Taking Back the Debate Over Israel
Sick of right-wing Jews speaking in their name, progressive American Jews have launched J Street to change the way the game is played in Washington.
For years, liberal American Jews who have chafed under the taboo against criticizing Israel have dreamed of starting a political organization that would speak for them. Now, with the launch of J Street, that dream has become a reality.
Jeremy Ben-Ami, the group’s founder, says that the incident that drove him over the edge took place when he was working as policy director for Howard Dean’s 2004 presidential campaign. Dean said the U.S. should take an “evenhanded” approach to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian crisis, Ben-Ami recalled. He was immediately, and predictably, savaged as anti-Israeli and a coddler of terrorists. “All hell broke loose,” Ben-Ami said. “And this from a man who’s married to a Jewish woman, who’s raising kids in the Jewish faith, and is extremely pro-Israel in everything he’d ever said and done. But to use that one word, and then to have that cascade into a torrent, was just amazing to me. And it’s certainly been repeated and magnified with the attacks on Obama and some of his aides, some of them crossing any line that any of us should have about civil discourse.”
There are few political relationships more fraught than that between American Jews and Israel. As the national emblem of Jewish identity, Israel is seen by many Jews as sacrosanct. Some Jews passionately identify with Israel and its policies and angrily reject any criticism of it, often attacking critics as anti-Semites or self-hating Jews. But even those Jews who privately harbor misgivings about Israel’s policies often keep their opinions to themselves because the subject is simply too charged. Anyone, Jewish or not, who dares to say or write anything critical about Israel quickly learns that they have poked a hornet’s nest.
What makes the subject especially sensitive — and keeps many people, including most journalists, from going anywhere near it — is that, far more than any other issue, it splits the progressive and intellectual community. Speaking more plainly, it divides one’s friends and colleagues — sometimes even one’s family. Jews have always played a prominent role in America’s progressive and intellectual circles. And if you have a connection to those circles and you criticize Israel, you are almost certain to deeply offend or anger someone whom you respect, like, and have many things in common with. Small wonder that, as former Israeli official Daniel Levy told me, most people, Jews and non-Jews alike, “decide to sit this one out. It’s more of a headache than it’s worth.”
The taboo isn’t only enforced by such personal matters, of course. It’s also aggressively enforced by powerful Jewish lobbies like AIPAC, mainstream Jewish groups and leaders like Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, who claim to speak on behalf of all Jews. Congress, intimidated by the moral authority (or moral blackmail) and political clout wielded by these organizations and afraid of offending Jewish donors who are a major force in Democratic fundraising, invariably falls into line. The fact that Congress has staked out a position on Israel to the right of the Bush administration’s pretty much says it all. The default right-wing position on Israel is holy writ in American politics, and explains why Hillary Clinton can pander to the right-wing pro-Israel lobby by casually threatening to “totally obliterate” Iran — vaporize 70 million men, women and children who have nothing to do with their leaders’ anti-Israeli posturings — without paying any political price for such irresponsible statements.
Nothing is more urgently needed in our political discourse than for the taboo against speaking forthrightly about Israel to be overthrown. After all, notwithstanding its profound connection to some American Jews and its (partly justified) status as a beloved icon with whom we have a “special relationship,” Israel is not the 51st state — it is a foreign country, and one smack-dab in the center of the Middle East, a region in which we have some considerable national interest. The enforced silence about Israel has prevented us from thinking clearly about the Middle East, and helped enable both the disastrous war we are now fighting in Iraq and a possible future one against Iran.
But because of the highly sensitive nature of the subject, American Jews must lead the way.
Which is why the birth of J Street, whose goal Ben-Ami says is “to redefine what it means to be pro-Israel,” is cause for unalloyed celebration. “Over the course of a quarter century of doing American politics, I’ve seen the way in which the Israel issue plays out,” Ben-Ami said in a phone interview from J Street’s Washington, D.C., office. “And it greatly disturbs me and it greatly disturbs a very large number of progressive American Jews, who believe very strongly in Israel but feel that the way in which the American Jewish community’s voice has been expressed on these issues doesn’t reflect our values or opinions. Only the voices of the far right have been heard. They’ve really hijacked the debate when it comes to Israel.”
That debate has been skewed, Ben-Ami said, because most liberal American Jews have a broad range of interests and are not obsessed with Israel, whereas their hard-line counterparts tend to be focused on that single issue. This means that although the loudest voices on Israel come from the right, large numbers of American Jews hold much more moderate positions. “The policies we believe in — a two-state solution with a broad-based land for peace agreement; pursuing diplomatic solutions with places like Iran before military ones — are positions that are broadly held by large numbers of people, Jewish or not,” Ben-Ami said. “I hesitate to quantify and say that a majority of American Jews would agree with our positions, but if it isn’t a majority, I think it’s a very large minority. And so at a minimum, what we can succeed in doing is busting the myth that people who think like this are all alone.”
But J Street is doing more than providing cover for liberal American Jews: It’s bringing money to the table. J Street is an advocacy and educational group, but more important, it is a political action committee — a PAC. This means that, unlike the existing (and admirable) liberal advocacy Jewish organizations like the Israel Policy Forum, Americans for Peace Now and Brit Tzedek v’Shalom, J Street will be a true political player, able to provide financial support to members of Congress who dare to defy the right-wing Israel lobby and work to defeat others who support destructive Israeli policies. Equally important, it plans to educate politicians that many Jewish donors don’t expect unquestioning fealty to Israel in exchange for their contributions — what Ben-Ami calls “connecting the dots.”
J Street’s first-year budget is a modest $1.5 million, but the Internet revolution in politics has changed the rules of the game. Its founders hope to raise significant money online, following in the wildly successful footsteps of MoveOn and the Obama campaign.
M.J. Rosenberg, the policy director of the Israel Policy Forum, a liberal education and advocacy group that he says will work “in parallel” with J Street, said he thought the new organization had a good chance of succeeding.
“They’re primarily a PAC, so I think they can have success because they’re tapping into politics,” Rosenberg said. “Politics is very attractive right now. They’re going to follow the Obama/MoveOn model, with a heavy Web presence, trying to create a mass movement. They’re really going to go after the young people, which is something the mainstream organizations don’t do.”
J Street will release its first round of political endorsements in June. It will start out focusing on a few key, cherry-picked races, featuring progressive candidates running against vulnerable incumbents whom the new PAC deems irresponsibly hawkish on Israel. If its involvement makes a difference in even one race, it will send a powerful message to members of Congress that their positions on the Middle East will result in both carrots and sticks.
Rosenberg said J Street’s potential ability to raise funds could make a crucial difference in Congress. “Take the example of Congresswoman Betty McCollum, from Minnesota,” Rosenberg said. “She came out strongly against an AIPAC bill blocking aid to the Palestinians, so AIPAC attacked her in her district and said she was an apologist for terrorists. In the end AIPAC couldn’t do anything. She prevailed. But now, the way it could work is, if she gets the word from some donor that ‘you’re going to lose $25,000,’ she can pick up the phone and call J Street and say, ‘I’m down $25,000 because I stuck my neck out on this issue.’ And they’ll say, ‘We’ll make it up, and you’ll have $30,000.’ I mean, that never existed before. And it really can make a difference.
“The other thing is, even some of these people who take a really hard line on these issues, when you wave $2,000 checks in front of them, they might decide that they don’t really feel the necessity to say this crazy stuff,” Rosenberg said. “There’s never been a downside to Palestine-bashing on the part of members of Congress. And now they’re going to be identified. It can only be good.”
One of the things that frustrates progressive Jews, Rosenberg said, is that Jewish Democrats like Jerry Nadler or Barney Frank are liberal on every issue except Israel, I asked him if the existence of an organization like J Street might lead such politicians to moderate their hawkish line on Israel. “Oh, no doubt. I think they very rarely get challenged from the left,” Rosenberg said. “They hear from the right-wing AIPAC crowd on this issue, but the people on the left talk to them about other issues. They don’t talk to them about this one. So I think all it takes is them hearing that this is what their constituents want, and I think that they will moderate their positions.”
For his part, Ben-Ami said politicians on the Hill had reacted extremely positively to J Street’s launch. “It is remarkable, the level of enthusiasm that people have for the idea that somebody’s going to step in here and stop the madness,” he said. “Look, America is Israel’s friend. It’s pretty locked up. About the only thing that we can do to drive America away from Israel is to press our luck too far, keep on saying ‘Is it pro-Israel enough?,’ keep demanding that we have 32 preamble clauses that say how bad the Palestinians are.” Ben-Ami said the politicians he spoke to wanted to make sure that the U.S.-Israel relationship was not damaged by such overkill, and were grateful that a new organization would “give them a little bit of relief from this constant pressure.”
J Street’s founders boast strong ties to Israel — essential to deflect attacks from the hawkish pro-Israel right. Executive director Ben-Ami, who in addition to working for Dean was President Bill Clinton’s deputy domestic policy adviser, has deep ties to the Jewish state: His grandparents were among the founders of Tel Aviv, his parents were Israelis, his family suffered in the Holocaust, and he has lived in Israel, where he was almost blown up in a Jerusalem terror attack. Daniel Levy, who also played a key role in J Street’s creation, is a former high-ranking Israeli official who took part in the 2001 Taba negotiations with the Palestinians and was the lead Israeli drafter of the groundbreaking Geneva Initiative. J Street also boasts the endorsement of some heavy hitters from the Israeli political, military and security establishment, including a former senior member of Mossad, a former foreign minister and the former chief of staff of the Israeli army.
I asked Ben-Ami if he really thought his organization could change a political reality that has endured for decades and seems locked in stone. “I am deeply optimistic,” Ben-Ami said. In addition to the fact that many Jews agreed with J Street’s policies, he pointed out that the “very visible” right- wing Jewish support for the Iraq war and for a possible future war against Iran was a powerful motivation for liberal American Jews to speak out.
“Some of the loudest voices that are beating the war drums are those of either neocons who happen to be Jewish, or established Jewish community leaders who happen to be neocons. This is very disturbing,” Ben-Ami said. “And it applies not only to Israel but to the whole Middle East — whether it’s American policy towards Iran, or maybe it had some role in the leadup to the war in Iraq. And I think this has made people say, ‘Wait a minute, I may never have been interested in Israel, I may never have been interested in the Jewish community, but these folks are speaking in my name and driving us towards wars and policies that I don’t want to be responsible for.’”
Daniel Levy, the former Israeli negotiator, said J Street would also try to make hay off of mainstream Jewish organizations’ cynical embrace of far-right Christian bigots like Rev. John Hagee. “John Hagee will be a bit of a poster boy for us, a very useful stick to beat the bastards with,” Levy said. “There’s a Jewish constituency out there that’s extremely uncomfortable about making common cause with people like Hagee. He’s a total bigot, anti-gay, anti-women’s rights, anti-Catholic, and suddenly he’s the best friend of the Jews? It’s not like Israel and the Jews are some kind of hunted group, and but for Hagee America would be bombing Israel and cutting off aid. It’s a disgrace, it’s dangerous to make common cause with those people. They’re not your real allies. The fact that John Hagee and Christians United for Israel, which has Gary Bauer and all the worst people in the world on their board, unite to ‘honor Israel’ around the country, should have the Jewish community up in arms.”
Of course, the reason some American Jews have embraced the likes of Hagee — or George W. Bush, for that matter — is that they regard Israel’s security as paramount, and feel that any criticism from the United States endangers it. Ben-Ami said he understood and sympathized with this attitude, but that it led to policies that were both unjust and ultimately bad for Israel. “Look, I lost my grandmother in the Holocaust, I’ve lost whole branches of my family. I understand that people come out of an experience that was searing. Literally. And that’s something that would shape your mind-set as a community — the desire for safety and a place where we would be free from that. But we’re not doing a very good job at creating a secure home by conducting ourselves in this manner towards another people that are a minority, and that are powerless, and treating them in a way that forces them essentially to become terrorists, and leads to us being again in danger.”
Another key reason that J Street is urgently needed, Ben-Ami said, is to heal a dangerous and growing schism in the Jewish community. “There’s a real generational issue here,” he said. “Look at the young people. The Jewish community is a fairly progressive community and always has been. If you look at the environmental community today, if you look at the people working on Darfur, on Tibet, a large percentage of them are Jews. So the question is what’s going to happen to these people. If we say that in order to be tied to the established Jewish community, either through federations or synagogues or any institutional entity, you have to go through a litmus test of ‘do you stand with Israel right or wrong on everything’ before we’ll let you feel comfortable in our institutions, we’re going to drive all these people away. We’re going to lose an entire generation.”
With its small war chest and staff of four, J Street faces long odds. Its founders say that many American Jews, especially in New York and Los Angeles, have offered them support, but acknowledge that they’re going more on a hunch that their time has come than anything else. The fledgling organization is challenging not only the vast institutional and financial muscle of lobbies like AIPAC, but a daunting array of psychological and emotional hurdles within the Jewish community. But if it succeeds, it could make an significant, perhaps even a decisive, difference in American Mideast policy. It could heal a growing rift within the American Jewish community. And it could help save Israel from itself. Stay tuned.
–Gary Kamiya
Copyright © 2008 Salon Media Group, Inc.
Good luck guys. You have your work cut out for you.
Hoa binh
And by many Americans too, it appears. Therein lies much of the (deliberate) confusion at the heart of the dilemma. Whereas Jews (the ethnic and religious community) may have legitimate claims as victims of past perscution, Isreal (the Zionist state entity) most assuredly does not.
To the contrary, Isreal’s existence and history have been marked by the persecution of others, and increasingly so in recent times. That is not to suggest that the current victims are themselves blameless. Nevertheless, the one-sided assistance provided by the US (another notorious aggressor) has not gone unremarked by the rest of the world.
There are some interesting “exceptionalism” parallels between Americans and Jews and the mythologies involved in both cases. Uri Avnery’s recent Counterpunch article on the subject is worth reading.
AIPAC and the pro-Likud PAC’s have so overplayed their hand in spying and meddling in US politics, I’d be fearful of starting any pro-Israel PAC. The invasion of Iraq was the greatest strategic blunder in US history, and people will look for scapegoats. The dry-drunk and former cokehead Bush will not suffice, and people will look for people at home who collaborated with a foreign power that brought us to this low point. Who do you think that will be? You can probably guess that my belief is that the Jews will be cast in their old role as scapegoats. That’s sad, because the Jewish community in the US has been a voice for progressive politics, but that will be overlooked. What will stand out will be their support for Zionist policies by Israel, and the disastrous consequences that has had for the US.
You heard it here first. The train has left the station. Within 5 years, it won’t be safe to call yourself Jewish. That’s really, really sad. Can anything be done now to reverse what’s coming?
There is really a simple solution to the Israel situation. Just declare that the northern half of New Jersey to be the “New Israel”. Transport all of the Jews from Israel to Northern New Jersey. Arm them so that they can drive out the existing residents by threats of and acts of violence. Allow expansion of “settlements” into southern New Jersey, Pennsylvania and New York. If the existing population protests build a wall around Staten Island and move the protesters inside the wall. Presto. Problem solved.
Oh. I almost forgot. Once those driven off their own property and into neighboring states, don’t forget to attempt to destroy any remaining means of support to the refugees, such as orchards, greenhouses, and the like. Also cut off electricity to the displaced, and make sure there is little sewage sanitation available to them. It would also be a good idea to cut off their water and energy supplies. Its time to get tough with those northern New Jerseyites. They are occupying land that belongs to the Jews.
I’m old-enough to remember when ‘Liberal’ and “Jewish” were Synonymous…
[How ‘quaint’, huh?]
And the movement continues to grow!
These American Jews know very well the label they will receive from the Zionist here in America and in Israel.
Self-hating Jews!
The Zionist have very effectively used labels over the years to further their agenda. Anti-Semitic is a prime example.
Most people do not realize that to be anti-Semitic means you express hatred toward, discriminate against, or violently attack Semitic people.
So who are Semitic people?
Speakers of a language group which includes both Arabs and Jews.
My suggestion to Arab peoples would be to start making the same claims against all who participate in the hate-speech, discrimination, jailing of and violent attacks against Muslims of Arab decent. Perhaps they too can obtain the same results as the Zionist have over the last 6 decades.
(All but parenthesied directly from JINSA website)
Every year, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, JINSA, awards its favorite policy or military elite the Henry “Scoop” Jackson Distinguished Service Award. The award honors “those leaders whose careers have been distinguished by the principle that is the foundation of JINSA’s work: the belief that the United States requires a strong military capability for both its own security and for that of trustworthy friends and allies(i.e. Israel). Among the recipients have been Sen. John McCain (2006), Paul Wolfowitz (2002), Sen. Joseph Lieberman (1997).
A majority of Israelis favor direct talks with Hammas.
AIPAC and JINSA don’t talk for me. Or most other American Jews.
The pyschotic rantings of McCain and Clinton make Obama look thoughtful in comparison.
The damage done by the US or its proxies in the Muslim world, from Iran (overthrow of democratically elected government in53/54?), Iraq (invasions and support of Hussein-yes that Hussein-remember the ‘85 picture with Rumsfeld?) , Palestine, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia (backing their gov’t- Bandar Bush, etc.), to Indonesia (supporting brutality) and Bangladesh (Global warming) need to be acknowledged. And policies changed yesterday.
It’s high time the European Union stepped in too. The preferential trade Agreements between the EU and Israel, granting Israel the right to import its goods duty-free or almost in Europe, stipulates the agreement is contingent on Israel respecting international human rights, i.e., Geneva Conventions among others, or risk losing its preferential status.
Meanwhile, Israel’s target-of-the-month appears to be Palestinian infants and children under the age of 6 in Gaza.
I’m sure there are many more than the following three websites but they are a beginning for those interested in becoming involved in changing the course that the Zionist have set forth here in the U.S.
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
http://www.tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner
I personally am a member of Jewish Voices for Peace and have personal contact with Anna, having arranged for her to speak in our area.
Hopefully, the J-Street folks will do some hard-headed lobbying with both the Clinton and Obama camapigns, which are so far in AIPAC’s back pocket that it will take truckloads of chapstick to revive their lips and trainloads of Bactine to fix their bleeding knees.
J Street deserves our moral and financial support. The very existence of Israel depends on the majority of American Jews expressing their true feelings about the Likud Party’s policies.
Ben-Ami says, “The Jewish community is a fairly progressive community and always has been. If you look… at the people working on Darfur, on Tibet, a large percentage of them are Jews.”
So, in Mr. Ben-Ami’s opinion, working on a US government-backed successionist movement is a standard by which to measure what is progressive.
Why is this article on Common Dreams?
How ’bout skipping all the baby steps and just going to Public -Funded Campaigns?
Then no Congressperson need feel nervous that they might be “down $25,000″ because of their stance on an issue.
Progressive PACs to bribe the crooks to vote our way!?
Ugh.
-matti.
Better read “New Kid on the Block Sings Same Old Tune” by Rannie Amiri in the CounterPunch before you put your trust in this new scheme. J Street is a sham, a new, laundered AIPAC.
I think its very courageous for Ben Ami and his supporters to walk into the jaws of death literally. Ties to liberal Israelis (they do exist) is crucial. AIPAC ofcourse will do everything it can to crush this movement like a bug but hey at least these guys are trying …
It is against the letter and spirit of American law as described in Brown vs. Board of Education for the US government to support the principle of separate but equal. We cannot support separate but equal Palestines (one designated as Israel) in our foreign policy. We must support only a unified, secular, democratic Palestine with tolerance for all three faiths.
Matti said: How ’bout skipping all the baby steps and just going to Public -Funded Campaigns? –Exactly!
As far as J.-Street why have another ethnic lobby on this issue? I look at this skeptically as AIPAC has such a bad name right now and J-Street sure sounds nice to ones ears in comparison. I must also point out that there are some (not all) Jews on the left who hesistate to hold the same standards to Israel given cultural, and emotional ties that they would to say Columbia, or Korea, or US Foriegn Policy. They also are some of the same people to deny that AIPAC and the neocons had any influence on shapping US policy in the region. Hence, I wonder how much of a difference will J-Street make? Well I guess anything is better then AIPAC but will we hesistate even more then to criticize J-Street as a result if its actions are harmful?
So why not have an inclusive lobby of both Jews and Arabs and anyone else concerned to reform things? I think only all together are we ever going to resolve this conflict and bring peace. This seems the better idea although Matti hit the nail on the head on the absolute best route to follow regarding clean elections.
Page 192 of Albert Einstein’s book “IDEAS and OPINIONS”, 1938:
EINSTEIN: “My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest.
“I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain–especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have Ialready had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state.
“We are no longer the Jews of the Maccabee period.
“A return to a nation in the political sense of the word would be equivalent to turning away from the spiritualization of our community which we owe to the genius of our prophets.
“If external necessity should after all compel us to assume this burden, let us bear it with tact and patience.”
(End Einstein’s quote.)
Einstein’s presentiments have proven accurate once again. Israel has come to stand, not for the best in Judaism and in Humanity, but for the opposite.
American Jews have always been in the forefront of civil rights and humanitarian causes. Tragically, American Jewish money, from a distance, has pushed Israel into this morally- and strategically-indefensible position.
There is no essential conflict whatsoever between Islam, Judaism and Christianity. Supremacism may come in any flavor, and supremacism in any, is the common enemy of all.
The currently overwhelming monetary and military supremacism of “Jewish” Israel (which is not really serving Judaism) is a perversion from far outside, like the supremacist “Christian” Crusaders, which were not truly Christ-serving.
There is a deeply cynical interest in war profiteering now, as then.
I pray that humanity may survive the disastrously second-rate American leaders’ mentalities, who should never be trusted with matches–much less the nuclear fire (which they cannot even pronounce). Their irresponsible “service” should be utterly disdained by Judaism.
If we do survive, the natural order will be this:
That someday, as in most ages, the area of the Palestine will once again host its numerous peoples, living together and respecting each other.
This should be our vision, far beyond ‘two-state’ schemes:
***The Light of God was on its streets, its gates were open wide,
And all who would might enter, and no one was denied.
No need of moon or star by night, nor sun to light by day.
It was the New Jerusalem, which would not pass away.****
What does it say about the Jews themselves that any criticism of Israel is responded to with such hate and venom and sheer viciousness? So many people are ’sympathetic’ to the “Jewish Cause” but I believe they’ve been duped.
I think that we should start accusing people who support Israel of being ‘Anti-Human’ or ‘Anti-Peace’ or ‘Anti-Justice’. How can ANYONE in good conscience support the racist state of Israel?
Elm, how can anyone in good conscience support the racist, violent, murderous palestinians? Do israelis cheer in the streets when they (accidentally) kill civilians?
Iw, you are right, american jews have always been at the forefront of social justice causes. And we remain so today, 100 fold. YOU are the ones who have abandoned social justice to support a group of people that make George Bush look like Ghandi. JUSTIFY supporting religious fundementalists, JUSTIFY suicide bombings, the glorification of murder, calling jews “apes and pigs”, and teaching this stuff to CHILDREN! If by supporting israel, you say I have turned my back on social justice, then what do YOU do by supporting the palestinians? In their society, like in all arab societies, homosexuals are condemned to death, women are often little more then sexual slaves, and no sort of cultural difference is tolerated. Palestinians ELECTED hamas, a religious fundementalist party that says israel has no right to exist…
YOU are the ones who need to take a look at what you are becoming. The jews are what we have always been, hated for standing up for what’s right. Do you think there weren’t people hating on us for supporting civil rights? Guess who you emulate!
Its totally irrelevant whether or not israel has “military superiority” in the question of social justice, or the question of morality. Ted Bundy wasn’t as well armed as the police who arrested him, Hitler didn’t have as much money as we did, and of course I could go on and on. You substitute things like “how much money they have”, and “how big their army is”, for questions of right and wrong. Wealth does not always determine morality, and sometimes the good guys are simply better off then the bad guys.
By the way, J-street is just a way for us jews to have our cake and eat it too. I hope none of you think we are wavering from israel at all because you’ll have to kill us to do that, and that is not bs.
Kent Shaw, ClassAct, Iwfrey:
Thank you for your eloquence. But put very simply, a Jewish state has no right to exist where is was not only not wanted but also where it was forced upon the current occupants through brutality and murder. The Zionists were terrorists.
Sorry folks, by Israel acting against terrorism with more severe terrorism, it has become a terrorist state itself. Like here, the country seems to be run by psychopaths. If they go down, they’re sure to bring us with them. After all, we are their enablers in all of this, are we not?
Holden: all I can say to you is WOW… where’s your humanity?
Holden spewed: “Elm, how can anyone in good conscience support the racist, violent, murderous palestinians? Do israelis cheer in the streets when they (accidentally) kill civilians?”
Well I would argue that the Palestinians wouldn’t be “racist” and “violent” if the Zionists didn’t steal their land and murder their people. That tends to make people hate you. Go figure. Second thing is yes, I do think Israelis dance and cheer when Palestinians are killed. As far as the Israelis are concerned, the Arabs are nothing but vermin that needs to be exterminated.
Once upon a time, I had empathy for the Jews, but no longer. They’ve become the oppressors, the murderer, the enablers of genocide.
And tell me… Give me one good reason why ANYONE should support Israels Right to Exist… let alone the Palestinians supporting that.
Holden: Finally, there’s nothing Accidental about the Israeli killing of civilians. Anybody with an IQ over 80 would know that firing missles into crowded neighbourhoods is going to kill people. Besides the fact that extrajudicial executions like the one’s Israel are so fond of is against international law… but then again, since when have the Jews ever listened to international Law.
Elm, you’re the one who has become the murderer, or at least the supporter of murderers. I don’t have to justify israels existence anymore then you have to justify your own. They exist because they are a sovergn nation, and they don’t need to justify themselves to you.
I notice in your hate filled diatribe, not a single response to anything I actually said. That’s telling.
Holden, your “comment” is a perfect example of the kind of thing J Street was formed to overcome; a kneejerk, fact-free, absolutist rant intended to intimidate readers. If you were not attempting to intimidate readers why did you end on a threat? Nobody in the comments above “supports the Palestinians” in the manner you describe and you know it because you read the comments. Furthermore the idea that Palestinian civilian deaths, now outnumbering Israeli civilian deaths by the thousands, are “accidental” is patently false by your own standards, however much Israel’s polticial elite may hide behind it. First: “Group punishment” is in fact, the overt policy of the Israeli government and has been since Itzak Rabin declared that he would crush the First Intifada (largely non-violent street protest) with “force, might and blows”. Second: it is considerably worse than disingenuous to assert that helicopter-launched missiles, deployed against whole neighborhoods are “carefully targeted only at armed militants”. Launch an aircraft full of weapons like that into a crowded neighborhood and you know perfectly well what is going to happen. Your enemy’s crimes, brutal, terroristic and ultimately pointless though they may be, are no excuse for yours. And if you lay claim to a long tradition of social justice then you cannot claim ignorance of that universally acknowledged ethic.
After all the temper tantrums are done on both sides, you will have to talk to each other. The Hutus and the Tutsis did it; the white and black South Africans did it; the Protestant and Catholic Irish did it; and you will too. Either that or keep burying your children. If you do insist on continuing to murder each other, the very least you could do would be to leave the rest of us the hell out of it!
The most interesting and creepy comment I have read on all this was from Tom Hayden. In order to get elected to the CA Senate in Santa Monica, he had to, in effect, swear his undying allegiance not to Israel but to Likud. Likud! So he could vote on water policy and tax issues in California! What the hell is this? I think a lot us are bone-tired of having this much Israeli meddling and mayhem in our lives. You want to cling to your uneasy perch in the “promised land”? Take it up with the guy who promised it to you (we haven’t heard much from him lately). The rest of us are running out of patience.
Hey Holden, Israel has the children sign their names on the bombs they plan to drop on the Palestinians. I am very interested in your spin on this one.
Hey Riddim- I see you aren’t bothering wasting your breath (=
PS Holden: This is the firts article I have read for the day and I chose this one because I knew without a doubt you would be spewing your garbage here. Thanks for not disappointing!!!
Jareilly, what threat? What intimidation? Do I not also have freedom of speech?
Israel has the right to defend itself, and must do so using unsavory means. This is not their fault, its the fault of the aggressors that have no wish for peace and say, like elm here, that israel has no right to exist. What exactly are they supposed to do? NOT shoot back? Allow their citizens to be murdered for nothing? Its a crappy choice but the duty of the israeli government is clear: protect your citizens. And that stuff about Tom Hayden having to “pledge allegiance to the likud” is some pretty stupid hyperbole. And you guys say I play loose with the facts.
Israel is standing up against the new barbarism, and you guys continue to stand against israel. Like I said, jews are right where we’ve always been its you that has changed.
Full: Ty, I aim to please. Yes, israeli children sign their names to bombs. Palestinian children learn israeli children are apes and pigs and watch TV shows encouraging them to become martyrs. War sucks that way. If you are at war, and its a war that involves your homeland and not some far off place, you tend to start supporting your military. Those bombs the children sign are part of what keeps arabs from coming to their school and murdering them. And yes, check out the Maarlot Massacre, if you don’t think palestinians would do that.
When will Israel admit to it’s stockpile of 200+ nuclear weapons?
The day they do that, I MIGHT listen to them….maybe. While I eat a ham and cheese sandwich in front of them.
In ALL of the rocket attacks on Israel, over the last couple of decades, the death toll is something like 30 people(Israelis), how ever the death toll of Arabs, from Israeli counter attacks to these “horrible ” rockets is in the 10’s of thousands… so if you do the math it appears Israelis feel that 1 of their people is worth thousands of Arabs..
Oh OH i did it now.. I will be pilloried for being “anti-semitic”, how dare I question God’s “chosen people”.. well I’m sorry,I can not believe any GOD would countenance anything I’ve seen justified by the right wingnuts in Israel and the US… against people whose land they STOLE, quoting some questionable ancient text that claims it was “promised to them”,by GOD his/her self and using that to justify out right genocide…
jim
canada
jim_murray@jdz.ca (not afraid to post email, as I will stand up for what I say, and not hide behind the internet’s almost anonymity.)
Holden’s post:
“Elm, how can anyone in good conscience support the racist, violent, murderous palestinians?”
Reality-check time. Based on statistics from B’Tselem:
Oct. 2000 to Apr.2008, the number of Palestinians killed by Israelis - 4,720
In the same period, the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians - 568
Jim, you’re right. Israel shouldn’t fight back and in fact should simply wait until those rockets hit a school or something, or kill a lot more people. Then, it would be ok for them to defend themselves, right?
What nonesense. The israeli government and the jewish people don’t need to sit back and wait for these killers to be more successful before we fight back. Its that simple.
Holden- you don’t dissapoint that is for sure. Your comments lack any real logic though and eerily echo the thought processes the “Good Germans” used back in the days to justify their own tactics. Your mindless ranting is so refreshing in these posts. It is a sad but true reminder why there are so many problems with the world and how easy it is to “justify” atrocious acts that we humans are oh so quick to commit on one another.
Hey why “your” at it why don’t you check out the following:
Irgun and the Stern Gang
Sabrah and Shatila
USS Liberty
I am actually being sarcastic when asking you to check out the above. The poor readers of these postings are probably not all that interested in more of your Zionist excuses. I on the other hand can already figure out the BS you will come up with to sugar coat the above.
well get the F out of someone else’s property and then no one would bomb you .. it is really simple.. all the wealth of the Israelis could have easily boughten a country, but no they insist “GOD GAVE US THIS PLACE” , and hold up an ancient text written by Jews to confirm it.. pathetic argument
Holden- me again. When you used the word “we” in your response to Jim above I was very curious what you are really doing to defend Israel. Then I had an epiphany. You are paying US tax dollars that go directly to the Welfare State of Israel and are more than doing your part to fund the so called defense.
Oh crap, I just had a second epiphany. I am paying taxes as well that are going for the same purpose. I never thought you and I would have anything in common. Karma truly is a Bitch. Now I am truly depressed on few levels now.
I recently asked an American friend (solidly middle class) why the US always immediately took the side of Israel in any dispute. He responded that the US was: 1. a Christian nation, and 2. the US always honored its treaties. Both statements are false of course.
The US is a nation with a majority of Christians which does not make it a “Christian Nation”. Even if it was a Christian Nation why would that mean that it would always side with a Jewish Nation in disputes. Also, the US does not have such treaties with Israel. Still of course, it was impossible to convince my otherwise clear thinking friend. He is already indoctrinated and refused to consider my points.
I find it kind of funny that Holden has not even responded once to the people’s comments about Isreal stealing Palestinian’s land. If I were in Palestine I would be pretty pissed off at Isreal myself. Then again, like everyone else was saying, Isreal are God’s chosen people so they can kill and steal whatever they want
Holden: Having viewed the pattern of violence in Palestine in Israel, I’ve noticed major upsurge in violence by Palestinians is preceded by an upsurge of Israeli violence against Palestinians, with at least one incident in which all victims were unarmed and including children. I have long since come to the conclusion Israel has control over the amount of violence, and when it wants a Palestinian counterattack, it steps up its own violence to force the Palestinians to respond in kind, if not in number. The Israeli side of the story then dominates coverage in the US MSM.
Israel does not support Palestinian rights to have citizenship in a viable country. From a negotiating standpoint, it is preposterous for Hamas to recognize the government of Israel as legal, since it is certainly not legal in international behavior.
I sincerely hope J Street has a chance of working. When Israel was going crazy in Lebanon in 2006, I remember a poll saying something like 80% of Jews in the US supported Israeli actions. I hope I am wrong, or that it is because most of those 80% were simply not paying attention. Otherwise, J Street has a long uphill battle in the US Jewish community.
Zionism requires rejection of the central beliefs of Judaism, while retaining the trappings.
Well, full, if i ever get to israel, I’ll plant a cedar tree in your name and declare you a “righteous gentile” for your monetary support of israel.
But on a serious note, it does bother me that people who obviously don’t support israel still have to pay taxes to it. There’s a lot I don’t support and it makes my blood boil that I can’t somehow keep my portion of the tax burden from going there. I don’t know the solution to this. Anti israel candidates run for office, and they get plenty of press attention. Ron Paul is actually doing pretty well, but he’s not going to win. If not supporting israel was as big an issue as you guys make it out to be, then the candidates who take that position would be doing a little better. Do what I do and just find lots of reason to write stuff off.
I know a lot about the three things you mentioned. Yes, israel’s founding was violent and involved terrorism against the british. It also involved, after facing massacre after massacre at the hands of the arabs, massacres of the arabs such as Dier Yassin. I don’t justify this stuff, and I don’t see how it can be used as an excuse for violence today anymore then the holocaust can.
I get very upset, though, when people blame israel for Shabila and Shantilla. Those massacres were carried out by Christian Lebanese, and of course blamed on israel for pr purposes. Do you really expect Israel to step in and stop this from happening? When those palestinians would have done the same thing to israelis if they had the chance? Israel’s not going to go out of its way to save its enemies anymore then they are going to go out of their way to save israelis. Every humanitarian gesture israel has ever made has been rebuffed or cynically dismissed. And you wonder why they are done making such gestures.
USS Liberty: Yea, I know, you believe israel deliberately attacked an american ship. I think that’s stupid. We’ll never know the truth. What else can I say about this?
Holden
when one “defends” themselves, it is usually defending against someone TAKING what isn’t theirs..ie: land, liberty, money, etc. How can you say killing people for trying to drive out the thieves from their STOLEN land is defense?
Israel has every right to exist period. but with the moral decency of NOT stealing others property to do so.
A thief is a thief wearing a yamuka(sp?), or any other symbols.
Ya know. Holden has managed to distract all of us from the points of any article he comments on.
If you agree with him, you probably don’t need to answer.
If you don’t like what he has to say, IGNORE him !
My daddy once told me ‘Ignoring is what you do to ignorant ignoramuses.’
If we don’t lower ourselves to his level, we’ll hear less from him thereby helping us all to live longer by keeping our blood pressure down.
@ curmudgeon
I disagree.. ignoring the ignoramuses of the world is WHY we are at the point we’re at.
The stating of fact and verifiable truth is the only way to cure ignorance.. even though the word ignorant doesn’t mean stupid, it means willfully ignoring facts and evidence, which is the basis of the worlds problems
ignore ant persons need to be shown fact and true so they can no longer ignore it
The author wrote “What makes the subject especially sensitive — and keeps many people…from going anywhere near it — is that…it splits the progressive and intellectual community.”
I would write that what makes it especially sensitive is that it forces acknowledgement of the tremendous and disproportionate wealth and influence of Jews in America. 2% of the population is largely in political control of the other 98%. While the success of Jews is not necessarily a bad thing, it is a truth rarely spoken.
Holden spewed: Jim, you’re right. Israel shouldn’t fight back and in fact should simply wait until those rockets hit a school or something, or kill a lot more people. Then, it would be ok for them to defend themselves, right?
I hate to tell you this, but the Israelis are the AGGRESSORS in this fight. How can you possibly justify the dispossession, rape and murder of a whole people?
Yes the “common Jews” have had a rough go of it… but why is that… well, it’s because the powerful Jewish Bankers have had their fingers in every rotten pie in the last 300 years and SOLD their poor relatives down the river in order to create the Zionist state of Israel…
Why were the Jews oppressed in Russia? So they would come to Israel. Who were the Bolsheviks? Well, they were mostly Jews… working for the Rothchilds.
Why were the Jews killed in Germany? Because the Rothschild empire arranged that so the “gullible goyim” would assist in creating Israel.
As far as Israel goes, it could have peace if it wanted it… but it doesn’t. Just go through the historical record of what many Israeli Prime Ministers have said about the Arabs and you’ll see why. Vermin, Eradication, etc… Hell, even the Talmud itself says that Jews are better than everyone else. If you want to see what real hate looks like, look no further than the Zionist settlers living in Hebron… Crazy, evil motherfuckers they are. The Jews could co-exist with the Arabs if they really wanted to, but they don’t. They want it all for themselves because of the whole “God’s chosen people” bullshit. It’s sickening.
You can blather on about evils that were committed 60 years ago, fully ignoring the evils of NOW that YOU are committing. Frankly, I’ve had it up to here (pointing to my eyebrows) with the “poor suffering jews” line of thinking. The Jews aren’t suffering… they’re the ones inflicting the suffering. Disgusting.
Anyways, I can talk to you until I’m blue in the face and you still won’t admit the crimes of the Israelis. But WHY does Israel have a ‘right’ to exist? Does Syria have a right to exist? Does Iran? Iraq? How about the US? No, you don’t see any of those countries bleating on about their “right to exist”… Only the country who’s existence is questionable bleats on and on about it!
Holden vomited up this tidbit: Those bombs the children sign are part of what keeps arabs from coming to their school and murdering them. And yes, check out the Maarlot Massacre, if you don’t think palestinians would do that.
Ah, there’s been MUCH MORE JEWISH Terrorism than Palestinian. In fact, I would call the Palestinians a RESISTANCE Group rather than a terrorist group.
July 2, 1946: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed, killing 91 people.
Menachem Begin, who was later awarded the Nobel Prize for peace, is the same man who planned the destruction of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin. Ex prime minister, Shamir, was originally a member of the Jewish terrorist gang called Irgun, which was headed by none other than Menachem Begin. Shamir later moved over to the even more radical “Stern Gang,” which committed many vicious atrocities.
Shamir himself has defended the various assassinations committed by the Irgun and Stern gangs on the grounds that “it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets.” The selected moral targets in those early days of the founding of the state of Israel included bombing of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin.
April 9, 1948: A combined force of Irgun and Stern Gangs committed a brutal massacre of 260 Arab residents of the village of Deir Yassin. Most of whom were women and children. The Israeli hordes even attacked the dead to satisfy their bestial tendencies. In April, 1954, during Holy Week, and on the eve of Easter, The Christian cemeteries in Haifa were invaded, crosses broken down and trampled under the feet of these miscreants, and the tombs desecrated. The Israeli military conquest, therefore was made against a defenseless people, who had been softened up by such earlier massacres as Deir Yasin (where 250 Arabs; men, women and children were massacred).
The Jew, Weizman, referred to the massacre as this “miraculous simplification of our task,” and Ben Gurion said that “without Deir Yasin there would be no Israel.” Americans are not told that ten percent of the Arabs killed by the Israelis in 1948 were Christian, and that ten percent of the Arab property confiscated belonged to Christians. Nor are they told that Israel’s massacres and military actions forced 100,000 Christians to become refugees.
Accounts by Red Cross and United Nations observers who visited the scene said that the houses were first set on fire and the occupants were shot down as they came out to escape the flames. One pregnant woman had her baby cut out of her stomach with a knife. Reminiscent of the acts committed by their brother Jews in Russia during and after the Bolshevik (Jewish) takeover. The head of the International Red Cross delegation in Palestine, Jacques de Reynier, drove into the village and was met by a detachment of Irgun terrorists. In his report of the massacre the previous night, he wrote: “All of them were young, some even adolescents, men and women armed to the teeth: revolvers, machine-guns, hand-grenades, and knives, most of them still blood-stained. A beautiful young girl with criminal eyes showed me hers (knife) still dripping with blood, she displayed it like a trophy.”
October 14-1 5, 1953 — Under the command of Ariel Sharon, Israeli squads attacked the unarmed Arab village of Qibya in the demilitarized one. Where they blew up 42 houses and killed more than 60 residents who were trapped inside. The details were so gruesome that the U.S. joined in a U.N. condemnation of the Israeli action, and for the first and only time, suspended aid to Israel in reprisal.
Let’s skip ahead a bit shall we:
July 17, 1982: U.S. supplied F-4 and F-5 jets swooped low over Beirut in 4 passes, bombing the densely-populated Fakahani district. Five tall apartment buildings were destroyed, 200 people were killed and 800 wounded. Forty percent of the victims were small children, and one of the survivors was an unborn baby pulled by doctors from the dead mother’s womb. Israel’s then Chief-of-staff Rafael Eitan announced on Israeli Radio that civilian causalities were unimportant and that the Arab causalities suffered as of the July 17 attack did not yet constitute the Israeli “final solution.”
Anyways… you get the idea. I could post much much more but I’m sure that’d piss CommonDreams off and they’d prolly delete it.
I am trying to welcome the concept of J Street despite the cynical thoughts that automatically come.
Is this a smuggly self-serving apparatus, designed to deflect criticism from American Jews, so many of whom are recognized as war-enablers and cheerleaders? Is it an attempt to deny what seems readily apparent: that most American Jews DO view Israel as “sacrosanct”? It is being formed to convince us that liberal Jews really are just that and that their liberality does not end when it comes to Palestine?
These are real questions, but I am hoping to be surprised that this is not the case at all.
For one thing, it is refreshing to hear what I have known all along, that Howard Dean’s campaign was torpedoed because he had the temerity to infer that Palestinians deserved human rights and that it was not The Scream that did him in.
It is encouraging to know that a representaive of the people of the United States may be (in the not to distant future) able to question Israel’s behavior and not be immediately looking for a new career.
It is heartening to know that this group is comprised of professionals who have a real working knowledge of the region and its problems and are clearly convinced that brutality and militarism are not going to solve those problems.
But here’s the real difficulty.
Taking Dean’s downfall for example, it wasn’t just right-wing American Likudnik organizations that did him in. It was the media, an extremely pro-Zionist media that replayed that faux pas endlessly and began a campaign to end his chances.
Will J Street be able to do anything about this? Because Americans get their information from the MSM, and the MSM is under control of American Jews who place Israel above all other things.
Please don’t tell me that is an anti-Semitic comment. It is a fact, whether one is referring to motion pictures, TV news, newspapers, magazines, publishing or even the music business.
Will J Street, the next time the IDF slaughters a few Palestinian families, demand we know the names of the victims or insist we see the mothers and fathers crying? Or will we continue to see this only in the case of Israeli casualties?
Will J Street be able to take the retired generals off the air, whose job is to convince us that we must kill Muslims and Arabs?
Will J Street convince Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert to apply their rapier-sharp wit and sarcasm to Israel, and not just Arabs and Muslims?
Will J Street have high-profile entertainers and politicians in prominent positions, people the average person has heard of? Streisand? Spielberg? Larry King? Woody Allen? Or will all the well-known American Jews continue to look the other way and hold their tongues?
Time will tell. But unless J Street is able to deal with the media, the fact that they may be able to give a donation in virtual secrecy to a candidate will hardly alter the pro-Zionist agenda that is destroying our country.
It is quite depressing, but not surprising to see this topic devolve into a bash Israel screed fest. What is being lost amongst the noise is due acknowledgment of the actual political situation that merited the creation of the J Street project: the polarization of the Israeli body politic and the takeover of the Israel lobby to the point that it is now an auxiliary of the Likud (who’s roots lie in the Irgun & Stern Gang), who not only are not for any sort of negotiated settlement with the Palestinians, but have dreams of a “greater Israel.” Adding to the problem is a Palestinian community who have been badly served by their leadership since the beginning of the British Mandate period & continue to be to this day. Make no mistake, the Palestinians are not the friends of progressives in any way, shape, or form: especially since the emergence of Hamas.
NateW states:
“Make no mistake, the Palestinians are not the friends of progressives in any way, shape, or form: especially since the emergence of Hamas.”
Your point, which is highly questionable and being painted with an enormous brush, being what? Do nothing?
J-Street is Wonderful. Inspiring.
Might the Hateful BabyKillers Pass From The Pages of Time Tonight.
Or Change.
May The NaziIzraelis Be Wiped Off The Map Tonight.
Or Change.
May J Street Produce Change.
DNA testing has proven to be a reliable way to determine who is a criminal and who is not.
A real Jew or real Arab should be able to trace their genetic heritage to the family of Abraham.
All who are not part of the family should leave the Israel/Palestine region.
And does this amazing God care ? I have my doubts and am still waiting for Godot !
And then those who remain can work on resolving the 4000 year old family feud !
OK but how about the American Jews that worked in the WTC that were given the day off??????????????
Now wake up folks
kent shaw April 29th, 2008 12:48 pm
Well said.
And I say: down with Israel, scheiss Israel.
It’s good that young Jews are working against genocide in Darfur, but what about the ongoing American Indian Genocide. Jews have blocked access to public airwaves of American Indian issues, especially genocide. Speak to any activist Indian and they have had the same experience with NPR. The airwaves are blocked to Indians. A recent example is the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma voting to disenfranchise from citizenship anyone who did not have Cherokee Blood, a common practice among most Indian Nations. In fact, most require a 1/4 blood quantum amount for citizenship. Immediately NPR jumped heavily on this story as one of Black exclusion and racism, never telling the entire and true story. Not only are Indians excluded from NPR programming but we are also condemned by it. Jews are heavily represented in NPR and in my opinion are abusing their responsibility by blocking American Indian issues of importance. It seems that Jews do not want to surrender the victimization advantage that the Holocaust provides to them. Even though the American Genocide resulted in the deaths of an estimated one hundred twelve million American Indians, we do not consider ourselves victims but survivors. The establishment of J Street may be a good move but if it results in more resistance to the revelation of the American Indian continuing genocide, then it is a terrible thing. I will give it a chance but I am not hopeful.
opeluboy- my point is not to paint the Palestinians as “sainted martyrs” as pure as the driven snow in this, which they are not by a long shot. Also, if you study the history of the region since the end of the Ottoman Empire, the leadership of the local Arabs has been venal, corrupt, and worse of all for their people, incompetent. They have a special talent for doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and completely failing in Sun-Tzu’s most basic dictum, “Know thy enemy, know thy self.”
good luck - save the conspiracy nut bag stuff for the Arab world bulletin boards where that lie actually has currency.
opeluboy - those of us who are cynical of J-street may be forgiven for waiting to see some action that stands behind their words of ‘peace and security.’
www.j-street.org
Perhaps finding out where they stand on President Carter’s recent trip and whether they support that Israel negotiate with Hamas as a Democratically elected political entity?
But would you blame our Jewish friends at AIPAC for forming a ‘peace’ lobby group when so much of what we see and hear proves Israel is intent on making life for Palestinians hell on earth?
I hope I am wrong but ….
I don’t get it. The policy positions of this organization are vague, even when one examines their so-called policy statements. They say they are going to be less hawkish, but what does this mean? The relevant international law indicates clearly that settlements are illegal, so Israel can’t legally trade settlements for concessions of Palestinians rights (e.g., the right to return) or for further Palestinian land concessions (the Palestinians have already conceded most of what was theirs by right). Past UN security council resolutions also provide clear guidance on Jerusalem (not the capital of Israel, but a jointly administered region) and on the right to return (its a right, and rights can’t be bargained away).
J Street does not even mention international law. If we just let the Palestinians and Israelis bargain from their strengths, without the protection of international law, then the Palestinians will lose at the bargaining table because they have no strengths. Is that what J Street wants? Peace without justice is not going to be very peaceful. Haven’t we learned that?
FullMetal … i had some choice, mouthwatering comments on that brain-dead half-wit … you know who im talking about … but CD ‘moderated’ my comments … like ive said so many times … islamophobia and anti-palestinian viewpoints are tolerated in the name of free speech but the moment you mention israel or the dreaded Z___ist word CD muzzles you.
Does this sound familiar?
The Rabbi tells you to keep politics at the temple door while at the same time handing you a brochure for a trip to Israel sponsored by some Zionist org.
It seems that when you give an opinion you’re treated with contempt, but when the temple fund is low it’s all smiles and shaloms.
The temple sisterhood solicits Israel Bonds to support a regime who has been a major human rights violator yet they lecture you for eating a cheeseburger.
Not all Jews are bad but some have become VERY hypocritcal.
In this thread - I stand corrected about ignoramus treatment and I thank you for all the history reminders, el mysterioso
La’Chaim
The z__ist lobby comes out in full force as always to defend the actions of a terrorist state - Israel. Israeli bombs kill 10 times as many Palestians as Palestinian rockets or suicide attacks, but ofcourse this is tidbit is conveniently swept under the carpet.
Kudos to Elmysterio for bringing up these facts relentlessly but its only a question of time before CD muzzles him/her as well.
Israel is a Master at playing the terrorist card even while bombing civilian neighborhoods, carrying out assassinations around the world, destroying infrastructure in Lebanon and creating a humanitarian nightmare, leveling buildings with innocent men, women, and children, usurping land, controlling water supplies that are only turned on twice a week in the west bank and Gaza for a limited time, building walls, stealing land and housing from Palestinians in their imperial schema, attacking non combatants and making their lives utter hell, to name a few. Then they wonder why children strap bombs to themselves. Apparently, in the grand rationale of the Israeli government, Palestinians are suppose to TAKE it not having any rights to defend themselves. The Israeli government and their war machine is tantamount to the Nazis.
The first thing to confront is that the battleground is not over ‘balancing’ a ‘debate’.
There is nothing to debate.
Israel is a rogue state, run by gangsters, conceived and perpetuated by ethnic cleansing.
Thus the issue is not argument, but power.
J Street obscures the issue.
Follow the money. Who profits by maintaining war in Israel?
I just spent 3 weeks in Israel. My friends tell me they have lost hope for peace, and one of them said “until there is an economic incentive for there to be peace, there will be no peace.”
There can be no peace without justice. This is as true in Israel as it is in the US.
Who owns stock in weapons manufacturing? Hmm let me guess, Bushs, Clintons, Cheneys, etc. A ruling elite is a ruling elite whatever they may call themselves.
Impeach, indict, imprison.
Finally I feel like I dont hate ALL Jews. I knew there must be some good jewish people out there who dont hate Arabs and well anyone else who isnt Jewish. All those hippies from the kibbutz’s couldnt have turned into the zionist scum running israel these days.
I hope you can become a huge movement that can force some change for the better within your religion. Thankyou and I wish you the best of luck.
mikk
It’s important to remember, though confused by the fact that Israel is a theocracy, that Judaism is a religion and Israel is a state. This war is not really about religion, it is about money and power. It’s also important to remember that everyone has their own story, and together all the stories may show most of the whole picture, but no one’s side is all “right” or all “wrong.” It’s also true that anyone, driven to desperation, will take desperate measures.
Compassion and standing up for the underdog are actually tenets of the religion of Judaism. The state of Israel is another story because, like the US and other countries, it is ultimately controlled by corporations run by people whose greed and bloodlust has made them forget their humanity, if they ever knew it at all. Hating anyone is toxic. Making change starts within ourselves and leads to changes in behavior.
The Israelis I know, who are not all Jewish even if their ethnicity is jewish, want peace and justice, and they want it for everyone including themselves. I believe that there are millions of Israelis who do not agree with this war. I say this not because I have spoken with millions but I have met dozens, and they know hundreds, and they know thousands, etc.
Real solidarity for peace and justice means seeing through the propaganda fog and realizing that we are ALL being manipulated by the same corporate media lies, no matter what country we are in, no matter what our politics are.
NATE W:
Look you C**t I lost someone at the Wtc OK, if you can’t handle the truth well …….
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.. By Ilan Pappe, Israeli Historian and one brave man…
Pin prick antagonism to invoke a tiny reply to justify a full on and deadly overwhelming assault has been THE commonest tactic of the IDF from the very beginning. Look it up.
The IOF is proud to say it performs best in assault, not defence… That was until they came up against Hezbollah during the last Lebanon debacle. The IOF, one on one, are apparently no real match for Hezbollah who, having a greater purpose, faith and vision, kicked their collective arses.
That bit about not being so good in defence may be a problem… one day.
Wow. This whole thing is sad. Anti-semitism is rife on common dreams. Elmysterio; you lost your credibility the minute you uttered the name “Rothchilds”. And now you jew-haters are claiming that the jews MADE the nazis kill jews? Oh wow, that one is rich. You neo-nazis are a trip. Please put down your copy the ‘Protocols’.
Hey Progressives, don’t you know that YOU are the dupes? I hate to tell you this…but progressives are on the LEFT of the political spectrum. Libertarians, anarchists and neo-nazis are on the far RIGHT of the spectrum. How did the far right take over the left? THAT is an interesting topic of debate.
I sent this article to one of my best jewish friends who calls himself a proud liberal. He did not read it and sent back a ranting note calling me an anti-Semite and questioning why I was so interested in Jewish affairs. To an otherwise intelligent, dependable and loving liberal friend, the mere mention of this subject is the greatest insult.
Actually anti-semitism was a fairly popular sentiment throughout Europe in the 1800s. During the Great Depression of Germany in the 1920s (which France was to blame for via the Treaty of Versailles - but that is a different topic) the European Jew was virtually the only demographic not affected by it. In other words the Jew represented the upper-class at the time. It is fairly safe to argue that perhaps the Nazis were punishing the upper-class (European Jews) for the starvation of the German people - however misguided this act was.
As a side-note that some here may find interesting. Adolf Hitler foretold the consequences of what would happen if Zionists were ever to control Palestine. What a shame that Hitler was proven correct. Eh Holden?
One more thing Holden, please arrange an appointment with a plastic surgeon as soon as possible.
Even here this issue brings out the blackNwhite in people. As long as everybody takes a side, and stands firmly rooted in the believe that any criticism of their side is nothing short of criminal based on the abhorrent actions of the other side, there will be no progress, no solution, no peace.
Unfortunately right wing/Zionist/Likudnik Jews get get all the MSM coverage. There are liberal Jews out there but our voices are drowned out by the these right wing wackos.
Try these sites for a liberal Jewish point of view:
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/
http://www.circle.org - Workmen’s Circle/Arbeiter Ring
Massud Said: Elmysterio; you lost your credibility the minute you uttered the name “Rothchilds”
Why is that? Is it because the people have been led to believe that the Rothchilds have NOTHING to do with anything? Oh, they’re just innocent banker boys… nothing evil there. Well I tell you, the truth is something much more than that. It’s funny that as soon as someone mentions the Rothchilds, you automatically discard what they’re saying. Sad really. Expand your mind my friend. There’s much more going on that is readily apparent.
Oh and throw the “Anti-semitism” grenade all you want. I don’t care. It’s been thrown around so much at the slightest criticisms of Israel, that it’s lost it’s meaning. Call me Anti-semitic, call me a Jew hater… call me whatever you want, but I am comfortable with my beliefs… Reality is, I don’t hate the Jews. I HATE the zionists. I HATE Jewish superiority. I HATE people who brand people Anti-semitic instead of addressing the criticisms. Pretend that Israel is all pure and innocent but we know the truth! Keep on lying to yourself if you want to.
ezeflyer Said: I sent this article to one of my best jewish friends who calls himself a proud liberal. He did not read it and sent back a ranting note calling me an anti-Semite and questioning why I was so interested in Jewish affairs.
That’s quite sad my friend. I’m sure the ‘liberal Jews’ understand what Israel is doing and are maybe secretly ashamed, therefore, when confronted with the truth, they will just lash out and claim antisemitism. That term is just a shield to hide behind and really has no meaning anymore. Don’t sweat it.
ezeflyer
“I sent this article to one of my best jewish friends who calls himself a proud liberal. He did not read it and sent back a ranting note calling me an anti-Semite and questioning why I was so interested in Jewish affairs. To an otherwise intelligent, dependable and loving liberal friend, the mere mention of this subject is the greatest insult.”
I’m no expert on this, but have some insight on this matter, and personal theories. This is by no means absolute as I have spoke to many and have read and witnessed many progressive Jews in regards to the treatment of the Palestinians. There are many human rights groups in Israel who have pushed legally and succeeded in getting illegal settlements torn down in Palestine.
Here in the States, I see what you described quite a lot. I think one of the reasons is that Jews have a history of being liberals or Democrats because that side of the political spectrum seemed to be more about protecting minorities in this country, which Jews are (were).
The telling thing though is Israel. When you see a Jew full speed ahead liberal for domestic policies and sounding like Cheney in regards to Israel, I believe that shows that they call themselves liberal for their own self preservation reasons. Whereas most liberals and progressives seemingly choose this position for the sense of humanity as a whole, I don’t believe the motive behind it is the same. One believes it philosophically and the other just uses it for their own self interest.
Many seem to look out for their own and follow this primitive tribal mentality, and will back whatever institution that will make them the most protected and prosperous.
I find it illogical in the case of Israel to support the hawks as one can only piss of one’s neighbors for so long before it reaches critical mass and you’ve got one hell of a mess at your door. There’s a sociopathic mentality there that believes that if you cause enough destruction, people will finally cave in or overthrow those resisting, but if your whole family was murdered for nothing more than living in a certain part of the world, your job is gone, your hospital has no electricity, and raw sewage is being pumped into your neighborhood, you don’t have much to lose or live for and not much to lose is giving your life to avenge the death or your innocent loved ones.
This is what Israel is actually creating, scores and scores of people like this.
NateW responds to my previous post with:
“good luck - save the conspiracy nut bag stuff for the Arab world bulletin boards where that lie actually has currency.’
I really wish I knew what conspiracy I was promoting. I’m damned if I can figure it out. In fact, I thought I was being unusually reasonable and tactful. But from the tone of NateW’s response, and his attempts to blame the Palestinians for the situation they find themselves in, I would have to guess he is an ardent Zionist (Jewish supremacist) and has singled out my moderate post out of all these here, some of which are certainly more offensive, for reasons known only to himself.
To HOLDEN:
I was raised Hindu, Buddhist and Christian, of French-Irish stock in all-white American Western cattle country. I therefore do not share your particular prejudices and overwhelms.
Try harder to understand what those of us who do not share your particular prejudice (Israel) can easily follow.
HOLDEN you say, in run-on, equally nominated for most amazing self-righteousness:
(quoting HOLDEN):
Iw, you are right, american jews have always been at the forefront of social justice causes. And we remain so today, 100 fold. YOU are the ones who have abandoned social justice to support a group of people that make George Bush look like Ghandi. JUSTIFY supporting religious fundementalists, JUSTIFY suicide bombings, the glorification of murder, calling jews “apes and pigs”, and teaching this stuff to CHILDREN! If by supporting israel, you say I have turned my back on social justice, then what do YOU do by supporting the palestinians?
(end of HOLDEN quote)
Mr. Holden, sorry. Sad, long experience teaches me: Since Gulf War One, when Saddam made the mistake of lobbing a few stupid unguided SCUDS at Israel which did practically no damage, the American Jews of today are only half-and-half committed to social justice. Hysterical fear and hatred have replaced that commitment.
To repeat my earlier post:
There is also a deep cynical current of war-profiteering in the Bush gang, and in their partnership with Israel.
This miserable spiritual trend is improving once again, and the COMMONDREAMS article is about that.
American Jews have always been my best allies in civil rights since the days of Dr. Martin Luthur King, Jr. I have watched half of them change horribly. Half don’t care at all about American social justice any longer. They join with the Bushie War Profiteer Gang, sacrificing American rights entirely and absolutely (without HABEAS CORPUS no other right has any meaning whatsoever), out of fear, pride, and hypocrisy. Out of a fantasy called “Israel” which they hold higher than anything, which they feel is threatened.
And it’s worth repeating yet a third time:
There is also a deeply cynical current of war-profiteering in the Bush gang, and in their partnership with Israel.
Please read EINSTEIN again, and this time do try to understand what he was talking about. I suppose you don’t like that Einstein should be heard, and probably you feel he should have stuck to science; I hear that always, from people in your position. However, when tested at a rudimentary level, they don’t generally understand even his scientific theories very well. His political and spiritual thinking eludes them even more.
HOLDEN,if Einstein isn’t your style, then perhaps you can follow this takeoff from FORREST GUMP:
“STUPID IS, as STUPID DOES”: including some Jews, and some Christians, and some Muslim.
NAZI IS AS NAZI DOES. ANYONE may be a NAZI…including Adolph Hitler, who had JEWISH BLOOD.
(Just in case you protest that “Jews cannot be Nazis.”)
ANYONE may be a CHRISTIAN, including Adolph Hitler, who said in his 1933 “Speech to the German People” that “My New World Order will be based upon…Christianity.”
Mr. HOLDEN: my DNA is 96 percent the same as a Norwegian wharf rat’s. So is yours. Begone with your hypocrisy of pretense of “CHOSEN PEOPLE”. There is no “CHOSEN PEOPLE” except according to those people themselves. There is no “PROMISED LAND” except according to those who accord it to themselves. Reading the OTHER GUY’S BOOK will give you the OTHER GUY’S PROMISES.
You’d think, at this late, late date, this “CHOSEN PEOPLE” bit was out of style. I was nevertheless subjected last week, to a young spokesman for Judaism in an interfaith dialog panel, describing Jews as the “CHOSEN PEOPLE.”
Well, 79 percent of Harvard graduates think Summer is warmer than Winter, because, they say, “The sun is closer in summer.”
STUPID IS, AS STUPID DOES. And it’s common.
Mr. HOLDEN: To be Jewish is no big deal. To be Christian is no big deal. To be Muslim is no big deal.
But Mr. HOLDEN: it is a very, very big deal to be a SUPREMACIST, and to kill and die for that supremacism. Nothing in your letter stands for anything other than supremacist self-righteousness. You’d be very upset, if we would but substitute the word “MUSLIM” or “CHRISTIAN” for “JEWISH” every time you self-proclaimed your eternal superiority and victimization. You would be quick to see the problem.
One Supremacist is the same as any Supremacist, with a different costume. But you won’t go there. Your reality construct would be threatened.
There were people in the Palestine BEFORE the Hebrews arrived, whether in the time of Moses, or in the 1940s. The Hebrews arrived armed, religionist-supremacist, and aggressive, a book in one hand and a weapon in the other. Just as you complain about regarding Arabs, a people of the same lands, of precisely equal age to the Jews, or even a couple years older, both from the same father Abraham.
Civilization itself is 90,000 years old in that area. Compared to 90,000 years, Judaism is just a recent fad. Christianity and Islam are also fads, even more recent, though larger.
Mr. HOLDEN, while you eternally embrace victimization as your cherished license to hold unassailable self-righteousness and therefore to do hypocritical atrocity, you have done exactly as Einstein feared. Your death camps are real. You kill one hundred Gazans for every Israeli death.
That is the ratio that Hitler used for ‘reprisal’.
Mr. HOLDEN: all people are God’s People. Therefore, all people are your people.
Mr. HOLDEN: Your Jewish traumas are real, and your challenge is to not perpetrate those same traumas upon following peoples. Your challenge is not to be a slave link in the clanking chain of abuse, whether as an exploited child who classically becomes an exploiter of other children, or as a victim of Holocaust who eventually in your own cycle of opportune time, also builds death camps, and demonizes a conveniently dusky Middle-Eastern population.
Mr. HOLDEN: your challenge is to prevent the horror that reached the Jews, from ever reaching any other humans. You’re dragging and serving Holocaust to Holocaust in your letter above. Supremacists are all the same under the Uniform, in the mouth of vultures, and in the sight of God.
The truth is, by that mentality you are destroying the essential spirituality of Judaism, as Einstein warned you,in words you have thus far disdained. You are also destroying American liberty, and also putting Israel into moral and physical indefensibility. Do waken. Please. We need you.
opgluboy:
These little Zeos are programmed just like the Hitler youth movement but much worse.
Opgluboy do you notice NUT or Nate doesn’t post on any other story? I guess he says the 6 JEWS that were standing on top a white van holding lighters toward the WTC as it burned and fell didn’t happen? They were arrested and the call comes in and told to let them go no charges.
Uhhh, once again, Yes! J-Street.
Eviscerate AIPAC!
Shalom.
Another sign of the thankfully changing times..
This letter was published recently…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/30/israelandthepalestinians/print
Guess these caring committed English people of the Jewish faith all hate themselves??
The Tide IS turning.. We need to keep up the pressure and continue to call for justice for all.
It must drive the Zionists and their Orc mercenaries frothing mad.. So close but now so far.. The Prize was almost in their grip but it looks like it is slipping away.. All that death and destruction, all those lies, all that deceit, All that money and it was all for nothing..
And an article from The Independent..
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-israel-is-suppressing-a-secret-it-must-face-816661.html