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McCain's Vietnam Lessons Unlearned?
WASHINGTON - Throughout a long career in politics, presumptive Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain has had his foreign policy shaped by his and the United States' experience in the Vietnam War.
But that shaping has been very dynamic -- not beholden to any one particular lesson of the conflict, but rather taking each political situation presented to him and viewing it through the lens of Vietnam, often with mixed results.
The most potent example of this today is also one of the biggest campaign issues -- McCain's support for the Iraq war. The war, many feel, violates some of the primary lessons of Vietnam that were thought to be solidified in the Powell Doctrine of former George W. Bush secretary of state Gen. Colin Powell (Ret.), who along with McCain was informed by his service in Vietnam.
The Powell Doctrine sets out requirements for U.S. engagement in a military conflict. Included in the criteria are U.S. public support, clear objectives, and the use of overwhelming military force.
But just as critics use Vietnam to challenge the folly of continued occupation, McCain uses it to defend the U.S. presence there -- citing a Vietnam-era criticism of the U.S. that it had "lost the will to fight".
McCain's own military service during and after the Vietnam War was fraught with the sort of drama usually reserved for war films. A naval aviator, McCain's plane was shot down over Hanoi, the capital of North Vietnam. McCain was then taken prisoner and tortured for five years -- notably refusing to be released early, out of order of capture, because of his father's position in the Navy.
Upon his release from captivity, McCain returned to the U.S. as a war hero, and used the platform afforded him to support President Richard Nixon's escalation of the conflict and, notably, his support for the "Domino Theory" -- that if South Vietnam fell to communists, a "red fever" would spread across Southeast Asia and strengthen global communism and its alleged goal of violent and forceful world domination.
"I don't hold him accountable for anything he said right after returning from Vietnam," author, blogger and political consultant Cliff Schecter told IPS, citing the stress and trauma of the long captivity.
But while McCain moved away from many of his originally stated lessons on Vietnam as he went into politics, he has since returned to many of them as he has grown closer to the neo-conservative movement -- rehashing the old arguments to warn about the dangers of leaving Iraq even as those ideas proved to be false alarms in the case of Vietnam.
"He was a little attached to Vietnam at first, but then he learned his lesson about Vietnam," said Schecter, calling McCain's worldview at the time something akin to Powell's. "He entered public life -- in 1982 when he won his congressional seat -- as a complete isolationist."
One of the first indications of McCain's "maverick" status was when he broke with party ranks in 1983 to oppose President Ronald Reagan's plan to keep troops in Lebanon. The vote cast was on the losing side, but troops would nevertheless be pulled when U.S. barracks there were bombed.
Similarly, McCain opposed the use of force in Somalia and Haiti in the 1990s.
"Just like that, in 1997 and 1998 he did a complete 180 when he started hanging out with the neo-conservative crowd," said Schecter, whose book on the Arizona senator, an unsympathetic profile called "The Real McCain", was recently released. "McCain has broken with his bothers in arms to join this group of armchair warriors who theorise on blackboards and computers and have never been actually been to war."
The allegiance with that crowd was codified in 2000 when neo-conservative Randy Scheunemann was added to McCain's 2000 presidential bid as an advisor. For his 2008 run, McCain has taken on Scheunemann as his foreign policy chief.
At an event at the Washington think-tank the Brookings Institution earlier this month, Scheunemann spoke of another of McCain's fears about a U.S. defeat in Iraq -- a weakening of U.S. military forces. Again, McCain's contention was based on the Vietnam experience of returning to active duty in command of a squadron rife with recruiting issues and planes grounded due to disrepair.
"[McCain] served in the military in the aftermath of defeat and saw first-hand how difficult it was to recruit and retain personnel to keep aircraft flying and so on," said Scheunemann.
But Shecter complains that McCain and Scheunemann have it backwards; it is the Iraq war itself that has weakened U.S. military forces rather than the spectre of defeat.
"By any real measure, the military is so unprepared right now because of the war that John McCain and George Bush and their allies thrust upon us," said Schecter. "We're much more dangerously overstretched than anything close to where we were back then."
Perhaps the biggest gap in logic for McCain's use of his experience with defeat in Vietnam to bolster the war effort in Iraq is based on his contention that the U.S. must not lose its will to fight.
"It's a trick because that observation assumes that the United States could have won in Vietnam if only it had not withdrawn, which is not true," Juan Cole, professor of history at the University of Michigan and a Middle East expert, told IPS. "Yes, it's very unfortunate to be defeated in a military endeavour, but it happens. So suck it up and get over it."
Cole insists that it is not the lessons of Vietnam, but rather that war's follies that are being replayed in Iraq.
"McCain and the Republicans misunderstood the North Vietnamese communists as being an international communist threat. But they were just Vietnamese nationalists," said Cole. "Now these same people are misunderstanding the Sunni insurgency as an international al Qaeda threat. But they're just Sunni Arab Iraqi nationalists."
After McCain had settled into the realist mindset as he entered politics, he played a major role in normalising relations with Vietnam after the end of the Cold War -- advocating for a U.S. interests section in Vietnam in the early 1980s and traveling to Vietnam in the mid-1990s as part of a push for normalisation made official shortly thereafter by Pres. Bill Clinton.
"In a way that was sort of explicitly or implicitly admitting that what we did in Vietnam was an absolute waste of our time. It was a stupid war. It didn't help our national security; it injured us," said Schecter. "It exacerbated problems just as Iraq is doing now. So now he throws up the same silly platitudes that were used back then about 'you need to win there.' Well, what does that mean?"
"In the end, diplomacy is what created the situation we're currently in our relationship with Vietnam," he said. "Where are we right now? We're a trading partner of theirs."
© 2008 Inter Press Service



48 Comments so far
Show AllYes, for the militarists, iraq is the continuation of the Vietnam War
they would have won, if only they'd kept on fighting. This proves
the definition of insanity which is doing the same thing the same way over
and over again and expecting a different outcome this time. And the
even crazier thing is that a great deal of the American public keeps voting
these folks into power. It says more about "us" than it does them.
John McCain is the enemy of all humanity. He is an unrepentant murderer and must be defeated. If we ever lose our will to crush him and his war criminal ilk, all the countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America could fall like dominoes under the control of the evil Amerikkkan corporatocracy.
The USA could never have 'won' in Vietnam, because the aggression was against the people of Vietnam.
Any continued or escalated aggression (nukes, i.e.) would only have ensured that the Vietnamese lost more. That's not the same as winning.
Same as Iraq. The USA cannot win against the people. The longer the USA stays, the more the Iraqis lose and the more the USA loses.
It has to be learned that you cannot force regime change in a country that you don't plan on occupying.
The Neocons are a blend of 1) utter fools that believe it can work, and 2) criminals of the highest order for convincing a nation that it can work to covertly create occupation. I don't know what percentage that I would rate one to the other.
Hey, greetings from Hell. You (expletive deleted) (expletive deleted) thought you got rid of me when I cashed out in 1994. (Expletive deleted) you! Hell isn't such a disaster after all. Me and Joe Stalin are scheming to off Beelzebub and take over, you know? But that's another post. Thanks, you commie, pinko, jellyfish punks for running that photo of me and Johnny McCain, next president of the United States. You cowards and faggots're going to get your faces crushed in the mud when Johnny gets done with you, guaranteed. Victory in Iraq! America, Love It or Leave It. Better Dead Than Red. America - Number One. You can't see me but I've got both arms raised above my head giving the V for Victory with both hands. (Expletive deleted) all of you!
Using politics to commit murder.
Locust..."...Same as Iraq. The USA cannot win against the people. The longer the USA stays, the more the Iraqis lose and the more the USA loses..."
Absolutely correct....karma is nasty SOB; particularly if your're on the wrong side...Put differently blow-back for generations...
Richard M - thanks for at least making me smile, you crazy expletive deleted.
A week ago I was convinced that McCain could never be more than creamed toast. Now it seems 2000-2008 has made the neocon virus resistant to everything. I take comfort in one thing: Percentage wise, more McCain voters will die before November than newly registerd Obama girl voters.
sasf: You may be right about the death percentages. But consider this: the percentage of McCain voters getting their vote counted and counted correctly is greater (most likely) than the newly registered Obama girls getting the same treatment.
Were all the POWS who came home from WWII or Korea also considered heros? As has been pointed out by others McCain never had his feet wet in the rice paddies of Vietnam. That he was tortured and survived is a testament to the human spirit, and I certainly do not wish to take that away from him. As to experiencing the horrors of war... he flew over them.
For a minute there I thought I was having a bad dream.
Thanks CD for this IPS article. I've learned from it, and will follow-up on McCain '...refusing to be released early, out of order of capture, because of his father's position in the Navy.'
'... Admiral John McCain Jr., Senator McCain's father.
The fact is we were set up to sink fast, blame it on Egypt and bring the U.S. into the war. This was the deal made by our government and the Israeli Government...What I found out later is our government was 120 seconds away from dropping nuclear bombs on Cairo, Egypt and they would have if the LIBERTY would have sunk.' http://shrinkster.com/x3o
And now to find out about:neo-conservative Randy Scheunemann
And why in 1997 did McCain join the neo-cons? It was not his anti-communism, but worlds away. It seems he is just a stupid militarist regardless of why or where, and I fear with what. He, like George Jr, is stupid little angry man and dutiful son to a fearsome dad, trying to pretend he is a man and killing defenseless people won't do it, so perhaps nuclear war with Russia is what his dementia perfect for. That means with Brzezinski in charge of Obama, as he was Carter, WWIII is only less likely, with Hillary Clinton. And she is getting shafted, so that means she is our girl, since we can't get Cynthia McKinney, the best of all candidates.
Having admitting that he caved under torture (hey I would too), McCain is not smart enough to know that torture is done to get info that is wanted, not info that is true.
McCain apparently 'joins' things for power - he approached John Kerry in '04 to talk about switching parties to be a senate kingmaker, then said 'never mind' when Jeffords went Indie. My view is that McCain is at core, crazy. I am so tired of crazy old white men.
TruOrange brings reality crashing down on me for the 2nd time in 2 days. Ouch. Add that McCain votes will be counted correctly, and will probably be counted 'correctly' more than once.
Ironic to see McCain on crutches in the old photo with Nixon and yet he votes for torture today. I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander in his mind. That makes him complicit and therefore not unlike his Vietnamese captors of old. That's a sad thing to say. It does seem that he should be seen in the same light as those that assaulted him all those many years ago. Perhaps McCain no longer dreams when he closes his eyes at night.
Anyone know of Vietnam's take on McCain's presidential bid? (And his changes/loss of mind.)
Vietnam-Iraqi Relationships :
http://www.mofa.gov.vn/en/cn_vakv/nr040830134623/nr040819102927/ns040920143138/view
PM Khai meets the McCain-Kerry hybrid:
http://www.mofa.gov.vn/en/nr040807104143/nr040807105001/ns050624142949/view
I am tired of hearing about McCain's heroism. He dropped bombs (perhaps napalm and agent orange too) on defenceless people. This is not heroism. It is murder.
"My view is that McCain is at core, crazy. I am so tired of crazy old white men."
I agree with sansf that this is the case - McCain is mentally disturbed, probably from his years of captivity and mistreatment in Vietnam. Iraq is a proxy for Vietnam, or in the words of Rambo, "Do we get to win this time?" I think he will go to the ends of the earth, no matter what the cost, to achieve whatever confused and fearful nonsense he calls "victory". Whatever that is, even if he could rationally define it, is impossible to achieve, as the world in which a major military and economic power like the United States could waltz into what we like to describe as a "third world shithole" and impose its will ended 30 or 40 years ago. And so this dingbat who degraded and dishonored himself sucking up to George Wanker Bush will continue to take this nation down the rabbit hole of national disgrace and decline. Our tragedy seems to have no end.
What about the torture issue? How can he condone torture when he was a victim of torture? He is either a hypocrit, or very forgetful, or his mind has been affected.
"This proves the definition of insanity which is doing the same thing the same way over and over again and expecting a different outcome this time."
The only different outcome for the "insane" corporate war profiteers is making more money off of each war.
These so-called war heroes like McCain are very sick people. How can anybody who has seen war be sane if you want more.
Amazing how quickly McCain forgot the pain, fear and devastation of war --- He turned in those hours for selfish power in any form that he can attain it. If that means continuing the Bush legacy...then so be it. It's quite amazing that he, of all people, lacks compassion for our soldiers. He must have some psychological issues after going through what he went through as a POW, and this is what scares me if he should ever be president. My father is a Vietnam vet, and had a terrible time. I know what this does to the mind.
John Kerry also bothered me in a different way. A Vietnam Vet turned Anti-Vietnam War demonstrator, but for some reason did not have the guts to stand up to Bush on the war issue during the 2004 elections. Any ding bat on the street could give Bush a run for his money in the eloquent/ speech and debate department. Was it lack of guts or are the democratics just simply the opposite side of the same coin: republicans...tails - Democrates...heads.
My question for McCain is, "Why?"
"The Powell Doctrine sets out requirements for U.S. engagement in a military conflict. Included in the criteria are U.S. public support, clear objectives, and the use of overwhelming military force."
But then 'military conflict' isn't what this Corporate/Cheney/Bush war is all about. It's obviously all about plundering the U.S. treasury, borrowing to the hilt and to devastate any country that might withstand an Israeli assault. Mission Acomplished?
As far as I can see all three contenders for Kommander in Thief are singing from the same Psalter.
"Add that McCain votes will be counted correctly, and will probably be counted 'correctly' more than once."
And, I could add, it won't even matter if you died -- they'll still count them.
We don't need another president who uses the office and the flesh and bones of other human beings to out-do or live up to Good Old, or Bad Old Dad. We know about Cowboy George, and we should be well warned away from John McCain, who I have long believed is trying to make Vietnam turn out "right". He doesn't understand that you can't unlose the Vietnam War, no matter whether you stay 100 or 1,000,000 in Iraq.
An earlier writer was spot on when he said that McCain did not experience the battlefield horrors of war--he overflew them. He deserves admiration for withstanding 5 years of torture as a prisoner, but that does no more prepare him to make sane foreign policy than living for 8 yrs. (if you can call it that) in the White House as Bill Clinton's wife qualifies her to be president.
BTW, will somebody PLEASE, the next time Obama is asked why he didn't leave his church when he learned of Pastor Wright's comments, ASK, even rhetorically, why Catholics didn't leave a church where the clergymen didn't just talk, they sexually abused kids? Instead, people are grovelling in gratitude that Ratzinger, who used to be known as the Popes Rottweiler, even acknowledged the pain of the victims and their families?
Can we just agree that we all have the right to our own beliefs, or non-beliefs and leave them out of the governance of this country? I happily stipulate that we have that right, I don't care how silly anyone's beliefs may be, mine included, just live by them and stop trying to make the rest of them do and think as you do, folks. The first step in that direction is to admit that contrary to Mitt Romneys silliness, you CAN TOO have freedom without religion!
With MISSION ACCOMPLISHED Bush was actually correct. At that point, we had accomplished all that we could with military force -- blowing things and people up. The Military can not build a government, win the hearts and minds, or "win" in any of these arenas. The Military is designed for and excellent at blowing things up. Period.
Otherwise, "win" is an open ended invitation to occupy an oil-producing county.
Slightly off topic, but: does anyone else suspect that the extreme Right (Limbaugh, the pundits, etc.) being so "upset" about McCain as the nominee ("He's not a TRUE conservative") is really just a ploy to make him appear "independent" and more liberal.....to distract from the reality that he is actually very much a right-wing extremist (and a hawk of the craziest type), so that badly-informed independents and centrists and somewhat-left-leaning voters will feel comfortable voting for him?
Personally, I wouldn't put it past them. There are just so many layers of propaganda and lies within truths and truths within lies and intentional distractions, etc..... it is designed to just confuse everyone!
Interesting that John McCain's father helped to cover-up the attack on the US Liberty by Israelis. Now, that is a great skeleton to drag out of the closet. Too bad we don't make Israel a state so they can only have 2 senators. Why is everyone so fond of Israel?
Maybe McCain is the "Manchurian Candidate". Who knows what the boys in Hanoi did to him. Even his own mother never asked him. She was worried that he wouldn't be able to brush his teeth. The man was damaged by his experiences in the POW camp. Although I feel compassion for his suffering, I do not think that being tortured and approving torture are the qualifications of a president. Torture makes people crazy.
Iraq "is" Vietnam if you understand the history of American empire. Once we'd conquered the Native peoples we "had" to go elsewhere to get that crucial economic jolt (somebody else's wealth) to make it seem that capitalism works. It never has, doesn't, won't. Vietnam spoke for Asia and said "Fuck off, parasites." And Iraq, I hope, will be the last place where we have to learn what all the Europeans already learned in near-endless blood. Then we can feel "successful" by spending more time with our kids, as Europeans do....
This really confuses me:
"[McCain] served in the military in the aftermath of defeat and saw first-hand how difficult it was to recruit and retain personnel to keep aircraft flying and so on," said Scheunemann.
But Shecter complains that McCain and Scheunemann have it backwards; it is the Iraq war itself that has weakened U.S. military forces rather than the spectre of defeat.
"By any real measure, the military is so unprepared right now because of the war that John McCain and George Bush and their allies thrust upon us," said Schecter. "We're much more dangerously overstretched than anything close to where we were back then."
Didn't US forces bomb Iraq back to the stone age? Didn't they invade and defeat any remining Iraqi Republican Army troops? Didn't they capture the bad guys and execute big bad Saddam? Didn't they in fact win? Didn't Bush declare "Mission Accomplished"?
So 'winning' has nothing to do with it. Could McCain really be that dumb?
Yes, he could be that dumb, or senile.
This article states without any proof that Johnny "Straight Lies" underwent torture. If I F Stone were alive, he would have looked into it to see if it was the kind of torture those "terrible Communists" inflicted on Americans in the Korean War, mainly trying to make "our boys" love Joseph Stalin. Furthermore, this article seems to have conveniently neglected to talk about how the US Navy's chief plane crasher got up to the rank of Captain, the equivalent of the rank of full colonel in the army or air force after crashing so many navy planes other than the fact that he was the son and grandson of two big time navy admirals, thus McCain was a legacy dawg!
nothing but a mouth piece for the military industrial complex
best to hang in public now as a traitor,
war hero, for what?
Budweiser, marlboro,coca cola, and grenade sales in Vietnam
WW2 was last of any meaning, maybe
see END GAME on you tube, you foolish USA 'sheeples'
wake the fuck up
What's this "war hero" crap? Dropping bombs on people and then being shot down by them and imprisoned for war crimes does not make one a hero. Field Marshall Herman Goering was a First World War ace, like the Red Baron or our own Eddie Rickenbacker. Should we call Goering a war hero?
I'm really sick of militarism.
I left out the fact that McCain's of captain is the equivalent of a full colonel in the marines. That's a damn disgrace,
sansf; my daughter turns 18 October 3rd and she'll be voting for Obama....
But I wonder.... suppose Senator McCain suffered a little anurysim, a spetite troke....maybe a mild heart attack these next 6-7 months? Bum-mer
Obama '08 Plus Richardson.
Hewoah - Probably all of us think that a different script is being written. Funny that Cheney didn't go away last year so GWB could annoint Jeb.
mikepeters - happy Oct. birthday to your daughter, and to Hilary's 3 a.m. child actor (18 this month) who is an Obama precinct captain. I wonder how well McCain's blood circulates. I guess he stays out of the sun, but I see him and I think of that movie Powder.
Lots of wild cards left.
In my idea of a morally sane political culture, the morally best might not often get to rule, but at least it is understood that the morally worst are never to be allowed to rule at all.
But in this country anymore, we rarely get a chance to even know who the best are or might be; we seem dedicated to pre-selecting the generally worst mediocrities and misfits we can find, and then, more often than not, go on to finally elect the worst of the worst from among them.
Obama might be an exception to this hardening rule, but since most other Democrats are only pale exceptions to it if at all, what would a President Obama have to work with: An Enlightened Citizenry...? Please...!
On the other hand, McCain and virtually the entire GOP are the apotheosis of this rule: the manifest inversion of the law of moral natural seclection -- where the worst of the worst rise to the top by absolutely intended design.
In a non-sane political culture, maybe all you can vote for is the least worst hope.
That might be Obama, but it also could be Nader, or even YOU.
Richard M. Nixon:
IROTFLMAO :D
In re: "I don't hold him accountable for anything he said right after returning from Vietnam;' Author, blogger, and political consultant Cliff Schecter told IPS, citing the stress and trauma of the long captivity"
WHy the hell shouldn't McTurd have been held responsible, Mr. Schecter?
Why should that walking pile of crap be given a free pass simply because "he just got back?" Released POWs were assigned high priority status and were Med-Evaced to military hospitals in Japan, (Yokohama, Yokuska, et al). They were rehabed (physical, emotional, psychological) and convalesced for a period of some months; eventually MCVed back to CONUS.
As a POW, McPain spent considerable time adjusting to "civvy life" so that by the time he was back stateside, he could easily chew gum, wipe his ass and shave, et al. At that point, Capt. Mcpain was deemed lucid enough to be held accountable for his wopds and deeds.
Nice try Schecter but your reasoning just doesn't fly.
McCain is nothing but another kool-aide drinker from the right-wing. Why would anyone vote republican, anyway?
Endless War?
Enormous war debt?
Skyrocketing foreclosures?
Tremendous job loss?
Outsourcing?
Staggering debt?
A devastated economy?
Shaky Wall Street?
War Crimes?
Crimes against Humanity?
Corruption?
Lack of medical care?
Scorched earth politics?
Lack of consumer safety regulatory commissions?
Sky-high gas prices?
Violation of Constitutional Rights?
Politicians who are "Above the Law?"
Federal agencies unable to respond to emergencies (FEMA)?
Signing statements?
Why would anyone vote republican? Why?
Freud's definition of neurosis, to paraphrase, it occurs when the individual makes his problem his solution.
An example: a market fundamentalist who advocates tax cuts for the rich/corporations, more privatization, more "free" trade and increased deregulation in response to exponentially growing numbers of market failures.
Samski, I have lived and taught in South Vietnam for over three years now. From my students, I hear that most of them would like to see Obama as the next president.
The people of this land are some of the most caring and helpful people of all the various nations I have lived in; not traveled to for a few months, but have lived in.
The only reason I mention this is because I would not want to return to South America where the hatred of those from the USA is often quite visible. They don't forget easily.
Perhaps in Vietnam it is their Bhuddist believe system. What happened in the past is done and over with. They move on to the next day.
I find this very refreshing. Past injustices are not forgotten but they are seen for what they are: the past. It is the present which is important. What we are doing right now is important.
Choosing to be a hired killer, or even just a killer out of appreciation for the country that made your family rich and powerful generates a lot of baaaad karma.
The Machurian Candidate !
McCain is still suffering from PTSD. He has been treated for the condition in the past and most likely still is. People should demand to know this secret of his. He still doesn't forgive himself for breaking under the NVA interrogations. The medals he received were "boilerplate" awards and part of an SOP medal package given to repatriated (Vietnamera) POWs. I'll wager the "grunts" didn't receive them.
He wasn't that good a pilot and would have "washed out" if it weren't for his daddy. the Admiral. After the war he went to the War College to study about Vietnam. He didn't have the rank to attend but daddy Admiral got him in anyway. Johnny boy was born with the "Silver Anchor" in his mouth, destined for Naval duty from birth, but didn't quite live up to the expectations of his daddy and granddaddy - "The Admirals."
When he was shot down over Hanoi, he didn't hold himself properly upon ejection. As a result he was knocked unconscious and broke both arms and a leg in the process. He was dragged out of a lake he fell into and was beaten my a mob of Vietnamese who stabbed him and smashed in his shoulder. He was near death from his injuries when the NVA picked him up. He didn't get them from being tortured.
After the war and when the NVA turned over POW files to the US. It was John Kerry and John McCain who fought to have the files sealed forever using a phoney pretext. So the question is, what is McCain trying to hide? What happened that has made him a mental case? The people should demand a closer look at this guy.
Boots made some of the comments I was thinking of making while reading the thread.....
http:// www.vietnamveteransagains...in_hacker_2.htm
"...in exchange for better medical treatment, McCain violated the code of conduct just four days after being captured on Oct. 26, 1967........ McCain admitted (in 1973) that he exchanged military information in order to spend six weeks in a hospital normally reserved for North Vietnamese military officers. McCain continued to collaborate with the Communists after he recovered from his injuries and he did a number of propaganda broadcasts....."
There are quite a few sites you can find with " McCain no war hero" some may just be swift boat type rumors but what if any of it is just plain true?