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TechnoratiJERUSALEM - "I and the majority of the Palestinian people are ready for a historic agreement based on international decisions that will allow a Palestinian and Israeli state to coexist, side by side, in peace and stability."
Jailed Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti, in letter to be read at ceremony marking 30th anniversary of Peace Now movement.
These are devastating times for people who believe that the Palestinians need and deserve and will live to see a state of their own. A poll taken last month showed that 68% of Palestinians believe that the chances for the establishment of a Palestinian state during the next five years are non-existent or weak.
That same poll found that fully 84 percent of the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza supported the Mercaz Harav yeshiva massacre which killed eight students, and that nearly two-thirds back Gaza rocket attacks against Sderot and Ashkelon in southern Israel.
Opponents of Palestinian statehood, right wing and religious Jews and Christians at the fore, have seized on the poll as conclusive proof that Israel must abandon efforts aimed at aiding a two-state solution.
They have also pointed to the crushing despair of the Palestinians as evidence that Israel is finally winning an epic struggle for the future of the Holy Land. They quote Zakariya Zubeidi, until recently the charismatic commander of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades militia in the West Bank flashpoint of Jenin:
"We failed entirely in the intifada," Zubeida told Ha'aretz Ami Issacharoff in an interview published at the weekend. "We haven't seen any benefit or positive result from it. We achieved nothing. It's a crushing failure. We failed at the political level - we didn't succeed in translating the military actions into political achievements ... We are marching in the direction of nowhere, toward total ruin. The Palestinian people are finished. Done for."
The right has taken a degree of satisfaction in this turn of events, even a measure of credit. The assumption has long been that in a battle of this tenacity, there can be but one winner.
It's a useful assumption if what you're after, deep down, is a guarantee that settlements will stay right where they are, with new ones to follow, and no end of new housing for veteran enclaves. It's a useful assumption if you believe that settlements are essential to Israel's security and its future.
I must, therefore, beg the right's pardon when I say that in the long run, the assumptions appear to me to be dead wrong.
I'm a fairly patriotic sort, as these things go. A California native, I truly love the nation, and especially the state, of my birth. I love this, my adopted homeland, no less. I deeply want Israel to be a success. And that is why I wanted the Palestinians to win.
Not win as in "throw the Jews in the sea." Not win as in "set the ground ablaze under the Jews' feet."
Win as in "gain what the Jews have gained - independence, statehood, responsibility over their own fate, and a sense of proportion over what is attainable in a world and a region of limited resources and manifold hopes."
When I was first here, and young, and knew nothing, it seemed to me that a prerequisite for a viable, thriving and, yes, permanent Israel was to have a neighbour state of Palestine that was itself viable, thriving and permanent.
I spoke with many Palestinians who felt the same. Their vision of the future was an independent country alongside Israel, a place in which Palestinians could earn a respectable living, live calm lives and raise well-educated children free of undue fear, ire, and resentment.
They bore wounds, emotional and, in some cases, physical, having directly to do with Israel. There were going to be ways in which, no matter how a deal was cut, Palestinians would be forced to swallow a number of doses of injustice. As would the Israelis. There were past injustices, lost birthrights, dashed hopes, shattered promises, which would never be redressed.
Still, the Palestinians with whom I chanced to speak, some of whom I came to work with and know, believed that a peace, an actual peace, a sulha to put a halt to a horrible history, would come with two states, Israel and Palestine.
Later on, when secret peace talks in Oslo yielded agreement between bitter enemies, there was a shocking sense of elation on both sides. It seemed that the path to two states had been found.
I know. You're not supposed to say that anymore. People on my side, people who have never spoken to a Palestinian in their lives, are doubtless cracking their knuckles at this point, getting ready to set me straight about these people, why the very word Oslo is an obscenity, why those Jews who spearheaded the process were criminals, why those Jews who supported it were dupes at best and traitors at worst.
It is in the direct interest of hardliners to do everything in their power to convince their side that this is a zero-sum game, that only one side can emerge triumphant.
In fact, though, there are two additional options, the first, of course, being that both sides can lose. The second, the one of which we've largely lost sight, is that with an element of compassion, both sides can win.
There are well over three million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, and they are not about to go anywhere. We lack the will, the capability and, in fact, the failure of conscience that it would take to persuade or force them to leave.
There are more than seven million Israelis, and they are not going anywhere either. A poll conducted last month by Tel Aviv University's Tami Steinmetz Center showed that 82 percent of Israeli respondents said rocket attacks either had no bearing on their decision to stay in Israel, or even strengthened their resolve to do so.
True, peace, as a concept and a hope, has gone underground. But a close examination of all recent polls showing the depths of Israeli and Palestinian fear and anger, is that a majority on both sides still believes in a two-state solution - even people who, for the present at least, reject the idea of negotiations, argue for attacks against the other side, and have no faith in their leaders or the those of the enemy.
It may be many years before Palestinians and Israelis can again begin to feel confident in a future that promises their children life. But none of us can abide in this present, a reality in which we kill their children and they kill ours, in which we kill their hopes and they ours.
If there is to be peace, people who have sacrificed and suffered, Israelis and Palestinians alike, will face further sacrifices, further pain, further renunciation of long-held dreams. This is the cost of peace. There are those who will continue to try to convince their side that the price of permanent war is somehow preferable.
I am no longer young, but I still want the Palestinians to win. For that to happen, both sides have a lot of growing up to do. I hope I live to see it.
Bradley Burston is Senior Editor of Haaretz.com, the newspaper's online English language edition.
© 2008 Common Ground News Service
35 Comments so far
Show Allrebel_conservative -
Are you saying that "Americans" can not now and will never become an etnhicity? That somehow all americans will, now and forever, be some hybrid subset of some other "Master Race"? That assimilation never happens?
Are you saying that you do not understand the propagandistic purpose of words and phrases? I understand the purpose of the modern usage of "anti-semitism". Do you?
If you are an American, you are not free. If you are inj the US, can you think of five things you will do today that are not regulated by the US, state or local Government in some way?
Your adherence to absolutism will fail you in most adult conversations.
Narcissistic personality disorder may stem from an innate inability to empathize, or it can be a learned attitude. Some say it emerges from prior rejection or lack of early affection. For a person, it might be that they had a narcissistic parent. For a group, it could be they were persecuted. In each case the narcissist has learned the behavior from how they were treated.
The DSM definition of narcissism should apply to groups as well as people. I call it SOCIAL NARCISSISM. One clear example would be US slave-owners as a group in relation to slaves as a group. I believe the slave owners, as a class, met all 9 criteria. There are many many other examples of this mind-set in history.
If a group meets 5 of the criteria below, they just might be a Social Narcissist. You decide how Israel's leading group and national psychology stacks up in relation to the Palestinians:
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement
6. Is interpersonally exploitative
7. Lacks empathy
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
The opposites of narcissism are empathy and rationality. There are thousands of Israeli peace activists who are convinced that Israel's extreme Zionism is morally wrong and will never work. News of the Israeli peace movement is rarely reported here.
The "cure" for narcissists is to stop their exploitative behavior while not subjecting them to the rejection that gave rise to the disorder in the first place. That is, oppose Israel's racist policies toward the Palestinians but do not slip into racist hatred of Jews. It is a vicious cycle.
"Your quaint notion of American exceptionalism is ackwowledged. Perhaps you should see how outside groups see Americans. As one or as distinct and separate?
"to be American is to support certain shared values that are considered foundational" - This would be considered a fair definition of an ethnicity. Thank you."
I don't think you know what 'ethnicity' is... it is a group of humans who identify with each other through a shared history and common ancestry. Irish Americans identify themselves as Irish, blacks as African, Italian Americans identify themselves as Italian etc. They don't identify as Americans.
'"Totalitarianism is a concept used in political science that describes a state that regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behavior." - wikipedia "I think you confuse totalitarian with authoritarian." - I appreciate your effort. I guess my compromise would be to say that the USA is both, not mutually excludable."
The US govt does not "regulate nearly every aspect of public and private behaviour" and the prison population does not prove a thing.
""crucial importance of Jewish national history" - There is nothing "crucial" about "Jewish national history"."
You don't understand the difference between being a people with a homeland for hundreds of years, and being a people scattered across the globe, abused and repressed wherever they live?
"Your utilization of dictionaries is impressive. Please look up "semite" and "anti" separately."
why? we were discussing the word antisemitism. The word was coined to refer to hatred of Jews.
"Time will see the modern Crusaders wiped from the map."
we will see ;)
rebel_conservative -
Your quaint notion of American exceptionalism is ackwowledged. Perhaps you should see how outside groups see Americans. As one or as distinct and separate?
"to be American is to support certain shared values that are considered foundational" - This would be considered a fair definition of an ethnicity. Thank you.
"Totalitarianism is a concept used in political science that describes a state that regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behavior." - wikipedia
"I think you confuse totalitarian with authoritarian." - I appreciate your effort. I guess my compromise would be to say that the USA is both, not mutually excludable.
"crucial importance of Jewish national history" - There is nothing "crucial" about "Jewish national history".
Your utilization of dictionaries is impressive. Please look up "semite" and "anti" separately. I can acknowledge that the term "anti-semite" has been bastardized away from a true literal meaning and forced into a temporarily exclusive (mostly) definition that demeans the remaining Semite population.
"Plus, there are nations that are pretty isolated (e.g. North Korea and Burma) that have managed to survive." - You are pretty delusional on this one. North Korea has 6 times the land mass, Burma has over 30. Both have significant natural resources. That is how they have survived (If you can call it that). A nation can not survive on bread and solar alone. Israel could not manufacture arms if the raw materials were cut off.
As for "But as that is not going to happen" - Zionism is a failed experiment. Modern Israel is a failed experiment. Time will see the modern Crusaders wiped from the map. It took a few hundred years to happen the last time and it will happen again. It won't take a few hundred years this time. Enjoy it while you can!
There is no American ethnicity, to be American is to support certain shared values that are considered foundational to American government and society. That is why it is pssible to be "un-American" in a way that you can't be "un-German" or "un-Spanish."
I think you confuse totalitarian with authoritarian.
"Are you accusing me of sub-conscious jew-hatred?"
No, I am suggesting that the argument you used, by neglecting the crucial importance of Jewish national history is implicitly, though not deliberately anti-Semitic.
""Anti-Semitism was coined to describe hatred of Jews . . . it is the correct English language term to use applied to Jews, not arabs" - You could not be further from the truth. Look at the definition in any English language dictionary. The English language is usaully not formed by German generals."
Dictionary.com
discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.
American Heritage Dictionary
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Discrimination against Jews.
Online Etymology Dictionary
1881, from Ger. Antisemitismus, first used by Wilhelm Marr in 1880, from anti- + Semite (q.v.). Not etymologically restricted to anti-Jewish theories, actions or policies, but almost always used in this sense. Those who object to the inaccuracy of the term might try H. Adler's Judaeophobia (1882).
WordNet
the intense dislike for and prejudice against Jewish people
American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy
Prejudice or hatred against Jews, a Semitic race. (See Arab-Israeli conflict and Nazis.)
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
Opposition to, or hatred of, Semites, esp. Jews.
""A colony is a territory that a foreign power exerts the jurisdiction of its own laws" - Read more US law. Israel is bound by many US laws. Like most of these types of laws, Israel can chose to accept or ignore them."
Israel is bound by its own basic law, largely based on British common law from the mandate period.
"but Israel received around $120 million in aid per year" -"Israel receives $3billion worth of US weapons every year" -
Can you add?
I distinguished economic and military aid, I thought that was clear.
"In regards to the independent viability of Israel - You have a Masada complex. Israel has almost no natural resources. If the world refused to trade with them, they would fold."
Israel is self-sufficient in food, has one of the world's leading arms industries, it has the Negev which, if properly utilised could yield significant levels of solar energy. Plus, there are nations that are pretty isolated (e.g. North Korea and Burma) that have managed to survive. I would count against Israel even if it was totally cut off.
"If the Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese got back the land stolen from them, they would have almost zero fresh water."
But as that is not going to happen, there is no need to worry - luckily for the 5 million Jews and 1.5 million Arabs.
To be clear, yes.
"White Americans" are part of an ethnic group. It is called assimilation. All assimilated Americans are part an ethnic group, American.
"Having the world's highest incarceration rate does not somehow prove you live in a totalitarian society." - if that does not prove it, nothing can.
"I was not accusing you of concious Jew-hatred" - Are you accusing me of sub-conscious jew-hatred?
"Would you have liked to live as a Jew under a Caliphate?" - I would not want to live under a caliphate, a Jewish State or any other religiously based form of government.
"Anti-Semitism was coined to describe hatred of Jews . . . it is the correct English language term to use applied to Jews, not arabs" - You could not be further from the truth. Look at the definition in any English language dictionary. The English language is usaully not formed by German generals.
"A colony is a territory that a foreign power exerts the jurisdiction of its own laws" - Read more US law. Israel is bound by many US laws. Like most of these types of laws, Israel can chose to accept or ignore them.
"but Israel received around $120 million in aid per year" -"Israel receives $3billion worth of US weapons every year" -
Can you add?
In regards to the independent viability of Israel - You have a Masada complex. Israel has almost no natural resources. If the world refused to trade with them, they would fold. If the Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese got back the land stolen from them, they would have almost zero fresh water.
Once again. To be clear, yes.
seedeevee-
"Over two million [in jail] and you still think we do not live in a totalitarian society?"
Having the world's highest incarceration rate does not somehow prove you live in a totalitarian society. You either don't know what the word 'totalitarian' means, or are subject to bouts of hyperbole. Go listen to "Holiday in Cambodia" and get back to me.
""an insidious form of anti-Semitism" - Ahh. Now we get your true colors. Of course, Zionists will always see an anti-semite reason for any criticism of Israel."
I did not accuse everyone who criticised Israel of anti-Semitism. You did not take account of the vastly different circumstances in the history of the Jewish people that mandate different immigration policies than other more established nations. I pointed out that this is a hidden, often systemic form of racism, I was not accusing you of concious Jew-hatred. I apologise for the confusion.
"There has been many rulers of the land in question. Jews have lived in this land for thousands of years. They have lived with many different ethnic groups and rulers. Believe it or not - they actually shared the land with whatever other group was there."
They lived there but were subject to repression, discrimination, apartheid and dhimmi status. They were kept down by whatever power existed in the region. Would you have liked to live as a Jew under a Caliphate?
"This is the difference between the modern Zionist and the Jew of the past. The Zionist demands the land for his genetic and religious group, not just his genetic group. Got that?"
Jewish ethnicity and religion are mixed. The Jews are a people, an ethnic group AND a religious group. Where there are many ethnic/nationalities that are Christian or Muslim, only ethnic Jews are Jewish. The few converts to Judaism that there are subsumed within the wider community.
"All Semites are not Jewish."
I didn't say they were. But Jews are a genetically distinguished ethnic group.
Anti-Semitism was coined to describe hatred of Jews (by a German general if I remember correctly), it is the correct English language term to use applied to Jews, not arabs.
"Did not Mr. Arafat describe himself as a Semite?"
Maybe he did... why are the words of a murderous anti-Semitic terrorist relevant?
No-one would argue that the arabs are semites... but why does that matter? Jews are a distinct ethnic group, as are Arabs.
"Your pathetic attempt at Finnish balance is somewhat amusing. I can't recall when Finland gave a religious and genetic test for its citizens"
As I said, the Jewish people have a unique history that necessitates the law of return.
"and then evicted those that failed."
There are 1.5 million Arab Israelis... they have not been evicted. There are about 3.6 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza... they have not been evicted.
"I will give you a passing grade as a cheap attempt at Kindergarten logic."
How magnanimous of you :)
""The idea that Israel is a colony is absurd" - Another laugher. A country that can not survive or function without the support and protection of a higher power is a colony of that power."
This is not the case, that is not a colony, it is perhaps a weak country, a dependent country, but it is not a colony. A colony is a territory that a foreign power exerts the jurisdiction of its own laws - this typically goes hand in hand with economic exploitation of natural resources.
"Israel will cease to exist soon after the West abandons it, economically and militarily."
Economically, I am not sure whether you are referring to aid, or trade, but Israel received around $120 million in aid per year, less than 0.01% of Israels GDP. Israel has a very developed economy, a postive balance of trade (which means that it imports more than it exports), has a very strong hi-tech sector. Israel imports almost no food from other countries. Israel does not need the rest of the world, not more than any other nation. Israel would survive even if every economic ties was cut tomorrow.
Militarily? Even leaving aside the fact that it is a nuclear power, Israel has one of the strongest defence industries in the world. Israel receives $3billion worth of US weapons every year, but even without that would still be the strongest military in the region (it has to be). If the US did not give that military aid, the Israeli arms industry would develop to fill the void.
""most countries are "nation states" with one ethnic group being in the majority. The exception is America" - What are you thinking? Please read a current census report. %50 +1 is a majority, if you did not know."
I assume you are referring to white people? White Americans are not an ethnic group, they are from many varied European nationalities, British, Irish, Italian, German etc.
"The problem is Zionism"
So, to be clear, you don't think that the State of Israel should exist at all, with any borders?
bye :)
Thank you, armybrat.
The road to peace in the ME means move out the squatters (I refuse to call the 'settlers' - that's just an attempt to legitimize them) and allow those in refugee camps to move in. Perfect solution. The invaders can always go home - Palestinians have no such choice.
Zionists do not quibble about embracing Nazi ideology. They are quite proud that they learned from Hitler - and they are following in the footsteps of the Third Reich. They even have the same benfactor - the US.
You cannot have a free country when some people are considered subhuman - insects. The only solution to this is to deport the invaders - there are Jews with legitimate claims in Palestine, and I'm sure the Palestinians would allow them to stay as long as they obeyed the laws. This is the only solution - no matter how long it takes, it is going to happen. Learn to live with it. Invaders - like Golda Meir - were and are the problem. Didn't she come from Milwaukee? (Forgive me if that's innaccurate, but I am an unwilling 'citizen' of the US - my immigrant family, who DID live under Nazi occupation - understand Zionism quite well. It's Nazism. And it needs to end - YESTERDAY. It is inhuman, evil, immoral, and unsustainable - as are all anti-social ideologies.
PS - don't forget that Hitler forced Mussolini to get rid of the Zionist fascists in Italy. Guess where they are now?
rebel_conservative -
"Totalitarian USA…? hardly" - You must be kidding! Over two million people in the prison/Jail system. Does Communist China or did the Soviet Union have anything on our societal control? I'll give you that China still executes more than us. Over two million and you still think we do not live in a totalitarian society?
"an insidious form of anti-Semitism" - Ahh. Now we get your true colors. Of course, Zionists will always see an anti-semite reason for any criticism of Israel. I am glad you let that slip.
Please read some more history books. History did go on before 1948. There has been many rulers of the land in question. Jews have lived in this land for thousands of years. They have lived with many different ethnic groups and rulers. Believe it or not - they actually shared the land with whatever other group was there.
This is the difference between the modern Zionist and the Jew of the past. The Zionist demands the land for his genetic and religious group, not just his genetic group. Got that? All Semites are not Jewish. Did not Mr. Arafat describe himself as a Semite? But the land is not his because he had the "wrong" religion.
Your pathetic attempt at Finnish balance is somewhat amusing. I can't recall when Finland gave a religious and genetic test for its citizens and then evicted those that failed. Hmm,lets see . . . What government imposed a genetic and religious test on its subjects and evicted/killed those that failed? Oh yeah, Nazi Germany and its colonies. I will give you a passing grade as a cheap attempt at Kindergarten logic.
"The idea that Israel is a colony is absurd" - Another laugher. A country that can not survive or function without the support and protection of a higher power is a colony of that power. Israel will cease to exist soon after the West abandons it, economically and militarily. I do understand that some think we are a colony of Israel, though.
"most countries are "nation states" with one ethnic group being in the majority. The exception is America" - What are you thinking? Please read a current census report. %50 +1 is a majority, if you did not know.
I live in the real world. Jews did live in this part of the world in relative peace for most of their history. If the Bible stories are even remotely true, it is the Jews who have a penchant for violent and grandiose landgrabs in the area. Most of the wiser leaders of the world have always preached toleration. Zionism is extremism. Zionism is racism to an extreme. The problem is Zionism, not Arabs and Jews.
c ya
Totalitarian USA...? hardly
But you have made my point better than I could have, thank you. Ethnically diverse countries are strife-riden; you are right that on totalitarian governments can keep ethnically and religiously diverse countries together (eg Austo-Hungarian empire/Yugoslavia/Iraq). Once they are gone, all hell breaks loose. I think we can agree that totalitarian governments are, on the whole, a bad thing.
So what option do we have?
Diverse countries with totalitarian governments...
Hell breaking loose with inter-ethnic warfare...
Self-determination for each people...
I think option three would be prepared by most...
And why single out the one Jewish state as "ethnically pure" but not point the finger at... well... virtually every other country on the planet... most countries are "nation states" with one ethnic group being in the majority. The exception is America, with its very different history.
Which is the more ethnically pure state? Israel or Finland?
When you consider that only 76.4% of Israelis are Jews, but 93.4% of Finns are Finnish.
Naturally, Finnish and Israeli immigration laws are different, given the different histories of those peoples. One is a long-standing nation that has had a homeland (albeit as a province within Sweden and later Russia) the other has an international diaspora, abused, persecuted, oppressed wherever they went for thousands of years, culminating in the holocaust and expulsion from arab countries. To expect the same 'enlightened' immigration policies from Israel as Finland (with their vastly different circumstances) is an insidious form of anti-Semitism.
The idea that Israel is a colony is absurd. A colony is a territorial entity that is claimed by a foreign power, which enforces its own laws on the territory (much like the US does with Puerto Rico) Which Western power claims Israel and imposes its laws? Israel is a sovereign nation, not a colony.
"When the natives (of all ethnicities) decide to live for the common good, there will be peace" I am sorry, but you are living in a dream world if you think that there will ever be one nation for Jews and Arabs in the region, the Jews won't have it... and the Arabs won't have it either... but apart from that, you are set ;)
rebel_conservative - You really do not understand what caused the "peace" in Europe.
25 million dead soldiers. 45-50 million dead civilians. (Throughout the world)
A Totalitarian Government ruled half of Europe. Totaltarian Government soon ruled China. Totaltarian USA ran Western Europe and most of the rest of the world.
Did any Western European Countries invade any Eastern European Countries? No. Did the Soviet Bloc invade any countries in Western Europe? No. Internal dissent was crushed in both of those spheres. Did they invade the rest of the world? Yes.
European peace was brought about by mass killings and then totalitarian governments. It was the end of the totalitarian governments and the interference of the West that brought about the disintegration of Yugoslavia. Which was the first major country to recognize break-away Croatia? - The newly unified Germany.
The "state" of Israel is 60 years old. A small dot in time. It too, will soon be forgotten as the last 20th century Western colony in the Middle East. When the natives (of all ethnicities) decide to live for the common good, there will be peace. Unfortunately, Israel is not for the common good. It is entirely for the Jews of the world. An ethnically pure state. This is something that should be condemned by all nations, not just the League of Arab States.
A united Palestine should be a home for all "natives" and agreed upon immigrants. Not just those who claim an eternal religious right to a particular space.
Ullern -
"The treatment by the West/USA/Israel of Palestinians is an ugly blight on the whole of humanity."
I agree. Now, what do you say about the treatment of the Palestinians by the neighbouring arab countries?
seedeevee -
Ethnic nationalism (every people having their homeland) and the ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe following WWII is largely responsible for the relative peace we have had in Europe in the past 60 years. I don't take pleasure in this, I wish just as much as you that both peoples could live in peace, but I just don't see it happening, not now, not ever. Palestinian nationalism was born and forged in resistance, they will never be able to live with Israel. This is the only way to end the humanitarian disaster afflicting the Palestinians. 75% of Palestine was given by the British to a Saudi Emir, so give it back to the Palestinians.
USAn -
What about the 650,000 Israeli Jews (and their descendents) who were ethnically cleansed, forced out of arab countries in 1948?
http://rebelconservative.blogspot.com
"For that price, we could have relocated the Palestinians to their own island in the Mediterranean, which probably would have brought permanent peace to the Middle East."
What an arrogant racist, imperialist statement!
Better yet, why don't we "relocate" the Isrealis back out of the palestinian homeland - back to where they came from - those nice, rich Jewish neighborhoods in every US city - New York, Skokie, Hollywood, or whatever their equivalents are in Europe.
TheMiddleRoad - what a load of crap. Just give us a link to AIPAC for your propaganda. Please inform us of the elected members of the Israeli government whose expressed desire to kill all of the non-Jews between Israel and the sea. That, would be a public service.
rebel_conservative - We do not need any ethnically cleansed parts of the world. That is what Zionism is. Do you really think the short-term fixes you propose will last? "Independent" Kosovo is doomed. "Jewish Israel" is doomed. "White" South Africa, already passed. "WASP" USA, long gone. The "Arab" countries finally fought back against the West/Zionists and their imposition of a colonial "Jewish" state by refusing to accept the terms.
"The allied powers agreed it was a wise policy" - it is good to see that you take your lessons from the "allied powers". We all know how they were concerned about truth and justice . . . . .
Ullern - loved your comment.
There needs to be peace for all the people there, Israeli, Palestinian, this insanity has gone on long enough.
The treatment by the West/USA/Israel of Palestinians is an ugly blight on the whole of humanity.
As with the slave-trade, the shame will last for centuries - if we humans last that long and do not exterminate ourselves by our mindless exploitative behaviours.
It makes me sad, it makes me depressed, it makes me carry around a crying feeling to think of the absolute horrors of behaviour towards the Palestinians – no matter how they may be perceived as having provoked the treatment. Nothing justifies the current concentrationcampification of Gaza.
Israel is retroactively justifying Hitler's holocaust, in far too many eyes. Dangerous for all that such sentiments are brought into existence.
The jewish Bryan Burston is wrong in saying "that both sides can lose" in the Israel/Palestinian "conflict" (Israeli Palestinian "expulsion" would be a more fitting name). Both sides have been losing consistently for over 40 or nearly 60 years (Six-day war 1967, or Israeli Declaration of Independence 1948). Imagine the amounts of Peace of Mind lost in the region and in the world over this futile conflict the last 40 years! It has persistently gone on to lose more and more happiness on both sides. Both sides have lost. Noone has won, except for the puny material land-gains by Israel (if they think it's been worth it, they're insane - and not to be suffered).
The obvious outcome is that Israel and Palestine will have to learn to somehow coexist in peace.
The West's wish to control the gateway to the Mid-East by securely ruling the eastern shores of the Mediterranean through Israel isn't worth the suffering. The suffering defeats the purpose of establishing security against suffering. (Yes, it's about which intolerant Abrahamic religion - Mosaism/Christianity/Islam - is to rule, but in the face of our tightly interconnected world that dispute is laughably obsolete.)
The whole issue has gone on beyond stupid for so long that the participants by now (USA/Israel/Palestinians) superstitiously hope for some supernatural reason behind it to show up - as no one when looking back are quite able to believe how obviously stupid they've been for so long. So it seems.
And it spreads. The Israel/Palestinian conflict has been a Western laboratory for military development for so long war seems like a natural state in the world, and other wars gain acceptance from that.
Again, look at it. Admit: the whole conflict is simply disgustingly stupid.
Time for peace.
Bradley Burton is right that Israel and the US need to accept a Palestinian State, they deserve their home - and Israel and the US (and the UK) need to pay compensation to the Palestinians. But this needs to be on the East Bank of the River Jordan, in part of the remaining 75% of Palestine. Britain received the Mandate in Palestine in 1920 and in 1922, chose to divided Palestine into one part West of the River Jordan (25%) and one part East of the River Jordan (75%).
Transferring the Palestinian population, and those in the refugee camps to the greater part of Palestine is a humane solution. Let the Jews and the Arabs live in peace, side by side, as independent nations. It has got to be better than the never-ending cycle of violence we have at the moment.
An exchange of populations effectively occured in 1948. Don't forget that whilst 650,000 Arabs were displaced by the War of Independence, when surrounding Arab countries attacked the newly formed state of Israel, the Arab countries kicked out 800,000 Jews (without compensation for property) and 650,000 Jewish refugees settled in Israel. They were not left to rot in "refugee camps" they were absorbed by Israel. The Arab countries on the other hand, decided to keep them in appalling, abject squalor in "refugee camps" so that they can use the plight of the Palestinian people and their suffering in a propaganda campaign against Israel.
Bradley Burton is wrong on the transfer option. Transfer, with considerable compensation, is the only solution. Israel and the US need to have the courage to carry through this policy if we are to end the violence, and enable the Palestinians to have an independent state.
This is not a particularly revolutionary idea, the same thing happened in Europe after WWII, Eastern European countries (particularly Czechoslovakia) deported millions of ethnic Germans. The allied powers agreed it was a wise policy to avoid inter-ethnic violence - the same reason why they recognise the declaration of independence by Kosovo today.
http://rebelconservative.blogspot.com
Funny to see silly comments like those by TheMiddleRoad and WmC on commondreams.
TheMiddleRoad: Yes, there are some developed countries like the UK, which have a nominal state religion, but what distinguishes them from Israel is that their government does not discriminate against religious minorities. In contrast, Israel does discriminate against non-Jews in all sorts of ways. I will name just a few of those ways. Most Israeli land can only be sold to Jews, through the Jewish National Fund, for example. Most Arab inhabitants cannot serve in the "IDF" (note the parenthesis, because it is hard to see what is Defensive about the IDF), which means that such Arabs cannot gain all the benefits, economic and educational, that come with serving therein. They are also routinely denied permits to build on land they own or to expand existing structures, and buildings that are built without such permits are often torn down. Arabs are not allowed to move into certain municipalities, which style themselves Arab-free communities. And finally, if Arabs have a foreign-born spouse, that spouse is unable to become a citizen of Israel. Note that I am not even mentioning all of the laws which allow the IDF to use emergency powers in order to detain, sometimes for indefinite periods of time, members of the Arab minority and use methods to interrogate them that most of the developed world consider torture.
NOw imagine if the UK were to take these kinds of measures against its religious minorities, including Jews. Would it even be conceivable? What do you think the response of the US gov't would be? What would the response of the US Jewish community be to such measures?
WmC: If Jewish people feel a religious obligation to settle that land for religious reasons, isn't it conceivable that people of other religions, Muslim and Christian, feel religious ties to the land as well? Why is it that only Jews get to exercise their religious attachment to the Holy Land? Did it ever occur to you that some Palestinian families there go back a 1000 years? That they have their own history that they don't want to give up, just as you presumably don't want to be paid to leave whatever rock you crawled out from under?
If we had spent the $3T used to pursue the bombing and occupying of Iraq on 3 million Palestinians, that would work out to $1M for each Palestinian. For that price, we could have relocated the Palestinians to their own island in the Mediterranean, which probably would have brought permanent peace to the Middle East.
'Course that wouldn't have been nearly emotionally gratifying as the "shock and awe" bombing of an innocent civilian population. And that's what we Americans are all about: Making wise investments and having fun. No?
I received a correction on the fax number for the Administrative Detention issue in Israel:
+97236080366@fax.tc
and +972 3 608 0366
Please take action and accept my apologies.
Here is something you can do:
URGENT CALL - your immediate protest may still prevent Mousa Abu Maria's Administrttive Detention
Early in the morning of Friday April 11th IDF troops invaded the home of the Abu Maria family and arrested Mousa Abu Maria. Mousa is a well known nonviolent activist and a co-founder of the Palestinian Solidarity Project. He has been a lead organizer in peaceful protest involving hundreds of Israelis and internationals and has been committed to nonviolence for several years.
When Mousa was arrested his family was not told of the reason of his arrest or his whereabouts.
When his lawyer managed to locate him it turned out he was being held in military jail but still no reason for his arrest was given. Only days later was his lawyer finally told that he was suspected of membership in a terrorist organization but when his interrogation did not turn up any evidence the prosecution has admitted that there 'may' not be enough evidence to put him on trial.
With no evidence against him and a long history of nonviolent activism Mousa's family should be celebrating his impending release. The Israeli military court system that presides over Palestinians in the Occupied Territories does not work that way and the prosecution has said they are considering putting Mousa in Administrative Detention, in which he has no right to trial. For Palestinians, when there is no evidence for a trial, they are simply jailed without one. The decision on whether Mousa will be placed in Administrative Detention will most likely be made TOMORROW.
ACT NOW to support Mousa.
Register your outrage to imprisonment without trial. Please write to the Chief Military Attorney,
Brigadier General Avihai Mandelblit , and demand that Mousa AbuMaria be released immediately.
Below is a suggested draft of a letter addressed to the Chief Military Attorney. Your own version should be emailed from gmail, yahoo hotmail or riseup to:
+97235694370@fax.tc
This will then be faxed to the Chief Military Attorney's office. Please cc PSP so we can keep track of the letters of support: palestineproject@gmail.com
Those who have a fax machine or do not have an email account at either gmail, yahoo hotmail or riseup can fax the Chief Military Attorney's office directly at
972-3-5694370
Sample letter:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chief Military Attorney
6 David Elazar Street
Tel Aviv
Military postal code 9605,IDF
Fax: +972 3 569 4370
Monday 14th April, 2008
F.A.O: Brigadier General Avihai Mandelblit,
I am writing with regards to the arrest of Mousa AbuMaria on Friday 11th April, 2008 in the village of Beit Ommar, West Bank, Occupied Territories. His lawyers have informed the international community of the conditions surrounding his arrest and said that although there is currently not enough evidence to put him on trial, he may soon be placed in administrative detention.
I would like to highlight my concerns and call on you, the Attorney General of Israel, to ensure that Mousa is not administratively detained without charge or trial.
Mousa has for many years been a lead organizer in peaceful, non violent protest and worked alongside hundredss of international and Israelis activists in resisting the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. He is well known as a passionate advocate of non violent resistance and has many Israeli friends who can vouch for his peaceful political commitments and his character.
I, the undersigned, would like to see this issue addressed immediately and through the appropriate channels and ensure that he is released immediately.
Thank you for you time.
Yours sincerely,
(Insert name)
For more info contact:info@gush-shalom.org
It will be interesting to see how many Palestinians and Jews will need to die, and how horribly the World will need to be transformed by this ridiculous criminal land grab before the majority of the People realize that the concept of Nation-States ITSELF is horribly impractical and destructive.
Remember always Those who Strive for Palestinian Statehood:
This whole mess is the result of the strivance for Jewish Statehood.
Perhaps it's STATEHOOD, Palestinian, Jewish, U.S.A.-an, Irish, et al that is the TRUE problem? The ACTUAL flaw in our attempt to govern human society?
No, no, go back to sleep Nation-State Subjects, there is nothing to see here.
-matti.
Yes, RichM, and a significant portion of nations have a state religion. The Jewish state was founded because Jews were, are, and will be treated as second-class citizens in most nations. There are just too many half-wits in the area who couldn't, can't, and never will stand for heathens in their midst. The Palestinians have a democracy and they elected a government whose central political purpose is the death of Jews and the destruction of Israel at all costs.
Almost makes one believe in the Protocols:
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm
For some reason, it won't let me edit the above post.
In any case, according to the CIA factbook, there are roughly 6.4 million Israeli citizens, of which 1.28 are Arab. There are also 2.5 million West Bank Palestinians and 1.5 million Gaza Palestinians. All of which means, that contrary to what Burston says above, Jewish Israelis and Palestinians are currently roughly equal in terms of population.
Bradley Burston is one of the writers who make Haaretz worthwhile to read.
As he clearly sees here, it is grossly unjust for middle class or wealthy Jews from California like himself to be able to settle in Israel, while those Palestinians who were thrown out of Israel in 48 and 67 and their descendents are not even allowed to visit there as tourists, unless they do so with passports issued from countries on friendly terms with Israel, let alone being able to perminantly settle there.
As a American, forced to pay taxes that support Israel, I am sickened that that state has been allowed to discriminate so completely against its indigenous inhabitants. Would any Americans for example be happy if the US catagorized the remaining Native Americans as foreigners or second-class citizens in this country? Why then are we subsidizing Israel to do just that to the Palestinians?
I am happy to see that Burston supports a Palestinian state. That said, I would be happier if the population figures he cites were more accurate. According the CIA factbook (which is probably the most accurate source on such things), there are 6.4 million Israeli citizens, of which 20 % roughly are Arab or Palestinian amounting to 1.28 million people. According to the same source, There are 2.5 million West Bank Palestinians and 1.5 million Gaza Palestinians. Which means that there are Jewish Israelis and Palestinians are roughly equal in population in the territories ruled by the Israeli gov't.
It's astonishing that American citizens, who (despite the grievous deficiencies of our political education) were at least raised to respect the principle of separating church & state, should have widespread difficulty recognizing the problem inherent in a state designed to consider members of one religion first-class citizens, with all others being relegated to second-class status.
This whole Israeli/Palestinian business is just a glaring example of the pitfalls of allowing people to claim land in the name of non-existent gods. There should not be a "Jewish state" or a "Palestinian state," there should be a secular democracy that recognizes the rights of all its citizens and leaves their religious beliefs to the personal realm where they belong. The "My god gave me this piece of land!" crap never works. It always guarantees a long future of oppression and resentment and ultimately violence.
A peaceful settlement must be fair if it is to occur. The Israelis won't accept any fair settlement, because most have been indoctrinated from young childhood that the land they want is theirs as a gift from God. (They fail to point out the extent to which they have rejected the Covenant between God and Moses' people.)
Bradley leaves the impression the Israeli Jews outnumber Palestinians by over 2 to 1, while in reality the ratio is not much over 1, and is decreasing with time. That is one of the reasons Israel is maintaining high rates of infant and child mortality in Palestine: to delay the moment at which they are outnumbered.
The intifadas failed because they were protest movements, and Israel responds to protests by killing protesters, and killing those who object to their killing protesters. Israel does not want peace until it has all it believes it can get away with stealing.
A fair 2 state solution would require Israeli territory to shrink significantly smaller than the pre-1967 borders, even the proposed 1947 borders. Thus, it is extremely unlikely to happen. A one state solution with full rights for Palestinians is the only practical solution, in my opinion, although a purely Jewish state much smaller than the present Israel is a compatible option.
Poor Bradley. His chosen few have beaten up the natives a little too much during their armed robbery.
Why the implication that the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza are the only Palestinians around? How many Palestinian refugees are in the surrounding countries? How many "Israelis" are really Americans, Europeans or economic refugees from ex-Soviet countries?
The Zionists have no right to the lands they are trying to steal. If they want to divide up some land - go somewhere else where they can buy it. The locals still do not want to let them steal it. This is the Palestinian Struggle.
Do Jews care if this issue could cause a global Holocaust?
The Israelis and the U.S. have the Palestinians "up against the wall" and would crush them out of existence if they could---all they need is a pretext citing security interests. The Palestinian struggle has become too strong a symbol for Islamic terorism for them to do otherwise.
I feel similarly. The policy of the US & Israel is pure hardball, aimed at crushing the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people. Considerations of justice play no role whatsoever in the policy. Like the US, Israeli society seems to have some decent elements left in it, but is ruled by that society's worst & most reactionary elements. And as with the US, it is entirely possible that even in "winning" its wars of aggression, the society itself will be consumed by the poison intrinsic to that aggression.