The dems could be winning 20-0 in the bottom of the ninth, but usually find a way to lose the game.

This topic demands a well known variation on a cliche: snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. It would appear as if the "circular firing squad" behavior that has bedeviled Democrats in the past has come back as Obama has had the "temerity" to prevent Clinton's coronation.

I've been listening to a lot of repugs talking about how Clinton and Obama handing the race to McCain, and destroying the party. Guy on Meet The Press was talking about it this morning when it hit me - if these two go at it until July, as this guy was saying they probably will, that cuts a huge chunk out of the time the swiftboaters, faux news, limpbuger and all the rest will have to tear the winner to shreds before November.

Won't matter though. I think the fix is already in for Iran/martial law/continuation of what has been wrought thus far.

It's only a gain because most voters don't consider issues and policy proposals when voting for a president. Only about 10 percent vote based on these two most important criteria, the rest preferring to base their choice for what new policies we should adopt based on perceived personal qualities.

The Dems will have the advantage because they have more money to spending on perceived personality quality generating commercials in the fall.

If the voters did decide on issues alone, McCain would be far behind against any Democrat.

Of course the only reason Obama and Clinton are still in the hunt is because of their perceived personal qualities. The public doesn't favor, for example, either of their health care plans, preferring instead the single payer plan advanced by Nader, Kucinich and McKinney.

Obama was quoted as saying he thinks Clinton has the right to stay in the race - and she does. While I'd love to see Clinton drop out, I think (hope) the Dems can keep it together even with the two candidates going at each other - as long as the economy is down and the cost of oil/gas are up.

But hey, don't worry - if the Dems blow another opportunity, there's always Ralph Nader to blame.

talk about the theater of the absurd, lieberman prancing around the middle east w/ lindsey graham, whispering in the ear of j mccain. wasn't lieberman al gore's prospective VP ? WTF? the moment lieberman was chosen at the convention, i decided to vote for nader. it took less than 5 minutes to make that decision. if obama makes a similar gaff in august, i will seriously consider a vote for mckinney.

clinton does not deserve a 3rd term and it's disturbing that al gore, jimmy carter and john edwards are hiding behind the curtains timidly avoiding confrontation w/ the father figure of the party (b clinton), waiting offstage until the convention as mccain cuts the dem's lead in the polls.

politico says clinton has about a 5% chance of getting the nomination, why are the party elders (carter/gore) and the charismatics of the party (edwards) holding out? to what ends....

wilmoor March 30th, 2008 11:25 am

good point, "the fix is already in for Iran/martial law/continuation of what has been wrought thus far" any suggestions on how to plan a revolution in USA?

You all assume that we will have an election in November.
Hoa binh

"Republicans are praying Clinton will defeat Obama"

I would disagree with the above. At this point because of the unresolved Wright fiasco, I think they would much rather run against Senator Obama.

The longer he waits to answer the real question's everyone wants an answer to, the worse it gets.

Why did he not challange the Reverend about his bigotry, racism and hate? Why did he say at first he had not heard him say these things and in the speech admit he had? Why did he stay in a church whose congregation apparently supported racism, hate and bigotry? Why did he continue to expose his children to it?

The lame excuse of it's about race or these were just a few cherry picked sound bites, or it was taken out of context, or he grew up when it was a bad time won't wash.

The real question is about Senator Obama's judgement and why he hasn't answered the above question's?

Just imagine what the Republican's can do with this.

"If Clinton wins nomination through backroom deals by super delegates,"

BTW - I started posting about this possibility in January. 2 months ago.

What a difference the last 2 months could have been, if there only was a united Democratic party.
If only Mrs. Clinton could behave as a hero would and end her candidacy for the greater good of her party, country and world.

A united Democratic party could stand up to the 2 old dynamic dodos in the White House.
A united Democratic party could stop the next war before it happens and ensure that an election takes place in November.

The Dems need to unite but everything they do is about dividing, and that makes McCain's election more likely.

Since 1492 -- Any election (selection, or rejection) ALWAYS occurs first within one's own MIND.

My election is sacrosanct, and untouched by DIEBOLDIC machinations and corruptions.

Please do consider where your own election is occurring. THINK ABOUT IT, NOW.

Namaste

I don't see what is difficult for Obama-worshipers and the MSM to understand.

Does Politics of 'Change' and 'Hope' demand the disenfranchisement of Democrat voters at the risk of nominating a Democrat candidate that only progressives and black voters will support?

A race till June with several more debates between Obama and Hillary will only help Democrats win in November as more of the general population will be focusing on the race by then and learning about the differences between Democrat and Republican policies - Give them Hell Hillary!

What is the Obama/Axelrod hope&smear campaign afraid of?
THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!

I suspect that the best thing progressives can do no matter
who ends up a the Democratic nominee is will be to work
to elect and to re-elect more pro-peace Senators and
Congresspeople to both houses. I suggest looking
at the candidates supported by groups such as the Council
for a Livable World. the National Committee for a Effective
Congress, and others. We may well have a President McCain
so we need a stronger House and Senate to offset him. we need to hold the Senate and Congressional members feet to
the fire on peace and other issues.

This isn't a spat, but a dirty low down scorched earth strategy on the part of Hilary Rodham "1000 year war" Klanton. If she succeeds the human race loses.

i still think the dems will win the white house in november,actually it's good for the democratic primary to be in the news all the time........because the democrats WILL UNITE by june 2008....PLENTY OF TIME TO DEFEAT MCCAIN

Hilary Rodham "1000 year war" Splintum is proving to be nothing short of "serial bitch repugnican" masquerading as a dimocrat...

Bush bombs Iran in late October, McCain wins.
Doesnt matter who the Democrats have, although Obama is the better candidate--he offers a more defined alternative than Clinton.
After all--Clinton said both she and McCain were better leaders than Obama.

And they call Nader a traitor?

She wants Obama to lose so she can try again in 2012.

Thomas More's Concerns prompt me to repeat a comment from David Michael Green's article the other day, a bit reworked:

Speaking as a member of the control group who isn't quite won over by Obama, i.e. not an Obamaniac, zealot, cultist, etc.– it's obvious that his intellect and character is of a far higher caliber than the competition's.

And it's pathetically obvious to even a modestly thoughtful and discerning person that the Wright kerfuffle is a humbug. Oh, it is certainly the case that some small and simple-minded people are sincerely outraged, offended, or otherwise legitimately troubled by Wright's counter-jingo rhetorical style. Heaven forfend that I begrudge anyone's right to throw themselves into a tizzy of righteous protest about that awful, awful preacher man.

That said, it's clearly a shuck. It's one of those canards that is readily caught up by the permanent wingnut underclass, hovering at around 25% of the population. And Wright's thoughts and words can be trimmed to a pejorative bite size perfect to feed bourgeois and middle-class outrage, with a low threshold for self-inflating groupthink.

So it is indeed the case that the anti-Obama forces will beat the drum to keep this puerile and bogus issue going.

However, I do think that Obama's exceptional talent for oratory will allow him to express what is ultimately the proper response– kiss my ass– in a manner beyond reproach. Unlike Kerry-- who disdained the sparks struck by the swiftboaters until he actually burst into flame and was consumed-- Obama seems very much on his toes, and nimbler than his predecessor.

I didn't think that Amerikans were stupid enough to vote for a brain damaged frat boy like Dumbyuh, but I was dead wrong. After witnessing the CO caucus go for Obama, and the huge crowds attending that event, it gives me some hope for November, but not too much. McSame is a near clone of Dumbyuh with an additional ~30 years of the aging process added on. He is an evil version of Grandpa Simpson.

"Don't change dicks in the middle of a screw! Vote for Nixon in '72!" Well it worked swimmingly that time.

NEVER FORGET...
...that part of Hillary's "presidential coat-tail" experience included the creation of EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION..(AKA sending persumably innocent people to SYRIA for torture and/or murder INCLUDING AMERICAN CITIZENS)

THAT ALONE MAKES HER UNSUTITABLE FOR THE OFFICE, IMHO

In spite of am extremely discredited Republican president, depression-like economy and an unpopular war, the Democrats may still pull off the seemingly impossible; lose the election to the Republicans. Never underestimate the ability of Democrats to pull defeat out of the jaws of victory.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032908D.shtml:

"a recent Gallup poll, in which 28 percent of Clinton's Democratic supporters said they would vote for McCain if Obama is the party's nominee. Nineteen percent of Obama's supporters said they would vote for McCain if Clinton gets the nod."

This news clearly explains why Obama loses to McCain by a bigger margin than Hillary loses to McCain at electoral-vote.com It seems there are more anybody-but-Obama voters in the Hillary camp than there are anybody-but-Hillary in the Obama camp.

The poll does not clearly explain why McCain wins against either contender because we don't know what percent of Republicans are voting Democrat or not voting at all on account of McCain being the nominee.

If America supports McCain, then America deserves what they voted for.

Shame on you Eric - I thought you could think for yourself, but you've been swept by the avalanche of hysteria into a psychodrama which has absolutely no connection with reality. America has gone mad, especially the Dems, and they're going to sweep us all to disaster.

Democrats are making their usual foolish mistakes. Clinton is the better candidate as far as winning in the fall. If you look at where they get their votes, Clinton can win in the most important states that Democrats have to win in the fall; Obama could lose a few of those states. He might gain some states that are small, but since we still have the awful electoral college, those gains won't offset the losses in larger states. Just look at the voter information in Texas and Ohio - Obama is not appealing enough to the swing voters!!

I'm an independent-progressive who usually votes outside the two-party (sic) system. I could be persuaded by Clinton, but not by Obama - she has vision & understands a President needs to have big ideas; he is passive, and uses surface charm, which is not enough - he is on record as saying he doesn't get too excited by ANYTHING. This is important to me. I want a passionate leader.

I actually think all 3 remaing mainstream "contestants" are very close on foreign policy when one looks at their long-term objectives:
1. They all want to turn Iraq from occupation state to a client state.
2. They all want Iraq to be a demi-(half) democratic state like Turkey or Egypt
3. They all want to continue putting pressure on Iran (through embargo, the navy, the airfore and keeping troops in Afghanistan and to varying degrees in Iraq).
The means for achieving these objectives may vary for each of the 3, but I believe Margolis overstates their differences in this article.

Great rebuttal, Little Brother. The Wright flap will be gist for the racists' mill but more and more white Americans are gaining the ability to see through these attacks and can understand the context. When Rev. Wright came to his church 30+ years ago, it was a mostly a failing white congregation in a mostly white denomination. In the large cities the changing neighborhoods chased many white churches out to the suburbs, but some stayed put and became reflective of their neighborhoods. Trinity UCC is a great example of a congregation dedicated to living out a Christen mission, making an impact on the community which surrounds it.

Among all of the main line denominations there are examples of inter-city churches who represent much progress in integrating the larger church. Of course, racists will misrepresent Rev. Wright, and Mr. Obama, but when they do their own racism becomes all too obvious. Kudos to you for debunking T. More's tirade.

Does anyone remember the WILLIE LOGAN TRAGEDY OF 1998 IN FLORIDA? Yes, the white male KKKonservative Democrat Buzz Ritchie forced the ouster of a pro-populist progressive Willie Logan out of leadership in the FL House and secretly replacing him with a white female "moderate" DLCer Ann McKenzie. This stirred up ANGER in the black community in FL and Democrats lost even more that year and Jeb Bush SUPER-SMASHED Buddy Mckay in Nov 98. If this happens, GET READY FOR JOHN MCCAIN TO WIN ALL 50 STATES ! YOU'VE BEEN WARNED !!

The above forecast of the 2008 presidential race is pretty much on target if Hilary Rodham Klanton is the "Democratic" standard bearer, and I say that as someone who correctly predicted the outcome of the 1992 presidential race just after the Democrats lost the 1988 race. I even go the margin right as well as the policy issues that would do it. Of course, I "just a good old boy" from the US South.

If you love fascism and a 1000 year war, vote for Klanton, and she will hand it over to Johnny McCain on a silver platter.

McCain's 20+ years of profiting from the sale of hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of individual beers via marriage to Cindy Hensley McCain's inherited "family" beer distributorship, Hensley & Company (Phoenix) will be an ABSOLUTE negative trump card over Obama's 20 years in the Trinity Church of Christ listening to Pastor Wright's preaching.

There is nothing for liberals to fear about the general election if Obama is on top of the Democratic ticket. There is almost guaranteed loss to fear with Hillary as nominee. Rush Limbaugh knows this. Why do not both Hispanics everywhere and the blue collar white men of the Midwest know this? Are these groups listening to dumb
leadership?

The Obama-Clinton dustup is a good argument for European-style proportional representation in our legislative bodies. Then progressives could have a true progressive party, and the DLC centrists could have theirs. As long as we have winner-take-all, the elections will always boil down to only two parties with a serious shot at winning, leaving everyone to fight - as Democrats are now - over what values those two parties will represent. Adopt proportional representation and every group will have some voice in the legislature, which is where these debates belong, not in party primaries.

The following are the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder, as well as a good description of Hillary Rodham Clinton:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Whatever drama playing out between the Democratic candidates, the only reason the Republicans have ANY chance of a victory is because the press in this country is utterly corrupt. They will insist on creating competition where none exists.

Senators Clinton, Obama and McCain all want to run a country. One for the East Coast, one for the West Coast and one for Jesusland in the middle. The Roman Empire had a three way split at the top. So do the Roman Catholics. Why not America?

toebot, you've nailed it. all one can add is that the majority of americans believe what the press shows them or tells them. no questions asked.

daniel david, many hispanics in this country still have roots in their homeland just south of us. within these roots is the most amazing and incredible sense of family, a sense that most gringos can only dream of. within that family is a very strong social hierarchy, quietly and beautifully controlled, generally, by a single entity, whether it be father or mother or grandfather or grandmother. rest assured that this person carries a lot of weight, and calls the shots. clinton, the predator that she is, recognized this early on, thus her strong showing in the large hispanic communities within texas.

as for the midwest's blue collars, and white collars as well, race continues to be a very strong social divider.

Toe Bot__You are exactly right, the Republican controlled press figured this black--woman competition out long ago and will keep it alive for their own purposes.

The Dems have fallen into the Repugs trap again and may well lose because of it. They are doing all they can to poison the race for Clinton and many Dems are taking the bait. You can be sure they are more worried about facing Hillary or they would not be undermining her at every opportunity.

After they dispose of Clinton, look for a swiftboating of Obama that may well work for them as it did in 2004.

AlexLawyer

Absolutely spot-on correct...

Wilmoor said

'good point, "the fix is already in for Iran/martial law/continuation of what has been wrought thus far" any suggestions on how to plan a revolution in USA?'

Yes, I have a couple of ideas...

One, to have an effective 'alternate media' you must advertise.
Everywhere and anywhere. CD is by no means alternate, but could be used as a stepping stone to advertise other sites. Likewise, no demonstration should be complete without LOTS of banners advertising alternate media sites. (Why do you think your goverment would love to control the internet?)

Two, people power. Drawing partially from the success of the protest movements in the sixties and early seventies, the people of Eastern Europe threw off the shackles of Russian domination by showing up. Don't know if you were around back then, but millions of people took to the streets in 1989 in East Germany, saying basically, 'Enough! We want freedom and we want it now!' Within a month the wall came down. Because they showed up in the millions. Day after day. You can't argue with that level of popular support; no police or army in the world is going to stand in front of several million people and dictate terms - they would be crushed by the weight of the people behind the vanguard and they know it. Many of those people you call pigs also harbour dreams of democracy and an affordable life. They are us. Everybody wants affordable health care and a decent education for their children. Nobody wants to send their child off to be the last to die in an unwinnable war which benifits only the rich. You Americans are right on the brink of disaster. Just do it! Please do it, people all over the world will stand up with you and America will once again be a world leader. Don't you know the whole world is watching and hoping for you?

ouch! AlexLawyer - you nailed it!

Try posting that on DU or any of the other disinfo infested sites and see how quick you get the boot.

I have followed the so-called debates and the patterns of both parties and can only conclude that either the Democrats have planned their activities deliberately in order to allow the Republicans to extend their power in the future, or they are so ignorant and stupid that they are unable to understand the results of them In either case, I see no reason to waste my vote on either party. The media does much to reinforce this position - but then, the media has backed McCain/Bush from the start.

This is amazing. The Democrats set the rules by which the primary season can proceed and presumably care about the people's votes. Then, in mid stream, they want to shut down the Democratic process by telling Hillary to GET OUT of the race and denying those voters in states who have yet to vote to cast their ballots. Why would they matter eh? Let the friggin' people vote. It's amazing to see Obama and his supporters call Hillary a spoiler. It's amazing to see Hillary and her supporters call Obama a spoiler. What goes around comes around, no?

'Oh, it is certainly the case that some small and simple-minded people are sincerely outraged, offended, or otherwise legitimately troubled by Wright's counter-jingo rhetorical style. Heaven forfend that I begrudge anyone's right to throw themselves into a tizzy of righteous protest about that awful, awful preacher man.'

Being the small, simple minded person I am I'm sure you'll gtant me forgiveness for not recognizing that the words, phrases, copnspiracy theories and hate filled sermons I viewed ( and there are a lot, not just a few sound bites, though you won't be able to see them...they no longer sell them)I didn't recognize it as as a counter-jingo rhetorical style.

Counter-jingo rhetorical style. Horsefeathers.

Any adult can recognize racism, bigotry and hatred for America when they see it. There is no question about what Wright is. And please, please no silly "he's a child of his era" excuse. I give no one a pass for racism, bigotry or contempt for the country that gives them what they have, no matter their color or gender.

For all that is wrong with our country (and there's a bunch), I'd challange anyone to name a better country. Or one that allows Wright to espouse his views with impunity.

Trot on over to Burma or Tibet or fill in the blank and see what happens to you if you start the same counter-jingo rhetorical style.

Of course neither Democrat can win, because 45% of the party will not vote for Clinton and 45% will not vote for Obama. And when McCain is elected, they'll have the perfect scapegoats to blame. They won't have to look at themselves, won't have to change, and the Democratic Party will lose the 2012 election too.

That's the beauty of the two-party system; we always have to support it in the present to stave off imminent crises. And you have to give your team wide leeway to do all sorts of evil.

God damn America.

I hope McCain wins. That way I have the perfect excuse to move to another country in a hurry, plus is about time for the Empire to fall. And McCain for sure will accelerate the process.

Thomas,
You need to travel to Northern Europe

This business of trying to get Hillary to quit the campaign before the primary season is over is just boys being boys; if Hillary had been Hillard, this wouldn't be happening, because it ain't over till its over! The boys just can't stand that a girl is doing so well and refuses to back down from their insane demands. All this campaigning is not hurting anyone; what is happening, is that the Dems are getting their candidates well familiarized with the voting public; by the time the general election comes about in the fall 2008, everyone (except those with their heads in a hole somewhere), will know about the candidates and their stands on the issues. The other issue, is that the primaries to come, should have more than one candidate to choose from and if I were a voter in those states, I would resent all this effort to get Hillary to quit. I am entitled to vote for the candidate of my choice; no choice, no support the dems in the fall.
A little bickering is good for the soul-lets everyone have their say, find common ground, common tactics and the ambition and drive to move forward. Screw all the effort to limit debate and campaigning - that's facism. The naysayers be damned - they are cowards and give chicken little a bad name. McCain and his warmongering will have a hard road to hoe and I for one will be ready. Hillary or not.

Not true, Rockerbabe. Look at John Edwards. I wish he could have held out but he didn't have the votes needed. Now Hillary Clinton needs to realize the same. Am I the only one who remembers polls taken prior to Hillary deciding to run where a solid 50% of those polled stated the would absolutely NEVER vote for Hillary come hell or high water? At best, she has only had 40% of the democrats. Why does she waste time and money running in a race she will never win? Personally, I know many who will cross party lines in order not to vote for her. Hillary needs to learn that a lady knows when to leave a party.

soma90405: Hillary is a lady, but, she like to many other ladies in this day and age, have decided that not everyone, especially the boys, gets to make decisions for us. We choose when and where and under what circumstances to leave - not those whose preference is for a less messy, less inclusive and one-sided race. It ain't over, till it's over! Polls mean little in this primary race and everyone knows it. There are many who will never vote for Hillary and just as many who will never vote for Barack. So who goes? The voters in the upcoming primary races will make that decision, not you and not me and definitely not the naysayers and the boys in the media.

Obama, Clinton. The lies that this will enable McCain to be elected is complete BS spread by Obama or by the party bosses. McCain will have one or tweo serious indeie challengers on the right. EWven so, like Dole, he can never be elected.

So this whole line of spin by the author is disgusting tryong to force Clinton out.
\
What, the Obama crew took a crash course with ther CIA?

Rockerbabe - you can't possibly speaking of Hillary Clinton particularly where polls are concerned. Hillary and Bill are chameleons who live and die by polls. They have no moral fiber and not a backbone between the two, being able to change their stripes with a snap. Hillary is a died in the wool liar as she recently proved with the story of being under gunfire in Kosovo.

When Hillary was considering running, all I could think was do we want to live with all the lies again, the never taking responsibility for any screw ups tending to prefer younger staffers falling on their swords to get them out of the many messes created by the Clintons and most often Hillary? Hillary Clinton has not one shred of personal integrity which is not what most Americans want in a president. A woman would be great as president just not that one.

The only chance to have avoided an Iran attack/Bin Laden scare just prior to the Presidential Election, thereby assuring a McCain victory was for the Democrats to have kept their promises to commence Impeachment hearings. Nancy Pelosi and John Conyers betrayed the mid-term election voters on this critical issue. Why?

The standard mantra that "we don't have the votes" is patent nonsense. The Impreachment proceedings themselves are an investigational process, which in the case of Cheney/Bush under subpoena and oath, would have snowballed into a large majority for impeachment.

The only reasons that one can reasonably imagine for Pelosi suddenly and summarily "taking impeachment off the table" are 1) She made a behind the scenes treacherous deal with Bush/Cheney, or 2) She and the establishment Democrats, especially the DNC elite, believed that all they had to do is coast, making symbolic but meaningless gestures against Bush, and Hillary would be a shoo-in for the White House.

What a terrible mistake!