Conyers is a coward. He and the other Democrats have already wasted many opportunities to confront the current imperial presidency. There's no point in writing "stronger laws" if you don't make law breakers pay for violating the current ones.

Our congress is a farce. If they have any power, they refuse to use it. They seem to be at the bottom of the political totem pole, and that's where they like it. Their main job is sucking up to lobbyist, so they can get more money to be re-elected. They have rendered themselves null and void.
Hey, at least they get good wages and benefit's with a good retirement program. And then when they leave govermnent, they get to be lobbyist's for the same people they served while they were in office.

Yoo should just blow them off. What are they going to do? The answer is nothing. Cry maybe. The whole lot of them are a bunch of do-nothing bobble-heads wasting taxpayer money.

militantliberal & willo,

Unfortunately, I can not disagree with you guys.

More of a waste of tax money. They put on this dog & pony show and then will do nothing. Their investments in government contractors and arms manufacturers keep making money for them so why disturb the status quo? Yoo should be elevated to a custodial position at Berkeley so that he can scrub the floors more effectively with cleanser rather than with our Constitution. Why waste their and our time with this sham?

Conyers wants to 'shoot the messenger', huh?

Shame on You, John. Yoo was being paid as an attorney -- and it sounds like he did 'a great job of-it'.
Don't blame the Practitioners for the so-called 'Law' -- blame the Lawmakers.
Blame generations of bad-Judges for crappy-Precedents and misinterpretion of the Constitution.
Blame 'You', not Yoo...(after all, John -- you're the damn-Chair of the Judiciary Committee -- not Yoo!). [sheesh!]

They better jump when he says jump, or else Conyers might respond with a 'strong letter'. 30 lashes with a limp noodle will follow if he still doesn't get a response. And if that doesn't do the trick, he might just pull out the dreaded comfy chair.

The goal of the Democrats is not to change this. The Democrats have known about this all along. The Democrats have always been team players and fully on board with the expansion of US police state powers. The only thing the Democrats complain about is that they aren't in power so they aren't the ones wielding them.

What the Democrats want is a few cheap headlines to help their campaigns to win elections and seize this power for themselves. That's why they do some bs hearings that generate those headlines, but then never take any real action.

If you want something different, stop voting Democrat.

How about this-all the commenters beating up on the dems-not the nut-cake repubs and prez.

"The judiciary committee will look at the legal basis for actions taken before and during the war and whether we need to write stronger laws to prevent a future imperial presidency from steamrolling Congress and the American people," the Democratic congressman who chairs the panel, John Conyers, said.

Why have they not done this before???????????
Is this delay aiding and abetting the crimes Mr. Yoo has committed against his fellow man?

Professor Yoo would be a perfect lawyer for the Mafia. I guess there's more money to be had these days with our elected gangsters than the old fashioned, quaint, Mafia.

I have read several posts asking why the UC of Berkely would have such an odious person teaching law and other posts asking what are the sudents doing about it. Well, from my recollection, over two years ago there were large calls for ridding the school of such a person as Yoo.

From what I recall, the school itself brought up the issue of freedom of speech. So, even though the vast majority of students would refuse to take a course given by this professor, they should still not stifle freedom of thought and speech. So I applaud the school for standing on principles.

It is too bad that the same doesn't apply to so many other schools and universities around the nation for scholars who go against the dogma of the neocon school of thought.

From TV, newspapers, magazines - most all forms of communication, the cards are stacked in favor of those who will uphold the failed, immoral, illegal, unamerican actions and beliefs of the powerful elite.

Although we appear to be losing in the short term, those who stand by time-proven and honoured thought and action will one day be vindicated.

Perhaps these thoughts of mine are "quaint" but the truth is that human nature hasn't changed much in the last 10,000 years or so. Human control and knowledge has changed, but the seven deadly sins are as much alive as they were when civilization began. And from most sources, it is agreed that our definition of civilization first began where today so many people are commiting atrocities and the very real possibility exists of ending civilization as we know it.

Sadly for our children, the very real fact that civilization (again, as we have defined it) could end in the same place it began, precious little time remains for a miracle. Yes, a miracle, because I can see nothing else that can stop the madness.

I love the saying,"think globally, act locally." Sadly, even that belief in helping heal this planet is looking more and more like a fantasy. The laws are in place to render the idea of acting locally to improve the whole is going to be illegal and dangerous.

At this moment, all I can cling to is hope - the last thing to come out of Pandora's box. Hope in a miracle.

Somehow, we the people have to start holding our own hearings since we can't rely on Congress to do it. Any ideas?

Sadly, nothing will happen until after the election, if it goes well, and then there'll be a flurry of activity, because after all, everyone wants re-election first and principle after that.
On the other hand, can we practice enhanced interrogation techniques on John Yoo so we can see how fabulously effective they are?

melmac78

How about this-all the commenters beating up on the dems-not the nut-cake repubs and prez.
_______________________________

How about it, indeed?

Those who are desperate or deluded enough to have faith in the Democratic Party being "part of the solution" (to resuscitate a phrase from the awful, awful '60s) often raise this point. Usually they're not shy about scolding the commenters on how stupid or foolish it is to waste ammunition on the good guys instead of the pure evil emanating from the Executive Branch and Republic Party leadership.

It's really not so remarkable. The nut-cake repubs and prez are a foregone conclusion, a given-- because there's no opposition party to speak of. The Democratic leadership has seen to it that the nut-cakes aren't going anywhere until their term(s) run out.

So of course thoughtful people are inclined to direct their justifiable bitter disappointment and anger at the party that talks out of both sides of its mouth while enabling the nut-cakes.

Why, one might ask, don't the students at UC Berkeley boycott and/or picket the scumbag Yoo's courses until he is driven off this reputedly progressive campus, with his tail between his legs, like the despicable cur he is.

"...whether we need to write stronger laws to prevent a future imperial presidency from steamrolling Congress and the American people" said Conyers

Impeachment? I thought the law already existed. just put it on the table.

interesting that Conyers is only concerned with "future" imerial presidents tacitly admiting to the existence of at least one previous(or current) imperial presidency.

Because the Dems are the majority in Congress. That means Rep John Conyers, the committee chair is a democrat. Committee chairmen with a majority of votes in their party have a great deal of control over the actions of their committee, just like the Speaker of the House, also a Democrat, has a great deal of control over the actions of the House as a hole.

The Dems can't have it both ways. They can't run a 2006 campaign about how important it is to elect a Democrat majority to start reigning in the Republicans, then not take the responsibility for what they do, or more often don't do, once they have that majority.

Sorry, the Dems have responsibility here as they have the majority in Congress. Can't dish this one off on the Republicans that are now the minority party.

The Dems have control of the budgets of these agencies.
The Dems have control of powers of Congress, include supeonas and contempt of Congress charges.
The Dems have the authority to start impeachment procedings.

Our system of checks and balances is built upon the idea that the Congress (now under Democrat control) exercises these powers. The responsibility for the abandonment of these powers and their willingness to constantly protect the Republicans in the administration from facing legal consequences for their illegal behavior falls directly on the Democrats. They can not avoid this.

Nothing will happen after the election. The only actions that will happen will occur before the election, and they'll only focus on getting headlines to aid the Dems in that election.

After the election, even if the Dems control both the White House and Congress, all we'll hear about is 'bi-partisanship', and 'looking to the future and not the past' and being 'uniters' instead of being 'divisive'.

Sorry, I've seen this movie before when the Clinton's took power from Bush Sr in 92 and didn't do anything to hold Reagan\Bush official accoutable. And Obama's rhetoric about 'unity' and not 'division' is clearly signalling that he'll repeat this again (much to the joy of the Wall St money that's backing him.)

I have lost my faith in our government. It's all just corporate B.S in which everything is either "buy in" or "sell out!" If anything, my faith runs strong with people -- and I don't give-in to how the mass media portrays us. Heroes and heroines are very much alive among the masses. But -- you'll never hear or see them among the game show hosts, politicians, plastic newscasters or celebrities. My focus is the everyday person which this current governmnet couldn't give a rat's butt to serve or even honor!

Uncle Sam Wants Yoo?

Yeah, sure and we need to secede or another Flood.
But the Cheney/Bush War on the World is making progress:
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has said that the world economy will grow much more slowly in the next two years as a result of the credit crunch.

COMarc wrote: "Sorry, the Dems have responsibility here as they have the majority in Congress. Can't dish this one off on the Republicans that are now the minority party."

A little attention given to the facts reveals that the Dems do not, in fact, hold a majority in the Congress. They hold a majority only in th House of Representatives. Thanks to uber-hypocrite and Bush supporter Joe Lieberman, the Dems do not have a voting majority in the Senate.

The issue discussed in the article and all the sins of this administration are the responsibility of the Republicans.

jj

I agree with superdumb.

Ya don't have to be supersmart to see that Conyers and Pelosi are non leaders for upholding the constitution.

They give Bush all the blood he can suck out of us.

I can't blame it all on Republicans.

If the Dems lost upholding the constitution at least they would lose on something that would matter.

Now they lose on everything and blame the Republicans anyway.

If they showed courage, they could rally clean up and deserve it.

What's done, is done.

No one will care while struggling to feed and house his/her family in the coming months and years and decades.

The light of knowledge and civilization is a little dimmer than yesterday.

im glad for all Conyers has done, if it wasn't for his voice there would be very little resistance in our congress to the neocons. and the resistance that Conyers has produced has been squashed at every turn, dont you people remember the impeachment attempt in the basement? there was very little support. and please dont think just because that representatives & senators have 'demo' next to their name that they will vote properly or for the majority. And may God curse every SOB that is a 'bluedog' or votes like a bluedog.

Well Wild,

Maybe after the elections things well change.

Call me crazy but I live on Hope.

wild_watcher, right on target. Yup.

The Republicans in the Senate have blocked all attempts by the Democrats to do anything meaningful. This is all by the rules and called a fillibuster. Actually they don't even have to fillibuster anymore (it's been a long time since Mr. Smith went to Washington), merely threaten.

What I would like to know is - When did loyalty to Party and President take precedence over loyalty to country? Upholding the Constitution? Maintaining the integrity of checks and balances?

How can these people (and the alien life-form Lieberman) look themselves in the mirror with anything less than shame and disgust?

What a waste. Horrible stuff happens. They start pointing the finger of blame. And while they're all lost in the latest scandal, another one get cooked up.

It's hopeless. The US is kaput.

Any therapists out there reading this? I need your help! I'm so violently sickened by Yoo's bullshit rationalizations for torture that I want to see him tarred and feathered. The conflict hurts my head! What do I do?!

That Yoo is a professor proves to me, that the US is a corrupt and immoral society.

This is not about freedom of speech. This is about

the use of torture on sometimes innocent people

in opposition to the civilized laws the western world has taken thousands of years to produce.

Yoo should be put on trial for instigating and encouraging crimes against humanity.

And forget about the dems or the repubs... large segments of the American people support torture. There is the source of the problem...the American people...not their leaders.

colleen -- you're right, but I hasten to add it doesn't matter whether the torturee is innocent or not. It's wrong and illegal either way.

The US is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Conventions is a treaty. Article VI of the US Constitution states that any treaty entered into by the US is the law of the land on equal footing with the Constitution itself. Ergo -- and mind you, I'm no Constitutional "scholar" like Yoo -- the guy should be disbarred, at a minimum. Were there justice, he'd be tried for treason along with his former bosses.

HYBRIDOMA: Good post.

No doubt the White House promised Yoo--extending the ever immutable law of legal commerce, the quid pro quo: "Cover our ass on torture, and we'll GET you a cushy university job that in turn will add clout to your resume." He complied. I doubt if Berkeley really wanted him. It's like the way big pharma offers universities huge grants (cause who has the big bucks these days, after all with so many sick from faux food, toxic chemical exposures, depression with very REAL causes) to "conduct research" under their purview. It's ALL about the $, and ethics are now on the "Endangered Species" list.

MeAlsoToo: "Conyers wants to 'shoot the messenger', huh?
Don't blame the Practitioners for the so-called 'Law' — blame the Lawmakers."

Guess what? The 'We were following orders' excuse was tried once before at Nuremburg. It was a lame cop out then and it's a lame cop out now. He believed in every word he wrote. If he didn't then he should have resigned. Stop trying to excuse a torturer MeAlsoToo.

metal dog

Yes torture is always wrong..but.I can understand under the threat of combat in a war someone breaking down and using it, but it is always wrong.

And it is wrong for the government to legally support this use of torture. This is a very clear bright line of morality that has been crossed.

The reports I have read said there was a group of CIA agents who were traveling to different nations and teaching different forms of torture.

I remember before the Iraq war people posting on some sites were writing about the crimes committed by Saddam Hussein and they seemed to think that once Saddam was removed Iraq would be changed. But there was a network of people in Iraq who were committing those atrocities. A leader of a nation is only one person and can not continue without the support of some percentage of the population.

Bush still has wide support among Republicans and the US is in danger of electing McCain.

While many progressives or liberals complain about the leaders, imo it is the American people themselves who are at fault. The leaders reflect the people.

I am disgusted by this use of torture.

MetalDog April 9th, 2008 4:47 pm

"Any therapists out there reading this? I need your help! I'm so violently sickened by Yoo's bullshit rationalizations for torture that I want to see him tarred and feathered. The conflict hurts my head! What do I do?!"

I'm far from being a therapist, but have you ever tried visualization techiniques? Get on the couch, close your eyes and visualize Yoo tied-up naked with his his arms and legs spread apart. Then visualize yourself as the guy with the trowel spreading the tar on his naked body. After you're done spreading the tar, visualize yourself sticking the feathers on him in batches or one-by-one.......whatever makes you feel better!

Isn't there a Yoo Tube we can send John down? Jokes aside, the constitutional situation has found its most dangerous threat in this sort of mentality than I have ever concieved of in my nearly eighty years. In this regard,It's time to give up the BS about not using torture, etc. and tell ourselves and the world the truth about what Mr. Cheney has lovingly called our "Dark Side" practices.

"Stop trying to excuse a torturer MeAlsoToo."

I'm not 'excusing him' -- I'm just making a relative-Judgment. [And my Opinion is 'correct', because ALL Opinions are -- by definition]
Yoo was paid to be a Lawyer by a client wanting 'certain things' -- and he delivered (as the Law obliges him to).
Conyer's, on the other-hand, is a Lawmaker.
[Yoo, by the way, is Repentant -- Bush is Not!]

Who was 'more guilty' at Nuremberg?
They who 'followed orders' (without choosing self-destruction -- owing to 'better-character' and Values)?
Or, those who 'gave the Orders' (without any compunctions, whatsoever)?
Both may be guilty -- but, who 'the more so'?

Yoo was, at worst, an 'Accessory after the Fact' (in his-Parlance).
Yoo, also, never tortured ANYONE. He correctly interpreted the Law (a Law he never 'wrote'). He (like all-Attorney's) was dealing with the Hypothetical -- a Fiction.
In Corinthians, Paul said: "The letter of the Law killeth". Some Roman said: "The Law is an Ass". Both were 'correct'.
Yoo was 'correct'.
Lawyers are not SUPPOSED to be 'ethical above all else'...they are supposed to 'win, by torturing what the meaning of "is" is' [like Clinton quipped-about)..

If we only had

An opposition party

And

An independent media.

my lawyer wrote a brief saying the income tax is unconstitutional.................

and that neocons are terrorists.........

until the supreme court tells me otherwise

Who is more guilty? Good question! Personally I think they're both equally guilty. Where were his morals then? why didn't he resign? Because to follow your logic either:

A.) He's a greedy bastard, or
B.) He has no morals whatsoever, or
c.) He had his arms twisted and is a victim himself.

As for him not being a torturer, answer me this:
If Steve pays me to tell Bill it's okay to beat Joe nearly to death and he does it, what am I guilty of? Can I use the fact that Steve paid me to tell Bill it was okay to batter Joe as a sucessful defense in court? Talk about a circular argument.

MeAlsoToo

You are engaging in the worst kind of sophistry. Yoo wasn't merely tendering an opinion. He was telling his "client" that it was okay to commit a felony. Any real lawyer who advised a client that committing a crime was okay would be at the very least disbarred.

Not only did Yoo advise his client to break the law but he teaches other lawyers in a prestigious university in a nation that has advertised itself as a moral leader to the world.

Conyers is a coward, the Congress is a farce, the Democrats are complicit. DO I need to say more?

metal dog

Rather than trying to hurt them..think about how disgusting they are as human beings. Yoo has been given a first class education and used it to committ a crime agaisnt humanity and also attacked the US political system.. These people (Yoo, Addington Cheney and Bush) should be removed from power and Yoo should be disbarred. Thats what would happen if the US followed its own laws and were a moral nation. But the US is not doing that. Average Americans are unaware of the names of the people who were tortured and how several of those tortured were completely innocent. People like Maher Arar have been found innocent when their cases were presented in western courts of law and Arar was awarded millions of dollars for the injustice and torture he endured

But Americans are so imbued with pride they can not deal with this crime against humanity that goes against what the US should stand for. Most Americans can not handle it that the US under the Bush administration has committed a grievous crime and has covered it up.

Maybe the conservative, Andrew Sullivan is correct and other nations will bring these criminals to justice.

What ever happened to the sixties?

Hysbridoma, I disagree with you (and Yoo). A lawyer who gives advice urging a client to commit felonies is unethical. This was not a matter of nuances of understanding, and the opinion went against every legal precedent. He was not so much counsel as co-conspirator and should be dismissed from the university (I'm sure he could land a job as counsel for the American Psychological Association) and disbarred. The just-following-orders defense went out with Nuremburg, and he should be held responsible. Would you also defend Goebbels and those at Radio Mille Collines in Rwanda on the grounds of free speech?

Why isn't Yoo out there protesting the Olympics torch in support of human right abuses in Tibet?

potter- They look in the mirror and are proud that they had the strength and resolve to cheat and amass their fortunes, while muttering to themselves that they got theirs the hard way and have borne the risk and now, if we want a piece of the pie, we can damn well go through what they have had to endure. These aren't regular folks with an ordinary conscience and basic human values, they are evil. Try to grasp that. Quit judging them by your values, they ain't there.

John Yoo should be interogated. Maybe just maim him a little bit. On a limb that would not cause death....