That's alright. When the US tied and controlled Mexican economy goes belly up in recession alongside our very own, these workers can tell other Mexican workers how grand a place the US really is, and how very respectful of human rights the US is, too.

Workers of The World Unite!

"Their crime? Leaving their homes and everything they've ever known in search of opportunity for their families and crossing the treacherous desert boarder between the US and Mexico..."

A crime IS taking place, that we on the left seem determined to ignore. There is a legal system of immigration, used by over one million people in 2007 alone, people who exert the time, effort and expense to come to the US through legal channels. Demanding the same rights for those who do so illegally is a slap in the face to legal immigrants.

So many liberals always bring into the debate the nonsense about how they are all for 'legal' immigration and against 'illegal'. Who do you think these 'legal' immigrants often are, Krisleahutch? They often are the henchmen and death squad types the US military allies itself when they are disrupting other societies in a most illegal manner, one might add.

When the US stays out of other countries affairs, that's when we should take this preaching about legality and illegality in immigration a little bit more seriously. Until then, liberals who preach roundup are pretty suspect liberals IMO.

A facet of the immigration noise rarely mentioned is its' supply and demand aspect. The supply is the overabundance of Third World nations who seem to only excel at repressing their own people and forcing their most industrious to leave. The demand is from American business that is addicted to cheap, exploitable labor. Unless both the supply and demand is properly addressed, this will never be resolved in any meaningful manner. BTW: Europe has this problem as well.

"They often are the henchmen and death squad types the US military allies itself when they are disrupting other societies in a most illegal manner, one might add"

Are you serious? Legal immigrants are henchman and death squad types? And those who take issue with illegal immigrants are the one placing stereotypes right?

I am at this moment sitting next to 2 legal immigrants - one from Zimbabwe who came here with her sisters for a better education. The other from the Phillipines who brought her children here for the same reasons. The process was long and arduous, and they both find it incredibly offensive that the argument is not about improving the legal channels but removing them for those who choose not to use them.

Does anyone know what happens to the business owners who hire illegal immigrants? I never hear about that in the news.

I believe there are fine structures depending on the magnitude of the problem and the lack of compliance with accepted practice, a least some of which can be avoided if hiring and legal status verification is "outsourced" to a private company which can then of course declare bankruptcy ... or if record-keeping is "faulty" ...

I worked at a 2000+ employee hospital in southern California when mandatory status verification came into place -- hospitals, like schools and municipal services, etc. as large employers that receive federal funds are often under more strict requirements than private industry and often have other background check requirements ...

My guess is that the verification expectation gets smaller as the size of the business gets smaller and with various "employment status" classifications -- hourly, per diem, outside contractor.

My guess is that a second, third, fourth conviction would have worse fines ... rather like income tax noncompliance -- but that, like most white collar crimes, it takes a long time to resolve and plea deals are made to save legal/court costs all around.

When I applied for a Driver's License when I moved to Colorado, there were, irrc, 15 names attached to my SSN in their computer, none of which had I ever worked under ... I realized later they were probably entered by people using "my" SSN on work documents ... or something similar. No one at the DMV was remotely surprised or interested, they just wiped them off their record.

When I worked for the Dept of Labor (before Bush the Inferior) we had an annual "task force" to investigate the pay practices in chicken processing plants. We did this every year because the firms continued to underpay and overwork their employees. Some of these employees were illegal aliens, so the firms probably felt they could take advantage of them. Every year we'd get the firms to pay some part of the back wages they owed, and every year they'd owe some more, usually for a slightly different violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938. No fines, no trials - they were just supposed to pay employees and ex-employees we could locate (good luck in most cases) some percentage of the legal wages they did not pay them over a two-year period. If they underpaid for ten years they were statutorily liable only for two. My ex-co-workers still under DOL employ tell me that enforcement is virtually at a stand-still under GWB.

a previous Common Dreams article on the Wal-Mart bust:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1105-12.htm

(contactors imported "illegal aliens" from Europe to work for them to fulfill Wal-Mart contracts)

A webpage called "mondaq" with what looks like a really good outline of the evolution of the laws and enforcement (some resolutions and fines mentioned)

http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=50104

wcdevins,

Thanks for the most important insight of the issue of enforcement regarding illegal aliens.

We have no business at all "raiding" workplaces to arrest the workers. We have every reason to be "raiding" workplaces to seize the accounting records, insist on the proper PAYMENTS to workers (even if aliens), and focus on fining employers who hired the aliens---if that's the present law.

I still believe most of the immigration issue would solve itself if we enacted an especially high minimum wage payable to any workers here illegally from outside the country. Pay the workers that high wage now or pay the difference later to government as a fine on every hour worked--with no statute of limitation. All enforcement by IRS and DOL on paperwork using the mis-matched Soc. Sec. numbers and withholding. We have immigrants because incorporated employers are permitted to create and maintain a magnet. They get cheap labor. Society gets the ills of having impoverished immigrants all over the place. It's nuts. And it doesn't have to be so.

I'm with you, Daniel David and wcdevins. Illegal immigration would be much less a problem if we created and enforced fair wage laws.

As long as we differentiate between illegal and legal aliens......

Wait a sec, as long as we differentiate between 'them' and us, we are guilty of subservience to our corporate masters the rich elite who are using this topic as one way to deflect attention away from the problems they are taking advantage of.

From another CD article, Bob K writes:

A few points left out by those who would justify corporate insourcing of low-wage replacement workers (neo-slavery):

Illegal migrant workers are not paid $20/hour. More like $7-$10/hr (with no benefits), depending on the number of illegal workers available. Much less for agricultural workers like those in this story. These are indeed slave wages.

Such wages are "competitive" only because U.S. dollars are worth eight times as much in Mexico and Central America as they are here, because in most cases no income and FICA taxes are withheld, because healthcare, housing, food stamps and other assistance are provided by U.S. taxpayers, and because migrants are willing to live in barracks-like conditions until they return to their home countries. Law abiding U.S. citizens, whose permanent home is the U.S., can not feed their families on such wages. Furthermore, government assistance is often available to "immigrants" on a priority basis, and is not available to settled citizens.

Businesses which knowingly employ illegal migrant workers are scoff-laws committing federal crimes. The only reason they are not prosecuted is that the Bush regime chooses not to prosecute.

Businesses which knowingly accept false or stolen U.S. documents from illegal migrant workers are complicit in another federal crime: identity theft.

Businesses employing illegal migrants gain an unfair competitive advantage over law-abiding businesses, often forcing them to choose between also hiring neo-slaves or going out of business.

Businesses employing illegal migrants are knowingly forcing U.S. taxpayers to subsidize their labor costs.

Businesses employing illegal migrants are harming their local economies (and the U.S. economy), because dollars sent out of the country by their employees are not spent in their communities, do not circulate and multiply, and do not have any stimulating effect — they have the opposite effect.

In industry after industry, we have examples where the work was originally done by U.S. citizen/residents who were then replaced by low-wage replacement illegal migrants, and then following legal or regulatory actions was again done by U.S. citizens — with little effect on prices and a stimulating effect on local economies.

It is not "compassionate" to take the bread from the mouths of one man's family to give to another's.

As the economy continues to falter, expect these 'crackdowns' to accelerate. Municipalities will run out of tax revenue to provide for the ever-increasing demand for social services, so crackdowns might well be initiated by local law enforcement (as is already happening in some places).

Without any kind of intervention, the immigrant flood will, sooner or later equalize, and many will not regard the outcome as desirable. One thing is for sure, and this may be the least of our concerns, it will continue to exert a downward pressure on wages. For immigration to succeed it must commence in an orderly fashion; otherwise, it is likely to lead to eventual social unrest.

Does anyone know what happens to the business owners who hire illegal immigrants? I never hear about that in the news.

--I know, and isn't that strange?

Border walls. Border fences. "Minute Men." Citizenship papers. "Guest" workers. "Your papers please." Come. Clean our homes. Clean our buildings. Mow our lawns. Pick our food. Serve us food. Be our nannies. Fight and die in our wars. Fix. Build. Pay taxes. Rights? HA! The economy's bad? It's your fault. Crime? It's YOU! Criminal. Terrorist. Go HOME! Illegal. Foreigner. Apartheid in South Africa. Apartheid in Palestine. Apartheid in the Americas.

TIAUI RAZA

This is absurd. First, you are putting the interests of foreign nationals ahead of the interests of American citizens, ahead of your own children?

Second,why you are so determined to exploit these poor people along with your Corporate friends? I don't understand that type of thinking. You enjoy seeing them kept at the Factory like in Eustace? You like having them get paid a pittance because they can't complain? You are in favor of some of the ladies offering it up for your Corporate friends because they are scared not to?

It really irritates me to hear you exploiters talk about anti-immigrant this or that when you can't find a real example of it. You'll find a ton of anti-illegal immigrant feelings and attitudes. Dishonest people say immigrant when they mean illegal-immigrant.

"work long hours for low pay at a poultry processing plant where, according to an expose from the Charlotte Observer worker protections are lax and severe injuries are common. The Charlotte Observer series is littered with stories and images of workers crippled by their duties, and stories of management cutting corners not only on safety but on appropriate medical treatments when problems do arise.

Remind me who the evil-doers are?"

I'll be happy to. Its the business's and the people that aid business to exploit these people that are the evil doers. If you advocate corruption, breaking the law in order to increase your friends profits....and even if you don't get any real money you are still a fellow traveler and just as guilty as the scum that take advantage of weak willed people on both sides of the border.

By the way Chessgames, both those last two posts were absolutely correct. And the slime that employ and exploit these poor people deserve to see the inside of a jail cell for at least 5 years and a hefty fine based on their pay. Or we could just take them to the Border, give them a gallon of water and send them over the Desert trails the illegals die on. I'd choose #2 myself.

In Texas by the way, an illegal immigrant costs Texans a bit over $2000 per year, per illegal over and above any and all taxes they pay. Its really expensive labor for Americans.

American's do stand together. Always have. But you can't become an American just by jumping the border or because someone wants to exercise their greed.

Thanks, Thomas, I think many have their hearts in the right place, but are not really seeing the whole picture of how they are supporting the status quo of exploitation and, especially that these businesses are laughing all the way to the bank--ultimately at their expense.

Actually, there are lots of people here legally who speak little or no English and there are lots of people here "illegally" who are not Hispanic … and there are people who are here "illegally" because of arcane and unfair bureaucracy …

I recall having what I call my own "wake up" moment in around 1975 in downtown Los Angeles. I was trying to get to the San Fernando Valley from Cal State Los Angeles which is about 10 miles east of downtown — It was mid-day — I suddenly realized I had no idea where I was. I was used to taking the Pasadena freeway or the San Diego freeway, but I was expecting to hit the Hollywood freeway … but I didnt' — anyway, I felt I was going in the WRONG direction .. I got off the freeway (south of the mountains) and was relieved to find myself in a residential area … with gas stations .. I pulled into one, and then the next and finally a third, and found no one who spoke English … oh, they didn't speak Spanish either … I'm pretty sure they were Southeast asians — Vietnamese, Thai, Cambodian. I was briefly incensed that I could get no-help-at-all (my French and Spanish language skills were useless), then I realized that the reason no one spoke English was because no one NEEDED to speak English to stay in business…

I gather there are lots of places in America that have never had a "hispanic community" until the last decade. I grew up in a "hispanic neighborhood" … and, yes, I feel a very personal protectiveness and anger that they are being scapegoated in this opportunistic "illegal immigrant" issue …

If you read up, there are other cadres "illegal workers" much more worthy of outrage (like those imported by others just for the purpose) but again, usually it's not the workers, but rather the "coyote", the pimps, the procurer … and there are plenty of folks — Irish and English and French and Indian and Pakistani, even Israeli and and and who want to try for the American golden ring — they're not "escaping" poverty — they're just opportunists who — because they're not hispanic — can quite easily get "lost" for a long long time…. there are many many many people in this country who "overstayed their tourist visa"

Yes, I resent like hell the special targeting of the hispanic "illegals" who — yes — because of their lack of skills are to be found in our — OUR — worst industries … and — even those here legally, even second and third genrations — get to live lives of uncertainty and occasional terror that most other ethnic "illegal" populations do not. I recall Chinese and Japanese second generations, similarly were assumed to be "just off the boat" …

I have read that much to most of what ALL illegal workers make is spent locallly on living expenses — food, rent, telephone … the less folks make, the greater the percentage .. duh…

Oh, and most of those working with fake papers ARE paying into the system… they won't ever collect that social security contribution or directly benefit from that income tax they pay … but they're paying it.

How this "problem" is viewed is very much in the eye of the beholder … however, anyone scapegoating the low-skilled hispanic migrant or manual laborer, male or female, the chicken gutter, the bus boy, or hotel maid, needs a brisk slap upside the head, imho.

Todo esto es loco. Supuestamente hay una guerra contra terroristas pero si facilmente dejan que muchas agencias de viajes practiquen ley de inmigracion, en Nueva Jersey, sin cerrarlos, sin licencia y en violacion de la ley...sin abogado. No hacen nada. Los pobres inmigrantes son abusados por muchas de estas agencias de viajes y despues amenazados. Yo llame la policia, no les importa. Yo llame los fiscales, no hicieron nada. Informe a la agencia del estado, no hacen nada. pendejos.

The same congressional majority that voted to "ciminalize" undocumented workers, is the same one that approved this illegal war in Iraq, passed all kinds of laws that favor their corporate friends over the average American, be it in bankrupcy laws, lawsuit award limits of $250,000, no medicine price-bargaining rights for Medicare( VA, almost them too), conducted no hearings whatsoever regarding all the misdeeds alleged of this admin,(and those that did, had to meet in basement janitors closets with no subpoena powers). But, thank God they no longer have that majority. Let's keep it that wHowever, the damage has been done, and it will take a loooong time for the new mostly, decent-minded DEM majority to undo the self-serving mischief they have caused,....if ever.

Safiyyah wrong. Majority of legal immigrants are not death squad leaders as you claim. They are usually ordinary people fleeing a bad situation. My Afghan in-laws all had to emigrate from Afghanistan due to the Soviet invasion and later the civil war and Taliban. They were civilian victims of war not its perpetrators. Here in DC I've met taxi cab-drivers from Somalia, Eritrea and elsewhere also legal immigrants to the US who fled war zones and waited years to get here. Many of them were doctors and lawyers back home and now working blue-collar jobs here. I know Iraqis who claimed asylum here via the legal process. I am not for granting illegal immigrants legal status here just because of economics...there are people in far worse situations who go through our legal system to get here and deserve their spots more. I really don't care if I get flamed on this one because I've seem so many people struggle to be granted green cards and their citizenships in this city the legal way and they waited years to do so and have often paid thousands of dollars in legal fees. I appreciate the fact they haven't broken the laws to do so and have worked hard to learn English and about America to pass thier green card and citizenship exams.

This is not about immigration; it's about racism. When we refer to it as "immigration policy" we invite racists to use the counter argument, "But they are in fact breaking the law".

Yeah, they're breaking the law. They're breaking a racist law. Would you care to remind the US government of the numerous Native American treaties it has violated, which were racist in their intent anyway? Or the very moral decision of the Dred Scott case, very much the law, but that's also not the point.

I am sick and tired of hearing all this CRAP about illegal immigration. Last time I checked, unless a person is Native American, we're all here illegally. Being that European invaders stole this land from Native Americans and then divided it up into various countries (e.g., Canada, the United States, Mexico, etc.) oh so long ago. Thus, Native folks from Mexico are actually the ones who are NOT illegal. And, generally speaking, the folks with the biggest problem with so called illegal immigrants are -- illegal immigrants themselves.

But it's perfect capitalism! What are you complaining about? It keeps costs down to a minimum, cheaper than that old institution, slavery. So you work the workers to near death, no labour laws or health standards, and on payday, you call in the immigration-swat team to have them all arrested. The taxpayer will handle the rest of the costs from there on, happily, because he's been pumped full of anti-immigrant propaganda.

And in a day or two, a whole new wave of willing slaves will wash in and take their place.

A thing of beauty - you want cheap chickenburgers, don't you?

HAHAHAHA!!!! mexicans are NATIVE to Mexico. ask an Apache. those of us who belong to tribes which ARE from the USA say to the reconquistas "We will happily kick your cannibal butts AGAIN. GO HOME"

El Bravo- Amazing how High School French can give me the gist of your post.

justvegan-a small part of my genetic make-up is native american (blessed me with great cheekbones)-does that count?

Anyway, I don't see the point in punishing the workers/families. If we are going to have laws to "crack down" on illegal immigration, we need to go to the source-the businesses who are all about profits and as consumers, realize that below norm wages for these folks is why our goods/labor have been so cheap.

And then again, we were ALL illegal immigrants who took a continent away from the Natives.
And there have been waves of immigration to this country to escape horrors in other places. The trick is that we must not become like the other oppressive nations around the globe.
Or is it too late for that?

I say to all those pro 'illegal immigration' put up the funds to support one or more of them. Become a sponsor and take responsibility for their being here, and pay the medical bills and other necessities (which we are already paying through our taxes) their employers wont pay. Also, don't forget the application fees and forms, and trips to your local immigration processing center (or do you believe that they should be able to bypass that part? If so, that should really go over well with those who have already gone through it).

Hey, and I'm sure they'll be more than glad to clean your house or mow your lawn in return.

Yeah, that's what I thought. You're for it as long as it doesn't cost you anything. Hate to break it to you, but many border states are beginning to feel the pinch. Schools are over crowded, and going to year-round schedules to handle the growing influx of new students. Certain hospitals and social services are have difficulty just keeping up--while certain businesses rake in the profits.

If you are for illegal immigration, you are also for this, whether you want to be or not. Likewise, you may be for what you condemn others for: oppression and exploitation. Why? Because that's what happening to many (most?) of these workers.

Think about it.

I'm always amazed at the befuddling array of responses that articles like this one inspire. To wit:

1. America is wonderful. Because America is wonderful, the "American Dream" should be freely available to anyone who can manage to get here by whatever means.

Strangely, those who make this fluffy argument in the same breath will denounce the deplorable treatment of illegal immigrants by American businesses, citizens and the American government. Perhaps this is representative of the strange paradox that is America...both wonderful and horrible, depending upon one's perspective. In any case, this argument flies in the face of any country's right to defend its sovereignty and exert control over immigration, whether permanent or temporary, and population growth. America, like every other country in the world, has a finite supply of resources. It is ridiculous to argue that America, or any other country, should have open, unregulated borders.

2. Those who oppose illegal immigration are racists.

Well, let's take a look at the numbers: In March 2006, the estimated number of illegal immigrants in the United States was 11.5-12 million individuals. Of that number, 57% came from Mexico, 24% came from Central and South America, 9% came from Asia, 6% came from Europe and Canada, and 4% came from other countries (Pew Hispanic Center, 2006, & GAO, 2006). Based upon these numbers, 81% of illegal immigrants are Hispanic. Furthermore, the government of Mexico both encourages and benefits from illegal immigration, producing comic books to assist its citizens in avoiding detection by border patrols and immigration officials. Mexico has the highest income per capita of all Latin American countries (World Bank, 2007), yet almost half the country's population lives in poverty. In 2003, the former President of Mexico, Vicente Fox, stated that remittances of Mexican nationals in the United States, both legal and illegal, totaled $12 billion, and were the largest source of foreign income for Mexico. To argue, therefore, that opposition to illegal immigration reflects a latent racism against Hispanics by Americans is disingenuous. The opposition is to those who would circumvent our immigration laws, the majority of whom happen to be Hispanic.

3. Illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans don't want to do, and therefore have no impact on the ability of Americans to find work.

Wrong again. Here are the stat's from the Center for Immigration Studies (Sept. 2006):

Between 2000 and 2005, 4.1 million immigrant workers arrived from abroad, accounting for 86 percent of the net increase in the total number of employed persons (16 and older), the highest share ever recorded in the United States.

Of the 4.1 million new immigrant workers, between 1.4 and 2.7 million are estimated to be illegal immigrants. This means that illegal immigrants accounted for up to 56 percent of the net increase in civilian employment in the United States over the past five years.

Between 2000 and 2005, the number of young (16 to 34) native-born men who were employed declined by 1.7 million; at the same time, the number of new male immigrant workers increased by 1.9 million.

Multivariate statistical analyses show that the probability of teens and young adults (20-24) being employed was negatively affected by the number of new immigrant workers (legal and illegal) in their state.

The negative impacts tended to be larger for younger workers, for in-school youth compared to out-of-school youth, and for native-born black and Hispanic males compared to their white counterparts.

It appears that employers are substituting new immigrant workers for young native-born workers. The estimated sizes of these displacement effects were frequently quite large.

The increased hiring of new immigrant workers also has been accompanied by important changes in the structure of labor markets and employer-employee relationships. Fewer new workers, especially private-sector wage and salary workers, are ending up on the formal payrolls of employers, where they would be covered by unemployment insurance, health insurance, and worker protections.

4. Our immigration laws are broken and are not providing enough opportunities for people from other countries to immigrate to the United States legally.

Umm, I don't think so. According the U.S. Census Bureau's population statistics (2006), the United States adds about 2.8 million people each year, 40% of which is the result of immigration. In fact, the United States admits more legal immigrants than all other countries combined.

The problem of illegal immigration is multi-faceted, with plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the border. Our government has been lax in enforcing our immigration laws, particularly against employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants. The government of Mexico has been unwilling to fulfill its promises to invest in the kind of infrastructure and development that will bring economic relief to its citizens, and complicit in encouraging illegal immigration to the United States. Activists like the author of this article play only on the emotions of readers, ignoring the legitimate concerns of American citizens about the very real impact illegal immigration has on our economy, public education, health care, employment and social services.

Thank you grumpyoldlady for that wonderful stat-filled post! It always helps to see the bigger picture, and how Mexico is complicit with us in maintaining the the rich/poor disparity there. That is another thing those who promote illegal immigration support (unknowingly). And Mexico promotes it for another obvious reason: the billions that are pumped into its economy from workers slaving over here.

This is consistent with the way the Bush Administration has been selling us out economically at every turn.

Our forefathers, in their wisdom, formed this great republic and created a Constitution of the United States of America. This is our law of the land. No where does it say that you can come here from another country to work and support your family back home. If you wish to come to The United States of America, then do so and join with the Americans that came here legally. Learn english and become one of the many that came before you. Learn our way of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do not come here to take from US. We welcome all whom come here LEGALLY. We have laws, as stated by the Constitution, that WE ALL LIVE BY. Why do we Americans continue to make excuses for those that came here to better their families, etc, etc, etc. Time to WAKE UP AMERICA. Stop the bleeding and start being an AMERCIAN. Not a hyphenated American, an AMERICAN. Not as an excuse, but the greedy employer only gets away with this because of the greedy ILLEGAL ALIEN that only sees the dollar$ that will be lost if they report the employer. Besides how can someone here illegally speak up anyway. So stop the greedy employers and the government giveaways and you will see how quickly the illegals will depart. See OK, GA, AZ as example. Stop making excuses and allowing this to continue.

Stepman, while I agree with much of your post, I'd like to say the workers coming here are likely more desperate than greedy, and they are just being used as the pawns of the elite--on both sides of the border.

I don't see anyone here -- including the author of this piece -- advocating open borders ... the article addresses and abhors the use of these ghastly raids, rounding up the workers ...

I grew up in Southern California and I have heard all of these alarms literally my whole life ... the overcrowded schools, the overtaxed medical services ... as far as I can tell only the "health hazards posed to the rest of us by all those folks living so crowded" has been left out ...

These workers would not be entering the country if the jobs were not so freely available ... PERIOD.

The United State is hardly the only country in the world with this problem. All of Europe is a destination for mass economic migration. They come because there are jobs.

It is fascinating that the 1986 laws to require verification of status were followed by such a surge of illegal entry. While certainly agriculture has used massive seasonal importation of workers (who went home after the season was over) it is striking that there is so much work available now year round, in so many industries, and -- I have read -- the tighter border controls have discouraged many from going home, it's simply too dangerous, expensive, etc.

Worsening economic conditions in Mexico have exacerbated the problems, certainly, and not all those hispanics are Mexican, god knows.

People are going to do what they need to do to support their families ... punish the employers, tighten the border ... but rounding up hundreds workers, usually the legal along with the undocumented, holding them sometimes for days, traumatizing them and their families, is a tactic that has been used for years ... it obviously has no long-term effect and it's degrading and brutal ...

time to try something else, no?

Until we all start becoming citizens of the world, and recognizing the necessity of that, then we as the "haves" condemn the "have-nots" to continue to struggle in poverty. Yes, that is starry-eyed idealism, but it is also the truth.
Our country uses, and in fact upholds, the poverty of others, both in and out of our country. It is time to look at the real problem of terrible oppression and poverty, and begin world-wide dialogues, and find practical and workable solutions. Support of and education about birth control would certainly be a good beginning, but the United States no longer does this.
Because of our involvement in Iraq, we have created immigrant problems in that area. There are too many people in need and in desparate circumstances in this world, and building fences to keep them in those circumstances is not going to help anyone. Finding good solutions will help, but it will have to be done by an administration that holds no resemblance to the present one.
As far as entering legally and becoming a citizen, that is not always possible because of finances and restrictions.
Man's inhumanity to man is always present, but it is always shocking to find it on this "liberal" site.

mlee, we cannot do it alone. Other countries must work to reduce the disparates between classes (much like Chavez is trying to do). We will quickly become 'have-nots' ourselves if we suddenly open our borders to everyone everywhere.

The standard of living would certainly equalize, but to much lower standard for most, as profits continue to be funneled to the top. In that regard, we must think with our heads as well as our hearts. If we continue like we are at present, exploitation will only increase and lead to social destabilization. Practical considerations aren't always pretty, but necessary, as you know while trying to provide for your own needs. And is so-called charity really 'charity' at all if it maintains the status quo of exploitation and division?

Few ever look at the bigger picture, but are generally carried away upon the wings of some emotion or another. Best to break the spell sometimes and just look around.

Hey susanparker, how about we put those 'brutal' exploiters of cheap labor in jail, or make them pony up and take responsibility for those slaves they 'employ'? And if we catch immigrants here illegally, what do you propose we do? Let's not paint them as being entirely innocent either, because most know they are breaking the law of this land. If there are to be no consequences, then just repeal the law, rather than play the silly game we're playing now.

People without papers get deported often enough ... it's not terribly effective in most cases, but there are buses en route to the border right now ...

Since certain industries appear to be magnets for undocumented low skill workers, it sounds like it would be useful to have on-site ongoing monitoring rather than these annual raids ...

It might be good if the feds stuck around ... or do you think that would that be too much work?

It's obvious to me that there has been a blind eye turned here BY THE AUTHORITIES ... and there are serious competing interests ... remember how so many people from different sides but all concerned with illegal immigration screamed bloody murder at a guest worker program (which, irrc, was favored by industry).

As far as I can tell, most people don't actually care ... these raids are token 'enforcement' theatre so the Department of Homeland Security can justify its existence ... and that bloody fence is just another sweetheart contract to KBR ...

watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZkAoosVLkA

grumpyoldlady: Your points are well-taken.

As an 'American-born' I have been deeply disturbed by this 'immigrant problem'. My family members are immigrants - all legal, but not all chose to become citizens or learn English as my parents did - and none came for 'economic' opportunities (they were already relatively wealthy and well-educated, but their respective governments were becoming politically chaotic/unstable - which is usually dangerous if you're in the military or well-educated and a 'new order' takes over).

I have also witnessed the loss of jobs - formerly filled by Americans - now taken by both legal and illegal economic immigrants willing to work for a pittance, and at several times the pace any ordinary American would tolerate. This is particularly true in the meat-packing industries that were decimated when the Reagan administration castrated their unions, as well as in the service-sector (landscaping, janitorial work, and lately construction as well. Don't even get me started on 'green card' jobs that put college grads out of work!).

The one problem not addressed here is a simple unbalanced equation: capital is allowed to enter (or leave) any country without restraint, but people have no such freedom. This is the basic imbalance that has driven so many people to embrace economic emmigration. It is simple economics - which is not something that can be addressed by immigration laws. A global approach is necessary - and that's what's been missing all these years. It's a problem we can no longer ignore - providing incentives for both capital and people, but restricting one and not the other is impossible to balance.

Since I was born here (in the US), I am considered 'an American' - even by the countries of my parents and grandparents (who were not US citizens) birth. But they will not allow me to emigrate to their countries! This is an egregious anomoly - what other country considers anyone born on their turf automatically 'a citizen' - and yet 'American' children born in foreign countries (of parents who are US citizens) are automatically considered 'American' - see the problem?

The US is in the strange situation now of having (by law) to deport 'illegal' parents of children who are legally (born in the US) American citizens!

Until the dual questions of migration - capital and people - are addressed on a global scale, this problem cannot be solved. And it is coming home to us (Americans) very soon as capital flight leaves a bankrupt America in the dust. Meanwhile, those jobs once taken up by youngsters and retirees alike are no longer available - and the cost of living (inflation) has been hidden from Americans for decades. (Ever wonder why we went off the gold standard?) We can't even move to another country (one with a civilized society) - we (I) simply can't afford it, unless you're extremely wealthy.

This thing about expired visas really scares me too - mine has expired in the past, and that was never a big deal. Now I wonder what would happen to an American caught with an expired visa? (It's not always easy to get a new stamp.) Do other countries throw people in jail and deport them for such minor violations? I've never heard of such a thing before... what kind of a world have we created? And how the hell do we fix these problems - certainly not nation-by-nation! (How would YOU like to be an Iraqi, Afghan, or Palestinian today?) And then there's the problem of dual citizenship - like all those neo-cons whose primary loyalty is to Israel? (I suspect there are a lot of other Jews whose primary loyalty is also to Israel.) And I don't even want to discuss those Americans who pledge allegiance to Israel over the US - even those running for president these days...

This thorny subject always gets off course because most people ignore the problem with capital being allowed to move freely around the world - arbitrage - but not people. Whole countries are economically destroyed by such heinous practices (Argentina?) - and the worst is yet to come as the US is abandoned (as well as the US petro-dollar.)

Of course, any 'raids' - here, or in Palestine, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or anywhere else - are an abomination reminiscent of the Third Reich. This is NOT how civilized peoples behave. Terror is NEVER a proper response to any problem - but Americans never seem to learn. And those RAIDS ARE TERRORISM - they have no other justifiable use but to instill fear in an already vulnerable population. (And they also scare the hell out of 'legal' immigrants of the Latino persuasion.)

On a more personal note: My parents retired to Arizona, and my disabled brother (who lives with them) has more problems with Asian workers than Latinos - they are rude, speak no English, and harrass any American workers who dare invade 'their' shops and 'take their jobs'!!! (The Mexicans only steal fruit from the trees in the yard - my father would give the fruit to them, if they only asked... they end up destroying more than they steal!)

Military brats learn to live all over the world - and the one important thing we were taught is that 'in Rome you do as the Romans do' - that would be good advice for everyone. Especially Americans. But the same goes for those people who come to the US - they need to learn English, dress 'normally' and leave their 'religion' at home where it belongs. That's the problem in Europe right now - immigrants insisting on changing their host country - how rude! Intolerable - as they are learning in France, Denmark, Holland, etc. Adapt - or leave. Go back where you came from if you don't like the way we live - in any country! 'Nuff said. (I've had the day off - anyone notice? Ha!)

Statistics and facts do not a good argument make.

How come no one's mentioned NAFTA and free trade agreements, which has made thing worse for the average person in the countries that signed it? As I recall, the number of billionaires in Mexico doubled from 12 to 24. In its first year. Or US support of an illegitimate government in Mexico and elsewhere? Where's the outrage over that?

Or the tripling of the cost of tortillas in less than 3 months after the Calderon (mis) administration took power?

The same forces that are trying to drive wages and conditions to the bottom have benefited from these Free-To-Pillage Trade Agreements. Here and in other countries.

Of course the FACT that the US is the #1 arms dealer and giver has NOTHING to do with brutal governments around the world who subvert the rights and aspirations of their populations. Or that the US trains thugs and killers at places like the School of the Americas rebranded under a new name- same shame.

Deal with these and any one of another half a dozen key problems (global warming, the arm-twisting promotion of genetically modified crops are just 2) and then I'll consider you serious about the causes. BTW, I've lobbied recently against the bilateral US-Columbian trade agreement.

Statistics and facts do not a good argument make.

How come no one's mentioned NAFTA and free trade agreements, which has made thing worse for the average person in the countries that signed it? As I recall, the number of billionaires in Mexico doubled from 12 to 24. In its first year. Or US support of an illegitimate government in Mexico and elsewhere? Where's the outrage over that?

Or the tripling of the cost of tortillas in less than 3 months after the Calderon (mis) administration took power?

The same forces that are trying to drive wages and conditions to the bottom have benefited from these Free-To-Pillage Trade Agreements. Here and in other countries.

Of course the FACT that the US is the #1 arms dealer and giver has NOTHING to do with brutal governments around the world who subvert the rights and aspirations of their populations. Or that the US trains thugs and killers at places like the School of the Americas rebranded under a new name- same shame.

Deal with these and any one of another half a dozen key problems (global warming, the arm-twisting promotion of genetically modified crops are just 2) and then I'll consider you serious about the causes. BTW, I've lobbied recently against the bilateral US-Columbian trade agreement.

Bill and grumpy, great posts! You get to the heart of many issues that are often ignored, but that some know intuitively. That the free movement of capital without meaningful regulations has brought and is bringing much imbalance to the world. I have noticed the same problem of the lack of integration among illegals. They often pretend to not to understand you when you suspect they can. One time I went to a construction site to do some IT work. It was kind of eerie, like I was truly in another country. I asked 4 different Hispanics (in Spanish) if they spoke English and they shook their heads. I almost left the site before I ran into an English speaking foreman.

On weekends at Wall Mart (I live in NC) the store has many Hispanics strolling around. My wife who is an immigrant as well (filipina) told me the way they stare at her is chilling, and that sometimes she believes she was being followed.

Anyway, grumpy has a point, when in another's home exhibit good manners if you'd like to be accepted. Try to adapt the their culture, rather than change it into yours. I'm sure there are many things interesting about Hispanic cultures that with mutual integration would enrich both.

NAFTA and so called 'free trade' have cost us plenty, and for most have lowered our standard of living. In the past eight years, this country has been plundered and ravaged! Oh, and I love CNN's 'inflation figures,' --not bad when you exclude fuel and food! WHO can exclude those things??

The real kicker is that folks seem to be so demoralized and/or apathetic about it all or, worse yet, in deep denial. You know that something must really be afoot, though, when self-proclaimed republicans start talking about voting for Obama.

Sorry just rambling a bit this morning. Again, grumpy and Bill thank for addressing very real and pertinent issues!

And one more thing regarding "raids." They been with us for quite awhile, starting with the drug raids of old.

What happens one place happens elsewhere. What both the US and Canada wants is a bunch to temporary migrant workers with no rights and who can be kicked out of the country if either they try to stick up for themselves or when what they came in to do is done. It is a way of lowering wages and pitting established Canadians against these new comers - creating the race frictions that both Lou Dobbs and Obama talk about (though with different emphasis).

Note that if one votes against a budget, one automatically brings down the government - which is why the Republicans of the North are trying to sneak Immigration changes into budget legislation:

Ms. Olivia Chow (Trinity—Spadina, NDP)

moved:

That it be an instruction to the
Standing Committee on Finance that it
have the power to divide Bill C-50, An
Act to implement certain provisions of
the budget tabled in Parliament on
February 26, 2008 and to enact
provisions to preserve the fiscal plan
set out in that budget, into two or more
pieces of legislation.

She said: Mr. Speaker, the NDP is determined to take every possible step to stop the Conservatives' irreversibly damaging immigration reforms.

This is the NDP's second attempt to stop the damaging reforms from passing in Parliament and I am proud to stand here again today in the spirit of cooperation to split this bill, and give it the study and amendments it so desperately needs.

A country's immigration policy can build strong communities, an educated and skilled labour force, and a vibrant and sustainable economy. A failed policy, however, can lead to division, resentment and transient communities of single labourers who have no prospects for citizenship, family or community.

Immigration policy that does not integrate immigrants into Canadian society, into our cities, our schools and our economy, undoubtedly leads to division in our society. When kids do not get to play together, the families are not connected and as a result the community is divided.

Canada's immigration policy needs to be much more than just about bringing cheap and skilled labour to Canada. Right now there are two streams. Skilled labour comes into Canada, but then Canadian government wastes their talents by not recognizing their degrees and certificates. As a result they cannot practise the kind of trade or jobs they are trained for. Another stream deals with temporary foreign workers which is basically cheap labour and this is what the bill is designed to do.

The Conservative immigration reforms would: first, give the immigration minister arbitrary powers to move people up or off waiting lists; second, limit immigrants the ability to reunite with overseas family members based on humanitarian and compassionate grounds; and third, let officials prioritize temporary foreign labour over family class and economic class immigrants.

What does this mean for Canada? It means lower wages for working families and it means that we will have divided communities.

It also means that tens of thousands of migrants come to work our land, our farms, wash our dishes, cook our food and pay taxes, but have no prospects of building a life in Canada. They have no prospects for citizenship, no prospect for building a family, a life and prosperous future in Canada.

There are 900,000 prospective immigrants facing really long waits, but the Conservatives' so-called solutions are just wrong. Their solution is to kick people off the waiting list and bring in temporary foreign cheap labour for their friends, especially in the oil sands. After all, the federal government approved over 40,000 temporary foreign workers in Alberta last year alone. That is a 300% jump from only three years ago.

What kind of Canada are we building if we are encouraging the growth of a program that brings to Alberta over 40,000 temporary workers with no rights, no families, and no future here in Canada? I just heard that Tim Hortons in Alberta brought in 100 workers from the Philippines, for example.

While the Conservative government ignores Ontario and Quebec's manufacturing crisis and does nothing to retrain the unemployed across Canada, it is in fact lowering wages and stalling economic prosperity for thousands of families. In manufacturing towns they are facing unemployment, whether they are in northern Ontario, southern Ontario, Quebec, and all across Canada.

Gil McGowan of the Alberta Federation of Labour said recently:

This is essentially a program that has
been allowed to grow exponentially
without addressing any of the very
legitimate concerns that have been raised
and without putting any of the necessary
safeguards in place.

In an article in the Calgary Herald earlier this month, McGowan said:

The foreign workers program artificially allows employers to keep wages lower when employees are scarce, creates a lower class of worker, and will cause tensions between the temporary workers and local, permanent staff.

We are already seeing it.

Rick Clarke of the Nova Scotia Federation of Labour said yesterday in the citizenship and immigration committee that it is not fair to the workers being brought in, it is not fair for our economy, and it is not fair for those being by-passed because access to this program by employers is far too open. He called the program flawed because it allows employers to hire cheap labour without offering any long term benefits to the employee.

New Canadians make this country strong. Immigrants can either help to build thriving and diverse communities, and a 21st century workforce to compete with the world's best or we can use them, abuse them, and then send them home when we are done with them as the Conservatives' and the Liberals' policy will do.

The NDP said no to Conservatives' backdoor sweeping offensive changes and no to the massive expansion of temporary foreign cheap labour.

Instead, we want to ease backlogs by investing to increase overseas staffing in visa offices, increase immigration levels to 1% of our population, and change the point system, so people of all skills can come to Canada with their families and build inclusive, vibrant, healthy communities and neighbourhoods.

It is time for fairness in our immigration policy. It is time for living wages and family reunification. It is time for strong communities instead of weak, transient, and migrant ones.

However, instead of fairness, we get half truths, spin and a public relations advertising campaign at the taxpayer's expense.

The Conservative government said it is welcoming a record number of newcomers to Canada, but the reality is permanent landed immigrants to Canada dropped by 10,587 people. More shocking still is that while the numbers fell the Liberal and Conservative governments increased their admissions to an extra 24,000 more temporary workers between 2003 and 2006. Of course, we know they do provide cheap labour and drive down wages.

The Conservative government said that there are 925,000 people in the backlog and sweeping immigration reforms in Bill C-50 are designed to ease that. However, the reality is that the legislative changes will not come into effect until after February 28 of this year and will have no impact on the backlog of that said 925,000 applicants.

The Conservative government said that sweeping changes are needed to speed up the processing of applications. The reality is that giving the minister the power to discard applications that meet all immigration requirements is unfair, it is arbitrary, and it is open to abuse.

The Conservative government said that measures are designed to attract and retain foreign students. That is in its PowerPoint presentation, taking it on the road and giving it to everyone who would listen. The reality is that there is no clause in Bill C-50 that addresses foreign students applications.

The Conservative government said that there will be no discrimination as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms will be respected. The reality is that the charter does not help potential immigrants trying to come to Canada.

The minister's instruction is to fast track foreign workers, skilled workers from Mexico as opposed to parents coming from India, the charter cannot prevent--

(for the rest of it, just put immig in the edit/find) This was Thursday, April 17, 2008 but it has been a topic of conversation for over a month)

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/chambersittings.aspx?View=H&Parl=39&Ses=2&Language=E&Mode=1

RE: - Bill and grumpy, great posts! You get to the heart of many issues that are often ignored, but that some know intuitively. That the free movement of capital without meaningful regulations has brought and is bringing much imbalance to the world.

Reminded me of Linda McQuaig's "Cult of Impotence", which talked about the Mexican economic collapse and how the US bailed out investers - which is a compliment. Isn't the same thing going on now with the US economy - that those who gamble on the stock market are being bailled out!

RE: - Does anyone know what happens to the business owners who hire illegal immigrants? I never hear about that in the news.

I think that John Edwards talked about that when he was still in the race. His recommendation was in going after the employers who hire undocumented workers - which is not done at present. There might possibly be a small fine (if that) which fails to act as a deterrent. It was a few months back when Edwards/Obama/Clinton were talking about this and my memory is shot. Do remember Edwards saying that if business owners were not prepared to hire them under the table, then the supply of undocumented workers would dry up. They come over for the work and if they can't get hired, then there is nothing to cross the border for.

RE: - Some of these employees were illegal aliens, so the firms probably felt they could take advantage of them.

Let's call them "undocumented workers" please. You use the phrase of the Republicans, you make them sound as if they are something other than human or law abiding - which diverts the focus off of the Repug policies which both encourage them and encourage us to use them as scapegoats (or whipping boys) for all that ails us (which is not your intent what-so-ever).

Probably?

Read what Olivia Chow says about "temporary workers" which are documented, rather than undocumented, and figure that the situation of undocumented workers will be much much more easy to exploit. Chow is the short sample. There is much more that follows - even right after she finishes. After they came back from the fire drill, Chow said (among other things):

Perhaps it is not a coincidence that these immigration changes are in a finance bill and at the finance committee. Perhaps the Conservative government sees immigrants as economic units rather than human beings and people who bring families together and people who establish communities. To the government they are just economic units. They are here to work, to give more profit to the employers, to the big corporations so that they could pay less. Those people have less power. They probably would not dare to complain because the minute they got fired they would be deported. They would be asked to leave. They have very little power.

Time to read the Walmart stuff and watch the video.

Many thanks for your input Vaudree. :)

Thanks.

Just finished reading the Walmart and watching the video - Susan Parker, your second link isn't working.

RE: - Tom Russell-Who's Gonna Build Your Wall

In Mexico there is no safety net what-so-ever and you can go to jail for even trying to for a union or organize as workers. Whose going to build the wall as cheaply? Plenty of people are willing to build it for a living wage (rather than settling for a subsistence wage). And who is going to be deported as soon as the wall is finished?

Have you seen Jack Layton on Lou Dobbs yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MR7tL7tWs

RE: -They came from Russia, Poland and Lithuania, and their tales of washing and waxing Wal-Mart's floors for seven nights a week sound much like Pavel's.

My son's married gay boss immigrated from Lithuania, and my son's immediate supervisor who figured he was right for his cusy job is from Mexico originally. I doubt that either bother to wax their own floors any more than the rest of us. Did I mention that they are both Canadian citizens (not temporary workers).

RE: - Pavel's unhappy stay in the United States ended with a shock when federal agents raided 60 Wal-Marts

It would have ended even earlier if Pavel complained about his working conditions. There was a documentary about how, in Poland, some of these job recruiters who say that they are hiring you to go to Europe to be maids are really prostitution rings. It was a story about how this one husband was trying to get his wife back from the pimps.

I worked enough minimum wage jobs to know the difference between official and unofficial policy. The only time you are sent home when you have strep throat is when the inspector is expected to arrive – otherwise no one even bothers to hide the amoxicilian. Inspectors have something against washing dishes or doing food prep when you have strep throat for some reason, but if you stayed home every time you got sick, your rent would be in arrears.

Now for a few quotes:

"We see the effect with the NAFTA among Mexico, Canada and the United States. As of January of this year, there has been a free flow of corn across the border. Mexican farmers are not able to compete. They are going broke, so they are leaving their farms, going to the bigger cities and migrating to the United States to work for menial jobs, probably on the black market somewhere, to make a living." - Alex Atamanenko

"They say that one is judged not by one's words, but by one's actions. It is one thing to say that homophobic statements made years ago by a sitting member of Parliament no longer represent that member's thoughts, and that he is sorry. It is one thing to say that we have a neutral immigration policy when people are being deported to countries where they will be in real danger because in those counties, it is illegal to be homosexual. That is what the Conservative government is really doing, and I highly doubt it is mere coincidence." - Thomas Mulcair, April 16

"It seems as though the Conservatives are discomfited by minority groups such as disabled persons and gays, and by immigrants' rights organizations, women's rights organizations, and all organizations that defend minority groups." - Carole Freeman, April 14

"Perhaps these words will ring a bell for the member: the Cadman affair, NAFTAgate, the Elections Canada in and out scheme, the Mulroney-Schreiber affair. Does the member want me to go on?" - Jean-Claude D'Amours, April 14

"Remind me who the evil-doers are?"

The Globalists on Wall Street, supported by the Globalists in our Federal Government who saw a way to amass un-earned fortunes at the expense of the American middle-class and off the backs of the poor in the form of "cheap labor"; reckless behavior in the form of encouraging "risk-taking" by highly leveraged speculators who are now being bailed-out by tax-payers.

It is certainly not the immigrants who are the "evil-doers"; however, since in the community called America where everyone is not treated with dignity and respect, including U.S. citizens who remain invisible to this government unless they owe taxes, the immigrant issue must be addressed in its "true" light.

Did our government ask U.S. citizens if it was OK to use their tax dollars to bail-out the millionaire/billionaire shareholders on Wall Street who are responsible for the fraud which led to this inflation crisis and currency debasement and which robs the majority of their hard-earned money? Did they ask us if it was OK to import or export cheap labor which would unltimately lead to U.S. citizens losing jobs, health benefits, or having to work for decreased wages?

NO...they did not! They essentially told us to send them our hard-earned tax dollars and to shut-the-f**k-up, since ethics and "moral hazards" are insignificant (to them).

sorry, about the link, the whole mondaq website seems to be down and there's no google cache of that particular article ... I presume site will come up again in the future. I thought it was a great page. Mondaq seems to sell legal articles/references and that page was the cover or summary page with links for further pay to play reading ...

The Lou Dobbs's of the world would have you believe that this is not about hating Mexicans or being racist. They would have you believe that this is about legal immigration versus illegal immigrations. Bollocks!! In Arizona there is legislation being proposed that would outlaw groups like MECHA and other Raza groups. Discussing Raza issues would be a threat to "homeland security" under this despicable legislation. Public schools would be banned from teaching Mexican heritage and issues in Arizona if this legislation passes. Talk about cultural cleansing. What's next corporal punishment for those that dare to speak Spanish at school like the old days?

Forextrader, that is why Lou Dobbs thinking of Jack Layton as a kindred spirit is so amusing. Especially what he said about China.

This also goes to what Obama said about blaming immigrants when the whole problem is NAFTA and NAFTA related policies (such as blaming the immigrants while letting the business who hire undocumented workers off scot free.

When Obama talks about "leaving people behind" he stole that from Jack Layton, but, one must admit, delivers the line slightly better.

Jack Layton at the Take Back America conference - Part 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lbZtRJ4494Y

Jack Layton at the Take Back America conference - Part 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XdPf-Za2UD0

(Tommy Douglas is Keifer Sutherland's grandfather)

So what is going on at the SPP (NAFTA on steroids) meeting between the Three Amigos this week?

Have they all found a way to "harmonize" Canada's and Mexico's Immigration policies with the US's yet?