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Bush Admits He Approved Torture
The American people have heard President Bush and his spokespeople say many times that the U.S. government does not engage in torture.
Whether Bush was believed or not is another story -- especially in light of the photographic evidence of the abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib. It's understood that many of the photos are too sadistically graphic to be made public.
Still, the official U.S. denials of torture continued until earlier this month when Bush acknowledged in an interview with ABC-TV that he knew about and approved "enhanced interrogation" of detainees, including "waterboarding" or simulated drowning.
"As a matter of fact," Bush added, "I told the country we did that. And I told them it was legal. We had legal opinions that enabled us to do it."
The president added, "I didn't have any problems at all trying to find out what Khalid Sheik Mohammed knew."
"He was the person who ordered the suicide attack -- I mean, the 9/11 attacks," Bush said. "And back then, there was all kind of concern about people saying, 'Well, the administration is not connecting the dots.' You might remember those -- that period." Bush said.
Bush also said in the interview that he had been aware of several meetings his national security advisers held to discuss "enhanced interrogation" methods.
Surely he is aware of the U.S. commitment to international treaties barring "cruel and inhumane" treatment of prisoners.
What is startling is that he feels no remorse about the cruel image he has created for us -- and the damage done to our credibility and probity.
In referring to the legality of torture, Bush apparently was thinking of a 2002-2003 memo by John Yoo, a Justice Department official who argued military interrogators could subject detainees to harsh treatment as long as it didn't cause "death, organ failure or permanent damage." The memo was rescinded.
Bush, who has insisted "we do not torture," also recently vetoed legislation that explicitly banned torture. Sen. John McCain, whose whole political persona has been defined by the fact that he had been tortured while a prisoner of war during the Vietnam era, supported Bush's veto.
For both Bush and McCain, I recall the words of Joseph Welch, the special counselor for the Army during the 1954 Army-McCarthy hearings when Welch asked Sen. Joseph McCarthy, R-Wis.: "Sir, have you no sense of decency?"
We expected the usual cast of characters including Vice President Dick Cheney to be in on the sinister torture-planning sessions.
But it came as a shock that Gen. Colin Powell, then secretary of state, sat in on the meetings and went along with the planning. Powell had been on record warning against U.S. torture policies on the basis that if we mistreat our prisoners, foreign countries will feel no qualms about abusing American captives in wartime.
Once revered for his integrity, Powell has lost his halo.
Now we have this week's testimony of Air Force Col. Morris Davis, a former chief prosecutor, who took the witness stand at Guantanamo Bay on behalf of a prisoner. Davis told how top Pentagon officials had pressured him on sensitive prosecutorial decisions for political reasons. He said he was told that the charges against well-known detainees "could have real strategic value" and that there could be no acquittals.
Davis also testified Brig. Gen. Thomas Hartmann reversed a decision he made and insisted prosecutors proceed with evidence they obtained through waterboarding and other methods of torture.
Davis also testified he was told to speed up the cases to give the system legitimacy before a new president takes over in January.
Is Congress so cowed that it accepts the statements of a president who has little regard for the truth?
Is there no lawmaker who is appalled about the tarnishing of our image in world opinion? And where are the voices of the other presidential candidates who will inherit the Bush legacy of torture? Why the silence?
I count on the American people to refuse to be shamed any more.
88 Comments so far
Show AllWhy no impeachment proceedings? Why are all these lies and abuses against the founding principals of our country just be tolerated? Does it really come down to the leadership of the Democracts in Congress? If it's Pelosi and Reed saying business as usual I think we should begin calling faxing and letting them know what we demand.
As a public servant (for a city planning department) I had to take an oath to "defend" the U.S. and California constitutions "against all enemies, foreign and domestic."
Now I have a dilemma; I truely believe that the current occupant of the White House has and is destroying the U.S. Constitution (intentionally; whether for security, oil or whatever) and therefore he - and several members of his group who have condoned torture, etc - are "domestic…enemies."
So, how do I "defend" the U.S. Constitution?
Furthermore, as a decendent of one of the first signers of the Declaration of Independence, and the son of a man who was hit with a hand-granade on Iwo Jima in WWII - I feel very strongly about this oath!
This may sound silly, but I would like to state here and now for the record - that I hereby place George W. Bush, and all members of the so-called "principals group" who condoned torture under "citizen's arrest."
Any law enforcement officials and/or lawyers who would like to assist in the arrest and prosecution of these "domestic...enemies" (and thereby live up to their oath)please report for duty below.
Impeach, indict, imprison.
Deficits of heroism, decency, and accountability scream out! Apart from that, the very fact that the vast majority of persons "on board" for cruel and unusual punishment of SUSPECTED "terrorists" speaks volumes in terms of it's assault on TRUE Christian values. Those who claim to be good Christians readily deploy methods of depravity? As if their "savior" would endorse such procedures?
To those of us (a growing community given the evident legacy of this disgusting cabal of amoral players) who believe 911 was an inside job... the projection of guilt onto the unfortunate innocents imprisoned for a charade approaches absolute ground zero: spiritually speaking.
Their karma will catch up with them, if U.S justice and/or the World Court cannot.
Will everyone please stop acting outraged that Christians are doing nothing.
I wouldnt count on the American people, Ms. Thomas. They're like people everywhere: arrogant, stupid, and apathetic. Perhaps more so given that their nation is the world's No. 1 bully.
litt_wmn@yahoo.com
I am convinced right now that George Bush can do ANYTHING and get by with it. Look at what's happened so far. And no, the so-called "Christians" aren't going to demand any action against him either. The "religious right" have been backing him all the way. I don't understand it, and it's frustrating and depressing.
And wait til the government does whatever they plan on doing to get the big one started with Iran. It's gonna happen, and soon, and we all know it. And it will be made to look like it is all Iran's fault. You can be sure there will be another event like 9/11 to get the public all enraged about it and willing to even have a draft. The "religious right" will be right up there standing behind Bush all patriotic and ready and willing to support a war on the "infidels" and "terrorists". And, just maybe, there won't even be an election this year.
Guess I better go and get my prescription of Anti-depressants filled while I still have insurance.
Many people truly believe that cheney knew more about the 9-11 attacks than he's said, or possibly even had a hand in it. Therefore, is it okay if bush waterboards him?
I am tempted to suspend my convictions that torture should never be used to publically waterboard Dick Cheney to confess who the unthinkable ultra high sources are that he takes his orders from. I do NOT think it all starts with Cheney and the Neocons.
So Bush has gotten away with murder and the nation continues to snore on..
In my dreams, I see a crowd of at least a million surging towards the White House with the intent to do a serious citizens arrest... and then I wake up.
one, two, ... one-two-three ...
Impeach the Bastards,
Put 'Em Both on Trial,
Let's Tell the U.S. Congress
to Play Grownup for a While . . .
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/32849
Dear Helen Thomas,
I know that you are concerned about the place America has as viewed by the world community. The United States, a country I once believed had a moral place in the affairs of humanity no longer occupies that place.
The policies that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, women, children and the elderly and helpless, never mind those who have become genuine terrorists, does not occupy a place of humanity, dignity or truth.
All branches of government in the majority of cases have supported the endless wars based solely upon American ascendancy and paranoia, what is termed the "national interest" but what is the national interest?
The question can be answered quickly and clearly. It is to have the United States be the richest most powerful nation in the world. It has remained so since the end of World War ll and maintained this position with the blood of its youth. The cost of maintaining that position has been great in terms of human life the latest figure (four thousand plus for an illegal war) and the cost of quality of life for the population generally, and health care and education even for its children particularly.
The top two percent of the country owns the majority of its wealth. The United States has continued its economic direction causing 70 percent of the world's toxicity with 6 percent of the world population. The incidence of cancer has doubled in the USA as a result of this and other policies in the last ten years.
In the face of human extinction as a result of global warming and climate change it has refused to join the world Kyoto accords to reduce emissions and the threat to human existence.
With this as the fundamental philosophy of the American people in place, a people who voted for George W. Bush and his vice president twice, it is not difficult to see why the congress, this group of Americans charged with leading America, cares little about torture or international criticism, accept for a few.
Every water source in the USA is polluted. In some municipalities in the United States a toxic environment threatens the complete population of municipalities. America displays a lack of concern for its own citizens, never mind those designated as the so called "enemy" and so while your concern is well placed for how America deals with its prisoners it is not hard to see why this is the mentality of its government. You ask:
"Is there no lawmaker who is appalled about the tarnishing of our image in world opinion? And where are the voices of the other presidential candidates who will inherit the Bush legacy of torture? Why the silence?
I count on the American people to refuse to be shamed any more."
You should not be shocked with the lack of caring or action by the elected leaders or the people of the USA about the use of torture. The government to maintain fear inculcated the above belief system and paranoia. It made certain, and still does, that Americans believe there is a terrorist under every bed, or have you forgotten the terrorist color chart of Homeland Buffoonery" who systematically subjected the American people to the politics of fear for political reasons and complete brainwashing supported by the media, particularly fox news?
Do you not understand that all candidates must maintain this position because Americans are afraid and require a daddy or mommy to protect them from fear? Anyone who is not their daddy or mommy will not get their vote in this forthcoming election. Witness the ad run recently by the Clinton campaign to underscore the above.
Yes the American people want to hold on to their toys at any price and if people are labeled terrorist, regardless of whether it is true, they will be subjected to whatever is deemed necessary by the secret police to extract
whatever information necessary from its prisoners, the world be damned and what it thinks of American actions, including preemptive military strikes, voted by congress.
Do you remember the freedoms that were stripped from the law, called Habeas Corpus? Do you still wonder why?
Ms. Helen Thomas, I thank you from the bottom of my bleedling liberal heart.
From the article: including "waterboarding" or simulated drowning.
There's nothing simulated about waterboarding... dumping water into someone's lungs is ACTUAL drowning. The only thing is that it's 'stopped' before the person dies...
ike kay said: The cost of maintaining that position has been great in terms of human life the latest figure (four thousand plus for an illegal war)
Notice how Ike only counts the American dead... under the title of 'human life'... what about the million+ Iraqi dead? Are they not human? Do they not count?
I hate to break this to everyone, but the majority of Americans - and we are not in the majority, my friends - have neither the inclination or means to learn the truth of what has really happened in this country. If one discovers the truth, one is forced to make a decision on how to respond to it. It is far easier and more convenient to remain ignorant - that way, when everything falls to pieces, they can say, like the good German, " I didn't know that all of this was happening, it was not my fault".
Remember the term "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"? They don't teach even basic law in school anymore. It's easier for so-called leaders to break the law if the citizenry doesn't have a basic grasp of what is legal and illegal.
We are finished as a country, and we are taking the entire planet with us, just because a few evil, malignant individuals were smart enough to set this in motion, and the majority were too dumb and lazy to wake up and stop them.
Has anyone here seen the HBO SERIES "JOHN ADAMS"?
I ask this because..I bet Der Junior has seen it..he watches allot of tv..so do I..so what..my point is this..
Do you think that when Bush watches a show..a series rather, like JOHN ADAMS..do you think he sits there and ..basks in his own image of himself? This ocurred to me last night as I watched the series..(I DVR em all before watching em...can't wait..) so..it struck me..that WHOMEVER IN GOVERNMENT THAT WATCHES A SERIES LIKE "JOHN ADAMS" WHAT DO THEY THINK WHEN THEY COMPARE THE ..DESPERATE URGE TO TRUE FREEDOM THAT THOSE MEN HAD..WELL..THE "HERO" ANYWAY..AND OTHERS..GEORGE WASHINGTON..ET AL..AND THE OBVIOUS SIMILARITIES BETWEEN "KING GEORGE" AND WELL.."KING GEORGE CIRCA 2008"?
Do you think they say to themsleves..'ahh I am SO MUCH LIKE THAT! I am in government, and I stand for those same freedoms! I feel great about myself knowing that I am carrying on the greatest excercise in Human Freedom the world has ever seen.."
Because if they DO..then of course theya re..PSYCHOTIC!
This is kind of a stupid point...I admit..but I can't help wondering, with shows and books about these men and the..TRULY devoted idea of "FREEDOM" and that certain "TRUTHS" were "SELF EVIDENT"...do you think that the current REGIME..still believes in..THE SAME SELF EVIDENT TRUTHS? DO YOU THINK THEY..OUR "REPRESENTATIVES" CAN ADMIT THAT IF JOHN ADAMS, THOMAS JEFFERSON, GEORGE WASHINGTON (A COP KILLER BY THE WAY..) CAME BACK TODAY AND SAW WHAT WAS BEING DONE TO THE DOCUMENTS THEY SHED THEIR BLOOD FOR...THAT THEY WOULD NEVER...STOP THROWING UP? DO YOU THINK ORIN HATCH CAN ADMIT THAT? DO YOU THINK FUCKING LIEBERMAN CAN ADMIT THAT?...NO! I SAY THESE MEN AND DER JUNIOR, CHENEY, AND ON AND ON AND ON..HAVE QUITE OBVIOUSLY, QUITE LITERALLY, AND ...PLAINLY...VIOLATED THEIR SACRED....SACRED...OATH'S TO PROTECT AND DEFEND THOSE "TRUTHS" THAT ARE IN FACT...SELF EVIDENT..TO THIS DAY..FOR THEY ARE..BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS...THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, THAT LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PERSUIT OF....AHH FORGET IT..YOU DON'T CARE...NO ONE REALLY DOES..FUCK IT..SEE YOU IN THE TRENCHES AFTER THE NEW CIVIL WAR STARTS...
WILL YOU BE ON THE SIDE OF THE LOYALIST GOVERNMENT FORCES? OR WILL YOU "JOIN OR DIE"
LOT'S O LUCK
Helen Thomas, where are your colleagues? Where are the intrepid reporters whose allegiance is to unbiased information, the life blood pumping the veins of democracy?
Bravo to you.
Shame, shame, shame on the punditocracy. Maybe that's the wrong word, pundit. It's Sanskrit for a very learned man, an expert or authority. Our recent experience, particularly when talking about the white house press corps, has made this ancient word mean scalawag, a person hired by authorities to remain in awe of authorities, an expert in nothing other than cozy relationships with the powerful, whose reporting, for the most part, fails the American people.
Thanks for your usual candor and courage. In addition to the "waterboarding" and other forms of torture inflicted on Khalid Shiek Mohammed with the blessing of our President, I assume that President Bush was also informed of and approved the CIA's kidnapping and detention at an undisclosed location within the US of Mr. Mohammed's two little sons (under the age of 10) for the purpose of extracting information which the CIA had not been able to extract by other means. (Please GOOGLE "CIA holds two Pakistani boys" for instant access to the 2003 London Telegraph story including quotes of unidentified CIA officials providing details of this incident which has yet to be reported by US media.) I wonder how the President would defend this "harsh interrogation method" (which, if it occurred as reported by the London Telegraph, is a capital crime under our federal Lindberg Kidnapping Act for which federal officials are not immune from criminal prosecution)? Might Helen or some other White House reporter pose this question at the next Presidential news conference?
"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." the New Hamphsire State flag.
"give me liberty or give me death." Patrick Henry
"My only regret is that I have only one life to give to my country." Nathan Hale
etc.
remember your heritage, citizens.
Bush admitted torture was acceptable behaviour, when he stuffed firecrackers up frog's butts and blew them up.
Of course he could probably explain he was only demonstrating what a terrorist suicide bomber can do. He's a very sick and dangerous man and so is Cheney.
"We The People" are actually to blame. We have allowed our countty to evolve to it's current status, by not being infomred citizens, by not voting more than 45% and by allowing fascism to be our current form of government.
Our press shares a major portion of the blame, except our press and the media drones who read the news to us is not free anymore, it's owned by the same small band of people who own everything else of importnce. We don't have enough decent and honest people like Keith Olberman and Helen Thomas in the "free" press.
Here's what's really amazing: "...earlier this month when Bush acknowledged in an interview with ABC-TV..."
ABC actually broadcast some real news. I'll bet heads are rolling over that one.
Duh! All decisions come from the top. Nothing new to report here.
JCrumb:
W watches a lot of TV. But methinks that his favorite show was 24, or maybe some John Wayne war movie.
resistor: You, my friend, are unfortunately completely 100% correct... The vast majority of people don't want to hear the truth... and if they do hear it, they refuse to accept it because that would mean going against their entire socialization. Even on progressive sites, you'll get jumped all over if you dare raise the idea of the US soldiers murdering in the name of empire...
What if everybody took a few days off and DROVE to D.C.
Screw the protests where the little people are corralled and gassed and beaten. Imagine what would happen with a million-car protest? Choking smoke, complete shutdown of transportation (except rails)...eh? No gas for hundreds of miles. Cops confused and unable to act.
Think of it, you drive until you get stuck. Open the cooler and the van door, pull out the BBQ and sit with your new road neighbors until Congress is forced to actually do something.
C'mon! Car protest!
Is anyone still in any doubt about the true motives underlying the US refusal to accept the International Court of Justice ("World Court") as the judicial body of last resort for dealing with crimes against peace and humanity -- and its instistence on bilateral agreements that, in effect, place US actions TOTALLY beyond the reach of ALL laws and customs of civilized behavior.
The US president (a.k.a. CEO of USA Incorporated) claims for himself and, in fact, does actually exercise unilateral powers, both domestically and globally, that far outreach the wildest ambitions of any king or emperor in recent history. If his assumption of arbitrary life and death decision making over everyone on earth is not the very definition of tyranny, the word has lost all meaning.
His authorization of the torture of helpless individuals, horrendous as that undoubtedly is, can only be considered as mere prelude to his tyrannical condemnation of entire peoples with unilateral "secret findings" and covert actions. Six weeks ago, President Bush signed a secret finding authorizing a covert offensive against Iran that is, according to those familiar with its contents, "unprecedented in its scope." More here.
"Enhanced interrogation." Sounds kinda civilized, doesn't it.
I don't know why Colin Powell was ever revered and looked up to since he helped cover up the My Lai massacre of village peasants in Vietnam. It's a crazy world.
Cross posted but applicable to the situation. No offense to Helen Thomas in leaving her out of the following comment:
There are no statesmen to stand up and rectify the situation as regard to torture and many other problems facing our country. There is no one to voice the concerns of the many; not in the media and not in the political realm. There are no Walter Cronkite's; there are no FDR's. There is no voice of sanity being heard in this sad state of affairs known as the United States of America. Instead we have the virulent Right and shallow figures such as Pelosi and Reid coupled with a half assed John Wayne as fearless leader. A cowboy type leader who is nothing more than a recovering alcoholic that went AWOL when it was his time to step up. America's frigging doomed without some adult leadership soon and all of the blood we've ever shed will have been for naught.
Waterboarding Cheney for the truth may seem like a good idea. Try to realize that if you were torturing him all you would get from it (torturing Cheney) is a lot of self satisfaction.
There are plenty of photos of Nazi war crimes - so why not US war crimes? What's the difference? Americans don't want to be equated with Hitler's Nazis? Well, then don't act like them - it's as simple as that.
Show the photos - all of them - on prime time TV for everyone to see - especially the children, so they will know what their country and their parents are defending. It's the way I was raised - and I can tell the difference between reality and propaganda. That's what we need now - reality, not just more lies and propaganda.
"I count on the American people to refuse to be shamed any more."
Don't hold your breadth. Americans are upset because we are loosing the war. There are many people like Bush in this country who enjoy torture, capitol punishment and war. Sociopaths. We are a sick nation. Our history shows this. In Indiana not to long ago there were 2200 chapters of the Women's auxilary of the KKK. The Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. You don't see this on the news.
Helen Thomas, one of a diminishing handful of fearless, true journalists still remaining in the MSM, knows the answer to her own question.
Once referred to by Ann Coulter as "that old Arab," she knows full well that the very reason Congress and the media are not standing up to Bush on the torture issue is that those being tortured are Arabs and Muslims.
Anyone think for one second that if these prisoners were Jews this would continue, or be defended by the media or the Congress? Think Jonathan Pollard (who Israel and their agents here are still tirelessly trying to get released) was waterboarded?
This, if nothing else, should reveal to Americans the power of the Israeli lobby in this country. If you can't see that that, please remove your head from your ass before you suffocate.
"And where are the voices of the other presidential candidates who will inherit the Bush legacy of torture?"
Right here, baby!!!
Ron Paul:
"Legal issues aside, the American people and government should never abide the use of torture by our military or intelligence agencies. A decent society never accepts or justifies torture."
Ralph Nader:
"Bush has concentrated so much arbitrary power in his Presidency that he can be described in the vernacular as the torturer-in-chief, the jailer-in-chief and the arrestor-in-chief."
Plenty more where that came from, Helen. The Corporate Candidates ain't the only ones running. Try to keep that in mind, will ya? Jeeze...
The only problem I have with Helen's piece is her apparent surprise that Powell was one of those on the Principal's Committee who condoned torture. How anyone was cowed by Powell, ever, is as bewildering as why anyone but the stupidest ever voted for Bush. Powell embodies hypocrisy and always has. He's a perfect example of everything that's wrong with this asinine country: posing as some mountain of integrity, he's a hollow man of the worst sort, a climber always eager to please his superiors no matter how venal and corrupt. And they get no more venal and corrupt than Bush/Cheney.
If Powell ever had a "halo" it was put there by a fawning media who've been in the habit of mistaking gangsters and thugs for heroic saints for about 30 years now. It's amazing someone as perceptive as Helen Thomas ever fell for Powell's con game.
We've known all of this for some time, and we can expect no actions from Congress in response to these gross Consitutional abuses and violations of international laws.
I don't think the U.S. people writing to Congress has been effective. Certainly, protests have been ignored - especially by our traditional watchguard, the so-called "free press."
Helen Thomas' appeals to the American people are just that - appeals. It's not just that people are tuned out. It makes no difference if they are even engaged on these issues! Get mad, but then ask who really cares in Washington D.C.
The American people are left with the prospect of having to take up arms against their government. All other avenues of redress to defend the Constitution from domestic enemies (Bush admin, Congress and Supreme Court) have been blocked because the laws are ignored, nullified or rewritten ex post facto. So far, U.S. violence has mostly been projected outward. However, the economic screws are being applied here at home to keep the people quiet.
I think there will be a breaking point. A Democratic Presidential victory clearly won't change things. The pot is on the boil, but when it will blow is anyone's guess.
By the way, Colin Powell has always covered up for the crimes of his superiors - that's what he did in Vietnam, if you read Robert Parry's fine exposes of Powell. So, no surprise there. Powell's protege, Col. Wilkerson, is on the circuit tour trying to rewrite history on Powell's complicity in war crimes.
Impeachment, indictment or inprisonment are all too light of a sentance for "W". I think he should have to serve the remainder of his reserve time (the Texas AirGuard tour he walked away from) in Iraq and then be stop-lossed when his rotation date comes up.
My proudest moments as an American involved protesting the Viet Nam War. I was surrounded by tens of thousands of my fellow Americans united in a common cause, the ending of a war that should never have been fought. Today the cause is much more dire, in fact our government is not only engaged in another illegal and immoral war in Iraq but is screwing badly the war in Afghanistan , an invsion that could be justified.
In addition we have seen the steady erosion of much that made this nation special. Yet we see noone in the streets when we should ALL be there! Democracy is a participatory process and, by failing to participate, we are destroying something that many thousands fought and died to preserve.
What on earth is wrong with us?
Here's a troubling thought:
Just Between Us
By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Newsweek
Wednesday 30 April 2008
Excerpt:
"But while complying with the judge's order to confirm the existence of some documents, administration officials have told the judge they cannot actually disclose the documents themselves, in part because to do so would undermine national security. Even to confirm the identity of any of the carriers with whom administration officials have discussed the surveillance issue would implicitly identify the carriers that participated in the program and therefore "would provide our adversaries with a road map" that would help them thwart surveillance against them, according to a court declaration filed by Lt. Gen. Ronald L. Burgess, director of the ODNI's intelligence staff.
Spokesmen for the Justice Department and ODNI today declined comment to NEWSWEEK on the grounds that neither agency will talk about pending litigation.
The revelation of the existence of the documents comes at a time when Congress is bracing for what is expected to be a grueling summer-long debate over the surveillance measure. Administration officials say that unless Congress acts by this summer, existing court orders permitting surveillance of suspected overseas terrorists will expire, threatening the U.S. government's ability to keep track of potential plots against the homeland. If new legislation is not enacted before the current stop-gap law expires, Republicans may try to use this as an election issue against Democrats."
Well here we go; the writing is on the wall. First it takes a FOIA request for documents, then a judge's order to enforce it, then they admit there are documents, but no one can see them because of the too often used ruse of 'national security'. Then no one will speak to the press because of another excuse/ruse 'pending litigation', so it becomes a non-story covered by the media except to claim those opposed to illegal surveillance will be responsible for any future attack if they don't let the administration continue illegally spying on them.
What a shameful sham. Expect an interesting 'October Surprise', and I don't think it will be very pretty, most likely deadly for someone, perhaps/certainly equal to, or greater than 911. Just watch, or better yet raise hell BEFORE these crooks can once more flim-flam the public. Nancy Pelosi, you are asleep at the wheel, or an accomplice...take your pick what you want YOUR legacy to be.
If "issuing a legal opinion" is all it takes to change law... what do we have congress for? Why not just hire a couple of lawyers to give us opinions?
Hey, great idea. I'm gonna hire me a tax attorney to issue an opinion that I don't have to pay taxes anymore.
Next, I'm gonna hire a lawyer that opines that I can arrest George Bush once he is out of office and ship him off to the Hague.
Of all the comments that I have read above, I cannot say that there is one that I honestly diagree with.
I do, recognize the fact however that no one is going to do anything but bitch and gripe about it.
And despite "polls" that should a continuing and even growing disapproval of our continuance in Iraq, much less the inevitable attack on Iran, odds are that John McCain will be elected so he can continue the Bush policy.
I certainly sympathize with Senator McCain for what he had to go through during the time he was imprisioned and tortured while in Vietnam.
While we'll naver really know if he had any knowledge of anything that was worth their torturing him for, it was his duty not to divulge anything. I therefore applaud him for doing his duty, but NOTHING more.
He constantly "wraps himself in the American flag", always reminding us of his military duty, which we are grateful for just as we are of countless others who served in Vietnam, and Korea & WW II before them.
But face it, people; JOHN MCCAIN AIN'T NO AUDIE MURPHY!
I'm glad to see that there are many Americans as outraged as I am that the US government has, thus far, been able to get away with these crimes. It's quite possible that my country (Canada) isn't doing much better, since it has been alleged that Canadian troops have handed Afgani prisoners over to Afganis, who have then tortured them. In the world that I thought I was living in, a Western democracy, I didn't think that this could happen without people going absolutely nuts. I know there are a lot of us who feel this way but, apparently, not enough of us do, else why are we still talking about this years after we became aware that it was happening? I don't understand. at. all.
Protests by enough people used to work. LBJ was a mean bastard, but he couldn't take so many standing against him during the Vietnam War. He decided not to run for a second term. Nixon had a heart of dry ice, but he absolutely hated the protesters and protests, and it made him crazy enough to enable the Watergate thing. Then it was just a matter of time. But this administration -- they don't see us, they don't hear us, we aren't the least bit important to them. We're common Americans, not rich Somebodies of anywhere. We don't exist. They fix elections, they rewrite the Constitution, and that's that.
So now what? Perhaps every one of you who signed an oath to uphold the Constitution, including teachers, should actively find a way to fulfill that obligation. Do it now, before they steal our souls along with the silver.
And ... I'm sure you know that the trial this former military judge was giving testimony in was that of Omar Khadr, a Canadian man who is accused of throwing a grenade and killing a US soldier. Only trouble is, Khadr was a 15-year-old boy at the time. He's been in prison for six years. This is not how the international community believes that child soldiers should be treated and is an outrage. My country has been suitably docile and cooperative in keeping Khadr imprisoned and subject to the highly questionable "justice" he will receive at Guantanamo Bay. And this treatment of a child soldier in the US, who has accepted and embraced Ishmael Beah, a child soldier who addmittedly killed more people than he can remember and wrote a book about it. Beah himself doesn't understand this differential treatment, except that he didn't kill any Americans. Apparently, an American life is worth thousands of other lives. Maybe more if you compare the number killed in NY on 9/11 to the numbers killed in "response". We are living through a hideous time and our voices are still not loud enough.
Sorry to keep going on, but this discussion is a bit frustrating. I was a Vietnam war protester too and all I can say is, those protests had thousands and thousands of people participating on a regular basis. I've been out on the streets in my town, Toronto, and, though the crowd was large a few days after the war began, it quickly dribbled out and then was silent, but for once a year, when much smaller numbers of people participate despite all the horrors that have come to light since then. When the war began, my son camped out at City Hall for 37 days and nights, during atrocious weather - one night we had freezing rain and I had to go use an ice pick to get him off the ground in the morning. He was joined by maybe a half dozen others. There was no leadership. The Vietnam protests were highly organized and there was some structure at the grassroots level to keep things going. It was basically young people who did that. And perhaps we were in revolt against more than the war and maybe self-interest was part of what kept us going, but we also wanted to change the things we didn't like about the world. We seem to have created a culture in which young people no longer pay attention to these things. Also, don't kid yourselves, the protests was only ONE reason why the Vietnam War ended - and it certainly wasn't because Nixon didn't like protesters. But please, let's not wait as long as we waited for that war to end.
How convenient. If lawyers advise you to break this long-standing law, you are exempt from legal responsibility. So are the lawyers responsible? Innocent people suffered horribly and a few even died. Crimes against humanity are enforcible. In 1996, the Republican-led Congress passed and President Clinton signed a law that set out to name the punishments for these specific crimes against humanity up to and including execution. I believe there is no time limitation on being brought to justice, harkening to the many years it took to catch up with some of the Nazis. It is also true that each signator nation to the Geneva Conventions has the right and the responsibility to try those having committed war crimes such as the invasion of a sovereign nation without the approval of the UN Security Council as well as the crimes against humanity as they continue to do to this day. Failure to enforce standing and just laws makes the US an outlaw nation.
Ms. Thomas: SURELY you, of all people, have been around Washington long enough to recognize that this is the final part of "THE DANCE", and the
American people are just now being confronted with the truth . . . . but
the GREAT AMERICAN PEOPLE are so stupid that they can't / won't voice any
discontent, AND IF THEY DID, "HOW"?????? The PRESS IS NOW COMPLETELY IN THE HANDS OF THE POLITICIANS.
An elderly Gentleman friend of mine died recently (he was 99 YO), and the highly respected in-house ATTORNEY for a very large American Corporation for some years.
His finaly commentary on the American Political Scene was that the only thing that could save this country now was a MILITARY COUP. Poor old devil
went to his grave with those thoughts, thankfully before he saw the sad
state of the military higher grade General Officers.. . . . . all ass-kissers. Doug McArthur must be whirling in his grave.
Better our government torture them over there then the government torture us over here.
meetmrcallaghan May 2nd, 2008 6:40 pm .......
http://www.wcltam.com/news/special/articledetail.cfm?articleid=23261
That would be better for whom, WORDS ARE IMPORTANT?
Be better if this thread was not necessary and torture was never used. What in hell happened to McCain, does he want the presidency that bad, that he now won't speak out firmly against it. ?
I thought you'd like to check out the political allegory of mine that I just found a literary agent for. It's a story set in the context of a teacher discussing with his class all of the evidence that the Bush administration is as corrupt as it is incompetent….and how to rectify the Constitutional crisis we face. It's couched in a discussion about the urgent need to stop abusing Mother Nature. I wrote in 3 dozen celebrities to play the students, so it's very funny despite how infuriating it is. You can read it at www.stoplittering.com/theswitch.htm and, yes, StopLittering.com is my site.