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Clinton's Victory Doesn't Do Much for Her Odds
The Same Crucial Questions Remain for Her -- and for the Superdelegates Expected to Decide the Nomination.
WASHINGTON - Pennsylvania voters Tuesday gave Hillary Rodham Clinton every reason to continue her campaign for president.
But they did not present any definitive new evidence that would compel Democratic Party elders to step in and anoint Clinton as their White House nominee, particularly when Barack Obama continues to lead in the overall delegate count and in the popular vote.
Instead, despite a grueling and often bitter campaign, Clinton's victory Tuesday left in play the same questions that remained seven weeks ago after her 10-point victory in Ohio, another large and politically important industrial state.
What does it portend for the fall campaign that Obama is not winning working-class whites, a crucial swing voting bloc, in the Democratic primaries? Or that he has lost most of the biggest states to Clinton?
How much credit should the party elders -- the superdelegates who are expected to select the nominee by providing the final votes needed for victory -- give Obama for drawing new voters to the polls? Or for energizing younger voters and for spurring massive turnout among African Americans?
Should party leaders worry that Clinton has been all but shut out of the black vote?
The big-state primary in Pennsylvania failed to bring clarity. Now, while a muddled Democratic nominating process enters its fifth month of voting, presumptive Republican nominee John McCain is building his fall campaign, embarking this week on a tour of economically disadvantaged areas that is designed to attract the same working-class voters so coveted by the Democrats.
"She can't win but won't quit," Democratic strategist Jim Jordan said of Clinton. Obama, he said, "is going to win but can't close it out. And meanwhile, McCain skates on, unmolested."
The Democrats' indecision pushes the next important test to May 6, when Indiana and North Carolina hold primaries.
Obama is expected to win in North Carolina, with its heavy concentration of black voters, college students and upper-income whites, who have formed a durable coalition for him in the primaries and caucuses.
But Indiana, a predominantly white state with industrial workers and rural voters, is a more substantial test, largely because it presents Obama with another chance to show that he can do better with those blue-collar voting groups that eluded him in Ohio and Pennsylvania.
While Clinton celebrated her win Tuesday night in Philadelphia, Obama demonstrated his immediate focus on Indiana by traveling there and delivering his speech from Evansville. A recent Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll showed him holding a slight lead there.
"It would be symbolic if Sen. Obama won a state like Indiana," said the state's Democratic chairman, Dan Parker, a Clinton supporter.
But an Obama loss in Indiana might give Clinton an air of momentum, particularly because it is a state where many Democrats have known Obama for several years because of shared media markets with his home state of Illinois.
Later primaries in West Virginia and Kentucky, which play to Clinton's demographic strengths, might give superdelegates even more reason to reassess Obama's electability.
Until voters in those states weigh in, Obama is likely to point to favorable evidence from the Pennsylvania results in seeking new endorsements from superdelegates.
Obama outspent Clinton on television and radio ads in Pennsylvania by more than 2 to 1, yet he did not make major gains among working-class white voters. But he didn't lose support among that group, either -- even after navigating some of the worst weeks of the campaign so far, including a crisis over racially charged comments by his former pastor and accusations that his own comments about economically "bitter" small-town voters showed him to be elitist.
Media exit polls showed Obama winning 38% of the white vote in Pennsylvania, nearly unchanged from the 34% he won in Ohio seven weeks ago.
Even though he lost Pennsylvania by a substantial margin, Obama may argue that he was able to improve his standing with important parts of the electorate. Exit polls found that he won 37% of voters over age 65, up from 26% in Ohio.
He made modest gains among white men, taking 44% of that vote, a gain of 5 points compared with Ohio.
And while self-described independents were less important in Pennsylvania than in Ohio, Obama won a larger share of that group Tuesday.
Obama's campaign is likely to use these numbers in his arguments to superdelegates, some of whom worry that, if nominated, he might not withstand attacks from Republicans aimed at making voters uneasy with his unusual background and lack of experience in federal government.
But as both Democrats fight on, and as about 250 out of the nearly 800 superdelegates remain uncommitted, many strategists and leaders fret that a protracted campaign can only hurt the party's chances of beating McCain in the fall. In the six-week Pennsylvania campaign, Obama faced new scrutiny for certain comments and past relationships, while Clinton was caught exaggerating the dangers she faced in a trip to Bosnia as first lady in the 1990s.
And Pennsylvania's results showed that a potentially damaging racial divide persists in a campaign that once focused on voters' excitement over electing either the first black or female president.
Clinton won just 11% of the black vote.
"Anybody who says past this point that this is good for the party or good for the nominee is a fool," said Jordan, the Democratic strategist, who is not affiliated with either campaign. The candidates, he said are "exhausted, they're more likely to make mistakes, and they're raising each other's negatives."
Evidence of the damage was clear in the exit polls. Consider one example sure to be troubling to Democratic leaders as they examine their chances for November: Among primary voters, about 4 in 10 surveyed said that Clinton was not honest and trustworthy, whereas about 3 in 10 had the same negative assessment of Obama.
© 2008 Los Angeles Times



103 Comments so far
Show AllOn the contrary, Bill Frist has viewed videotape of the Clinton campaign, and insists it's very much alive, and that the prognosis is excellent.
Shall I say it again?
Oh, why not.
I called in January (3 months ago) for a united Democratic party.
Instead, we will have 4 MORE months of this crap, until Hillary is anointed at the convention. Hillary will 'win' and Obama's supporters will be 'losers'. What stupidity. What egotism.
Hillary will get the nomination thanks to those undemocratic superduperpooperscooper delegates and many, many disenchanted and disenfranchised voters will go to independents or stay home due to apathy or anger or frustration.
Who is in charge of strategy for the Democratic party, Elmer Fudd?
Let me speak for those who will never vote for Hillary. As a 55 year old white woman I have never favored identity politics, but I have identified as a feminist. Never again. She has not only discredited herself and her husband's legacy, she is harming the party, she is harming the country, ultimately she is harming the world--talking of nuking the middle east as an election ploy? I couldn't live with myself if I voted for that. No one should. Any "feminist" who votes for her race baiting, fear baiting, saber rattling stuff, and who loves it because it somehow shows a woman can "kick ass" can go join Hillary in her new alliance with the vast right wing conspiracy. She is one sick puppy.
This is brutal for the Democratic party in many ways. However the one way I have yet to hear about is the travesty of the wilting woman in Hillary Clinton.
The world and America have been bludgeoned by men. What we need is women in positions of power, bringing with them the stereotypically fine feminine qualities of compassion, gentleness, tolerance and civility.
Key word? Balance. What we could benefit from would be a feminine perspective to counter the crotch scratching idiocy of the Dubbya crew. We do not need just one more aggressive, unethical, heartless man, even if she does wear a bra.
Years ago, I would have sympathized with the Democrats, but given their worthlessness, honestly at this point, I could care less what happens.
It's gotten to the point where I change my bumpersticker from "Anyone but a Republican" to "Go, lemmings, go!"
Oldguy,
A book on that topic you may wish to read is Kristin Hoganson's "Fighting for American Manhood: How Gender Politics Provoked the Spanish-American and Philippine-American Wars." It is a good read.
Congratulations to Hillary Clinton and Rush Limbaugh, for their victory last night. Their combined efforts to destroy the Democratic party are "turning the tide" to quote Hillary.
Those efforts have been joined by an ugly list of wealthy reactionaries, most notably Richard Mellon Scaife and Ruppert Murdock. Hillary has now pledged to obliterate Iran, and her deceit about trade and support of other wars is sickening.
We also know that she would continue to wage aggressive drug war against her own citizens, and enable the thieves on wall street to bet trillions of dollars on the increasing misery their gaming of our economy has caused us.
What an incredible tragedy it is to watch her quench the flames of optimism and involvement and hope that Obama has generated with her hateful Republican tactics, that are consistent with her choice of allies.
Clinton/Limbaugh, who would have ever thought we'd see the day.
Apparently the LA Times isn't taking into account those of us who wish she'd stay in the race as long as possible to create chaos and to be divisive.
Not that McWar is any better... I'd just rather not have domestic socialism to go along with our fascist foreign policy.
-James
http://thepoliticus.org
It was interesting to see George Stephanopolous on the news this morning. He looked like a kid who asked a girl to go out with him on a date and she said "yes".
Two things on Boomers--
they never get tired of themselves
it takes a hook to get them offstage
... and maybe a third
...still trying to define what the meaning of "is" is, especially when it occurs in "stat-IS-tics"
Hil Clinton, back out please, and be a good democrat senator, and back the better man,,,,your husband Bill, will still get a job in Obama's White House, or an ambassadorship,somewhere, I'm sure, and I'm sure he hopes with a country with lots a goodlooking woman, but he may do better, in a toothless country, gum it to death...go Bill
This election is not about you and me anyway. It is about who this country's corporate elites will feel most comfortable with in the 4 years ahead; Clinton, McCain, or Obama? Anybody for CHANGE in this situation? Unfortunately, it looks like America's liberals still are not.
Royce--
I gave my age (55) above as giving me more cred for my loathing of Hillary, so one part of me wishes you wouldn't dis the Boomers to which I belong, and who have been on the losing end of generational warfare our whole lives. OTOH when I saw the pictures of cheering women (my age) all I could think was "die off already".
What was said:
--Obama's campaign is likely to use these numbers in his arguments to superdelegates, some of whom worry that, if nominated, he might not withstand attacks from Republicans aimed at making voters uneasy with his unusual background and lack of experience in federal government.--
But, why is there so much concern about Obama's ties and none about the Clintons? It's only fair to report on these as Bill Clinton is also running against Obama. How many times do we hear the words about the Clinton administration being good for the economy, etc. etc.? Then that administration should now be re-examined to bring to the fore those arguments that the Republican Party will be using against Hillary. I do not think that John McCain and Co. will be as gentle as Obama has been with Hillary. Media do your job!!!!
This from www.gallup.com:
"If McCain vs. Obama, 28% of Clinton Backers Go for McCain
If McCain vs. Clinton, 19% of Obama backers go for McCain"
Now, the correct thing for either of the Democratic candidates to do if they lose the nomination is to urge their followers to back the other candidate. And, unless you want a Republican President, the correct thing to do is to vote for the Democratic candidate, no matter who wins the nomination.
That said, it appears to me that the poll results showing more Hillary supporters would vote for McCain than Obama supporters, should their candidate lose, is an argument Clinton will use to sway the super delagates:
"Look, nine percent more of my supporters will switch to McCain if Obama is the candidate. That could be the difference between victory and loss."
So, if you are an Obama supporter, being rational while talking to a pollster may not be the best course of action. Act like 28% of Clinton supporters and say if Obama isn't nominated you'll vote for McBush.
To hell with you Hillary!
Your politics are as dirty as your husband's cigars.
Hillary Rodham Clinton- Doing everything she can to destroy the Democratic Party so John 'Bomb Bomb' McCain will become president and carry on the bidding of the REAL rulers of the US.
The M.I.C.
Little Brother - Thanks for that one. I needed a good laugh to start my day.
Fear-mongering and war-mongering. Shame on her!
John Bomb Bomb MCCain is out of touch, blows where the wind blows and dilutes any real attempts at change, note, the campaign finace act, bullshit,,,,and the ideas that democrats will raise taxes, welll yes someone has to pay for that ashole who ran up the debt so the ultimate rich would have a taxpayer garrantee of interest on their ill gotten gains, who else buys T-Bills, oh... foreign Governments, hmm seems like our grandchildren are going to be beholden to other countries, seems like slavery to me
MOVE OVER RALPH "PARTY POOPER," NADER, WE NOW HAVE "HILARIA".
Wow, almost everyone here hates Clinton and loves Obama, huh?
Even though Obama has consistently voted for the illegal occupation of Iraq?
Even though Obama thinks that GHW Bush has a "wise" foreign policy? (Hey, he said it, not me.) I guess the illegal invasion of Panama, having Glaspie tell Saddam Hussein that the US didn't care about Arab-Arab border conflicts and the infamous highway of death in Iraq were all "wise" things to Obama.
Even though Obama moved to limit class action suits against corporations?
Even though Obama wants to do absolutely nothing to fix health care in the USA?
Now, certainly, many of the same things can be said about Clinton, but let's not fool ourselves, or let Obama fool us. He's just another corporate Democrat who has done absolutely nothing to stop the atrocity in Iraq since he got into the Senate. No leadership on that, only votes to fund the occupation and escalation (though you might know it as a "surge").
And yet, here on this site, Clinton is the bad one and Obama is going to "change" politics. (Really? You really think Jeff Sessions is going to give a hoot about Obama? Really?)
Maybe this lunacy about Obama will wear off if he wins the presidency, but I don't see how he can beat McCain without Ohio, and I don't see how he can win Ohio.
The "correct" answer is for Barack and Michelle to win on behalf of all races in the USA and the world over. That's what we'd like to show the world---that the USA has overcome racism for its own benefit and for the benefit of all people everywhere by extension.
Pennsylvania has spoken that our dreams MAY not yet be possible---due to the (indeed bitter) macho of some white men and due to white feminism at the extreme where some females feel they must prove something by pushing a woman through this time, even if its Hillary (who cannot pass a "trustworthy" poll).
The worst is for this extreme prejudice to result in the election of John and Cindy McCain, who, by their actions, are a world embarrassment, and by their policies, are an abomination to every person (except corporate "persons").
Hillary is going to try to squirm to the top by promising superdelegates she will take Barack as VP. If he cannot win due to racism and feminist sexism (a possible lesson from PA primary), this MAY be the result we need. Certainly it's the result she'll want, since she probably can't win without him either.
We citizens must remember this is about not capitulating ever again to Republicans and corporations. That's all it's really about---unless we skipped watching the history of the last 8 years and somehow still think elections have "no consequences".
longingforsanity....
"...Any [one] who votes for her race baiting, fear baiting, saber rattling stuff, and who loves it because it somehow shows a woman can "kick ass" can go join Hillary in her new alliance with the vast right wing conspiracy. She is one sick puppy!!!!" Well said...
[Only to add Billory reminds me of a very distant relative of mine... Honestly you couldn't stand being in the same room as her for longer than 5 minutes... a real take-over merchant...demonstrative and bitchy..]
She's just _ m e n t a l l y __ S I C K _, and has no characteristics of a _ p u p p y _,
although her being incontinent, and
running around over newspapers
is an interesting virtual reality
We're fucked, because most Democrats don't really want serious social change or economic justice anymore than the Republicans. If they did, we'd have John Edwards as the likely nominee at this point. He's not perfect (he would likely have caved to the national security mainstream on Iraq, but hey that's better than lining up with the neocons as Hillary has), but he was the only one to talk in anything but generalities about reining in corporate behavior, and the only one to offer a serious plan for universal health care.
But who cares who I think should have been the nominee? more importantly, it seems clear we spend a lot of time trashing the party establishments, blaming the media (guess we learned this from our leaders), critiquing "the system," and precious little time asking the tough questions: what price are Americans willing to pay for a better future for their children? how much does it matter to us that people are homeless? can we face significant lifestyle change, major reductions in consumption, in order to stop poisoning ourselves? Do we have the courage to stand up to the creeping fascism of our intelligence/military/industrial complex?
Sadly, at this point, we are failing the exam. I hope and pray the "tide" will truly turn.
Richm...
"...there's a huge difference between a ruthless dishonest monster like Hillary; and someone like Obama, who is in many ways an exceptionally decent & thoughtful figure, as US politicians go. It's deeply disheartening that Pennsylvania voters showed us that even after 7 years of Bush, a filthy corrupt media is still able to direct a dumbed-down electorate to vote against their own interests...." Absolutely correct...
I suspect Rove just cracked open a bottle of Champagne to toast McSame's improved chances..thanks to Billory's skullduggery...
God, the people in Pennsylvania are stupid (yeah, that's what I said, go ahead, get mad!). Here we go again, just like '04. Hillary is nothing but a big phony, lusting for power, willing to say and do anything to get elected.
If you're out of work in Pittsburg, blame the Clintons for NAFTA. If you've lost a loved one in Iraq, blame Hillary for her war vote. If you've lost your house in Philadelphia, blame her support of the bankruptcy bill and the credit industry. Her solution for healthcare is no solution, just more caving to the insurance industry.
Why aren't the American people more informed and outraged about this stuff? Why do they keep voting against their own best interests? I just don't get it. Maybe it's time to move to Canada, were people have more brains.
Why did Obama run ....so white rich people can get McCain...
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........
every one knew Clinton was going to run '08
back in '02
Obama votes [present] leaders 'lead' not 'hide'.
go Green stop with this crying for Clinton/Obama
go to Washington Post/ New York Times/LA Times/ Chicago Fib/ Chicago Sun-Gossip-Times
"Nonetheless, there's a huge difference between a ruthless dishonest monster like Hillary; and someone like Obama, who is in many ways an exceptionally decent & thoughtful figure, as US politicians go."
What's so decent about him? Seroiusly. Give me an example that would matter to me, like a courageous vote in the Senate. Anything at all will do.
He's on record as saying he wants to accomodate Republicans. Obama told Tim Russert that he wants to appoint moderate judges.
He's repeatedly voted to fund the illegal occupation of Iraq. (I thought Democrats were against that. I guess not so much after all.)
Obama even wants to increase military spending! Apparently, over a billion dollars a day is just too stingy. Not to mention his support of Joe Leiberman.
And, of course, he voted to renew the PATRIOT Act.
Or is his relationship with Rezko an example of his decency?
The man is just another politician. Nothing more.
And he can't beat McCain.
Bigstinky wrote: "Here we go again, just like '04. Hillary is nothing but a big phony, lusting for power, willing to say and do anything to get elected."
Huh. It seems to me like Obama is lusting for power, too. After all, he's working awfully hard to get elected. That looks like exactly what Clinton is doing.
As for willing to say or do anything, ummm, you mean like LYING RIGHT TO ME? You remember, when he said he wasn't in favor of free trade or NAFTA when he was lying his way through Ohio, but then sent a staffer to tell the Canadians it was all just political rhetoric, not to be taken seriously?
You mean like that?
Just because you've been suckered, don't think that the rest of us have.
HRC is no different from any male who has every run. The invective on this web site is horrific and at about the level of, what, 5th graders. Grow up America the world is tired of your ignorance, stupidity and bully tactics that explode everywhere in greed, violence and war. Youre about as ready for a growth in consciousness as a rock.
My only guess as to why Pennsylvanians went for Clinton is because Obama has said that fixing the country is not going to be easy - it's going to take work - it's going to require sacrifice. We've heard that Hillary attracts the old style Democrats - those who support entitlement programs and the like. Apparently there a lot of people in Pennsylvania who prefer to sit on their butts and collect welfare checks under a Clinton administration rather than actually doing something constructive under an Obama administration. Why don't these lazy people form their own party? Oh well - they're so old they will probably be dead soon anyway. Then the new generation of Democrats can take over.
If Barack Obama doesn't become our next president and Hillary or McCain does, I am going to turn in my citizenship and join the Lakota Indian nation. I will never vote for Hillary. Our country won't survive her or McCain.
These discussions about "winning more votes" are pointless when you consider that in order to increase the number of people voting for you, you have to appeal to those who have not yet decided on which candidate to vote for, despite months of campaigns. These people are obviously so indecisive and out of touch with their own original feelings on the matter that they can be manipulated by low-road scandal-raising propaganda such as comes predominantly out of the Clinton camp. It's a sad day in America when its fate is decided by people who may be too "dumb" to not have figured out where they stand yet; and even sadder when you consider the opportunities that Obama has had for attacking Clinton in the same way she attacks him, and that her tactic obvioiusly works to impress these "dumb" voters.
Junna,
Tell me, please, what policy differences between Clinton and Obama will hurt you, or this nation.
Now, I think they both have pretty bad policies. He seems to be just a shade to the right of her, but honestly, they're so close as to be almost the same. In fact, they only seem to have voted differently three times, and each time Obama took the Republican position. (By the way, I am not the same person who wrote what I just linked, lest anyone be confused.)
So why the hatred for Clinton? I'm really trying to understand what policies of hers you don't like so much you'd pretend to leave the USA if she won.
Thanks,
vox
RichM
Well said on all counts.
Evidence A: Who was a guest visitor to the Clinton White House?
Jeremiah Wright!
Has Obama used that? No! He wants the issue dead in its grave.
He's the better person, period, regardless of his voting record.
RichM:
Perhaps you're right. On the other hand, though, the Obama campaign has been just as aggressive against Clinton, as far as I can tell, and really the campaigns haven't been that rough at all. Do people forget what Bush did to McCain in 2000? I mean, that was dirty. What Clinton is doing is, to me, just politics, and not particularly harsh ones at that.
Indeed, sitting here, trying to think of anything "filthy" launched by the Clinton campaign this last month, I really can't.
"Has Obama used that? No! He wants the issue dead in its grave."
Well, of course he does. It reflects very badly on him in much of America. He's not likely to talk about something that people associate negatively to him. That's not decency. That's simple politics 101. "Don't talk about the stuff you don't want people to talk about."
You're missing the point. He can connect Wright to Hillary.
"Is he so bad? You used him to help with your marriage!"
That brings up her can of worms which the Repubs would just love to see and deflects it from him.
That's hardball with spit on it. he won't. She would in a heartbeat.
The Hillary..Her Hillaryness...is the representative of the 50-60 something ANGRY, AGITATED, VINDICTIVE FEMALE REAL ESTATE AGENTS.
This demographic, is SO ANGRY and has so much..BILE..in fact they are STEWING IN THEIR OWN BILE...they are so HYPOCRITICAL..that they really..are..after all..A REPUBLICAN TICKET!
IF THE HILLARY IS SO CONCERNED WITH WOMEN..THEN WHERE IS THE NOTION OF AN "EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT"..THAT WOULD REALLY BE SOMETHING FOR THE WOMEN VOTERS TO BE EXCITED ABOUT..
My POINT? that this is NOT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN VINDICTIVE RAGE FROM WOMEN WHO HYPOCRITICALLY BLAME THE 'GLASS CEILING' FOR THEIR STRUGGLE TO CLAW THEIR WAY TO THE TOP...OF THE LOCAL CENTURY 21 OFFICE!
Hillary CANNOT beat McBush..McSame..etc..SHE CANNOT BEAT HIM!..But in that vindictive way..she will go on and on...destroying the credibility of the one PERSON who can beat McBUSH...OBAMA!
She is doing more damage than ANY KARL ROVE EVER COULD..PERIOD!
Hillary will NOT END THE WAR, SHE WILL NOT HELP THE ENVIRONMENT, SHE WILL NOT ROLL BACK THE PATRIOT ACT ABUSES, THE MILITARY COMMISSIONS ACT OR ANY OTHER ILLEGAL "SECURITY" ACTIONS BY THE CURRENT REGIME..SHE WILL BE MORE OF THE SAME...SHE IS ESSENTIALLY A LYING, CHEATING, REPUBLICAN...SHE IS BACKED BY THE DEFENSE INDUSTRY, SHE WILL NOT HELP THE ECONOMY, THERE IS NO MONEY FOR HER HEALTH "PLAN"..WILL SHE HELP US REGAIN OUR LOST CIVIL LIBERTIES? ARE YOU KIDDING? OF COURSE NOT..SHE IS A CONSTITUTIONAL "CHERRY PICKER" THE WORST FORM OF DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN HYPOCRACY.."OH YES, THE FOURTH AMENDMENT..WELL..MAYBE..BUT THE SECOND? ABSOLUTLEY NOT!.." ETC..ETC..
HILLARY CANNOT WIN..SHE CANNOT AND WILL NOT BEAT MCBUSH IN THE FALL..IS THIS THE PLAN? IS SHE THE NADER OF THIS ELECTION CYCLE? RUINING ANY CHANCES OF A REAL DEMOCRATIC VICTORY BY SABOTAGING FROMTHE INSIDE..(THE MOST EFFECTIVE SABOTAGE BY THE WAY..) THE DEMOCRATIC PARTIES CHANCES? THAT IS ALMOST...OBVIOUS..ALMOST..
THANKS HILLARY, FOR YOUR DESIRE TO CONTINUE THE AMERICAN DYNASTY PHASE..AND THUS TO CONTINUE THE AMERICAN DECLINE INTO "FRIENDLY FASCISM"...THANKS! REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
vox,
You are using CQ Politics as a source? No wonder you are confused. I will try to run down a few of the highlights with regard to their differences.
We all know that before Obama was in the Senate he gave a speech against the war while she voted for it, and she even voted against the Levin amendment, which would have urged diplomacy and multilateralism, before going to war (though leaving unilateral US action as a last resort). Also, before Obama was in the Senate, Clinton voted for the banrkruptcy bill in 2001 (later she missed the vote on the bankruptcy bill in 2005, obviously not wanting to offend her misguided liberal supporters or the banks that are part of her "base"). Obama voted against the 2005 bankruptcy bill.
Also, in 2006, there was an amendment to an appropriations act to ban the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. Hillary voted against the ban and Obama voted for it. And in 2007, Hillary voted at Bush's request to label the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization, a move that many saw as intended to open the way for hostilities. Obama missed that vote (probably worried about AIPAC).
And then there is NAFTA and the Colombian Free Trade Agreement. Hillary claims to have always opposed NAFTA, while the record shows she gave speeches supporting it as first lady. She claims to oppose the Colombian agreement, though her husband and her former main campaign advisor, Penn, are financially interested in its passage. Also, the DLC, of which Clinton is not only a member but was the main speaker in 2005 at the DLC convention, strongly supports all such free trade agreements. And, according to later published accounts by Canadian newspapers, it was the Clinton administration that told the Canadians not to worry about rhetoric about NAFTA, while an Obama aide held a meeting on it with a Canadian official in which he made statements consistent with Obama's position. And Clinton, being the shameless liar that she is, kept on telling the people in Ohio and later in Pennslyvania the distorted account casting blame on Obama.
As for differing rhetoric, Hillary on numerous occasions has referred to the populist and popular leader of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, as a thug and a dictator. Of course he is neither and Hillary's own president comes much closer to resembling such descriptions, but she has rarely made any pejorative comments about Bush. Obama, on the other hand, has been much more reserved with regard to comments about Chavez or the leaders of China, recognizing that demagoguery can hamper diplomacy.
And we know that Obama joined Edwards in criticizing the role of lobbyists in government while Hillary defended lobbyists. Also, Obama joined Edwards in proposing that we follow through with the Reagan-Gorbachev dream of moving toward the eventual elimination of nuclear weapons. I believe Hillary has been silent on this.
And we know that recently Hillary spoke cavalierly about murdering tens of millions of Iranians if their leaders, which the people have little control over, make the foolish mistake of attacking Israel. Obama has made no such reckless comments, though he was given a great amount of flak, from Clinton and the Bush administration, for proposing a policy on Pakistan that is virtually identical to the Bush administration policy regarding elimination of known terrorists in Pakistani territory.
That is a brief rundown. Do your own searches on the Internet if you are really curious.
Not one of the MSM stations wrote/spoke a peep about the republicans who brazenly change by , in some accounts, by the hundreds ,to democrats to make sure Hillary gets the nod in November, to run against McCain
they must be mighty afraid of what anyone but a corporate shill , will/may do if elected.
I am not surprized by this but just want to keep pointing out the fact that if the republicans want someone for the race other than Obama ,then one must closely look at their reasoning
"You're about as ready for a growth in consciousness as a rock."
Well, actually, there's a very enlightened author named Peter Russell who is both a theoretical physicist and into Zen meditation...
He suggests that consciousness is a fundamental building block of the universe-- consciousness all the way down, right through rocks and down into the sub-atomic stratum.
Vox,
I still love America and its people. It's my country but I just get so angry and frustrated.I have to remember , it's the government that's to blame and maybe we will be having a political regeime change soon from Republican to Democrat.
The Bush administration has gotten our country to the brink of financial collapse and would keep foreign invasions and killing of citizens in these countries going indefinately to gain power and third world resources. McCain would follow these sames policies. Hillary Clinton has said she would obliterate Iran. She lies about her own experiences and degrades and attacks her opponents. She is ready with the war machine to continue the Imperialistic policies of the Republicans. She respects John McCain as more capable and experienced to become the next president rather than Barack Obama. She shows lack of concern and disdain for own party by tearing down Barack as her main strategy and refusing to consider quitting her campaign at the slightest chance she could get the superdelegates to choose her at the expense of giving McCain advantage in the general election.
I don't agree with everything Barack says but he said he would negotiate instead of mindlessly go into wars. He said he wanted to eliminate the mindset that got us into the wars in the first place. Hillary seems to be trying to appear tough by proclaiming a war stance as her international policy. Most people think Barack should verbally attack Hillary more strongly than he does, mostly he is on the defense against her attacks.
What hurts me about all this is living in a country where the government genocides third world civilizations at will. Everything seems to point to the US as the evil initiator where ever there is trouble in the world. My idea of the first and main priority is "stop the death and destruction of citizens in these countries and don't create any more wars." and this will go a long ways in getting our economy back on track. The main reason the economy of the US is failing is because of it's foreign policies of divide, conquor, steal and kill.
I
I'm amazed by the stupidity on here, the irrationality - Obama is NOT a good candidate! Clinton has many flaws but she is not the evil woman that is claimed about her. She can win swing voters; he can win new voters. It's too much of a risk to put an inexperienced do nothing U.S. Senator into the presidency (Obama).
So cool J CRUMB, Only Hilary could turn the housing disaster into a godsend
This whole article is just bs from the campaigns. They just keep slinging this charge back and forth that somehow this competition is helping McCain. There's absolutely nothing to that beyond the BS the campaigns are dreaming up to try to smear the other one with, but that doesn't seem to stop this constant nonsense.
Here's just two thoughts.
-- The old saying is 'there's no such thing as bad publicity'. Right now, Obama and Hillary are in the news all the time. McCain is struggling for notice. If this keeps on, it stays that way through August. That could actually be very good for the Democrats. Once this is settled, the corporate media will start pushing McCain constantly and then the Dems will struggle for any press coverage that isn't just smearing them.
-- Another old saying among political types is that most voters don't pay any attention to an election before 3 weeks out from election day. The strange notion that what's happening today will make people vote for McCain in Nov flies in the face of a lot of political experience.
And, my opinion is that McCain can't win anyways. He's got big boat anchors tied around his neck by his connections to Bush's unpopular war and economics. McCain doesn't have a chance and will be lucky to get 40% of the vote in the fall.
The latter is one reason this is being fought so hard at this time. Everyone who counts knows this is the Presidential election happening right now.
But hey, I guess the corporate media like the LA Times needs something to distract their readers from the fact that the combined economic policies of both the corporate Democrats and the corporate Republicans is crashing the economy and driving them into bankruptcy, which has just been re-written by the same Dems and Rethugs to screw them all even worse. This is just bread and circuses to distract people from becoming an angry mob.
My oh my, what a spiteful bunch we are. We say we'd elect a clear psychopath to run the country if our preferred candidate does not win--cut off our noses to spite our face or, in this case, our future. Well, all you Hillary haters may have to accept her being on the ticket, and visa versa for Obama. In this instance, if Obama chooses Hillary for a running mate, does that then mean he has poor judgment?
I wonder, too, about those claiming to be 'democrats' (never mind progressive), not selecting Kucinich or Edwards. We don't vote with our hearts because we're afraid the candidate we REALLY want has no chance of winning. Therefore, we allow fear to be our guide. Either that or we're less progressive or 'liberal' than we profess.
Anyone voting for McCain out of spite, fully deserves him. They will reap what their votes sow.
Rather than staying home out of spite, go out and vote for Nader or McKinney, if you hate Hillary so much. Watching the country now, it is becoming clear that the majority does not KNOW where their best interests lie, and they may not have a lot more time to figure it out.
Most seem like scared little rabbits down a rabbit hole. Well, you should know that the monsters of this world know EXACTLY what they want, and have no conscience about going after it. And while we quibble over trivialities among ourselves, they take it.
But if you must use you vote to make a statement, then at least use it to make a progressive, rather than regressive one.