I have a friend who had long hair and protested the war in Vietnam and is against the invasion of Iraq.

I have a friend who was considered the best Marine platoon commander at the siege of Khe San in 1968, winning a purple heart and silver star.

Who is more patriotic? You can't lose. It's the same guy. There is no such thing as patriotism.

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/

The link says it all, or enough anyway

You saw it wrong, the're all here. Must have been a different thread with the 400+.

What hapenned to all the posts, last time I looked there were close to 400 ???

RE: Earl Simmins April 6th, 2008 8:01 am
"What does any of this have to do with Britney Spears ' drinking problem, erratic behavior, and child custody problems?"

Actually everything, Earl, because if the corporate media would stop promoting flakes like her we might even get information from our TV's instead of inconsequential BS.

jake, you are deluded. Claims are WTC7 was damaged at the base indicate it should have toppled TOWARD the injury instead of straight down (when someone kicks you in the knee do you fall straight down?). How do you explain film showing 5 very obvious squibs (indicating explosions) on the northeast corner of WTC7 right as the implosion starts...despite there being no fire in that area, nothing hit it there, and the building was just starting to collapse? Look at the video again.

http://www.stoplying.ca/video/richard_gage_wtc7.htm

While numerous naysayers chide those of us with the taunt, "But these are just opinions of persons who are not 'experts' in the applicable fields", when 100 respected architects & engineers speak out against the 'big lie' they are ignored. You can't have it both ways folks. Why such a long delay in the investigation? Keep in mind this administration has consistantly been in denial of climate change, despite over a thousand credible scientists reporting otherwise.

911 is the focal point that led to hundreds of thousands of lives lost, looting of our treasury, trillions in un-necessary expense, rape of our Constitutional rights, huge hidden tax increases for most Americans (except those in the top few percent of income gainers...note I didn't say earners), inflation, and diverting essential funds from social programs & infrastructure repairs here so we can build billion dollar embassies in Iraq. Enough is enough.

Don't you think with 25% of the population surveyed saying they think the Bush administration complicit in one way or another in the events of 911 (that's 75+ MILLION citizens) we deserve a comprehensive & complete re-examination of the events of that pivotal day? Only people with something to hide, or so fearful of finding out our government is of, by, and for only themselves, so they stick their denying heads in the sand of hope & faith alone, would argue against such an impartial investigation.

Almost everything has. The cost of fuel has created most of that situation. It's out of control now.

Gold, oil, milk, all up. In fact I saw a newspaper article yesteday that sawdust has doubled over the last year.

Ya know what, while we're blogging dumb comments here about what happened several years ago, (at least I am), we have a coming depression to think about. Are you prepared for it?

"Thanks, clovis, I'm glad to see someone here who took the time to do their homework."

He's done no such thing. He has repeated the same crap, that has already been debunked, and ignores the debunking arguments, you are doing the samw. The video you posted doesn't prove a thing.

"they magically fell straight down "

You think they should have toppled to the side like in some cartoon. They fell exactly the only way they could have fallen, towards the pull of gravity.

" I'm well aware of the risk."

Yeah right, the troothers hold regular seminars and conventions without any fear.

I don't want hi-speed internet ~Paul~, it's hard enough for and old fart like myself to keep up with the low-speed I have and hi-speed apparantly messes up people's minds, watching "propaganda" videos. Have you ever seen Abbott and Costello meet the wolf man? I thought it was real for a long time. That's what videos can do to a person.

Thanks for the concern, mikepeters, I'm well aware of the risk. Hell, I'm 60 years old, impoverished, have had 4 brain surgeries, and disabled physically for the past 16 years, so what could ANYONE possibly do to make me a trembling, weak, fearful bowl of mush like too many other Americans. "I'm not giving in to fear", as the CSNY lyric goes. People are now waking up to how we have all been criminally used & abused. When millions face losing their jobs, homes, and/or freedom the boil will come to a head, and I take great comfort tens of millions more Americans are now rearing up on their feet, thoroughly pissed, and shouting, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

Actually ~JAKE~, John P. O'Neill wasn't trying to save anyone. He was cutting steel beams with a hack saw on the 86th floor and one of his co-conspirators accidently dropped a grenade and it went off and blew them both out of the building. ___ Two more who didn't need to be gagged. Madonna told me all about it one night when we were staying at Ceasers Palace in Las Vegas and she went into a trance.

I do hope ~Paul M. Smith~ is correct, because he's actually one of the smartest, nost sensible and nicest people I have ever been associated with in any mannner. Buttt, even Albert Einstein was fooled on occasion.

Sure. The WTC's 'softened,' in such an even and timely (timed) manner that they magically fell straight down something you couldn't make happen at gun-point once, much less twice, no three times....(unless you had the resources of a super-power and time to plan)

Sure; With MAGIC thinking it is all real!

clovis, PaulMagillSmith; don't forget to toe the line on CD threads-they are well patrolled by a couple dozen PoliceMan Irregulars on the 'look-out' for opinions not their own....too funny.

Thanks, clovis, I'm glad to see someone here who took the time to do their homework. KEM can be excused for his ignorance (partially) because he doesn't have high-speed internet service, hence is in the dark, just as millions who must rely on a corporate/government controlled media for the truth about 911. Jakenewton, on the other hand, is either in complete denial of the mountains of evidence that has come to light that warrant intense scrutiny, or he's just a troll/shill for the government/or with a financial interest in hiding the public from finding the truth of 911. Notice how he ducked your, "Why the gag orders?" question. No one should be gagged when seeking information about this event, and anyone demanding such gag orders must have something to hide.

One thing I would like to know is why the link I just posted previously is now deleted?

Here it is again:

http://www.stoplying.ca/video/richard_gage_wtc7.htm

Now maybe we'll see if Common Dreams is censoring us.

Before you go any further claiming WTC7 wasn't a controlled demolition you had better view this video by architects & engineers:

http://www.stoplying.ca/video/richard_gage_wtc7.htm

Sorry you can't view videos, KEM, but before you deny from ignorance I would suggest you become informed by finding someone with a hi-speed connection.

~Jake~ do you mean everyone here at CD will hate me as much as they hate you? __ I'll be another Riverman??? Oh no.

I take it all back, I was joking. ~Clovis~ is right.

No, ~CLOVIS~, I didn't say the huge heaters, boilers, AC units or any and all of the other hardware which would be in the basements were going to, or did explode. I said it would be liken to an explosion, by the sounds projected, if they were crushed by massive floors of heavy falling concrete. There could have been some natural gas leak explosions, I'd bet there probably were. Never have I heard there were any emergency warnings, or explosions, prior to the first hijacked aircraft striking the tower. If that were true, it would be impossible for Bush, Cheney, or anyone, to hush up that many people.

P/S, glad you got off the unwarrented race remarks.

You'll pay Kem...

Well ~JAKE~, the factual case I reported here when I spilled the beans was as I wrote, A VERY BRIEF account. There were several thousand involved in the 9-11 conspirarcy.

They were ALL given "GAG" orders to not spill the beans. There were air traffic controllers from Boston south to Philadelphia and west to cleveland, Ohio, the hundreds of painters who hurridly painted the four radio controlled aircraft, the aircraft radio control operators, the hundreds of security personnel who worked for George Bushs' brother, the hundreds of people who staff the secret underground airport. The Dirty Dozen bikers gang and their supporting tattoed molls, who took care of bumping off the hijacked passengers and crews and then cutting up the four hijacked aircraft and shipping the remains to Diego Carcia. Lots of people and "gag orders". The entire police and fire departments of New York, including the Mayor and all of his girl friends were gagged. _____ They still are, no more BJ's.

"These points have not been rebutted, but simply denied"

Then please respond specifically to the links I posted.

"gag orders?"

Source?

These points have not been rebutted, but simply denied, as you and Kem Patrick keep doing. It's just your way of evading the questions. Such as: why the gag orders? What is there to hide?

"Rodriguez or the other WTC staff had to say about that underground damage, because by their account, it happened BEFORE the first plane hit, and certainly long before the buildings collapsed."

Read the link I posted. They reported "rumbling" sounds, while in the basement, "seconds before the planes hit". How would they even know that, if they were in the basement?

The problem is that you continue to repeat points that have been debunked years ago, such as this one, without acknowleging those rebuttals. Over and over agian.

Well, Kem Patrick, I guess you haven't heard or read anything Rodriguez or the other WTC staff had to say about that underground damage, because by their account, it happened BEFORE the first plane hit, and certainly long before the buildings collapsed. (As for the post-collision explosions, are you saying that air-conditioners and the like are going to explode some 60-70 floors below the point of impact?) But you didn't answer my question: Why on earth would these people make this stuff up? And there's lots, lots, more than simply what the janitors saw and felt and heard. There are already a number of cops and firemen violating their gag orders and talking about their experiences. I ask again: Why would they make it up? And why were they gagged? Why were the air traffic controllers of that day gagged? Why were the records destroyed? I go back to my original point: REOPEN the case. Throw hundreds of millions of dollars at it. Put all these people on the stand, including the guys in the situation rooms, including Dick Cheney and George Bush, this time seperately, this time under oath. We have nothing to lose. If your Pollyannish take on the horrible event should prove true, then so much the better. I couldn't wish for anything more.

You know, it does not require a nuclear scientist, or a ten year old fifth grader, to realize that if a massive concrete floor, weighing several hundred tons suddenly drops down onto another concrete floor below it, that heavy steel fire doors could easily blow off of their hinges and a room rocking explosion will be heard by any in the vicinity of a quarter mile distance.

I don't know where you're getting the "all-powerful DARKIES from abroad" comment from ___ ~CLOVIS~,___ I presume it's directly from you however, since it's the first time I ever heard it. Don't know why you are attepting to play some type of a race card with me, ___but whatever turns you on. ___It was of course Saudi Arabians primarily, who were among the 19 aircraft hijackers and I never refer to other humans as "darkies" or any other type of racial slur. Do you dispute that it was men from the mid-east region who hijacked the aircraft? ___ It wouldn't surprise me if you did.

Certainly ALL of the lower levels of the trade center were not undamaged and some of the several floors down there collapsed from excess weight from above and some fires did occurr down there and burned for days. Much of the lower levels were as they had been when the first aircraft stuck the building, totally undamaged. If high explosives had been set off there, that type of explosive damage would have been easily detectable by a second year fireman. It was primarily hundreds of firemen who first did any type of searching or investigations.

I'm sure there could easily have been electrical transformers and monstrous heating and air conditioning units, natural gas lines, etc, equipment and normal support units all large buildings facilities have located in lower levels. Those types of hardware items "exploded" when crushed or caught fire. As that indeed did happen in some areas of the lower levels. When massive and very heavy concrete floors collapse, "explosions" are also heard from such an occurrance.

I once heard a very loud explosion at my home one day, it rattled and shook the entire house. We ran out and a ten ton dump truck had dumped a load of six large boulders in my neighbors yard, to be used for landscape purposes. Imagine the noise if those boulders had dropped ten or twelve feet onto concrete, instead of only about six onto dirt.

As another mentioned on this thread, the buildings were full of trapped air and when over a hundred heavy concrete floors collapse, like they did that day, air pressures could easily throw people off of their feet, or have thown metal beams, furniture, etc, up and outward, or down and across for hundreds of feet. And that is what happened.

Perhaps you didn't notice on the films of the tragedy that day, the huge wave of AIR blown dirt, dust and litter that came billowing out and raced across the entire trade center area for well over a mile, when each of the Twin Tower buildings fell??? ___ Take another look, or perhaps you are as blind in sight as you are in common sense, reasoning, fairness and decency to others, in writing comments here. We disagree on this issue, and therefore I am somewhat less than intelligent or human to you it seems.

Well, Kem Patrick, I guess you've never heard of William Rodgriguez (chief custodian of WTC) who testified to the 911 Commission that there were indeed explosions on the lower levels, having been thrown off his feet by them (only to have his testimony excluded from the 911 commission "findings"); nor, I guess, have you heard of the testimony of other WTC staff who corroborated Rodriguez's testimony with such tidbits as metal doors being blown off their hinges three levels down, that sort of stuff... Guess they just made it up, eh? Just to get attention? For the thrill of feeding 'conspiracy theories' (because it's so much more reassuring to suspect that one's own government may be at least partly responsible in the mass murder of its own civilians, than to blame phantomatic all-powerful darkies from abroad...)?

"I'd never heard that Bushs' brother was head of security at the World Trade Center."

The head of security was John P. O'Neill who was killed that day when trying to rescue people at the South Tower.

Well, ding dong, looks as if class is back in session. Not surprised.

I'd never heard that Bushs' brother was head of security at the World Trade Center. I know one brother was the Governor of Florida and another owns the company that publishes the materials for the NO Child Left Behind program and makes billions from that scam.

Seems strange that a BUSH would have such a "lower class" job as "head of security", for even such a large operation as the WTC. If that is a fact, and it may have been, it is rather troubling, in view of the rest of the facts. Nevertheless, the overwhelming evidence proves the three buildings were not imploded.

Someone wrote here there were huge explosions in the basements of the buildings. Well, after the smoke cleared and any could enter the lower levels of that area, there was very little damage. There was one shot of a restaurant and bar, half full drink glasses were still sitting on tables and the bar undisturbed, it was almost like it was open for business, except for layers of concrete dust. It was errie that it seemed so much like entering a darkened undisturbed tomb down there. There were no explosions in the lower levels of the WTC.

" I must have missed your "explanation" of Silverstein's "explanation." "

I posted a link earlier that explains the whole thing.

"He said "pull IT","

And before trying to convince everyone that this meant "Lat's light this candle baby" maybe you should have thought about why he would admit to such a thing in the first place, and why to him "pull" would allegedly mean demolish in the vernacular of demolition people when he isn't in that business.

"he had committed a booboo when speaking to PBS."

He's just a Big Dummy, right?

What does any of this have to do with Britney Spears ' drinking problem, erratic behavior, and child custody problems?

Jim, that's all we have been asking for years now, "... a real investigation.", not some trumped up incomplete piece of crap by stooges of an administration that has proven in many more instances than just 911 it has absolutely no regard for law, morals, or 'doing the right thing'. Look how long they blocked even the formation of the commission. Then, initially Bush wanted to have Kissenger lead the inquiry, an internationally recognized war criminal, and someone who years ago suggested the top priority of US foreign policy should be de-populating the world by 2 billion people & especially in the middle-east to secure resources (oil) there. Talk about having the fox guard the hen house. Totally absurd & inappropriate. Another much overlooked motive was the day before 911 the article that came out about the Pentagon being unable to account for over $2 trillion in funds and/or war materials.

I feel the Bush administration should recuse themselves from an investigation, perhaps even turning it over to the people in the Hague, since it was a crime against humanity regardless of who did it.

USAn, While I agree partially with your statement,

"But that doesn't mean that that there may have not been conspiracies - the "let it happen" theory (and not knowing the scale of what would ensue) is certainly credible."

, I think you need to visit the PNAC papers if you are deluding yourself into thinking these people didn't know exactly what they were doing. Just follow the trillions that have been mis-appropriated, or outright stolen, and take a gander at our now raped constitution.

Like I said earlier, "All part of the plan." (and planned long ago just like the fact the invasion of Iraq was planned even before Bush took office). The motive was there (greed, lust for world domination, a perverted ideology), means (are you aware Bush's brother was head of WTC security until the day after 911?), and the opportunity was seized.

A transparent investigation in ALL that is needed!

Not really off the subject, KEM, because a lot of the same people (and agencies) were involved in all three.

It should be re-opened ~Paul~ and so should the JFK and MLK killings.

On that issue, I wonder if with the new technology with
film analysis, if it would be possible to detect if a bullet was coming from the front of Kennedy, fired from the grassy knoll area. There would be a shock wave of air in front of the bullet and that, or even a bullet might be detectable on the films of the incident.

It was proven that an expert marksman could fire off three accurate shots in less than seven seconds, with a rifle identical to the one Oswald had purchased. Oswald was an expert marksman without use of a scope. That rifle found in the book depository was scoped. Well, talk abut getting off the subect. ___ Sorry.

And don't give me that BushCo baloney about citing "national security reasons". That dog stopped hunting long ago.

For the large number of people posting on this link, and the huge number of Americans who smell rotten fish in regard to the incomplete politicized Official 911 Report, it is vital to re-open the investigation into 911...with full public scrutiny & disclosure.

What would possibly be a sane person's objection to this?

Kem, it's a good demonstration of showing absurdity by being absurd. The lesson is that while the official story is pretty extraordinary, and perhaps not perfect, there are *far* more mental convolutions required to believe any of the popular alternatives.

Now you're in big trouble Kem.

And who appointed ~CLOVIS~?? Another "self" maybe??

This is how it actually went down. I've been trying to hide the truth of it all. I'm ready to spill the beans. Tetty-Tatty is correct, 9-11 was set up a year in advance. This is a VERY brief summary of the full report.

First, men were hired as building security personnel, they actually were explosive experts who over a period of several months, secretly placed the necessary charges in all three buildings, waiting for the day when aircraft strikes would be used as a cover for the actual building implosions.

Meanwhile, four 757 aircraft were purchased by Blackwater personnel and rigged so they could be expertly flown by radio control. An Arabian night team of Osama bin Laden's friends were then hired to enter the United States on Visas and sent to American flight schools to learn how to oprate a flying 757 or 767 aricraft.

The four radio controlled aircraft were hidden in a secret underground airport, located near Camp David. After all was set, the 19 Arab hijackers took control of the four aircraft and immediatly those aircraft tail numbers were called in to painters at the secret airport. They then painted the hijacked aircraft companies paint schemes and tall numbers on the four radio controlled aircraft, then fired up the engines and by raio control, flew them out of the end of the two mile long tunnel.

One of the aircaft was set up so the wings could be ejected, a used space shuttle rocket moter was affixed to the tail, and a ton of high explosives was placed in the cargo bay. That aircraft, discarded its wings and was rammed into the Pentagon building at 2,000 miles an hour, all done by raido control.

The others three radio controlled jobs were set up so they could not be detected by radar or seen by ground control operators. Two hit the twin towers and the third accidently crashed in Pennsylvania after one of its engines fell off miles from the crash site, due to an inadverant high speed barrell roll. The blond female, radio control operator, was high on crack, supplied by Karl Roves boyfriend.

The four hijacked aircraft were flown to Wright Patterson Air Foirce base in Ohio and the passengers and crews were gassed and cremated in the ultra-secret hanger #18. The next day the 19 hijackers were aboard a jetliner, which flew family members of Osama bin Laden to Arabia. Very briefly, that's what actually happened.

G-eneral Strike

General Strik e

G eneral Strike

GeneralStrike

"Show me another high-rise structure like that that EVER collapsed from fire, so how could anyone claim it was 'normal'?"

*You* are the one misunderstanding the usage of the word "normal". It distinguishes from something not normal, like planted explosives.

Two other problems: The collapses were not due to fire alone, but rather fire *and* impact of airliners and debris from falling buildings. That, and the idea that since something never happened before it therefore can't or didn't happen, a very basic fallacy of logic.

tetti: Waiting for your explanation about how a crew of five men in less than a week plant the explosives and do so undetected.

"jakenewton and KEM PATRICK are the type of blind fools who would've believed Hitler's version of the 1933 Reichstag fire."

tetti_tatti is the type of blind fool who thinks he can call people names and use that as a substitute for a reasoned arguement. Call me any name you want, you ignore my argument by doing so. Basic Fallacy of Logic called "Red Herring", a dishonest attempt to change the subject.

jakenewton and KEM PATRICK are the type of blind fools who would've believed Hitler's version of the 1933 Reichstag fire. For them if it's approved by CNN and FOX, fine, everything else is conspiracy theories. Bush and Cheney love these kinds of idiots.

A 5 yo. can understand how not only the official version of the NY attacks is deeply flawed but also the official versions of the attack on the Pentagon (no fuselage can be seen on the ground) and the crash of flight 93 (with its engine found miles from the crash site, indicating it came apart before the plane fell) are pure fantasy.

"site has been debunked as propaganda quite awhile ago. "

Show us.

"workmen at the site warning passersby that the building is about to be brought down,"

They knew it was going to collapse from fire and damage from being hit by debris from the other tower.

"Silverstein himself admitted that they'd brought it down? "

No he did not, I already posted an explanation as to waht he really was saying. And bwsides, why in the world would anyone admit to such a thing?

Why do self-appointed "debunkers" of 911 "conspiracy theories" always avoid the simple fact that, for Building 7, at least, there is plenty of footage showing workmen at the site warning passersby that the building is about to be brought down, and that, despite very unconvincing retractions, Silverstein himself admitted that they'd brought it down? I'm willing to reserve judgment on the twin towers, which were, after all, hit by planes (why this would reduce them so quickly to dust is another matter, but never mind); on Building 7, however, the evidence is too patent to be ignored. What we need are people in office and law enforcement with the political will to pursue the matter in standard legal fashion and put all the witnesses on the stand, under oath, and re-examine all of the still available evidence. Put those same workers on the stand. Put Silverstein and Giuliani on the stand. Put all the firemen and policemen currently under gag orders (and why indeed are they under gag orders?) on the stand. While we're at it, let's get Sibel Edmunds out there too. But until more people in public office and in the MSM are willing to put their careers on the line for this, nothing will happen.

Lee Hamilton has been a lying right-wing ass-kisser since the Iran-Contra investigation days.
Why do you think he was picked for the 911 Whitewash Commission?

Obviously, JFK was killed by a lone, unaided gunman.

And 9-11 was a surprise attack from far far away....

But I am Safe Now. Because Homeland Security and Blackwater are protecting me.

And I did look at your link, Jake. Something that caught my eye in it is, "Here is more evidence they pulled the teams out waiting for a normal collapse from fire..."

Normal collapse from fire??? Show me another high-rise structure like that that EVER collapsed from fire, so how could anyone claim it was 'normal'?

I cannot recall when I ever agreed with ~Jakenewton~ but I sure do agee with him on this one. I do believe this is the only serious subject Paul and I have ever disagreed on.

Look, there were hundreds of firemen, police, fire investigators from all over the country there at the scene for weeks after the buildings collapsed, firemen are trained to detect explosive residue and none was detected even though later, some "experts" have said there was. There would have been loads of it, not heavy in weight but truck loads in volumn of explosive residue to bring down those three buildings.

And building number seven burned for hours, an uncontrollable blaze. Burning portions of the aricraft crashed into the top of building seven after going through the tower and set the diesel fuel tanks located there afire. And five men could set the charges in a few days? That is really ignorant talk. ___Very, very ignorant.___

It takes weeks of 'very precise' preperation by experts in the field of explosives to implode a TWENTY story building and specific beams must be partially torch cut, miles of wire and fuses set, etc, and then finally, exact TIMED exposions set off, after all has been prepared. After all of that, it sometimes does not go as planned. To do that to those three huge buildings would take months of preperation. Then when all prepared, undetected by anyone, someone hits the buildings with aircraft and messes up the explosive wiring and timed fuses. ___ Sorry, not possible.

There is no use discussing it here actually. I won't deny the buildings owner may have gained by the attacks. I won't deny some important people may have been aware of the pending attacks by SAUDI ARABIANS on 9-11, but those three buildings were not destroyed by explosives or by remote controlled 757s. The blow up pictures of the aircraft prove they were indeed the same aircraft that were hijacked, they even had the same scratches in the paint on the aircraft tail numbers.

Thank you ~JIM~. "Bang" goes the gavel. Case closed. Or as Riverman would have put it before he was committed. Ding, ding, ding,___ class is over.

Here are some facts:

Structural steel under normal weight bearing stress begins to soften and fail when it reaches only 1000 degrees.

Nothing needed to melt.

For all the Demolition believers who say "A fire has never brought down a steel building before!"

They need to answer this. How many of those buildings that did not come down from fire were first hit or damaged from Jet airliners goin around 500 MPH?

The answer is none of them.

You see you take an unique horrible event like 9/11 and say if it doesn't behave like any ordinary event it did not happen the way it did.

The 9/11 truth movement has become a cult based on lies and half truth and is a gift to Bush and those that let it happen because they looked the other way when it came to surveilling the Saudi' terrorists and Bush Family associates like the bin laden family and the Royal Saudi's who illegally set up the Bush's in Businesses.

Since the Demolition theory began, none of it can be proved even from the numerous videos.

The best way to protect a war Criminal like Bush is to make even more spectacular claims that are baseless but distract from the real inside job nature of the whole lead up to war and the racket of war.

All you know it seems is "9/11 was an inside job" and the simplicity of the ridiculous impossible demolition theory is all you need to understand because the science is beyond you, too complex to handle so after 5 years you think that nobody gets it...We have heard it all for 5 years now and we do get it ... paranoid Bull.

When you study http://www.debunking911.com/ You see how the cult leaders take things out of context and they eat it all up even when the crazy theories contradict each other. the cult buys it all.

The science is here http://www.debunking911.com/ so if you want to pick that apart go ahead.

Oh and the reason that the firemen knew that building 7 was gonna go was because after the first tower fell, they got everyone they could out of the 2nd tower and after 8 more hours of burning of building 7 they knew from that experience that to save lives they would "Pull" the firemen out.

I guess you are upset that they didn't tell the firemen "Stay in there and fight that fire because somebody thinks that fire will not bring down anything" Would more dead firemen have made you happy?

I would love a real investigation ...that means presenting proof not crazy theory.

...

Thanks, Jim,

Yours is the most clearly worded rebuttal so far, and to the 911 kooks you are more believable because you probably _aren't_ a civil engineer.

You are very correct that behind this "conspiracy theory" is a refusal to acknowlege that:

1. The anger generated by imperialist US and Israeli foreign policy; coupled with,

2. Fully predictable blowback from covert support of international criminals,

is all that is needed to explain the events of Sept. 11, 2001. The chickens did indeed come home to roost.

But that doesn't mean that that there may have not been conspiracies - the "let it happen" theory (and not knowing the scale of what would ensue) is certainly credible.

Yes, Jake, and that 'debunking' site has been debunked as propaganda quite awhile ago. Who pays YOUR salary?

LOLOLOLOL!!!!

Please explain to the group exactly how a crew of only five men could plant the extraoridinary amounts of explosives required and the associated wiring and equipment in less than a week. Please show your work vis a vis previous examples of implosions of other buildings the largest of which was puny compare to any of the WTC buildings.

LOL...

"How can someone in their right mind claim that "there was ZERO explosive residue" when all debris was removed to an undisclosed location and no tests were ever conducted by independents experts?"

Who claimed that?

"How can someone in their right mind claim that fire brought down 3 buildings when metal not only melts at a much higher temperature but would also just bend and not collapse in the spectacular way that it did?"

It wasn't fire alone, it involved also the impact og airplanes and/or building debris that stripped fire proofing.

Who in their right minds would think that metal that would "just bend" wouldn't also be weakened and prone to fail in it's load bearing application?

"A crew of only five men would be perfectly able to insert explosives in less than a week inside all 3 buildings."

LOLOLOLOL!!!!

How can someone in their right mind claim that "there was ZERO explosive residue" when all debris was removed to an undisclosed location and no tests were ever conducted by independents experts?

How can someone in their right mind claim that fire brought down 3 buildings when metal not only melts at a much higher temperature but would also just bend and not collapse in the spectacular way that it did?

A crew of only five men would be perfectly able to insert explosives in less than a week inside all 3 buildings. Why are people so limited and unimaginative? Blind fools, no wonder Bush and his Democratic co-conspirators can get away with crime after crime.

"the accounts of the fire crews on the scene "

"is on film saying "Let's pull it" (or something to that effect), "

Here:

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

Paul, everything you posted has been debunked already, *years* ago.

Jake,
Check the videos & the accounts of the fire crews on the scene and you will find they said the fire was under control, but Silverstein (the owner of all the WTC, who also made $1.5 Billion from the insurance policy he took out less than a year earlier) is on film saying "Let's pull it" (or something to that effect), a demolition term. Also, he knew beforehand the buildings would soon have to be demolished because of abspestos violations, something estimated to cost in the $10 billion plus range. Follow the money! Who has really benefitted from the estimated $3+ trillion the Iraq war will cost us? I didn't gain, nor did America, did you? Smell the coffee all you tin-foil-hat wearing nay-sayers. We've been had ...big time.

"No. 7 didn't have any fire in it to speak of "

Nonsense.

"How come it didn't affect the fall by tipping?"

Like in some cartoon? No.

The problem is thinking of these buildings as big solid things which is not quite true. They were 99% air, and assembled from millions of individual components.

KEM,

Building 2 was hit in the side. How come it didn't affect the fall by tipping? It was much weaker on one side!

No. 7 didn't have any fire in it to speak of and a huge corner was demolished. Still, it came down the same as the others.

I think people have made up their minds on this one!

Building seven burned for hours before it collapsed. There was thousands of gallons of diesel fuel in tanks on the roof of that building, for emergency generators use and it added to the fire when those tanks finally ruptured. Had building seven been struck by a huge airliner, I imagine it would have gone down much sooner.

"you will find the top so many floors actually exploded outward throwing debris weighing as much as 300 pounds outward hundreds of feet (note I said 'top' number of floors, not middle)"

This is explained in many places, the vectors of force are complex in such a collapse an it should be no surprise that some debris ejected horizontaly.

The equipment and wires for a building demolition are somewhat delicate. Don't you think flaying planes into buildings and the resultant fires from that might actually screw up those wires and equipment? And why should you needlessly complicate the mission by orders of magnitude by *both* flying the planes *and* wiring explosives? Simplicity, not complexity, is the key to any attack plans.

Google "911 debunking" and get answers to questions raised by Loose Change and similar.

It didn't post on my screen Paul and
it's now 9.14 your time.

Well the 4:37 (repeat) did post as 8:43, but only after the 8:51 complaint. Can you see it KEM?

I posted a post on 4:37, it didn't immediately post (but my post at 4:41 did immediately). My friend KEM says he can't find the 4:37 post on his screen, but I can see it on mine. I just copied, pasted, and posted the 4:37 again, but it won't post despite nothing lewd in it. Let's see if this one does...

But KEM, once you get high-speed & can watch numerous videos about the collapse you will find the top so many floors actually exploded outward throwing debris weighing as much as 300 pounds outward hundreds of feet (note I said 'top' number of floors, not middle)

MIKEPETERS, If a stable high rise floor, suddenly had the massive additional weight of several other concrete floors drop onto it, that floor will collapse,___ straight down, not being designed to hold that much weight. The next floor below it will do the same thing, with even more weight on it and so on to the bottom floor. The floors above the fires would also collape in an exploding manner due to the total failure of the structure's main frame as the floors below began to collapse. It would all fall as fast as dropping a bowling ball from the top of the buildings, straight down.
The upper floors, above where the aircraft struck actually didn't go "straight down", there was some tilting there.

Here's a video I tried to recommend that never made it on to this site. Let's try it again with some variety.

Check it out if you can: Z=E=I=T=G=E=I=S=T.

Glenn Greenwald says:

"Yesterday, I contacted Lee Hamilton, the 9/11 Commission Vice Chairman, to ask him whether the Commission was ever told about Mukasey's alleged Afghan Terrorist 9/11-planning telephone calls and/or the Bush administration's failure/inability to eavesdrop on such calls. Hamilton refused to comment, .... When asked if he would comment today or whenever he had time, he said he was not going to comment on this ever, since he had not read Mukasey's speech. Calls to 9/11 Executive Director Philip Zelikow seeking comment were not returned and 9/11 Commission Chairman Tom Kean could not yet be reached."

Guilt of complicity by implication! And the implication is rock solid.

"It's unacceptable for Hamilton to refuse to comment on Mukasey's claims."

Definitely!

"One of two things almost certainly happened here, each of which is of great importance. Either Mukasey is lying ... Or, Mukasey has just revealed the most damning fact yet about the Bush's administration's ability and failure to have prevented the attacks ..."

Why "either-or"? TRY [BOTH]; Mukasey's lying, and the Bush adm. didn't only fail to prevent the attacks, but made sure to not prevent the attacks most surely orchestrated by 'enemies within', including in this so-called Bush administration. Cheney's the one who ordered NORAD stand-down! Cheney's often enough overrided Bush Jr; .... It does not have to be an 'either-or' matter; it can be [both]. And that's what we most likely have. [Most likely] both.

See the articles linked in my above post, first one anyway. They provide some important information that Gleen Greenwald didn't specify, while inherently being strongly supportive of his article; "just" that there's more ... detail.

Want to try to catch and stop criminals? Then learn to think as they do; not to do as they do, but to understand their "plays". If you don't, then you will not be successful. Whatever a topic is, if we wish to be competent about it, then we better know enough about it, first.

Being naive is to be outgrown. It's more than due time for the USA to WAKE UP to reality.

YES, after completing Greenwald's article, definitely also see the articles I linked to further above. His article is good and very welcome, especially for CD, which seems to have treated 9-11 like a plague topic; but the other articles provide links for critical details that Greenwald doesn't even really leave a serious hint about. The whole set of these articles is bookmarked by me. For CD, I guess we couldn't expect stronger than what Greenwald says; but it's a good article anyway.

USAn; if the 'hit' stories melted and "softened" they would have 'slid,' off the unmelted lower stories,-through which they instead fell in less than ten seconds: appx free fall speed. This in spite of the fact that the lower stories were untouched by heat and were not structurally degraded....???

Any thoughts on that?

And oh yeah; you referred to yourselves as "we" what group is "we" "USAn?"

How often do we have to explain to that the steel doesn't have to melt, it only has to soften. The heat of a fire is a function of the size of the fire and the oxygen supply. Burning kerosene, or burning wood or anything else, along with a good draft of air, heats uninsulated steel to bright orange and taffy-consistency very easily. And large fires get very hot, as anyone who has ever been within 100 meters of a full-size wood-frame house on fire

WTC 7 was burning in an out of control fire also. Supposedly the heat from it ws almost unberable without fire gear a block away.

But, in fact, many common materials like coal or charcoal with a sufficently strong air supply, can melt steel to liquid, how do you think a blast furnace works?

But the one thing that most definitely DOES NOT melt steel is high explosives, or the "thermite" that the conspiracy people posit. such things can cut steel, or burn through it, but not melt it.

Well, my prior post did post, but it's got 'awaiting moderation' status...WTF. Why in the world should there be gatekeepers on a 'progressive' site at all except for innappropriate lewd threatening vulgar comments (which mine was not)? CD...get a grip...whose side are you on?

Something fishy is going on here, or so many people are trying to post the CD server is clogged up and working exceedingly slowly, but my last post wouldn't post. This is a test to see if this one does.

" annabelle April 3rd, 2008 11:32 am

Ask anyone at all in this administration ... in other words we have an entire administration with a dementia condition."

DEMENTED, psychopathic, 'blood cult', ... YES; but apparently suffering from [frequent] (frequently "convenient") [amnesia] too. They are always "forgetting" things MOST people would not forget; and are always forgetting about their psychopathic lust for power and riches. And they are what, the presidency?! Oh, yuck; damn!

We're overridden by amnesiacs who are demented and psychopathic! And 'dement' definitely and very obviously applies. It might be "nicer" if they weren't as strongly obvious as they are.

No surprises for me since 2000, and I despised the prior war-criminal administrations too. Nothing 'Rolaids' can take care of. The [hijacking] of the presidency in 2000 already forebode ... bad. After all, only fools could expect good from such a despotic act. It was despotic, and despotism is all we've had since; although also plenty before, as Howard Zinn's article posted here this week gives description(s) for.

We have a "wee bit" of a ... huge problem.

jakenewton; Hello, did you see the documentary Loose Change? Certainly it is not pure science, but relative to the absolute lack of scientific inquiry in the 9-11 commission it has attained relevance for some.

Six months ago I thought a conspiracy was ridiculous. I was wrong.

This cracks open and the snakes crawl out, it will be on.

May Vipers crawl into Cheney/Bush's love nest.

Burning jet fuel will NOT melt steel. A very hot jet fuel and aircraft magnesium fire however, will cause steel beams to weaken and bend out of shape. Unless the fire is controlled, eventually the structures main support beams will bend enough to allow the floors they support to fall straight down, depending upon the structural design of the building.

Once that occurs with any floor, like dominos, the added weight which the floor it fell onto will fall and within seconds the massive weight will magnify and continue to fall ___ straight down.

If the Twin Towers were imploded with explosive charges, there would have been a five ton truck load of explosive residue, charges and the necessary materials to do such a job. Hundreds of inspectors were presnt there for weeks after the disater, not one single speck of evidence of explosives were found by anyone. Even most firemen are well trained to know what explosive residue is.

To insure a bulding falls straight down from imploding explosives, requires VERY technical torch cutting of hundreds of specific steel support beams, from the top to the bottom of the structure. Those three buildings were not imploded with explosive charges, they fell straight down, bam, boom, bam, from the result of massive uncontrolled fires, which burned for a long time before the floors began to fall and also due to the engineering method which was designed to support the floors.

The explosions heard by witnesses were from the collapsing floors. You dump a huge concrete slab ten or twelve feet onto another concrete slab and you will hear an explosion, especially with metal filing cabinets, etc, mashed in between them.

Now Cheney, Bush and others, MAY have been aware of the Arabian's plot to hijack the aircraft and do the damage they did, I never heard any evidencve of that however, but those buildings were definently NOT imploded with explosives. There was ZERO explosive residue.

"Which then falls at perfect free-fall speed perfectly into it's own footprint."

Neither of which is true, unless you can show it to be so.

9/11 was an inside job

Hey, Jake, I must have missed your "explanation" of Silverstein's "explanation." If it's the same one his lackeys gave--i.e., that he meant "to pull" the firemen out of the building--it won't wash and never has. He said "pull IT", and the fact that Silverstein and co. felt the need to "clarify" (that is, retract) in this manner shows that they clearly knew he had committed a booboo when speaking to PBS. And to say that when the workmen say "See that building? It's coming down", it's because they know the "fire damage" has so weakened it that it could only collapse, is as lame as the Silverstein excuse. As if one could predict the moment a building is going to fall when it's on fire! Did you see that palace in Italy that caught fire today? The blaze certainly looked a lot worse than the fires in WTC 7. That building was a lot smaller, too, a lot older (with no steel-reinforced concrete, that is), and it didn't fall? Put 'em all on the stand, I say!

I've stated my case here and it's remains intact for all to read. That's why I'm here.

I've been censored for reasons that made no sense and seemed odd. But I've always been able to say what I think one way or another.

If you organize petitions here, you may be setting them up for a legal fight with Homeland Security. Heck these people could be Homeland Security! It would not matter to me.

I just hope CD is available to everyone on the Internet.

canardtahiti; I say to you sir; have a really excellent day. Sorry about the invective.

Hope the Windy City ain't too windy.

Thanks to CD. F* our govt.-long live freedom, wherever she may be hiding.

mikepeters (troll):

I am French by marriage. Born and raised in Chicago.

Two uncles on Omaha? Fine...did they perchance encounter my FOUR uncles as they piloted bombers over Germany, drove troop transports onto Pacific beaches, liberated the very first concentration camp in Germany, and (along with my Dad in the First Marine Americal Division), led first waves onto Guadalcanal, Guam, Bouganville and Iwo?

Cheneybush sociopaths did 911 and the whole world knows this...