You say, "most of you" ~DSS~.

And what about you? ___ Do your posts amount to something?

It's astounding to see how much wasted time most of you put into writing pointless and egocentric comments on this forum, instead of using your words and time to create something that might have the potential to amount to something. It's so childish.

It doesn't seem to matter who you VOTE for.

If the company you work for supports these people, quit working for them. If the stores you buy stuff from support these people, stop buying it from them. If you sell stuff to people who are supporting them, stop selling it to them. If you don't KNOW who you work for, or who provides the stuff you buy, or who buys the stuff you produce, you are almost certainly supporting them.

Until we quit giving them our money (and this includes all the lawyers and judges who pretend their arbitrary unconstitutional pronouncements are in fact the law of the land), we ARE SUPPORTING THEM AND THEIR POLICIES, and ought to be held responsible for it.

And it won't terribly surprise me if, in ten years or so, the UN, led by Europe, China, or South America, holds us responsible for supporting it. Nor will it surprise me if they abandon us the way we've abandoned Africa.

Can people change for the worse? Did Nancy Pelosi?

History103: http://www.michaelparenti.org/RationalFascism.html

Before assuming the position, I'd say, "yes."

A 'very' good trooper maybe?

KEM: The coming depression has been planned for some time. Hurricane Katrina, which was unexpected, gave them the opportunity to feel the public sentiment when they gave the finger to the black folk and the poor whites.

Where was the Congressional outrage from the Democrats? Republicans aren't mentioned because they are just plain gangsters. We don't expect anything good coming from them.

And now with Pelosi's funding...something's real fishy.

Canardtahiti,

Thanks. Michael C. Ruppert wrote about the Iranian oil bourse several years ago when it was still in the planning stage. I didn't know the French set it up. Viva La France! I hope you are correct about Europe, including Russia, standing by Iran. The "Bear" saw the results of the Yeltzin/Soros privatization schemes. They know the score.

Give my regards to your students.

And we will have our depression. It's gonna be interesting, but very deadly and tragic.

Obama just endorsed Betrayus.

Peaceman,

It's the French who helped Iran set up its new euro-based oil bourse (stock market) in Tehran. That's a direct challenge to cheney's petro-dollar hegemony. Europe will stand by Iran.

canardtahiti,

Either that or blackmail. They may have something scandalous on their family members. Before Pelosi became House Speaker, she was a good trooper, so to speak.

But will any country come to Iran's defense with military support, both logistical and manpower to defeat MANIACAL MAN'S armed forces or will the world sit back and watch as they do in the Iraqi situation?

Look, it's very simple:

If McInsane does not make it into the WH by hook or by crook, so he can BLANKET PARDON the whole mess of bushcheney war pigs, then nothing but martial law will save their fascist asses.

They threatened Pelosi and the whole Dem Congress with something IMMENSELY unpleasant (read: deadly) -- just to keep impeachment permanently OFF the table.

IMAGINE what additional hell-on-earth scenario they are capable of creating to ensure that no indictments/war crimes trials against them EVER materialize in the USA?

Like I said, it's very simple. Simple enough to make one puke.

Good God, the U.S. has no business being in Iraq in the first place. Talk about hypocrisy!! As Iran is a next-door neighbor to Iraq, I'd say Iran has more business being there than the U.S. does.

Let's face it: The war-profiteering leaders of the U.S. will make up any lie-excuse to attack a weaker country whose resources it covets.

Things haven't changed since the people came from England hundreds of years ago with superior weaponry and slaughtered the original inhabitants of this country in order to take over the entire country.

Do you really think these evil twins are going to sit quietly until January and then just wave goodbye?

Yeah, right...

The likelihood of such an attack has been troubling me for months.
A couple of things not mentioned by the author: inspite of the US declaration of financial war on Iran, there is an Iranian bank doing very good and very brisk business in the heart of Baghdad...our Iraqi friends are none too concerned about Iran....nor are any of Iran's neighbors, for that matter. How will we punish Iraq by doing business with the Iranians? Maybe we'll pull out? Naw, we'll stay and stay.
Secondly, after Cheney's mideast tour this year, a Jerusalem news writer said that he believed the US would attack Iran before October, 2008.
I've never wanted more to be wrong about something than I am about this dread that the criminals in charge of our gov't will do whatever they believe is required to maintain their power.

So was Baghdad.

Obama has just said he will support Gen. Petraeus for command of CENTCOM.

And Tehran -was- such a nice city. Filled with centuries of history...

Hi Peaceman, Please tell Cindy hello and best wished for me and that she is in our thoughs every day. ___ She knows who I am.

iowablackbird: Two compliments in one day! I'm elated by your response. Honestly. Your comments are dear to me and energize my spirit for the the peace and justice movement.

I've heard Jack Heyman speak before and remember the 2003 incident. Jack is dynamic. I think Common Dreams printed one of his articles from the San Francisco Chronicle about a year or two ago. In one of the many San Francisco marches I've been to over the years, I (with my Teamster cap and shirt) and another friend of mine marched with Clarence and the longies. I told my friend- "this is the real Clarence Thomas, not the criminal protector on the Supreme Court." Clarence was laughing. He's been on kpfa several times as well as Amy Goodman's Democracy Now! program.

I am scheduled to work this coming Thursday and told the boss I'm not coming in and why not. They know better than to ask me twice. I'll have a full car going up to "the City" on Mayday and will be speaking to those two gentlemen, plus Cindy Sheenhan, Cynthia McKinney, and everyone else who's ear I can bend. I even talk to the SFPD along the route during a pause.

But kidding aside, I'm convinced, and ALWAYS open to suggestions, but after all that has been said and done since our first march (which was all over the planet-you remember) the war-mongers and the war profiteers have deaf ears. One day marches (usually on a weekend) have not stopped this administration one iota. This is why the work stoppage has got to happen, all over the country, leading to the G S. When I spelled the "S" word, it wasn't a typo, but a recommendation from one of our friends on Common Dreams. On the "owner-operator trucker's strike" last month, I wrote a long commentary on my CD post and it was censored. You may have read others in an exchange with me. That's ancient history. What counts is here and now.

Amen to your Central American story. What the US has done in that hemisphere is unpardonable! You are absolutely right! Authoritarian governments do not relinquish power. The people have to assert themselves and unite for the common good.

The White Rose in Germany suffered under the nazis, as well as "free-thinkers", trade-unionists, and anyone, no matter what your bloodlines were if you opposed that dictatorship. A German female friend of mine who was a little girl during WW2 told me about her Mother, (I met her parents in the US) who refused to salute Hitler as the motorcade drove by. When a Gestapo cop asked her why she was "disrespectful" of the Fuher, she told him Hitler was a fool. The big bad cop slapped her face.

Anyway, thank you so much, iowablackbird, and if you can donate to kpfa, they'd appreciate it.

peaceman,

thank you for the link (living room @ kpfa.org.),that was an amazing interview directly related to this conversation. i listened to the program once last night and again this morning.

http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=25970

eric klein interviewing ILWU leaders jack heyman and clarence thomas and immigrant rights activists jessica sanchez and manual de paz.

now i understand why you were hyper aware of the computer cesoring the term generalstryke.

international longshoreman working in conjunction w/ community groups and pacifists shutting down the west coast ports on mayday, in opposition to war.

the ILWU leaders said the impact of the action will be determined by the rank and file workers who voted for the resolution, a grassroots effort. i completely agree w/ clarence thomas' comment that for change to be effective it has to manifest itself in the work place. workers must resist.

it will be interesting to see if the rank and file will hold together in tacoma/seattle and long beach. it also will be interesting to see if non union port truckers on the east coast participate. it's encouraging (like the folks in WA state who were arrested obstructing military vehicles/supplies being offloaded in olympia/tacoma).

it also will be interesting to see how the police respond to the demonstrations in SF and oakland. jack heyman's description of being pulled out of his car and beaten on the streets of oakland in 2003 was telling.

the port shut down as pedagogical tool/precursor for a GS,
the torch bearers of change - longshoreman (possibly, a logical angle -the unions-).

i was encouraged by the recent spontaneous organization of independent truckers, upset over fuel prices, using their own affinity groups and communication systems to get the word out to slow down work and block major US transport arteries - wow, that's amazing.

it indicates there are unseen allies throughout the general population. signs of hope. as many in the resistance in germany, france and poland, would not have been identified as resisters before the nazi occupation - a death of a family member, a witness of a rendition/illegal arrest, a witness of a neighbor being evicted, dictates a persons willingness to take risks and resist.

the american population has to suffer or have awareness of the suffering imposed on others, before political consciousness evolves (high fuel prices - work slowdown, food shortages -riots in haiti, egypt) into action.

which brings this full circle, earlier i posted the comment that the techniques refined in el salvadore/guatemala would come home to roost. manuel de paz's (the representative from the east bay sanctuary in oakland on the kpfa interview) tale of emigrating to the US from el salvador - after he was tortured, his sister raped, three brothers killed - 21 of his family members killed - is a direct consequence of our governments actions. it illustrates how authoritarian governments do not willingly relinquish power. events of this magnitude in people's lives motivate people to help the victims and resist empire everywhere. may we find the courage....

peaceman, thank you again for the link. i'll encourage my younger sibling to participate at the demo in SF, i'll follow the commentary closely and i look forward to your impressions of the action after the fact..

ya basta, happy mayday.

Many times while reading a book, I've stopped and wondered why on Earth, there have been so many insane world leaders and their people didn't do anything about it. Rulers like Nero, Caligula, Vlad the Impaler, Henry the Eigth, Stalin, Hitler, Poppa Doc, Saddam and so many, many others.

Now here we are with our own "appointed" by the court, "King George" and I'm beginning to grasp it all. It's the people who are insane, ___ they don't get pissed until they're out of food and starving.

Purvis Ames: The Iranians have been preparing for this sadistic, war-like nations' attack ever since smirk was selected by the court. They are trying to live and let live but are demonized daily by the imperialists in the US and the Israeli Zionists wanting Gentiles doing the dirty work for them. What are Iranians or people in any other country supposed to do if the United States launches an attack? Just sit there and play pattycakes?

We invaded Iraq, killing, maiming, torturing, kidnaping, raping and looting a country on the big lie of the REPUBLICRATS. Now we occupy THEIR country and have the nerve to say the Iranians are meddling by supporting the Iraqi Resistance?

Got to go. I'm upsetting myself again.

You know when I was flying out of Utapoa in Thailand during the Vietnam war, a war the French had warned us to not get into, we had so many B-52s there we had to launch three of them every fifteen minutes, 24/7, so there was enough parking spots for the ones returning. Our C-130 drone carrying aircraft only flew one flight a day, "Buffalo Hunter" was our call.

Those "Buffs", (we'd nick-namd them), could carry 108__ 500 or 750 pound bombs and were actually so accurate, we used them for very close air support for the Marines holding their outpost base at Khe Sahn. Of all of the weapons we used in Vietnam, including the Battleship New Jersey, which fired truck sized shells, the North Vietnamese said they feared the B-52 raids the most. Boy, I wonder how they would have felt if we'd been tossing nukes at them?

Of Course as history proved, The French were wrong. Just look at what we accomplished so well in Vietnam. We finally managed to have that country united and they live in peace now. Well, once in awhile, some little kid foolishly steps on, or picks up an old cluster bomb and a few thousand babies are born with serious deformities caused by the ever present agent Orange we sprayed all over their land. All in all, it was a pretty good war, and there were no losers, we just packed up and left. So the French don't konw everything.

PNAC a weapons cache? newly manufactured? OMG!!! In the WSJ!!!

1.Go to your local Smith&Wesson, Colt, Winchester, Remington, Daisy storehouses, you'll find lots of stored, freshly-manufactured weapons. There are probably a few "caches" in your neighbourhood - should Iran bomb it?
2. Were the "weapons" specified as to type? Or was that left deliberately vague? Because it's a lie? Remember that little contretemps in the Straits of Hormuz a few months ago? That was a lie, too - in fact the US ships were aggressively buzzing the local coast guard in their little motorboats. The Iranians tried to communicate with the the US ship, get their radio ID number, but the US ship did not cooperate.
3.Source??? where did the WSJ get the story? Oh, do I smell a Chalabi?
4. I'll bet these weapons were in some tractor trailer rig on a dusty road somewhere, like the moving "chemical lab", after no WMDs were found, right?
5. Sadly, Iran, being a sovereign nation, has the same right to make all the weapons it wants as every other sovereign nation. Idiotic, but true.
6. Where did the story claim these were found? Who found them?

This is just like the WMD-lab-in-a-truck story or that Rupert Murdoch story about people in Iran being forced to wear coloured badges according to their religious affiliation - that was a colossal lie, too. Not as colossal as the WMD lie, but be wary of lies - the biggest weapon of this junta. After the sub-prime loan meltdown and the licensed pyramid schemes Wall Street has been playing on Americans, can we still believe anything WS or WSJ says?

Excellent observations there ~PURVIS AMES~ you may be spot on correct on that, ____ let's all hope so.

Of course with our B-2 and B-52H bomber fleets sitting in Guam and Deigo Garcia, prepared for some sort of future action, with three on alert status aircraft carrier groups and atomic cruise missile carrying atomic subs prowling Iran's waters, they may have "some" concerns.

Those concerns hidden behind sober faces and talk, with the knowledge that our insane president and his boss and brain Cheney attacked Iraq for no fair reason and utterly devistated that country. The Iranians may have a few concerns and are diplomatically attempting to calm others down before they do something so damnned stupid it boggles the mind.

Then too, they may have read these C/D posts and realized they most likely will be hit with hundreds of nuclear bombs on a first strike, if the "more informed" bloggers here are correct.

Of course I shouldn't have posted this because my mommy went to chuch and I'm home alone playing with her computer. ___ Silly, foolish old me.

I told you!

roncypert: An astute observation. There are more of us than there are of them. "Actions speak louder than words."
Two years ago, I told a friend of mine about a new slogan for the peace and justice movement. The seven magic words. "TAKE TO THE STREETS, WITHHOLD YOUR LABOR." (peacefully) He thought about it for three seconds, and said, "If the public acted on it, we'd win."

About four years ago, I had the honor of meeting Michael Parenti at a lecture. I'll never forget him saying two things (among the many). The ruling class want to turn the clock back a hundred years and we all know enough US and World History. Everything we have today that is taken for granted was hard-fought for with people being murdered, beaten up, jailed, fired from their jobs, and some foreign-born deported. Nothing was given to the public without a fight. (my words describing his statement)

All we can do is educate, agitate, and organize the resistance in opposing tyranny. I don't know what else to say. I'm as frustrated as the rest of you.

Canardtahiti; An international treasure? Are you serious? Coming from Europeans who are better educated and knowledgable on current events than most of my fellow Americans IS a compliment. Better minds writing on Common Dreams deserve the praise. But give them my regards. (I may just start learning the language.)

History102: The Vatican (like all capitalists) were worried about the rising tide of egalitarian thought throughout Europe. The anarchists (communalists), the socialists, and the communists, and the labor unions, all who were perceived as the biggest threat to the ruling class in Europe. After the Russian Revolution, the Church was concerned. The Pope and his merry band of Cardinals instructed the "nuncio" to Nazi Germany to get German Catholics to support "Mustache Pete" because he despised these groups and quietly told the Vatican he would support the Catholic Church (the Protestants aren't any better-maybe a little better) for his support. The great Joseph McCabe wrote extensively on this subject.

We'll hear from KEM and the hatchet will be buried.
Peace and Harmony, everybody

Yeah ~Canardtahiti~ Gooooood morning to you. I guess it was the word "NAIVE" and what it actually means that bothered me. If you had just said that my opinions in regards to the use of possible weapon types was "childishly foolish" and I displayed a "foolish lack of worldly wisdom", I probalbly would have just ignored the out of the blue and uncecessay insults.

I realize now that I should have accepted your astute and obviously well informed insider intelligence observations about the issue and of course how silly I so obviously was to post such rubbish as I so "artlessly" did.

Thank you for clarifing that you for some still unknown reason to me, stating that __I was "NAIVE" ___ was not really directed to me. I'll go ask my mommy what that means. Sorry for the misunderstanding, __ you know, the language barrier and all.

"Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini said it is "unlikely" that US forces embroiled in Iraq and Afghanistan would be able to invade a new country, adding it would have unpleasant consequences for the region and the world.

"Speaking at a weekly news conference, Al Hosseini said: "We think it would be unlikely the Americans would take the decision to get themselves into a new fiasco, the consequences of which they themselves have acknowledged would be painful for the region and the world."

This is straight from the Gulf News out of Dubai. Apparently the people in the region aren't too worried about the hysterical Bush-Cheney-Israeli saber rattling.

So has anyone read/heard the internet/beltway chatter on the timeframe for a possible attack?

Or are we too top secret for that here in our discussion board?

Has this been leaked to the press yet? - Seymour Hirsch (nytimes) always seems to be one step ahead of the media.

...another MERCI BEAUCOUP to the ever-présent Namasté, likewise to SiouxRose...you are too many to mention and to gratefully acknowledge.

big {{{{{HUGS}}}}} to KEM PATRICK, from the frenchies and franco-americans of Biarritz, Bayonne and Hossegore...WE ARE NOT YOUR ENNEMY. Sorry to have seriously ruffled your yankee feathers. Sophists? Nope -- but we DO eat lots of garlic (intentional non-sequitor).

We are rooting for y'all, and nobody is gloating over here; we are in this earthly life-boat together, knowing very well what you are struggling with -- and it ain't over yet.

France has been there...millions upon millions of OUR fellow french citizens actively collaborated with Nazi barbarism. Even the hierarchy of the french Catholic church actively supported collaboration. To this day it is our national shame and our inherited national crime.

DO NOT LET SUCH COLLABORATION WITH PSYCOPATHIC WAR CRIMINELS AND NAZI-type NIHILISTS BECOME AS WELL YOUR SHAME AND YOUR CRIME, IN YOUR NAME, America.

P.S.

To Cosmobilly: your response to KEM is exquisite in its logic and deeply moving every step of the way, culminating in words of wisdom we will remember:

"Instead of seeking the threads of truth we avoid and even destroy the fabric it weaves." Bravo and Merci !

To Peaceman: you are an (inter)national treasure, one of our favorites here in the Pyrenees. Always an original and constructive approach, Merci.

GOOD MORNING AMERICA!!! And have a lovely Sunday, especially KEM PATRICK.

As always, iowablackbird: you have made my day (already). Your words and sensibility are unmatched on this forum and everywhere else. What a gift, what a joy to read you. I regularly print out your posts and will use them in my advanced English seminars. My students are professionals who interact constantly with Americans. They really seek to understand HOW ON EARTH AMERICA COULD HAVE BECOME THE WORLD THREAT IT IS today, a threat to ALL OF US.

Yes Americans -- we read you daily, we seek to understand your struggle and your dilemma, we discuss and debate your positions -- whether naive or profound.

KEM PATRICK, you over-reacted and are too full of yourself. Just my opinion. I was referring to your position as stated, I was not attacking your person, for chrissake.

We weep for the American dream gone bad. We weep for the rise and fall of a potentially-great civilization, once again subverted by the powers of darkness.

I'll admit that the odds are great, but we haven't lost yet. We very well may lose, but it isn't a done deal yet. However, if we just crawl into a corner, huddle into a little ball and bemoan the unfairness of our situation, we damn sure will lose.

Easy, KEM, easy. Take it all with a grain of salt. Remember the 'GOLDEN RULE?' Here's the 'SILVER RULE'...live and let live. Sometimes we are misunderstood and sometimes we misconstrue another's reasoning or viewpoint on a particular item. This is why communication is paramount in resolving the difference of opinion. Granted, some situations are never resolved and fester.

I've been called more names than Carter got liver pills in my lifetime and after so many years not much fazes me anymore. I let them win, KEM, but maintain my convictions in the silence of my inner kingdom. Speaking of the British-"To thine own self be true." Bill knew!

The main thing is to defeat these fascist/imperialists destroying OUR country: courtesey of the two party duopoly. Now, before I get you going, bear in mind the heated exchanges between ourselves and other CDer's before the holidays over Kucinich/Edwards/Paul/Clinton/Obama/Nader et al? More verbal fireworks ignited between the entire CD choir for several months than Fourth of July celebrations with the real mccoy. We still maintained comraderie and respect for one another in spite of our individual beliefs that our candidate was the most electable. It was a Common Dreams free-for-all. Hey, my temper flares too. What am I saying anyway? True to form, the Peacekid is all over the place. (warm sour beer sounds good at the moment.)

History101: I love France, the French people (screw Rumsfeld), the vin, the pastries, and if I could learn the language I wouldn't mind spending the rest of my days there. The French Resistance played a part, but it was the Red Army who defeated the German Army. We never gave them credit, KEM. Hey, everybody did their part in defeating the "superman," but we turned on the Russians, made them the enemy and started the arms race.

As I said before, keep writing. I'll back you up. We need to defeat the regime in power before they start WW3, with or without nukes.
Have a good evening.

thing is, americans aren't going to do anything about any of this. that's the unfortunate, truly sad and pitiful reality of it all. not enough people care. all of the americans that go to work every day, pay their bills and taxes, buy groceries from corporate supermarkets, watch t.v. and play video games, hang out with friends on the weekend and get smashed, smoke grass and philosophize, have happy talks about traveling around the world and owning their own homes with their own gardens, and blah, blah, blah.

all of those people, noting that they are not "bad" people, are essentially, fundamentally, the most basic and profound reason that the world will continue to suffer such a horrible present and even more horrific future.

americans have been very, very successfully conditioned to allow themselves to indirectly kill and destroy people and nature. is it not a most extraordinary phenomena that the american public ceases to demonstrate any awareness or understanding of their participation in what happens outside of america?

nothing will happen.
no nation-wide strike will happen.
no revolution.
nothing.

we, as in those of us how oppose war and murder and genocide and all of these things, have lost. but perhaps worse yet, we fail to realize we have lost, which is pathetically evident by our continued fashion of living, of outfitting our cars with bumperstickers about how war must end, so beautifully and utterly unintelligently placed above exhaust pipes.

we have protests and petitions and rallies with musicians.
we have blah, blah, blah.
and can't admit that what we have and what we do, while not meaning nothing and being completely pointless, doesn't come close, not even close, to being smart enough or powerful enough to keep a world war from happening.

to stomach that, to recognize that the effort against, say, a war with iran, is far to weak to make a difference, and will not amoung to anything, is not tasty, but putrid and embarassing.

look at what is happening.
my words here mean nothing.
neither do yours.
neither does anything in any newspaper or on any television channel.

how many years?
how many people dead?
how much sufferring?

has any of it slowed down?
has it stopped?
what's been solved?
what's been done?

is it getting worse or better?

america was hypnotized into creating what will be for itself and the world a horrible future. and we have placed ourselves, very tightly, in a position from which we must endure that future, not a brighter or more peaceful future, but an ugly, deadly, truly sad one.

i am just an average person.
a student, an employee, someone who used to protest and try to organize letter writing meetings.

honestly, the government is not to blame.
the corporations are not to blame.
the corrupt international organizations either.

it's us.

Hi ~Peaceman~ __ I do appreciate the kind words. That type of bull is never necessary. Where do they come from?

Why do some wish to jump on my case and write lessons to me, when another threw the first stone and I replied? Saying someone is NAIVE for no reason whatsoever is an insult. I'm don't care to be classified by anyone here as a foolish child and one who offers foolish opinions on world affairs, especially when what I posted is not foolish at all. I never dreampt any would take umbridge with that.

Don't start some crap with me and I won't reply to it. That's easy enough to understand. I also am aware of what sophists are. It began in Greece, wise teachers were called sophists. When a person uses sophism they should be wise, and not as Webster's college edition also states, "a person who argues using fallaceious reasoning, intended to decieve, with clever specious arguments." There are wise sophists and snotty sophists. I was not sayng she was wise.

She also stated many of us bloggers here were "naive" and let us know that we "naive" Americns think the French are cowards or some such crap. Well, if it hadn't been for the French, we'd have lost the Revolutionary War and George Washington and the Continental Congress would have been hung by their necks. We'd still have a King, but it wouldn't be King Bush.

Then the British would have shipped their Hessian Blackwater troops back to Germany and now we'd be drinking warm sour beer, eating bully beef and rotten kidney pies, driving on the wrong side of the roads and Fighting France over the mid-west and Canada. __ So we owe the French a lot.___ Had it not been for the French Resistance personnel, we may have lost WW-2, or at the very least lost thousands of more troops. Oh BTW, don't anyone try to look up those big words I wrote when I replied to the rude sophist, ____ I made em up.

iowablackbird:
So sorry. I meant to compliment you on your first post at 2;46pm...very good!
Your latest post is super, well said, and with an ego ten times that of KEM, I thank you for your kind words and a brief statement about the Sophists. Some other time, blackbird.

Before I forget, next Thursday, May 1st. the ILWU (longshore union) will shut down all 26 ports on the west coast for one day as a protest against our "war?" in Iraq. All working people across the nation,union, non-union, blue-collar, white-collar, no-collar may join by taking off of work that day. Peaceful concerted resistance. If you have the time and audio streaming, go to www.kpfa.org and click on 'programs.' Scroll down to 'Living Room' and click on 'past shows'. Click on Apr 24,08 and listen to the two longies for thirty minutes. If you do listen, iowablackbird, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the subject if it isn't asking too much.

Can you imagine even ten million workers joining this event? And the next one with more folks until the momentum reaches its zenith and the politburo in D.C. decide it's really time to bring ALL the troops back here, in the good ol' USA. Call it a peaceful insurrection or whatever. From the President on down, everyone of these politicians are accountable to WE THE PEOPLE! Wake up, fellow citizens and smell the coffee!

KEM-stay out of trouble. I gotta get off the computer for awhile. They said continue making the case for that guy blogging on Common Dreams articles and I'll qualify as a defense attorney. Keep writing my friend, you're 73 years YOUNG and have much to say. PAX

i just wanted to say thank you to everyone who contributed comments on this thread.

i do wish people could disassociate their emotive feelings from political discourse. if a person says your position is naive, it's not a personal attack it's a comment about a position. words can only hurt you if you allow them to, if the person has too much invested in their words. our words are instructive, they help us comprehend our world, they allow us to express ourselves. a sense of humor is helpful.

---------------------------------

KEM PATRICK April 25th, 2008 9:43 pm,

Kem, i agree w/ your point. i doubt that bush will initially use nuclear weapons, however israel can and unaligned islamic terrorists can; and bush has said he would use tactical nukes if the military felt they needed to.

my concern, is a conventional bombing campaign (or ground campaign) in iran could quickly escalate to a limited nuclear war, just the proximity of the other nuclear players increases the chances (US,russia, china, pakistan, india, israel). bush/cheney will go for it (like they stole the 2000 election)...

so your correct it probably wouldn't start w/ tactical nukes, but i believe it would escalate quickly and your survival scenarios would manifest

also there's a great article on sophistry (the art of being a sophists) at wikipedia, sophistry has a rich history and has been redefined as a pejorative term.
check it out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry

"Even with the sudden "disappearance" of the sophists (there are speculations that secret societies were created, or that they migrated to the East, where they helped in the creation and propagation of many religions), the persecutions continued, but in a written manner, since any reference written about the sophists were made in a very negative approach. These "facts" that were copied without analysis by many modern philosophers occurred without reflexion, and continued to portray the sophists as enemies of philosophy.

Presently, there is a historical revision tendency about the sophists role, that are now understood as an "ultra-democrat" group in a Greek age where democracy was applicable to politics, but not necessarily to ideas.

In the modern times, the acceptance of the different points of view (religion, way of life, etc), is the founding stone of any democracy."

------------------------------------

canardtahiti,

"No, only massiveworkstoppages/spontaneous sit-downstrikes andgeneralstrikes
offer any hope for overturning this fascist regime, and I doubt americans have the guts for that."

your comments about oppressive governments and about american consciousness were poignantly accurate.

------------------------------------
peaceman,

11:59 pm -

"As a commited pacifist, I prefer the friendly way. The coordinated unity of working people standing together for the common good. In my experience and what I have read, the quickest path would be a gentle nationwide stryke of the workforce. Its very effective!"

peaceman i wish the american public would participate in such an endeavor, i believe that absent a nuclear strike on a US city or 2 (as japan suffered from nuclear attacks) this american public will not respond. believe me i want impeachment and withdrawl of US troops from the ME now, i just can't visualize it happening.

7:03 pm

good points...
----------------------------------------

cosmobilly April 26th, 2008 6:13 pm,

"we look for and find what we share in common, to seek how we can come together and be part of the solution, or we are indeed part of the problem. Those thinking they are more knowledgeable or more intelligent, and asking others to prove every point in detail only diminish the common dream."

i agree..........

...peace...

Hi ~JDRAGON~ you say only DEMS are going on about going to war with Iran. Perhaps you should read the article. I do believe it's Bush and Cheney who are causing the problem and their hopeful replacement is singing "Bomb Bomb Iran" and they are all Repubs. ___ Maybe you didn't know that?

You're obviously 'naive' ~Peaceman~.

Haa haaa . Kidding you of course. I don't have a grudge with the sophist, I was just replying to HER uncalled for insults.

I see only Dems going on about going to war with Iran. What is the matter is not America fighting on two fronts enought for you.

Wow! Stay offf the computer for awhile and no telling what subjects come up. Forgive me for getting involved but as an agitated (not by any of you) activist, I feel obligated to intervene in the discussion between my buddy KEM and (I don't know your gender) CANARDTAHITI. I took a few courses in Conflict Resolution in the military and as a civillian (failing twice with unsatisfactory grades) and I'll try to put the invaluable instruction to good use.

Aside from the personal disagreements, you both have valid points as to what the Bush/Cheney group may or may not do, regarding Iran. All we can do is speculate for the time being. Canardtahiti, with due respect to you, we "regulars" on Common Dreams tend to take KEM's assessments about all things "nuclear" seriously, because he has a fairly good grasp on this subject. And he could be wrong! And so could you! And even me! In my never humble opinion, ad hominem is counter productive and weakens the progressive movement. You two are not the bad guys. PLEASE, pretty please with ketchup on it (remember that one?) make an effort to denounce the real culprits, which this article is about, rather than each other.

I'm just playing referee, here. You can tell me to go pound salt. No problem. I also have "been around the block" a few times. Peace and Harmony and Good Health to the Both of You. Oh...and Understanding.

My first post was at 6.42 pm Cosmobilly, tell me what it was that I posted that you found to be disturbing?

You asked me a question, so I'll reply to the best of my ability. My common dream is, that we humans finally realize, those imaginary lines drawn on maps do not really exist and that we are all the same.

Within that dream I dream that we humans on our only world ALL get together, lay down our swords and fight a war against global warming and attempt to prevent the Arctic's methane gas from eradicating all of us and our children.

Here's a two minute read on the most serious issue facing mankind ~COSMOBILLY~ which the highly regarded author and geologist penned in 2004 and few have heeded his warning. Since you don't' pay any attention to me, don't bother to read it. Of course you did ask.

http://www.energybulletin.net/3647.html

What's your problem ~COSMOBILLY~? You have a reading disability? I didn't start anything with anyone here on this thread or any other. I reply when I get insulted for no reason and don't give a rip if you appreciate it or not.

I wrote my original post and offered opinions on the subject just like everyne else. I wasn't attempting to proclaim wisdon or superior intellect. You should consider soaking you're head too. I could care less if you pay any attention to me or reply to anything I post.

I was replying to you CANARDTAHITI, so why do you ask me to stop and get over it.? That's absurd. What purpose and right do you have hitting a nerve for no reason in the first place? I repled to your insult, which YOU offered, you answered me and continued with more insulting remarks, while displaying a tendency of expostulation and use of words that are over your head.

Obviously you don't know the meaning of the "French" word "naive". Refrain from doing that here and displaying that you're desomentric and oltalstric, which are traits of a sophist. Now I'll gladly stop. Soaking the head is a good treatment for edifying sophistiscm,___ try it.

KP - you doth protest too much, and are as much provoking as being provoked. I stopped taking you serious long ago, but of course that doesn't prevent you or anyone else from thinking you have some special endowment for truth and wisdom, or to the contrary might suppose you are indeed naive. But that isn't what we are here for.

You and you're ilk are on this forum creating derision where none should exist. We should not be mincing words and taking exception to essentially irrelevant details and casually submitted comment. You posture in this matter as if you honestly believe if "they" don't use thermonuclear bombs then somehow "they" are humane. You are attempting to rationalize insanity, applying reason to that which is unreasonable. And your effect here is to trivialize and mock an otherwise substantive comment by an otherwise insightful thinking person. We did indeed ignore the French when they told us to think about what we would be getting into, but in the same vain as you now, we pretended we knew better than they. And we did it then as you do now - by deflecting the substantive point and refocusing the discussion. And the insight of the French, that which should be honored through our learning from what they knew and understood, is lost in the aftermath.

Instead of seeking the threads of truth we avoid and even destroy the fabric it weaves.

Again folks, we either stand together or apart. That means we look for and find what we share in common, to seek how we can come together and be part of the solution, or we are indeed part of the problem. Those thinking they are more knowledgeable or more intelligent, and asking others to prove every point in detail only diminish the common dream.

Indeed, perhaps KP, you might help us identify the common dream, which is.... what? To reign and feign being superior over others, or to coexist together in a shared future vision of individual well-being and social constructiveness?

Stop it KEM, this is absurd. I hit a nerve? Get over it.

Unbelievable! No sooner that I sent my two cents worth, Cosmobilly joins in. Here we go again. Cosmobilly, everyone of us have different ways of analyizing various situations and voice our opinions. You just said:

"Again folks, we either stand together or apart."

Read my above post and see why I just wrote this one. And who am I? Nobody in particular. Just another stiff with thoughts on the matter.

You say I'm NAIVE, using capitol letters. You wrote that for all here to read, because I offered the opinion that I don't believe atomic bombs would be used if we attacked Iran.

I asked what is your proof they would be. Instead of answering that fair question, you changed the subject to your father's war experiences. That's being a sophist dear.

Guess you don't have a good dictionary. The definition of one being NAIVE is: ___"One who is FOOLISHLY simple,___ childlike, ___ artless, and has a foolish lack of worldy wisdom.

I do find that to be insulting. If you don't find the term to be an insult to a 73 year old man, who has also shed blood in wars, and has been around the block more than once, perhaps it is because you yourself are naive and it wouldn't bother you to be so classified.

wsws.org website April 26th, 2008 12:58 pm,

"Don't be fooled, the ruling class is afraid, very afraid. Public consciousness can and will change quickly. The social and economic forces that have come about as a result of the dramatic shift of wealth upwards — an upward shift of wealth unprecedented in the history of the world — has, ironically, made the ruling class extremely vulnerable."

i agree w/ your critique, except i am very cynical that the american people are capable of revolutionary change at this moment in time.

just look at participation in demonstrations in the streets of america before Iraq, take the largest cities (ny 8.2 m, la 3.8 m, chi 2.8 m, hou 2.1 m, phnx 1.5 m),

"The largest demonstration took place in New York City, which attracted between 300,000 and 400,000 protesters."

(http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/feb2003/summ-f17.shtml

the same day, wsws says, 3-4 million turned out in rome (the largest attendance for any anti war demonstration ever held - italians on the streets opposing a US/anglo war).

so, 300,000 people on the streets of nyc (1 out of 24 nyc residents) on one february day. we've been at war for over 1825 days (5 years), the american public is tolerant of what it's government is doing. i don't believe i'm delusional here.

i've often heard people say 'it's a luxury to participate in political speech. who can afford to take the day off of work, to participate in a rally'. if people do not have an understanding of the importance of political speech, or mass movements, it's extremely unrealistic to imagine they can be educated and converted in the time frame circumscribed by a crisis (like war w/ iran).

for example, stand at a grocery store this afternoon and petition/table for cynthia mckinney. unless your at the food coop, i doubt 5% of the people entering the store will know 3 things about cynthia. as a nation our consciousness is very low, yet - these americans will quit their jobs to participate in a GS to overthrow the government?

maybe jesus christ could do it (if he was real). i doubt the greens, or the world socialists, or any of the legitimate torch bearers of the left are capable of that task.

to sustain an effective response to stop government atrocities, would require large numbers sustained over time (like the generalstryke in seattle in 1919, 4 days 2/6-2/11)

1 in 10 Los Angelenos 380,000 people, i in 10 chicagoans 280,000, i in 10 people in Houston, 210,000 people. unless unemployment rates begin to hover around 20-30% i don't see demonstrations/actions capable of sustaining a shutdown.

i also, to a degree, believe the goon squads argument. the american government is already walking the path of violence and suppression of the truth. the fascists will mimic the tactics that they (cia, school of the americas, protestant missionaries) refined in places like el salvador and guatemala on the american population.

we will find body parts on the edge of town, and the people will respond in fear (as they did in central america and nazi germany).

they're already employing these tactics (gathering lists, restricting travel, torturing people, intercepting communications).

as the situation deteriorates (food shortages,a severe recession coupled w/ a hitleresque leader threating nations w/ nukes). the tactics used to suppress the people - and their educated leaders will become more extreme.

the police can shoot you or search you for any reason. you can be detained w/out habeas corpus rights.......

sean bell's murderers got off yesterday, last week the Sup Crt affirmed police use of confiscated evidence acquired during searches conducted over minor traffic citations.

i do not even pretend to have a solution to our predicament (live in peace, continue to inform yourself, share ideas w/ others, participate in politics as best you can),

perhaps the international courts, UN intervention, military occupation of the US by another country.

but i am skeptical of the masses intervening to save the day, even if the US instigated a nuclear war. social change after nuclear war... that's a different subject.

...peace....

ooooh, touchy touchy KEM PATRICK, lol.

Since when is the adjective "naive" an INSULT? Just my franco-american opinion, but you could benefit from a little calming down.

My father landed on Guam, Guadalcanal, Bougainville and Iwo in the first waves. In memory of HIS lifelong suffering due to those "experiences" in the struggle against fascism, I think I am entitled to my humble opinion (which includes qualifying your position as "naive"), and this without being accused of "insulting" your august person.

Mea Culpa, may your pseudo-infallibility continue to reign supreme here at CD...and no I hardly need to consult a dictionary to recognize sophistry, not when I can read your daily posts here, lol.

By the way... there's no reason to suspend, postpone or cancel the up coming elections because corporate America has fielded three candidates (Obama, Hillary and John) that are sure to garner at least 95% of the vote. It's not like people will vote for McKinley or Nader after all! Now you will have to decide if that is a good thing or not.

Got a good dictionary? Look up the word Sophist, it's listed under the letter "S" in English. Read it and then go stare at a mirror for awhile.

Oops, I suggested we drop it didn't I. Well exusssse me.

~CANARDTAHITI~

You have not proven ANYONE has said they WILL use nuclear weapons on Iran. You insist Cheney intends to do that ___ prove it. I believe the use of DU packed bombs would be used, as they have been and are used often used in Iraq, Afganastan and Kosovo.

Those dealdy bunker buster DU bombs are not thermo-nuclear atomic bombs and that is what I first posted and so you say I'm NAIVE. I also said any attack on Iran could develop into a nuclear war and even a WW Three, and it could. So I'm NAIVE you tell everyone here and now teach us French words ___LOL.___ Is 'fuck you' a French term also? Or is that Latin?

You may insult me all you desire if that makes your heart pump faster, by saying I'm NAIVE. I don't lose any sleep over your unwarrented insulting opinions and your opinions are not proven. You on the other hand are a sophist, that is is a FACT. You have proven it YOURSELF, by being obtuse with your comments. Want to start an unnecessary shit fight here? ___ I can toss shit with the best of them. Don't believe that's what the rest here want to read however. So lets drop it.

wsws:

Have you never heard of "learned helplessness?" Most americans suffer from this condition, as well as the stockholm syndrome so typically found in victimized individuals and entire populations.

You are mistaken: the USA power elite are not in the least bit frightened of the masses (though well they should be, I agree with you there). The power elite feels secure in the fact that they have blackwater, they have tanks, they have biological weapons, they have economic leverage, they control the food/energy supply, and they have FEAR. Thusfar it has worked like a charm.

When americans are finally fed up they MIGHT take to the streets...where they will be mowed down by zombie mercenaries from blackwater -- any survivors and their families will be rounded up and destroyed.

No, only massiveworkstoppages/spontaneous sit-downstrikes andgeneralstrikes
offer any hope for overturning this fascist regime, and I doubt americans have the guts for that. They are still secretly hoping that some true patriots on the "inside" will rid them of this cheneybush pestilence.

Not likely, since courage seems to be a quality sorely lacking when it comes to "insiders." They were all bought and paid for long ago.

Yes, once again Nancy Pelosi, Ms. "impeachment is off the table" cleared the way for Bush to attack Iran.

KEM PATRICK:

Yes, you are NAIVE (and yes, it's a FRENCH word, especially applicable to the american electorate).

Anyone who doesn't know BY NOW that the neocon objective has always been a "nuclearized" (read vaporized) muslim world via "tactical/small nukes"...is NAIVE. Read the PNAC papers of 1997, the fascist neocons didn't even bother to hide their agenda.

When American troops and civilian contractors in Iraq are surrounded, cut off from any escape routes, their helicopters being shot down like ducks, when they are facing imminent slaughter, the cheneybush sociopaths will use these entrapped troops and civilians as an excuse for the use of tactical nukes within Iraq, too. Cheneybush fascists are just waiting for that moment, and it is sure to come very soon.

"We had to destroy (the troops) in order to save them," remember that, does it sound at all familiar to you NAIVE folks?

Keep in mind that governments regularly float "trial balloons" to see just how outraged or, conversely, just how acquiescent the general public is to a given possibility.

I remember during the Vietnam War, I believe it was in 1967, LBJ floated the trial balloon that he wanted to use nuclear wepaons on North Vietnam. The public was so shocked, so outraged, that the balloon was quickly lowered, not to be raised again.

To those people who ocynciall throw up their hands and "blame the victim" -- the American public -- keep in mind, too, that the ruling class is scared to death, repeat: SCARED TO DEATH of what the general public is capable of doing. They have the power, but we have the numbers.

Also, capitalism is in a state of serious decay. Given that economic fact, the US ruling class is trying to offset the US' overall economic decline by flexing its military muscle. Clearly, the attempt at compensation won't work and *isn't* working. These are desperate moves the ruling class is making. Assuming we as a species avoid nuclear destruction, the march of history favors the general population. The social and economic strains and tensions capitalism has created are far too great, far too overwhelming for those in power to sustain their infantile, "patriotic," religious-political myths and illusions much longer.

Don't be fooled, the ruling class is afraid, very afraid. Public consciousness can and will change quickly. The social and economic forces that have come about as a result of the dramatic shift of wealth upwards -- an upward shift of wealth unprecedented in the history of the world -- has, ironically, made the ruling class extremely vulnerable.

David Walsh writes:

"The American population has made two revolutions, and demonstrated in the Civil War in particular, the most remarkable qualities of nobility and self-sacrifice. The Russian people made three revolutions in the 20th century. The Polish socialist movement was a mass movement that produced a Luxemburg. Has the bottom dropped out? Has a new species replaced the old one? I don't think so; it doesn't make sense. I'm not convinced that the introduction of modern means of communication and what have you has changed the fundamental picture. People are held back by the conceptions they have. Changed circumstances will change those conceptions."

Click here for the entire article -- http://www.swans.com/library/art11/jsdw01.html

In short, we, the people, are far stronger than many of us think.

Organized, we can win; unorganized, it's easy to see us as powerless. Your choice.

roncypert, earlier in this thread you wrote:

"My memory may be faulty (as it is on occasion), but hasn't Congress already passed a bill which gives President Bush the authority to do whatever he deems necessary when dealing with Iran? And, didn't Senator Clinton vote for said bill?"

You're absolutely right. The Democrats signed off, months ago, on giving Bush permission to do whatever he damn well pleases in Iran.

Note: My objection is not just with the insane people who want to start WWW 3, but also with the all-too-many pessimists who show up on these threads to tell us either that "we're getting what we deserve," or else that the American public is hopelessly stupid; or some such other cynical remark. You are as guilty in your cynicism as those who are to be condemned. This kind of "giving-up-cynicism" is precisely what the defenders of the status quo, Democrats and Republicans, count on. They COUNT on it!

Your might as well be paid by them for your oh-so-helpful cynicism.

Here's how pathetic and Vichy-like the Democratic Party is. ... Hillary threatens to "obliterate" Iran; and Obama obediently buys into the madness.

Quoting from the following article by Joe Kay, "Hillary Clinton threatens to 'obliterate' Iran." …

"Clinton's remark (re. her threat to 'obliterate' Iran) has received little criticism from the American media, and the most that Obama could bring himself to say was that it was it was unnecessary 'saber rattling,' while pledging to respond 'forcefully and swiftly' to any Iranian attack. ...

"Asked if the US should treat an Iranian attack on Israel as an attack on the United States, Obama pledged direct negotiations with Iran but insisted, 'I will take no options off the table when it comes to preventing them from using nuclear weapons or obtaining nuclear weapons.' …

"There are no substantial differences between Clinton and Obama on policy. They both support the continued US occupation of Iraq. They both defend the interests of American imperialism in the Middle East and globally. There are, however, tactical differences over US policy in the Middle East, with sections of the Democratic Party establishment critical of unconditional support for Israel. …
"Clinton's comments are revealing not only in what they say about her own campaign, but what they say about the Democratic Party as a whole, including Obama. No one in the Democratic Party establishment challenges the basic premise underlying the threats by Clinton against Iran: that US policy in the Middle East is aimed at countering Iranian aggression. Neither of the candidates will point out that the policy of unprovoked aggression has been practiced not by Iran, but by the United States, which has killed over 1 million Iraqis, and turned 4 million into refugees, in its determination to gain control of the country and the region.

"The danger of war against Iran — or against China, Russia, or some other country — does not come just from the Republican Party. While the Democrats seek to posture as critics of the Iraq war, they are just as committed as the Republicans to the aims the war was meant to secure, and they will just as surely use military force in the future to achieve these aims."

Click here for the entire article — http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/apr2008/iran-a24.shtml

Amen

No more words necessary - take it any way you want to.

why even bring up the subject? There is nothing we can do to stop this lunacy. Just sit back and watch the show. Maybe Bush will bring back Jesus and we can all live together in peace. The only ones that can stop this from happening is the military, like they did with JFK and others. Assassination or blow up Air Force 1 when all the players are on the plane. But just relax and enjoy the show. Remember God is telling Bush to kill all these people and to start these wars. So how dare you people diss Bush and company.

We have Dr. Strangelove in the White House -- remember the movie?

These are people who love the bomb --- and will take us to the brink and over it with nuclear weapons.

These are sociopaths ---
They are suicidal ---
And they consider destruction to be "winning" . . . !!!

Has anyone heard that rumor, which is most likely true, that rush limbblob has a pathetically small member? I mean realy small; the size a three year old would have. That would explain his bitterness and need to lash out at those big dicked dems.

Hi ~WONDERINGYOU~ how the heck are you doin, really good to hear from you.

No, I don't have any insider info on China's plans, it's just that they have always claimed Taiwan was their legal property and someday they intend to have it, one way or another, just like they finally re-aquired Hong Kong.

China attempted a military invasion of Taiwan in the late 50s as you may recall, but we had supplied Taiwan with the then, new and high tech Sidewinder missils and the Chinese were unable to gain the air superiorty necessary for a sucessful invasion and they backed off. They'll wait with Chinese patience.

If we are so stupid as to attack Iran, and by doing so, over-extend our military, which is already in sorry shape since Bush took over, add to that our failing economy, which is on the verge of a total breakdown, it would not surprise me to see China take that opportunity to invade Taiwan and or assist the North Koreans once again as they did previously in 1949 and 50.

Will they? I don't know. I only stated that is possible, as the Chinese are VERY patient people and they'll wait for the proper opportunity to have their way, they are not going to give up on having Taiwan. The Chinese were a higly civilized and a technically advanced society, when our fore-fathers were still hoards of uncivilized barbarians, which in the Chinese history was not very distant in the past. They don't look upon America as anything other than an experment and as Franklin once said, it's a democracy, if you can keep it. Well, Bush is proving we may not be able to keep it.

BTW, have you lost my address? Take care and stay out of taxis.

Siouxrose; Inflated hubris. Too many in this country think we are invincible. The "Kool-Aid" worked for a time but when the buzz slowed down, stronger additives were poured into the mix and many still quench their thirst for this devil's brew.

You wonder why they got away with it the first time? Possibly two words which should be condensed into one.
Republican and Democrat or Republicrat. They are one and the same, serving the same masters.

"In a sense, our native population is being held hostage to a non-representative government."

Cheney, smirk, and the D.C. establishment haven't lost a moment's sleep over the endless tirades written about them and their nefarious deeds these past 8 years. I doubt if they even read them. They know the majority prefer subservience. It's easier to let another do your thinking and let the "experts" formulate your opinions on various matters, freeing you from time spent seeking out the facts which interfers with television and sporting events.

Maybe Oswald Spengler was on to something in describing how cultures and civilizations rise and fall. We know the direction ours is heading. I wrote about the action on May 1st . Two responses. And you wonder why the ruling class scorns the public? Apathy, lethargy, and willful ignorance are "the axis of evil."

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mullen has admitted that the US is prepping for action against Iran.

Not looking at options.

PREPARING MILITARY ACTION!

War with Iran is not a possibility.

It is, as of now, going to happen.

Mini 'Tonkin Gulf' incidents are becoming more and more commonplace in the MSM. Gen. Petraeus is a shoe-in for command of CENTCOM. Cheney and his cabal of bloodthirsty warmongers are clamoring for a solution to Iran.

And now the chairman of the Joint Chiefs says that the US already has the plans, and is prepping for action, just awaiting the 'go' word.

Should this go forward, and the US does attack Iran...

Then in the words of Rev Jeremiah Wright: "GOD DAMN AMERICA!"

KEM,

Regarding the unraveling of the Korean cease-fire pact you mentioned China might engineer while everyone's looking to Iran, do you have any good reads on how/if Taiwan might get dragged into the fray? I don't expect to be excused from the chaos George and his Dick create in the ME just by virtue of living in Taiwan, but it'd be nice to get a little heads-up if you know of any good analysis sites centering on China.

I suppose this'd all mean the Olympics'd be kinda moot, too.

~CANARDTAHITI~ Thank you so very much for informing me that I'm NAIVE. Since you apparantly are privey to Cheney's inner circle, perhaps you could post a link and identify someone else who is as informed as you are and confirm your "intelligence" as to EXACTLY what Cheney's intentions are and have been, in regard to the types of bombs he will use in an attack on Iran.

For several very good reasons, I stated I don't believe our military would use atomic bombs if we did start a war with Iran, that was my personal opinion. Therefore you claim I'm NAIVE. You have a different opinion, apparantly based upon firs hand knowledge and inform everyone here that Cheney has always intended to use atomic bombs and WILL use them. What else do you know that you are allowed to share with us NAIVE little people?

I'm sorry but I don't confer with Cheney, but am glad to know someone here does. Perhaps you could share some more of your first hand knowledge and "intelligence".

This subject is so painful I can barely write in response; but one thing stands out to me: that America has so celebrated the use of force, has manipulated sports to facilitate a near-worship of "team" orienation, and has such an extensive propaganda network that the HEART of its citizens (too many, although given the 70% disapproval rating, we know it's NOT a majority) has gone DEAD. Here is where the celebration of logic, and cold deliberate THOUGHT processes devoid of COMPASSION and feeling have led this nation. There is an abject failure of empathy. The very fact that high-placed people discuss bombing a sovereign nation with aplomb... that having FIXED the case for war against Iraq and gotten away with it, they barely have to pay their PR people for a second sinister round. They are just pulling out the moves from the initial playbook. Act like the other nation is the offending party; posture that they are interfering with America's "noble" objectives, use the "security card" to convince the fools and sheep that all is being done for their protection, etc etc etc.

In a sense, our native population is being held hostage to a non-representative government. Those in the game are under thrall to Mammon and refuse to jeopardize their own positions to potentially alter the trainwreck of American history and its reverberations around the globe. In such a scenario, only our trade partners can help to alter the course... what would happen if those lending the US the money to continue this depraved war and its intended expansion just said NO? Would they? Otherwise, the responsibility for shed blood extends in the way the idiot in the getaway car is held as an accomplice to the bank robbery. And that's if no one gets shot during the execution of the grand heist.

Wait, no don't wait, attack! We need to consider Iran's weapons of mass destruction, or perhaps the possible development of such. If Bush doesn't take them out, Hillary has already promised to "obliterate" the Iranian people. "Democracy brings peace, don'cha know!" "Freedom is on the march!" And best of all, "Support our troops!"
.
Different verse, but it seems to me that WE'VE ALL HEARD THIS SONG BEFORE.
.
My God, people, how long will you sit and take this treachery? Does no one comprehend that one day we will be, America will inevitably be on the list?
.
Action is indeed needed, but not against Iran. Action is needed here in the "good ol' USA" before America is completely stolen from us, and to quote a famous old Iranian, "...and lo, the bird is on the wing."
.
We need to toss the rascals out and get on with the difficult job of re-building America and repairing our relationships around the world.
.
Now, dammit now, before we are destroyed!

The Bush Administration could not possibly be so deranged as to attack Iran.....could it?

So what is the ENABLER PARTY GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

You know, the spineless pack of sheeple running the Dem Party.

My guess is fall in line, keep their mouths shut, bend over, and let Bush and Cheney give them the royal frigging they have become accustom to. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Please big asteroid wipe out this species known as humans.

fainthope:

You refer to the "strange" idea of a cheneybus "suicide-pact."

Nothing strange here. It's the logic of their pathological condition.

Yes, sociopaths FIRST exploit, manipulate and destroy others.

But YES, they are ultimately SELF-destructive...and of course when they are up against the wall they ALWAYS find a way to take everyone (ie. the USA and the planet) down with themselves.

History has consistently shown that tyrants destroy themselves and those who were stupid enough to believe/follow the tyrants.

Do you want your children and grandchildren drafted to go to the middle-east and get their legs and arms blown off, their faces melted like wax, suicidal, suffering from post traumatic stress disorder, exposed to depleted uranium, radiation, etc.? That's if they're "lucky" enough to not come back in a coffin.

The war profiteering leaders of the U.S., including the Democrats, don't care as long as their children and grandchildren aren't drafted. Don't worry, they will find a way to weasel them out of serving in the military, just like frat boy, dry drunk George Bush's father did for him during the Vietnam conflict.

There's nothing leaders in the U.S. love more than starting wars and unleashing the rabid dogs of war on weaker, nonthreatening countries.

When the Bradley vehicles rolled into Bhagdad, the Republican Guard for the most part had laid down their arms to aid the USA to get rid of Saddam. People were running amongst the tanks to get to the Statue of Saddam to pull it down. There was doubt, certainly, but many Iraqis believed that the USA and its allies were there to liberate Iraq... this view didn't last for long. You can bet Iran has learned this lesson concerning USA imperialism and there will be no doubt in Iran.

The USA cannot possibly win a conventional war against Iran because the enemy ground forces will be gurilla/terrorist. Nuclear, chemical and biological weapons will be imperative. However, Iran is ruled by Islamic rule and any pretense that the USA is not attacking Islam will be gone.

If the USA attacks Iran no one will stand with the USA - certainly not the populations of those 'allies'. Then there will be Pakistan, India, China and Russia. How would they feel about nuclear radiation floating across their borders? But what about the American people themselves?

This has to be dumber than the attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbour.

It's true that a case can be made for the Bush people thinking bombing Iran is answer, a follow up to Iraq. And it's also true they may suspend elections following such a policy. But it doesn't go unnoticed among service people in Iraq and Afganistan that if such a policy is pursued they're dead. Like our erstwhile congresspeople, all military personnel pledge to support the constitution, not the president, against all enemies foreign and domestic.
In sum, for Bush/Cheney to bomb Iran implies that they're
together in a suicide pack. Still, stranger things have happened.

GOOD MORNING AMERICA !!!! I'm writing to you from FRANCE (you remember us, those "cheese-eathing surrender monkeys" from not so long ago, the same people who warned you about staying out of Vietnam and about avoiding any kind of an occupation in muslim countries (aka "Algeria").

Years ago, my very first course in Poly Sci 101 taught me that "Fascist regimes such as Nazi Germany and others ARE NOT RESPONSIVE TO MASSIVE PROTESTS BY THEIR CITIZENS. Such regimes DO AS THEY PLEASE, and they MURDER or otherwise destroy dissidents and resisters (see Senator Paul Wellstone).

I gave up on America 2 years ago when I left the country. ONLY A TOTALWORKSTOPPAGE and millions of ORGANIZEDRESISTORS prepared to ARREST the cheneybush sociopaths can stop the madness.

KEM PATRICK, cheney's intents from DAY ONE has been to use tactical nukes against Iran or Syria, whichever comes first. You are NAIVE.

Rebel Farmer is CORRECT: all this emailing and writing to Congress is a sham and a shame, Conyers and Pelosi and EVERY GODDAM ONE OF THEM is LYING. They will NOT impeach because cheneybush have got them by the GONADS and have threatened all-out world war IF Congress dares to even begin impeachment.

Lastly, MCCAIN MUST WIN THE ELECTION so he can pardon the whole lot of these sociopaths (otherwise they will hang). So one of 2 choices remains for Americans: another rigged "election," or a CANCELLED ELECTION due to world war. Either way, cheneybush are looking to save their asses and run with the money they've stashed.

You are going down, my friends....and the rest of us probably with you. That's whay cheneybush necrophiliacs do: they are fascinated with death and destruction, and they ALWAYS end up dragging everyone else down into their carefully-crafted HELL ON EARTH. Always.

Such a shame that you, my fellow americans, waited too long to rid yourselves of this pestilence. It's called SELF-DEFENSE, and SELF-PRESERVATION. Even at that you have FAILED.

Iran, Iraq = Axis of Oil

Bush/Cheney = Oilmen

Nuking Iran = war for profit

= crimes against humanity

Imminent in the sense of October Surprise and ripe because there is not yet a spokesman for the opposition until the Democrats come up with a one. Al Gore would be fine in the event of a calamity or other necessity for compromise, but while we bicker, W's brain is still ticking. We have created a new superpower called Haliburton or something, with it's own private blackwater army, headquartered in Qattar, with U.S. taxpayer dollars and a printing press. The "real" America needs to get off it's fat arse and go to war on it or we'll forever be the host to that parasite, leaving our government as it's mediator to us.

I'm dreaming of a Patriot in Congress taking out Bush and Cheney (sung to the tune of 'White Christmas'). They would have the element of surprise, and would change the course of History.

Inthenow:

#one) UNITING. I'm weary of polls, but if 70%, give or take a few percentage points, of Americans are against the invasion and occupation of Iraq, for example, are against the disregard for Constitutional government and adherence to the Amendments starting with the Bill of Rights by this administration and the collaboraters in Congress, the checking and balancing of the three branches of federal government policed by the elected representatives of the people, torture as official doctrine, armed military aggression against innocent people, contempt for and violation of treaties our country is signatory to, violations of International Laws accepted by most nations on this globe, a disregard for the Geneva Convention and mockery of it, condoning mercenary companies and labeling them "security services", kidnapping people and calling it "extraordinary rendition", gutting social services, gutting the infrastructure within our borders, preventing government scientists from reporting the truth pertaining to research results, bankrupting the Treasury with fiscal recklessness, and giving the Pentagon and CIA enormous power without restraints, spying on who knows who?, another violation of our civil rights. I could continue, but we'll fall asleep reading.

#two) FIGHTING. There are various ways to fight the battle which needs to be won if we actually want "freedom" and "liberty", "democracy" and the usual words denoting these principals. We can take up the sword and the musket as was done beteen 1861-65 in 'The War Between The States' or by less violent means. As a commited pacifist, I prefer the friendly way. The coordinated unity of working people standing together for the common good. In my experience and what I have read, the quickest path would be a gentle nationwide stryke of the workforce. Its very effective! It even worked with Danish factory workers during the nazi occupation. It wasn't a strike but they conned the Germans in leaving the plant before the end of the shift. The Danes literally shut down the shop! So far we have seen two ways to fight. Another way would be for people in the armed forces not participate in illegal "crimes against humanity," certainly described in the Nuremberg Trials. What if military personnel realized how they were being manipulated and used for criminal activity and started "walking off the job in large numbers?" Another way to "FIGHT."

If the idea of winning in the Middle East is a pacified Iraq under foreign occupation, forget it. That's never going to happen. But that is not the objective of the capitalist ruling class (see Tony Blair's consultations with Rupert Murdoch in the days before the war and the list of attendees at Cheney's energy policy meetings, Ken Lay, ExxonMobil, etal.). They're after control of Middle East oil, whether that means having it themselves or denying it to other capitalist powers (see the 11.9% growth of the Chinese economy this past quarter).

They have 160,000 US troops on the ground there. Another 130,000 armed mercenaries they refer to as "contractors" and several thousand troops from stooge countries like Britain and Poland. Three naval battle groups are lurking in the Persian Gulf awaiting the order to secure Iranian oil.

Domestically they are scrambling politically for delay until an attack on Iran whips up the inevitable war fever. After that there will be no questioning government policy, if martial law is not declared. Certainly elections will be nixed as a luxury we just cannot afford.

When our bourgeois democracy is shut down completely soon, an insurgency will become our only option. We must enlist people and accept the leadership of people in this insurgency without regard to race or nationality. Unbeknownst to most oppressed white workers in this country, unity with his/her African-American, Hispanic and immigrant counterparts is the only hope of salvation. Racism and xenophobia and every other tactic of division have been the lifeblood of capitalism with good reason. Our unity is the only potentially deadly threat to this system. White supremacy, religious fundamentalism, sexism, homophobia, and all the crackpot schemes and nihilistic cults of the bourgeoisie, like al-Qaeda, are dead ends for all of us.

john bengtson:

The answer to the question of "Can Bush suspend the 2008 presidental elections", is yes. I believe it is in the Presidental Directive 51 (but don't quote me on that). But the answer is a firm affirmative!

Peaceman,

What does "uniting and fighting" mean, exactly? How do you envision that? I'm not implying that it can't happen, but it sounds rather vague. Whom do we fight, when and how?

I don't believe atomic bombs would be used in an air assault on Iran, at least not initially. They might if Iran took out one of our aircraft carriers with anti-ship missiles and the Iranians have plenty of those.

I don't see China or Russia answering with nukes unlees we used them first. I do see where China may team up with North Korea again and invade South Korea and at the same time attack Taiwan. lots of scenerios are possible. It could develop into WW Three and a full blown nuke war.

I personally don't foresee WW Three starting unless nukes are used by our military. I'd predict it is most likely our having a depresion if we attack Iran and Bush declaring Martial law and taking over everything. He won't be able to stop the anarchy and rioting, the burning of cites which will occur.

Be prepared to flee the cities and if you don't have any food, be prepared to go hungry. If you don't have a full tank of gas, be prepared to hike fairly soon, if you do have a full tank, be prepared to hike eventually. If you have some bikes to haul along, better haul them. Practice camping out and count the stars at night, ___ every American's dream. If yu make it to the mountains, you can watch the pretty red glow in the sky from massive fires.___ Not a pretty picture, hope none here have any infants. Take your pets, eventually you wil need food.

Is there a thread here with some fun things to discuss?

Yes, I meant Venezula, thanks.