America's Whipping Boy For 9/11
As a high school freshman, attending a small private prep school, I was one of a number of pranksters. We made the flag disappear from the flagpole. We put goofy hats on the bust of the school patron in the foyer. We organized silent boycotts of the greasy French fries in the lunch room. We dropped books on cue in Latin class.
One day, we went some act of mischief too far, and the headmaster went ballistic at morning assembly. A buzz of anxiety coursed through the school. I forget how, but the damning finger soon pointed to me, and I took the fall. I was summoned to the headmaster's office, where, wielding a stick with grave ceremony ("This hurts me more than it hurts you"), he inflicted multiple blows on my backside.
The memory of the pain I felt has faded, but not the humiliation. In those days, such corporal punishment was not unusual in schools, and "spanking" was ubiquitous in families. It is notable today how such public violence as a method of disciplining children has become taboo, even if children are still shockingly at risk for abuse in private.
But that memory is revealing to me now as an instance of scapegoating, and the lesson it offers in the social use to which designated victims are put. I was not consciously attuned to the sadomasochistic undercurrent of the event, but inwardly I burned with shame to have been so treated, especially by a figure whose authority was absolute.
Yet the most striking aspect of the experience was the sharp contrast between the private mortification I felt at being beaten in such a way and the public respect it earned me. My degradation stood in marked contrast to the new status I found myself occupying in the aftermath of my "strokes," as the blows were called. My schoolmates quietly treated me with an unprecedented deference which, at the time, was mystifying. How could such an experience of shaming lead to what was, in effect, a social promotion?
It was not only that I took the punishment that could have been meted out to a handful of others who went undisciplined. It was also that the headmaster's rage had been mollified, and the communal anguish that had upset the school had been dispelled. The punishment inflicted on me sparked a broad sense of relief, and the gaze with which my mates greeted me was infused with gratitude.
The aftermath of my beating was a period of good feeling in the school. The headmaster's authority had been reinforced, and with it the structure of order. The affectionate bond among us boys was strengthened as well, and even I felt somehow ennobled. Crucial to this outcome was the fact that I had been physically hurt. A mere bawling out would have resulted in no such mystical cohesion.
Now I understand that violence can have this effect across a range of social situations. Indeed, hurt-induced mystical cohesion accounts in large part for why we humans are addicted to turning on each other with weapons. We find an infinite variety of victims, and their suffering serves a social purpose. African-American men subjected with wild disproportionality to the caged violence of prisons. Muslim "terrorists" in torture camps. Enslaved women. Death row. In case after case, threatened authority locates a victim on whom to unload.
Whether the designated object of punishment is guilty (Saddam Hussein, say) or innocent (the American soldiers whose faces we see on the news each night) does not matter. This impulse to salve communal anxiety by inflicting hurt was the defining core of American public life after Sept. 11. It engendered the present war.
Up until the point of his "Mission Accomplished" celebration on that aircraft carrier, President Bush was the self-satisfied headmaster, and Baghdad was the chastened, if mulish, pupil. An ennobled US population was mainly pleased. No more. The war in Iraq is demonstrably mistaken by now, and American authority has self-destructed. Shame abounds.
In deciding what to do next, we should not compound the mistake by pretending any longer that the adventure was ever rational, just, or any more purposeful than taking a stick to a child in a fit of rage.
James Carroll's column appears regularly in the Globe.
© 2008 The Boston Globe
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501 Comments so far
Show AllPeople need
to heed !
We are indeed.
With that we are 100% agreed.
All of the crazy bullshit that has been publshed about the World Trade Center disaster, is just as Crazy as that which has been published about the Pentagon crash. It boggles the mind of how many idiotic articles that have been written about it.
We need a decent investigation on it all.
Here's something of interest, about BREAKING THE LAWS OF NATURE:
Hollow point April 19th, 2008 8:16 pm
Bill wait till my home made invention is finished. Heat your home for almost free and 100% clean
==============
Billy_y4 April 19th, 2008 9:13 pm
Hollow point,
Sounds good. I hope I will be allowed to use it. As an engineer, they will jail me if I break the first law of thermodynamics.
Bill
==============
kendpotter April 21st, 2008 10:25 am
Billy,
Is understanding the three laws of thermodynamics still required of a scientist? Do they take you card away and change the secret hand-shake?
I laughed right into my computer screen and had to clean it when I read your commment.
Thanks!!!
==============
namaste April 22nd, 2008 1:16 pm
it's a whole new level of being accountable, to the "Laws of the Universe"
I'll bet geo has been frustrated at not being able to break them, too …
NOPE, never. I never said he lied. He was an expert on aircraft crashes. I did say that YOU obviously have a severe reading disability. Better memorize what I wrote on two posts about that subject, which I see you have now chosen to revert to, instead of the Pentagon issue.
If you write to me again, you'll be talking to yourself. So Rave on to your heart's content.
KEM, you say you know Col. George Nelson. Is he a liar?
~OCULUS~ I now order you to pack one small ditty bag of personal belongings. Then go to the spooky house in Ohio where the movie Psycho was fimed and surrender to ~JAKE~. Better take some candles, a Zippo and a wool blanket. Hear it's dark and cold in that cellar.
You might also pack some dried fruit, peanut butter cheeze crackers and candy bars. Otherwise, all you'll get is popcorn and water. ~Bye~ ___ We're gonna miss you Ouk.
OCULUS I choose to believe the article and the photo evidence which was taken at the Pentagon by passerbys and the accounts of the many eye witnesses. I'll go along with Hoffman, that a 757 did crash there. If you wish to doubt it, that's your perogative.
There are literally hundreds of articles published by people who say a 757 din't strike the Pentagon and who also state no aircraft parts were ever found there, that the hole was way too small, that eye witnesses saw a missle hit the bulding, that the aircraft was flown some place and all of the passengers were murdered etc.
For starters they begin with,___ "it was not a 757 aircraft and no aircraft parts were found there". ___That is an outright lie. Many 757 parts were found there and were photographed there by many people who had nothing at all do to do with the government. I would stop right there and say the authors of those false articles, which may sound so convincings are liars and not believe another word they wrote. Becuse there were many parts for a 757 aircraft found there, tons of them and that alone, discredits their entire article. If any wished ot bellieve them and ignore the truth, that's their perogative.
Well your arguing with the geologists who state otherwise Brian.
What the autor states in his article is, if the Arctic methane burps out, Global warming will really magnify beyone anything projected. When that happens and it would happen suddenly, and within a year, or maybe two years, the really huge amounts of methane which is locked up in the bottoms of the oceans will also burp out. When THEY "burp" out like is now occuring in much smaller amounts in the Arctic, all life will be eradicated within hours.
Scientists have proven that indeed it did occur twice in Earth's history. They base their findings upon the bones, etc, of animals which ALL died at the same time, all over the earth. In those SAME time frames, are a half to an inch inch thick lawer of methane and it is found everwhere a that level all around the globe. That much methane released at one time, would have killed everything, except some deep sea creatures, some bacteria and perahps some small rodents. ___ I will not argue their findings.
Kem,
I wasn't disagreeing or challenging your concerns, only to try to get a rough estimate of the time frame the methane release would take. 400 gigatons of methane is comparable to the estimated 700 GT of carbon currently in the atmosphere.
My rough estimate of a process that would take (much less than) decades is VERY rapid geologically and could very well be the most rapid climate threat out there, like you are suggesting.
Th article below (link doesn't seem to underline?, you can find it by searching "methane hydrate abrupt") gives potential methane hydrates of 10,000 gigatons in the continental shelves, that would also be released if the melting permafrost methane led to runaway greenhouse effect.
http://www.geotimes.org/nov04/feature_climate.html/
However, someone claiming a geological process that occurred 250,000,000 years ago occurred in "a few hours" is probably extrapolating beyond the range justified by the data. Even 20,000 years would be a "burp" geologically.
KEM, I think that the link you gave, www. 911research. com, is an excellent resource. Have you looked at what it has to say about the World Trade Center? There is actually a lot of good information regarding the WTC evidence on that site -- click on the HOME for the main page. On the left column, you will see a navigation bar with various topics linking to analysis, photographs, video and other evidence.
Regarding the Pentagon site, I'm not going to try to sell you on the idea that a 757 didn't crash there. I have a great deal or respect for the research efforts of Jim Hoffman, the webmaster behind www. 911research. com, and he agrees with you that the building was hit by a Boeing 757. I'm not convinced for the many reasons I've cited, including the fact that the photographic evidence provided to the public by the Department of Defense at the Moussaoui trial is suspect -- it conflicts with testimony by Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, the original CNN report by Jamie McIntyre on that day, and the testimony of many other witnesses. In the end, however, this debate is a bit of a distraction in that it doesn't alter the mounds of other very compelling evidence supporting the "inside job" hypothesis.
You might look up OPERATION NORTHWOODS, Kem. This is a 1962 plan that was unanimously endorsed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff to create staged terror attacks in various U.S. cities, on the U.S. base in Guantanamo and in international waters as a pretext for a U.S. "counter-strike" against Cuba. The technique is called a false-flag operation. You can read the original declassified documents on the National Security Archives website at http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/ (where you will find a link to a PDF document).
The reason why this document is so important is that it establishes precedent (every one of the Joint Chiefs approved what amounts to human sacrifice of innocent American and Cuban civilians as a pretext for going after Castro). The document also describes some of the specific techniques considered, including substituting a commuter plane for a drone and destroying it, blaming the destruction on the Cubans. Ultimately, President Kennedy nixed the plan. However, there have been other false flag attacks perpetrated on U.S. soil by rogue elements within our government in the intervening years. It's not a new technique (or uniquely American... it's as old as humanity, I suspect), and it won't cease to be effective until a significant percentage of the public wises up.
The methane gas issue is far more important than this issue is. FAR MORE.
Hi NAMASTE. Aircrft aluminum is unlike that used in other vehicles, it's lighter by far and has a considerable amount of magnesium in it.
I claim the fires in the towers would have been far higher than were publised by the NIST. The heat in the central cores of the buildings would have been far higher than they stated and would have been hot enough to melt metal, steel, etc. That would explain pools of molten metal found at the site, thermte explosives would not.
Finally, do you actually believe thermite would have been the explosive used to bring down a high rises? And again the burning aircraft and burned or molten steel would give spectroanalysis readings of dust taken at the site, which would give graph readings very similar to thermte. You have agreed the aircraft had to have burned and in addition to the hundreds of tons of AIRCRAFT aluminum, there were also tons of magnesium in the combined landng gear components, wheels and engine parts, which also burned ___ at the SAME temps the AIRCRAFT ALUMINUM burned. Near 4,000 degree F. (Just little fires, where only two hoses were needed to fight them.) according to some others ___LOL.
~BRIAN~It doesn't do a bit of good to say I'm wrong about the methane issue. I'm not the expert on that, the aurhor of the article is and you are saying he and hundreds of other scientists are wrong. Are you a geologist and an exert on methane too? In that article I provided, it states that once previously here on Earth, the methane wiped out almost all land life within hours and over 90% of the sea life.
Another time it took a few weeks or months to accomplish that, according to many other scientists.___ "Once the methane begins to bloom out, there is no turning back, it cannot be stopped" ___ is what the scientist who have spent their entire adult lives studying the planet state. I'll take their word for that, you can do as you desire.
If you believe the 400 gigaton figure is a wrong figure, you should consider contacting the scientis who say it is correct and give them your estimates and valued advice on the subject. I personally would much prefer you were correct but question that you are, unless you are an experienced and highly regarded geologist.
~OCULUS ~ You asked me where you could see pictures of aircraft parts etc at the Pentagon because you had never seen any.
I spent considerable time explaining to you how to locate them. I thought those many photographs and the many eye witness accounts answered any statments made by ANYONE who claim that the hijacked aircraft didn't hit the Pentagon are false.
I therefore felt it was not necessary to reply to the col's statements, they obviously are false or false opinions. That opinion is based upon the photographic evidence given in that link I provided whih I thought may help you to see there is another side to the hundreds of Pentagon stoies which you obviously never heard or don't wish to even consider as factual.
What can I say about the Cols statement, except to say I believe he failed to see the 757 aircraft parts and the large hole in the side of the Pentagon where the 757 struck. Maybe he is brain damaged, or has a serious mental problem and wants publicity. When something like this happens nutcases crawl out of the woodwork.
If you wish to debate fairly and sensibley, debate the link I provided. You just brushed it off with no comments except to say it's wrong. If it's wrong, tell us why it's wrong.
You come back and tell me those photographs are false. I figured you probably would. Lets just forget it Oculus, obviously you didn't bother to go tho that site and if you did, you didn't tell us what was wrong with the photographs taken at the times of the crash or address the many eye witness accounts of the crash.
Jake,
I am looking at the Bazant-Verduere paper, and the Gordon Ross counter-paper. Going slowly this time (don't want to make another embarrassing simple math mistake).
I'll give you my thoughts on both papers, but probably not until the next CD 9-11 thread comes along.
Kem,
I think you are taking the methane "burp" metaphor a little too literally.
"400 gigatons of methane" looks suspiciously like the methane fraction of (an estimated) 1000 GT of methane hydrate.
Now, 1 GT is 1 cubic kilometer (of water), so we are looking at a mass comparable to 1000 cu.km (frozen methane hydrate being comparable in density to water ice, roughly).
The area of the earth surface between 60 and 85 degrees N latitude is around 2 million sq. km. Not all of this is tundra, but it gives a rough estimate of the potential frozen tundra.
So we would have an average depth of frozen methane as follows:
1,000 km3 / 2,000,000 km2 = 0.5 meters
So the average depth of frozen methane, if uniformly distributed, would be on the order of a meter.
This wouldn't melt "overnight", but it wouldn't take decades, either.
I'll have to read more on this, and follow the discussion on the "yellow bird" thread. Thanks for the links you have provided.
Namaste wrote:
"I sure thought that so many teeth would bring KEM 'round..."
Looks like that toothy grin only made KEM more firm in his position. KEM, has it ever occured to you that implosion technology has advanced considerably since your meeting with Jeannie "Lips" Rose? I'd guess that Ms. Rose's suckcessors saw those 110-story twin phallusses as irresistible challenges...
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
KEM, you didn't respond to the testimonies of Major General Stubblebine or Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski that I posted. To be honest, I don't know that the photos of aircraft wreckage from the Pentagon site are terribly reliable, since nearly all of the images that purport to show something were issued by the Department of Defense much later. I wasn't at the site, so I can't comment from direct experience, but there are too many aspects of the Pentagon attack that don't reconcile with the official narrative. Here's are just a few:
1) The Ted Olson testimony regarding his wife's cell phone call strains credulity (and technological limitations of the day)
2) The alleged hijack pilot, Hani Hanjour, could barely handle a Cessna 172. The notion that he could hop into the cockpit of a 757 and pull off a maneuver that most (possibly all?) much more experienced pilots can't do in a simulator is also a head-scratcher. Remember, Hanjour allegedly piloted this commercial airliner in a tight, rapidly descending spiral and then leveled off close enough to the ground to clip five light poles, accelerating to about 450 knots into the bottom floors of Pentagon's freshly reinforced "Wedge 1". I'm not a pilot, but I hear things like "ground effect" might befuddle an inexperienced pilot. I would also expect engines at full throttle to leave furrows in the Pentagon lawn, but I didn't see any evidence of that.
3) With all the surveillance cameras ringing one of the most secure sites on the planet (I've heard estimates of 80+ cameras), the DoD has yet to release video footage that shows a plane striking the building.
4) There is the disturbing testimony of folks like Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, who was there on the scene, and also a report from Jamie McIntyre, CNN's senior Pentagon correspondent since November 1992. McIntyre is on tape reporting:
"From my close up inspection there's no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon. . . . . The only pieces left that you can see are small enough that you could pick up in your hand. There are no large tail sections, wing sections, fuselage - nothing like that anywhere around which would indicate that the entire plane crashed into the side of the Pentagon. . . . It wasn't till about 45 minutes later . . . that all of the floors collapsed."
Curiously, McIntyre later reverses himself... I'll look for the YouTube videos showing his contradictory statements...
Namaste, rather than use up so much of CD's data storage saying nothing, why won't you do something constructive like address the Bazant and Verduere paper? You've said nothing on that for five days now.
Black holes Suck? ______Alright!!! When I was stationed in Japan, I once took the famous Jeannie "Lips" Rose to the offcicers club for dinner and a show and they threw us both out. After that I was famous too. She could suck the air out of a bedroom and the walls would implode. Hey I love those pics of babe there, but no finger? You're gonna piss Jake off. She has nice tits though.
I've been looking for that link again for ~OCULUS~ ___Okay read it slow and several times ~Ouk~ because you actualy do have a learing or reading disability. I'm a little dyslexic so can sympathize. Can't speel for shit either.
Google aircraft crashes. Got that? When the first screen opens look over on the right and you'll see the words (pictures of aircraft Crashes) Click on that and wait for the next screen to open.
When the next screen opens, scroll down to 9-11 Research Pentagon photos. Click on that link. When that screen opens, you will see pictures of the Pentagon crash, including both badly damaged jet engnes, aircraft parts, including the skelatel remains of both wings, which is what one should expect to find. There are pieces of the tail section which did not burn.
The hole in the Pentagon wall is of the proper size for a 757s fuselage, which is not a wide body jet aircraft. It's not quite as large as I had previously said. The other photo I saw there were no men standing at the hole and at close range it looked tobe almost as large as the Holland tunnel. With several firemen men standing in it, it made more sense, I wondered why the hole was so large when the wings didn't go in with the fuselage. The opening is a hell of a lot larger than any missile or drone aircraft and a tractor trailer could drive through it.
I read several other accounts of the scam of the Pentagon crash, there are hundreds of those. Some said the engines were not large enough to be 757 engines. They're wrong and also wrong that the pssengers were flown to Ohio and executed. The A/C transponder had been shut off, but controllers were able to track it and it did fly to the area of the Pentagon at speeds of 500 knots. The A/c transponders make it difficut to track an aircraft and exact altitude is not known.
Turbo fan engines are very large at the intake where the fan blades are. The jet engne which drives the fans are not that big, the fan opening is about eight or nine feet across, the compressor inlet is from four to five feet across, depending upon the model engine. The engine compressor, combustion and hot sections cannot be seen by passengers.
The pictures of the engines at the Pentagon crash site are missing the fan blades and that would be expected. Those blades would have flown all over the place for hundreds of feet. Anyway, there was a lot of aircraft parts photographed there except for most of major portions which burned in the ensuing fuel fires.
Also on that screen, you can click onto several other links and read many eye-witness accounts, etc. Don't ask me this question again, ~Ouk~, or I will have you banished to spend the rest of your life in ~Jakes~ cellar. Have you ever seen __ "The Silence of the Lambs"?
I sure thought that so many teeth would bring KEM 'round,
but he's off fighting methane burps and the end of migrating birds.
Oculus -- I seek forgiveness,
for I had forgotten that Black Holes really do suck,
so gravity is superimposed both down and encircularlyfying, ( spaghettifying ), or skinnycylndricalifying ?
KEM -- I spent several hours going through many interesting sites about Al burning.
There were both ships and anti-personnel carriers that proved to be no match for 1.) burning, 2.) slicing/dicing those inside, and 3.) poisoning them with noxious fumes.
It turns out that some (rather dull) bullets can start some Al on fire, and they did even need to use molten Cu to pierce through the armour.
Yes Airplanes do burn, yes they burn very nastily. I've even read the the Al shattering effect would speed the burning, by massively increasing the surface area -- but nonetheless, I'm still not convinced.
The evidence is that even if the airplanes BURN very BRIGHTLY - and were made of 100% Magnesium - that progressive collapse would only happen in JAKE's mind, at worse we would have lost the top floors above the crash sites.
The BEST CURRENT evidence cannot support anything even close to the conspiracy theory of the 911 commission, and the fickle finger of fate points directly at darth cheney. He deserves to be flayed alive and feed to well-feed ants, but I would agree to life in prison, with geo as his bunk mate.
Namaste
The testimony of Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski is also puzzling. Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (retired) was Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. She also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force career. Member adjunct faculty, Political Science Department, James Madison University. She was at the Pentagon when it was struck and saw the scene first hand:
Her testimony:
"There was a dearth of visible debris on the relatively unmarked [Pentagon] lawn, where I stood only minutes after the impact. Beyond this strange absence of airliner debris, there was no sign of the kind of damage to the Pentagon structure one would expect from the impact of a large airliner. This visible evidence or lack thereof may also have been apparent to the secretary of defense [Donald Rumsfeld], who in an unfortunate slip of the tongue referred to the aircraft that slammed into the Pentagon as a "missile"...
"I saw nothing of significance at the point of impact - no airplane metal or cargo debris was blowing on the lawn in front of the damaged building as smoke billowed from within the Pentagon... all of us staring at the Pentagon that morning were indeed looking for such debris, but what we expected to see was not evident.
The same is true with regard to the kind of damage we expected... But I did not see this kind of damage. Rather, the facade had a rather small hole, no larger than 20 feet in diameter. Although this facade later collapsed, it remained standing for 30 or 40 minutes, with the roof line remaining relatively straight.
The scene, in short, was not what I would have expected from a strike by a large jetliner. It was, however, exactly what one would expect if a missile had struck the Pentagon...."
These assessments (and many more) are compiled on the site www .patriotsquestion911. com
Namaste wrote:
"Actually Oculus — Black hole's gravity have been discussed as a method of turning real characters into cartoon "spaghetti"-forms, which although a bummer, is not DOWN — but annularly INWARDly directed — perhaps an epiphany might result ?"
So are you suggesting that gravity also brings you 'round? So confining Jake and Kem in a powerful potential well might do the trick, you think?
KEM, what do you think about Major General Albert Stubblebine's assessment of the Pentagon crash site? General Stubblebine was "Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984. Also commanded the U.S. Army's Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army's Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career. "
This is what he said in a video (7/11/06):
"One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army's Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, 'The plane does not fit in that hole'. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?"
Can you point me to photos that show an aircraft's tail section on the Pentagon lawn? I haven't seen those.
Hey ~NAM~, since I'm on ~Jake's~ team on this debate, how about a picture for me? I'd rather have Julia Roberts mooning me though. Butt, the only one I ever saw of her on her knees was her kneeling in front of Richard Geer as he sat on a piano bench. ___ Very erotic. ___ Maybe you could find one of the gals in Doing Dallas.
Howzbout doze aircraft crash pics too? Whattaya tink?
I see no one has replied to my two posts about asking for "aircraft crashes" and examing the photographs of the Pentagon at the time of the crash and hours after the crash. Then the so called little hole in he outer wall of the pentagon which was created by a "missile", turns out to be about as large in diameter as the Holland tunnel. The pictures of the damaged aircraft engine and large aircraft parts lying outsied the hole were actually studio mockups used in the movie Airplane.
Funny how some blogs here are totally and convenietly ignored.
Someone please tell us those dozens of aircraft crash photos must be doctored, because the Secret Service, Blackwater troops, the CIA, FBI , OSI, 007, Dick Tracy, Connie Rice and Karl Rove confiscated ALL of the pictures taken by the hundreds of eye witnesses.
The hi-jacked aircraft, which wasn't really hi-jacked was actually flown to Ohio and they had a serial killer dispose of all the passengers and sent the Arabs home on a space shuttle. But the video of the gal in the pure white pants is legit.
Actually Oculus -- Black hole's gravity have been discussed as a method of turning real characters into cartoon "spaghetti"-forms, which although a bummer, is not DOWN -- but annularly INWARDly directed -- perhaps an epiphany might result ?
I believe that GK Chesterton called "it" the s u s p e n s i o n __ o f __ d i s b e l i e f _Beep B e e e … E E E P
Hi ~Brian~, I've read a report wtritten in 2004 by a world renound geologist, who states once the temperature increases a few degrees and the Arctic tundra perma frost begins to melt, the 400 gigatons of trapped methane will bloom or "BURP" out almost overnight and we'll all be dead within a few hours. That methane burp has occurred twice previously in Earth's history. Scientific evidence has proven that.
Did you see the science program yesterday where some now unfrozen lake in the Arctic the methane it billowing out into the atmosphere like a volcano. It's started already. Read this link, it takes two to three minutes and is a hell of a lot more important than thermite bombs and buring aluminum. I'm not qualified to argue about what the author says, so until someone says he's full of shit I'll accept what he and hundreds of other scientists say. They just argue about how long we have left. A lot of people don't wish to believe we are subject ot being exterminated so they argue it, and or deny it.
Read the new thread posted here today on C/D with the yellow birdie picture on it. Here's the link, let me know what yout think about it. _____Thanks ~KEM~.
http://www.energybulletin.net/3647.html
Gravity only brings ya down. If only we could all be as lucky as Jake, who has managed not to wallow in this oppressive negativity despite the grim topic. I imagine Jake's the type of person that could chase Road Runner off a cliff and still manage to remain aloft.
"¿"
And you call *me* crazy.
¿ It's nice that J A K E doesn't let the WEIGHT of GRAVITY hold him back, yes ?
"as it was discussed"
As it was *wildly speculated* beyond all reason with zero evidence.
"I'm PEERing"
I don't care what you are doing, and just instead note that you did not say anything about the paper I linked to either.
JAKE _ I'm PEERing right over your VIEW, and I don't see NOTHING of MERIT.Just because science moves in leaps and bounds
HARDLY means that those movements are ALWAYS
in the same directionPerhaps it's a rare form of double myopia, kind of like DBL pneumonia ?
The JAKESTER -- loves to accuse others of not reading his previous posts, in a simulated tizzy.
He knows very well about lasers, & wifi, and others -- and NO det cord -- as it was discussed just a few FEET over our heads (~ here).
¿ I guess cherry picking also includes the selected and biased recall properties, to embellish his credibility ( although granted it could use a boost, here and there ) ?
Your wires are showing, JAKE
*Laws of physics rule out gravity-driven failures*
False. Vwrious peer reviewed papers explain how, while *no* peer reviewed papers disprove gravity driven collapse. You can pretend it's otherwise, and you certainly said nothing to counter the particular paper I linked to.
"The WTC demolitions weren't old-school."
Oh do tell. It was the highly experimental and as yet unknown technology right? That's also easy to beleive, and you don't even have to offer evidence, you can just say so.
Namaste wrote:
"Oculus — You wouldn't be being factious about SERIOUS evidence from FBI investigators that KNOW that there was only 1 (not 2) calls of LENGTH 0 seconds?
Never underestimate the ability of married couples to communicate wordlessly.
Jakenewton wrote:
"That's right oculus, it's much easier to believe the part about wiring three buildnings for controlled demolition. And then to fly planes into two of those buildings, wherby the collision and fires would of course, have no effect on the arranged explosives. Much easier."
Yes.
...although I would quibble with some of your word-choice. First, it's not a matter of belief. Laws of physics rule out gravity-driven failures, leaving controlled demolition as the only alternative (Unless you can you think of another?). Also, for me the word wiring evokes images of conventional old-school demolition techniques involving miles of det-cord, etc. The WTC demolitions weren't old-school.
Oculus -- You wouldn't be being factious about SERIOUS evidence from FBI investigators that KNOW that there was only 1 (not 2) calls of LENGTH 0 seconds?
… so the secret's out, you do know how they wired them so they wouldn't fail ( "have no effect"), even after the crashes.
a HA !
That's right oculus, it's much easier to believe the part about wiring three buildnings for controlled demolition. And then to fly planes into two of those buildings, wherby the collision and fires would of course, have no effect on the arranged explosives. Much easier.
Namaste wrote:
"106- 999.) My doggy ate the evidence..."
This is 100% SO NOT TRUE!! You've already forgotten the fabulously preserved passport that fluttered through the core of WTC1 and the jet-fuel fireball, falling serendipitously into the hands of a concerned and unidentified passerby (with tightly cropped hair, dark suit, dark glasses, and a handsome wire protruding from his ear [I'm speculating here]), who promptly delivered this astounding piece of evidence to New York City's finest, thus establishing the fact that at least one man with a suspicious funny-sounding name was on AA Flight 11. (Does radical Islam have reliquaries? If so, I suspect adherents are mounting a mission even as I type to retrieve this miraculous passport that survived not only fire and steel, but also -- and this is the real miracle -- our government's carelessness in hanging onto critical evidence.)
Oh wait...
You're talking about the Pentagon...
But now hold on! We have the unimpeachable testimony of former Solicitor General Ted Olson. Mr. Olson claimed he received a cell phone call (or was it from an Airfone? No, wait, AA Boeing 757s didn't have Airfones on 9/11...Must have been a cell) from his wife Barbara, who was on AA Flight 77 (allegedly destined for the Pentagon). It is because of this remarkable phone call that we know so much about the hijackers on Flight 77. For example, we know how these five smallish men overpowered 64 passengers and crew, including weightlifter/boxer and former Navy pilot Charles Burlingame, with boxcutters. If it were possible to build a reliquary for something as ephemeral as a phone call, this Olson-to-Olson transmission would certainly be deserving.
Kem,
On a different note, I read a USGS paper (after seeing your methane link article) that stated that the methane release from hydrates and clathrates could continue, once started, for *20,000* years. And that it would then take up to 200,000 years for geologic processes to remove the methane from the atmosphere.
What are your thoughts on the time frame indicated by these numbers? How does this compare to time frames for other climate threats?
"It also smoked out jakenewton as responding to the *source* of comments, rather than their content."
You sure did, it wouldn't have been an Engineer Joke if an Engineer didn't say it. The one about the glass being twice the capcity needed vis a vis the water therin is a lot funnier anyway.
Well ~Namaste~ Google the link I sggested. "Aircraft crashes". There are literaly dozens of photos taken by citizens who were right there. There is a picture of one of the entire damaged jet engines easily identifiable as one that would be used by a 757 aircraft. I have not seen the video from the gas station.
There are pictures of the aircraft's rear sections which didn't burn. Pictures of burned wings, where only the aluminum skin had burned to dust. Some were taken after sunset of the firemen dtill hosing fires, so the aluminum an danymagnesium parts burned for at least seven hours. A hole in the side of the building which no missile but perhaps doubled Titans or Atlas ICBMs could have made.
If all you have seen or read is the propaganda it was not an aircraft, then you are sorely misinformed. If you beleive the hi-jacked aircraft was flown to Ohio and the passengers disposed of in some manner, I'm be very surprised, shocked in fact, that YOU would accept that. What did Cheney's words mean? I'd have to have ALL of his prior conversations about the incident and know in what context he spoke.
~Brian~, I'm really glad to know you were joking about that, you had me worried. I know by your post that you are very intelligent.
Let's see, off the top of my head:
1-99) Ask Darth Cheney what he was referring to about "… Yes of COURSE, the orders still stand, have you heard anything else?", and then SMASH bambozzel "it" hits
(100.) I'd be sure not to subvert national security to just look at that MOBIL oil station video, of that "IT" that hit the pentagon, much less the other extremely high resolution recordings elsewhere. Exactly how does the video disrupt national security again? Oh it was the security of our national leaders, oh I get "IT" wink wink nudge nudge.
101.) WHy the only jet engine parts found appear to best fit into a cruise missile, not a 757 airliner?
102.) I'm so certain that any terrorist worth his salt, would ONLY choose the only wall segment that had already recently had massively retrofits for a possible strike by an aircraft, while piloting some 400° of a circle around the entire structure -- perhaps somebody forgot about that particular part of the software in the cruise missile's programing ?
103.) So we had 5 independent air simulations of aircraft flying into buildings, ONLY that morning (ever), and STILL we get brain-dead #1, #2, #3, … #n ALL saying that there was never _ a n y _ evidence that that would ever happen in the USA, or possibly be scheduled (per 6 of our allies INTEL experts telling us so, in early Spet '02) ???
104.) That idiot DBL Jointed chief of SHIT MEYERS (oh that's, right be got the promotion AFTER) was in charge and gave congressional testimony that our scramble jets, NORAD, and the FAA coordination -- were functioning thousands of times better (than they would have, w/o the 5 exercises having been occurring simultaneously - to the NY/DC disasters).
105.) That ~ 3 mo prior to 911, the AUTOMATIC scrambling of air-force jets IMMEDIATELY (within 5 min) of the FAA detecting anything wrong -- which had worked dozens of times successfully for decades have an average of less than ~ 10 min intercept time -- was CANCELD by darth shotgun_in_the_face (to my friends, you really don't want to get me mad) cheney -- so that he was directly IN-THE-LOOP on ALL scrambling alerts to intercept aircraft … …
106- 999.) My doggy ate the evidence, the same one who consumed all of the "VIDEO" tape (now that's a JOKE, right ?) and thousands of cabinets of paper of all of the GITMO in-TERROR-a-GAG-tions …
Actually KEM DO I HAVE to tell about how very impressed I am, with the detailed legal and above board very expensive, INDEPENDENT, and thorough forensic investigations, with all of their public review and scrutiny, of ALL of the evidence (even supposedly top secret, natl security stuff) -- and at how RAPIDLY we made OBL really pay for his EVIL doings (while we were also helping him with his dialysis needs, but on the QT shsssssss)Namaste
My "radiant pressure" Engineer's joke shouldn't have had to be accompanied by LOL identifier. The two that jumped in on it were also joking, I can assure you.
It also smoked out jakenewton as responding to the *source* of comments, rather than their content.
If that was the only joke someone told, I didn't' get it. Two others jumped right on it in agreement and they weren't joking. No LOLs were submitted.
Of course you have to find smething to be critical about. That the best you could do? Aren't you glad this is buried in the archives? I sure wish it wasn't, except for my stupid blunders on the amount of magnesium.
Hey Nam, the parallel parking was a joke. It's why Robert, a friend of the family didn't have a sex change operation.
I would suspect that in the dust there would have been the burned or crushed remains of many thousands of tons of aluminum and iron,not countng any aircraft or steel beams. Imagine just how much aluminum and iron is in your house.
The entie thrust of my arguments were the aricraft would have burned and the temp levels would have far exceeded those figured by NIST and they ignored the aircraft fires. I have to leave now. See ya later, take care.
Oh BTW, what was your opinion if any on the Pentagon crash, I don't recall you ever mentioned that one.
"I see some of them also deny global warning is a myth, or it is caused from high rise buildings. I have a big problem with their thinking. ___ It is NOT correct."
At some point, failure to get the joke becomes funnier than the joke itself.
Those graph examples are close, but far from perfect. If it was thermite, spectroanalysis readings should be identical, chemicals other than aluminum and iron in the dust can be ignored by the test machine, so contamination of the dust with any other metals, etc would not be factor of the test results and final graph readings. It wasn't thermite in the dust, it was a mixture of aluminum and iron, but not of the consistnacy required to make thermite.
KEM -- I'll be honest, as I suspect that
( today, perhaps not so tomorrow -- as you may give up parallel parking forever )
that even if I could prove that there were FIVE 767's worth of Aluminum detected in the WTC dust,
you would still believe it must have come from the break rooms tin foil, and a whole lot of Al-wire that they replaced with copper wiring ( but stored it in WTC, because all the trucks were too busy … to haul it away ), or something else.
â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â–
〓〓 _G R A V I T Y_ 〓〓 is against your reasoning,
â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â–
and I wouldn't be too surprised if it started playing some jokes on you, for not listening to the physicists.
[ Parallel Parking is not the issue, consider your long debates about things that you have, while sitting on the commode ]
My goodness, it's the WAR of the Gods
of CHEMISTRY, PHYSICS, and MOMENTUM
¿ -- against PARKING --- ?
That's a good comparrison, not exact is it? What is thermite made of? ___ Aluminum and iron oxide. Serious thinking would be to THINK about the fact, because hundreds of tons of aluminum and iron burned in the fires at the site that such type dust would naturally be found at the World Trade Center area. A spectroanalysis of that dust would be close to thermite on a graph, but if it was thermite it would match almost perfectly. It doesn't come close to perfect.
Obviously some want to prove explosives had been used and those same individuals would also write papers and such to tell that the Pentagon was struck by a missiile. We know for certain that's a damn lie, but many have chosen to believe it. Thermite explosives would not turn concrete to powder and is not the choice of explosive used to implode high rises, or so I'm told.
Hi ~NAM~. Correct thinking on this issue would be to seriously consider the opinions of those who __FIRMLY__ support the notion the Twin Towers were imploded and refuse to acknowledge any reasonable alternatives___ also support the bullshit stories about the hijacked aricraft NOT striking the Pentagon and continue to spread those stupid lies.
I see some of them also deny global warning is a myth, or it is caused from high rise buildings. I have a big problem with their thinking. ___ It is NOT correct.
"Does it strike you as odd that the passport of alleged hijacker Satam al Suqami survives the WTC impact and fireball while the planes' black boxes do not? "
Ostensibly, the passport, real or fake, was planted, right? Towards what end exactly? This "what are the chances of that?" thinking is exactly backwards of the correct thinking. When you consider the *millions* of objects and events that make up what we call 911, you should ask why there aren't actually *more* "odd" events like this one for troothers to rally on:
9 1 1 m y t h s . c o m / h t m l / p a s s p o r t _ r e c o v e r e d . h t m l
Any of the random chance encounters you have during the course of a day are against large odds, but each one of them really happened.
edit?
On April 15,___ 502 pm ___this thread ___ Kem Patrick wrote, ___ "The aircraft entered the building and MOST of the aircraft stayed in the buildings".
We ALL know some aircraft parts which didn't ram into the building's central cores which were constructed with steel beams, exited the buildings, including some engine parts and outer wing sections.
In the ensuing fuel explosion which occured a split second later, it is not unlikely that some overhead luggage and other debris and passenger's personal items was also blown out of the buildings in that initial huge fire ball.
Yes that passport does strike me as very unusual, as do many other things which occurred on 9-11. I have previously posted, that I feel some of our government officals were possibly aware of the planned hijackings. If you are going to join this debate it MAY be better, if you read all of the posts first.
If you are trying to make some point with me EYEsSHUT, just go stright to the point and we can debate it.
I'm primarily arguing that the aircraft fires which were ignored by the NIST, should have been condsidered and I have explainded fully why I have that opinion.
The main fuselages did not exit either building, which is the major bulk of the aircraft. ___ Hundreds of TONS stayed in the buildings and never came out, or were any portions found. I have stated several times, some wing and other aircraft parts did exit. What's your point ~EYESWIDESHUT~? ___ Guess you failed to read all of the posts also.___ Thank you for the picture, it's interesting. I already have it however.
You ask me to prove that aircraft aluminum burns. There have literally been thousands of aircraft fires over the years and th eluminum burned. Dispute that all you like and continue to make a fool of yourself. You can see B-17s and B-24s in WW2 films on fire and the entire wings and fuselage are on fire.
Google aircraft fires as I did. There are hundreds of photos of aircraft on fire, or have burned and the aluminum is burning or has burned. I could care less if you dispute it. I've personally watched aircraft burn to nothing but soot powder and dust. How about you proving aircraft aluminum will not burn. Pure aluminum does not burn, unless powdered. Aluminum for aricraft is not pure aluminum. ___ Anything there you don't understand?
Alleged trajectory of aircract debris, including parts of landing gear and engine, exiting WTC towers after impact (from the New York State Museum website)
~WILLO~ I claim the aircraft in the towers totally burned and you ___DISPUTE___ it. I give reasonable reasons for my belief. ___ You just state you dipute it. ___ Give some logical reasons why you dispute it. Explain what happened to the two aircraft.
There is no argument they were never recoverd, except for a few small pieces. I don't know if the black boxes were ever recovered there. We're not talking little airplanes, those 767s are bigger than a 707 and the aircraft parts that were found wouldn't fill a 55 gallon drum.
Decided to not let you get the last words when it's ignorant words ~WILLO~. As I stated, you don't read all of the posts, or else you can't understand what you've read being so eager to mouth off and display your ignorance. That's not being rude BTW, it's obvious you do that.
Try again WILLO, you wasted your time with that one, it's been adequately discussed previously here on this thread. Go back and read em all, you might learn something, but I wouldn't bet on it. Glad you once again displayed just how ignorant you are on this subject.
~Namaste~ and I discussed that very radio conversation a few times previously here and he checked it out and agreed that the fire fighters NEVER reached, or entered the floors, where the aircraft were burning. They didn't in either building. That radio conversation was somewhere below where the aircraft entered and began to burn and was where aircraft fuel had gotten to lower floors and started smaller fires.
If the aircraft didn't burn up what happened to them? You have a sensible comments for that question? How about the massive yellow white fire seen on the floors where the aircraft entered, which was visible after the fuel fires had burned out and the black smoke cleared some.
You have any further comments on the burning AIRCRAFT aluminum? You check out aircraft fires on the web? Any comments on the Pentagon aircraft crash and the dozens of photos of that available? There were large sections of the A/C's tail section which had brocken off and didn't burn in that one, those tail section parts parts didn't get into the fire zone.
It WAS an aircraft that hit the Pentagon and firefighters were able to reach it as it was at ground level and they kept it from totally burning up. There are pictures there of them fighting the fires.
(3) The two 767 aircraft which crashed into the Twin Towers, (stayed in the buildings and burned). They did not just disappear, they did not vaporize, they burned
Kem
You state that as it was some indisputed fact. I dispute the fact that the aluminum burned. What proof do you have?
Ronald Bucca. [Source: Public domain]Two firefighters climbing up the South Tower, Orio Palmer and Ronald Bucca, have reached its 78th floor, the lower end of the impact zone where Flight 175 hit. [New York Times, 8/4/2002] They are just two floors below the level where, minutes later, its collapse initiates. [Federal Emergency Management Agency, 5/1/2002, pp. 2-34] Over radio, Palmer tells firefighter Joseph Leavey, "We've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines." [Dwyer and Flynn, 2005, pp. 206
I'm sure sorry this thread will be in the archives tomorrow, so others won't see how ignorant some of you are. Next time you'd better stay at home and tend to your knitting, or read some more fairy tales about 9-11.
Not talking about you ~NAMASTE~.
This will likely be my final post here. I Googled aircraft fires and there one can see pictures of aircraft on fire and the aluminum metal skin is burning feriously. Pure aluminum will not burn unless powdered, aluminum for aircraft is lighter and is not pure alumnum and it does burn.
I also studied over 40 pictures of the aircraft that struck the Pentagon and discovered that some of you guys who cliam no aircraft hit the Pentagon are spreading false rumors. There were large aircraft parts outside of the building, including tail parts and one the burned engines and the skelatil remains of the wings where the "aluminum" aircraft skin burned to soot because of the fuel carried in the wings which caught on fire.
You say the hole in the building was the size of a missile? Haaa Haaaa Haaa. Even an Atlas missile isn't near that big, the entry hole is as big as two or three of those bound together. A huge copper ore dump truck could be driven through that hole. Those pictures were taken by eye witnesses at the scene, people driving by on the nearby highway. And some state all pictures were confiscated by secret service or the FBI. Some of you guys are nuts and you have the gall to insult me and Jake. ~~Bye~~
You write another untrue comment and say I had never answered your question ~WILLO~ but in fact I had. April 18, 11.08 pm. The post right after you asked me.
Obviously you do not bother to read all of the posts others write. Therefore you are not attempting to debate with any credence. Which is very obvious. You know, when I reply to you guys, I'm writnfg in the off chance someone who is reading this and not blogging will have an opportunity to see there is another side to your strange opinions, not an attempt to convince you of anything.
I'm also glad to see those who have stated here they also deny the most serious global warming problem which helps others to understand that you are not sensible people and therefore your credibily and any degree of common sense is highly questionable. And you Globa warming guys argue with Jakenewton. ~~~ LOL.
Since ~WILLO~ and some others seem to be unsure of what I have claimed with my posts, concerning burning aircraft, I will attempt to write is so it is clearer.
(1) When aircraft crash and there is a large fuel fire, the aircraft burn up, all of it, any aluminum, magnesium, etc, that is in the fire for ten to fifteen minutes, __UNLESS__ UNLESS ___ the fires are smothered with foam fire retardent. After the a/c fuel is completely burned, which normally takes fifteen minutes, the aircraft METALS CONTINUE to burn, often for several hours. There are thousands of examples of that occurring over the years. That would be just as true if there was NO magnesium parts in the aircraft. I have never seen or heard of any modern metal aircraft that have NO magnesium.
(2) Doctor Thomas Edgar of MIT, an authority on aircraft metals, states that aircraft aluminum skin amd other parts will burn just as readily as magnesium at temps near 4,000 degrees. That is because the aluminum is composed of pure aluminum and magnesium and other metals. I do not know the %age composition of each type of metal. If any doubt that, please contact Dr. Edgar and discuus your doubts with him.
(3) The two 767 aircraft which crashed into the Twin Towers, (stayed in the buildings and burned). They did not just disappear, they did not vaporize, they burned. Once again, when they burned, they would have burned at temps near 4,000 degrees. That would not melt the buildings, it could melt any steel beams near the a/c fires. The fires would have been very large, as there were hundreds of tons of metlal which would have been mashed into a large cmpressed mass. A masive fire which would have much hotter than was reported in the NIST report, because they discounted any aircraft fire as a contributing factor. That is a major mistake on their part, because of the fact, the a/c did burn and nothing was found of them. So the assumption that they did burn up is a very safe premise, unless someone has a more plausable explination.
~NAM~ If a man changes, he won't be able to parrallel park his car anymore.
Thanks for the BOY tag ~WILLO~ I'm 72 years old and wish I was a boy. I jumped on you because you posted a blog and wrote things I have never said. Go back and read what you wrote. Then find where I ever said those things you attributed to me. I never said aircraft fires melted any buildings.
Evidently you missed several of my yesterday's posts here. I fully explained my error on the magnesiuum in 757 and 767 aircraft. I was unaware that Boeing had cut way back on the use of magnesium components in their later model aircraft. However while researchng magnesium and alumionum after ~Namaste~ brought that fact to my attention, I discovered that aluminum burns almost as hot as magnesium. It does not catch afire while welding, except where the bead is being applied as you are fully aware and I alread y replied once to yur comment about welding aluminum and fuel tankers, and gave you an example of an aluninum fuel tanker which totally burned up this week on Interstate 81 near Bristol, Tennessee.
I was fully aware aircraft aluminum will burn, but was unawere it was almost identical to burning magnesium. An article which I explained how ot find, by Nova and Doctor Thomas Edgar, a Professor of Materials Engineering Systems MIT. He states that aircraft aluminun wihich is composed of aluminum and magnesium burns just as handily as magnesium at temps near 4,000 degrees. There are hundreds of tons of aluminum in a 767 aircraft and I can give you two excellent examples of aircraft aluminum burning until nothing was left. The two 767s which burned to dust in the World Trade Center otwers. Do you find that to be false info? If so please argure it with ~Namaste~ next time for he agrees with me that the aircraft did burn up.
When you read another's posts, do you read every word and comprehend what the words meant? If you have a problem wiit understanding reading, read slow and take your time and then think about what you just read and then read it once more to be sure you didn't miss anything.
Don't you get tired of reading the same things over and over, if so why do you raise the same questions over and over?
Whoa Kem, easy boy. First you said it was a magnesium fire, once shot down on that you jump to aluminum fires. I spent a career as a metal worker and never saw aluminum catch of fire. I asked you for and example, and you haven't given any. Have a nice day!
"Is this one of those Engineer jokes?"
Yes, Jake.
MAN'S PRAYER
I'm a man
But I can change
If I have to
I guess
-----------------------------------------
Quando omni flunkus moritati
"¿ Perhaps humor can reach deep places that reason and thinking fear to enter ?"
Namaste, I agree with your assertion as repeated above. Also, thanks for elaborating the Mel Gibson-- Julia Roberts scene from "conspiracy theory". I couldn't think of a good way to do it, but you summarized it very well. Still, those who haven't seen the movie will not get the (inside) joke.
Oculus, I have enjoyed your comments this week, also, including your spoof on global warming.
Purity of Essence, Peace on Earth, Preserve your Precious Bodily Fluids.
KEM -- Yes I've been to that link, and see that the 767 does include some Mg in alloy form (per their strut parts installed in 767).
We agree that the struts (and likely wheels) would burn, and might even approach 3000 deg F, and that if all of the undeclared materials in a 757 ended up being ALL magnesium - and similarly for 767 - then that would be about 2400 lbs (however alloyed, or mixed in with other materials).
You appear to be positively convinced that even non-alloyed aluminum burns as hot as the alloyed form, that includes some Mg - or that almost all aircraft Al is alloyed in some percentage with Mg, and therefore is somewhat exothermic.
I would like to read more about how non-alloyed (almost pure) aluminum burns, or what is the minimum percentage of Mg that is required -- for Al alloys to burn similarly as Mg (or as high percentage Mg/Al alloys do).
My MAP (propane) torch does start up Mg, but wont do so for Al - so I'm conflicted - and looking for better understanding.
PLEASE do not feel that I am insisting that you do this, I am only asking for leads on this phenomenon to better establish the parameters of these two devastating crashes.
We both have much else that we might find more interesting.Namaste
I hate to leave now but Ev just brought me divorse papers to sign if I don't take her to town as I had promised three hours ago.
~By~ for now.
Col Nelson is speaking of his experience with aircraft crash investigations. And correcty states that certain aircraft parts at a crash site can be identified. That is ALMOST always true and is what I wrote. You as usual cherry pick one paragraph of my entire blog ~Oculus~.
Nelson is correct about what he says, except he did not state the aircraf totally burned at the towers and they did burn entirely. Nelson was not a crash investigator at the World Trade Center and there the aircraft burned to a crisp and therefore NOTHING was found to identify.
I also was not a crash investigator there and my opinions of the crash are as his, speculation, based upon what we do know about aircraft crashes and I based mine on the fact that NO aircraft parts of any amount were ever located. That makes perfect sense to me in leau of how they crashed and they were not put out with foam and would have burned entirely. That is not so for the other two crashes which I do not argue about.
Kem, have you heard of Operation Northwoods, a plan endorsed unanimously by all the Joint Chiefs of Staff back in 1962?
NAMASTE, I have already replied to your last questions and told where to find the articles where aluminum burns at near the same temps as magnesium. Aircraft aluninum is composed of aluminum and magnesium. Magnesium alloys used in aircraft parts are composed of magnesium and aluminum. Both burn at temps of near 4,000 degrees F if they are ignited.
I gave the link info for a compnay that manufactures aircraft and engine parts of cast magnesium for 747, 757. and ___ 767___ aircraft for Boeing. Go back and look it up if you are that interested, I'm no going to bother, it's there. I cannot answer why Boeing does anything, can you? Actually, you are being obtuse about this again in case you didn't know it.
If you wish to believe the aircraft did not burn and burn at temps of near 4,000 degrees have it your way, I don't care. But if any wish to go back and read all of our posts here, any could easily detect that you are not being consistant on the issue of the burning aircaft and how significant that is, or should have been when writing official reprts on the collapse of the Twin Towers.
KEM wrote:
"Colonel Nelson is correct about the things he stated and indeed as I have previously stated the aircraft did not VAPORIZE. He is speaking primarily however about crashes where a/c fires are smothered or they never burned."
Colonel Nelson is speaking specifically about the aircraft wreckage on 9/11. He refers to virtually indestructible parts with unique serial numbers which he expected would be used to positively identify the planes.
The internal metal components of jet engies hot sections don't burn either ~Namate~. If the alumninum rocket engine exhaust nozzels were smashed into a mass of metal and subjected to a ten or fifteen minute fuel fire, they would burn until nothing was left. I have an aluminum camp stove and an aluminum solar oven, they have never burned up either. Your rocket engine example is not relevant.
I do not understand why you continue to bring up such arguments. you and I have both agreed the aircraft entered the buildings, they did not come back out and they didn't vaporize or suddenly vanish. They burned and nothing was left of them. They burned at temps of near 4000 degrees and that is hot enough to cause steel to become molten and also cause steel beams to lose up to 80% of their strength. Do you argee or disagree with all of that? Or do you like to see me repeat that time after time?
~OCULUS~ Colonel Nelson is correct about the things he stated and indeed as I have previously stted the aircraft did not VAPPORIZE. He is speaking primarily however about crashes where a/c fires are smothered or they never burned. BTW, I know Col Melson, though we never worked together. I won't get into the Pentagon incident because I know little of it. Aircraft "black boxes", which actually are bright orange in color, are ALMOST always recovered. If they were or not at the towers I don't know.
In adition, large aircraft parts, such as landing gear and the mid frames, etc, are seldom fully destroyed, neither are the engines. I have never been at a crash site and the engines were not almost fully intact and usually the tail section is not destroyed, unless the aircraft burns totally and was essentialy a crushed mass of metal when it burned, as would surely have been the case of the two 767s which entered the Twin Towers.
There the fuel exploded and the aircraft were confined within the fire zone and were NEVER smothered with foam. After the first ten to fifteen minutes of fuel fires, which is about how long it would require for the fuel to be burned up, the aircraft aluminum and any magnesium, such as the aircraft landing gear wheels would have been burning at temps of near 4,000 degrees F. They would have been mostly toast after an hour, I can feature some of the larger a/c components fell into the basement areas when the buildings collapsed and continued to burn in the cellars.
As to why any black boxes were never found, or disappered after they were found, I cannot comment as we have no knowledge of why or what occured in that regard. I can see that why they were not found at the Trade Center fires with that eventual massive mess of rubble.
There is no question of why they crashed anyway, it was self evident and the crashes were well filmed. Indeed the aircraft tail numbers of the two 767s that struck the Twin Towers were the same a/c tail numbers as those which were hi-jacked, ___ they were not radio controlled drones.
BTW KEM, were you aware that NASA uses Aluminum alloys in rocket nozzles, at temperatures of up to 3000 deg F ?
I hate to "play act" like I was JAKE, but I've not yet seen (or been able to find on my own) any evidence on non-alloyed & solid Aluminum masses ever burning like magnesium. Could you please provide us the evidence, or references for us to also investigate it?
We have indirect evident (above) that Boeing has NOT used magnesium in civilian aircraft (due to fire & corrosion dangers), and at best Mg was < 1% of ALL of it's civilian planes before 2007.
If this is true, would not Boeing consider Al also to NOT be a fire danger, like steel, titanium, … ?
Namaste
Here's a link to Col. Nelson's full essay:
http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson
And here is a statement he made at a press conference in 2006:
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t59827.html
An excerpt:
"Hundreds of parts from each of those four aircraft are critical for safety of flight, and as such, must be meticulously controlled by only one-of-a-kind, dedicated, serial numbers. These parts are required by FAA regulations to be tracked and removed and replaced at a designated number of flying hours or a number of actual cycles. Just like the toughness of black boxes, these components are virtually indestructible and relatively easy to find among the crash wreckage.
Each of the aircraft would have two engines that are nine feet in diameter, and would have had many of the critical, serialized parts installed. Several sets of massive landing gears would have been easy to find and identify, and each of these parts would have been linked to one, and only one aircraft in the world.
The aircraft parts from the two World Trade Center buildings, the Pentagon and the hole in the ground at Shanksville, Pennsylvania would have disclosed the specific identity of each aircraft, and those parts did not "vaporize" as some Pentagon spokespersons have reported.
The parts may have since "vaporized" but not during the reported crashes. The well-known "Black Boxes" were reported to have been found, but were immediately confiscated and seem to have since, disappeared."
I wouldn't mind the padded cell as long as we don't have to wear straight jackets or suffer any shock treatments. I've enjoyed it also ~Oculus~. Your probably a very nice and decent person, as would be Willo and Jake and everyone else here.
Some of you are sort of stupid though, or are adversely effected by the gravitional pull of our moon due to excess water on the brain.
Kem, I originally posted this on April 18 (2:44 pm), but the comment got stuck "awaiting moderation" for some reason. I'll try again.
I believe you and I have reached an impasse. We might appeal to expert third-parties as a way to break on through to the other side, although I prefer to rely on my own experiences, schooling and research and admire your lack of dependence on or unquestioning deference to "The Experts."
Still, I'm wondering what you think of Col. George Nelson's critique of the official 9/11 investigation (see http:// www . patriotsquestion911 .com/#Nelson ):
Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (retired) – Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority. Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College. 34-year Air Force career. Licensed commercial pilot. Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic.
Excerpt of an essay:
"In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft — and in most cases the precise cause of the accident...
The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view...
With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. …
As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history."
——-
Col. Nelson makes no mention of magnesium fires as a possible reason for why there is a dearth of evidence.
Yep NAM, they should have done at nght, during a BLUE moon and the death toll of innocent people would have been far less.
Speaking of full moons, I see we currently are in that moon phase now, that may help explain the last posts of ~Brian~ and ~Willo~.
It is obvious that some have become angry with ~JAKENEWTON~ on this thread and many have questioned his intelligence. I've previously had disputes on other issues with ~JAKE~ and he has never been rude with me, although I have pulled his chain and insulted him. I don't know ~Jake~ but I have never questioned his intelligence, he's a very smart fella and is reasonable.
I fear a few become angry if anyone argues with their contention, that the buildings were imploded and some even resort to lying in an attempt to discredit any whom they may disagree with. I do not have any hard feelings towards those who wish to believe the conspirarcy theory and am offended if I'm unfairly attacked for my beliefs. BTW, JAKE is correct by stating, many often do not reply to his fair questions or valid points he raised.
Before the CommonDreams overlords decide to limit our viral usurpation of their server real estate, I want to take the opportunity to thank all of you for sharing this padded cell with me. It's been a pleasure.
Unfortuantly, ~SEDEMTRI~ NIST personnel, or the labratory tests conducted, did not factor in the high heats which most asuredly would have been generated by the tons of compressed and hghly flamable burning aircraft metals.
They dismissed that most important element of the fires in the area of the towers central support cores. It would be very easy to prove, that burning aluminum and or magnesium for an hour or more which is near structural steel, the steel will lose it's tensile strength and or become molten due to temperatures papproaching the 4,000 degree F level.
Except for ~Namaste~, all debating this issue, have either ignored that very important aspect of the fires, or have brushed it off with insulting remarks. That is likely do to the fact it hinders the ones opinions of those who wish to believe explosives are the only answer.