Dubious Design
What is called "creationism" is the belief that in six days the Judeo-Christian god created the universe and all the earthly species including humans in finished form much as they exist today. For centuries this view prevailed throughout the western world. Even after evolutionary science had emerged in the latter half of the nineteenth century, the scenario sketched in Genesis remained the only one acceptable for most of Christendom. Not until the early twentieth century did Darwinian science enjoy a fully receptive hearing in the scientific and academic communities of the United States.
But today, rather than riding triumphant, evolutionary science seems to be barely hanging on in the arena of public opinion. A 2007 Gallup poll reported that only 49 percent of the US public accepted evolution and 48 percent did not. Another survey found 42 percent of Americans held strict creationist views. And various school districts throughout the country have experienced furious dust-ups over the teaching of evolution.
Of late there has emerged a more refined offshoot of creationism called intelligent design (ID). It argues that living organisms are so irreducibly complex they could not have evolved haphazardly over the eons from more primitive forms but were precisely created in one fell swoop by a higher intelligence.
In their assault on evolution the creationists and ID protagonists summon an urgent refrain. To quote from a statement by an anti-Darwinian school board in Dover, Pennsylvania: "Darwin's Theory is [just] a theory. . . . The Theory is not a fact. Gaps exist in the Theory for which there is no evidence. . . . Intelligent Design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin's view. . . . Students are encouraged to keep an open mind."
Critics of evolution almost have a point. There certainly are "gaps" in an evolutionary theory that is neither fixed nor final. But the same holds true of all scientific theories, be it nutritional science, meteorology, astronomy, biology, geology, or physics. Science frequently produces theories that contain unanswered questions and invite varying interpretations.
Truth be told, there are no fixed and final scientific laws. Many scientists do not even like the term scientific laws, preferring to speak of "scientific theories." For it is in the nature of science--when practiced at its best--to keep everything accessible to further investigation and conceptualization. Seemingly triumphant scientific breakthroughs can open up additional areas of inquiry that lead to still more unanswered questions.
Be this as it may, an established body of science is not something to be dismissed out of hand just because it harbors unanswered questions. That a scientific theory is incomplete does not give us license to ignore all the evidence it has accumulated. The data provided by paleontology, geology, zoology, entomology, molecular biology, and other fields make a strong case for evolution and have yet to be explained away by the intelligent designers.
Scientists have been devising new ways of charting how life develops from simple to more complex forms, which is the essence of evolutionary theory. By reconstructing ancient genetic materials from long-extinct animals, they have been able to show how evolution created a new and more complicated component of molecular structure from existing parts.
By its very nature, life depends on adaptability. This means that change, complexity, and development are inevitable components of the natural world. Not all organisms reproduce with uniform success. Reproductive capacity arises directly from how well creatures (including human ones) are able to compete for resources, both against other species and against other members of the same species---and against problems presented by the natural elements themselves.
Not only competition but a highly evolved cooperation may advantage various species. Given this infinitude of interactive forces, it would seem improbable for evolution not to be happening.
Indeed evolution continues before our very eyes as demonstrated by the recently discovered ways that viruses and other microbes acquire new traits, adapt to new habitats, and move toward becoming new species in a matter of days. New pathogens such as SARS, HIV, and more virulent tuberculosis bacilli continue to evolve. Unfortunately it is their evolutionary capacity that is likely to make these microbes resistant to antibiotic drugs. Evolutionary theory explains their dramatic adaptability; the Bible does not, nor do the intelligent designers.
There is something else to be said about scientific theory. When intelligent designers insist that evolution is a theory and not a fact, they are juxtaposing theory and fact as two mutually exclusive and competitive concepts. This is a view commonly held by laypersons who know nothing about science, who assume that there are "hard facts" on the one hand, and airy theories facilely spun out of one's head on the other.
So we are admonished to stop "theorizing," stop devising abstract speculations that by definition are more fanciful than factual. Sometimes "theory" is even made to stand for something that is presumed by many to be ipso facto false, as in "conspiracy theory."
In both the natural and social sciences, however, theory is something more than mere speculation. Theory is the generalizable distillation of empirical investigation, the payoff that comes from gathering and connecting a heap of pertinent facts. It takes facts to build a scientific theory but it takes a theory to organize and make sense of the facts.
Theories are valued for their explanatory power. A developed and confirmed theory is what science aims for. It is the gold standard of scientific inquiry. The theory of gravity and the theory of relativity are not lacking in facts just because they are theories. To dismiss something as just a theory and not a factual science does not make sense from a scientific point of view. Theory is not all that "soft" and, for that matter, facts are sometimes not all that "hard" or firmly fixed.
Since scientific theories in all fields contain some unanswered questions, why is evolution singled out by the intelligent designers as the one gap-ridden speculative theory? The answer is glaringly evident: evolution is in direct collision with Genesis. If evolution is true, then the Bible's description of how God fashioned the world in six days and created humans in their present form seems much the fairy tale. And if Genesis is a fairy tale, then of what validity is the remainder of the divinely dictated tome that serves as the unerring fundament of Judaic-Christian belief?
The response offered by the scientific defenders of evolution is predictable and somewhat incomplete: "We have no way of testing and demonstrating the truth or falsity of non-natural spirit forces that are presumed to be acting in nature." It would be nice if someday someone would add, "and neither do the intelligent designers." That is the real problem. Of course, scientists cannot move outside their fundamental paradigm and demonstrate divine causation, but neither can the designing creationists.
This is a crucial point because the burden of proof for intelligent design is on the designers. Where is their field work, their laboratory experiments, their observational reports and accumulated evidence measuring the effects of ID vectors on various natural forces and entities, all the things we would expect from a scientific inquiry interested in "hard facts"?
This is the problem with teaching ID: what would you actually teach? How could you judge the reliability of what you teach? How do we determine what is or isn't evidentiary if one can postulate a priori an unseen supreme designer lurking behind everything? In the two decades since ID has emerged, it has generated no important experiments or insights into biology, and looks less and less like a science and increasingly like a theological polemic.
Advocates of ID seem untroubled by their own scientific illiteracy. One of them asserts that there is no evidence of a protracted evolution because "all the vertebrate groups, from fish to mammals appear [in the fossil record] at one time." Not true, George Monbiot responds; the first fish fossils and the first mammal fossils are separated from each other by some 300 million years.
ID proponents make much of the human eye. Given the intricacy and delicate precision that enables it to perform its marvelous function, and "the purposeful arrangement of parts," the eye could never have developed from hit-and-miss mutation and natural selection, the argument goes. If evolution were true, there would be fossils of particular animals without vision and others with varying degrees of eye development strung out across the ages, but "such fossils do not exist," the intelligent designers maintain. But such fossils do exist, Monbiot reminds us; the fossil record does indeed stretch across the ages with countless eyes "in all stages of development."
As for the creationists, it is not that they have questions about particular aspects of evolution, as might we all. Rather they deny that it ever happened. They believe the book of Genesis is literally true. Possessed of the absolute truth as they see it, they are not prone to tolerate alternative perspectives. They are not interested in a pluralism of views. They do not want to supplement evolutionary theory but to replace it. , even as they call for more tolerance in secular schools and increasingly greater exposure for their own "explanation."
Its proponents insist that ID is not religiously anchored; it requires neither miracles nor a creator. They avoid mention of the six-day jiffy creation and other biblical narratives. But if ID is not supernatural, then how does it act as a first and perfect universalistic template for all this imperfect unfinished world? How can it create the natural world in all its wondrous and presumably irreducible complexity if it is itself merely a component of that complexity? Here is a designer that is the source of all creation's form and content but which itself cannot be subjected to any kind of scientific study, a designer that supposedly is fixed in nature yet transcends ordinary materiality.
The designers centered at the Discovery Institute, a conservative think tank in Seattle, revealed their religiously motivated hand in their now infamous and strikingly candid, in-house document, "The Wedge Strategy," written in 1999 and leaked to the public some time later. According to "The Wedge Strategy," the ultimate goal of intelligent design is "nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies" replacing scientific materialism "with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God."
The authors of this document blame evolutionary theory and materialistic science for most of the world's evils. They write, "Thinking they could engineer the perfect society through the application of scientific knowledge, materialist reformers advocated coercive government programs that falsely promised to create heaven on earth." In sum, ID is not a field of study; it is a refined fundamentalist preachment in service to a reactionary political agenda.
The creationists and ID designers appear to be championing free speech and diversity of ideas when they urge that students be taught more than just Darwinism. In fact they themselves are not interested in a pluralism of views. They do not favor the teaching of every theory of creation.
There are as many stories of how the world began and how it is held together as there are tribal mythologies and tales. The fundamentalist Jesus worshippers are concerned only about the Genesis narrative, the one they want accorded exclusive standing in the schools.
Thus in 1999, creationists on the Kansas state board of education removed nearly all references to evolution from the curriculum. Such references were restored only after Kansas voters ousted the creationist bloc in 2001. In short, the creationists do not want to supplement evolutionary theory but to replace it, which---as demonstrated in Kansas---is exactly what they do when afforded the opportunity.
Michael Parenti's lastest books are Contrary Notions: The Michael Parenti Reader (2007), Democracy for the Few, 8thThe Culture Struggle (2006). The above is adapted from his forthcoming book God and His Demons. For further information, visit www.michaelparenti.org
© 2008 Michael Parenti
Twitter
StumbleUpon
Facebook
Delicious
Digg
Newsvine
Google
Yahoo
Technorati
123 Comments so far
Show All[ Ockham, William of (ok'-um)
English Scholar
Born: Ockham (?), Surry, about 1280
Died: Munich, Germany, 1349
William of Ockham (called the "Invincible Doctor") joined the Franciscan Order, studied at Oxford, and lectured there from 1315 to 1319. He was among the last of the medieval scholars and led the battle against the views of Thomas Aquinas. Ockham held that much of theology was a matter of faith, not amenable to reason. For this and, even more so, because he was an opponent of papal supremacy, he was tried for heresy in 1324 by Pope John XXII. He fled and was protected by the Holy Roman Emperor Louis IV, who as a strong political opponent of the Pope automatically favored any anti-papal scholar. After Louis' death, Ockham cautiously made his peace with the Church.
Ockham battled against the universals that had been introduced by Plato, the notion that the only true realities were the ideal objects of which the earthly objects sensible to perception were only imperfect copies. These ideals Ockham considered abstractions, mere names (hence the expression "nominalism" for his philosophy,) and held that only the objects perceived were real.
Since the universalists kept adding more and more items to their ideals in order to make their theories work, Ockham laid down the rule that: "Entities should not needlessly be multiplied." This has been interpreted in modern times to mean that of two theories equally fitting all observed facts, that theory requiring the fewer or simpler assumptions is to be accepted as more nearly valid. The rule, now called "Ockhams razor," is of vital importance in the philosophy of science. ]
- entry #99 in Isaac Asimov's "Biographical Encyclopedia Of Science And Technology" revised edition, 1972. Many here could no doubt add more bio, but many here might not be familiar with the "Invincible Doctor."
>> All I have to add to this thread is that everyone should read
>> Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason."
I've read Kant. I found it to be very tough sledding and have to admit that I didn't really understand all of his arguments. I do think that his use of 'pure' reason was a bit of a straw-man. I don't believe anyone uses pure reason in any of their thought processes, nor do they use pure emotion, or pure anything. Dichotomous thinking bedevils our discussions, though, because we have this terrible tendency to want to reify everything as 'either/or.' I find myself doing this -- and I believe it's something to guard against.
>>"Thinking they could engineer the perfect society through the >>application of scientific knowledge, materialist reformers advocated >>coercive government programs that falsely promised to create heaven >>on earth."
Personally, I don't think it's possible to engineer society using any ideology. Societies are complex, emergent phenomena, perhaps the most complex system we encounter as humans. Societies can be influenced, but never controlled. I believe that this is why communism failed -- it tried to control that which cannot be controlled. It's also why I am leery about any top-down ideological system, whether it be socialist, authoritarian, or whatever. It seems to me that workable societies are those that balance the need for laws and structure imposed from above with freedom of action by all members of the society, with the degree of that freedom determined by the potential for actions to harm others. Unfortunately, we in the US have steered a little too far toward laissez faire. In my opinion, this should be corrected, but nor overcorrected by imposition of too much socialism. We should aspire to be Norway, or maybe Canada.
The heart of the matter is here:
"Thinking they could engineer the perfect society through the application of scientific knowledge, materialist reformers advocated coercive government programs that falsely promised to create heaven on earth."
Ahh! Fundamantalists and "libertarians" together at last!
First and foremost, protestant fundamentalism is a movement to justify the brutalities of capitalism - which for some reason few scientific thinkers support - Einstein, Oppenheimer, B. Russell - all socialists. (I say "protestant" because modern-era Catholics have no probelem with scientific inquiry.
Never had I seen my right-wing family members more angry than when I tried to explain the Catholic worker principle of building a society wher it is "easy to be good". They regarded such a thing as the height of evil!
It is the job of (the second-time) Jesus, and only Jesus to beat those swords into plowshares! Until then all good christians must pursue their greedy self interest using violence as needed.
lizard: I've re read the posts and I am shocked. I thought CD was progressive but when it comes to religion and spirituality this is clearly not so. Clearly Americans are deeply into religion and unable to escape it. The level of understanding is very low, shameful even. This is a very emotional and sentimental society and much of what passes for an argument in these posts is actually emotional reasoning, a cognitive error. People are very much in touch with their emotions, less so with thought. I am usually very impressed by CD posters. This thread has shown their limits. Too bad. We still have a long way to go. See, Americans evolve so slowly!
Aah lizard! your post is emotional and sentimental. Feeling shameful for the actions of others can be a form of condescension.
On another note, balancing the rational and the emotional is a hard act, even for people who are aware of the challenge. Keep faith in the human spirit :-).
>> hybridoma2001: All I have to add to this thread is that everyone should read Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason."
I could not agree more. And, while I do not agree with everything Kant says... It does one good to follow his thinking. People need to learn how to think.
JohnnyMo: I read it again as you suggested. If accident means only a random happening, then you have added a layer of obfuscation by defining one term with another undefined term. You removed the difficulty one step.
I asked for a definition, not just an equation, and one that makes your argument reasonable. Your 'if...then' sequences don't follow. You have assertions of class inclusion without a syllogism.
"In sum, ID is not a field of study; it is a refined fundamentalist preachment in service to a reactionary political agenda."--Michael Parenti
This simple quote from Parenti's great essay is the perfect definition of intelligent design. Actually, I prefer the term, "unintelligent design" when referring to creationism, because it is actually an assault on, and a contradiction of, reason and intelligence. Clearly, those who give such nonsense credence are turning reality on its head. This country has entered into some sort of Seinfeldian bizarro world where the moon is now jumping over the cow. Reason takes a backseat to superstition and "tradition." It's amazing to me that in the year 2008 this is even considered an issue worthy of discussion.
The power of reactionary, manipulative propaganda is evinced by the growing number of regressive "faithful," who only serve to solidify the reactionary right and its increasing number of cons and cheats who 'capitalize'(exploit)on their willful ignorance. Why is this happening? Well, it's clearly part of a 30-year-old, neoconservative/neoliberal, planned 'design,' one that's been recycled throughout history and always ends tragically.
For a detailed explanation I highly recommend two books by Susan Jacoby: "Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism" and her most recent book, "The Age of American Unreason." In addition, encourage everyone to read Howard Zinn's, "A Peoples History of the United States," which should be mandatory reading in every public school. Finally, I recommend everyone read Shirley Jackson's famous short story, "The Lottery," in which she illustrates perfectly the danger of forsaking reason and intelligence to preserve archaic, conservative traditions, customs, and superstitions. It's truly the scariest story I've ever read.
All I have to add to this thread is that everyone should read Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason."
It's difficult reading for most folk. But if both sides of this argument would read this timeless work, they would see this whole argument for what it is. Intelligent Design should be taught - but not as a science. It should be taught under the subjects involving Metaphysics.
Hello, Lizard -- pleasure to meet you, too, and thanks for the clarification. I do sometimes think of myself as a member of the Nation of Science. I love the fact that it is highly international. It's been my privelege to travel to and work with scientists on every continent. I have been extremely lucky.
Regarding whether I'm an atheist or not, you raise a good point. My first response is to invoke my constitutionally protected right to be wishy-washy. But actually, I see my agnosticism as the most intellectually honest answer I can give to the "God question." I really don't know if there is or there isn't. My suspicion is that there isn't a god in any form. I go about my daily life as if there was no God (I practice no religion) so I guess you could say I am a functional atheist, but strictly speaking I am an agnostic. If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to commit, I would choose atheism. But, I would only do so because of the imminent threat of having my brains blown out.
I realize that for those who have made definite commitments one way or the other, this is a very unsatisfactory answer. I also acknowledge that reading Dawkins or Sam Harris can be very persuasive, but I remain where I am with respect to God. I don't know if the problem can every really be resolved scientifically and frankly I don't think about it that much.
ULLERN: Very interesting posting!
I've re read the posts and I am shocked. I thought CD was progressive but when it comes to religion and spirituality this is clearly not so. Clearly Americans are deeply into religion and unable to escape it. The level of understanding is very low, shameful even. This is a very emotional and sentimental society and much of what passes for an argument in these posts is actually emotional reasoning, a cognitive error. People are very much in touch with their emotions, less so with thought. I am usually very impressed by CD posters. This thread has shown their limits. Too bad. We still have a long way to go. See, Americans evolve so slowly!
dgoodin: Given Occam's razor and Karl Poppers theorem, don't you have enough to consider yourself an atheist? Is there not evidence do dismantle the various presentations of God one by one? Is it not true that when you get to the last forms in the evolution of the god concept, the ones easiest to defend, the concept of god is reduced to one that really means nothing?
It appears your agnosticism is a form of respect and that's kind of cool. I am not as nice.
JohnnyMo: Be careful when you say you understand evolution. There are many levels of understanding for many things including evolution. You are not understanding evolution beyond a very superficial level.
dgoodin: Pleasure to meet you. American Scientists are not "Americans", they are some Americans. These are my people. We are the same everywhere in the world. We may have political disagreements, but in scientific areas the process of discussion is the same. Americans are evolving slowly. Half haven't reached the level of understanding of evolution. They are still far from abandoning religion, accepting homosexuality, understanding how bad war is, giving up on racism, or imposing their views on others by laws or other force. There is little social cohesion except in going to war or sports. This is what I meant.
faith, reason, skepticism: these are our basic choices in life; the rest is window dressing. what distinguishes the faith freaks from the rest of us is that they want everyone else to join their crowd and will use any available duress to pursue this desire.
When I was a kid I used to say that the next evolution of man would be an evolution of mind. I apparently will not be making that jump, judging by my propensity to initiate verbal attacks rather than calm explanations. Daniel David if you're still visiting this thread I apologize for the tone of my first post. Not for the opinions expressed, but the manner that I expressed them.
I should probably print out my first post and tape it to my monitor to remind myself of the manner in which not to proceed. While I was reading Parenti's piece I was imagining this debate that has evolved, and lo and behold the first post to appear contained some very tired and threadbare criticisms of evolution. Nothing personal, it wouldn't have mattered who said it, obviously I would have reacted badly in any case.
Outside the USA the claims for "Intelligent Design" at best seem outlandish. But the "outland" in this case is the USA.
Michael Parenti as per usual supplies good, intelligent and definitive words on the case against the rather unintelligent "Intelligent Design"-promotion.
Referring to God – with unspecified omnipotent qualities except for the specific power to shut up debates – as a final argument, is a short-circuiting of our human ability to think for ourselves and take responsibility for our actions and their consequenses. Yet in exactly that ability to reason lies the pinnacle of the divine in us. By that infinite and unencompassable divinity we are co-creators of all the divine that we perceive and name – including «god».
God - whatever that amounts to - cannot be taken prisoner and used as vicarious authority or cover to promote some limited perception of what the divine is or should be.
The pretext of some to know the divine better than others has been used in the service of power in our Christian culture since at least 325 C.E. That's when the Roman Emperor Constantines created the first uniform Christian doctrine at the Church-council of Nicea. This ploy to harass others into subjugation has been fought back through hard and often physical fighting over the half of a millennium now.
The fight-back first gained real momentum with Martin Luther's Reformation from 1517. That means it took reason some 1200 years (!) to regain a foothold against raw power. The gains for the view that divinity resides equally in all of us (though some may choose to delve deeper into it than others) should not be given up easily. The short-cuts in thinking presented and represented by "Intelligent Design" are throw-backs in this respect.
The theory of «Intelligent design» is of absolutely dubious design.
No fucking pasaran!
>> Evolution has held up pretty well in this respect. Does ID predict anything?
So far, it hasn't. Hence the problem with considering it science.
>> I am always wary of the common examples of microbial 'evolution' because we may be observing only natural or, more likely, unnatural selection (which we know occurs) and this is only part of evolution.
Sure, but it's the key part! Also, natural in this context means 'not divine'. Selection driven by human activity (e.g. microbe evolution in response to antibiotics) still falls under the definition of natural selection.
Good scientific theories facilitate predictions that can either strengthen or destroy the theory. Evolution has held up pretty well in this respect. Does ID predict anything?
Anyone who wants to destroy the theory of evolution (and win a nobel prize into the bargain) has the right to do so by employing sound, unalloyed and convincing scientific argument.
Mr Parenti, I am always wary of the common examples of microbial 'evolution' because we may be observing only natural or, more likely, unnatural selection (which we know occurs) and this is only part of evolution. I don't know whether the experiment to select a unique strain of microbe, bombard it with radiation and observe mutated offspring that are viable and exhibit a small but significant variation from the parent has ever been carried out.
>> Now, as to your asking for some "real evidence of God," let me say that I have met Him. I mean this in a real, albeit spiritual, sense. However, this will hardly be convincing for you as you have never met me.
For all you know, I might not exist.
Yes, but I'm willing to take you on faith :). I can't say the same for God, because you don't seem to be claiming that you created the universe but you do seem to be claiming that God did. As an agnostic, I don not believe that I cannot know. I do believe that I can't know anything in a meaningful way without some sort of evidence. God is one of several hypotheses that can be advanced to explain how things came to be. Unfortunately, no one can provide any evidence for God, not does it seem possible that the hypothesis can even be tested. You claim to have met God, and I'll concede that you have had an experience that you believe supports this claim. I will not attempt to tell you that you're wrong. I will tell you that I have not met God, although I would love to because if there is a God and that God is truly the creator of the universe, I would have so many questions to ask. However, I simply do not believe that this is the case.
Unfortunately, I think we're at an impasse here. But it was a pleasure to 'talk'.
Now, as to your asking for some "real evidence of God," let me say that I have met Him. I mean this in a real, albeit spiritual, sense. However, this will hardly be convincing for you as you have never met me.
I dislike posting on tangents on a topic specific thread. However, here goes... can you provide evidence that you actually met one entity and that there isn't the case where there exist 7 different beings simply wearing the same persona when interacting with you, or that you are not conjuring up something/someone to talk? You get my drift...
>> dgoodin: No! These are not random!
Yes, they are. In any atheistic system they must be.
Er, this does not even get past the "Universe = God" construct even granting the use of a strange notion of random.
Random is simply the absence of any discernible pattern. The presence of patterns only requires a few initial properties/constraints and does not entail the presence of an intelligent agent making frequent conscious choices.
dgoodin,
Thanks for your thoughts. I do not think that in an atheistic system everything is random. I have argued that in an atheistic system that the origins of everything that exists must be accidental (deriving from randomness). After those origins, there is obviously much that follows rules and systems. Thus scientific inquiry that actually works... up to a point.
Agnosticism is essentially undiscussable as it simply says, "I don't know... and I cannot know." There is little to be said following that.
I think that rational thought actually exists and has its origins in the divine mind. I think that the existence of human thought is clear evidence for an intellegent creator. And such a creator needs no origin. The Bible actually answers that question by saying that God always has been. He is. This bothers some people and to others sounds like a cop out. But, I think an excellent logical case can be made against an infinite regression of causes... in which case a first cause is a logical neccessity. I think God is that uncaused first cause.
Now, as to your asking for some "real evidence of God," let me say that I have met Him. I mean this in a real, albeit spiritual, sense. However, this will hardly be convincing for you as you have never met me.
For all you know, I might not exist.
>> Unless, of course, the whole system was designed by someone…
You asked me a challenging question, one that I honestly can't answer, so here's one for you. If your world view requires all things to have a designer, where did God come from and can you PROVE it by objective observation?
We are out of luck here. Assuming the creator deity is outside of this universe, either one ends up with an infinite chain of deities or we can dogmatically assert a single direct deity who "always existed." In the latter context, we can operationally assert any attribute of the deity to the universe itself at which point the deity would in effect "disappear."
This is something like ending up with a 0, trying to assert 1, which comes about trying to deny infinity :D. Gee, isn't the "god problem" fun?
Those posting here saying that evolutionary theory has "lots of holes" haven't been reading the article, or somehow still don't understand the nature of scientific inquiry that Parenti outlined. Parenti was exceptionally clear that not all "facts" turn out to be solid, even as theories continue to gain support - not a contradiction. I think this is a big point of confusion. If the theory proves wrong, it's because the "facts" are wrong too. However, that's not been the trend for evolutionary theory, which is perhaps the most confirmed theory in scientific history.
Evolutionary theory is supported by many different branches of science, even though those branches of science are not concerned with evolution per se. So, embryology studies show indications of an evolutionary process happening, even though those studies were not conducted to prove evolution.
>> Yes, they are. In any atheistic system they must be
Why? We see all types of emergent phenomena in complex, adaptive systems. Heck, I work with one of these systems on a daily basis and I have had no reason yet to resort to any special conditions involving creation.
>> The fact that the earth is where it is is the result of accidental events. Unless, of course, you appeal to some kind of determinism that amounts to God getting in by the back door.
Again, you are using a false dichotomy argument. In essence, you are saying either everything is random or there must be a creator. Why? Is it not possible that everything we see around us is the result of physical laws that emerged out of complex systems dynamics? You say that I've opened the back door to a sort of deistic view of God, but the fact is that I haven't ever rejected teh God hypothesis. But, the fact is there is precious little evidence to support this hypothesis (there is none, in fact).
>>How can you say that these processes and rules are not the result of randomness? Why the existing physical laws and not others? On what logical basis?
I don't know. But that's the difference between science and non-science. As a scientist, I am required to admit what I don't know, then go LOOK for the answer. This is what makes my job so much fun. As far as understanding where the laws of nature come from, complex systems theories has provided some hints of answers, but 'assumption of God theory' (to coin a term) has provided nothing. It is untestable, whereas CST can generate testable hypotheses. What you are arguing for is essentially the "God of the gaps" idea. The problem with this argument is; what happens when the gaps are filled? Does God suddenly get smaller. until there is nothing left to do?
>> Unless, of course, the whole system was designed by someone…
You asked me a challenging question, one that I honestly can't answer, so here's one for you. If your world view requires all things to have a designer, where did God come from and can you PROVE it by objective observation?
Personally, I'm strictly speaking an agnostic, but I am very skeptical of the existance of God. If someone can provide me real evidence of God, then I'll believe, but until then, no.
>> Hope all goes well on the taxes… The IRS 1040, by the way, is indeed the result of inexplicable randomness taking place over the past 100 years. I think one can say that there is little intellegent design in any of it
You can say that again. Right now, I can't find my 1099 form.
>> dgoodin: No! These are not random!
Yes, they are. In any atheistic system they must be. The fact that the earth is where it is is the result of accidental events. Unless, of course, you appeal to some kind of determinism that amounts to God getting in by the back door.
The only reason that the composition and location of the earth with all of its environment seems to you to be not quiter random is because you approach it as a fait accompli.
Furthermore, you insistance that the processes are not the result of random accidents is an interesting one... and hardly provable. Without a God, where do these processes and laws come from? What about mathematics itself? How can you say that these processes and rules are not the result of randomness? Why the existing physical laws and not others? On what logical basis?
Unless, of course, the whole system was designed by someone...
Hope all goes well on the taxes... The IRS 1040, by the way, is indeed the result of inexplicable randomness taking place over the past 100 years. I think one can say that there is little intellegent design in any of it.
This is an interesting thread, with posts that indicate both the misconceptions people commonly associate with evolution, and objections to the theory from people who feel that their notion of deity is slipping away.
Some such as Lizard will likely get the following position. From a methodological perspective, evolution is compatible with the concept of an "Intelligent Designer," and is in fact an efficient way to create a variety of distinct types of organisms. In this context, opposition to evolution stems from people applying/using a model of engineering that does not map well to the process of evolution. The underlying fight is between two classes of competing models that seek to explain the observed variety of life.
The philosophical fight is between views rooted in "deterministic absolutes" versus ones that promote "emergent dynamics."
"I see your point. However, what you are missing is that all of the holes have been set up by accidental (random) events… a planet orbiting the sun at about 93 million miles, covered with water and plenty of carbon, etc."
No! These are not random! Earth-sun distance is determined by the interplay of gravity and centripetal acceleration of the accretion disk that formed the planets, acting on the accumulating masses that resulted from numerous collisions within the disk. The location and occurrence of the collisions could be considered random, but the results of process are not. As for the chemical composition of the earth, again, not random. In fact, the earth's atmosphere screams negative entropy, as evidenced by the fact that the mixture of gasses is far out of equilibrium. The force that maintains this disequilibrium is, of course, life -- the ultimate non-random process. We don't know how life begins (although there are a few people coming tantializingly close...) but we cannot assume that just because we don't know something it is either random, or designed. This type of assumption is not science.
And I gotta disagree about America not accepting change. America is all about change, which is one of the things I like about the place despite its many, many flaws. Right now, at this fleeting moment in our history, we have a political establishment that wants to 'freeze' certain bad ideas into place (anti-science being just one of them). This is one of the reasons why I engage in conversations like this on a saturday afternoon when I'd rather be biking, because it is imperative that we retain the American trend toward questioning, creating innovation, and evolution. My hope is we get back to that at some point. I am guardedly optimistic.
LaMarck -- there's a name from the scrap heap of history. Did you know that Darwin's grandfather developed a theory of evolution before Charles was even born that resembled Lamarck's ideas? Biology in the old Soviet Union was Lamarckian, because Lamarck's ideas (expressed by some plant breeder named Lysenko) were more politically palatable to the Marxist communists, whereas Darwin's ideas were considered too capitalist and elitist. This really hurt the development of life sciences in the old Soviet Union. Soviet physics, chemistry, and mathematics were world class, but their life sciences always lagged behind and in some ways still do. This is a good object lesson for those who want to impose nonsensical science by political fiat. Actions have consequences.
Interesting conversation, but I'm not making much progress on my taxes!
Flat-earth patriarchal society in a technological world. A society circumscribed by fixed granular absolute models. Even my parents held a fixed/final creation view of life. In that model, nothing changes, nothing should be allowed to change, any change is by definition, evil, except for air conditioning, and refrigerators et al. Nothing socially, or economically or religiously is ever to be allowed to change, that is Evil. Ask the FBI.
America has a fatal case of cognitive dissonance. Not accepting a changing evolving universe, let alone planet, let alone evolving humans, a universe in which our local neighborhood has 400 billion stars and our local neighborhood is only one of 40 billion galaxies, that universe makes us look like very small tribal brutals.
Trouble with Darwin? Wait til they find out that Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, Chevalier de Lamarck, was right. Ooooppps. Here come the Inquisitors. I'm outta here.
Good natter. 90+ comments. Good stuff.
Peace.
dgoodin,
I see your point. However, what you are missing is that all of the holes have been set up by accidental (random) events... a planet orbiting the sun at about 93 million miles, covered with water and plenty of carbon, etc.
And, it is true that critical mutations are barely understood, if at all. Maybe we use "randomness" to explain it because we do not understand. That is to no one's intellectual advantage.
You wrote, "And as far as I know, I'm the only one that thinks my thoughts."
Are you sure it is you that is thinking them?
BTW, the first sentence should read "...drop an object..." (not crop).
JohnnyMo,
Let's consider an example: suppose you had a mechanism that would randomly crop an object with a specific shape (sphere, square, triangle, etc.) into a sink. Further suppose that this sink had a hole in the bottom of it that was exactly circular in shape. You could randomly drop any shape object into the sink, but only the spherical objects would pass through the hole. This would be an example of a process that contains a random element, but not a random outcome, because only spheres are 'selected' by the hole in the sink. Of course, in evolution, the system is not static. The shape of the hole might change, or some other variation might be introduced. However, I hope you see my point.
Regarding the comment about critical mutations "must" be random. I'm not sure what you mean. New species arise as modifications of old ones, and frankly the exact process is not entirely understood.
And as far as I know, I'm the only one that thinks my thoughts. However, if there is someone out there with my thoughts, all I can say is I apologize, and please let me explain a few things...
:-)
dgoodin,
I understand evolutionary thought quite well, and I disagree with you. It is, on the whole a random process. When it comes to evolutionary biology, though not all mutations are entirely random, the critical ones (that lead to new species) must be.
Is something not a random process if part of it is not random? I don't know that you can say that. But it is quite beside the point. If your own thought is the result of random events, you cannot claim that your thoughts are any more reliable than anyone else's thoughts resulting from random events.
If you wish to resort to natural selection as the measure of reliability, then we will just have to wait to see who lasts longer... people thinking your thoughts or people thinking mine. At this point, no clear judgment can be made... according to natural selection.
Daniel David I think you are distorting historical fact. Most humans who have devoted themselves to scientific inquiry never set out to disprove religious teachings, and this included Darwin. It takes all kinds, and the militant atheists do as much damage to scientific inquiry as do the young-earthers. The battles going on in the U.S. today (over evolution)have all been instigated by religionists and not the scientific community. To expect the scientific community to not respond is ludicrous.
I'm not a militant ahteist. As much as I would like to come to this forum every time an article like this appears and shout THERE IS NO GOD, I can not, because I simply don't know. There is no difinative proof either way for the existance of a supreme being. If someone held a gun to my head and told me that they would not pull the trigger so long as I got off the fence of my determined agnosticism and took a side, I'd have to say "no, I do not believe." The fact would remain that I said that only to keep from having my brains blown out.
I agree with the posters that have said that all of this should be presented in our public schools. Evolution in science classes, creationism in comparative philosophy classes along with atheism, and every other "ism" that has moved humanity to action over the millenia.
This planet is approximately 4.6 billion years old, and it is very difficult for the human mind to wrap itself around such an immense span of time. There are indeed large discontinuities in the rock record - sediment beds in direct physical contact but separated in time (as discovered through radiometric dating) by millions of years. What was removed by wind and water over millions of years is indeed lost to us, and constitutes a defacto "gap" and we may never know what fossil remains might have been contained there.
Not an atheist and not a scientist either, but when science proves that we (humans) share much of our DNA with every other living organism on this planet that tells me something. As does the immense march of time (proven fact) necessary to allow the diversification to complex species from simple organisms. Is this an act of faith? Possibly, but if the choice is between a literal interpretaion of cobbled together ancient mythology and a method of inquiry that has a darn good record of weeding out errors and misconceptions, I'll choose the latter every time.
Imagine if, when Newton worked out the simple inverse square relationship that explained the motions of the planets, because he could not say what the essence of gravity was, he instead threw all of his work into the fires of his alchemical pursuits.
I agree that we should not be fighting over this in our schools, but the fight is being instigated by religionists, and not science. The fact is that religionists should thank science for removing true faith from insupportable literal interpretations of primative creation myths. That is what I meant by picking fights they can't possibly win.
Evolution is not a random process. This one of the most common misconceptions about it. In the Darwinian evolutionary scheme, variations occurring due to mutations (which can be random) are selected or not selected based on their fitness relative to their ecological niche. Mutations are random, fitness is not.
And yes, the burden of proof is on the IDers, because they claim what they are doing is science! I have no problem with the ideas of spirit or mysticism (although I don't believe in either one) just as long as it's understood that they belong in a different realm of knowledge that does science.
Gorse,
I did define it in the post. Read.
Johnny Mo: I can't think of a definition of 'accident' that would make your argument reasonable. Could you provide that for us? Thanks
Lizard said:
"When it comes to science Americans are hopeless. What they excel at is sentimentality and religiosity. Americans evolve very slowly."
whoa, that's a very broad and sweeping statement. I'm an American and I do science for a living. I work with many other Americans the same (along with a variety of non-Americans including Canadians, Irish, English, Paraguayans, Brazilians, Argentinians, Nepalese, Venezuelans, Hungarians, Bengalis, and Texans, and that's just in my own research group). Americans have won over half of all Nobel prizes since WWII. No, Americans do just fine with science. I do agree, though, that science gets very poor treatment from the popular media and entertainment in the US, and I think this contributes to the general lack on interest and knowledge in the general public. It's so rare to see a movie or read a popular book where science is preferred to mysticism. It's more common to see the opposite. Even popular stories like Lord of The Rings and Star Wars contain a somewhat anti-scientific message. We need more films like Contact, where science is depicted as a passionate, uplifting, courageous, and fun endeavor.
BTW, you Texans know that I'm kidding, right?
The principal problem with atheistic evolutionary theory is a philosophical/logical/epistemological one. It is unfortunate that students are not forced to think about it.
Many theologians and philosophers have presented it. It is the question of the existence of rational thought.
If this universe is the result of a series of cosmic accidents (the word not used in a perjorative way, but simply to mean one event randomly occurring among an assortment of possible events), life itself is the result of a series of accidents. If life is the result of accidents, then human beings are essentially an accidental occurrence. If we are the result of accidents, then our brains are as well. If my brain is the result of an infinite regress of accidental processes then every thought that comes out of my brain is as well... including thoughts of evolutionary theory. Therefore the very idea of atheistic evolution, by its own definition, is the result of randomly occurring events, an accident. Why should I believe that over any other idea?
"This is a crucial point because the burden of proof for intelligent design is on the designers. Where is their field work, their laboratory experiments, their observational reports and accumulated evidence measuring the effects of ID vectors on various natural forces and entities, all the things we would expect from a scientific inquiry interested in "hard facts"?"
There is no burden of proof upon intelligent design. Those who believe in Spirit as opposed to Science only, should be respected. Creation stories are common to all peoples. Is it not the balance that we seek? I would argue that Spirit is the predominant world view and that Science is a sub-set of Spirit. Spirit guides science. When Science attempts to subvert Spirit life is threatened. Science cannot long exist absent Spirit because Spirit is it's guiding mechanism. Science absent Spirit is death.
Daniel,
Speaking to your post, I do believe that while it may not be nice to mock willful stupidity, it is nonetheless necessary. Being polite, given the nature and absurdity of the enemy, is an invitation to extinction.
Arthritis, head lice, chronic pain: where's the intelligence in the design?
Every scientific theory has questions. Evolution has been supported by evidence from multiple, independent fields like biochemistry, paleontology, anatomy, and embryology. It could easily be falsified if such evidence existed. Intelligent design is simply creationism wearing a more scientific disguise.
Vince Lawrence,
I guess I'll need to respond to you for calling my post a "load of crap". Contrary to what you imagine, I am not seeking to "identify with" ID but "embarrassed" by its name, nor am I trying to justify any religious version of creation.
I am aware that SOME proponents of pure evolution have purposely offended many God worshippers by insisting that random evolution answers everything--therefore trying to intentionally render others' faith to the trash heap of ridicule. And they have played fast and loose with willful papering over of the "gaps" in evidence to do so. This is why many people of "spiritual intuition" (an interesting term someone spoke above) have reacted explosively.
IF school teaching is confined to observed evidence and not extrapolated supposition thrown out to belittle the beliefs of others, THERE IS NO FIGHT. I'm not "for" justifying religious texts. I'm "against" Americans fighting over this---and I believe much of the "fighting" has been directly caused by secularists who have blantantly over-bragged "facts" about evolution that have never been observed. They did it to make fun of believers---just as we see in many of the posts above. That's not nice.
Not knowledge. Not wisdom. Not peace-promoting.
dkm -- well said! Many of the problems associated with the whole evolution/creation debate arise out of a simple lack of understanding of what the word 'theory' means when used in a scientific context.
Poet-- The problem with using your criteria of 'proof' to differentiate between science and philosophy is that we would end up having to teach a lot of other science concepts as philosophy, along with evolution. The fact is, evolution is an extremely well-supported scientific theory, as well as one of the most brilliant intellectual concepts ever conceived. The evidence for it is staggering. In fact, we know far more about how evolution works than we do about how gravity works, but I rarely hear anyone wanting to substitute a theory of 'Intelligent Falling" (to borrow a joke from the Onion).
Why do the intelligent design theory supporters invoke just a single designer? Thousands or millions of designers could just as easily be invoked. This would necessitate the need for ever more designers to create them and an infinite string of increasingly more designers, each more complex than the previous ones, would be needed. And which intelligent designer was perverse enough to make banana slugs, animals which chew off each other's body parts after engaging in sex?
Oh dear, hasn't anyone here ever heard of the Gnostic Gospels or the Nag Hammadi Library. My dears you must learn to read and the present Bible is soooo boorish. Let's see, let me make this really simple for the simple ones here. You see human kind cannot grasp the passage of time. It is beyond some to comprehend the passage of hundreds of years let alone thousands of years.
About 2000 years ago, many sacred texts were buried in the ground to keep them safe from being destroyed by the authorities at that time. Copies of those same texts were above ground moving through history. Only the above ground texts were changed repeatedly to fit the political bent of the times.
The original texts are so much more interesting and pertinent that any bible written today. And, the closer you come to the truth the freer you will be. The truth comes from the inside not the outside. The "control" of the truth (or information) should not be put into the hands of a few authoritarian sources. I do not wish to be made blind by those in charge so they may rule over me and my life. Ignorance is not bliss. I prefer to step into the light.
LOCUST: A short butterfly "story" which serves as the kind of event I term "an omen of agreement." I was the first one to read a eulogy at my step Mom's funeral last July. I mentioned the children's book as I had modeled Libra (my father's sign) after the butterfly. My father joked that I should name the butterflies "Bernice and Abe" (my parents names); so I did so. At the funeral I told the friends and family members gathered there that I had immortalized my parents as these 2 butterflies.
The congregation then went to the cemetery, and as they lowered my step-Mom's coffin into her grave, 2 butterflies began to dance above it. I mentioned it to the rabbi. He asked me what insect I'd chosen for his sign, Pisces; and it was the Praying Mantis, the symbol of all religious faiths. That certainly suited him.
There are always SIGNS along the way with those with eyes to see.
MIKK: You do NOT deserve a response.
CULICOMORPHA: Very enlightened posting. Yours is a tantalizingly open mind.
POET: Love your 7:17 post
WHOLENESS: Thank you.
coercive government programs that falsely promised to create heaven on earth. No government program has ever promised this, Daniel David.
Science is the pursuit of the root cause question: Why? And keeps asking it over and over until something is fully understood.
Religeous philosophy is the adult/slave-master telling everyone, it is this way because I said so, now go back to work doing what I say and making me rich. And go fight my battles if I need you too as well. This is the scarey control part of the anthropology of religion.
As for both politics and religion: give me more anarchy in my politics; for I know what's best for me, and people's motivations will become much more transparent. (That's more of a wish to help those in the bottom 50% of their scholastic endeavors see the BS of those who would lead us for what it is.) and I'd prefer a pass on all religious dogma, ...except pastafarianism. All others are purely surrogates for superstition in every practicioner's mind. And don't they get belligerent when you disagree with them. At least those who would control YOU with their dogma, which is often better for YOU to practice than them, in their minds.
Oh great and wise one, with your noodly appendages, please come and hasten the end of the 5th age of the sun. Harrrrrr.
Ramen.
culicomorpha states:
What a fascinating discussion. For me, it's fascinating because it so clearly demonstrates the the thing that really needs to be taught and discussed in schools at all levels, is not ID or Darwinism, it's epistemology: the branch of study concerned with how we know what we know, and upon what grounds this knowledge is based.
************
I quite agree with you on that--see my reply to Kernal above.
****************
I think Parenti is right in questioning the political and social motivations behind ID, since there are clear signs they have an agenda. They have some legitimate claims about the ignorance of science, but I suspect what they really want is another Dark Ages to consolidate their power, and I seriously doubt this is going to be a good thing for the planet, when there are 6+ billion people and growing. Business as usual will not be possible much longer - we are already running into our epistemological fallacies…
*********************
My problem with Parenti's stretch here is that he is using an explanation for the origins of biological life to explain something quite different. (Creationists do the same thing with their twisting of scripture meant to be an historical-cultural-moral document into a science text book!).
If one detests the fundamentalist religionists agenda (which is remarkably similar between radical Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) it is a fun mataphor.
However, let me remind you that the Communist and Fascist totalitarians of the 20th. Century did the same thing with Darwin's evolution and Einstein's relativity theories to validate philosophies of the master race and the new Marxist man to justify violence and murder that have been the equal of radical religiosity. Michael (who is a Marxist but not a totalitarian) treads on thin ice by so criticizing the religious wackos.
Kernel notes:
The only answer that makes sense to me is that a combination of the two positions could have happened and we will never know as long as we live in our present condition.
When facts and faith or facts and fear are in question, it appears that faith and fear will win the first round. Notice how people reacted to 9-11, when told we must live in constant fear, facts did not matter much.
******************
The above I believe is a very astute observation. We humans have always used "faith", "fear", and "magic" as ways of understanding what we cannot rationally explain.
Jean Piaget, the great Swiss psychologist, in his study of human development from childhood dependency to adult maturity noted as much. He also noted that physical and mental maturity are not synchronis--one can become physically mature and yet remain stuck at some more rudimentary level of mental cognition.
This is not meant to be a put-down of those in such condition--only to note that they are functioning at a different developmental level. Among both evolutionists and creationists there are great numbers of "magicians", and devout disciples of "faith" as both the emotional tone and dogmatism of some of the above replies indicate.
Regarding 9/11 and the national hysteria, I would like to recommend that you watch the movie "Who Killed John O'Neill?". It is at:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rCFWcKVeWUE&feature=PlayList&p=640DE08276785505&index=10
It takes about 1 hr and 40 minutes to view. I would enjoy your take on this movie in l;ight of what you have said above.
You can reach me at:
tlmac75@yahoo.com
********************
When it comes to science Americans are hopeless. What they excel at is sentimentality and religiosity. Americans evolve very slowly.
I will say it again. EVOLUTION IS NOT A THEORY. Darwin provided a theory for how evolution took place. Got it? How it took place. Evolution is as real as gravity. There are many theories to explain gravity, from exchange of particles to deformations of space time, but GRAVITY IS NOT A THEORY. Ms Goodall was a self-made ethologist on the borders of science, not a true scientist. To deny the existance of evolution is the same as suggesting that cars have not changed in 100 years. Do you not clearly see the evolution of cars? It isn't very complicated now, is it? Now, if you want to have a theory of car evolution be my guest, but don't pretend that whether or not cars evolved is still to be determined. The argument is RIDICULOUS
Interesting article and interesting comments. I was watching Bill Maher on HBO tonight and he had on the screen, Mr. Hawkins, the scientist and atheist. Maher brought up the "talking snake" issue in the allegorical Garden of Eden. I thought the show was pretty good tonight. You can see it throughout the week.
SIOUXROSE.I just finished a children's book that uses INSECTS to portray the 12 Zodiac signs. The ants, first expression of the 6th ray, Virgo, explain to Cassandra (who comes to learn about "the 12 rays") that there are certain UNRIDDABLES that are NOT Divine creation based… mosquitoes, the organic distillation of all the unhealed vengeance that gathers in rank quagmire, the flies, that feast on gossip, congregate on shit; and other blood sucking little beings… of course that's my allegorical reference, but who knows, it may have truth behind it?
WTF Smoke crack much???
Basically it boils down to this.
Do you believe in the scientific method of peer review, theorising, experimentation, reproducible results etc etc etc AND all the great things it has brought about for us or do you feel that the scientific community is a quasireligious bunch of zealots out to deceive society?
You cant have it both ways. Either science works or it doesn't.
If it is a load of crap then where did get all our knowledge of physics,(which has brought us such joys as flight, electromechanics, engineering), biology (which has brought us medicine, hygiene, agriculture), geology (which brought us minerals, understanding,wealth) and all the other scientifically influenced things we now take for granted?
You cant selectively choose some parts of scientific endeavor and say it is bogus without impugning all widespread scientific knowledge and that is just laughable.
Do you use the internet? -- Science!
Been to a doctor/hospital? -- Science!
Use electricity? -- Science!
Eaten food? -- Science!!
It is everywhere and people accept it because it works overwhelmingly better than superstition and the benefits are tangible and obvious for all to see.
Science exists and is well regulated. Frauds are exposed all the time and as it should be. There are plenty of charlatans and snake oil salesmen out there willing to chance putting on a white coat and making a bit of mischief.
It doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of scientific knowledge is unchallenged and by using the same methods to study evolutionary theory scientists have proven more than enough to stand alongside other widely accepted scientific claims. Anyone who states otherwise is either a blinkered dogmatist or is ignorant of actual scientific discoveries in the field of evolutionary theory. (and from some of the comments here I think quite a few of you need to go bone up on your studies as to what is known and what is not known)
mikk
What a fascinating discussion. For me, it's fascinating because it so clearly demonstrates the the thing that really needs to be taught and discussed in schools at all levels, is not ID or Darwinism, it's epistemology: the branch of study concerned with how we know what we know, and upon what grounds this knowledge is based.
Gregory Bateson wrote much about epistemology, and said often that one can have a wrong epistemology and get along quite well for a while. But eventually there comes a point where wrong ideas about the way things work will become painful, they will become lethal. His view - and I tend to follow his thinking on this matter, was that Darwin was wrong in considering the unit of survival as the individual organism, or species, or culture. The real unit of survival is the individual in their environment, the species in their environment, the culture in their environment. His most profound admonition was: the individual/species/culture that destroys its environment destroys itself. Seems fairly indisputable to me.
So in these kinds of discussions about whose beliefs are more legitimate, I tend to think mostly about how the different world views will relate to the environment. It seems to me ID would have nothing to say at all about the environment, and would simply continue to treat it as if it was our "dominion". Science, as Descartes described centuries ago, is all about "vexing" nature to make her give up her secrets. Not very ecologically oriented if you ask me. And all these molecular biologists, frankly, scare the heck out of me. The best worldviews, if we are concerned about survival, anyway, are ecologically based, like Native American, pagan, and newer deep-ecology worldviews. I don't think these matters are about proof, they are about appropriate courses of action given that we can never know so many things. They suggest proper ways to behave given we are largely ignorant, and will for the remainder of time continue in our ignorance.
I think Parenti is right in questioning the political and social motivations behind ID, since there are clear signs they have an agenda. They have some legitimate claims about the ignorance of science, but I suspect what they really want is another Dark Ages to consolidate their power, and I seriously doubt this is going to be a good thing for the planet, when there are 6+ billion people and growing. Business as usual will not be possible much longer - we are already running into our epistemological fallacies...
Poet__ I have to disagree somewhat with your position that faith is involved in both evolution and creationism. Most of the evolution theory is based on observation, discovery, and fact, with a slight bit of faith to pull it together.
Creationism, on the other hand is based entirely on faith, as there is absolutely no physical evidence of how the world came into being. It obviously does not make sense that mountains, seas, oceans, etc were put into place in a few of our day`s time, which causes the need for a great amount of faith that what is written is accurate without question.
However, can anyone actually comprehend a far off heaven or hell by seriously thinking about it? That is where faith enters the picture.
The only answer that makes sense to me is that a combination of the two positions could have happened and we will never know as long as we live in our present condition.
When facts and faith or facts and fear are in question, it appears that faith and fear will win the first round. Notice how people reacted to 9-11, when told we must live in constant fear, facts did not matter much.
Text Guru - I add my voice to others' praise of your really fine post.
POET - Your post on 'solution' was great, too. But I can't agree that both Evolution Theory and Creationism are faith-based to the same degree.
They're not fundamentally similar ways of Knowing. Nor is this to say they NEED to be similar, but only to say, like Text Guru says above, thatthe underlying proof system differences between them, need to be understood.
Creationism's [implicit] epistemolgy is totally non-scientific.
Evolution Theory at least does use scientific methods to explain the evidence it examines, and it only goes wrong at its own internal level when some of its spokespersons go beyond empirical proofs -- to then start making much broader transcendental claims. Dawkins commits this error in his 'The God Delusion' book, ironically insisting that the principle of Natural Selection "...will probably... also eventually..." explain the ORIGIN of the Universe and ITS fundamental Laws of material self- organization.
Most Evolutionists would never make Dawkin's claim about guaranteeing an explaination of the ORIGIN of matter out of Natural Selection principles, because this presumes to comprehend an provably incomprehensible pre-Creation (material-less) state. It's only when some few spokesperson do so, that Evolution Theory become momentarily misunderstood to be equal to the faith-based epistemology of Creationism or ID.
When I emailed Dawkins website, once, asking him how he can justify his faith-based extrapolation of the sensible, empirical proof principles of Natural Selection to the completely unknown (and as yet unknowable) Origination of Matter (out of a presumed Nothingness), I was surprised to get a rely. the reply was unsigned, but it went something like this:
Granted, that while the question you ask (about the source of the laws which originated the hydrogen proton, in other words, the self-organizing monopole soup of the infant Universe), can not be answered or modeled by any current level of scientific knowledge, it is admissible to extrapolate from the consistency of physical laws we observe so far in the Universe, which we study at both the micro and macro scales, reveals an unvarying pattern of self-organization that requires no unseen Agent.
There was more to the reply (about mysterious astronomical objects, like Balck Holes, theorized inter-dimensional Wormholes and Whiteholes, ect.), but this was the reasoning gist of the Dawkins website reply. And I was shocked, even as a an agnostic and as a fierce opponent of politically misused religious absolutism, plus as an acceptor of earth-based Evolution Theory, to receive such a groping (pretty evasive, if not stupid) reply about the question of Origin.
Cosmically tendentious leaps by some Evolutionists, like Dawkins' don't of course invalidate the Evolution Theory, any more or less than non-empirical claims by doctrinal Religionists validate Creationist theories or their derivative ethical systems.
I hate to sound like Donald Rumsfeld, here, but he was [accidently, generally, formally] correct in his little lecture about epistemology:
There are things we know we know
There are things we only think we know
There are things we know we don't know
There are things about which we don't even know we don't know.
Don of course got the contents of the first two categories disastrously wrong RE the Iraq War.
But less cockey people, trying to decide dizzying metaphysical questions, and how their possible answers ought or might relate to human political organization and policy questions, don't have to be as cockey as Rumsfeld or the more blatant doctrinal religionists. Normal people can sort out these ways of knowing and put them, categorically in their wholeness place. Wisdoms provided by people like Text Guru, Poet, Siouxrose make it possible. And yes, Danile David, too (whose alternately expressed, non-dogmatic observations were misunderstood, here and wrongly mocked.)
"1. Evolution claims that all life developed from simple to complex. fish became amphibians, snakes became birds, and lower order primates developed into humans for example. Yet there is no evidence within the fossil record of intermediary species that show the transition from one life form to another."
Sorry, Poet. Archaeopteryx. Definitely a transitional form between a dinosaur (NOT "snake") and a bird. And we've known about it since 1862.
Pull the other leg, it's got bells on. Or try a little research on your own instead of swallowing somebody else's codswallop.
JavaRunner--
I agree with much in your comment--I really like Michael Parenti when he focuses his radical analysis on economics, politics, and class struggle.
When he wanders into matters of science and faith he makes the same mistake as the Social Darwinists who used Darwin's explanation for biological life as a justification for their racist eugenics and the uebermensch doctrine.
Such nonsense led both fascist and communist totalitarians to commit some of the bloodiest and most violent attrocities in recorded history. Such is the vulnerability of being an ideologue trying to stretch an idea to purposes never intended by its originator.
DKM declares:
POET - "Both evolutionists and creationists believe what they do as a matter of faith because neither can scientifically prove their suppositions."
You blew it. Scientific investigations have shown time and again that the evolution "supposition" fits the facts that are turned up. A scientist doesn't believe something because of faith. S/he believes it because something happened to show that it was true, that there is physical evidence for a particular statement of fact.
****************
I understand your point and disagree. Let me illustrate with two examples of evolutionary "faith".
1. Evolution claims that all life developed from simple to complex. fish became amphibians, snakes became birds, and lower order primates developed into humans for example. Yet there is no evidence within the fossil record of intermediary species that show the transition from one life form to another.
If evoultion were a scientific fact, its proponents would be required to show the existence of intermediary species before claining such connectedness. That they have no such evidence but continue to believe in its existence anyway is based on "faith" and not "fact".
2. The interconnectedness of all life with each other--otherwise known as ecology argues against any gradual adaptation from one life form to another. Bees and pollen bearing plants cannot continue to exsiast without each other. The same is true with the many host-parisite realtionships wherein each life form depends on the other for its continued survival.
If evoultion were a scientific fact, its proponents would be required to show how the interconnectedness and interdependency of all life could have gradually happened before claiming that such occurred. That they have no such evidence or any such model but continue to believe in its existence anyway is based on "faith" and not "fact".
I don't bring up these scientific inconsistencies to chide evolutionists for or to persuade them from their "faith".
I mention these examples to say that the argument between evoutionists and creationists is a case of the pot calling the kettle black and that the argument does not belong in a science classroom.
>What is called "creationism" is the belief that in six days the Judeo-Christian god created the universe and all the earthly species including humans in finished form much as they exist today.
No, that's young-earth creationism.
Michael, I am a fan of yours and have seen you speak in public several times. We met in 2002 in Palo Alto. But as a physicist, engineer, and Information Technology technical writer I must offer some comments on your article.
1. Darwinism is as much a faith, or "world view," as Judaism or Christianity. Empirical science is about collecting data and formulating testable hypotheses. I can not prove that e-coli was designed by an intelligent being; Darwin cannot prove that it assembled itself by nothing but the unpredictable motions of Brownian movement.
2. Some faiths, like Christianity or Hinduism, can account for human consciousness: it is believed to be the "child" of eternal Consciousness, the Divine, God. Darwinism avoids the discussion by saying that consciousness is simply an "epiphenomenon" that is not subject to empirical inquiry and therefore is not to be discussed. This view, by the way, is slowly dissolving as more and more "new paradigm" scientists do want to study consciousness. One of them walked on the Moon.
3. Since the topic of Cosmogenesis is not one that pertains to empirical science but more properly belongs to the category of faith, we might be better off leaving it out of the science classroom. Science class should perform experiments that prove or falsify scientific hypotheses. For example in 11th grade Chemistry class we mixed two parts hydrogen with one part oxygen by molecular weight and proved that when combined they formed water. This is science. This is what distinguished western Christendom from the East. I note, however, that the East is catching on.
4. When I studied Molecular Biology at University of California at Santa Cruz in 2002 under a Ph.D. from Genentech I asked him about evolutionary theory. I also sought for its expression in the hefty 800 page textbook. It is essentially nowhere to be found. Why? Because it contributes nothing to the study of molecular biological science. Yes, we DO find that DNA is subject to stochastics science -- normal distributions and probability theory. But the same can be said for subatomic physics and election predictions. Gains in none of these fields, however, are attributable to speculations concerning Cosmogenesis. And neither Darwinism or Christianity should be taught in publics schools, except in history class to educate students as to their historicity. I have no problem with a history teacher telling children that a man named Charles Darwin lived and died and believed thus and so. Same for Moses and Jesus and Buddha. But please don't tell my niece that Cosmogenesis and molecular biology are nothing but expansion of a singularity followed by chance molecular interactions and then tell her this is empirical science, just like hydrogen (2) plus oxygen(1) equals water. It is not the same kind of discipline. Darwinism is just another faith model and should be presented as such. The examples of developing and adapting pathogens that you gave have nothing to do with Cosmogenesis: changing nucleic acid sequences are governed by the same laws of probability as the roulette wheel in Las Vegas.
5. One other comment. Just because 90% of professional scientists say they believe in evolution of life by chance, or global warming, does not make it science. 90% said that Ronald Reagan would make the best president but that was not science either. It was just their opinion and could be controlled by a hidden variable, like the fact that they expected Reagan would dish out more defense contracts for "scientists" to take advantage of. Okay, that was below the belt. But you get my point.
Well that's all for now. Visit www.sillyConValley.net and post a comment, Michael!
According to my folks, PBS's Intelligent Design on Trial on Nova last year won the argument in favor of evolution once and for all. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html
Even the judge, who had not been in favor of the evolutionary argument, ended by deciding it was substantial and credible while the ID and creationist agendas were, at least this time around, flimsy and ad hoc.
Siouxrose - ALWAYS a pleasure to chat with you.
Divine plan? Or divine opportunity?
Perhaps your goodness attracted the heron. Perhaps its goodness attracted you. I can't account for the attorney, but perhaps he was incidental to it all.
At a party once, in the late afternoon, people were amazed when they saw a butterfly sitting on my shoulder, warming itself.
I like to repeat this story because it makes me happy.
I hope you have a good weekend.
LOCUST: The Divine plan seems to have humor built into it. I believe in Divine order and look for the myriad forms it evidences itself. However, one of the great loves of my life was a very brilliant and cynical attorney. I'd explain my cosmic theories and he'd say, "OR maybe these are just stories we tell ourselves." An amazing white heron would fly over the convertible we'd be driving in, and I'd say, "Wow! A blessed omen!" and he's respond, "Or maybe it's just a white bird flying over the car." This is a planet of intended diversity, a living mosaic of pieces that sometimes abrade, but like all forces in nature, these interactions can lead to miraculous thing. IF the ground didn't open into a crevice due to perhaps a quake, mineral water would never get inside to make magical gem stones, light trapped and altering shape and consistency over time... perhaps we are like those stones in some way.
I have lived only half a century. I do not understand all of the universe, the billions of galaxies each of billions of stars, all 15 billion years of everything. I do not understand all of Earth's 5 billion year history.
If you have figured everything out in the pitiful few years of live granted to you by your mortal frame, then I'm happy for you.
I am comfortable with not knowing. I know my place. I find it fun to learn.
Others are not comfortable with not knowing. Creationism and ID are ways to pretend to know. Comforting. Absolute. No questions.
Many people need to have answers. Preferably involving a parental figure that takes care of them, either now or in the hereafter. Amen.
NAMASTE: I like to recognize those whose thoughts have moved me or taught me something. Someone accused me of being a moderator for CD as a result! Ha!
TEXT GURU -- very profound and insightful, please do publish more of your thoughts. SIOUXROSE makes it so easy to quickly find the great postings - Thanks !
Welcome to the community
Namaste
What is man? Are we there yet? In a million years will we look back at 'homomoron' and laugh at our arrogance that we believed we were finished - man.
There are two stories of creation as has been mentioned. The first, while using the poetic refrain of days to describe the passing of time (Christians who believe that walking on water is a miricle but the development and birth of a child over nine months is not, will disagree with me) describes first the cloud of gases that had no form but which had darkness in its depths. Then there was light. The big bang if I ever heard one. From this point be it the separation of the waters of the heavens from the waters of the Earth - a clear description of Earth's cooling - or the description of the evolution of plant and animal life that came from the sea, there are no serious deviations from the theory of evolution.
The second story of creation, however, is clearly allegorical - unless you think that two fruit-bearing trees make up a garden. In addition, in the way it completely contradicts the first explanation it is solely concerned not with man the creature but with man's consciousness. The point is explained where it says, "there was not a man who could till God's soil" or do God's will. What is to follow is the spiritual path man must follow to become enlightened. If he eats from the 'tree of life' he will continue in a state of bliss. However, if he eats from the tree of good and evil he will fall from grace. And, what is this second tree? It is the tree of the finite, the tree of relativity - good, bad, not so good, pretty good, great, and sod awful, but nowhere is there perfection - there is no infinite consciosness. On eating this fruit, Adam became afraid, guilty, angry, assigned blame, hid and lost the perfect love of God consciousness.
Christians have misunderstood this because they are not in Eden - they do not have infinite consciousness and have assumed that the story of Genesis is about something as mundane as the purely physical. But then many seem to think that artist's impressions of what Jesus may have looked like found on a mouldy piece of toast is a miricle.
GALEN: I applaud your becoming and enlightened male... just as many women have come to embrace their inner masculine, to own jobs and a voice in the world; many men are learning to become caring nurturers. On the soul level, we all own both aspects; it's that the world has only lent HOLY value to one side of "the force" for so long. Yeah. I'd visit B.C. And by the way, that geography, by its name, could reflect a time before Christ, not the enlightened truly gifted one, but the masses who under false direction have turned His teachings on themselves in a mad rush to war and murder.
MIKK: I just finished a children's book that uses INSECTS to portray the 12 Zodiac signs. The ants, first expression of the 6th ray, Virgo, explain to Cassandra (who comes to learn about "the 12 rays") that there are certain UNRIDDABLES that are NOT Divine creation based... mosquitoes, the organic distillation of all the unhealed vengeance that gathers in rank quagmire, the flies, that feast on gossip, congregate on shit; and other blood sucking little beings... of course that's my allegorical reference, but who knows, it may have truth behind it?
TheProf- Playing with DNA in your basement with little knowledge or training? Creating 'synthetic' DNA strands with no idea what they will do when released into the wider environment?
The very conception of the thought of that statement scares the living hell out of me.
It should scare, no, TERRIFY every person here on CD as well.
If that is progress, if that Frankenstein genie-in-a-bottle is science, then the collapse of Western technological man can not come soon enough.
If some bumbling idiot with a basement DNA lab can create a CDC Level Four bio-hazard with little or no training, then truly, GOD HELP US ALL!
POET - "Both evolutionists and creationists believe what they do as a matter of faith because neither can scientifically prove their suppositions."
You blew it. Scientific investigations have shown time and again that the evolution "supposition" fits the facts that are turned up. A scientist doesn't believe something because of faith. S/he believes it because something happened to show that it was true, that there is physical evidence for a particular statement of fact. The same cannot be said for creationists. The Discovery Institute, by the way, has had over $1,000,000 a year budgeted for doing science to show that some Designer was responsible for creation. So far they haven't published anything that comes close to doing that, even in their own journals.
And a response to someone questioning whether screwed up biological engineering reflected a designer or the accidents of evolution, no, an omnipotent designer wouldn't have made things so haphazardly. If It needed a particular structure, It would have created that structure, not have jury rigged something from an already existing structure. That is much more efficient and functional.
"TheProf- I have yet to see ANY DNA lab, ANYWHERE say they have created a new lifeform, PLANT OR ANIMAL, from raw elemental material. No new plants or animals that have not previously been found or cataloged. Not even single celled ones.
NO NEW DNA STRANDS HAVE BEEN 'CREATED'!!"
Galen, as you say we know of no new lifeforms that have been created. However when a DNA synthesizer is used to produce oligomers that are then assembled into DNA strands of a few thousand bases I contend that this synthetic DNA is created, whether you call it new is simply semantics. I would give a citation but I prefer not to widely distribute this information since, as I said, it is so simple that you can do it in your basement with very little knowledge or training.
For all you godbotherers
Have you not heard of superbugs, drug resistant bacteria and viruses like malaria and TB??? What about insect resistance to pesticides and weeds that thrive no matter how much roundup you spray????
Did god "create" or "design" these bad and harmful things???
Or did they "EVOLVE"?????
Siouxrose- Actually, for the commune, how does interior BC, Canada sound? People I know used to scoff at what I was saying. Now they come to me for advice. Usually I say something pithy like "Ask the Amish."
But is for my daughter, and my lady's four children that I keep up this struggle.
I guess what I am trying to say is that while I knelt at the altar of Technology and Aggression as a youth, I have since come to despise the shallow gilded promises of that temple as an adult, and now, in the dawning of my Elder years, am becoming an asset to my community. A Sage if you will.
Walk in peace.
DKM: How about the idea of "reality displacement theory." I dated a guy (a real charmer, by the way) who bragged that he had a degree in biology. When we went to dinner he waxed lyrical about born again Christian themes. I hesitantly asked him if he went along with Jerry Fallwell, when he informed me he was a graduate of Bob Jones University! He called it "right" of Fallwell. Without any hint of hiding my cynicism, I asked if he was one of those loons that didn't believe in evolution after having STUDIED biology. For him, faith was an impenetrable wall that precluded LOGIC.
Anyone who visits Grand Canyon is left with shock and awe, and part comes from seeing how animal and plant life, only a mile or so apart (separated by the centuries the Colorado River cut through the canyon, cleaving it into two different ecosystems. They differ due to rainfall sums, and wind, and other variable) so vastly diverges. Every living thing adapts to its environment. Wasn't it Lamarck whose theories were discouraged/discounted who applied a sort of intelligent design to WHY animals adapted. How was it that a certain animal realized what it might eat to ward off the loss of its prefered diet, etc. I believe ALL life is endowed with intelligence, inasmuch as that which is LIFE works to preserve itself. There's a genius to it all... a quality that permeates every living molecule. Some call it instinct, mystics call it soul memory. By any name, it is intended to WOW us for LIFE is a gift intended to be shared by diverse orchestra of players.
GALEN: If you establish the commune (wasn't it in Baja?) I'd probably manage to make a visit. Between the stock market fluxes, global warming, the about-to-escape methane gas problem, the probable blowback from US violent karma... the very PREMISE of safety or security has been dismantled. Talk about a time to live by faith, grace, and doing good acts that one hopes will provide a certain insurance against the aforementioned. But there are always OTHER lifetimes... (she said reluctantly.)
Reading some of these posts, I wonder if they read the article. The point that the scientific concept of "theory" and the usual concept of the word "theory" are very different doesn't seem to have sunk in. The scientific theory of evolution is based in a very large number of indisputable facts. Among these facts are the common DNA code, the fossil record replete with intermediary forms, common embryological development, homologous body parts, common biochemical pathways among related groups, and many more. For some people to say that it isn't proven is to say that they don't want to look at the evidence. Countries have been invaded based on a lot skimpier evidence.
Why not teach the "controversy?" Because there is no controversy. So far no one has been able to come up with any evidence that contradicts evolution. The best they can do is say that they found something that remains to be looked at. Darwin's theory of how biological change has come about has stood the test of time very well, and new discoveries are constantly adding to the structure.
Every example of Behe's claim of irreducible complexity has fallen by the wayside when looked at closely. He "misstated" when he claimed that a literature search had shown no explanation for the evolution of flagella and at the next general meeting, a list of over 500 citations was given to him. The clotting cascade has been shown to have evolved from mutations in one family of enzymes. The eye has been shown time and again to have evolved and the proteins that Behe claims are examples of irreducible complexity are shown to be members of protein families that exist in every other cell.
But typical of the nonscientific mindset, he just goes on and on with different examples and as each one is shot down, says, "Oh, well. How about something else?" How many times do you have to show him and the rest of the IDers that his hypothesis is wrong before he gives it up?! Dembski is another example of the same phenomenon. He keeps getting shot down and keeps coming back with the same argument applied to another example.
GALEN: I am very happy to receive your compliment... as a writer, I put a lot of emphasis into names, and I think Shakespeare did, too... how about Mercutio, of "Mercury-style" wit, etc. Galen reminds me of Galahad... and in one of my tarot decks, the page/prince of cups. He's a take on one of the young, faithful knights in search of the Holy Grail. Many moons ago in Key West I met a woman who had had an affair with a popular local celeb of sorts, only to find out she'd been exposed to AIDS. Also, she was pregnant. She asked me to pull a card for her and I pulled the one I just mentioned, the page of cups. It represents FAITH in love. On a logical level I reasoned with her that AIDS sometimes took over a decade to evidence itself, and that decade would constitute the remainder of her viable child-bearing years. Thus given that and the Tarot card, I recommended she go ahead and have the baby. When HE was born, he looked just like the blond blue eyed Page of cups and to this day is a healthy child. She, too, never succumbed to the disease. Interesting, huh? I have had MANY experiences like this, which is why I stand up to those who live by logic alone and do not recognize that our universe can be best beholden through BOTH hemispheres of the brain, that is Holism... not a refutation of linear science and what it reveals, but a marriage of its revelations to that which remains ensconced in deep, profound, HOLY mystery.
evolution theory is superfulous and good for nothing..it is spewed out only to undermine the Bible and Jesus Christ..it is pure unadulerated propaganada and nothing else and it is sad to see supposedly educated people fall for this trick of the devil..
Poet- Love the idea. Now how do we carry it out?
Siouxrose- Wanna join my anarcho-syndicist commune? ( I can't help it... I'm a smart ass) But seriously, I love your posts. You are a breath of fresh spiritual air in here. KEEP IT UP!
TOM LARSEN: Adept analysis... feudalism indeed, and when a near majority is taught to believe that what's being done by their authoritarian masters (curently: the torture litmus test, aided and abeted by TV's dubious "24 hours") is being done in God's "name," woe to the rest of us. I believe in reincarnation and can nearly smell those fires up close and personal, ONCE AGAIN... anyone who doesn't conform to these uni-forming pro-clone power hungry groups is soon castigated as heretic, dangerous outsider, evil one, danger to the group... to be done away with. Has history not traveled a great many times down this road? How many cultures have worn this torn garment? And still so many cannot see! This is why America set an example (initially) to the world in setting forth a government where church and state, as twain, would never meet. And the slobs who are pro-torture and pro-capital punishment, who stand back as the rich get richer and average decent folks struggle brutally for their daily bread (and hospital bill) PUSH this agenda. "You will know them by their fruits." Indeed... the ROT has set in deep.
JOHNNY MO: I probably see it as you do. Creation IS an ongoing process, it never stopped... that there is a Divinity that shapes our ends, I accept; it does not impose upon the genetic process already underway as LIFE (a projection of the Divine energy) finds its own infinite ways to adapt to this magnificent planet that is home to so many diverse ecosystems... a great many failing due to toxic overload, and for the west, our abject rejection of simplicity and our lack of gratitude for having enough in pursuit of the false quests to more, bigger, faster...
TEXT GURU: Stunning wisdom! Love your post!
KENT SHAW: It's purported the Atlanteans penetrated the genetic codes and combined species never intended to be married together, the result was that the very elementals rebeled and land masses were sunk. Seems about where America is right now... breaking covenants with long-established weather systems, raping the sacred gene banks that belong to Gaia (this added to actual war and desecration of ecological HOLY sights).
Just perhaps there is a Supernatural Being, All- knowing with unlimited intelligence who lives outside the realm of time where thousands of years is as a day and is thus unaffected by time's constraints as we are. Perhaps this Great Entity has in fact created all matter and life in the universe through an evolutionary manner. Unfortunately due to humanity's finite existence we have a propensity towards tunnel vision concerning almost everything under the sun where there are unknowns, after all our views are important aren't they? Moreover by nature we all tend to adhere to polemic views due to our inherently disagreeable natures, we in our finite wisdom would rather argue and bicker over it endlessly because it is in our nature to do that rather than think outside of the box.
The problem:
Both evolutionists and creationists believe what they do as a matter of faith because neither can scientifically prove their suppositions.
The irony:
Science is suppossed to concern itself with verifiable fact and not faith of any sort.
The solution:
Teach science in science class.
Teach evolution is philosophy class.
Teach creationism in comparitive religion class.
Evolution may be "just a theory", but nowhere does it comment on God, affirmative or negative.
The problem with creationism and its stealth cousin, intelligent design, is
that they both say, "God had to have done things in ways WE would prefer",
ie. arbitrarily. This is anthropomorphic arrogance.
Let's, for the sake of argument, assume there is a God(I actually do, though
I would be foolish to try to prove it). Let's assume that this God is "omnipotent". In this case, if God decrees, "Let there be light", or "Let
matter evolve to become life", I would be wildly arrogant to tell God, "no,
this could not have happened as somebody wrote a book saying it happened another way, and the book will take precedence." This is bibliolatry.
Humans are here to figure out what is going on, and to make what is going on
as good as possible for as many as possible, not to dispute about how a myth
contradicts reality. There is a habit westerners have: valuing only what is
verifiable. Myths are factually untrue, and this is verifiable, but they are meant to point one at what is ultimately true. This stands in stark opposition to a lie, which is verifiably untrue, but is meant to mislead.
A Gallilean Chassid urged us to be good to one another, not to create Inquisitions in order to discover who takes the wrong attitudes toward this or that book.
The store of Genesis is a store of the past. It is about describing what happened before humans started telling each other stories, it is about looking back. And when you look back, just like when you look into the distance, you see what is close by much larger than what is far away. Your eyes give you a linear concept of what in fact is a logarithmic reality. For instance, what is one kilometre away looks twice as far as what is one hundred meter away, though in reality it is ten times farther off. The same applies for the six days of creation. If you put them on a logarithmic scale and you begin with accepting that the one day in which man was created more probably was something of ten thousand years, then you end up with a pretty realistic history of how the once barren earth came into being. Whether it was God's doing or divine accident is really of less importance.