Democrats are making it harder and harder to vote for them. I switched my position from voting for Cynthia McKinney to Obama, but those Dems make me feel like a fool every day. Nothing new.

cicero,

The Indiana Voter ID law made presenting a valid voter registration card, issued by the county clerk, unacceptable to use as an ID to vote. Secondly, why does an ID have to have an expiration date to be valid? Voting rights don't expire. To obtain an ID you must present an original Birth Certificate with the seal or stamp of the issuer, not a copy of a birth certificate that is easily obtainable. Finally since you can now order license Plates online or through the mail Indiana has closed most of the neighborhood license branches, I'd have to drive over 40 miles, round trip, to get an ID.

The Indiana law is designed to exclude inner city voters that have access to public transportation and don't own automobiles, if there was a truth in labeling law on legislation the law would have been named the Don't Let Ni&&ers Vote Act.

Between this and the already-in-the-pipe legislation to FORCE all foreign nationals to provide DNA samples as they leave the country on aircraft, what more proof do you need to realize that the US is now a fascist dictatorship?

sooooo......get an ID and you get to vote. all the ID says is that you are who you claim to be. disenfrancised? my ass. we have the richest looking poor people in the united states - Ive been everywhere from the ghetto section 8neigborhoods to the backwoods of FL - Air Jordans, Nike sneakers, nice cars - and the poor cannot afford to make the effort to get an ID?

Please.

AngstOfThePeople May 5th, 2008 1:54 pm ..If you had the SLIGHTEST idea about the reality of poverty, you would never make the statement you just made. In the true spirit of compassion, may YOU never be poor!

Willy -

Um I was poor. Broke, even. I still maintained an ID. No ID no vote. its that simple.

The comments I just read display a level of ignorance that is astounding. One person said "should a copy of a voter registration card invalid" and "that there is no experiation date on voting". Hey Moron...if you don't vote within a certain time period you need to re-register to vote. Obviously you haven't voted and aren't from Indiana.

Where in Indiana is there decent public transportation? The issue with a photo ID is irrelavent as Indian has had this law in effect for 7 elections and of which is popular among the states population. Also let's look at what laws on the books require photo id: Drivers liscense, to purchase beer, get credit cards, if you're really poor and on Medicaid or welfare you need a state photo id, if your getting a job a state id is the min. required. I haven't even touched the SS# that is required for everything under the sun. Yet this is an issue?? Hardly.

When voting only 1 vote should count...that is determined through some form of identification of registered voters. By making it simply a photo id it eliminatd potential error and abuse. The only reason to oppose the state of Indiana's law (isn't the Dems in majority there anyway) is because abuse and errors were occuring but it was benefitting the Dems for some reason.

If the photo ID set's you off why do we even need to register to vote in the first place???

Thanks Madhoosier, that was useful.

cicero, it costs $34 for a certified Indiana birth certificate, assuming a voter even has one. Not all do. Amounts to a severe poll tax for the poor. Not including the difficulty of traveling to the county seat if you don't have a car and public transportation is limited. But hey, they can walk, dragging their kids with them. Of course, if they have some scudsy low paying job, they may lose it for taking time off for trying to meet the requirements to vote, since records offices are only open during business hours. The Supremes of course, don't have to worry about those kinds of problems. If you haven't lived in poverty, cicero, don't make assumptions about how easy they have it.

AngstOfThePeople, not all ghetto neighborhood residents are drug dealers and some are truly poor. I didn't see Nikes on the New Orleans residents who couldn't afford to escape the flood. It's really ignorant to make generalizations based on stereotypes. You must be a Ronald Reaganite, swallowing the "Welfare Queen" fantasy. I was on welfare at one point, and the people I saw in the waiting room were nothing like that. In fact, it felt pathetic. The hopelessness and despair was tangible. It was a lousy system but in some ways now it's even worse, since the number of kids in deep poverty has increased after Bill Clinton's "welfare reform". The system needed a solution, but not that one. It was a typical DLC ploy, of which Hillary has many more up her sleeve.

kathyodat

BeFor Kids

I do not apologize as I saw it with my own 2 eyes. that being said, what is so damned hard about having an ID? Nothing.

The right to vote is about the most sacred of all rights - all i want to see is that its respected and treated as such - we are not demanding too much in demanding to know that the person in the ballot is actually ALLOWED to be there in the first place.

AngstOfThePeople there's a huge difference between growing up in poverty and being broke. It's called temporary vs permanent. Comes with two different mindsets instilled into a child who has no control over what they're being taught about how far they can go in life, with teachers and other adults reinforcing the lesson.

The ignorance of people prejudiced against the poor is tiresome and destructive to the health of our society. We're beginning to look more and more like Dickens' England.

kathyodat

no, theres a mindset among the poor and liberals such as yourself that the poor cannot be criticized - the closest thing you people have to a cannonization process. you can get out of poverty - you have to WANT to get out of poverty.

at any rate, this is about ID and voting. poor people can get an ID. end of story.

AngstOfThePeople, even the Supreme Court justices agreed there was no evidence of voter fraud. But, they wanted to err on the side of caution, being that they could not see any evidence of "undue" harm in their ruling. Even opponents of the ID law agreed that their case was poorly presented. Thank goodness for Stevens writing the opinion, leaving the door open.

The much more serious issue is voter suppression, which as been well documented, including 3.6 uncounted ballots in the 2004 election. Just how many of those do you think were Republican?

kathyodat

For those who think it's no big deal to get photo ID for purposes of exercising your right to vote, please see this Robert Greenwald video: http://aclu.tv/ about the right to vote. As one small example: there are elderly blacks in the South who have voted for decades but may now lose their right to vote because they don't drive and have no birth certificates: they were born at a time when certain Southern governments didn't issue birth certificates for black people. This is only one small example. The video gives explicit details--and introduces you to a number of poor usually elderly folks--who don't drive and don't have the easy ability to get the documentation they'd need to be able to vote under these laws. It's a sad modern example of the poll tax for those who don't drive and don't have the money necessary or the transporation necessary to get the documents now required.

there are elderly blacks in the South who have voted for decades but may now lose their right to vote because they don't drive and have no birth certificates

- then devise a remedy, this is no reason to not have IDs at the polls.

kathy

if you really beleive the election was stolen in 04 ( I dont by the way) then you should be all for demanding a tighter and more secure process. you say on one hand there was no fraud, then you say there was.....which is it?

AngstOfThePeople, bullshit. I never said the poor cannot be criticized. But I do say we have an economic system that benefits from a poor class and maintains a policy to sustain it. 13 million children live in families below the poverty line ($20,000 for a family of four), and includes half of all children living in Louisiana.

Worst of all, The number of children living in deep poverty, defined as less than 1/2 half the poverty line, has skyrocketed especially with Bush administration policies. Eradicating poverty takes more than true grit. It means adequate nutrition, education, social support, such as not not restricting health access for children. Ignoring the needs of the poor does not resolve poverty. There will always be exceptional individuals who can fight their way out. If you had been born in that situation you might have been one of them, although with your narrow minded viewpoint, I suspect that is unlikely. You are quick to judge another without having walked in their shoes. I have lived among the poor, I know the pressures they face.

kathyodat

Ansgt_ So were you overjoyed when the SUPREME COURT DECIDED that Bush was the winner in 2000?

You must have been beside yourself with exultation over the PROVEN acts of vote tampering by Diebold in Ohio in 2004.

A VOTE IN THE US HAS NO(!) MEANING!

MILLIONS OF LEGITIMATE, ELIGIBLE VOTERS WERE DISENFRANCHISED IN FLORIDA IN 2000! MILLIONS MORE HAD THE SAME THING HAPPEN IN 2004!

The US is a fascist dictatorship, run by a shadowy cabal of corporations, intelligence services and the obscenely wealthy.

If you deny this you are either a fool or a tool.

and I was among the poor kathy. I still dont see why they cannot get a form of valid ID.

galen, if youre so convinced that the vote has been stolen, why are you even arguing over IDs? better yet, why arent you doing something about it other than whining among a bunch of aging hippies on a neocommunist website?

AngstOfThePeople, I agree, we need a tighter process. But it includes not hassling voters with too few voting machines and holding up the lines for hours with "challenges", refusing to count provisional ballots, touch screen machines with secret tabulating methods (proprietary information) that consistently err on the side of Republicans, jamming phone lines in Democratic precincts so voter registration can't be confirmed, threatening letters to Democrats that unpaid parking tickets will get them arrested at the polls, and many more documented tricks. When a court case proved voter fraud in Ohio, the counties were ordered to preserve the ballots for a recount so they destroyed the ballots. Their excuses? They got rained on, we ran out of storage space, we forgot we were told to save them, and on and on. The result? Nothing. The ballots are gone, no more case. This is democracy? Considerable effort has been spent on trying to find voter fraud, turning up about 12 cases nationwide. Voter suppression is extensive and documented in the millions. So which should we be going after?

kathyodat

Oh, so now we're neocommunists? What's a neocommunist? People, I think we're wasting our time talking to this angst person.

I'm not any kind of communist. I think we should be a country of small businesses and take our country back from the big corporations that have run off with it, including our hard earned money. I want our wages invested in our country, not their wallets. Does that make me a communist?

kathyodat

I agree. address voter supression and fraud on both sides. I dont see how a cheap piece of plastic verifying you are who you say you are is necessarily a real challenge to potential voters. if anything, this would enable one means of combatting voter fraud - add in the element of a paper trail/reciept issued to all who cast a ballot (providingf they have id) and you have yet another built in layer of protection.

the second you speak of (and I mean the general you of the board commentators) wealth redistribution then yes, you are a neocommunist.

"there are elderly blacks in the South who have voted for decades but may now lose their right to vote because they don't drive and have no birth certificates

- then devise a remedy, this is no reason to not have IDs at the polls."

Anyone interested in actual facts, please know that there is not one example of a complaint of voter-impersonation in recent elections, according to the Secretaries of State interviewed in the Freedom Files video. There are throusands (if not more) of actual people who will lose their right to vote because of these laws.

Also, remember these ID laws do not apply to the voter registration process; these laws apply to registered voters who have voted for decades. If you lack particular document X, it doesn't matter how many decades you've voted at precinct Y, you can't vote when you show up to the polls if you can't produce the magic document.

You can bet that now the state legislatures around the country will be rushing to pass similar laws to block access to the polls for the poor elderly, between now and November. We have a long history of erecting obstacles to voting, particulary by the poor. That tradition was given a brand new lease on life with the recent Supreme Court case.

dlp - what is so damned hard about getting an ID? we insist on one before we board planes. we insist on one to cash a check. we insist on one (ok well I do) before we allow people to rent or own property....this is a non issue.

The Indiana decision reminds me of the grandfather clauses enacted by post-confederate states in early Reconstruction. The obstacles to obtaining a picture ID are largely determined by your birth in several ways. The most obvious is economic - the greater the wealth of your parents the more likely the relative cost to obtain an ID will be small. This is especially significant since the voting age is 18 - if your parents are too poor to feed and house you at age 17, as an 18 year old you will almost certainly have a greater burden obtaining an ID than were you of wealthier birth. The franchise is (or should be) a privilege of citizenship not a prize of wealth.

And to the IdiotOfAngst in our ranks, if you cannot see this reality, then your eyeball-rolling has left you staring at the dark void within your cranium.

Now choo, there's really no reason for personal attacks. your rationale behind not having ID is rather weak - so what you're saying is that poor people in this country are so poor they cannot afford a 15 dollar piece of plastic that will not only enable them to vote, but to board planes, trains in some places and obtain a rental agreement?

sorry friend, this argument does not hold water and in fact makes you guilty of using the poor for your own political agenda. if you take the vote as seriously as you say you do, you will realize this is a birthright that must be protected.

I was wrong about the republicans holding their noses and accepting McCain. Read somewhere the idea of giving the presidency to Obama, but having a huge nationwide push to get their people in the senate so they can block any liberal nominations to the supreme court.

Having moved from Indiana to Oregon, I must say that voting has never been easier. No ID necessary, no waiting in line, no touch screen machines. We get sent our ballot in the mail, fill in the bubbles, and then we return it either by mail or a drop box when it is convenient. We can get together, vote with friends, discuss the candidates and issues and help each other understand some of the strangely worded propositions. I think we do have voter fraud with registrations, but I haven't heard of people messing with the mail.

I am sorry to hear so many Hoosiers will be disenfranchised and I wish there wasn't such a pattern in the oppression of poor, elderly and/or especially non-white voters. I wish Americans would be outraged by this. I wish cooperations were not people too. At this point a vote seems like a wish thrown with a penny in to a bottomless well. Gotta keep wishing though, just in case there is a bottom and every little bit counts...

Angstofthe Who?,

You say "if you really believe the election was stolen in 04 ( I dont by the way) then you should be all for demanding a tighter and more secure process. you say on one hand there was no fraud, then you say there was…..which is it?"

The voting machine companies that can fix the counts don't need photo voter ID's.
Voter suppression tactics and lists don't require Photo ID's of the drafters and beneficiaries of these laws.

How many convictions of people voting without registering or with Phony ID's?

If this is a problem than there should be documented proof of a wide spread problem.

There have been thousands of cases of folks robbed of the right to vote because they were on a phony list of felons and these republican controlled lists rob the right to vote to people with real ID's already.

Does your definition of wealth redistribution include the the loss of the money of the majority citizens sucked up by the MIC?

Does that include the loss of the value of the dollar from the growing, un-payable national Debt for the benefit of the super wealthy robbing the people in the War economy?

Just from the way you generalize I would take any red baiting from the likes of you a badge of honor.

If any mind set causes angst of the people it is yours.

With the billions and billions of dollars this insane administration keeps throwing at the war....you'd think they could muster up a little $ to have a "roving id wagon" that travels to the poorer neighborhoods and get them the proper identification so they can help get these monkeys off the hill.
I am fit and middle class and the thought of getting out to a DMV office and waiting in line for hours on a saturday is so exhausting....I'd just stay home too. A very carefully planned block to help push this election in the same direction as the last 2 !

simply put then Jim - do you or do you NOT think there is fraud in the election process? if you think there is, then logic, if you have any, would suggest stringent controls are needed - including IDs at the polls - nobody should be allowed NEAR the booth without one.

how else do you suppose we ought to do this - have people show up and say they are so and so and just let them pass? Sorry. Voter ID is going to become a reality - stop using the poor to afvance your agenda. its disgusting.

We have been experiencing a massive redistribution of national wealth - toward the top 1% of Americans. And a massive loss of income to the middle class. This country has become a welfare state for the rich who are nowhere near paying even their fair share of taxes and who have obscene levels of income compared to hourly workers. The US Gini index is going off the chart, and any effort to reverse that unhealthy direction is communism? I suggest people start ignoring Angstwhatever who is siding with the elite, ripping off the American people and their labor.

I noticed Angst ignored all the disenfranchisement occurring before whoever is left even make it to the polls.

kathyodat

So who are the people who don't have state-issued photo IDs? I'd like to see some examples so I could better understand who this will affect. I am a 44 year old white male in liberal New England town. My Cal. driver's license is expired and I cannot afford to pay all my parking tickets and old excise taxes to get a Mass. driver's license yet. A Mass. state-id would cost me $25. My passport is long expired. I can pretty easily get the Mass ID but I haven't bothered. And I can't get a passport without the ID etc. Spending the $25 would get me the state ID and would the make me eligible to vote if my state had this new requirement. But if I had been arrested for selling drugs at some point, or was distrustful of officials for some reason, I would probably skip the vote. Or maybe it's already going to cost a day off from work to vote and it would take a day or part of a day to go get in line at the DMV, so if I were not of the somewhat privileged class, again, I wouldn't bother. Maybe I'm hiding out from child-care payments and don't want to stick my head above water. But does this dead-beat dad status mean I should be allowed to vote?

Angst,
No, "Simply put", you have not answered any of the real fraud at the pols which I asked you about.

There is proven fraud that you ignore Because it is done by the Power elite and there is the imagined fraud done by some theoretical idea of people voting who are not registered and that has not yet been proven.

You don't come up with any evidence of voter ID fraud yet you want to make it harder for some folks who can't get a birth certificate for whatever reason left out, that is real fraud when the rich repubs can rob the voters already and that has been proven.

What you have proved is that you are an old fashioned red baiter that does not like this site.

You have avoided any real fraud by republican officials under the pretext for a problem that does not exist.

Now that is real angst.

In an effort to help people understand the difficulty of getting a photo ID for some people, I will tell my story (and the story of many of my clients.) I am disabled with epilepsy. I often work with disabled people. The task of GETTING to the facility to get a photo ID is so difficult when you do not drive, that it prevents many non-drivers from doing so.

In my area there are no sidewalks on the route to the photo ID location. So I must litterally take my life in my hands to walk there. Public transportation is a two hour trip each way, making this task almost a full day's job to do. And think of other disabilities ... have you ever ridden on a bus with a wheelchair?

It is indeed very difficult for non-drivers or disabled people to get photo IDs. I have been trying for years, and I have not made the full trip yet.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen who cannot see the light at the end of our poverty. Yes, we will get those temporary IDs. But let's just see if they don't come up with some other bullshit that we'll need to cast a vote. Meanwhile, the same people who are requiring a photo ID for the most fundamental of human rights in a democracy (???) are the ones who want that requirement eliminated for buying and owning guns (far too restrictive for our domestic violence enforcers!). Oh, by the way, who has the most trouble, at least in New Jersey, getting a photo ID? Married women, of course, especially those who left and divorced those domestic abusers. "I'm dreaming of a free democracy ..." Are you with me? At least so far, we don't have to have a photo ID to gather for a "redress of grievances." That's next, I'm sure.

AngstOfThePeople May 5th, 2008 2:10 pm

"Um I was poor. Broke, even. I still maintained an ID. No ID no vote. its that simple."

Jahvol meine führer! It's that simple.

Lairderg May 5th, 2008 5:52 pm ..Apologies for this bit of the topic remark. My friend, forget about gathering for a redress of grievances..SCOTUS has so far refused to even address the topic..they will not even schedule a hearing to "debate" a supposed basic Constitutional right.

KELLYBLISS

i sympathize with you and your clients. i too have to walk a very treacherous path to my local stores and i'm not disabled. but i understand the problem riding a bus with a wheelchair.

ANGSTOFTHEPEOPLE

i've been reading your posts on different threads here and as far as i can see, you have nothing in common with the 'commondreamers'. after all, that is the purpose of this website............for like-minded people to discuss their theories and thoughts. and to help each other in overcoming grievances. you are not contributing to this genre, so why don't you find a site that agrees with YOUR thoughts, instead of distrupting ours.

It's not entirely useless to see how right wing wackos process information and defend their viewpoints, but for Neanderthals like angstoftherich, once we've had that look, the next step is to ignore them until they go away. And they do. Like children and pets, they like attention. Without it, they find somewhere else to get it.

At this point, the discussion has devolved into a back and forth with angst which obviously is going nowhere. And from the perspective of angst, it isn't intended to. Sometimes people show up with ignorant ideas, but they respond with thoughtfulness to discussion. Not happening in this case. Time to pull the plug.

kathyodat